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Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
This idea is absolutely mormonic!
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
Tourism? In Utah?
Say what?!?!?
Ok...this is really getting scary. Why should I have to swipe my drivers license (remenber, it was given as proof of driving certification, tax..etc) to get a drink? And why the hell should anyone know when I go to a bar (or anywhere else for that matter)?
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you. Or even with private insurance, I'm sure they'll get ahold of this sooner or later.
Amd..once the populace accepts swiping for bar entry...well, I'm sure they won't mind swiping for entry into drug stores, that would help gather your meds usage. How about grocery store for purchases, that way we can track your unhealthy eating habits.
And then of course...no need for EZPass...your nifty new drivers license will have RFID...so, that will make it easier for you....we can track your travels.
Ok, some of this sound far fetched? It might not be....the govt. lawnakers start small enough, but, pretty much every law passed has been expanded or abused.
In discussions yesterday, I recalled that when they first started passing seatbelt laws, they stated emphatically that the cops could NOT pull you over for not wearing one, but, if they pulled you over for something else, like running a stop sign, and saw you weren't wearing one....they could cite you.
Well, a few years later, once that was agreeable....they changed it, to being able to pull you over if they see you without one.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I like shaved pussy.
I believe Utah requires a permit for that too.
I saw an amusing poll on ESPN about Michael Phelps, who recently admitted to using pot.
Across the country about 75%-90% said they thought no less of the best swimmer in the world for using a recreational drug.
Except in Utah where almost 50% said they thought less of him. They are very detached from the mainstream.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
I'm no fan of needles, but I'm also afraid of bullets.
Oh, and death itself.
You mean this site? Overall, murders are very rare.
USA: 5/100,000 people
Utah: 2/100,000 people
Iowa: 1/100,000 people
Iowa has more people than Utah and doesn't have such draconian moral restrictions. In fact, they're much more liberal than Utah. Does that mean liberalism has concrete benefits in terms of murder rates?
Hmm. I was curious too. From the most recent data I could find :
Murder rate, 2007, Utah, per 100,000 : 2.2
Murder rate, 2004, Germany, per 100,000 : 0.98
Murder rate, 2002, Saudi Arabia, per 100,000 : 0.92
So, clearly Utah is either too religious, or not religious enough. Or something.
Yeah, whatever. It's a terrible thing to have to execute someone. It shouldn't be something you can support from arms length. It shouldn't be something you hire a professional to do for you, so you can keep your hands clean and remain philosophical about it. If you, as a community, are deciding to execute someone, and you as an individual are supporting the decision, then you should have to confront the consequences, see the blood and pain, and have good reason not to be cavalier about it.
Societies that have an executioner who takes them into a room where no one can see and makes the person disappear are the barbaric ones, while those societies where the citizens stone the person to death are the civilized ones. It has nothing to do with the pain suffered by the dying, and everything to do with the pain suffered by the living.
Killing people doesn't make you manly and tough. But hiring someone else to do it for you does makes you cowardly and small.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Which is all fine and dandy until you can't get served at a bar because of it!
This is only true if either A) the "club" is otherwise totally empty, or B) you are such a complete and total douchebag that nobody would want you to come into the bar. The reason is because there is a provision in this stupid law that allows any club member to sponsor you as a guest, apparently for free. And while I am not a member of any such clubs so I don't know exactly how small the "membership fee" is, I am told that at many such clubs the fee is laughably small. The more exclusive ones (the fun clubs in Park City, for example) charge a higher fee because they can.
I live in Utah, and while I am not a frequent bar patron, I do go on occasion. The first time I went out to a bar after moving here, I was shocked to find out that I would not be allowed to enter without a membership or being sponsored by a member. Then the door girl explained that you just ask anybody to sponsor you, and they will. She asked the next guy in for me. "Hey, will you sponsor this guy?" He replied, yeah sure, like it was an everyday thing.
There are social benefits to this. Since frequent bar patrons have an incentive to become members of their favorite "club", the clubs seem to gravitate a certain type of person far more than in other places I have lived or visited. In other words, the cool clubs really are cool, and are often completely lacking in douchebags which is a welcome change from just about anywhere else in the world.
I may be wrong on this, but I believe if there is an event at the club on any given night, the membership requirement is waived. The dance clubs capitalize on this by hosting "events" every night of the week with a cover charge, so they essentially circumvent the law.
It's unfortunate that the Utah state legislosers play such a tremendous role in perpetuating oddball stereotypes about this state. In reality, most Mormons are very nice people, and most non-Mormon Utahns, in their ever-increasing numbers, do a great job of being non-Mormons.
Utahn here. Here is a brief synopsis of what you can expect about drinking in Utah.
Taverns are bars that sell beer only. They do not require memberships, can only sell 3.2% alcohol content beer. Food is not required to be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Private Clubs are bars that can sell stronger beer and spirits. A membership is required, or to be the guest of a member. In practice many places don't pay a lot of attention to this requirement. Many offer a temporary membership for around $5. The average price for a year membership is $12. Only one mixed drink per person at a time can be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Restaurants. If a restaurant has a liquor license they can sell spirits and beer without requiring memberships. However, you have to purchase food at the same time. Some restaurants only have a tavern license and only offer beer pr wine.
Liquor stores are a state run monopoly. You have to go to the state package store in order to purchase wine, beer stronger than 3.2% or spirits. This is the only way to purchase these products.
I wrote this article years ago regarding drinking in Utah. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A279731
it is better to light a flame thrower than curse the darkness. -Terry Pratchett Men at Arms
Liquor Laws require that any Restauraunt serve a higher percentage of food than Liquor. If you buy a drink from a restaurant, they often require you get an entree too for this reason. If they sell more drinks than food, their liquor license gets changed to a private club, and then they have to charge the private club fee.
Social gatherings in any place outside homes and bars (say, an art show) is limited to ONE glass of Wine per person, only 3x a year. We have something called the gallery stroll (through the downtown art galleries) and they cannot serve alcohol other than those 3x a year.
Bars and clubs also MUST buy liquor from the state, too. So bars cannot get a volume discount from say, jack daniels, and they pay the same price that any local pays for alcohol, with the high taxes and all.
Then, we have the limit on the amount of alcohol in a drink. you can only have 1 oz of hard liquor in a drink, mixed with 1.5 oz of non-alcoholic flavoring. As far as I know (I don't go out to drink here, it's too expensive/hard) you cannot mix alcohol types, so essentially, no Long Island Ice Teas or any other multiple spirit drinks.
The most frustrating thing about the database was reported in the news as "The Latter day saints church has no problem with changing the laws to make a database". That's not news! It's an incidental, not the reason, but it's well known that state legislators always meet with Church leaders before making changes like this.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Have you considered a job with the Supreme Court? You'd fit right in:
STAHL: If someone's in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person - if you listen to the expression "cruel and unusual punishment," doesn't that apply?
SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think - Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don't think so.
STAHL: Well I think if you're in custody, and you have a policeman who's taken you into custody-
SCALIA: And you say he's punishing you? What's he punishing you for? - When he's hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn't say he's punishing you. What is he punishing you for?"
You are still the only state that can, at times, makes us in Idaho feel a little less backwards. Thanks.