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Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
This idea is absolutely mormonic!
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
That's really scary! Is it really true that there are no conventional bars in UT? I sincerely hope this is inaccurate. Can anyone from UT give some insight? Do Mormons in UT's gov't really control your lives in so much depth that they legislate what you are allowed to do in your own free time?
*boggles*
Tourism? In Utah?
I honestly don't mean this as a troll, but seriously, how much non-Mormon tourism is there in Utah? The only place I can think of (of the top of my head) there that might attract tourists is Arches National Park (made somewhat famous in environmentalist circles by Edward Abbey's book "Desert Solitaire"), and it mostly attracts hikers not partiers. But, aside from that, how many non-Mormons actually come to Utah as tourists? And even if you were such a tourist, who the hell goes to Utah to drink?!? Isn't that what Nevada is for?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
I checked out a database on violent crime broken down by state. Utah's overall violent crime rate is less than half that of the nation, and murder rate 1/3 of that of the nation as a whole.
So while I don't like the "big brother" mentality, the moral code does have concrete benefits.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC
What's wrong with that? If you believe in the death penalty then I don't see firing squads as being any worse than lethal injection. Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles. If you don't believe in the death penalty then it seems that you shouldn't be limiting your criticism to Utah.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Say what?!?!?
Ok...this is really getting scary. Why should I have to swipe my drivers license (remenber, it was given as proof of driving certification, tax..etc) to get a drink? And why the hell should anyone know when I go to a bar (or anywhere else for that matter)?
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you. Or even with private insurance, I'm sure they'll get ahold of this sooner or later.
Amd..once the populace accepts swiping for bar entry...well, I'm sure they won't mind swiping for entry into drug stores, that would help gather your meds usage. How about grocery store for purchases, that way we can track your unhealthy eating habits.
And then of course...no need for EZPass...your nifty new drivers license will have RFID...so, that will make it easier for you....we can track your travels.
Ok, some of this sound far fetched? It might not be....the govt. lawnakers start small enough, but, pretty much every law passed has been expanded or abused.
In discussions yesterday, I recalled that when they first started passing seatbelt laws, they stated emphatically that the cops could NOT pull you over for not wearing one, but, if they pulled you over for something else, like running a stop sign, and saw you weren't wearing one....they could cite you.
Well, a few years later, once that was agreeable....they changed it, to being able to pull you over if they see you without one.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I like shaved pussy.
I believe Utah requires a permit for that too.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
It's the same idea about those who abuse animals end up abusing humans, and lethal injection, which is very nonviolent, is one of the better ways to separate the death penalty from murder.
"I only speak the truth"
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I saw an amusing poll on ESPN about Michael Phelps, who recently admitted to using pot.
Across the country about 75%-90% said they thought no less of the best swimmer in the world for using a recreational drug.
Except in Utah where almost 50% said they thought less of him. They are very detached from the mainstream.
"I only speak the truth"
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Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
There's a fair bit of debate in this point, leading to a Supreme Court case. Lethal Injection Potentially Not Painless
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Says who? If you believe the anti-death penalty crowd it's horrible agonizing pain. I don't really know who to believe as every side has an agenda and we can't exactly ask the people who were executed what it was like. I suspect the reality is probably somewhere in the middle of the 'no pain' and 'worse than being burned alive' arguments.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
*shrug*, for me at least it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'd honestly rather be shot than strapped to a table and killed with a needle. A head shot would be even better and probably painless (the brain is destroyed faster than the pain receptors can fire) but I'd still take the shots to the heart over the needle. To each their own I guess....
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
Raping and/or stoning would be cruel and unusual punishment. Being shot isn't, IMHO.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
I'm no fan of needles, but I'm also afraid of bullets.
Oh, and death itself.
For reasons ill understood by me, the method of lethal injection commonly used in human capital cases is actually pretty nasty. Fuckups that involve some minutes of the injectee screaming and struggling and whatnot are practically routine. I'm not sure why this is so, given that the technique used on domestic animals pretty much Just Works; but it is.
In the present state, firing squad is probably actually more humane, in terms of intensity and duration of suffering. It is a lot messier, so it looks more barbaric; but anybody who measures humaneness by how queasy the bystanders are is Doing It Wrong.
Got an RFID tag in your drivers license? Throw it in the microwave for 2 seconds.
Got a magstripe on your drivers license? Rub it with a magnet a few times.
Got a barcode on your drivers license? Use a little fine grit sandpaper on a few blocks.
Oh, that's funny, I wonder why your reader can't read my license. Must not be working right.
Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles.
But you're not afraid of a volley of bullets flying towards you?
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Yeah, whatever. It's a terrible thing to have to execute someone. It shouldn't be something you can support from arms length. It shouldn't be something you hire a professional to do for you, so you can keep your hands clean and remain philosophical about it. If you, as a community, are deciding to execute someone, and you as an individual are supporting the decision, then you should have to confront the consequences, see the blood and pain, and have good reason not to be cavalier about it.
Societies that have an executioner who takes them into a room where no one can see and makes the person disappear are the barbaric ones, while those societies where the citizens stone the person to death are the civilized ones. It has nothing to do with the pain suffered by the dying, and everything to do with the pain suffered by the living.
Killing people doesn't make you manly and tough. But hiring someone else to do it for you does makes you cowardly and small.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I live in Utah and these sorts of rumblings are a mainstay. They never pass because they're stupid, and everyone knows they're stupid, but they're a way for pols to get their name in the paper in a way they think will appeal to their constituency.
In this case, though, it appears to be backfiring. Even Waddoups' heavily-LDS district is largely rolling their eyes at this one. It probably won't damage him, though.
I DO, however, expect that if Utah deploys REAL ID driver's licenses -- the kind with chips in them -- that they'll start to require electronic age verification just because it's so much harder to forge than a driver's license. Assuming no databases are built, that's a reasonable approach to limiting under-age drinking.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Because the law can never be wrong, right?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Yeah - the death penalty has always been a deterrent, as proven by the lack of crime in the US.
All the death penalty has ever really accomplished is to satisfy a lust for revenge. Nothing more.
cheers,
Because the law can never be wrong, right?
I've never understood the argument that spending the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is any better than being killed for a crime you didn't commit. Both are horrible and we need to take steps to ensure that they don't happen -- but I don't buy "the law isn't perfect" as a justification for eliminating the death penalty.
I've been charged with a crime I didn't commit. Mind you it wasn't a capital offense but it was a felony. The system prevailed for me when a grand jury of my peers looked at the evidence, considered my testimony and refused to indict me. This episode strengthened my confidence in our legal system (while simultaneously weakening my confidence in our law enforcement agencies, but that's another story). There is no other country on this planet where I would want to be as someone wrongfully accused.
So no, the law isn't perfect and can be wrong. But I still believe in capital punishment. When you've inflicted egregious harm on society, society has the right to put you out of our collective misery after you've been accorded due process of law.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The three drug cocktail used in executions can be abused, horrifyingly, by the person administering it to cause terrible suffering. Some executions take an hour or two to complete. There certainly exist sickos who would just love to inflict this kind of horror; and then there also exists others I'd still call sickos who think engaging in an hour or two of horrible torture is something that the convicted justly deserves.
Obviously I'm not accusing all executioners of being monsters. But I see no reason for anything that can be "played with" to be part of executions. A single drug, a highly potent long acting barbiturate, for example, that is administered in overwhelmingly large overdose and that would have the convict unconscious in seconds and dead in a very very few minutes would take away this three-drug sicko game.
I believe that a recent US Supreme court decision said something like there was not enough proof that anything horrible was going on, and so they didn't order any change to lethal injection as a form of execution.
How willfully blind.
The fact that it's *possible* to turn the three-drug regimen into something horrible guarantees that the sickos will try.
Suddenly the firing squad option seems pretty humane by comparison!
Permanently locking someone up is equally effective as killing them
Until they kill another inmate or corrections officer. Or escape. Or get let out by some flower child judge that feels bad for them.
costs less
So justice is too expensive now?
which in the end, is why we would be sinking to the level of the criminal.
We aren't sinking to the level of the criminal because it's accepted that the state has the power to deprive individuals of life, liberty or process after according them due process of law. We have given the state a monopoly on the use of force in these situations. If you accept that we aren't sinking to the level of kidnappers by locking up convicted criminals then it seems to me that you should also accept that we aren't sinking to the level of murderers if we execute them.
Exactly! DUE PROCESS. Which is why it's so expensive and makes so little sense. In order to fulfill its obligations, the state wastes so many FTEs on the criminal that it becomes inefficient. I think we can all agree that inefficiency in Government is a bad thing. So why kill 'em? Isn't forcing someone to sit in a cell making license plates for 70 years more vindictive?
I don't think you actually read the text I quoted from the 5th amendment. The mere fact that you aren't executing them but instead depriving them of liberty for the rest of their life doesn't entitle them to less due process.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I have, and it's a puzzling experience. I was there on IT business for a week, about a year before they hosted the Olympics.
In the area around Park City, you didn't need to join the "private club." At a casual Italian place, we all wanted to order a beer. You couldn't say to the server, "What do you have on tap?" She replied by bringing a beer menu because it wasn't appropriate (perhaps illegal?) for her to actually discuss the alcoholic beverages with us.
We did the "private club" thing at a very good steakhouse in Salt Lake City. I believe it was $10 for the "membership." If you ordered a mixed drink--any mixed drink--the server automatically said, "Would you like a sidecar with that?" (A sidecar being an additional measured shot of whatever booze was involved.) Martinis arrived in glasses only 3/4 full because the hooch was so precisely measured.
The freakish thing about it was that, because it was a "private club," it was perfectly OK to smoke anywhere--right at the table, right next to a table that might or might not have been hosting smokers. No problem. So the other big Mormon no-no, tobacco, is apparently not quite as regulated.
My observation over the week were that the Mormons among our hosts had no problems at all with our ordering a drink, beer, or wine at dinner. The company hosted us at a very nice private dinner party on our last evening, and alcohol was readily available. I chose not to drink that evening to conform to their sensibilities, then screwed up by ordering an iced tea.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
I can address the "which tourists would join a club" question. I used to be a sales rep in the outdoor industry, for tents, backpacks, boots, whatnot. The industry's twice-yearly trade show was in Salt Lake City, so I would spend the greater part of a week in SLC twice a year. During that time, it's really nice to be able to grab a beer with your partners, or your clients, or your friends from the other side of the country you only see twice a year...
fwiw, we rarely got hassled to "join" a club. I don't know if they relaxed the rules during those weeks in the face of thousands of heathens coming in from the outside, or if they tired of hearing each of those heathens saying, "Private membership club wot wot?" but only once that I recall did we have to sign up as members. And that was actually pretty funny - my buddy is a smartass, and went on a riff about what benefits we could expect, when do they mail the newsletter, is there a profit-sharing option, and so on - the waitress was lost.
Some oddities did exist, though: iirc, you could not order pitchers of anything, only individual drinks. You could only have one drink at a time, so if you ordered "another round", the server could not set the new drink down in front of you until you drained the first one or gave it to the server. And all the beer was 3.2, which is basically beer for people who like to pee a lot.
Have you considered a job with the Supreme Court? You'd fit right in:
STAHL: If someone's in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person - if you listen to the expression "cruel and unusual punishment," doesn't that apply?
SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think - Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don't think so.
STAHL: Well I think if you're in custody, and you have a policeman who's taken you into custody-
SCALIA: And you say he's punishing you? What's he punishing you for? - When he's hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn't say he's punishing you. What is he punishing you for?"
From a Canadian viewpoint, one of the fascinating things about the U.S. is that, in many ways, it's composed of a few dozen political experiments, all going on at once. Each succeeds to the extent that people choose to live in a particular state and thrive there.
Utah is not New York. They could be on different planets, and yet they are both populated by people who call themselves Americans. The opportunities for comparative anthropology are immense.
I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
You are still the only state that can, at times, makes us in Idaho feel a little less backwards. Thanks.
Please don't talk about what Orwellian means when you clearly have never read any of his books. To say that having no bars is Orwellian is to dilute the word from it's true meaning.
In 1984, every movement of every citizen is tracked, not just in public but even in their own home. Children are bribed into spying on and turning in their parents. People are tortured for the slightest sign of dissent. Records of the past are continuously 'corrected' at the whim of the government. The nation is at constant war (which may, or may not be really happening) to keep the population in fear. Sex is stigmatized and strictly for procreation (and remember, they're constantly watching you so they'll know if you appear to enjoy it and will punish you accordingly). The very language is controlled and managed to eliminate as many words as possible, for the expressed purpose of limiting people's thoughts to what they have the words to express.
So no, having no bars is not Orwellian, even forcing people to swipe the their ID before they can drink is not 'almost Orwellian'. You could argue that it is a step in that direction, but that is a totally different statement.
I've yet to come across any youthful geek-goth-emo-indy-gamer-progressive-wirehead-gearhead whatever who views him or herself as "the mainstream." Everybody is just too cool for the room, proud to be part of that hip 10% who think or do something a different way. To criticize the people of Utah for being "detached from the mainstream" is the height of hypocrisy.
In fact, in a nation of talkers, nobody walks the walk like the Utah folk. You may not agree with the way they live their lives -- in fact, that's kinda the point, ennit? -- but you gotta respect their capacity for shaping their world into their worldview. I mean, they carved out a goddam state for themselves, they make the laws, and if you don't like it, stay the fuck out. Let's see the Gays, Catholics, Muslims, Libertarians, Han-Shot-Firsters try that and succeed.
I may not agree with every aspect of their lifestyle or beliefs, but I do like the way they get things done.
Um - you're a little late there. "Mormons" are in pretty much every country on Earth. In the US, there are 6 million LDS church members - so one out of 50 people in the US is a "Mormon". Utah has 1.5 million LDS church members in it - so excluding Utah it is 1 out of 60.
There are 7 million members in the rest of the world - so there are actually more "Mormons" that live outside the United States than that live inside. The church is growing at 3% per year - doubling every 15 years or so.
For fun facts, the country of Tonga is 46% Mormon. The country of Samoa is 36%. Utah is 72%. Hawaii is 5%.
What rock have you been under?
while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
So you are saying that Phelps has less than half a brain? When he decided to become a professional athlete, whose income depends on (a) his athletic performance and (b) his public image, he should have been aware that his public life is exactly that, public.
When someone's career is selling an image, his life should be what the image portrays, or he would be a fraud.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think laws were made to be obeyed. If you think some drugs shouldn't be prohibited, you should campaign to have those laws rescinded. As the ancient Romans said, "dura lex sed lex", the law may be hard but it's still the law.
I'm not sure why this is so, given that the technique used on domestic animals pretty much Just Works; but it is.
Because animals are usually put down with a massive overdose of pentobarbital, which effectively turns their brain off. I had to have one of our cats put down last year - she was unconscious before the vet had completed the injection and dead less than 15 seconds later, with no signs of any discomfort.
This business of using a cocktail of drugs to paralyze and ultimately stop the heart of the condemned is just ridiculous. I don't know that pentobarbital overdose in humans works the same way as it does in animals, but there's got to be a better way. It's not pretty, but frankly a gunshot to the back of the head seems a lot more humane than most execution methods used in the US today.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
I spent a week in UT a couple of years ago and I am from MI, where most people take up drinking in the winter months. I was aware of the odd drinking laws going in to the bars, they just carded me, saw that I was from out of state and waved me on through. I can't really say that the beer was any weaker than back home, drank both bottled and draft. It might just be the places that I went, but it seemed like the local businesses knew how to cater to patrons from out of state like a normal state would instead of making visitors jump through all of the hoops that locals need to go through. Then again, that was a few years ago so things might be different now.
The biggest proponents of Yes-on-8, both by on-the-ground activism of bishops and priests, and by actual yes votes, were the Catholics, and I don't see anyone scapegoating them. Probably because they're an important voting bloc so you have to be nice to them, while the Mormons are a small enough minority that they're a useful scapegoat.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10