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Darwinism Must Die So Evolution Can Live

Pickens writes "MacArthur fellow Carl Safina, an adjunct professor at Stony Brook University, has an interesting essay in the NYTimes that says that equating evolution with Charles Darwin opened the door for creationism by ignoring 150 years of discoveries, including most of what scientists understand about evolution — Gregor Mendel's patterns of heredity, the discovery of DNA, developmental biology, studies documenting evolution in nature, and evolution's role in medicine and disease. Darwinism implies an ideology adhering to one man's dictates, like Marxism, says Safina. He adds that nobody talks about Newtonism or Einsteinism, and that by making Darwin 'into a sacred fetish misses the essence of his teaching.' By turning Darwin into an 'ism,' scientists created the opening for creationism, with the 'isms' implying equivalence. 'By propounding "Darwinism," even scientists and science writers perpetuate an impression that evolution is about one man, one book, one theory,' writes Safina. '"Darwinism" implies that biological scientists "believe in" Darwin's "theory." It's as if, since 1860, scientists have just ditto-headed Darwin rather than challenging and testing his ideas, or adding vast new knowledge.'"

156 of 951 comments (clear)

  1. neodarwinism by tomtomtom777 · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is why most biologist refer to Darwins theory plus all the addition thoughts of the last 150 year as neodarwinism

    Darwins basic idea still stands so it doesn't seem illogical to use his name for the theory

    1. Re:neodarwinism by harry666t · · Score: 4, Informative

      Duh, it's still an -ism.

    2. Re:neodarwinism by hattig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought that "Darwinism" was a term thought up by the religious anti-evolution side.

      Why? I suspect that it is because they associate their beliefs with an entity, God in this case, and thus cannot see how other people don't need to also do that. Thus they ultimately project this viewpoint that people who believe in evolution are actually believing in a false God as part of their propaganda against evolution.

      Darwin, of course, studied theology at Cambridge University. He was also a depressive, presumably because of how stupid (and stubbornly-so) most people were. I think he would be depressed today. Especially if he saw the creationism museum.

      Btw, there was a pretty good David Attenborough programme on BBC TV last week about Darwin and Evolution that showed many of the subsequent discoveries. I forget the title, but it must be available on popular video sharing sites.

    3. Re:neodarwinism by wisty · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some people say he was depressed because he was a devout Christian, but his work was contradicting his beliefs.

      I think that "Darwinism" is used by scientists to describe classical evolution. "Post-Darwinist" theories include punctuated (or stepped) evolution, founder affects, modern genetics, and a lot of other things. The rate of mutations is often evolved - so evolution is itself evolving - groovy hey! I haven't studied that stuff for years, but "Darwinism" has not been the alpha and omega of evolution for quite some time.

      Some interesting developments outside ecology would include the use of evolution in programming (genetic algorithms), the evolution of cancers, the evolution of ideas and institutions, the evolution of ecologies, and basically anything else that satisfies the replication, competition, and mutation criteria. Myopic? I don't think so.

    4. Re:neodarwinism by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I thought that "Darwinism" was a term thought up by the religious anti-evolution side.

      I was taught 'Darwin's theory of natural selection' in school, as part of the basic theory of evolution. Mendel and his peas were in there as well. I'll also note that the theory of evolution in my textbook explicitly didn't cover the start of life; there was some mention of 'primordial soup', but fully admitted that scientists don't really have a clue.

      I have never heard it called 'Darwinism' by anything other than creationists and the people handing out awards in a bit of black humor.

      I wonder if the anti-evolutionists were around when I was a kid; I don't remember ever hearing about them. I wouldn't be surprised if a big part of the yelling right now is the last gasp of the creationists, as they can no longer hide in small areas in local or church schools. News is far more national now than it was even 20 years ago. If my study of history has shown me anything; it's that rarely is anything having to do with the human condition new or unique. There's creationists over in Europe; in China and India.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    5. Re:neodarwinism by Excors · · Score: 5, Informative

      there was a pretty good David Attenborough programme on BBC TV last week about Darwin and Evolution that showed many of the subsequent discoveries

      Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life?

      There's also an interesting quote from David Attenborough in response to people asking "why he did not give "credit" to God" for the subjects of his nature documentaries:

      They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator.

    6. Re:neodarwinism by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I haven't studied that stuff for years, but "Darwinism" has not been the alpha and omega of evolution for quite some time.

      I've read about some of that stuff as well, but having to gone to public school and been stuck in 'regular' classes on occasion, I'd say that 'Darwinism' is about the right level for basic grade school scientific theory. Just don't go trying to apply it to bacteria too much. Bacteria sex is one of the weirder things out there. Mendel's Pea experiments are good for heredity.

      Honestly enough, I've never really understood any but the most literal creationist's objections to evolution. I mean, why aren't they protesting dinosaurs? Isn't the Earth supposed to be too young for them to have existed?

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    7. Re:neodarwinism by Paladin128 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it depends on where you were taught and who you were teaching. I've known both sane biology professors, and some who practically canonized Darwin as their patron saint. I agree with the Author's premise; there is too much religious zeal among many biologists. Religion is not science, and confusing the two is detrimental to both.

      I say this as a deeply religious man, and a scientist.

      --
      Lex orandi, lex credendi.
    8. Re:neodarwinism by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Absolutely.

      I don't know where the author got his information from, but equating Darwin directly with evolution and setting him up as the absolute authority on evolution and natural select is exactly the straw man argument used by the ID/creation morons.

      They try, in their pathetic attempt to debate, to equate "The Origin of the Species" with the bible and insinuate that it is a text that "atheists" (i.e. everyone that doesn't agree with their exact take on biblical inerrancy) hold to be inerrant, holy and the subject of religious fervour. Or that "atheists" hold Darwin to be some sort of messiah, and ascribe that view to belief and faith. This then allows them to knock down their hastily erected straw man by saying "my religion is as valid as yours". It's not only an invalid argument, it's intellectually dishonest, as is the entire ID movement.

      That the NYT thinks this is really the case is shocking.

      Darwin was a smart guy. He wasn't *the* smart guy, and in fact some others around his time were starting to explore similar ideas. A lot has happened since then, some of his work has been extended, some parts contradicted or corrected.

    9. Re:neodarwinism by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I mean, why aren't they protesting dinosaurs?"

      I'm pretty sure they used to. There's a whole set of Fundy arguments about the validity of carbon (and other) dating methods, and a load of stock rants on how it's all based on faulty assumptions and circular reasoning.

      They tend not to even touch on the fact we have records of humans and human civilisation back before they think the world was created...

      Bunch of hateful, wilfully ignorant assholes. Wilful ignorance on this scale should be the greatest sin.

    10. Re:neodarwinism by ByOhTek · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, the other part is that scientists use Darwinian, not Darwinism. This is like Einsteinian and Newtonian in physics. Nobody kvetches about those. I have yet to hear an evolutionary scientist mention Darwinism when discussing the topic.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    11. Re:neodarwinism by hattig · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ah, the "carbon dating is only accurate for 5,000 years argument".

      Sadly for them it's accurate for 60,000 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating#cite_note-0). Even so, it's not the dating method used for things like dinosaurs, or even pre-homo-sapiens times. There are other elements that decay slower and are thus far more useful as a metric - Potassium-Argon and Uranium-Lead are some I believe, but don't quote me, and I'm at work so can't keep on hunting down references.

    12. Re:neodarwinism by jeremyp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He wasn't a devout Christian. He was a Christian at first but no more or less so than anybody else of his time. Yes, he studied Divinity at Cambridge with the aim of becoming a country parson, but that was really only to provide him with a respectable position so that he could carry on collecting beetles

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    13. Re:neodarwinism by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed they have. This doesn't, however, mean that they respect the rules of debate or any sort of historical precedent. I think it's because the general public, even the religious general public, laugh out loud when they say that dinosaurs are a lie/a test/all fake/a set of species that lived with humans 4K years ago.

      They've moved on to evolution in general because it's a complicated issue, and the rhetoric they can use on their congregations becomes simpler - "you don't want to understand what all these egghead sciency guys are saying do you? That would be a lot of effort and you like easy answers! They're all elitist and liberal and stuff! They believe this really complicated thing that I'm going to summarise as them saying there's no God! You believe in God right? Right!?!"

      It's not really a debate as such, it's them trying to turn the tide of popular opinion and latching on to whatever they can, whilst trying to persuade people that "we can do science talk too!" and then talking in circles and trying to keep their ideas from too much scrutiny.

    14. Re:neodarwinism by hobbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good GOD! Maybe he was depressed because his theory left him no HOPE! At least with my belief in God, I have some hope that the world situation won't suck as much as it does now, but what hope do people have who REFUSE to believe in ANY higher power?

      We don't refuse. Refusal implies a choice; I suppose we could pretend to believe in something, but who would we really be kidding? Personally, I think that my interpretation of the world, in which suffering is a side-effect of the laws of physics, is less hopeless than yours, in which suffering is all part of God's plan.

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    15. Re:neodarwinism by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but what hope do people have who REFUSE to believe in ANY higher power?

      Hope for what? Life after death? Why do you need "hope" in *anything*? What's going to happen is going to happen, regardless of what you believe. And what's going to happen is that you wink out of existence when you die.

      This is what I don't understand. How is it better to believe in a lie that you know isn't true?

      [I'm fairly convinced that all religious people know, in their deepest, darkest, secret place that most will never admit, they know that the God and the bible is a bunch of nonsense. But the idea frightens them to their core.]

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    16. Re:neodarwinism by drooling-dog · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I thought that "Darwinism" was a term thought up by the religious anti-evolution side.

      Ideas are easier to attack when they can be pinned to a particular individual, and the attacks made ad hominem. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's a tactic most often used by conservatives. For example, I find it difficult to discuss global warming with conservatives without veering into a debate on the merits of Al Gore and whether he invented the Internet. Similarly, debates on other matters have been "settled" with assertions that Michael Moore is undeniably fat and doesn't dress nicely.

      You'll start hearing about "Newtonism" and "Einsteinism" the moment that some conservative (most likely religious) constituency realizes that modern physics challenges their worldview every bit as much as evolutionary biology. After all, Relativity is only a theory, and why should anyone listen to a guy who can't comb his hair properly?

      But don't listen to me - I didn't shave today...

    17. Re:neodarwinism by OwnedByTwoCats · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The half-life of Carbon 14, which is the radioactive isotope of carbon used in carbon datingm is 5730 years, +/1 40, says google.

      Fundamentalists also use Bishop Ussher's calculation for the age of the earth, which puts creation "to the night preceding 23 October 4004 BC, according to the proleptic Julian calendar.", from wikipedia. So the universe, and the earth, are 6013 years old.

    18. Re:neodarwinism by Zerth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why? I suspect that it is because they associate their beliefs with an entity,

      .

      Struth, most proponents of "Intelligent Sucking" lump all the theories of gravitation under Newtonism, despite it having centuries of new material.

      Every time light lenses around a massive object, they all shout "Look, God sucked a little harder! Newton never predicted that, so it is all wrong."

      Depressing, really.

    19. Re:neodarwinism by Shirakawasuna · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dawkins uses 'Darwinism' as do a lot of other scientists. It's often the term used for the theory of natural selection, which is only part of evolutionary theory (of course). I get very tired of hearing it used out of context, or worse, having evolution equated with natural selection. Scientists do it, too! I agree with the opinion piece: we need to do away with the term 'Darwinism'. It's misleading and provides way too much fodder for creationists for no good reason.

    20. Re:neodarwinism by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not posting to disagree with you because I believe in an afterlife. I don't, per-se. But consciousness amazes the fuck out of me, and the amount of certainty you express seems to me to be at odds with just how amazing it actually is, especially given that you (and I) have zero firsthand experience with the experience in question -- death.

      That we experience things is incredible. Where does consciousness "live?" I can explain the outward behaviors of organisms by saying that they are governed by amazingly complicated differential equations that give rise to all of this. But what about consciousness, experience? If this really is the true nature of things -- and, maybe, it is -- then differential equations think and feel and experience, in their own way. Why should we be different in anything but degree from an atom? And what does an atom experience, running the Schrodinger (or, Dirac) equation at its heart? More importantly, what do /our/ constituent atoms, molecules, proteins feel? Surely they carry on after our organs have stopped working. How much of our-"selves" is in them?

      I don't know. Nobody does.

    21. Re:neodarwinism by NonUniqueNickname · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Jewish Calendar is said to count years since the creation of the world. Currently at tav-shin-samech-tet which is* 5769 years. As to how they got the number, scholars took the bother to count year references in the bible and add them up. Things like "in the 5th year of the reign of King Whatshisname" and "Whatshisname's peace lasted for 40 years".
      It's a lot of work. It's also flawed. In Judges there are so many periods tagged as lasting 40 years that it's quite clear the number should not be taken literally. Probably an idiomatic expression that means "a long time".
      * Technically 769. Year notation omits the hei that represents 5000.

    22. Re:neodarwinism by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's not very scientific. It may follow logically that consciousness ends at death, but if you're going to be totally honest, you can neither prove nor disprove that there is life after death, because human consciousness post-death is not observable (and therefore not reportable).

      Of course nothing about life after death is "provable", but then, nothing about the physical universe is provable either, except your own existence (your senses could be lying to you). At some point, we have to fall back on Occaam's Razor, which tells us that, all else being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the "best". And all the major religions of the world have absolutely no evidence for them. So if they're all equally likely, then the best conclusion is that they are equally false.

      The simplest explanation is that life is exactly as it appears to be: a very, very complex self-reproducing chemical reaction that is powered by the sun. THAT is the simplest explanation that fits the facts that we have.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    23. Re:neodarwinism by drew · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Honestly enough, I've never really understood any but the most literal creationist's objections to evolution.

      Of course, if you get too literal, you run into other problems. After all, there are passages in Genesis that make reference to God setting up the pillars that support the four corners of the earth... While I'm sure there were still plenty of them in Darwin's time, I doubt you'd find even the staunchest creationists today that still believe that the earth has corners. So somehow they have to pick and choose which parts are literal and which are not. I suppose they use the same logic that they used to decide that homosexuality is still a heinous sin, but the restrictions on eating pork and seafood, when it's acceptable to sell your daughter into slavery, and most of the other old testament laws no longer apply in today's society.

      As far as dinosaurs go, maybe you just weren't paying attention... Most of them claim that our dating mechanisms aren't accurate. They claim that dinosaurs lived side by side with humans up until the flood or until the expulsion from Eden. Others claim that the dinosaurs never really existed at all, and that fossils are part of the earth God created, to test our faith (or planted by the devil to mislead us). I've also heard the claim that our current measures of time and human lifespan were not applicable until the expulsion from Eden, meaning that Adam and Eve may have lived happily in Eden for millions of years before the beginning of the supposed 6,000 year recorded history in the Bible. (Although, you're starting to get away from strict Creationism there, because that interpretation can also be stretched to imply that the "seven days" of creation actually lasted about 4 billion years by our current measurements.)

      I am surprised to see a high ranking Scientist make a statement like this, though. I agree with the reasoning behind it, but I had assumed that the Scientific community had already gotten away from using the term "Darwinism". The only times I can ever remember hearing it used were either 1) Religious types who use the term as a sort of straw man for attacking evolutionary theory, or 2) attempts to apply Darwin's ideas to areas outside of biology, e.g. "Social Darwinism". Is "Darwinism" really still in widespread use among scientists? Or is this more of an attempt to convince non-scientists to give up a term that scientists have already abandoned long ago?

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    24. Re:neodarwinism by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Informative

      Honestly enough, I've never really understood any but the most literal creationist's objections to evolution. I mean, why aren't they protesting dinosaurs? Isn't the Earth supposed to be too young for them to have existed?

      First, many of them do protest dinosaurs. They are split into camps that claim they are a hoax and camps that claim they existed at the same time as man, within the last few thousand years. Young earth creationists, however, are a fairly small group. Old earth creationists are a much larger group. They accept that the earth has been around a long time and when dinosaurs existed. They accept heliocentrism. Both of those theories are simple and understandable to them and if a preacher tries to convince them the scientists are attacking them by teaching those theories, they stop listening to the preacher.

      Evolution is a more complex idea. Most of them don't understand it and it is easy for an exploitive preacher or politician to confuse the issue and conflate evolution with the big bang theory and abiogenesis. By lumping all these theories together and calling it "darwinism" or "evo-athiesm" (two terms used a lot by preachers and not really at all by scientists or anyone else) they create further confusion and at the same time try to imply that all these theories are dependent upon one another and part of a scientific attack on religion.

      Most christians and organized religions in general recognize evolution as describing what is happening in the world and can reconcile that with their religious beliefs. Some can reconcile other scientific theories as well. By lumping them, preachers can gain a wider audience and are more likely to strike a belief where the listener has no understanding. This is why only the lunatic fringe can successfully attack the existence or timeframe for dinosaurs, whereas evolution is still a useful topic for them.

    25. Re:neodarwinism by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Funny

      I used to think the brain was the most amazing organ in the body... and then I realized what was telling me that. -Emo Philips

    26. Re:neodarwinism by kungfugleek · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wonder if the anti-evolutionists were around when I was a kid; I don't remember ever hearing about them.

      Probably creationists didn't see it as a threat as much as some do now. In "Mere Christianity", CS Lewis uses the evolution of man as an analogy for man's spiritual evolution. The tone he uses when speaking of evolution is one of total acceptance; I think he basically believed evolution was all true, and expected his readers would have the same belief.

    27. Re:neodarwinism by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      well, it's based on the Bible.
      The Jews have a pretty good number. It's funny how they ignore that:
      a) Adam and Eve only had boys, and
      b) Cain was marked so that no would kill him. But since he was driven away, who would kill him? Obviously there are people outside of Adam and Eves family...actually it's obviously an allegory.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    28. Re:neodarwinism by joNDoty · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most Christians are NOT fundamentalists. You lumping all God-loving people into a crazy fundamentalist camp is a worse straw-man argument than calling evolution "darwinism".

  2. That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That is, as the Brits say, bollocks.

    The issue is that this ignorant view may be perpetuated in America. I have never heard anyone in Europe utter such crap.

    Let us pray that Obama can wipe public references to deities into oblivion.

    1. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You beat me to it.

      No-one in science calls themselves a Darwinist anyway, they'd say they were an evolutionary biologist. They do believe in natural selection obviously, since you can't make predictions (hence, do any science at all) from ID. I have appeared as co-author on a paper in Molecular Biology and Evolution, so I know whereof I speak.

      OK, it wouldn't hurt to stop calling it Darwinism, in the same way that we don't talk about Feynmannism (QED), or Einsteinism (relativity). But that's just a name.

      --
      "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
    2. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by alpayerturkmen · · Score: 2, Funny

      So help me god...

      --
      Alpay Curious...
    3. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Then listen better. Even here in Europe there's people spewing this crap.
      At the moment, here in the Netherlands there's a huge discussion going on on Dutch TV between a broadcasting organization (EO, Evangelical Broadcasting org, lit.) and 'the rest'
      Though a lot of the people even working for said EO are quite intelligent and don't spew crap at all, quite a few (chaired by their former director) are even MORE insane than the US creationists like Kent Hovind and the people from Answers in Genesis

    4. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by whitehatnetizen · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Let us pray that Obama can wipe public references to deities into oblivion." Oh the irony.....

    5. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Stroot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't count on it. There is no US politician yet who can publicly state he is an atheist, or he can forget his further career. Obama did a lot for emancipation of black people, let's just hope that after him there will be female, gay and an atheist presidents too.

    6. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's a pretty silly argument anyway - calling it something else doesn't change what it is

      Change your name to Mr Fuckwit. It won't change who you are.

      It will however change how people receive you, how they think about you and, in all likely hood, your chances of success in life.

      This isn't about changing what evolution is, it's about framing it in a way that gives a more correct impression of what it is.

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    7. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes but not every where in the world, do these idiots get powers bestowed upon them to meddle in science. That phenomenon seems to be very unique to USA.

      --
      for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
    8. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Aris+Katsaris · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want a place that's less gay-friendly and less atheist-friendly, that's the day you'll become an IRANIAN, you idiot, not Canadian.

      Why the hell would Canada want you?? Why the hell do you think it would be a better place for you than America?

    9. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Rewind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As an American I have never heard anyone in the US call themselves a "a Darwinist" so I don't see what your point proves.

      As for the wipe public references to deities into oblivion, why bother? I think it would be better if the world at large stopped trying to feel better about themselves because they are "right". Forcing science on someone for no reason isn't any better than forcing religion on someone imo.

      If you want to believe in creationism, go crazy. I don't care. You are free to have that opinion. If you want to accept evolution, likewise, have a field day. I, again, don't care about your personal thoughts. It has no impact on me and you are free to disagree with my own.

      What does impact me is the annoying ongoing battle, with minimal relevance to society as a whole, is this idea that 'everyone must think what I think'. It is stupid, let it go. I mean if people are breaking the law with violence or forcing ideas on someone then sure, go after them for that. Otherwise? Let people think what they want on issues of religion vs science. Fighting that battle is just an exhaustive waste for no fathomable reason that has yet to ever achieve any measurable goal. Trying to do so again for the 100,000,000th time is unlikely to change that outcome.

      --
      ?
    10. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Xest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's bollocks because if it wasn't an "ism" Creationists would still find something official sounding.

      Looking at Scientology, it's a play on Science and the various "ology" fields out there- phsycology, sociology etc. when the reality is it has nothing to do with either. Should we all stop calling Science Science because it's giving Scientology an air of being an authentic set of ideas?

      These movements play on this for a reason and a sudden change of wording isn't going to vanish their ability to come up with official sounding names for the bullshit they peddle.

      Also, I believe that the reason texts say things such as "they believe in Darwin's theory" is because there is no absolute proof for it and it is just that, a theory. It's a theory with enough evidence to be worth believing in however as opposed to creationism which still yields zero evidence and that's the difference here.

      The author misses the point, it's stupid to run from things like Creationism by changing names and attitudes of scientists, what needs to change is the attitudes and understanding of the general public so they can understand what the difference is between believing a scientific theory and believing a story from the best-selling fiction books of all time (Bible, Koran).

      From what I understand, the use of the word "believe" in terms of a theory is actually correct, and to remove it and state a theory as fact would actually be cheating real science, if we could trust it with 100% certainty rather than say 99.999999999999999% certainty then it'd surely be classed as fact not a theory no?

    11. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Corbets · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The issue is that this ignorant view may be perpetuated in America. I have never heard anyone in Europe utter such crap.

      You've obviously never lived in Europe.

      http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Swiss_drag_knuckles_accepting_evolution.html?siteSect=201&sid=7141596&cKey=1160562740000&ty=st

      Ignorance is not solely an American problem; it's simply our prevalence on the world stage that leads you to believe that. Living in Europe for the last 3 years, I've found it's not particularly different here.

    12. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are plenty of other areas were science and politics mix. And it ain't pretty. Living in the UN city (Vienna) I can assure you it not just the US of A.

      But yes, the only anti evolution people i have meet here (EU) are Americans that now live here (think they find the woman hot ;) ).

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    13. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by corbettw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gays queer the place up and atheists are bitter angry people.

      More irony, you sound bitter and angry, already.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    14. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by crmarvin42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Be careful about casting aspersions on an entire Nation because of a handful of nutjobs. Britan may not have the Anti-Evolutionist ID proponents, but it does have a rampant case of Homeopathy which is compounded by the growing belief that Vaccinations cause Autism.

      The evidence for Homeopathy and Vaccine caused Autism are not any better than the "evidence" for ID put forward by the nutjobs here in the US. There is a whole soap opera going on right now concerning the Science blog "Bad Science" by Brian Goldacre and some London radio personality that's decided the pharmecutical companies are out to kill children.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    15. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by rdnetto · · Score: 5, Informative

      That might be because the USA is one of the largest Protestant-majority countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_by_country). Catholics (and most of the groups which split from them prior to the Protestant Reformation) aren't fundamentalists. i.e. they don't take the Bible literally, seeing Genesis as symbolic rather than historical. This enables them to reconcile evolution (and other scientific principles) with their faith.
      This also demonstrates that it is possible to be both religious and scientific.

      DISCLAIMER: IAAC (I am a Catholic).

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    16. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Chrisje · · Score: 2, Informative

      Having said that, the EO is a broadcasting corporation many people actively laugh at in The Netherlands. 44% of our population is a registered atheist and I can't remember the last time anyone dragged god into political discourse on particular topics. Granted, the largest political party is the Christian Democrats' party, but at the end of the day I would say that the people who claim Evolution doesn't exist are either too old for their own good or a part of a small, small minority.

      THe ugly truth is, though, that most people probably simply never thought about it. And this applies both to the US and the Netherlands. You do as you're told, rarely as you think you should do.

    17. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by 1u3hr · · Score: 3, Insightful
      OK, it wouldn't hurt to stop calling it Darwinism,

      And in TFA "Using phrases like 'Darwinian selection' or 'Darwinian evolution' implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective."

      However, there are and were other theories of evolution. Aside from "Intelligent Design", there was also "Lamarckism". Probably others. So "Darwinism" is a useful adjective to mean "the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection".

    18. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Rhuragh · · Score: 5, Informative

      Allow me to acquaint you with Pete Stark (D-CA-13). He's been openly out as an atheist since January 2007. In addition to Stark, there are ten other current members of Congress who decline to list their religion, opening the possibility that some of them are, at least, closet atheists/agnostics.

    19. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Anspen · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Dawkins is certainly abrasive on the subject, and I can understand many people disliking him for it. However science does have Also there seems to be a rather odd difference made between people saying "There *is* as god, and you should believe in him or you're going to end badly" and someone saying "No your wrong, you're just believing in fairy tales". The former is pretty much accepted (though the explicitness of the 'end badly part' tends to vary with audience) while the latter is seen as rude.

      Beyond that: no science can't disprove the existence of god. But science also can't disprove the existence of unicorns or leprechauns and no one seem to go into a tiffy when some one says those don't exist. For almost everything else the burden is on the person saying something exists.

    20. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by alcmaeon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let us pray that Obama can wipe public references to deities into oblivion.

      There isn't a chance in hell your prayers will be answered because a) there is no god b) Barak Obama isn't him either, and c) Obama panders to the religious nonsense more than most presidents we have had with the possible exception of George W, but Obama has only been in 3 weeks. Give him time and he will beat Bush.

    21. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That might be because the USA is one of the largest Protestant-majority countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_by_country). Catholics (and most of the groups which split from them prior to the Protestant Reformation) aren't fundamentalists. i.e. they don't take the Bible literally, seeing Genesis as symbolic rather than historical. This enables them to reconcile evolution (and other scientific principles) with their faith. This also demonstrates that it is possible to be both religious and scientific.

      In reality, that is a rather new development for the Catholic faith, who spent centuries killing anyone they could who spouted heresy related to non-strict interpretations of the Bible, or who attempted to print their own versions. If anything, they simply had the experience of more centuries of having science prove them wrong, and decided to get ahead of the curve.

    22. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by the+phantom · · Score: 3, Informative
      While I understand the point that you are trying to make, this

      President has to swear by God at his inauguration,

      is not true. Nowhere in the oath of office is any god mentioned. Nearly all presidents have added a "so help me god" to the end of the oath, but it is not in the Constitution. Most presidents have sworn the oath on a Bible, but not all. Franklin Pierce, in addition to not using a Bible, didn't swear the oath, either -- he affirmed it. If you are suggesting that the president "has" to swear to god at the inauguration in the same way that he "has" to be religious to be elected, then I am with you, but your phrasing indicates that the swearing to god is more prescribed than that.

    23. Re:That is, as the Brits say, bollocks by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obama did a lot for emancipation of black people

      You're confusing Obama with Lincoln. FYI slavery has been outlawed for so long that all the slaves are dead, and all the slaveowners are dead.

      Obama, Winfrey, and Cosby have a hell of a lot more in common with Donald Trump than I do. I have a lot more in common with the black people down the street than Winfrey and Cosby do.

      Racism is a tool of the rich to disguise the real evil here -- classism. Black people aren't repressed because of their race, poor black people are repressed because of their poverty.

  3. Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by VShael · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sick of pandering to the ill-educated buffoons who want to drag civilisation kicking and screaming back into the dark ages.

    Darwin wasn't utterly and completely right first time out of the bag. So what?
    His discoveries have been validated, refined, added-to, improved in ways he could never have predicted.
    Again, so what?

    Darwin laid the bedrock, the foundation, upon which stands much of modern science, let alone biology.

    And until you can give me a reason why we should metaphorically bury the giants upon who's shoulders we collectively stand, I will resist this utterly foolish idea.

    1. Re:Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by dnwq · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Damn it, he's not saying "we should bury Darwin's theory of evolution altogether to hide from the mad fundie hordes!", he's proposing a change in terminology that seems entirely appropriate, to be honest.

      And the reason, quite rightly, is this: "We don't call astronomy Copernicism, nor gravity Newtonism." The theory of biological evolution has changed since Darwin introduced it.

      To continue to label modern evolutionary theory as 'Darwinism' walks into a creationist trap to paint evolution as some sort of Darwin-worshipping religion. And I only wish I were kidding.

    2. Re:Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by VShael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We don't call astronomy Copernicism, nor gravity Newtonism.

      And we don't call evolution "Darwinism". It seems only the creationists do that, and they are deliberately obfuscating matters anyway.

      However we DO call Newtonian Dynamics by its name, and rightly so. "Darwinian evolution" also has it's place, even if it has been supplanted in our understanding.

      What I object to is changing the terminology to suit the prejudices of ignorant people, when they will neither appreciate the gesture nor cease their complaints.

      If we were to start modifying any language, (which we shouldn't) a better place to start would be the word "theory" which seems to come under perpetual attack by virtue of the fact that its scientific meaning differs from its everyday meaning. Yet another distinction creationists are all too willing to overlook and exploit for their benefit.

    3. Re:Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by LaskoVortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd suggest that by using the term "Darwinism" they are exactly the people you are pandering to.

      By using the term "Darwinism" you link the scientific idea to its originator. We do this for many other phenomena that require words for description. We say "Mendelian" genetics/inheritance, "Newtonian" mechanics, "Darwinian" evolution, "Cartesian" space. The presence of an "ism" at the end is little more than a verbal twist. If you look up "Darwinism" in the dictionary, it mentions "theory". A theory, like a hypothesis, is a conceptual framework to test systematically by experiment. One such experiment might be to C14 date a fossil. This type of experimentation is not applicable to creationism, so creationism is not a science. It is religion.

      To be perfectly symmetrical with "creationism", we would have to say "evolutionism", which connotes a system of belief. To actually acknowledge creationism as an opposing "theory" is pandering. Even worse than acknowledging creationism through argumentation is modifying our perfectly good vocabulary for describing scientific theories.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    4. Re:Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by gilroy · · Score: 2, Informative

      To continue to label modern evolutionary theory as 'Darwinism' walks into a creationist trap

      Actually, to pretend that scientists refer to evolutionary theory as "Darwinism" is walking into the creationist trap, since (in my experience, at least) only creationists refer to it that way. Scientists refer to evolution as, well, evolution.

    5. Re:Bull. Did Newton have to die for Einstein? by tbannist · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well that is what we Intelligent Falling people call gravity.

      I mean Newtonism is obviously false. When I put an apple on a shelf way up high, it never hits the ground. There. Irrevocable proof that Newtonism is nothing but scientific mumbo jumbo made up the scienticians to lead young Christian children into their dens of Santanism they trickily call "schools".

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
  4. I sit here in a cafe by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I sit here in this cafe, drinking a latte and typing on my laptop computer. Both the latte and the PC are hot, one from being prepared that way, the other as a result of internal processes. Both are hot as I have defined them.

    Does the fact that one requires an external entity to prepare it make it any less hot than the one that becomes hot of its own accord?

    1. Re:I sit here in a cafe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You sure live up to your name.

    2. Re:I sit here in a cafe by srussia · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think he did better than that. Dude deserves a nick upgrade to "BadKoanGuy".

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
  5. Last time I checked by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Newtonian physics/mechanics is in common usage and although there's no 'Einstienian", there is the term 'relativistic' applied to the branch of physics he's most famous for

  6. What ? by drsmithy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only people who go on and on ad nauseum about "Darwinism", as if it were the be-all and end-all of Evolutionary Theory, are the Creationists.

    The reason no-one talks about "Newtonism" or "Eisteinism" is because neither of those things threaten the basis behind the belief systems of a significant chunk of the planet (and therefore the power weilded by the people behind them). Why waste time attacking something you couldn't care less about ?

    1. Re:What ? by WegianWarrior · · Score: 4, Insightful

      THIS! A hundred time THIS!

      And let me add that in my experience, 99% of all people who calls the scientific theory of evolution for "Darwinism" is from the US, just like a large majority of the hardline creationists...

      The rest of the western world seems happy enought to accept that the theory of evolution fits the known facts and is a valid scientific theory, just as they accept that religion - while nice - has naught to do in science class.

      Blame the US education system I guess...

      --
      Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
    2. Re:What ? by PinkyDead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Absolutely.

      Another reason creationists refer to Darwinism is that it sets them up for an Ad Hominum attack.

      Darwin was a slightly flawed individual, living as he was in a time when social values were "Victorian". He would naturally had a view of the world that was somewhat tainted by a patriarchal society that was imperial, sexist and racist. And creationists are often found to be using this as evidence against his theories.

      As well as this, the writing of his time, even scientific writing, was colourful and designed to compel as well as convince. We see this being used against him all the time with the popular "Darwin didn't even believe the eye could have evolved" nonsense.

      Add to this his famous "death bed conversion" - no matter how much the evidence contradicts this - and you have a neatly sewn up package.

      Of course, being an Ad Hominum, it would matter not a jot even if Darwin became the archbishop of Canterbury and then shagged the queen - the theory of evolution (in its current form) is the best description available for the origin of the species on this planet.

      --
      Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
    3. Re:What ? by Xest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I said in another post elsewhere it's irrelevant anyway. If we didn't have Darwinism we'd get creationists calling it something like "Creation Theory" to give it an air of undeserved authenticity.

      They'll always find something to twist to suit their goals.

  7. do scientists actually call it Darwinism? by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I could be hanging out with the wrong scientists, but I rarely hear anyone describe what they work on as "Darwinism". There are "evolutionary biologists", who research evolution, not Darwinism. The well-accepted name for the process is evolution, and as far as I can tell nobody calls the idea Darwinism, though Darwin is widely credited as having had an important early role in its development.

    We do actually speak of Newtonian mechanics, for what it's worth. Probably more than anyone in science actually speaks of Darwinian evolution. So we've sort of already done what this guy is asking for, it seems?

    1. Re:do scientists actually call it Darwinism? by jabithew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've only ever heard evolution described as evolution. The only people I've heard talking about 'Darwinism' are:
      -Scientists talking about the historical theory
      -Creationists
      -The occasional truly ignorant journalist.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    2. Re:do scientists actually call it Darwinism? by Vornzog · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only reason a scientist is going to talk about Darwinian evolution is to understand how the current theories of evolution came about. Science is a process, and all theories are subject to change if they don't fit the observed evidence. The progression goes something like this:

      Lamarckian evolution - The idea that a parent could pass its characteristics on to its offspring. The most common (overly simplistic) example given is that a short-necked ancestor to the giraffe wanted to eat leaves, so it stretched out its neck, and all of its offspring had longer necks as well. No one believes this any more, because we have never observed it.

      Weismann's germ plasm theory (favored by Darwin) helped to debunk Lamarckian evolution. It said that characteristics of somatic cells acquired during life could not be passed on to offspring - only mutations in germ cells (eggs, sperm) could. His ideas also predict the idea of an offspring getting two copies of each gene, one from each parent.

      Darwinian evolution was the idea that the most fit members of a species tended to survive and reproduce. This has turned out to be a very good theory, in so far as it goes. It doesn't really provide much insight into mechanisms, but the basic observation has withstood the test of time. So, while this does provide the basis for modern theories of evolution, it is woefully incomplete. Talking about 'Darwinism' as the be-all, end-all of evolution is to stop at this point - which most fundamentalists would love to do. It makes it easier to attack evolution when you forget the next 150 years of progress.

      Mendelian genetics was the insight into mechanisms by which traits might be inherited. Mendel breed pea plants and carefully observed phenotypes of the offspring relative to the parents. This leads to the basic idea of dominant and recessive traits.

      Modern synthesis was the culmination of work by many biologist that finally gelled evolution into a the coherent theories we know today. It accounts for a genetic mechanism for evolution, selection as the main driver of genetic change in a population, and the need for genetic diversity in populations.

      A few years after modern synthesis had come into its own, Watson and Crick (and Rosalind Franklin) figured out the structure and pairing rules for DNA, opening the door for a molecular level understanding of evolution.

      Crick would go on to posit the central dogma of molecular biology, DNA <--> RNA --> proteins. This forms the core of modern thinking about evolution at a molecular level, while modern synthesis helps us to understand population genetics.

      Again, as far as these theories go, they make testable predictions and failed to be disproved experiment after experiment (you can't every prove science - only disprove a theory by offering contradictory evidence).

      These theories are still incomplete. It turns out that many of the interactions that Crick said would never happen as part of the central dogma do, in fact, happen. Prions are an instance of a trait (related to a protein structure in this case) being passed directly from protein to protein. This doesn't invalidate the central dogma, it just shows that our understanding of inheritance mechanisms is incomplete.

      Similarly, while natural selection is the primary driver of evolution, it is not the only one. Genetic drift theory describes how individual traits move through the population. Neutral evolution describes the process of changes at the genetic level that do not change the amino acid that a gene codes for, but may still have some impact on the fitness of the species.

      So yeah, 'Darwinism' fails to explain all sorts of things that we observe in the world around us. Modern evolutionary theories do a better job, but any scientist worth his salt will tell you that we don't know everything yet, and there are still holes to filled. And the only people who refer to Darwinism are those trying to understand history, or those desperate to cling to their own spec

      --

      -V-

      Who can decide a priori? Nobody.
      -Sartre

    3. Re:do scientists actually call it Darwinism? by Ren.Tamek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The well-accepted name for the process is evolution

      Darwin hated using 'evolution' as the shorthand for his theory. Evolution was the result. The mechanism that causes evolution was Natural Selection. He called it Evolution by the process of Natural Selection, or just Natural Selection for short. He predicted that people would misunderstand the term if the mechanism of his theory was not made the focus of discussion. How right he was.

      Here is a picture of the front cover of his most famous work. The word 'evolution' does not even appear.

      --
      "If you want a vision of the future, Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever." - George Orwell, 1984
  8. I beg your pardon? by Schiphol · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think many popular science writers, or whoever it is that shapes the public understanding of scientific issues, have read, let alone endorse, The Origin of Species. It is truer that most of them do endorse the so-called Modern Synthesis, a synthesis between evolution-theoretic ideas and genetics, which cristallised around the mid-40s and is, arguably, not the last word in the theory of evolution. But I don't see how having Darwin's name associated -in all justice- to the Modern Synthesis cluster is any more harmful to the theory than having Einstein's name associated -in all justice- to the theory of relativity.

    On the other hand, from TFA:

    "Using phrases like "Darwinian selection" or "Darwinian evolution" implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective. For instance, "Newtonian physics" distinguishes the mechanical physics Newton explored from subatomic quantum physics. So "Darwinian evolution" raises a question: What's the other evolution?

    Into the breach: intelligent design."

    Of course. This is just as it should be. Intelligent design is a powerful source of evolution. Or how does the writer think Airbuses emerged from the Wright brothers' prototype? The passage I just quoted implies that there is no legitimate evolution that is not Darwinian. This is plain silly.

    1. Re:I beg your pardon? by SirClicksalot · · Score: 2, Informative

      So "Darwinian evolution" raises a question: What's the other evolution?

      Other evolutionary systems have been proposed. Before Darwin came along Lamarck formulated his own theory of evolution. The main difference with Darwinian evolution is that Lamarckian evolution supposes inheritance of characteristics acquired during the life time of the organisms. See wikipedia

      --
      It is not so much that I have confidence in scientists being right, but that I have so much in nonscientists being wrong
    2. Re:I beg your pardon? by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or how does the writer think Airbuses emerged from the Wright brothers' prototype?

      I'm pretty sure we're talking about biology here, not aeronautical engineering.

      The passage I just quoted implies that there is no legitimate evolution that is not Darwinian.

      What it implies is that there isn't a distinct alternative to "Darwinian evolution". Evolution as it's understood today is an improvement on Evolution as posited by Darwin rather than a distinct theory (as in the Newtonian/Quantum example).

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    3. Re:I beg your pardon? by thepotoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm pretty sure we're talking about biology here, not aeronautical engineering.

      Good call.

      To have evolution you need to have phenotypic variation in a population, variation in fitness for different phenotypes, and some degree of heritability for different phenotypes. Aeronautical engineering has two of these things, but does not reproduce, therefore it is not evolution.

      However, there is an "alternative" to natural selection [defined as animals get better adapted to their environment across generations].

      This alternative is artificial selection, or selective breeding. Rather than letting nature pick the best phenotypes to reproduce, we select characteristics that we like (they may not have a high fitness in the wild) and breed them. That's still considered evolution, just not Darwinian selection. It's about as close to ID as you're going to get until we can make designer bacteria.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    4. Re:I beg your pardon? by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So Lamarckian evolution, while not usefully applied to physiology, could be a good model for knowledge evolution.

  9. Re:He didn't propose a "theory" in the strict sens by drsmithy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Darwin didn't have a true theory because the idea he had had no predictive power and little explanatory power, therefore was inherently untestable and not able to be used to answer questions. He wasn't aware of DNA, genes or chromosomes.

    Arguably his hypotheseses were quite testable - just not by the science and technology of the time.

    Also, not understanding the underlying mechanics of a system does not automatically invalidate a theory explaining them. Exhibit A: Gravity.

  10. Semantics by Now15 · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is an issue of semantics, and of marketing strategy. A rose by any other name ... still evolved from its Rosoideae anscestors in the wild fields of Asia.

    --

    Computers are useless: they can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso
  11. Huh? by glwtta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but these days the term "Darwinism" refers to a 19th century understanding of evolution, specifically to distinguish it from modern evolutionary theory.

    The only people who use "Darwinism" to mean "theory of evolution" are creationists.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  12. Education must improve rather. by Daemonax · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A quite skim over the article. It's rubbish. That Darwin distracts from all the others who have helped strengthen our understanding of how the variety of life on the planet came to be, I'll accept that.
    That 'Darwinism' must die so people can understand evolution? That's just bollocks.
    Education must simply improve, and ignorance should never be tolerated.

  13. Changing the name of something to make it palpable by XahXhaX · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is a good idea. Just ask any proponent of creati...err...intelligent design.

  14. Darwin deserves his credit. by Yuuki+Dasu · · Score: 2, Informative

    A lot of other people have torn to pieces the idea that we really call it "Darwinism" in meaningful discourse. They're pretty right. Our understanding of evolution has, err, evolved, over the years since he first propounded his theory.

    That said, he laid the foundations for evolutionary biology, and deserves to leave his name in history a bit. If you've never read The Origin of Species, give it a shot. It's a solid work, and quite accessible. His application of the scientific method should be a case study for all scientists.

    For any interested, there's a pretty good article about him over at the International Herald Tribune at the moment.

  15. Re:He didn't propose a "theory" in the strict sens by Crookdotter · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Darwin did make predictions based on his observations. He observed a flower with an extremely long distance to it's store of nectar, up to a metre if I recall. He predicted a wierd kind of insect (maybe a moth) that must have a massive, metre long tongue to drink the nectar as an example of the two organisms evolving together. The moth was observed and catalogued about 20 years later if I remember right.

  16. Doh... by Genda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm really sorry anyone is comparing any scientific idea to "Creationism" or the current flavor of the month "Intelligent Design" which from every angle I can see is neither. Evolution as a general study covers everything from punctuated equilibrium, to impact of ionizing radiation on nucleotides. There must be dozens, maybe hundreds of different disciplines, technologies, framed of reference, scientific venues, and interrelated studies. This would be like comparing a sequoia to a blade of astro-turf, and arguing they are equal because they are both green.

    Creationism is a belief system in search of evidence to justify it's validity. This someone opening a box of puzzle pieces, cutting all the none conforming bits off the pieces, and forcing them into some semblance of a presupposed picture. In short this is a mental illness. It is someone who places more importance in the way they want things to be, than the way they in fact are. This is magical thinking. Most human beings develop beyond this level of function at about the age of 10. It is no more ludicrous than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

    The nature of science is you have an idea. You test it against the world. If the data doesn't match the theory, the theory is wrong, and you need to rethink it. No handpicking data to match your theory. Scientist who do that are called frauds, and lose the respect and recognition of their peers almost instantly. This isn't to say that there isn't belief, politics, and hubris among scientists. It's hard to ignore human foibles, but at least one can account for them. Magical thinking doesn't even try. Those same foibles are point and purpose to magical thinking, and any truth that happens there is purely coincidental.

    1. Re:Doh... by SpinyNorman · · Score: 2

      DNA (which wasn't known at the time that Darwin THEORIZED that something like it must exist) is a FACT.

      Given DNA (and natural variation, which goes hand-in-hand with sexual reproduction and a number of other variety-producing mechanisms) you're going to have each generation being similar to, but slightly different from, the preceding one.

      One might as well stop there and realize that the discovery of DNA equals the FACT of evolution, but for any creationist numskulls who can't take it the final step, let's note that when my kids (or rather my population's kids) compete with yours then there'll be winners and losers, and we dub the winners to have been "fitter" (better suited to thrive given the prevailing environmental and competetive landscape), as in (preferential) "survival of the fittest".

      Maybe the real problem creationists have in accepting evolution as a fact is some PC rejection of the fact that there are winners and losers - those who's genetics give them a leg-up in life? Nah... they are just sore losers who are hung up on the 19thC "Theory of Evolution" tag that was superceded in reality by the discovery of DNA.

  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Dracil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nice copy paste. Then again, that's typical Creationist behavior. No wonder you had to AC this.

  19. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's a lot of words to say "I'm a religious nutball".

    Nice try, I guess. Problem is, you base the entire tirade on "a theory must provide a way to be falsified, and evolution does not". That's a made-up requirement. A theory makes predictions. The method of falsification is when one of its predictions is shown inaccurate. Take survival of the fittest, for example. It's a bit of a chore to do tests, but go buy yourself a fruit fly farm and get to it. You have your method of falsification right there. Of course, creationists do generally not actually understand the completely random element in evolution. They cannot seem to fathom it. So odds are you'll make all the wrong requirements and assumptions there as well. Probably expecting a brand new species to pop out of it or something.

    On a lighter note, I find it hilarious that you manage to say this "While he has evidence that the car is red by way of personal testimony, he has no way of confirming if this is true or false, since he might have been lied to, regardless if he was or not", then finish off with swearing loyalty to a thousands of years old book full of hearsay.

  20. Actually, strictly speaking it wasn't by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, it _still_ isn't testable, since it has idiocies like "sexual selection" tacked on to it as a catch-all for everything it couldn't actually explain. (Why did the peacock evolve such a big and handicapping tail? Hur-hur-hur, to impress women, Beavis.)

    The problem is that no matter how you slice it, it proposes that an organism can also evolve towards _less_ fit, i.e., that sometimes natural selection works against the logical direction or in some random direction. You can't falsify something with such a catch-all clause. It predicts that something will get more fit for the environment... except in the unpredictable cases where it actually evolves to be less fit.

    It's like saying that gravity makes bodies attract each other... except when they repulse each other, or make each other move in a random direction. That's not falsifiable, i.e., plain old not science.

    Why do I call it idiotic?

    A) Because it handwaves away half the problem. Ok, so male peacocks evolved so to impress the females. But why did females evolve that trait then? Going strictly natural selection, if that tail were indeed a disadvantage, some females would be randomly born with a preferrence for smaller tails and mate with males with smaller tails, their children would have less of a disadvantage, repeat. So natural selection would guide things towards removing that handicap anyway.

    Just because sex is involved in selecting that, it doesn't mean it is the only factor or evolutionary pressure. If it were a disadvantage for males, then natural selection among _females_ would phase it out.

    B) Because it doesn't even try to see if there's another advantage to that. It's a catch-all "I don't know why it's like that, so it must be about sex." And I mean other disadvantages like:

    - disruptive camouflage. Just because for the advanced image recognition circuitry of a primate something stands out like a sore thumb, it doesn't mean it's like that for other species too. E.g., an orange tabby tomcat is actually very well camouflaged for its prey, because its many lines prevent a mouse's simple circuitry from figuring out the shape of the cat. E.g., the lines of the zebras are a nightmare for lions.

    A peacock's tail's patterns would be a right nightmare for many species of predators.

    - apparent size. Most animals don't have the circuitry to really figure out the real size of an opponent, so a bigger total shape means a bigger animal. E.g., there's a reason why your cat puffs up and turns sideways when it tries to scare off a potential enemy. For your advanced brain it's the same cat, but for another cat it's "whoa, it just got a lot larger." E.g., just putting a tophat on a kid makes him/her look like a less tempting prey to a hyena, because it looks bigger.

    A peacock's tail makes it look freaking big. A lot of the smaller predators would be a lot less inclined to mess with it.

    - protecting one's young and females. Many species essentially take a personal risk to try to lure a predator away from their children. Even a personal disadvantage can be an evolutionary advantage if it helps save your kids.

    - aposematism. Sometimes you want to make yourself visible as an easily recognizable warning. E.g., see ladibugs being that brightly coloured. It was actually an evolutionary advantage to make sure that whatever bird tasted a ladybug once, can easily recognize and avoid others.

    But here's the fun part: sometimes it's an evolutionary advantage to imitate such a species. If the predators already are "trained" to avoid species X, it can be an advantage to look like species X although you don't have the same defenses.

    So the peacock could have simply evolved to look like _something_ that the predators would rather avoid. E.g., to show a bigger version of a pattern of a more dangerous predator, or of a toxic/stinging plant that everybody avoids, etc.

    - changing conditions. Just because something looks like a pure disadvantage to you now, it could have been an advantage against

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Actually, strictly speaking it wasn't by DriedClexler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have to agree with you. Whatever else is scientific about the theory of evolution, in the matters you discussed, it is not. I have made the same criticism myself, though obviously not in the academy.

      I don't think you responsed to the mainstream explanation for peacock's tails though (taken from the Wikipedia "Handicap principle" article): The large tail is a signaling mechanism. It says, "look, I can survive ... even with this big tail dragging me down". Thus, what the peacock loses in agility, it gains in being able to send accurate fitness signals and thus weed out those with less robust survival mechanism.

      This explanation has been applied to human contexts, like bungie jumping, dangerous jobs, and the "Ghetto caddy": basically, despite their danger, they give the appearance of being able to survive against overwhelming odds, which serves as a fitness signal, and thus women would be evolved to be attracted to it. Supposedly, this is also why holding your hands up in front of you (ready to defend) makes women uneasy.

      But where I basically agree with you is that, in proposing such an explanation, you destroy the explanatory power of evolution. The handicap principle allows you to "explain" literally any feature: either it helps the organism survive, or it helps the organism signal how it can survive even when burdened. This permits anything, so it explains nothing.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  21. Nobody read him actually by horli · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem with Darwin is that nobody actually read his books but everybody is talking about him. Therefore he is one of the most misunderstood man in history.
    It is the same with Slashdot, everybody comments on stories they didn't read. Including me right now :-)

  22. *Believing* isn't the correct verb by DrYak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They do believe in natural selection obviously, since you can't make predictions (hence, do any science at all) from ID.

    From a strict technical, linguistic-nazi, point of view : they don't *believe in* natural selection, they *believe that natural selection is an useful model they can use*.

    Usually the phrase *believe in* implies some form of faith.
    Whereas scientist *just pick up* a model they consider the best for the situation, based on how much usable it is for making accurate predictions.
    No faith required.

    But apart from the nit-picking about words, I agree with you : ID is useless because its principle simply contradict the way science work - it's not a model you can use to make any useful prediction at all.

    Sometimes deprecated model are used because they are accurate enough in a simpler subset of problems : Newton's physic is simpler to use than Einstein's, yet still good enough at low energy/speed/mass.

    In the case of evolution and natural selection, the model is currently still the best one, considering the tons of additional material that has been added to it.
    And considering the fact that each time a completely brand new branch of biology appears (like genetics), the data produced results still in accordance to what would expect when using the evolution and natural selection models.

    Currently that's the best model we have and a better one has yet to come.

    ID is no possible contender, as its fundamental principle aren't scientific : scientific model are made to be used to make prediction, and to model the world in order to understand it better. ID tells us that everything is done on the will of some higher being (and thus nothing could be predicted) and some things are just too complex to be explainable (and thus you can't model the world).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:*Believing* isn't the correct verb by ultranova · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Usually the phrase *believe in* implies some form of faith.
      Whereas scientist *just pick up* a model they consider the best for the situation, based on how much usable it is for making accurate predictions.
      No faith required.

      This is utter rubbish. The people running the Large Hadron Collider believe that hadrons really exist as actual tangible particles rather than mere mathematical models and really collide inside the collider (or would if the darn thing worked). The astronomers believe that there really was an Earth-shattering kaboom at the beginning. And biologists believe that species really evolved from slime sitting on ocean waves to slime sitting on corporate boards.

      There's a difference between healthy scepticism and insane paranoia. Confusing the two and implying the latter is some kind of scientific ideal will do nothing but make the general populace see scientists as lunatics. And making patently absurd claims like "no faith required" - Really? Then how do you build those models if you have no faith in logic or your observations? - might make for nice soundbites but will make you sound like an arrogant megalomaniac as soon as someone starts analyzing them a little deeper.

      The basic problem seems to be that "faith" has become associated with religion, despite being a necessary and unavoidable component of everything a non-omniscient being does, and religion has for whatever reason been painted as the antithesis of science, from which a conclusion that they can't have anything in common has been drawn. Consequently, some people feel the need to defend the "purity" of science against such horrible accusations as scientists having faith; in extreme cases not even religious faith but faith in anything, even the reality of whatever they're examining. This whole thing is slowly but surely becoming a farce.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    2. Re:*Believing* isn't the correct verb by Alarindris · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a dialogue from when I was about 10 or so, and was religious because I didn't know any better.

      Friend1: Do you believe in god?
      Me: Yep.
      Friend: Do you think the devil is real?
      Me: Yeah, I believe in the devil.
      Friend2: You believe in the devil?!
      Me: Yeah, it's in the bible...
      Friend1: You can't believe in god AND the devil!
      Me: What?
      Friend2: You just said you believed in the devil!

      And unfortunately, this fucking "believe in" vaguery (if that's a word) nonsense still means something to people. It seems that most (and I mean 99.999% of people, including me) just seem to string together nearly meaningless and incorrect phrases and call it language, thereby completely undermining rational thought.

      Semantics can kill rational thought somehow.

    3. Re:*Believing* isn't the correct verb by Baron+Eekman · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Actually, GP was spot on.

      Scientists don't believe in evolution, they see it confirmed over and over again, so accept it as a very good theory. Therefore religion is not an alternative for evolution, it's a whole different game.

      Nobody will oppose that "there are particles", but what a particle actually is, no one can really say.

      I work in quantum physics, and to me, an electron is just a bunch of so-called quantum numbers, such as mass, electric charge etc.

    4. Re:*Believing* isn't the correct verb by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that if the people running the Large Hadron Collider did not believe that hadrons do not exist as real tangible particles and are just mathematical models and do not really collide then the experiments done thus far would have exactly the same results ... It does not matter what you believe the results are the same ....

      If you do not have believe in your model (i.e. you do not have faith that is a good model and probably correct, or at least more correct then the alternatives) then you are unlikely to pursue it but if it *is* right (or at least more correct than the alternatives) then it will work anyway

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    5. Re:*Believing* isn't the correct verb by Tristfardd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you say "ID is useless because its principle simply contradict the way science work - it's not a model you can use to make any useful prediction at all.", you come to the crux of the problem. Science looks at reality through a type of glasses that only see things that are repeatable. If today on your way into work a bird smashed into your windshield, made a bloody mess the windshield wipers only made worse, you pulled over, and before you could fully stop the bird straightened its neck, staggered erect, and flew away, what would you think? Birds don't do this. There is still blood on your windshield. Eventually rain and car washes remove it. Did it really happen? Twenty years from now would you believed it happened or would you think you had been mistaken? Would you tell others? The glasses science uses to view reality don't see things like this. It is not as if science could not work in such a reality. If one magical thing happened to each person once a year, science could easily go about it merry way. Another thing the scientific glasses do not see is free will. In this case, though, those using the glasses refuse to live their lives based on what they see. They speak of responsibility, but if free will does not exist, then neither does responsibility. Science is wonderful stuff, just limited. Many scientists understand this, many worshipers of science do not.

  23. Exactly by Fungii · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He adds that nobody talks about Newtonism or Einsteinism

    No one talks about "Darwinism" except the creationists. The reasons he gives are exactly the reasons they invented the term - it's far easier to discredit a dead guy from 100 years ago than it is a scientific concept.

    By making it seem like the work of one man with millions of blind followers it appears more fallible.

    Their tactics are pretty ironic really.

    1. Re:Exactly by Ersatz+Chickenweed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      +1 Insightful

      The creationists are doing their best to do to the word "Darwin" what the right-wingers successfully did to the term "liberal" in America: turn it into nothing but an off-the-cuff epithet for their bovine followers.

      Of course, by doing this the word loses pretty much any real meaning to anyone else, but that's beside the point (or maybe that IS the point).

  24. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by xouumalperxe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Also, other, bigger scale "experiments" over evolution have been made and passed: astronomers at the time rejected the idea of evolution because the earth couldn't possibly have been around for long enough to allow the process to take as long as suggested. Of course, that statement was based on the idea that the sun was a ball of fire (ie, combustion) and there wasn't enough fuel in there to make the fire burn that long. When the two scientific theories were put against each other, astronomy lost: they eventually figured out that stars work with nuclear processes and, therefore, last that much longer.

  25. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by mirkob · · Score: 3, Informative

    unfortunately i can't muster enough stamina to read all the statement form this AC, but if he whant an example of evolution he should read this

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

    an article about an evolution of a new genetic trait in bacteria, and it is a reproducible experiment!

    that perhaps prove evolution?

  26. Dumb idea by jw3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Allow me just a few points. BTW I am an evolutionary biologist. Carl Safina, with all due respect, is not.

    First, let's get one thing straight that the author of the article confuses. "Evolution" is the observation that all living things seem to be related, plus the observation of the change of the living world in time. This observations are older than Darwin. "Theory of evolution" is any theory that tries to explain this observation. "Neodarwinism" or "Synthetic Theory of Evolution" is one particular theory that involves the mechanism called "natural selection". Natural selection is a mechanism that can be observed. Darwin's greatness was in linking this mechanism to the rise and change in complexity of all living things, and in the ability to foresee the consequences that only recently started being fully understood.

    1) "Equating evolution with Charles Darwin ignores 150 years of discoveries"

        First, nowadays formally we use the terms "neodarwinism" or "synthetic theory of evolution". "Darwinism" is most often used in certain popular (non-scientific) texts, and also by creationists.

    2) "Using phrases like Darwinian selection or Darwinian evolution implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective."

          Well, of course, as any of my students would immediately ask "what about lamarckian evolution?" (an alternative explanation for the process of evolution, largely rejected or falsified by observations)

    3) "And isms (capitalism, Catholicism, racism) are not science."

    Yeah, right, like electromagnetism, empiricism or autism.

    4) "What Darwin had to say about evolution basically begins and ends right there."

    If this only was so simple. Darwin, as I mentioned before, not only proposed natural selection as an important mechanism of evolution, but also was able to point out the consequences, ranging from kin selection to the role of sexual reproduction.

    5) Do you really believe that creationists would less fiercely attack a "synthetic theory of evolution"? The problem is much, much deeper than just an association or a given name.

    Cheers,
    j.

    1. Re:Dumb idea by cpurrin1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      For those who might think that Darwinism was an invention of Creationists that made fun of some new obsession with Darwin, I offer a photograph up as counter-evidence: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cpurrin1/315328560/ Colin Purrington

  27. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Solarch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Two seconds on google shows this is a copy-and-paste almost 9 months old. Original content, please.

    http://talkingtotheists.blogspot.com/2008/05/story-thus-far-noted-youtube.html

    Let's poke some holes in your argument though, even though I'm sure you won't be back, it may serve as an amusement for slashdotters and a deterrent for more of your ilk with their recycled arguments.

    1)Your first argument that in order for a theory to be considered valid that it must be proven "not false" is patently untrue.

    When a scientific hypothesis becomes a scientific theory it is because all evidence to that point provides overwhelming support for the hypothesis. Redefining what science is not a justification for an argument, and invalidates most of your following reasoning. A theory is a theory not because experiments prove it "true" or even "not false", but because experiments have failed to prove it false.

    2) If your blue watermelon example were a proper scientific hypothesis, it could be disproven, because a requirement of a scientific hypothesis is that it must be disprovable (and not necessarily provable). Add in your hypothesis of why it turns red when opened, and you have a true scientific, disprovable, hypothesis. (I'd open it under argon because if that were the case, rapid oxidation would most likely be the cause).

    3) Quote:If evolution be not true, the only explanation for the appearance of varied life on the planet is intelligent design.

    A scientific hypothesis or experiment does NOT pose an ultimatum like this. Science is not an either/or endeavor. It is a pursuit of truth, with each experiment leaving a puzzle piece.

    4) Quote:Evolution states by addition of new traits (new organs, new anatomy)....since detrimental or beneficial mutations are only alterations of already existing traits, and can not account for an increase in the number of traits any given life form possesses.

    I'm going to take a red car, and over the process of 10000 coats paint it slightly darker red each time. At the end,it will be black. I will then show you a picture of the original car. Will they look the same?

    I also point you to the origin of mitochondria in eukaryotic cells. Any microbiologist or decent microbiology text will show that they were obtained, rather quickly, by endocytosis, and altered by the cell to work for it.

    4) Quote:Evolution theory would predict that the process of gradual change and increase in traits is an ongoing process, and therefore should be observable in todays living animals and plants

    It is very convenient how you leave out bacteria, which have been proven over and over again to evolve on an observable timescale.

    5) Quote:A kind is the original prototype of any ancestral line

    I won't even go into how uncouth it is to define your own terms in an argument. However, as evolution is a slow process (and you use it in your argument and thus cannot come back and say that you disagree), where would you draw the line of a "prototype"? The transition of species from a common ancestor is a gradient, not a series of steps.

    6) My final argument.

    Quote:If no such common ancestor can be found and confirmed without bias

    That one statement says more than enough.If someone's logic trumps your own, you will cry "bias". Quite simply, that makes it "not false" that you are not a scientist.

    - Sol

  28. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Find a fossil that doesn't fit the record. You show us a 200 million year old fossilized Koala..

  29. Re:Maybe I didn't explain it well enough by amRadioHed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok, that makes more sense then. However, I'm not sure that the standard view of sexual selection is that the feathers are a disadvantage that just happen to impress females. As you said, if the tail was a disadvantage that would seem absurd.

    What do you think is wrong with the more likely scenario that the tail is neutral to survival, while at the same time being preferred by females thus giving the male a reproductive advantage. I don't know what the peafowl's habitat is like, but the somewhat awkward creature could thrive due to a lack of natural predators. After all, the tail doesn't prevent the bird from flying, and flying is always a strong defense. The females preference could also have a logical basis since individuals that are healthy and well-fed would be better able to produce an extravagant tail.

    It's also possible that the tail could have multiple purposes. It could have one of the survival advantages as you outlined so well above as well as the reproductive advantage from sexual selection. There's no reason it has to be only one or the other, is there?

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  30. Marxism by zarlino · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Darwinism implies an ideology adhering to one man's dictates, like Marxism, says Safina

    Yes that's correct. Nonetheless there is a reason one still refers to "Marxism": While biologists accepted Darwin's fundamental discoveries and built on them, social and economic sciences spent the last century trying to refute Marx's theories. Theories that do represent a good model to understand our society.

    --
    Check out my cross-platform apps
    1. Re:Marxism by demon+driver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right. And, and there Safina is simply wrong, Marxism is not "one man's dictate", although it was made to something like that in the socialist dictatorships misusing and abusing it.

      Most of Marxism is simply a kind of scientific, socio-economic analysis. Even today many economists admit that Marx' magnum opus does a great job in explaining capitalist economy (and its shortcomings).

  31. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by digitig · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Any theory that can not explain how to both validate and falsify its claims in this manner can not be taken seriously.

    Carl Popper thoroughly dismantled that idea in his 1935 book "Logic der Forschung". You should try reading it; the English translation of the main text is quite accessible. Looking at the problems you have with logic you may struggle with some of the appendices, but they're not necessary for the main argument. It may help bring your thinking from the 19th to the 20th century. Incidentally, I am aware about the controversy in science regarding falsification, but it doesn't apply here -- I'm not aware of any serious scientists who claim that what Popper described isn't science (isn't to "be taken seriously"); the controversy is whether Popper's method is the only thing science is.

    Unfortunately, Darwin never properly demonstrated how to falsify his theory, which means evolution has not properly been proven

    A perfect illustration of what the RA was saying. You think the claim that Darwin didn't do it is the same as the claim that it hasn't been done. You think work stopped on the subject 150 years ago.

    As said before; if something is not false, it must therefore be true

    That's not what you said before. What you said before was "if it can be shown that something is not false, it must therefore be true" (my emphasis), which is a completely different statement.

    The whole issue of what is valid science and what isn't is a fascinating one, and you touch on some important issues, but you bury them in such sloppy logic it's no wonder you've been modded down. If you really care about this stuff -- and it seems you do -- then, seriously, take a philosophy 101 course where they'll teach you the basics of how to put an argument together (and how to take one apart.

    For the moment, it might be worth a look at this article, which addresses some of the issues you raise and describes more current thinking on those issues (although it's a bit unfair to Popper: it claims that "One thing [Kuhn, Feyerabend and Lakatos] thought in opposition to Popper - there was no point that could be ruled off as the dividing line between 'rational' science and 'non-rational' non-science." In fact, Popper argued the same thing: "My criterion of demarcation will accordingly have to be regarded as a proposal for an agreement or convention" (Carl Popper, "The Logic of Scientific Discovery", Routledge Classics 2002, p15, author's emphasis) -- in other words Popper doesn't believe the dividing line to be absolute either).

    Come back when you can discuss coherently the 21st century questions about the relationship between evolutionary theory and the scientific method, instead of the 19th century questions.

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  32. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by jackbird · · Score: 5, Informative

    Lungfish? Manatees? Feathered dinosaurs? Egg-laying marsupials? Darwin's own Galapagos Finches? That argument is silly, because it glosses over the fact that these processes happen on a timescale we can't observe.

  33. Thomas Kuhn would sigh in relief by smchris · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Instead of the classic vulgar misreading of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions in which this and that scientific principle is "just a theory" ("So why can't I call creationism _my_ theory?"), this is what he was writing about -- periodically changing the paradigm of thought to one that melds better with the sum of current observations. In short, a good idea that is more about the culture of science surrounding evolution.

  34. It's Evolution, Baby! by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It's disappointing to see reason slow filtered out of this debate and be replaced with ignorance. What is interesting is to see the political deception creep into Catholic doctrine over the years... Darwin's theory of evolution compatible with Christian Faith - 1996 conservative Catholics do indeed have growing doubts about the teaching of Darwin - 2006 Evolution has not been "scientifically" proven - 2007

    However at least the Catholic church isn't dismissing the idea's, which is a long way from the outright attacks made by more fundamentalist churches. The thing about this debate is that while fundamental theist's attack science and the theory of evolution using doubt, no counter-argument is made that has any impact on the faith of proponents of Intelligent Design.

    Science and Religion are different bodies of knowledge, but not mutually exclusive because both use reason as a tool for different goals. There are scientific people who are religious and religious people who are scientific. Making a science based argument about the ignorance of Intelligent Design to someone who has a predominately religious background make both sides dig their heals in. That's why this debate has become so polarised.

    I've found that having an understanding of the doctrine that supports scientific investigation and framing that discussion so that it attacks the underpinnings of Intelligent Design an important tool. Building and demonstrating an understanding of the theocratic aspects of this debate is an important tool to disarming the proponents of Intelligent Design and helping them understand why science is important to their faith.

    A scientific argument explaining the shortcomings of Intelligent Design to a religious person really just reveals their ignorance of science and, as such, they feel ignorant of science but it's not important to them.

    A theocratic argument explaining the shortcomings of Intelligent Design to a religious person reveals the shortcomings of Intelligent Design when compared to the discoveries made by a study of Evolution.

    When confronted with one of these discussions I point out that Intelligent Design limits how far humanity explores nature, or in theocratic terms "the works of God". I go on to point out that there is nothing in the Theory of evolution that attacks Christian beliefs but, in fact, uses science as a tool to uncover the amazing wonder of how nature works, or in theocratic terms "the glory of God".

    It's at this point that proponents of Intelligent Design start to join the dots for themselves. The insecurity they feel about Darwin's idea's attacking their belief system give way to the possibility that Intelligent Design could actually be a form of blasphemy, something that is important to a religious person.

    I think it's important to frame the debate this way because the Intelligent Design position cleverly deceives religious people into accepting ignorance over education and promotes the notion that science aims to dispel religion. Science and Religion have to co-exist in society if we are to dispel ignorance and fundamentalism.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:It's Evolution, Baby! by SpinyNorman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Science and Religion are different bodies of knowledge, but not mutually exclusive

      That's a politically correct lie used to avoid alienating religious folk (maybe even to avoid the cognitive dissonance of alientating yourself if you're a religious pseudo-scientist!).

      The fact is that science and religion really are, in at least one very core area, mutually exclusive.

      If something happens then it's either happening according to the laws of nature or it's not (maybe it's happening due to the intervention of god, or the flying spaghetti monster). It can't be both. Given that scientists believe that the laws of nature (as revealed by the scientific method) govern EVERYTHING that happens (with major reason - there's never, by definition, been any exception to any scientifically accepted theory), it means that science is incompatible with any notion of god other than a totally impotent one that can have no influence on your life, or anything else.

      So, science may be compatible with going to church, living the ten commandments, or whatever else you like to do, but it's not compatible with belief in a god that has any power in any domain covered by a scientific theory.

    2. Re:It's Evolution, Baby! by chihowa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Science and Religion are different bodies of knowledge, but not mutually exclusive

      So, science may be compatible with going to church, living the ten commandments, or whatever else you like to do, but it's not compatible with belief in a god that has any power in any domain covered by a scientific theory.

      This distinction is fine and the original statement is still true. Not all religions make assertions about the observable world, and only those that do (specifically the parts that do) are in conflict with science (which deals exclusively with what we can observe). Discussion of metaphysical concepts is (IMHO) the primary realm of religion and is in no way at odds with science. Belief (or disbelief) in these concepts doesn't clash with rational observation of our surroundings at all. Only the dogmatic aspects of religion conflict with a scientific worldview and these are exclusively the case for religious fundamentalism.

      As an aside, I'm a scientist (a chemist) and not religious, but these stupid fights coming from misunderstandings of the "opposing" side are ridiculous and I'm sick of hearing them. Pretending that every religious person is a fundamentalist lunatic is just as counterproductive as pretending that every scientist is a godless Darwinian atheist.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    3. Re:It's Evolution, Baby! by Slur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lots of religions and religious-minded people accept evolution, natural selection, and even biogenesis. The reason being, they regard the universe as a whole as being intrinsic to spirit, in a sense alive, even aware... but the conception of these things is tempered. The point is, the universe as it is is miraculous and amazing, and when you really dive into the mysteries of reality in situ there's no need to imagine that allegories like Genesis are literally true.

      And if you want a connection with the divine, the way has been explained over and over again by countless teachers and practitioners for those who care enough to apply it. But although even Jesus prescribed meditation, forgiveness, and somewhere in there - I hope - intellectual curiosity, the sort of people who reject science and evolution in favor of old myths are simply cultist ideologues. They're not what you might call open spiritually-inclined minds, and they're certainly not improved by their adherence to foolish literal beliefs.

      Those who still conceive of God as a powerful celestial being who observes, reflects, and modifies outcomes are holding on to an outmoded view, and perpetuating within themselves the very dualism they purport to abhor. Science does in fact undermine such outmoded conceptions of God, and challenges all of us to reconsider the nature of the universe, the scope of its "visceral concerns" over ideological ones, and our deep connection to the present.

      To use the Biblical language, science is the disciplinarian "Father" (and "son of Man") which tells us things we may not like, but which we must learn to accept in order to mature. And of course, there is much more to life than merely investigating and applying science. But if we want to dance into the night, isn't it nice that science has helped us to be warm, lighted, and dry while we twirl?

      --
      -- thinkyhead software and media
    4. Re:It's Evolution, Baby! by flaming+error · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > If something happens then it's either happening according to the
      > laws of nature or it's not... It can't be both... scientists believe
      > that the laws of nature govern EVERYTHING that happens

      Horseshit. Or if you prefer, the fallacy of false dichotomy. When a baseball player hits a ball, is that "according to the laws of nature"? What about a geneticist who tinkers with DNA and makes a glow-in-the-dark tomato? Did you post to Slashdot "according to the laws of nature"? It's a meaningless phrase.

      The phrase "scientists believe" makes my skin crawl. Scientists are fallible humans who use the scientific method to try to figure out what the laws of nature are. By bringing their "belief" into this you're committing exactly the kind of error the author complains of - framing the debate in a way that puts science and religion on linguistically equivalent footing.

      Science has a pretty good track record of figuring out how things work. Organized religion has a pretty good track record of telling people what to think, say, and do. There are lots of scientists who like to go by some particular roadmap or code of conduct, yet still manage to theorize, conduct experiments, and publish findings.

  35. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by jlar · · Score: 3, Funny

    By pure extrapolation slashdotters _will_ be able to live on pizzas and coke in approximately:

    25 years/generation * 40000 generations = 1 million years. Assuming of course that slashdotters reproduce.

  36. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Tacticus.v1 · · Score: 5, Insightful
  37. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by coastwalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Utter tosh, both the article and this comment. We refer to Newtonian mechanics and Einsteinian space time so why not Darwinian Evolution. As for creationism, its just another religious ideology and you either fight its proponents to the death or you let them kill you. Politics is not civilized and grown up and we still settle political (read religious) differences with war. Darwinian evolution does not need proof in the terms offered by this post because it is a theory not a law. We use it because its predictions work. Find a better theory and we will adopt it, otherwise shut the F up.

    --
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  38. Re:Maybe I didn't explain it well enough by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm _not_ against darwinism or natural selection. I'm just against the "sexual selection" cludge. That's all. Remove that kludge, and I'm perfectly content with Darwinism.

    It's not a "kludge". Some traits will, almost certainly, propagate solely due to them making the organism more attractive to a mate. Indeed, given that successful reproduction is the ultimate expression of "fitness", one would assume that traits existing solely for 'sexual selection' would be quite common.

  39. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 2, Funny

    Texans?

    --
    Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  40. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If evolution be not true, the only explanation for the appearance of varied life on the planet is intelligent design.

    Uh, no. There are other "theories" with just as much evidence as intelligent design.

    For instance, there's my "poof" theory. In the "poof" theory, all of the life forms on earth "poofed" into place from another universe. Or universes. Doesn't matter. Anyway, my "poof" theory explains the variety of life on earth, because these alternate universes from which life is "poofing" have much more variety than Earth does. How come we don't see it happening now? We do, actually. Haven't you heard of unicorns? Not everything that poofs into place survives, and you don't always get a breeding pair, either.

    What's that? Intelligent Design is better? Nope. We have exactly as much evidence for your Designer and your Designer's methods as we do for my "poof" theory. Sure, I can't show you my alternate universes, but you can's show me your Designer, His Workshop or anything else.

    For that matter, there are plenty of other whackos out there who've got a theory with just about as much evidence as mine, such as Michael Cremo (author of "Forbidden Archaeology" and sort of a Hindu creationist), the late Fred Hoyle (panspermia), or Periannan Senapathy (author of "Independent Birth of Origins"). You have to show your Intelligent Design is better than them, too.

  41. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by hobbit · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not at all. "How To Falsify X" is a necessary part of the evaluation of any scientific theory X.

    --
    "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
  42. Neosuperstitionism or intellectual terrorism? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be a pity if we had to purge the name "Charles Darwin" from the history of science in order to satisfy some religious fanatics who simply refuse to live in a world where not everyone shares their superstitious beliefs. That they would insinuate themselves at all in the world of Reason is outrageous. How many advances in biology and medicine have been delayed because of researchers' fear of these medieval god-botherers getting all up in their beeswax?

    I'm starting the countdown until we tell all the "fundamentalist" bullies in this country to go fuck themselves right...now.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  43. Biologists challenge Darwin's ideas EVERY DAY. by hey! · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Darwin's ideas are, in point of fact, a species of orthodoxy, just like creationism. The important thing to remember is that religion and science deal with new ideas in precisely opposite ways.

    If a creationist theologian examines the notion that man is descended from other apes, he refers to the assertions of his orthodoxy, and sees that God created Adam on the seventh day, and therefore rejects this new idea. If an anthropologist examines the idea that such and such a hominid was an ancestor of man, then he sets out to prove that the notion is inconsistent with known fact. He sets out, in effect, to prove that evolution did not happen in this case.

    The statistician's name for this notion is "the null hypothesis". In setting out to prove an idea, you set out to disprove the null hypothesis. In this game, the null hypothesis is considered innocent until proven guilty: any reasonable grounds whatsoever for accepting the null hypothesis is allowed. If under those slanted rules, the null hypotheses fails, then the idea must be considered consistent with all the facts currently in hand.

    Scientific theories perform some of the same functions as religious dogmas in casual reasoning. They can, of course, be wrong and this wrongness can temporarily slow scientific progress. But when it comes down to real work, the core function of a scientific theory is completely opposite to that of religious dogma. Scientific theories are not touchstones; they are sources of ideas to disprove as null hypotheses. The published empirical data are the touchstone against which the scientist sets out to crush the tenets of scientific theory, if he can. If he fails, then he has advance scientific knowledge.

    It is their reliability as sources of failing null hypotheses that makes scientific theories practically useful to researchers. The reason a scientist, in his gut, reacts against creationism is he is sure that he will set out to disprove it and succeed.

    Now the notion that we've made a religious fetish of Darwin reflect a fundamental misunderstanding about how the differences between theology and science. Scientists are not necessarily philosophers of science, so when they are invited to a debate by theologians, they often unconsciously slip into arguing on theological grounds, or they simply fail to communicate because neither side has any intellectual context for understanding the other, and neither side is aware of this.

    If theologians new how scientific theories are actually used they'd be less anxious to seek the imprimatur of the scientific community.

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  44. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by ArhcAngel · · Score: 4, Funny

    Any theory that does not provide a method to falsify and validate its claims is a useless theory.

    Example; if someone said a watermelon is blue on the inside, but turns red when you cut it open, how could you prove them wrong? How could they prove they're right?

    Exactly!
    My electronics theory professor theorized that electronic devices work by the flow of magic smoke. He then proved his theory by releasing the smoke from an electronic device and showing us it no longer worked.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  45. Stupid Point of view by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are two issues here and they are often conflated:

    Evolution as a process and evolution as a path.

    The "process" of evolution is what Darwin documented extensively in "The Origin of Species" and scientists have proved beyond any doubt. The "process" of evolution is a fact.

    The "path" of evolution, i.e. where and how a specific species has come to exist is a "study." We can speculate, research, and document what we think archaeological remnants mean, but we can *never* prove that A begot B beyond any doubt. We can only speculate that somewhere in the path of evolution Archeopterix is a predecessor to modern flying birds based on similarities and features.

    The beauty of science over religion is that science isn't required to be all knowing and infallible. We can and do make mistakes, but all mistakes are not equal. As Isaac Asimov wrote, the mistakes of science are not arbitrary, they are of the character of increasing precision.

    We used to believe the world was flat. That was because the earth looked flat to the available technology of the time. We then measured that the earth MUST be round. The earlier "flat earth" was not wrong, per se' it was the best we could do. The round spherical earth was a better model. Well now we know that the world isn't spherical, it is kind of egg shaped. Again, the spherical thing wasn't wrong, it was the best we could measure. It isn't as if science is going to through up its hands and say, "oops! the world is flat, we were wrong" because the nature of scientific errors aren't like that. The mistakes of science are in the form of new knowledge correcting old conclusions in an ever increasingly accurate set of models.

  46. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As far as I can tell, that "broader definition" is something that you just made up.

    No, he didn't just make that up, it's a basic tenent of the neo-creationists, who have been taught to make an argument that sounds almost like it's making sense unless you've actually studied biology or the history of science.

    What's worse is these evil fundamentalist fuckers want to teach our kids this superstitious bullshit. That's what we need, a generation of young people who know how to make a sensible-sounding fallacious argument. Then they can all be stockbrokers.

    I say, they can take my Science from me when they wrest it from my cold, dead fingers (by the way, my gun is in my other hand).

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  47. If someone asks me... by gillbates · · Score: 2, Informative

    If I believe in evolution, I usually reply something to the effect of, "It's not a religion that one might believe in... You can either prove it or you can't." The notion of being able to falsify scientific hypothesis seems to be a bit beyond the conceptual grasp of a large portion of the population.

    I'm a Christian. Yes, I've seen evidence that there's a God, in fact, rather recently. But my belief in God isn't based on evidence, it's based on faith. That's why it's called religion. Any time a belief system is based on faith rather than repeatable experiments, we have to call it a religion.

    I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers, but I'm sick of this debate being rehashed again and again. For many, many years, what was taught as evolution in public schools was largely based on blind faith in evolution. The conflict over evolution in schools had nothing to do with science and everything to do with conflicting belief systems, i.e. atheism versus theism. And for that reason, the teaching of evolutionary theory was slanted toward whatever personal agenda the teacher had with respect to the above debate. Science got lost in the process.

    And evolution itself was largely a matter of religious belief for the century after Darwin. Biology was one of the few sciences which accepted a theory which was provably false by anyone with a basic knowledge of statistics. The early theories of natural selection were mathematically sound, but to go the step beyond and claim that "random change" would differentiate species only indicated the discipline's misunderstanding of randomness, and was based largely on faith. It was as if, unable to find a specific cause of speciation, biologists just gave up critical thought and claimed "random chance did it". It was intellectually lazy, and Americans knew it. And this version of evolution would be taught as late as the 1990's.

    So when you hear someone questioning darwinism, or evolution, this is what the debate is about. They are probably not aware of the more recent advances in the subject, probably cannot elaborate on any of the specific theories regarding speciation (which, to biology's credit, are actually listing falsifiable hypotheses now). It is not about science, but bad science put forward in the attempt to make a larger cultural change, a shift away from belief in God.

    There is no conflict between science and religion, because both seek the truth, but work in different problem domains. That said, though, there's no place for faith in science, and one need not "believe" in it the way one might have faith in the second coming of Christ. The debate over evolution should serve as an indicator of how bad things can get when science attempts to step outside of its proper boundaries into the realm of philosophy and religion. I do not want future spacecraft designed by faith any more than I want future public policy governed solely by science. (While I'll admit that science can inform public opinion, it cannot resolve the ethical and moral questions.)

    So before you go about bashing evolution bashers, please remember: most of these people were taught falsehoods in the name of science. Once you address that issue, you'll find that there's really very little left to debate.

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  48. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Evan+Meakyl · · Score: 4, Funny

    At least, its argumentation doesn't evolve.

  49. Logical fallacy by cat_jesus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You are equivocating on the word faith. This is a common error, please don't perpetuate it.

    http://www.logicalfallacies.info/equivocation.html

  50. I think taking a course in formal logic by mario_grgic · · Score: 2, Informative

    would help you in your life immensely.

    --
    As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
  51. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Dekortage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's what we need, a generation of young people who know how to make a sensible-sounding fallacious argument.

    Stepping back from the article for a moment... it's not just evil fundamentalists who have honed that skill. Think politicians, marketers, ad execs, the RIAA, and plenty of others. Much of society is based on saying things that sound truthy but aren't quite true.

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  52. Does it even matter? by katorga · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So creationism or Intelligent Design are individuals or religions' way to integrate current science into existing dogma. So what?

    Religions have been morphing and changing for 1000's of years for various reasons.

    Shoot, most of the material I read on evolution practically implies intelligence in the process, that it approaches deism. The consumer level science outlets are the worst.

  53. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by psychicninja · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nice copy paste. Then again, that's typical Creationist behavior.

    It's not just a straight copy paste, every time this is posted it's slightly different. After a few thousand posts, it may turn into a cogent argument!

  54. Re:He didn't propose a "theory" in the strict sens by nine-times · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That doesn't seem to me to prove evolution. You could say that god creates things that match, that go together, and He must have made a moth to match that flower.

    Not that it's not an insightful prediction, and not that I believe in creationism at all, but it doesn't seem to me like that prediction is based on anything other than understanding the reproduction of flowers and knowing that, given that structure of flower, there must be an insect able to pollenate it.

  55. All Things Dull And Ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    All things dull and ugly,
    All creatures short and squat,
    All things rude and nasty,
    The Lord God made the lot;


    Each little snake that poisons,
    Each little wasp that stings,
    He made their brutish venom,
    He made their horrid wings.


    All things sick and cancerous,
    All evil great and small,
    All things foul and dangerous,
    The Lord God made them all.


    Each nasty little hornet,
    Each beastly little squid.
    Who made the spikey urchin?
    Who made the sharks? He did.


    All things scabbed and ulcerous,
    All pox both great and small.
    Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
    The Lord God made them all.

  56. I don't see the problem by speedtux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Buildings don't start falling down because they're based on Newtonian physics and Newton's theory has had centuries of refinement. Likewise, Darwinism is well understood in the sciences and there is nothing wrong with associating his name with the theory.

    We won't get "creationists" to see reason by changing the name. If we called it something else, they'd find something wrong with that term as well. You simply cannot expect a single word to be an intrinsically accurate representation of an entire theory.

    Creationists fall into the categories of people too stupid to understand the science and people who deliberately misunderstand in order to win rhetorical arguments. Both kinds of people are a lost cause. We should let them all move into a bunch of religious states and nations and stop sending them technology; everybody would be happier that way.

  57. Respect by MarkPNeyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the key to winning the evoultion vs. creationism argument is to have respect for the other side. I know this is hard to do when creationism seems so ludicrous, but keep a few things in mind.

    Firstly, properly constructed creationist theories are not falsifiable. If I said that God created the universe 5,000 years ago, but he made it look as if it'd been around for billions of years in order to test our faith, you couldn't prove me wrong. Radio-Carbon dating is based upon the assumption that at one time the ratio of carbon isotopes was at a certain level - you can't use it to prove the age of an object unless you first posit that the object had, at one time, a certain ratio of isotopes. If I just claimed that the object never had that ratio because it was never alive (i.e. that fossil was created as a fossil), you couldn't prove me wrong. Falsifiability is KEY to science, which means creationism can never be science, but it also means that creationism can never be shown to be wrong.

    Second, There are intelligent creationists out there. I am working with a guy who got a Ph.D. in theoretical computer science at Stanford. He's absolutely brilliant, and he's also a young earth creationist. You're never going to win a guy like that over by telling him he's stupid and that he's destroying science.

    The ONLY way to win someone's mind over is to be patient and respectful. Every human being (even creationists and republicans) deserves that much.

    --

    My blog
  58. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it's not just evil fundamentalists who have honed that skill

    No, but they're the ones who demand that the rest of us believe in it.

    Sorry, there's something much worse about religious fundamentalists than simply sophism. There are lots of places in the world where the dead get stacked like firewood thanks to their superstitions.

    No, the religious fanatics in the US must not be allowed to force their insanity on our children. The only time I want any "intelligent design" taught in school is during a class called "Survey of World Mythology".

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  59. Chart of acceptance of evolution in various countr by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 2, Interesting
    --
    This post climbed Mt. Washington.
  60. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by wanerious · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...they eventually figured out that stars work with nuclear processes...

    There is also the fact that the sun's mass is not enough to gravitationally oppose the huge outward pressures generated by a thermonuclear reaction at the needed temperatures. Gravity is simply too weak to overcome the strong nuclear and electrical forces that would have to be present in such a thermonuclear reaction furnace.

    What? Balancing the pressure equation of state is how we numerically predict the structure of the Sun in the first place. Where did you hear that?

    Then there is the missing neutrino problem. From thermonuclear fusion experiments and bombs, we know what the production rate of associated neutrinos should be for the sun IF it were indeed powered by fusion, as theorized. However, the actual neutrino flux from the sun is only a tiny fraction of what should be measured if fusion were the energy source of the sun. At this point scientists really are back to square one in determining the power source of the sun and similar sized stars.

    This was a problem before 10 or so years ago, though (a) the solution was guessed at 30 years ago, and (b) it's not a "tiny" fraction, it was about a third. Neutrinos change species. There is no more mystery

    There is also radar evidence that the sun is not a big gas ball, but actually has a solid iron core, similar to the earth, surrounded by an atmosphere of seething plasma kept hot by an as yet unknown external electrical power grid, in the same way as a metal arc lamp here on earth. There is some evidence that the sun, along with other stars in the spiral arms of our galaxy, is part of a galactic scale electrical power distribution system powered from the center of our galaxy.

    A solid iron core??? Where are you getting this stuff? The central density is around 15 times higher than iron! Chemical reactions cannot power the Sun at its current luminosity for billions of years. Can I recommend to you a nice introductory astronomy (science) book?

  61. Re:How to Falsify Intelligent Design by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Creationists are parasites, happily sucking the benefits of a modern scientific and technological society, all the while working to undermine it, and openly hoping to cause its collapse without realizing the ramifications. Heck, most of them openly hope that the end of the world will come soon to end their suffering (see: armageddon, rapture, etc.)

    There was a brilliant Doonesbury on this irony a few years ago. A doctor discovers his patient has drug resistant TB, and asks him if he is a creationist (knowing the answer in advance, presumably from previous discussion). The patient says, "Why yes, I am. Why do you ask?" The Doctor replies:

    The cartoon (the original is now locked behind a paid subscription to Doonesbury)
    "Because, I need to know whether you want me to treat the bug as it was before antibiotics, or the multiple-drug-resistant strain it has evolved into."

    It gets even funnier from there.

    People who want to "believe" superstitious whatnot can certainly do so, but when they insist we teach this in schools, society should revoke their rights to use the fruits of science to sustain their standard of living, until they evolve their thinking. (That prohibition to include guns, which would remain strictly under the control of those who do not believe in armageddon or any other such garbage.)

    They can have access to educational materials, but they really need to get back in touch with their superstitious roots, which include praying all winter for warmer weather, as structural engineering requires a scientific understanding of the world which is in conflict with their belief in a benevolent god who magically provides them with whatever they need.

    Northern climates are effective at demonstrating that god (for lack of a better term) is ambivalent. Let's set aside a portion of a national forest where they can evolve their belief in science from first principles, like making fire and skinning bears with stone knives.

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  62. Darwinism - Evolution - WHO CARES by kellyb9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Religious types are always going to believe what they believe because thats what they do. Are you really so naive to think that if you rebrand something it's going to make an ounce of difference? The ironic part in my mind is every article I've ever read on the subject pretty much perpetuates the idea that there's this big debate going on in America, and I really don't believe there is. I've never really met a creationist in my life, and if I did, I'd prefer not to engage them in a debate because I know ultimately it's like arguing with a 5 year old over the existance of Santa Claus. I think if the pro-evolutionists simply dropped it, the whole issue would become irrelevant... more irrevelvant then it already is.

  63. The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by emeraldemon · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn is a must read for anyone trying to understand how a theory (like evolution) is formed and evolves. It talks in depth about how new ideas challenge and eventually overthrow the established science, the difficulties involved, and how a paradigm eventually solidifies. His examples are mostly in physics and chemistry, but evolutionary biology had a very similar path to those described: a new theory is posited with powerful explainatory powers, although it certainly can't explain everything. Eventually, it is generally recognized as the most powerful and parsimonious explaination, although significant changes are made to its initial hypotheses. Something very similar happened with Einstein and physics, and Copernicus and astronomy. Of course, the problem is not that people believe stupid things about how science works, but that people in power believe stupid things about how science works. http://xkcd.com/154/

  64. No need by jandersen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think we need to take the dark-age proponents of Creationism all that serious. We're only doing them a favour by doing so, as well as wasting time that could be better spent on conducting scientific research and teaching young people about real science.

    What we should do is point the complete idiocy of their anti-scientific stance. It isn't as if you can pick and choose in science; if you accept, say, that quantum mechanics is valid, or astronomy or any of the other branches of science, then you will have a very, very hard time not accepting the theory of evolution. So if you want to reject evolution, please get rid of your computer and anything else with semiconductors in; we wouldn't have had those things without scientific research and the insight that quantum mechanics gives us. And stay out of cars and away from bridges too.

    Apart from that - there is nothing in science that says there is no God or gods, science simply deals with what can be measured and which is subject to logical reasoning. And there is nothing in the Bible that claims that "this collection of stories is God's infallible truth" - that is simply a viewpoint that has been added since the time of Christ. I think what scares Creationists is that they don't understand what science is about and they basically don't understand what faith is about; and when people are scared, they become reactionary, they close their eyes and ears to shut out every part of reality that seems scary, and they become control freaks who want to decide everything. Creationists are, in a way as far from what their faith states, as you can get. They are not seeking the truth and they don't trust God; who, when you get right down to it, allegedly created this world in such a way that evolution seems to be very convincingly real.

    All in all, I don't think we need to distance ourselves from Darwin or his views on evolution. If you read his works (which are available online), you will see that he is very careful in all his statements, that his reasoning is scientifically very sound and that his writing style is still very, very pleasant to read. What we should do more, all of us, is simply to stand up for science - understand it better, communicate it better.

  65. Re:The problem with darwinism.... by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 3, Informative

    Although admittedly, it may be a flaw that we can learn to live with, is that it fails to answer the following: what happened, exactly, that caused non-replicating molecules to become replicating, and equally importantly, what caused large collections of such molecules in a single thing to progress from having a non-living state to being a living organism?

    I find it somewhat ironic that we appear to understand and know more about the origins of the universe than we do about the existence of life on this planet.

    The evidence for the origin of life on earth, whatever it may be, is a lot more fragile than the evidence for the origin of the universe. A couple billion years of geology and life destroyed most of the evidence. Some of it's still there, but the vast majority of it is gone forever.

    I'd like to stress, though, that evolution doesn't have anything to do with the origin of life. The first life could have formed from chemicals in the early earth's oceans, been created by the Designer, left here by aliens, or drifted in on a comet. Doesn't matter. Evolution can't happen until life can replicate itself. It would certainly be nice to know how life came about, but it's not relevant to evolution.

  66. Re:Maybe I didn't explain it well enough by aukset · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not sure that the standard view of sexual selection is that the feathers are a disadvantage that just happen to impress females. As you said, if the tail was a disadvantage that would seem absurd.

    The peacock has what look like eyes on its tail. These have a tendency to confuse predators. This is a common defensive adaptation on a number of species.

    Similarly, the way the tail fans out to makes the peacock appear much larger than it really is. This also confuses predators. This is, also, a common defensive adaptation.

    The peacock's tail is an evolutionary advantage. The "sexual selection" probably evolved in females as a response to the survival advantages of having a large, elaborately patterned tail, NOT the other way around.

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  67. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Your list is rather slim. All species are transitional species, including humans.

    Also, don't respond to trolls.

  68. False premise by religious+freak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This whole summary is based on the supposition that people haven't even bothered to understand evolutionary theory, and view it through a lens of "belief".

    There's no reason to waste time on trying to convince people when they won't take 5 minutes to understand the underlying fundamentals of your argument.

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  69. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

    No joke, they really believe stars are powered by electricity. They will usually try to pull you in with talk of plasma and electromagnetism affecting stars and planets in unforeseen ways, and build up to the 'stars are big arc lamps!" bit once they get a nibble of interest.

    --
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  70. It's an authority thing. by rantingkitten · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think we're all well aware that Darwin laid out most -- though not all -- of the groundwork for evolutionary science, but since then there's been 150 years of research done on the topic, so deciding that evolution is wrong because Darwin himself wasn't 100% correct is like deciding a building is ugly by standing in the basement.

    But the anti-evolution fundamentalists can't quite wrap their head around that. They have a mindset where the first time someone said something, it's truth. Their dogma hasn't changed significantly in two thousand years; on the few occasions it has, it's quietly integrated into their knowledge. A prime example is how livid the church was with Galileo for daring to suggest, as others had, the heliocentric model, for dogma at the time declared the heavens to be eternal and unchanging. Now every fundamentalist can give you an impressive speech about how the precise orbits of the planets is proof of the magnificence of God. No one really remembers or cares that this wasn't always the case.

    But more to the point, their obsession with Darwin is based on their obsession with authority figures and revelation. To them, truth is and always has been the Bible, and the people who wrote the Bible were, allegedly, handed this knowledge from on high. No one had to go find out what commandments and laws God wanted -- he apparently just told someone. In that same vein, the Church is the authority on interpreting the Bible or enforcing it, and so people associated with the Church are also authorities. A fundamentalist's entire worldview is predicated on these revealed truths from authorities.

    They therefore assume that everyone else works on this same principle -- that authority figures hand out information which is either true or false, and if they can show that person, or anything he said, to be in error, then they've destroyed his authority. To them, the information is only as good as the authority of the person who offered it, because that person's authority is the final product and the information is really only secondary. If Paul was just some guy nobody would care what he said, but because he was supposedly in touch with the ultimate authority, his words are recorded and now we all know what he said.

    They don't realise or don't care that science is done by incorporating the knowledge of dozens of disciplines and thousands of people who worked on the problem before, and that knocking one of them down doesn't affect the final product because the product is not the authority of the scientist.

    So, by attacking Darwin they hope to make him look foolish or wrong, and if they can do that, then absolutely everything built upon his work is also foolish or wrong. That's the mindset of a fundamentalist -- the mindset of anyone who believes in revelation over investigation.

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    mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
  71. Vulgar Darwinism by ElmoGonzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The misconception that Prof Safina rails against is due to the vulgar notion of Darwinism which is no more like what Darwin wrote about than does "begging the question" have anything to do with its common misusage.

  72. The Origin of Species by silentsentinel · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So, one question I've always had when contemplating the different theories and input surrounding natural evolution is:

    Why do we still have the "lesser", "older" species?

    I've not heard a real explanation to this point. I am not referring to the process of natural selection, simply the origin of species. Two completely different theories and ideas.

    Why do we still have fish, primates, birds? We do we not have half human-ape looking hybrids? Why are there no hybrid species of other types?

    Not a troll, a genuine question. I am a spiritual creationist, my core beliefs are "neo" "Christian" ['follower of the way', anyone? I despise the word 'Christian' which was never intended to be used as such], and I do take tidbits and input from all sources in this walk of life, including philosophies and input from many different religions world-wide.

    Additionally and thankfully, I have a very open mind regarding scientific thought and theory. I do however, think that it's possible modern science's "scale" is off when it comes to judging how long the universe and Earth have existed.

    -Simple small things like the scale of time it takes to create coal can be sped up, or slowed down. This has been simulated many times in lab conditions, and they even found fossilized dinosaur footprints within coal in a mine. If it takes coal "millions of years" to form, (all the time,) then said footprint should not remain.
    -The speed of light is not a constant, it is affected by things such as space-gas and nebulas, so in effect we have no true idea how "far" things in space are from us if this is remotely true.
    -The amount of time it takes to petrify an object is by far, not, a constant, as shown even in modern day broken dam floods, etc.
    -The amount of dust on the moon was about an inch or two, not several feet of dust as astronomers predicted, thus creating the long lunar module stilts for.
    -Sea life has been found in, decidedly, un-sea-like areas, such as the grand canyon, within all layers of soil, much more so than "river" or fresh water dwelling organisms.
    -Carbon dating has been shown to be drastically affected by simple things, such as smoke from a fire.

    In the end, re Darwin, it seems to be a no-brainer to me that natural selection itself exists, but the fact that all species are, for the lack of a better description, largely and plainly definitive between themselves, is compelling to me.

  73. Re:How to Falsify Evolution by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

    it won't work becasue...
    they will say where is the transitional fossil between this and the precious fossil.

    We've got them beat even there.

    Foraminifera are a phylum of really tiny aquatic animals. They live on the oceans by the trillions, and they have mineral skeletons called tests. Millions of them die every day and their tests continuously rain down on the deep dark cold inert sea floor as ideal fossils. They are continuously layered in the accumulating sea floor sediment. In the 1970's we developed new technology for deep sea oil exploration, bringing up long sediment cores from the seabed. Sediment cores that were incidentally loaded with a limitless supply of these fossils. It's an evolutionary scientist's wet dream treasure trove. A perfectly continuous and complete record spanning thousands of species over more than a hundred million years. Not merely a complete sequence of transitional species, but vast samples of entire populations continuously along individual species transitions, tracing diverse modern species back to their common ancestor. Scientists are have been examining how long each individual speciation took to occur, and examining exactly how entire populations evolved during individual speciation events.

    A particularly interesting thing is that they have been studying is how and why the rate of speciation increases after each mass extinction event. In short, after an extinction event there is less competition between species. This allows the survival of more borderline-fitness high-diversity outliers speeding the diversification of the species into other ecological niches that are now vacant and exploitable, and these variants can then specialize and optimize to this new ecological niche and speciate.

    The only "problem" is that most foraminifera are barely visible without a magnifying glass. They are tiny aquatic animals that most people have never heard of. Not nearly as glamorous as mammal or dinosaur fossils. It's one of the most powerful proofs of evolution, and it all flies under the radar of public discussion.

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    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  74. Great book on biology history by thext · · Score: 2, Informative

    Genesis: The Evolution of Biology is a great book on the history of biology, pre-Darwinians like Lamarck to today's (scientific) cracks showing in the Darwinian model.