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350,000 Linux (Virtual) Desktops Land In Brazil
xufem writes "Millions of Brazilian schoolchildren will soon be 'brought up right' running Linux on over 350,000 seats each using PC sharing hardware and software from Userful and KDE. This is world's largest virtual desktop deployment and probably also the world's largest Linux deployment, and seems to have been selected over OLPC by Brazil. Definitely a moment to celebrate — and just in time for Brazilian Carnival which starts tomorrow!"
Nice headline and all. I don't really care about it at the moment though. I want to hear back after they've been running the program for 5-10 years. Or do they quietly cancel the program after a year or two of failures? (Any project of this size will have road bumps that need to be solved. Will they be solved or will they spend the money and buy the machines, yet the machines never end up assigned to students for another 4 years?)
linux makes a terrible desktop, and now brazilian children will be startin gout their education on a platform that noone with any brains uses for serious work. all this means is that when these kids graduate, they are going to have to take remedial classes to learn windows and os x, real operating systems where real work gets done.
The Brazilian government is really good in announcing things, but not really good in making them happen. ie http://br-linux.org/2008/um-ano-apos-fiasco-governo-marca-novo-pregao-por-laptops-educacionais
So let me know when they start to deploy it.
I am known by my friends as a UNIX bigot, but I need to inject a little sanity here. Running Linux on the desktop is not a precondition to a good upbringing. We all know it's the editor you use that determines that.
End anonymous moderation and posting on
The place to look would be Extramdura in Spain, they have been using Linux for a long time. They claim very, very low costs. I don't have any recent posts but LWN wrote about it in 2003, and last time I heard it was still going strong.
The year of the (virtual) Linux desktop is here!*
*Valid only in Brazil.
"While others debate whether GNU/Linux is ready for the desktop, Userful is quietly proving that it is -- and making a profit while doing so"
"By combining a mixture of proprietary administrative tools with a modified Red Hat distribution and a GNOME desktop, Userful has updated the concept of timesharing by adapting it to a personal computer. The result is DiscoverStation, a hardware and software solution that connects as many as 10 terminals to a single computer"
It's not Free software, ergo kids can't hack on it. Granted many may not choose/need to, but out of 350,000 there are going to be some.
Have to say, I'm glad Nicholas WhingaboutWindows-ponte has been proven wrong about these countries wanting Windows.
This solution may not be entirely Free/Libre:
http://support.userful.com/wiki/index.php/Manuals/UMx/Readme#Copyrights.2C_Licenses_and_Trademarks
"Copyrights, Licenses and Trademarks
Userful Multiplier is commercial software and contains proprietary, patent-pending intellectual property. See the Userful-EULA.txt file for full terms of the license agreement."
From the EULA in the download:
I live in Brasil. This kind of things are announced from time to time, and the implementations varies. But they are mostly done. See for example the conversion of the government's computer to Linux. It was slow an irregular, but it was done, and it is working for some time know.
This is an issue that has been on media for quite some time, and it would be quite shameful if it failed again. I really think this time is for real.
The thing that really worries me is how these systems are going to be administrated. There aren't exactly a lot of Linux sysadmins here. If they aren't very careful about it (and they seldom are), we could end up with a huge expensive system badly misconfigured, that would just harm the kids and Linux's reputation.
Let me give you a real example. In my university, there are countless computer labs, and two of them run linux. One of them is run by be central administration of the exact sciences department. It is a bloody mess. They couldn't even get the user accounts working well, and its a heroic feat to get anything to compile there. The other lab, is run by the physics department. Mostly physics students that are hired to administrate it from time to time. Runs tighter than a duck's ass.
That said, it is really wonderful to get that mindshare, and for the first time kids won't be trained to think that windows is all that is.
entropy happens
I control the butterfly, so there!
350,000 virtual desktops is as meaningful as "The equivalent of 421 CD burners." Nowhere in the article does it actually give meaningful numbers like the maximum number of concurrent users, or the actual amount of server hardware, or what sort of workstations will be hosting those virtual desktops.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
This reminds me of the Apple ][ in school. Apple had a huge education discount back then. In hopes that kids will grow up with the Apple ][ and Macs and then will purchase them when they grow up. But the reverse effect happened. When they grew up they remembered all the problems they had when they were a kid and linked issues of the past with Apple (B&W screens (Most people I know still though well in the late 90's that all Macs were in Black and White), Incompatible floppy formats (Apple cant read IBM Disks, IBM Cant read Apple Disks), etc...) So using a PC seemed so much more modern, as the ones they used in schools as they were so budget conscious that they never updated their product line, still having Apple II well until the late 96 when they finally went with Windows 95 where the new PC's were so much better then the Apples.
This could have the same effect as well... Being a Virtual Desktop on a massive server over the Network it will seem slow and clunky to the kids especially once they are shown a modern Windows PC that their parents my have for work, or when they start to go to work. Also because Linux has much better security, when exposed to windows they will feel that it could do more.
So this could have the reverse effect on Linux Adoption.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Looks (from the press release) http://www2.userful.com/company/linux-desktop-virtualization like 18,000 seats have already been deployed and are running well. And the budget has already been allocated and system vendors have won the auctions to supply the hardware.
This isn't your classic "virtualization". It might be better termed as PC hardware sharing. Each PC can have 2-10 monitors, keyboards and users connected. So 350,000 kids **will** be able to work simultaneously. Presumably this translates into somewhere between 35,000 PCs and 175,000 actual PCs.
The schools I attended from the late 80s through mid 90s had 5 to 10 Macs for every PC. In spite of this, there was usually a wait for Macs but never for PCs.
After we graduated, we found that the business world was 99% PCs, as it had been from day one, never having given Apple any serious consideration at all.
Most then went on to get the same kind of computer at home that they used at work because, as much of a pain as it is to use Windows, it's more of a pain to have to use both.
Then school boards started making noises, with some merit, that kids should learn in school what they'll be using in the real world. This caused many schools to switch to PCs.
This has nothing to do with technical merit and everything to do with first-mover advantage in the right market (personal computers for business).
Also, running virtual desktops over the network is not necessarily slow and clunky. Have you tried it? I've been doing it for years.
Seems like "virtual" is perhaps the wrong way to label the posting and is being miss-used in the title, they are really multi-station or multi-seat desktops. Up to ten monitors and keyboards per PC. No Server Required. In fact many of the schools are in remote rural locations: http://www2.userful.com/company/linux-desktop-virtualization
But it's not like most student care, most school computer systems sucks anyway, there just isn't enough money to administrate them. I rather the schools pay that small amount of money to Linux admins than Windows admins. Knowing Linux admins they are usually alot better at sharing info on the net than the Windows admin, even though there are now lots of good windows blogs.
As is stated above this isn't about VNC or remote X11, it's about shared physical machines. Not that it makes it less painfull, try playig a flash game on a shared machine (I haven't).
I use free software when I can but can I be bothered to 'hack' the source code? Not if I can help it. I have a lot of other responsibilities. I've 'converted' a lot of Windows users to Linux and frankly, I don't see them playing with source anytime soon.
Bored at work? Play Game!
It's the year of Linux on the VIRTUAL desktop!
I ditched KDE a long while ago. Brasero has issues....apparently neither GnomeBaker nor K3b do. Use one of those. I've never had trouble with the screensaver, or with one program causing another one to close.
Linux works just fine for me. I use it just like I do Windows. Stuff "just works". Setting up my dual displays was a pain in the ass, but that was a 1-time annoyance. If you are having such big problems with Ubuntu, then why are you still running it?? Why not go back to another OS? And why didn't you use a spare drive to assess potential problems before (apparently) wiping out your old system?
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
PP said:
Wonderfully understated. But in this case, taking it further is interesting. So here I go...
Brazil's government has achieved a bunch of really aggressive goals in recent years. Let's start with the ones in energy independence...
* Ethanol is a viable fuel, being based on sugar cane and not corn. It's been that way for a while now.
* New cars in Brazil are now sold with engines that are equally happy burning gasoline or ethanol or a mix (or, with a conversion, natural gas - see below)
* Natural gas, originally imported via a pipeline from Bolivia, and now with big reserves found in Brazil, presents another alternative fuel with environmental, financial, and geopolitical advantages over petroleum. The pipeline was announced and then successfully executed. Exploiting Brazil's own natural gas was a new challenge. The programs were announced and then successfully executed.
* Over 95% of Brazil's electrical energy comes from hydroelectric plants. Hydroelectric projects were announced and then executed successfully.
* Total independence from foreign petroleum. Planned, announced, done.
Changing from energy, there are other things, like the...
* massive migration to FOSS going on since the early days of the Lula government (2003-present). I saw with my own two eyes huge numbers of Linux desktops at ITI (Information Technology Institute) and other government offices in 2005-2007. This one is still in the process of happening, and faces very well-funded opposition (from MS and friends), but despite that, it's been successful. Announced and made to happen.
* A more stable (and, not coincidentally, better-regulated) banking system than the one in the USA
* Health care policy that has basically done away with the black market for transplant organs, maintained the viability of what is widely considered the best AIDS policy in the world, and brought the benefits of generic drugs to the Brazilian people. All planned, announced, and executed successfully.
* A GROWING middle class. Tens of millions of people have joined the middle class of Brazil in the last several years. Growing the middle class is often a stated goal, but rarely achieved as spectacularly as it has been in Brazil in recent years
* I would also mention that the Brazilian government paid off close to $20B in loans early just in the year 2005, meeting the goal of reducing foreign debt, which the previous governments seemed to love, and saving something on the order of 10^9 dollars in interest payments. Goal announced, goal achieved.
Every place has its advantages and disadvantages, and wherever you go, the deal is the same: you've got to try to make the most of the advantages and minimize the effects of the disadvantages. Brazil's advantages and disadvantages are different from those of the US. But to say the Brazilian government isn't good at making things happen is just wrong. I hate to pull out a mean word, but here it is: saying the Brazilian government, especially in the last several years, isn't good at making things happen, is just plain ignorant.
In early 2003, the US invaded Iraq to save the world from Saddam Hussein's supposed stocks of weapons of mass destruction, and to fight a war against terrorism and bring peace, stability, and democracy to the Middle East. I remember the announcements. I also remember announcements of how the economic policy would continue US economic dominance into the 21st Century. I'm a US citizen, so I know the answer to this question as I ask it: how are those goals workin' out for ya? Is terrorism down in the last several years? Was the haul of WMDs worth the multi-trillion dollar cost of the stupidest war ever, plus the destabilization of the region? I guess by mentioning the destabiliz
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
How do you say "wooosh" in Spanish?
(BTW, tha write speling is Extremadura, well at least in Castellano Spanish it is)
Stop talking about this stupid country. Brazil sucks!
My frustration is with people thinking that Windows is more dominant only because it's what users are comfortable with or because of close file formats. No, I'm sorry, Linux is not ready for the desktop. It's getting closer; for the end user where we're at now is a lot better than in 1995 when FVWM was the main desktop.
But, still, the code seems to be in a perpetual state of being beta-quality. The quality of Linux is like a really early beta of Windows 95. A lot of programs don't work correctly or have issues with crashing. On a stock Ubuntu install.
I mean, if Gnome Baker is so much better than Brasero, than why does Ubuntu use Brasero instead of Gnome Baker? There really needs to be more quality control here.
I simple don't understand why Ubuntu is so popular. It's been a massive headache for me. I've mentioned a lot of my issues on my blog and one poster points out I might be better off with Mepis or Fedora Core.
I think I will give Fedora core a chance; the nice thing about Fedora core is every few years, RedHat takes this software and makes an ultra-stable version of it that's supported for seven years (thay last did this with Fedora Core 6 around 2006-2007 and should be making RHEL 6 from Fedora core 10 or 11 late this year or early next year), which can be freely downloaded as CentOS.
Right now, Gnome is the desktop of choice since KDE basically threw out all of their work in the KDE3->KDE4 transition. Hopefully, once Nokia LGPLs Qt we will see the KDE developers calm down and make something that's stable and supported for the long-term.
But, yes Ubuntu makes me want to run to the Linux hater's blog. Thankfully, it's easy for me to switch OSes; I do all of my real work in VMware virtual machines and it's a simple matter of backing up and restoring my virtual machines to a new OS, whether it be Linux or Windows.
My only issues with Linux are it being a desktop OS. It's an excellent server OS, especially if one uses RHEL or CentOS (Maybe CentOS 5.3 will work with all of my hardware, which would be nice since then I won't have to reinstall until early 2014)
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me and for the suggestion. I have just removed Brasero and installed Gnome Baker. We'll see if this works any better.
I have no idea of who is this iris-n user, but obviously he or she has a black poodle.
This one going out to our KDE watching Brazillian peeps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yztcE1c_wAM (en espanol)
nice try, PHB
What did the poor kids of Brazil do to deserve this? Imagine all that innovation in tango, soccer, and carnivals lost to tinkering with KDE.
I waited until KDE 4.2 until making the switch on my main machine. I can say without reservation that this release is finally feature equivalent with 3.5.x. The network GUI is there, too.
BTW, I find *buntu to be very overrated and their KDE distribution lacks polish. On a second thought, it plain sucks. If you want to play with KDE, you are way better off with a KDE centric distro like Mandriva.
Want to hear the voice of GOD? cat
I find it interesting that they've used Userful. Their own government, a military academy, group of universities and 40,000 desktops in Parana were already using an internally(ok, with outside sources too) developed method which proved to be 100% succesful.
I looked into using Userful at the library where I used to work. The idea is you have 1 computer with 2-4+ video cards. Each you hook up a monitor to each video card, add keyboards and mice and all users sessions run off the one machine.
It comes with some nice, basic, session control and print sharing stuff. You can use USB sound and share CD burners and stuff. Because each user session has it's own video card you don't have any of the drawbacks of using a regular thin client. but then again it's only good for high density installs where groups of people sit close to each other.
From eweek it seems they have some kind of thin client offering now.
You guys should check them out.
I don't know why you have had such issues with Ubuntu. It obviously does happen though. Funnily enough the rants you gave against Ubuntu/linux as a desktop could parallel my reasons for leaving Windows.
My point is that the anecdotes you provide can be leveled at MS Windows. I personally don't know why people think it is ready for the desktop and am appalled that people actually pay for it! I keep trying it every now and again and it is nearly there.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
Heh, I installed Mandriva 2009.0 last night, and it defaulted to Gnome. Gah
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
Oh, I can rant about Windows too. My biggest issue with Windows is security; Micorsoft had no business having Windows XP run autorun.inf without thinking from removable writable media; this is one of the most common vectors for moving viruses from computer to computer.
Yes, it can be turned off but requires register voodoo so arcane even Microsoft's own security bulletins get it wrong at times.
I also don't like the way the system, over time takes longer and longer and longer to start up after logging in. My old system originally could start up right away after logging in; after a year and a half of bit rot, it took about three minutes after logging in before I could actually do any work in Windows XP.
So yes, Windows has a lot of issues too. And, yes, I think I will try out Mandrivia and Fedora Core and CentOS 5.3 when it comes out and maybe even Mepis. The nice thing about Linux is that there is choice, and maybe there is a desktop distribution that won't need a bunch of band-aids before being a desktop I can do my work on.
You're probably just a troll, but it's Linux users. They give a fuck. Why? Because more Linux adoption means Linux is bigger and has more weight with software developers. This means more software for Linux users.
So, yeah, we care. You're probably a Winblowz user who doesn't. So, go suck Bill's nutsack, dirty faggot.
Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
I don't like the way people speak of advances in these later years as something that just magically "poff" appeared.
Ethanol program (Proalcool) was a response from the military government on the 70's, developed on a military institute, where civilians like me work. There was earlier research. It was in no way some magical result from these later years. You probably remember Embraer as a result of this institute too, right?
I have found by unhappy experience, that if I give someone a pc with Windows on it, it will cause me trouble for ever. If I give someone a pc with Linux on it, a few learning hurdles and then my time is my own again.
sudo mount --milk --sugar