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Book Publishers Making the Same Mistakes as Record Labels?

Techdirt points out an interesting query in Slate asking why book publishers appear to be making the same mistake that record labels did with the iTunes service with DRM, and single-vendor lock-in. "Back in 2005, we noted that Apple's dominance over the online music space, which upset the record labels tremendously, was actually the record labels' own fault for demanding DRM. That single demand created massive lock-in and network effects that allowed Apple to completely dominate the market. If the record labels had, instead, pushed for an open solution, then anyone else could have built stores/players to work as well, and it could have minimized Apple's ability to control the market. Yes, everyone is now opening up (including Apple), but it took a long time, and Apple had already established its dominant position. So why are book publishers doing the same thing?"

227 comments

  1. Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. by bornwaysouth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Publishers don't read.

  2. At least there's a vendor involved by east+coast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A vendor means money flow. Non-DRM can, and does, open itself up to free transfer of a product with no money being involved. That's a bigger headache than dealing with vendor lock in when you're trying to make a profit.

    Better the devil you know, so to speak.

    --
    Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    1. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      See Free Culture by Lawrence Lessig (particularly the chapter outlining the four types of "piracy") and the introduction to Cory Doctorow's Little Brother for a far more succinct explanation of why Doctorow put it on the internet (and still sells tons of hardcover copies, iinm it was in the NYT's top 10). you and the publishers are not only wrong, but in the publishers' case, possibly terminally wrong.

      Nobody ever went broke because of pirates, but lots of people have gone broke because nobody ever heard of their work.

      When Asimov's Foundation trilogy was first published, he got no royalties at all from its publisher, a small company without the means to publicize. It only started making money when Doubleday bought the rights from that small publisher and let people know it existed. It won a Hugo for all time best science fiction series.

      I don't know how many authors I've discovered by checking out their books at the library, then buying other of their books later. A free download, whether sanctioned or not, helps publishers rather than hurting them.

    2. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      There are publishers that would disagree. They do well because they
      generate extra sales for old work and generate interest in new
      authors. They also do well by not treating their customers like the
      enemy.

      No one likes to be treated like a thief, or told that they are a thief.

      People may not flee immediately, but even sheep only tolerate so much.

      This latest nonsense has nothing to do with "survival". It's just an
      extra cash cow that was highly dubious to begin wih.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there some suthors and publishers who understand that :
      http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm

    4. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by ultranova · · Score: 1

      A vendor means money flow. Non-DRM can, and does, open itself up to free transfer of a product with no money being involved. That's a bigger headache than dealing with vendor lock in when you're trying to make a profit.

      DRM doesn't stop this from happening, thought. If your work is any good, then DRM will be circumvented - by copying each page by hand if need be - and free copies will float around.

      Besides, as a customer, I'd like to point out that your biggest problem is convince me to invest my time, not money. Assuming I'm making minimum wage - Hell, even assuming I'm living on unemployment - and calculating the worth of my time that way reveals that buying a book is far cheaper than actually reading it. And even assuming that I'm an absolute book nut who just doesn't want to do anything but read every waking hour, and have inherited enough that I don't have to work and can afford as many books as I want, even then there's far more books out there than I can ever possibly read. Why would I pick yours?

      Given all this it is irrational to worry about illegal copying. If anything, getting your books included into some torrent will increase, not decrease, your sales, because it increases the chances that Joe Pirate will read said book. This in turn will increase the chances that Joe buys a book of yours the next time he sees them somewhere - because, after all, books are cheap and superior in comfort to computer display, not to mention the hassle of searching for it online. Finally, and most importantly, if Joe reads his book, he might mention it to his friends, which in turn helps make your name familiar to them.

      If I ever begin a literary career, I'll be pushing my books into P2P networks myself. Mindshare is how you generate an audience and sales, and having people download your stuff is how you generate mindshare. A download is not a lost sale, it is a future sale in the making.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by east+coast · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you and the publishers are not only wrong, but in the publishers' case, possibly terminally wrong.

      Actually, I'm not wrong, you're looking in the wrong places for the wrong thing. And then you go off to mention Asimov? No surprise you've missed the point that publishers have to make to remain afloat...

      It's fucking *Asimov*! No shit it doesn't take strong arm techniques to keep authors like Asimov profitable but what do you do about the other 99.9% of what sits on the shelf at your local Borders? What about non-pleasure reading? Or are you telling me that the books I find on The Pirates Bay are all non-sales anyway? That's a joke of an excuse.

      And don't get me wrong, free samples? Sure, that can move books but how do you sell something if all of it is available for free? I'm not saying that the model doesn't work for some under certain circumstances but it doesn't work with the current numbers of the market. That's the difference.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    6. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Eternauta3k · · Score: 1

      If I ever begin a literary career, I'll be pushing my books into P2P networks myself. Mindshare is how you generate an audience and sales, and having people download your stuff is how you generate mindshare. A download is not a lost sale, it is a future sale in the making.

      You'll have trouble finding a publisher who's OK with you giving your books away.

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    7. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....after all, books are cheap....

      Unfortunately, not all books are cheap, such as textbooks for example. If publishers were to bring these out as electronic versions, I am sure they would lose quite a few sales to cash-strapped college students. Still, putting DRM on the electronic versions is a terrible idea. One way around this would be to require the purchase of a dead tree version, each of which comes with a little insert containing a code number, similar to the way software installations are usually done nowadays. The customer would use this number to download the electronic versions in a one-time registration process. The price of the electronic version would be included in the print version. Now the user would have both versions to use in their respective advantages. The buyer of the textbook could of course still cheat by giving or selling its registration information to another student resulting in a lost sale for the publisher. I think however, that most publishers could live with that.

      --
      All theory is gray
    8. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by DadLeopard · · Score: 1

      Baen publishing does it just the way your local drug pusher does it! First they hook you with the free samples then they get you to buy the newest ones in the series, because you can't wait for them to be released free, then you start buying the ARC (Advanced Readers Copy) three months before they actually hit the printing presses! I am an addict! There I've said it!!

    9. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by east+coast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That business model has unreleased material you can get for a price. I can get entire authors works on Pirate's Bay for free. Nothing to buy. Zero. Why would I ever buy in that case? I'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong on this.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    10. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Spacejock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I talked my publisher into releasing my first novel as a freebie download (see sig), and over the past couple of months I've worked on them to the point that they're about to announce DRM-free ebook releases of all my novels. (The first is free, the rest about US$3.50 each.)

      Trust me, it was hard work convincing them this was the way to go, but I don't believe people want $10-$15 encrypyted ebooks they could lose access to at any moment.

      The most common complaints with ebooks are ... too expensive when they're priced at a similar amount to a hard copy, and too much trouble when they're DRM-locked. My publisher is addressing both with this release, and we're hoping it'll catch on.

    11. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Spacejock · · Score: 1

      If you buy the ebook direct from the publisher you know you're getting a proofed, complete copy of the original title. Download a rar file with a thousand ebooks from some torrent and you could end up with anything - rough OCR jobs, chapter headings and page numbers every 20 lines or so, missing pages, wrong authors, wrong titles, someone's homage to Asimov meets JK Rowling ...

      If ebooks were a reasonable price people would buy them in bigger quantities. The problem at the moment is that $10-$15 is vastly overpriced for a digital file.

      There will always be piracy. The question is whether 3000-4000 new ebook sales would generate enough royalties for an author to write full time, not whether another 30,000 people stole their copy.

      Finally, people are loyal to their favourite authors. If they come across half a dozen pirated ebooks and start enjoying them, who knows ... maybe they'll buy one or two of them just to say thanks, or maybe they'll be first in line when the author's next title hits the shops.

    12. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The most common complaints with ebooks are ... too expensive when they're priced at a similar amount to a hard copy, and too much trouble when they're DRM-locked.

      I bought two ebooks several years ago - one from Amazon and one from Adobe. Both were infested with DRM, which was not mentioned until after I had downloaded them (which was obviously after paying). Both had restrictions on printing, copying (cut/paste was actively crippled), and the need for remote authorization prevented transfer to other PCs. There was also an arduous re-authorization process to be followed every time Acrobat was updated, or if you wished to transfer the reading rights to a new PC.
      The ebook bought from Adobe subsequently annoyed me greatly for another reason: after a year or so, Adobe closed their ebook store and announced that they would no longer support re-authorizations for Acrobat version changes or changes of PC. Instead, I was instructed to make an archive/frozen copy of Acrobat (v5?) using a special procedure, so that I could keep reading the book with that version even when newer versions of Acrobat were installed. Oh, and no re-authorizations for new PCs either.
      The ebooks had cost me as much as the printed equivalents, but had merely arrived sooner. However, their DRM also obliterated my usual right to buy or sell second-hand. Together with the major DRM inconveniences, they were essentially a rip-off for worthless merchandise. Those disastrous ebooks were eventually deleted and replaced by real books, so I ended up paying double. Because of this experience, I swore off all ebooks with DRM of any kind. I will not buy an ebook unless it is explicitly provided without DRM. We continue to buy real books at a rate of several per month.

      My publisher is addressing both with this release, and we're hoping it'll catch on.

      I hope so also; it sounds like a reasonable approach. We're a "books from dead-trees" house, with more than 5000 on our shelves, but there are probably about a hundred non-DRM ebooks as well. Our kids greatly prefer books that can be held in your hand over text on a screen. Some of the reasons given are: reading without batteries or booting, turning the pages, the feel of the paper, putting unique bookmarks (e.g. horse's hair woven into a thread) in special places, and so forth.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    13. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      You'll have trouble finding a publisher who's OK with you giving your books away.

      Seemed to work for Jim Baen (see links above).

    14. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You never gave money to anyone begging in the streets, right?

      Not wanting to sound holier-than-thou, but spending money on something you consider worthwhile is a way of "voting with dollars".

      Not saying there aren't more reasons to buy material, but you asked for one, well, here is one.

    15. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Andrew1963 · · Score: 1

      you and the publishers are not only wrong, but in the publishers' case, possibly terminally wrong. Actually, I'm not wrong, you're looking in the wrong places for the wrong thing. And then you go off to mention Asimov? No surprise you've missed the point that publishers have to make to remain afloat...

      If you read what he wrote, you will see that he was talking about Asimov _at the beginning of his career_. Nowadays Asimov is recognised as one of the greats, but at the time he was just another struggling author.

      It's fucking *Asimov*! No shit it doesn't take strong arm techniques to keep authors like Asimov profitable but what do you do about the other 99.9% of what sits on the shelf at your local Borders? What about non-pleasure reading? Or are you telling me that the books I find on The Pirates Bay are all non-sales anyway? That's a joke of an excuse. And don't get me wrong, free samples? Sure, that can move books but how do you sell something if all of it is available for free? I'm not saying that the model doesn't work for some under certain circumstances but it doesn't work with the current numbers of the market. That's the difference.

      If you think this, you are mistaken. Baen have been running a very successful experiment for years. After disccions with Jim Baen, Eric Flint started the Free Library and put some of his books up. When he received his next royalty statement he noticed that receipts for the books he had put up _increased_. If you read his "Prime Palavers" he gives a good explanation of why DRM will fail for boos, as it has for RIAA and MIAA.

    16. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      No you can't. Last time I checked Eye of the Storm wasn't out on TPB.

    17. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      I don't know how many authors I've discovered by checking out their books at the library, then buying other of their books later.

      That's nothing! You should see the authors I've discovered by checking out their books at the library, reading them, and then returning them once I was done. (OMG no money changed hands! I'm a criminal!)

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    18. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To support the authors. I do this with books as well as music. Most of my friends do the same. Sure we pirate, but if it's worth the money (most of it is not, we'll put the money forth. In essence, we try before we buy, and only support the art that is deserving.

    19. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tor Books publishes ebooks with no DRM and has a free library for the very business reasons mentioned.
      You might want to check it out. They make a compelling case and they sell more ebooks than any other company.

    20. Re:At least there's a vendor involved by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      My point was that even Asimov's best known and most highly acclaimed work needed a publisher who could promote him. he got absolutely NO royalties on the Foundation trilogy until Doubleday bought the righs. That was back when I was a baby, and we had no internet to publicize stuff with. The other 99% need and needed even better promotion.

      And don't get me wrong, free samples? Sure, that can move books but how do you sell something if all of it is available for free?

      Read the two links. Most people will support authors. Books have been free forever; I could never have been able to afford all the books I've read, especially when I was a kid. I trotted my young ass down to the library every other day and carted half a dozen books back. But the fact that I could always read books for free NEVER stopped me from buying books.

  3. Same S***, Different Pile by camperdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We're going to go through the same problem again in about ten years when those 3d printer/modelling machines get really cheap. First music, then video, then books, then "solids" or whatever they'll be called.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by arogier · · Score: 1

      That innovation will do miracles for the art of counterfeiting. Or radically free the collectibles industry to democratization.

    2. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The order does look funny to me. It should have been books, music and then video.

      That's what it should be in terms of bandwidth anyway, but because of the lack of a good electronic paper, audio and video came first because the "playback" hardware already existed.

    3. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by RingDev · · Score: 1

      We're not that far off now. Not too long ago I bought 3 resin cast models from Forge World to the tune of almost $200.

      Had I spent the time and rendered my own versions of those models in 3dsm and sent it off to a 3-d printing service, I could have had them for about $300.

      I'm sure with a bulk order and some negotiating I could have easily gotten the price of a 3-piece order to under $200. The only major cost would be my time.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    4. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh no it's way more insidious than that. The book publishing industry have wanted to kill the used book and discount industry for centuries now. The eBook and 95 tonnes of DRM on it will Kill that industry they so despise with a passion.

      Writers are lucky to get $1.00 a book sold, that's if you signed a really good contract. I have 3 books published, I did what many writers consider career suicide. I told my publishers to go pound sand and I started self publishing. I now make $10.00 per book sold.

      Because the publishers are raging assholes, I can never get "published" by any of the big publishing houses, I have been blackballed in the industry.

      I really dont care. I will never use a traditional publisher again. They are honestly useless in today's world. My books are on the shelves of Barnes and noble and in Amazon.com without them.

      I just have to do the little bit of work they did.
      Many big traditional publishers are forcing writers to add DRM even if they don't want it on any e-releases of their books.

      If there is a way to destroy every old traditional publisher making them penny-less, I'm all for it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Writers get a far, far better deal than musicians get. They generally get a percentage of the sales price, an advance on that that they don't have to give back if the book doesn't earn out, and no deductions for "expenses".

      --
      The cake is a pie
    6. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      but because of the lack of a good electronic paper, audio and video came first because the "playback" hardware already existed.

      I would argue that books have taken so long because they're so much more difficult than music and video to digitize.

      In 1998 I could easily rip my music collection and offer it to the world. In 2002 I could easily rip my video collection and offer it to the world. But I still can't easily rip my book collection.

    7. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by camperdave · · Score: 2, Funny

      That innovation will do miracles for the art of counterfeiting. Or radically free the collectibles industry to democratization.

      Yeah! No longer will the antiques market be dominated by people with a bunch of old junk in their house. We'll be able to make brand new antiques at the click of a button!

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about the actual information, not your at-home-ripping process. Scanning a book to end up with a high-resolution bitmap graphic is pointless if the original information could be a text file.

      As the information itself goes, however, you could still re-type it all. And the publisher has the book in digital format too.

    9. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm quite curious, how about a little shameless self promotion and link some of the books you've self published here. I wouldn't mind supporting you, if your books are something I might read.

    10. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Because the publishers are raging assholes, I can never get "published" by any of the big publishing houses, I have been blackballed in the industry.

      I'm curious as to what segment of the industry you publish in. Self-publishing by itself won't get you blackballed in the parts of it I'm familiar with (SF/F/H) but perhaps it works differently in other markets? I can't help but suspect, though, that you maybe did some bridge-burning of your own to get that kind of reaction.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    11. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think most people would consider retyping a book to be a way to "easily rip". Never mind formatting and diagrams, etc. And because the publisher has the book in digital doesn't mean they distribute it. So it makes perfect sense that music and video beat books to the punch.

    12. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Kabuthunk · · Score: 1

      Do you have any advice, or specific webpages I should go to in order to get info on self-publishing? By blind coincidence, I was giong to be emailing/phoning around to various publishers to see what's involved with getting a book I'm writing published. If I can do a little extra elbow-work and avoid the publishers, but still manage to get the book into book stores/amazon, I'd be all for that.

      --
      Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
    13. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by __aabvlw4075 · · Score: 1

      Writers are lucky to get $1.00 a book sold, that's if you signed a really good contract. I have 3 books published, I did what many writers consider career suicide. I told my publishers to go pound sand and I started self publishing. I now make $10.00 per book sold.

      So the question then is: Are you selling more or less than 10% of the quantity of books you would be if you had a publisher working for you?

    14. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      "Blackballed", eh? Bollocks. Getting a book published isn't easy, and it shouldn't be. The manuscript needs to be either good or commercially viable, preferably both, and most are neither. Most wannabe writers fail. It's not common to create conspiracy theories to explain one's failure, though.

      And regarding the used book market: it's not much of a competitor to the traditional publishers. In fact, it's a vital part of the market for out of print books, books that the publisher doesn't want to or can't keep in storage forever -- although they do want them circulating. It's not different to a library. I don't know how common it is, but I know of one medium sized publisher that had a second-hand bookshop themselves. It still exists, independently of the publisher.

      And if you think traditional publishers are useless, you probably also think proof-reading and editing is useless. Perhaps that's why no one will bother publishing your stuff.

    15. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by maxume · · Score: 1

      I'm not real confident that publishers would have older books in digital format. And I mean 15 years old, not 50.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    16. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      A link to Amazon would be nice.

      I'd like to see what kind of books you write.

    17. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Spacejock · · Score: 2, Informative

      My article on self-publishing is here, and you'll also find articles on POD, finding a publisher, seeking an agent, etc.

      (I self-published back in 2001, and after putting out three titles in the same series I was picked up by a traditional publisher. Therefore my articles cover both sides of the coin.)

    18. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by blackest_k · · Score: 1

      Actually unless your talking purely commercially it was books first then music (mods, midi, mp3) then animation then video.

      I would say by 1996 there existed for example the LSD Docs series of releases a lot of stuff scanned and OCR'd Mainly manuals for games and utilities and a few articles all squeezed into 800 k floppys. And perhaps one of the most infamous publications the anarchists cook book

      Book publishers still don't get digital content. As a Consumer I want stuff now and an excellent compromise would be to deliver me a DRM free pdf file or similar and post me the book when you can. The digital file should be free with the physical book or a trivial price a matter of cents without. I don't particularly care that I might need to credit my account with say 10 dollars at a time to make the transaction feasable.

      it's that simple but until publishers get it, there will be electronic copies made anyway gaining the authors nothing.

    19. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      There is something else about books. We like the hard copy and printing it yourself sux more than the 10 dollars you pay at a book store.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    20. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      He/she never said they fail. In fact they never mentioned the sales figures. He/she also never said anything about *not* using a publisher but not just one of the big publishers.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    21. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Not getting published is failure. But if you follow the GP's homepage link, you'll find links to his books, photo books without much text. You can preview them. Nice photos, pity about the lack of proofreading and editing. Most traditional publishers know that "it's" isn't the possessive form of "it", for instance.

    22. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by martyros · · Score: 1

      The order does look funny to me. It should have been books, music and then video.

      All things being equal, yes... but things are not equal:

      • Listening to music on a computer is a lot better than reading a book on a computer.
      • Portable mp3 players are a lot cheaper than portable book readers; and you needed some technical thing to listen to that CD or casset anyway, whereas the non-technical version of books are still the preferred method for the vast majority of consumers.
      • Digitizing music from a CD (or even a cassette) is orders of magnitude easier for a consumer than digitizing a book.
      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    23. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It's the introduction of eBooks that have finally made the mass-pirating of books possible, as they can be easily copied and transmitted across the planet. Before eBooks, it was simply cheaper and easier to buy the real physical book than it try to copy it.

    24. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Blackballed", eh? Bollocks. Getting a book published isn't easy, and it shouldn't be.

      Obvious you don't even go into a bookstore or look at the NYT top sellers list.

      60% of the drivel tat is published is crap and easily published. The tripe that the loser herioin addict of howard sterns? that garbage get's top billing and published not because the content is fantastic but because he is a big name. all the senators getting published because of their name ,etc...

      If you are "known" you get published without effort, even if you cant write. For Fucks sake "joe the plumber" has a fucking book published.

      Lumpy is pretty damned spot on, I;m personally sick of the craploads of useless garbage sold in bookstores. Holy shit, did you even read the worthless unreadable drivel in Bill Gate's last 2 books? The fuckers first book cratered hard and they published a second one from him? Then we have the morons from the last election all selling newly big publisher books. Even that raging nutjob VP candidate from Alaska has a book coming out! She cant even speak the language correctly!

      It's disgustingly easy to get published today, you just need to be "in the spotlight" or "popular" or know the right person.. it has NOTHING to do with your skill as a writer.

    25. Re:Same S***, Different Pile by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Joe the plumber and Howard Stern are both in the "... or commercially viable" category. At any rate, the fact that a lot of garbage gets published (true) has absolutely nothing to do with what Lumpy wrote, so you must be really fucking dumb.

  4. Not all of them. Baen does not. by gweihir · · Score: 5, Informative

    Have a look at Baen books: They publish everything also as downloadable without any DRM (HTML/RTF/PDF) and you can buy months (4-6 books) or individual books. Individual books cost about the paperback price, a month costs about twice that. You typically also get the first 1/3 of a book as fee sample. They also have a "free library" where you get older books in the same formats entirely for free.

    Eric Flint coordinates the free library. He has a series of postings on the effect and it seems to be very postive, with older books suddenly producing significat income for the authors, which they did not before.

    Of course this only works for good quality books, but for them it works. I found myself buying more and trying authors I would otherwise have overlooked.

    References:
    http://www.baen.com/
    http://www.baen.com/library/

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by emj · · Score: 1

      Yeah but they mostly publish the glorified-war-sci-fi kind. But sure I really recommend buying books from them they have some really good book and they are cheap.

    2. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by emj · · Score: 1

      that was unfair, I did read The Immoratilty option it was one of the better sci-fi ideas I've read and there wasn't any of that glorification.

    3. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite; your post commits the broken window fallacy.

    4. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Last time I looked (which, because of your post, was about 30 seconds ago) Baen do not offer PDF downloads. They also do not offer a download in any format with semantic markup suitable for generating a high-quality PDF. This limits you to horribly-typeset text which will either make you feel tired or your attention wander when you read them on an eInk device. They would do well to learn from FeedBooks, which produces beautiful PDFs from Project Gutenberg texts using TeX, typeset for various eBook readers. The reply I got from their CEO when I suggested this made me wonder if he'd ever read a book all the way through.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Puffy+Director+Pants · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Baen does have a pretty narrow focus. You buy one of their books, chances are you know what you're going to get.

    6. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They have a specific focus. But I think their experiences _are_ representative.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by R2.0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Yeah but they mostly publish the glorified-war-sci-fi kind. But sure I really recommend buying books from them they have some really good book and they are cheap."

      That's not particularly true. They publish a lot of fantasy, and have had a huge success in the alternate history genre. That being said, Jim Baen (rest his soul) was quite conservative and tended to buy from authors who he liked, so they tend to be conservative as well. With notable exception - Eric Flint was a labor organizer, and Bujold could hardly be described as "right of center".

      As for the "glorified-war-sci-fi" comment, have you ever actually read any David Drake, particularly works from the Hammer's Slammers series? His stories are mostly through the eyes of soldiers who have no illusions as to "the glory of war". Or if they do, it doesn't last very long. But yes, some of the other series lay it on a bit thick.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    8. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by R2.0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You probably talked directly to Jim Baen, the publisher, and I'd guess he was irritated that you didn't read the FAQ.

      "But what about PDF?

              These formats have been extensively considered for WebScriptions. However, Baen Books does not currently plan to support them. If you would like to discuss these decisions, please visit Baen's Bar."

      That's not a blow-off answer; Baen's Bar is a very active forum that the authors and publisher use and pay attention to, and they've responded to the PDF question many times before.

      Oh, and considering that Jim Baen was an editor for many years, I'd guess he's read more books than you and I combined.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    9. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny, I would put David Drake in the category of glorification of War for just that reason, the soldiers actually feel superior for the way they think of it. Believe it or not, the War is Hell is very much a part of the whole glorification.

      And their alternative history books are very much the glorified-war-sci-fi kind. The 1632 series, for example, practically drips it.

    10. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by vanyel · · Score: 1

      Fictionwise.com has a number of non-drm'd books ("Multiformat") in all genres. There is more non-drm'd content that I'm interested in than I have time to read as it is, so the publishers forcing drm are shooting themselves.

    11. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Of course this only works for good quality books

      Indeed, like the music industry. If an album only has one good tune, they don't want anybody to hear any of the crap.

      DRM is a crapware shield.

    12. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      The Honor Harrington series is about how war sucks. She gets mutilated and nearly killed almost every book. In every book 90% of the characters introduced are killed. Ace pilots with lots of character development? Oops lucky shot they're all dead now. A minor firefight typically wrecks the ship and kills lots of the crew. There's no, "Shields holding Captain" like in StarTrek. Its all about chickenhawk politicians rattling sabres and pushing for "Glorious war" and totally ruining their nation. The fact that you have a Mary-Sue who always wins and kicks the bad guys ass doesn't change the fact that she doesn't want to fight, and that stupid politicians make it necessary. The foppish nobles who sign on for the glory of battle end up with their eyes open, or dead. Victories are almost always Pyhrric, with the victor suffering horrific losses, holding off annihilation, but with an enemy with many times their numbers. Again, as I said, almost all the new characters in each book die by the end.

      Just because the Admiralty and House of Lords are all very rah rah pro war, and are major players in the plot...doesn't mean the book is. Anybody on the "good" side that believes in the glory if war is almost invariably the "enemy within".

      David Drake's work is also very much along the same lines. Just because its a military book doesn't mean its pro-war. I understand Eric Flint is also much along those same lines, but haven't read his stuff. Bujold hardly strikes me as glorifying war. The main character in the Miles Vorkosagan series is considered a freak because he's deformed due to a nerve gas attack while his mother was pregnant. He's a secret agent, he invariably works to stop assassinations and wars. He almost always ends the book with broken bones and other injuries. He's now epileptic due to severe nerve damage, and has to regularly induce seizures to prevent them from happening at inopportune moments. Glorious indeed.

      All in all, I would say the unifying theme across Baen's sci-fi military books (those I've read anyway) is politicians who believe in the glory of war, and the grunts who end up dying for political stupidity. I see some AC saying that's the same thing as glorifying war, which makes no sense to me at all! So...the politicians are stupid for thinking war is glorious. The actual soldiers know its hell and they don't want to be there...thus the message is that soldiers are better than politicians...therefore war IS glorious because it makes you a better person? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently?

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    13. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by rts008 · · Score: 1

      You probably talked directly to Jim Baen, the publisher, and I'd guess he was irritated that you didn't read the FAQ.

      Sorry to be the one to pass you the sad news: Jim Baen passed away last year. I heard who had taken over for him, but don't recall his name, and a quick scan of baen.com home page did not help me...sorry.

      You sound like a fellow fan, so have you seen thefifthimperium.com site? Download or read online cd's of Baen books....Free!

      I buy a lot of my books from Baen now days. (heh! I have already read all of the free stuff!)

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    14. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Believe it or not, the War is Hell is very much a part of the whole glorification.

      Here's the thing: the hellishness of war does isolate the people who experience it, and soldiers very often do come to think of themselves as superior because they've been through things that most people don't understand. It's impossible to write a realistic depiction of war without portraying the phenomenon, and depiction is not the same thing as glorification. I agree, however, that it's a fine line to walk -- it's very easy to slip into "we few, we happy few" without mentioning how deeply screwed up this mentality is. FWIW, I think Drake does a good job of showing that when this happens to people, it constitutes a type of damage, just as much as physical injury does. Weber, not so much. Flint is somewhere in the middle.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    15. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by phorm · · Score: 1

      Hogan's written some good books. This was one of the first of his books I've read, but I grabbed a bunch of others (some a fair bit older) and they're all quite good.

    16. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Puffy+Director+Pants · · Score: 1

      Actually, most of the things you describe about Baen books as if they somehow were against the glorification of war are those very things I see as demonstrating it.

      Especially the stuff about the politicians, and the over-dramatized Redshirts. And the injury-ridden protagonists? Yeah, that's part of it too.

      Believe it or not, it's not glorification from the political side that's meant, but from the grunt side. If it were from that side, it'd be propaganda instead.

    17. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Puffy+Director+Pants · · Score: 1

      Well, so far as it goes, I agree with you about Drake doing a better job than Weber.

    18. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by WolfWalker545 · · Score: 1

      Toni Weisskopf is the new publisher, she was Jim's executive editor before he died. One reasons Baen doesn't publish in PDF is that Adobe wanted ridiculous amounts of money for a license to do so, so Jim decided not to bother.

    19. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by rts008 · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is the name I was looking for.

      She? No, that has to be fiction! :-)

      Thanks for the info.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    20. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      You are right. It IS glorification. That is the glory of war. The Soldiers who give their all and fight, sacrifice and die for their comrades and the greater good. It is glorious. War is Hell and Glory. That is the attraction of these kinds of Novels.

    21. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They offer native formats for all of the major book readers. Sony and Kindle etc... I've never had any issue with the format.

    22. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      They don't provide any format which can display on the iRex iLiad without third-party software either on the computer or the device to convert it.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    23. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Now publishers offer similar services as record labels. Professional editing, distribution and marketing. Like traditional music publishing, it is expensive to get someone started, and they only make money back on 10% of authors they sign.
      eBooks turn this upside down because it cost very little to get someone started, but it is difficult to get buzz and word out to get eyeballs on the page. They need to work out what service they can make money with. The traditional markets don't make sence, I can download a book fro a US server just as fast as someone in the US, nit like having to wait for a book to be printed and shipped here. And unsold ebooks don't have to be returned if they wern't shipped.
      But what happens when anyone can be published, is that you do get quite a lot of unreadable rubbish out there and it is hard to actually find the quality stuff. An interactive book store with social recomendations would be useful here.

    24. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't the iLiad support mobipocket?

    25. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Only if you install a third-party mobipocket reader, which you can only do if you put the device into developer mode. It doesn't work out-of-the-box, and neither does any other format that Baen produces. In contrast, feedbooks provides beautiful PDFs typeset with very small page borders for a page exactly the size of the device's screen. I can just click the download link, copy the file across, and start reading it. Supporting this would not be much effort for Baen, but they choose not to and so lose my custom.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    26. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      My bad - when you said you spoke to a man, I assumed you meant Jim before he had died - the "no PDF" policy has been in place for a loooong time.

      I have all of the CD's except the latest, both from Fifth Imperium and from a torrent tracker whose name escapes me now. I've actually bought ebooks from them - I went on a round trip to Guam and read all the graphic novels a friend gave me on the way out. Facing another 18 hour flight in coach with no entertainment, I bought 3 newer books and read them on my Treo. Worked pretty good, too.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    27. Re:Not all of them. Baen does not. by j-beda · · Score: 1
      "One reasons Baen doesn't publish in PDF is that Adobe wanted ridiculous amounts of money for a license to do so, so Jim decided not to bother."

      Is that still the case? Since PDF is an open standard does it cost anything to produce and distribute PDF documents?

  5. They use dead trees as DRM by emj · · Score: 1

    There is a persistant and politically powerful group of people [1] that state that they shouldn't publish as ebooks until there is a fail proof DRM for books. Just to get a picture how inane people can be.

    [1](the guys who decides the Nobel prize for literature)

  6. One Word... by cutecub · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Greed.

    That's all this is about. That's all its ever been about.

    -S

    1. Re:One Word... by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 1

      Nope, Honesty is what it is all about.

      Some people steal (yes, pirating is stealing and let's not quibble over the definition) what they can't have. Some people don't have the cranial capacity to understand that downloading stuff off the web is theft. The more that happens, the less money publishers and writers don't make.

      Here is a side effect of pirating books. Publishers are prone to market conditions too. When the market goes south, publishers tighten up and stop taking on new writers. They also start knocking off low performing writers (low performing compared to others in the stable.) Every book that is pirated, and to the same degree where a book is swapped on an internet site, means one less sale to the author which means less money in their pocket, 6-8% of the cover price AND one less sale in their numbers column. Under performers are cut.

      Pirating is NOT new, but the SCALE at which it can occur on the Internet is new. Back when vinyl was copied to cassettes, I bet the total impact was less than 1% of album sales because there really wasn't a big distribution channel, at least not in the US for illegal album copies.

      But you know as well as I that with electronic copies, the barriers are completely removed.

      That is why publishers want DRM. And, I think what killed the music industry and put Apple on top was NOT DRM, but the stakeholders--labels, distributors, and sellers--to come up with an *interoperable* format and method so that any song could be played on any device while still enforcing DRM.

    2. Re:One Word... by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      This misses the point. The book industry is taking actions that will lead to less money for the book industry.

      Saying "greed, that's all it is about" completely misses the fundamental irony.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    3. Re:One Word... by uniquename72 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yes, pirating is stealing and let's not quibble over the definition

      Saying, "Night is day and let's not quibble over the definition" doesn't make night and day the same thing. Piracy is infringement, not stealing.

      Every book that is pirated, and to the same degree where a book is swapped on an internet site, means one less sale to the author

      Replace the first 2/3rds of that sentence with "Every CD or video borrowed from the library..." to see why the argument is retarded.

      But you know as well as I that with electronic copies, the barriers are completely removed. That is why publishers want DRM.

      These 2 sentences together make no sense. If you add DRM, you still have an electronic copy.

    4. Re:One Word... by berend+botje · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But you know as well as I that with electronic copies, the barriers are completely removed.

      True, no barriers. Make a thousand copies in the blink of an eye. And still, every study that is not paid for by the industry itself says 'pirating' is actually beneficiary to the bottom-line.

      Sure, a lot of people get your product without paying for it. But they wouldn't have bought it anyway! No lost sales there. And there are (a lot actually) also people that had never heard of your product and now, due to free exposure, are suddenly buying your contents. Extra sales!

      Publishers want DRM for one thing, and one thing only: to be kept in the loop. They aren't needed anymore, obsolete, and they know it. But they don't want you to find out.

    5. Re:One Word... by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      I know this puts me at risk of being seen as quibbling over a definition. But if someone can't have something because they can't afford it, how does making a copy of it instead equate to theft? Tort, illegal, copyright/trademark/patent infringement sure. But theft? If you couldn't afford it to begin with, then your making a copy does not result in the publisher having anything less in terms of money or physical goods. Only if you would have actually purchased the item in the absence of an illegal alternative can it be argued that the publisher actually lost something. And so I have serious problems with using the term theft, which has a very clear legal meaning, to describe copyright infringement. In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. Since you cannot take copyright from someone, and since making a copy leaves the original undisturbed, it cannot possibly be theft. No one in their right mind would call it theft if you took a seed from a genetically engineered apple you found in the trash that was once bought in a store and planted them to make copies of that apple for your long term free enjoyment.

      Relying on copyright to protect your business when that copyrighted item is something that is effortless to reproduce if just plain foolishness. I am sympathetic to copyright holders to some extent. If someone is taking your copyright without permission to make money or use for public promotion, then certainly the copyright holder has a real case to make. But when a market goes south because the product is no longer marketable, then the company in that market needs to either adapt or die. If they fail to adapt, then another business will emerge to fill the void by approaching the market from a different direction.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    6. Re:One Word... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      pirating is stealing and let's not quibble over the definition

      It must be very convenient for you to be able to dismiss a fundamental argument over the meaning of a word which is central to the debate at hand as "quibbling." I seem to recall various Bush Administration officials doing the same thing with words such as "rights" and "torture." You may believe that copyright infringement is the same thing as stealing; a great many people, clearly, do not. By calling any objection to your position a "quibble," you are trying to cut them out of the debate. Sorry, you don't get to do that.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    7. Re:One Word... by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      And, I think what killed the music industry and put Apple on top was ...

      Wait, killed the music industry? I wasn't aware music was dead. I saw a pretty good band live last week. I'm browsing Amazon as we speak to try and buy the third Franz Ferdinand album. Was thinking of going out to a club tomorrow night (who wants to bet there'll be music?).

      Killed the music industry...AND put Apple on top? Apple, as in the owner of the hugely successful legal music retailer? Those guys who bucked the trend and showed that people would actually pay for music even when there's free alternatives?

      Sorry, I'm struggling to follow. Run it past me again?

    8. Re:One Word... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      yes, pirating is stealing and let's not quibble over the definition

      So if you make an illegal u-turn while driving I can call you a murdering pedophile, right? Since all crimes are equivalent and trivial things like definitions are just "quibbling".

    9. Re:One Word... by vonhammer · · Score: 1

      Ok, how about a phrase: short-sighted greed. Like when a software vendor screws their customers for short-term gains. Like when a salesman lies to his customers for short-term gain. I agree with GPP, it's all about simple (short-sighted) greed.

    10. Re:One Word... by Captain+Damnit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No one in their right mind would call it theft if you took a seed from a genetically engineered apple you found in the trash that was once bought in a store and planted them to make copies of that apple for your long term free enjoyment.

      Go ahead and plant it...the Monsanto legal department will be coming to seize your left testicle shortly.

    11. Re:One Word... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a side effect of pirating books. Publishers are prone to market conditions too. When the market goes south, publishers tighten up and stop taking on new writers. They also start knocking off low performing writers (low performing compared to others in the stable.) Every book that is pirated, and to the same degree where a book is swapped on an internet site, means one less sale to the author which means less money in their pocket, 6-8% of the cover price AND one less sale in their numbers column. Under performers are cut.

      Cry me a river. Have you ever checked out a book at a library, or browsed a magazine at the dentist's office? Fucking thief.

    12. Re:One Word... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Every book that is pirated, and to the same degree where a book is swapped on an internet site, means one less sale to the author which means less money in their pocket

      Quite trolling.

      We have these things called "Libraries", which has the exact same effect.

      The thing is, if it weren't for libraries I wouldn't even be motivated to own my own sci-fi book collection.

    13. Re:One Word... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you know as well as I that with electronic copies, the barriers are completely removed.

      The barriers are removed for everybody, publisher included. The fact that they don't take advantage of that is their problem.

    14. Re:One Word... by Spacejock · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The question boils down to this: Would I rather sell 100 ebooks heavily protected with DRM, and sleep sound knowing those 100 people are the only ones who can read my book.

      OR would I rather 150,000 people pirated and read my novel, and 200 people paid for a copy out of honesty, guilt, or because they were too inept to seek out a stolen copy?

      The second way I many twice as much money, even though it still wouldn't buy a meal for 4. I also reach more readers, some of whom might spring for a paperback.

      By the way, anyone who thinks that putting DRM on the ebook in the second example would lead to 150,000 sales is deluded, and clearly employed by those stats companies who report on how many $billions piracy is costing industry 'X'

    15. Re:One Word... by papershark · · Score: 1

      Saying, "Night is day and let's not quibble over the definition" doesn't make night and day the same thing. Piracy is infringement, not stealing.

      Being that infringement of copyright could get someone the wrath of RIAAs frivolous claims of damages and stealing something of low value as a first offence will get them a warning and a suspended sentence. Semantics is something they would be willing to argue.

  7. Greed Over User Experience? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually sounds like a pretty common mistake.

  8. Audible by thermian · · Score: 4, Informative

    Audible have already cornered the market in DRM encumbered audiobooks. I've been a regular customer of theirs for years, buying dozens of titles. Yet I have not a single drm file in my collection, thanks to those nice people who packaged up the 'how to strip Audible DRM' set and stuck it on piratebay that is.

    I'd prefer if they had no DRM to start with, but for the moment they have lots of titles I want, so I just pipe the downloaded files through the stripping process and discard their drm. It takes all of 20 minutes usually.

    If however they changed their DRM to make it harder to crack, I would cancel my account that day and never go back.

    --
    A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    1. Re:Audible by ianare · · Score: 1

      Why help support a company that treats you like a filthy criminal ? In your position I would simply download the torrent and be done with it.

    2. Re:Audible by murdocj · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, because just downloading the torrent w/o buying the product is theft. Period. If you really really hate DRM, don't buy the product and don't steal it either.

    3. Re:Audible by John+Hasler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Well, because just downloading the torrent w/o buying the product is
      > theft.

      No it isn't. Coyright infringement is a tort, illegal, wrong, and even a crime in some circumstances, but it is not theft.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    4. Re:Audible by thermian · · Score: 1

      Why help support a company that treats you like a filthy criminal ? In your position I would simply download the torrent and be done with it.

      Because I want the audibooks writer and performer to get paid for my enjoyment of their shared work. Its as simple as that. Everything else is just people trying to shove their agendas down my throat.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    5. Re:Audible by gutnor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Come on - always the same 'it is copyright infringement' bla bla bla

      Slashdot is not a court room - people say steal when they get something illegally without paying. Period.

      If you want to nitpick, regardless if you purchased the drm version or not, downloading the torrent is always copyright infringement. What do you tell your kid in those circumstances ? Moral Copyright Infringement vs Immoral Copyright Infringement ? Let's call the immoral one stealing and hope the second disappear one day.

    6. Re:Audible by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "No it isn't. Coyright infringement is a tort, illegal, wrong, and even a crime in some circumstances"

      That is called nitpicking.
      But I am glad to see that you are not one of the people that feel you are entitled to pirate media.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    7. Re:Audible by muuh-gnu · · Score: 1

      >people say steal when they get something illegally without paying.

      But its annoying as fuck to have those people making actions they dont agree with sound worse than they are just by calling them something else. Copying stuff has already been called theft, piracy, France's madman Sarkozy recently even went so far to call it "murder of the creation" (yes, he actually really did), but none of this actually is enough of a description of whats going on: people just exchange information and ignore the fact that somebody they never heard of from hundreds of miles away declared a "property" on that information. Ignorance of a artificial, disputed, unsupported by wide, wide parts of the public, "censorship right" (you probably wont deny that copyright is for-profit censorship) is in no way comparable to stealing stuff from people. Its only comparable if you want it to be.

      >Period.

      If you dont want somebody to correct you every time you call copyright infringement theft, then stop it or live with it. Your period aint gonna impress anybody.

    8. Re:Audible by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Why help support a company that treats you like a filthy criminal ? In your position I would simply download the torrent and be done with it.

      In this day and age, it's really hard to get away from. You probably
      experience the same BS in your day to day routine in meatspace and
      don't notice it anymore. It's pretty pervasive.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:Audible by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      "No it isn't. Coyright infringement is a tort, illegal, wrong, and even a crime in some circumstances"

      That is called nitpicking.
      But I am glad to see that you are not one of the people that feel you are entitled to pirate media.

      If you are going to dabble in LAW, ETHICS or MORALITY then you better be precise.

      The details matter.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Audible by berend+botje · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Car analogy time...

      Say I have a really neat device. I point it at your car, push a button and suddenly I have a copy of your car. Yours isn't harmed in any way. And everytime I push the button, I get another car, just like you still have. Tens, hundreds, thousands even.

      Have I just stolen your car? Have I stolen from the car company? Nope, I didn't.

    11. Re:Audible by berend+botje · · Score: 1

      Your period aint gonna impress anybody.

      Well, I've known this girl in Tucson that would probably amaze you...

    12. Re:Audible by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      people say steal when they get something illegally without paying

      Which people are these? The people who agree with you and are therefore right?

      When my neighbors house was robbed, they were pissed because their stuff had been stolen. They weren't mad because the culprits were "getting something illegally without paying for it." They were mad because the culprits had removed my neighbors own ability to possess what they'd paid for.

      I'll never understand the need for an otherwise intelligent person to get all upset about "nitpicking" when they are demonstrably wrong. Equating piracy with theft is analogous to creationists' ridiculous "But it's just a theory!" argument, in which they show a complete lack of understanding of what a "theory" actually is.

    13. Re:Audible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, but calling copyright infringement 'wrong' is a moral judgment call you can't make for someone else.

      It is also not necessary 'illegal'. Technically it is distributing unlicensed goods, only infringing on another's 'right' to sell copies (hence the name). If I procure a copy-right then not only do i own the right to distribute copies but I also incur the liability of maintaining the copyright. Fruit-flavored gelatin may or may not be called 'Jello' depending on who distributes it. That's what this whole thing is about - securing the copyright so it don't go all 'escalator' on them (look it up). Of course even that is only infringing on a copyright is you distribute the file to another person. Receiving the file (downloading) isn't even considered copyright infringement.

      But I digress.

      And last, because it is not 'illegal' it is not a 'crime'.

      But yes, it is a 'tort'. It is an offense against an individual/corporation to be handled in civil court between two or more private parties.

      I do so wish people would stop confusing civil law and criminal law. Just because I sue you doesn't mean you broke the law.

    14. Re:Audible by dissy · · Score: 1

      If you want to nitpick, regardless if you purchased the drm version or not, downloading the torrent is always copyright infringement.

      Go tell that to Linus and the Linux distros that are all up on torrents.
      Tell that to all the people that legally purchased World of Warcraft and just got forced to update.

      If you are trying to force a non $0 price tag on works of art i choose to give away for free, then how can you possibly be against the pirates for forcing other authors to have a $0 price tag when they choose a non zero dollar amount for their own works???

      Shame on you for forcing authors into doing something they don't want to do. You're no better than the pirates, just in the other direction.

      Keep your opinion of what my own works should cost to yourself, you have NO right to tell me otherwise, nor to accuse the people i choose to give my works away for free to 'copyright violators' and 'thieves' (Of which neither crime did they commit against me)

    15. Re:Audible by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Let's call the immoral one stealing and hope the second disappear one day.

      So I should call you a rapist if you exceed the speed limit on your way to work in the morning? You know, since all crimes are equivalent and it's just to discourage you from driving 2 miles over the limit.

    16. Re:Audible by cowscows · · Score: 1

      There's still something to be said for rewarding people for their hard work. The fact that something can be copied for a negligible cost and without harming the original doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any value attached to it. If I pour my heart and sweat into producing something like that, and ask for something in return for sharing it with you, there is an ethical obligation to pay for it if you want it.

      You haven't stolen my music/book/etc, but you have lessened my ability to support myself. Objectively, it's not as bad as stealing and depriving me of a physical possession, but the fact that it's not as bad as theft doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    17. Re:Audible by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      "What do you tell your kid in those circumstances ? Moral Copyright Infringement vs Immoral Copyright Infringement?"

      yes

      morality is more than just black and white. there are shades of grey and this is one of them.

      People should not make more through residual income than most people do through piece-work and hourly labor.

      If they do, they dont deserve any more of your money.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    18. Re:Audible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's call the immoral one stealing and hope the second disappear one day.

      Okay - you can refer to copyright infringement as stealin when everyone agrees that it's immoral. Good luck with that.

    19. Re:Audible by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Because I want the audibooks writer and performer to get paid for my enjoyment of their shared work. Its as simple as that. Everything else is just people trying to shove their agendas down my throat.

      Nicely put. I think you just "won the internet" for today.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    20. Re:Audible by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Nope. You take something without paying for it, you are stealing. Period. Same as if you walk into a bookstore and stuff a book under your jacket. It's called theft.

    21. Re:Audible by TobyWong · · Score: 2, Informative

      Says you. He is using the proper legal definition. You are some random clown on the internet who disagrees with him.

      --
      - Toby
    22. Re:Audible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "people say steal when they get something illegally without paying. Period."

      People quite often label something sold at a reduced price as a "steal".

      You didn't pay full price for every single thing you own? You dirty, rotten thief!

      Also, downloading a torrent is not always an infringement of copyright. Some torrents are uploaded by the copyright holder with full permission, some are covered by various licenses that allow sharing, some contain public domain works.
      Further, some are used in countries with "fair use" laws for actual fair use purposes. Not that any of the "infringement is theft" crowd like to admit fair use can be legal. They want you to buy the LP and the tape and the CD and the MP3.

    23. Re:Audible by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      With your (bad) analogy, you did not steal the material which is part of the car, but you "stole" the knowledge necessary to make the car. As for the definition of "stealing", I'm not good with the English language, but I thought the expression "stealing an idea" was common usage since very a long time. I even looked up in the dictionary and the very broad and vague definition of stealing in there certainly do apply to copyright infrigement. From a common language point of view, copyright infringmenent is under the broad category of stealing.

    24. Re:Audible by Nekomusume · · Score: 1

      Sadly, the audible format is the only way to get 99% of all the players to bookmark where you left off. I need a way to convert mp3s INTO audible format to get that one function.

    25. Re:Audible by Nekomusume · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy.

      It's the same as if you walked into a bookstore, took a book off the shelf, sat down with your laptop and scanned it, put the book back on the shelf, then put your scans up for download on piratebay.

    26. Re:Audible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why does copyright infringement require an entirely new set of laws, seperate and unrelated to theft? Clue me in here.

    27. Re:Audible by Spacejock · · Score: 1

      Look around for yPlay. You can set numerous bookmarks and pick whichever one you want to continue from.

    28. Re:Audible by Caetel · · Score: 1

      OK, now put money into that equation instead.

      Say I have a really neat device. I point it at your wallet, push a button and suddenly I have a copy of your wallet. Yours isn't harmed in any way. And everytime I push the button, I get another wallet, just like you still have. Tens, hundreds, thousands even.

      But I have harmed your money. Assuming you have cash in your wallet, by creating thousands of duplicates of it I am devaluing your hard earned cash. Of course, if everyone is now able to clone money, then it becomes worthless, and nobody has any incentive to earn it.

    29. Re:Audible by murdocj · · Score: 1

      No, I'm the person who has some morality... if I don't want to pay for something, I don't just take it. You can twist and squirm as much as you want, but when you take something without paying for it, you are stealing. You can argue as much as you want that you "aren't depriving anyone of anything" or "you wouldn't have paid for it anyway" or "that candy bar really wanted to be free, so I put it in my pocket", but the reality is, you wanted something, you didn't want to pay for it, so you grabbed it.

    30. Re:Audible by Nekomusume · · Score: 1

      Seems like it would be awsome for people who want to listen to audiobooks on their computers.

      For those of us who want to listen to them from their mp3 players (which mostly support audible), the issue stands, unfortunately.

  9. external books on Kindle - challenge to hackers by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Amazon's DRM specifically limits sharing books from the Amazon store. However I dont see ow it would limit other book formats from being loaded other than the lack of software for doing so. I would think some clever hacker would write that software. An alternative is to convert to MSWord file, then load that.

    1. Re:external books on Kindle - challenge to hackers by Zerth · · Score: 1

      It comes with a USB cable. It is easy to just copy them over. Alternatively, you can email it to them and they'll convert a limited number of formats for $.10 a hit.

    2. Re:external books on Kindle - challenge to hackers by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Amazon's DRM specifically limits sharing books from the Amazon store.

      And apparently also prevents buying e-books for someone else. You can't put a Kindle Book in a Wishlist. You can't put them in your Shopping Cart. You want 20 books, you need to buy them with 20 One-Click(TM) purchases. Only if you already own a Kindle can you Save for Later a Kindle Book (and you can't access that data outside of your Kindles).

      However I don't see how it would limit other book formats from being loaded other than the lack of software for doing so.

      You can upload free e-books to your Kindle. Some formats require Amazon to encode them for you.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    3. Re:external books on Kindle - challenge to hackers by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 1

      It's already been done.... there are converters for *.lit, it reads *.txt just fine, and it also reads *.mobi all on its own (*.amz is just a slight modification of it). The only time you have trouble is

      a. the publisher has a non-Amazon form of DRM on it.
      b. its a PDF or some other non-reflowable format.

      There are even a few ways to get it on... email it to the Kindle's email address, load it over USB cable (it acts just like a flash drive), or put it on an SD card. Now, if you want to get an Amazon-DRM'd book onto something else thats a different story.

  10. Luckily for the book publishers by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Funny

    nobody reads anymore. In fact, I'm notrqwh even lookitnag at whwat I'at typing right nwo.

  11. Not technical books... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    When my last book was made available in electronic form, I asked my editor about DRM. Her reaction, before I'd expressed an opinion on the subject, was 'don't worry - I'm used to authors hating DRM. We won't put any on if you don't want it.' The contract for my most recent book had a explicit clause added preventing the publisher from distributing it in any DRM-encumbered format.

    Tech book publishers know that what they provide of value is access to a large reservoir of knowledge. That is why they are creating things like Safari Books Online, which allows you to browse books online and buy DRM-free PDF copies (or get some included with your subscription) if you need to read more than a few pages.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Not technical books... by chromatic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Tech book publishers know that what they provide of value is access to a large reservoir of knowledge.

      That doesn't mean they treat authors any better than other types of publishers. Most publishers severly undervalue their authors -- there's no way that the publisher provided seven times the value to my most recent few books than I did. (If they took on seven times more risk than I did, that's not my problem. That's their broken business model.)

    2. Re:Not technical books... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      (If they took on seven times more risk than I did, that's not my problem. That's their broken business model.)

      So self-publish. Nothing's stopping you. Take on all of that risk yourself, and potentially get a much bigger return. The numbers in the linked article quite a way off what I'd calculated based on my last book, but they're just about within an order of magnitude. 18 months work for two authors seems like a lot for a single book - I'll have to assume that's part time. My last book took six months and I wrote a PhD thesis at the same time. I also didn't have any of the production problems they mention because I sent them a camera-ready manuscript (learn LaTeX - it is worth your time).

      If you've written a few books already, and they're selling well, then you're in a good position to negotiate a better contract on the next one. If the publisher would rather see you walk than pay you what you think you're worth, then take your manuscript elsewhere, either to another publisher or publish it yourself. You can avoid a lot of the risk by using an on-demand printer, although their per-page costs are a lot higher, so you'll probably make less in total if you do.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Not technical books... by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So self-publish. Nothing's stopping you.

      Indeed; I co-own an independent publishing company, and am actively working on two books right now.

      18 months work for two authors seems like a lot for a single book - I'll have to assume that's part time.

      Between the two of us, it was about eighteen months of full-time work. It was a long, detailed book that required a lot of research. Not all books are like that -- I can write an average-sized novel in six months.

    4. Re:Not technical books... by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 1

      It looks to me like authors severly undervalue themselves and as a result take contracts that give the lions share of the money to publishers. If you (or any other author) were stupid enough to sign a contract that gave you 10 cents for every 70 cents the publisher got then that is your fault. The fact that they are able to get authors to agree to terms like that is a clue that their buisness model isn't broken yet.

    5. Re:Not technical books... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Indeed; I co-own an independent publishing company

      So, where you say in the original post that it was 18 months, and you divide the royalty figure by two because two of you were working, that's... what? Bad maths, or just spin to try to make your company look better? Do you engage in that kind of interesting financial interpretation when you're paying your authors?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:Not technical books... by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, where you say in the original post that it was 18 months, and you divide the royalty figure by two because two of you were working, that's... what?

      Sloppy wording for back-of-the-envelope calculations. It was 18 calendar months on the calendar, but probably about 18 FTE months. I don't have an exact figure for how many hours we spent individually and collectively writing the book, but even at the most sinister possible interpretation of my numbers, $10,000 for nine months of full time work is a horrible rate.

    7. Re:Not technical books... by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you (or any other author) were stupid enough to sign a contract that gave you 10 cents for every 70 cents the publisher got then that is your fault.

      I agree, to a point. Exploitive contracts may be legal, but they're not ethical. (I believe a more ethical business would have more equitable remuneration models.)

      The fact that they are able to get authors to agree to terms like that is a clue that their buisness model isn't broken yet.

      Would you consider a gentleman's wager? Let's choose the head of a book publishing company at random (say, the one with animals on the cover). Ask him whether he can afford to pay authors 25% royalties. I suspect he'll say no.

  12. Think outside of the same box by unlametheweak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, everyone is now opening up (including Apple), but it took a long time, and Apple had already established its dominant position. So why are book publishers doing the same thing?"

    Because book publishers and record executives have the same types of personalities and intelligence that drives people into executive positions. They have the same token MBAs and Law degrees and lawyers that all "Business" people have. They all think-outside-of-the-box the same way.

    1. Re:Think outside of the same box by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, all evidence points to "yes"

    2. Re:Think outside of the same box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They all think-outside-of-the-box the same way.

      Nice. That's my new favourite quote.

  13. Ebooks are for chumps. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Funny

    Kindle
    The "Guide" on the other hand...

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Ebooks are for chumps. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      I tried this "wiki" thing, but the characters were lousy and the plot sucked.

      --
      The cake is a pie
  14. It is the YES-men problem by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No matter where you are, if you are there long enough, you will start to think that what happens around you is normal. That is a very generic way to describe the problem.

    To put it more concrete, the more time Bill Gates spend as they head of Microsoft, at Microsoft, surrounded by Microsoft, the more he got to believe that this is the way the world is. He no longer has any connections to the outside world and his own world has become one that agrees with what he thinks because his world ain't stupid enough no to.

    Yes-men are liked, get promoted, you make friends with them and pretty soon everyone around you is a yes-men.

    I am a volunteer cameraman. The unique thing about this job is that you become a faceless observer, the camera allows you to distance yourself from whatever you are filming yet who you are filming often assumes, because you are focussed on them (Yes, cameraman wit) that you are not just intrested but even part of their world. Once the camera is allowed in, you are part of the family.

    It allows me to see parts of the world that I would never see otherwise. I don't mean shocking things like secret societies, well actually I do, because I am still at the early stage but still.

    Take for instance, performance art. I have filmed pieces where the artists involved talked about the importance and meaning of what they did and how their new work was affecting the world, while a simple pan would have showed an audience of only other artists and then only because they were waiting for their turn.

    It is a common thing, you see property developers talking about new plans when you can see that NOBODY cares about it, architects presenting new exciting buildings that you have seen countless times before and are never going to work out or if they do end up and windy hellholes where nobody wants to work or live.

    People live in their own small world.

    And so the book publishers, they live in a world surrounded by other publishers and hear the thing from people who want to work as publishers and get promotoed. So you say what you think your boss wants to hear and the boss promotes those that say what he wants to hear and pretty soon you got a system where no outside information can get in. No previous information.

    Right now we are debating in the Netherlands about the selling of public utilities to foreign companies. Because that worked out so well in the US. But the people in the banks say it works so it must work. Nevermind the credit crisis caused by the same banks, privatisation is good because...

    Trust me, once a system has been in place for to long with nobody to shake things up, you have a small bubble of alternate reality that you have no hope of penetrating.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:It is the YES-men problem by ianare · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, kinda like this web forum called 'slashdot' where everyone in it thinks normal people actually care about openness of files, formats, and software.

    2. Re:It is the YES-men problem by nine-times · · Score: 1

      No matter where you are, if you are there long enough, you will start to think that what happens around you is normal. That is a very generic way to describe the problem....He no longer has any connections to the outside world and his own world has become one that agrees with what he thinks because his world ain't stupid enough no to.

      I think you're right to point out that this is a more generic problem than just "yes men". See, even if Bill Gates isn't surrounded by "yes men", when he's at Microsoft he's still surrounded with software developers. So everyone he's talking to people who think about things the way software developers (and software-developer managers) think about things, from the point of view that software developers look at things.

      They don't have to be yes-men, since they'll still take lots of things for granted. They'll get used to their coworkers agreeing with them, and they'll take that as evidence that they're 100% correct about certain things. Then when they encounter an alternate opinion, they'll be quick to disregard it because of this confidence that comes with being agreed with all the time.

      It happens with all sorts of groups, whenever you're surrounded by "like-minded people".

    3. Re:It is the YES-men problem by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      They don't have to be yes-men, since they'll still take lots of things for granted. They'll get used to their coworkers agreeing with them, and they'll take that as evidence that they're 100% correct about certain things. Then when they encounter an alternate opinion, they'll be quick to disregard it because of this confidence that comes with being agreed with all the time.

      1. Surround yourself with disagreeable people
      2. ...
      3. ... and if you think this model doesn't work, look around you ...
    4. Re:It is the YES-men problem by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Yes, because no one ever had any interest in buying a different mp3 player or type of computer...

      "normal" people may not be aware of these issues but they are limited by them just the same.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:It is the YES-men problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No matter where you are, if you are there long enough, you will start to think that what happens around you is normal. That is a very generic way to describe the problem.

      Yes.

      To put it more concrete, the more time Bill Gates spend as they head of Microsoft, at Microsoft, surrounded by Microsoft, the more he got to believe that this is the way the world is. He no longer has any connections to the outside world and his own world has become one that agrees with what he thinks because his world ain't stupid enough no to.

      Yes.

      Yes-men are liked, get promoted, you make friends with them and pretty soon everyone around you is a yes-men.

      Yes.

      I am a volunteer cameraman. The unique thing about this job is that you become a faceless observer, the camera allows you to distance yourself from whatever you are filming yet who you are filming often assumes, because you are focussed on them (Yes, cameraman wit) that you are not just intrested but even part of their world. Once the camera is allowed in, you are part of the family.

      Yes.

      It allows me to see parts of the world that I would never see otherwise. I don't mean shocking things like secret societies, well actually I do, because I am still at the early stage but still.

      Yes.

    6. Re:It is the YES-men problem by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slashdot (as a single minded group) might suppose that most everybody on Slashdot cares about open files, formats, and software. However, Slashdot certainly doesn't operate under the false impression that it represents normal people!

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    7. Re:It is the YES-men problem by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      I think most /.ers know perfectly well that "normal people" don't care about openness. Many of us think people should care about it, and harbor the hope, however naive it may be, that they will care if they understand the implications better.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    8. Re:It is the YES-men problem by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if we agreed to investigate whatever boring thing they are into, they could agree to investigate these boring things we are into.

  15. If they want to put added value into dead-trees by line-bundle · · Score: 1

    Book publishers could do some things to get the dead-tree edition people to buy. Off the top of my head here are some suggestions:

    1. Customized paper/covers. A person orders a book and specifies what paper they want or cover they want. They could keep the common formats around, and the truly exotic could be print-on-demand (high quality)

    2. Paper/electronic combo. Focal Press (a photography publisher) already does this already. Photos look shit on displays which is why their paper books work.

    3. upgradeable book. Mail in your old book for a new edition (perhaps for a slight premium). Useful for technical books.

  16. answer by blhack · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So why are book publishers doing the same thing?

    Because the companies are run by old-timer that are still trying to apply a set of rules that no longer apply to a failing business model.

    Look, the internet is here, it isn't leaving. Portable electronics are not some sort of passing fad. Dead-tree publishing is an old technology. As things like the kindle and the sony reader start showing people that they don't need to purchase a stack of paper to read a book, they're going to start demanding that when they purchase a book, they own the *book* not the rights to display the text of it on one specific device.

    People are starting to catch on to it, too. There is a marketing tool that we use at my work that requires a serial # to activate. Since then, we have installed the software for all of the serials (this is a result of everybody demanding that they need access to it...not just the people we bought it for).
    I finally told the boss that we don't have any more serials, we need more, and this is how much it's going to cost. He flipped out. Why was I being so difficult! The receptionist isn't using her copy any more, just use the serial number for that one!

    I'm sure this is pretty common. People don't understand how completely and totally ridiculous DRM is until they actually run into it. As digital media becomes more and more ubiquitous, this is happening more and more and people are having their eyes opened.

    Another example is when my Dad decided that he wanted to add MP3 playback capability to his home automation system (like what I showed him at my house). Problem was that all(most) of his music had been purchased in the iTunes Music Store and the tool that I was using for music playback ran on linux.

    Sadly, it might actually take as long as it takes for some of the people running these companies to retire before things start to change.

    --
    NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    1. Re:answer by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      The bulk of your father's music can likely be upgraded to the DRM free format (with a higher bitrate) for a small cost. iTunes should be able to show you a list, I think you get to it via a menu somewhere. Tell him it is a tax on those of us who valued convenience over DRM.

      Of course that isn't MP3 playback, but I assumed you meant digital music playback.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    2. Re:answer by blhack · · Score: 1

      The bulk of your father's music can likely be upgraded to the DRM free format (with a higher bitrate) for a small cost.

      It's okay, Apple maintains a library of every version of iTunes...meaning that I can download an older version and use it along with qtfairuse to just extract unencrypted .aac files from RAM.

      The thing is that most people don't have somebody around to do that for them. For them, they're stuck paying a fee for it.

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
  17. It's all about fear by Sheepmage · · Score: 1

    I feel like many industries are afraid of what new technology is going to do to their bottom line. Because of this, you see these very defensive moves that hurt the growth of the industry and hurt the consumer. Really, I think these businesses should be first asking the question, 'what's the best way for the consumer to make use of our products?', and then ask the question, 'how can we monetize it?'.

    If you provide a value, I believe people are willing to pay for it. On the other hand, if you fail to provide what people want, you're just asking for someone to step in and replace what you do (or dominate the marketplace, as in the case of Apple and the RIAA).

  18. Why? by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

    "So why are book publishers doing the same thing?"

    Making a broad generalization, but the answer is simple - because they, like music execs before them, are stupid.

    Ok, that's harsh. More accurately, they are ill-informed. Just because you managed to become an executive of a company that deals with IP rights does not mean you are aware of what is going on in the world-at-large. In a perfect world, yes, the upper management of a company should be well-informed and make intelligent decisions based on more than just the digits on their own balance sheets but few executives in these companies truly know what DRM is and all the pros and cons of it, for example. They are simply ill-informed. So it should come as no surprise when the majority of them make stupid choices.

  19. Book publishers need catchy hit singles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    People don't have the attention spans for a full exploration of a theme across an entire novel.

    They want one or two really catchy pages at a low price. Something you can dance to.

    1. Re:Book publishers need catchy hit singles by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      They want one or two really catchy pages at a low price.

      ... and package it as a torrent.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  20. Re:Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Funny

    They don't have to, they hire people to do it for them.

  21. Publishers are like auto makers... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Relying on a product model that worked well in the past, selling products that they hope to sell, and clueless about the future. Except the government won't be throwing buckets of cash at them since no one cares about the extinction of bookworms.

    1. Re:Publishers are like auto makers... by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      That would be US auto makers.

    2. Re:Publishers are like auto makers... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Yes. YOU automakers are the problem. :P

  22. Not ignorance, fear by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They are not ignorant of history they are afraid of it and so are trying to cling to what they have for as long as possible.

    1. Re:Not ignorance, fear by tenco · · Score: 4, Informative

      history != future. They are afraid of the future.

    2. Re:Not ignorance, fear by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed. They may know the history but not understand the cause and effect that made it come about. Which is still ignorance.

      They fear a future of "free" or extremely inexpensive books with the current big distributors largely cut out of the market... which is in fact what will happen if they do not offer alternatives. The recording industry fought and did not embrace alternatives, and so the changing market has been shutting them out, while those who did embrace the new market(s) are doing fine.

      What the publishers need to do is embrace this future, rather than trying to prevent it. It is inevitable. If they accept the changes to their market, and work with those changes, they can stay in the game. If they don't, they will be shut off as surely as those others are being shut off.

    3. Re:Not ignorance, fear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the publishers need to do is embrace this future, rather than trying to prevent it. It is inevitable.

      You're saying that the future is inevitable? What are you, some sort of psychic?

    4. Re:Not ignorance, fear by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Correct, but they are afraid of the future because of the history of what has/is happening to the music industry.

    5. Re:Not ignorance, fear by mirkob · · Score: 1

      as always when the argument of DRM and related matters come at hand i suggest everyone to read the essays of eric flint a sf writer and editor for one of the few on-line only sf magazines baen-univers

      http://baens-universe.com/authors/Eric_Flint

      at this page you all could read many illuminating essays about copyright and DRM mainly related to the book industry but not only

      start from the bottom of the page and skip the editorial articles and the only story and you will have a series of illuminations on the topic!

  23. html not enough for you? by emj · · Score: 1

    I don't get it they give you HTML, in what why isn't that ok for eInk displays?

  24. Re:Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat by just_another_sean · · Score: 4, Funny

    They don't have to, they hire people to do it for them.

    Well now that the Kindle 2 has free TTS they don't need keep hiring those people.

    --
    Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
  25. Did you call them stupid or fearfull? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    If so, please provide a profitable business model that they can follow.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    1. Re:Did you call them stupid or fearfull? by Mad+Leper · · Score: 1

      The response you will get here is "Remove all DRM and give you books away for free". Your income will come from the kind souls who take pity on you and send a few coin your way.

      Complain or make any effort to get compensated for your work and you'll be painted as "Anti-Freedom".

  26. Is the library next to go? by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

    I mean seriously, why can't we have a virtual public library on the internet that lets us read books for free, in the way a public library works?
    Why is it fine to lend books at the library, but not ok to download a book and just read it?
    Have libraries cost the publishing world billions of dollars in lost revenue? I don't think so.

    1. Re:Is the library next to go? by Chabo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there are some very naive book publishers would love to see a world with no libraries.

      Then there are other publishers and authors for whom libraries garner them additional sales

      --
      Convert FLACs to a portable format with FlacSquisher
    2. Re:Is the library next to go? by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 1

      To make the counter-argument, I'd argue that you can get more value out of buying a book over checking it out, encouraging people to buy books they feel a strong connection to, need to mark up, or intend to use for long periods of time. However, without some form of DRM, you can't check out an eBook... once you get it you have it forever. Then, there's no reason for anyone to check out an eBook instead of actually buying it, and the only way to make money off of it is to rely on selling the physical copy, and there's no point for having the digital version.

      Note that I'm not arguing that we need DRM. Instead I'd say we should hope to have a hybrid market of both physical and digital books. If you just want a digital book you'll have to buy it, but there will still be physical libraries with physical books that you can borrow for free. Really what digital books do in are crappy consumer paperbacks. Another aspect of that market is that if there is a book you want to own a nice physical copy of, in either trade paperback or hardback form, when you buy it you get a free digital copy as well. At least that's my opinion as a Kindle owner who's checked out more books than I can remember from the library in days past.

  27. The Book Publishers better not fuck with the blind by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    The Book Publishers better not fuck with the blind over screen readers and other text to speech stuff. The GOV and Americans with disabilities people may come down hard on them.

  28. Umm... it worked nicely for Apple by Dekortage · · Score: 1

    It may be a mistake from our perspective, but Apple shareholders don't mind too much that the iPod and iTMS are incredibly successful.

    Many other companies have tried to break into the same markets (hello Microsoft?) with not much success. And they had even better DRM than Apple's! (from a lock-in perspective)

    --
    $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
  29. Greed by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wiktionary defines a monkey trap as "a cage containing a banana with a hole large enough for a monkey's hand to fit in, but not large enough for a monkey's fist (clutching a banana) to come out. Used to 'catch' monkeys that lack the intellect to let go of the banana and run away."

    I think the lure of requiring customers to buy new books rather than borrow or buy them used has placed book publishers in a situation similar to that of the monkey who can't get his hand out of the trap because he's too greedy -- or perhaps just not intelligent enough -- to realize it's in his best interests to let go.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  30. Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First off, make sure to read the Slate article, not the crappy techdirt page that just summarizes and links to it.

    The Slate article makes a lot of oversimplified analogies. One big difference between books and music is that with music, there is only a very tiny difference in utility between a CD and a song bought online and downloaded. Personally, I perceive the CD as having slightly negative utility compared to the download, because it's just one more physical object to clutter up my house. Other people might prefer the convenience of having the CD, since you don't need to make backup copies of CDs. But in general, they're pretty much interchangeable products. With books, however, there are huge differences in utility between paper and download. I can easily make notes in a paper book. I can loan it to a friend to take to the beach. It's never going to become obsolete, whereas a digital book in a specialized e-book format is almost certainly going to become obsolete within 5-10 years.

    Because music has nearly the same utility regardless of whether it's embodied in a physical object, there are lots and lots of people who copy their music from other people without paying for it. There's really no such phenomenon in the case of books. Okay, sure, there are people who scan entire books and post them on scribd or something, but it's a very tiny niche, so this is another case where the analogy between books and music breaks down.

    The article says $10 is cheap for a digital book. This is both an oversimplification and an irrelevance to their argument by analogy. In the case of music, the huge difference is that if I want to buy one track, I can buy it for about $1 by downloading it, whereas on CD I would have had to pay $10, even if I didn't want the rest of the music on it. That's an order of magnitude difference in price. When it comes to books, there's nothing like that. $10 is ridiculously expensive for a used mass-market paperback. $10 is not cheap for a new mass-market paperback. $10 is about the going price for a trade paperback. $10 would be insanely cheap for an illustrated physics textbook.

    If you want to look for a real threat to the book publishing industry that's analogous to the threat file-sharing poses to the music industry, it's not the Kindle, it's the extreme efficiency of the used book market these days. Years ago, one of my favorite things to do on a weekend was bum around used bookstores in a place like Berkeley or New York. It was fun, but it was incredibly inefficient, and the used books weren't particularly cheap. Today, you can get pretty much any used book you want online, at a very reasonable price, and the internet has obsoleted the concept of a bricks and mortar used bookstore. A lot of titles go for something like a buck plus shipping. This is what the book publishers should really be afraid of. They hate the used book market. I see this most vividly at the community college where I teach. The publishers bring out a new edition of the textbook every few years, for the sole purpose of killing off the used book market. The sales reps are now constantly pushing DRM'd books that the students use on a rental basis, meaning that when they stop paying, they can no longer read the book.

    1. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by qdaku · · Score: 1

      One of my favorite things to do is still to pound the pavement at a local used bookstore. I dislike buying books online as some of the best finds I've had were just from browsing and stacks and looking what catches my eye. You can't do that with a giant internet store --it's only good if you know what you are looking for.

      There are several in my area, with the main one being Pulp Fiction books. They have a "incoming" section that rotates all the new stock through and I pop my head in at least once a week. Loads of stuff I would have never read if I was buying online. Add in a helpful staff, all with various likes and dislikes and expertise, and I've gotten to have a good rapport with them. They point me to interesting stuff I may like based off my previous purchases --except the stuff they recommend is far better than the stuff that comes out of amazon's automated system. We trade books, interesting links, jokes, movie thoughts, etc.

      I wouldn't trade it for the world. I happily buy 10-15 books a month from these guys. They've started up really trading a lot of used graphic novels and the collection is looking promising.

      Brick and mortar shops are NOT dead and I hope mine stays around for a long time to come. I once saw William Gibson perusing the stacks in it --try that at an online store.

    2. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You point out another reason implicitly by saying "I can loan it to a friend to take to the beach". There isn't a way to cheaply reproduce and distribute books in the same way that MP3s provided for CDs. Scanning a book takes a significant effort, so it's difficult for a book owner to make their own digital copy of a book. The publisher is the only one who can easily make digital copies.

      So to be blunt: for books, unlike music, there's very little competition from people breaking intellectual property law.

    3. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      The sales reps are now constantly pushing DRM'd books that the students use on a rental basis, meaning that when they stop paying, they can no longer read the book.

      and most people go around that by going to the physical copy available in the offices and xeroxing the pages they need.

      My school's career center tried to push DRM'ed ebooks at me and I told them I didn't trust their software on my machine. I was given access to the physical copies and xeroxed the chapters I wanted.

      I will never, ever, ever pay an institution which uses ebooks exclusively.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    4. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Publishers and booksellers probably see used bookstores (including online) as, at worst, minor nuisances. They attract bargain hunters, collectors, and impoverished students.

      People who buy used books are likely to buy new books, and discuss books and authors with their friends, so the used market is not necessarily bad for the new goods retailers.

      What they are afraid of are 1) people who don't read for pleasure; 2) people getting digital overload from the Internet and CATV, so no time to read books; and 3) people weened on the mp3 philosophy that one shouldn't have to pay for intellectual content, as a matter of principle and/or hipness (admitting to buying a CD or DVD could be considered a faux pas in some circles).

      The last category is probably the one that keeps them awake at nights.

    5. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by swillden · · Score: 1

      With books, however, there are huge differences in utility between paper and download. I can easily make notes in a paper book. I can loan it to a friend to take to the beach

      Indeed there are huge differences. The e-book is much more useful.

      Not only can I make notes in the e-book, they're indexed and searchable, along with the text. I can save them to my computer, which I can back up in case my house ever burns down. I need never lose those notes.

      Not only can I loan it to a friend, assuming no DRM (the only kind I buy), I can loan it to a friend while I'm still reading it.

      Not only can I take it to the beach, by the simple expedient of putting the reader in a ziploc baggie, but I can take a whole library to the beach. I can also read without occupying my hands by setting the reader to use a large font and then laying it on some convenient surface. That means I can read while jogging on a treadmill, eating breakfast, brushing my teeth, etc.

      Given a backlit e-book reader (not the Kindle or Sony), I can also read in the dark.

      It's never going to become obsolete, whereas a digital book in a specialized e-book format is almost certainly going to become obsolete within 5-10 years.

      Why? The format used by my e-book reader is not only thoroughly reverse-engineered, there are open source tools to convert between it and many other obscure formats, like HTML and RTF. I can also convert the books to the MOBI format, which originated on the Palm platform but is now readable on virtually every platform. I like MOBI, though, because my cellphone is a Palm device.

      I don't know anyone who has read a book or two on a real e-book device (not a phone with a tiny screen, or an unwieldy laptop or an immobile desktop computer) who doesn't PREFER it to reading on paper.

      Paper books are going to die because e-books are better, for reasons very similar to why digital music files are better than CDs.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Slate article; poor analogy; used book threat by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Scanning a book takes a significant effort
      Scanning is not so much of an issue IMO. Remember only one person has to go to the trouble of scanning the book (the main annoyance with scanning books is the only quick easy and relativley cheap method is destructive) and putting it on a pirate distribution network and anyone who wants to can get a copy.

      More importantly IMO is that printing a decent quality book from your own digital files takes significant effort. Once you consider the setup of the printer, the folding and the binding making a good pirate copy of a book may well cost you more than buying it.

      However ebook readers are theatening to change this, Afaict downloading a book from TPB or similar and loading it on your amazon kindle or sony ebook reader is pretty trivial.

      If I was a publisher that is what would really scare me.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  31. Same mistakes? by Intron · · Score: 1

    Not true. Book publishers are making new mistakes also.

    Look at Grove. They have been selling product placements in their novels.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  32. Bookstores, not publishers by davecb · · Score: 1

    Publishers? Don't you mean one specific bookstore chain, who's doing the classic "let's leverage our way towards a monopoly" schtick?

    The publishers left in the world already know the value of making books available free electronically and retaining the right to print them. I'm proud to say that O'Reilly started this with the first edition of my "Using Samba". Other, smaller, imprints like Baen are following suit.

    And isn't it this same bookstore that's leaning on their supplier to use one particular print-on-demand service?

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  33. Too late by ucblockhead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Amazon already has a huge share of the book market. In most respects, Amazon is much better placed than Apple was when it launched the iPod. Imagine if Apple had been the largest single retailer of music CDs when it launched the iPod...that's where Amazon is now.

    --
    The cake is a pie
    1. Re:Too late by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 1

      The optimist in me says that will make the killing of the DRM that much faster. Recall that its because Apple got themselves into such a good position that you had the flood of DRM-free music that began with (oddly enough) Amazon*. Assuming Amazon doesn't roll over to every demand of the publishers then they'll eventually grow tired of having to put up with Bezos, and if the Kindle ecosystem has enough market share, the only way to penetrate it will be to go DRM free.

      My concern is actually that Amazon won't have enough of the market to force the same situation, and that competition between the Sony and Amazon formats will strangle the market again. Even worse, Sony could come out on top and who knows what ridiculous convoluted scheme they'd push the market into.

  34. You want to know why? by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    Go read Cyberbooks by Ben Bova. 20 years ago and he got it pretty right.

  35. Exactly by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    I did say it is a common thing. We all do it. Except me of course :P

    I can't even get myself to agree with my ideas.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  36. I know I sound like a broken record.... by rts008 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another excellent write up on the subject by Eric Flint can be found at Jim Baen's free library. (along with some free sci-fi and fantasy books-I can personally recommend anything from there-I've read them all)

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  37. Tim Berners Lee, You're Not Fooling Anyone by Homer's+Donuts · · Score: 1

    You're just trying to get out of printing costs with that HTML thing. It will never work. You'll see.

    You're not fooling us,

    Houghton Mifflin, Harcourt Brace jovanovich; etal

  38. Re:Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat by NoobixCube · · Score: 1

    Oh my god! The Kindle 2 is responsible for the recession! Depriving the publisher's reading-eye-lackeys of jobs, and therefore money, has a MASSIVE follow on effect. They stop spending money on things like food and music (read 'internet access'), then the supermarkets and the record labels tighten the belt, drive up prices, and push more customers out of the market in an ever worsening spiral of dooooooooooooooooooooom!

    --
    Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
  39. simple reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why are book publishers doing the same thing?

    Because they don't know shit about DRM and invite an "expert" breaking it down to them in one of their stupid meetings. Then they make a decision based on the bullshit he tells them. And for whom would such an "expert" work for? That's right, for a company coding DRM solutions.

  40. We already know the model by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    If so, please provide a profitable business model that they can follow.

    Everyone knows the model. Stop wasting money or DRM development, and sell DRM free books.

    You see, the key word there is "sell". They still sell books, and thus still get money.

    Some people will loan out books, sure. But that gets other people interested in the author and then everyone makes more money than if they hide content behind an impenetrable wall with a tiny gate. People will pay if costs are reasonable and material is good.

    See, Baen Books

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  41. Dumb and Pointless? by thepainguy · · Score: 1

    I thought this quote...
     
      "But the dumb and pointless infatuation with 'DRM' and 'protecting' works will basically hand the market over to Amazon for many years, and get many folks locked into to Amazon's Kindle platform, even when more open solutions finally start to become popular."
     
    ...in the referenced article was a bit off the mark.

    As I have said before, one of the things I am is a small publisher. I publish a business book called "Elevator Pitch Essentials" and a couple of DVDs on baseball instruction (rotational hitting and pitching mechanics). As a result, issues like DRM are highly relevant to me.

    I am selling my business book in a pretty much naked PDF "eBook" format, and it's selling pretty well at $9.95, but I've got to tell you that I'm nervous as &*@$ that someone's going to rip it off. I've tried to deal with this a bit by limiting the printing resolution to 150 DPI, but I have heard that some apps don't honor the PDF security settings (WTF?).

    I know that most people make money off of speaking rather than the book, so even if the book gets out into the wild it's not that big of a deal.

    Right?

    Oh, and tell that to my wife.

    I also know that in most cases I'm perfectly willing to pay $1 for a song from iTunes or Amazon. About the only time I go to LimeWire is when a song isn't available in a for-pay catalog.

    I am thinking about porting my business book the to Kindle format, but that's a bit of a PITA because I would have to strip it down to basically .txt format and I don't know if it's worth my time to do that.

    If anyone has any suggestions for how to balance out making things easy for end users to buy and use what I'm selling but also allowing myself to make a reasonable return on my investment, I'm all ears.

    1. Re:Dumb and Pointless? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I think Benjamin Franklin had something to say about this kind of situation...

      "Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead."

      Simply put, if you release something that is a secret, you're making it no longer a secret. I dont care what you wrap it around, be it encrypted pdf, some sort of windows media encryption, online-only viewing, or what have you. Eventually, you will hit somebody who wants your $whatever and will spend any amount of time to do so.

      ---

      Real example: My friends and I go to the university. While there, somebody got suckered in buying an online book for the electronics class.. Turns out, it can only print 10 pages (out of 800+), and has an expiration date of 180 days. He didnt know about this, and wasnt exactly broadcast to him at point of sale. And he paid only 30$ less than a real hardcover. So, they come to me, the weird Fravia loving, Linux hacker who screws around with Windows inside a VM (no more softice since we have VM calls in the cpu).

      Because of how the program installed, he had no "installs left". Ok. So I hooked up a nice widescreen monitor, set it clockwise, displayed the "book" the same length and told it to expand to fullscreen. After that, I used a WSH to simulate key presses so that it incremented through every page. I also used a GPL Windows program that saves a *_0001.jpg and increments upwards. After letting it run for 15 minutes, it shows completion.

      After Un-drm-ing the book, I proceed to upload it to my linux laptop for ImageMagick processing and cleaning. After that, I catenate the jpgs to a nice 1 pdf. And the 3 other people who didnt have the book yet (they were going to buy it), now instead got it for free, in a no-gunk pdf.

      ---

      So yeah, excessively locking down your stuff can actually make your media a bigger target. If instead, you treat your purchasers well, they wont feel so inclined that you screwed them (unlike the school book situation described above). Or better yet, offer content that only purchasers can access (and the pirates cannot easily). Value added does work in many cases.

      And still realize that you cannot stop a cracker from extracting images from static memory when the VM is frozen and your keys are there. Its only an apt-get install virtualbox away.

      --
    2. Re:Dumb and Pointless? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good points.

      My strategy with the pricing is to make it more worth your while to just buy the eBook (at $9.95) than it would be to jump through all the hoops.

      It's also hard for people to argue to others or themselves that you're exploiting them.

      Also, by leaving something naked you remove the challenge aspect from people who will crack something just because you think they can't.

      No challenge, no fun, less piracy.

      Hopefully.

    3. Re:Dumb and Pointless? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Still, Fravia offers hints on how to protect stuff. Of course, he offers help on protecting mainly Windows software, but it can be applied to other arenas.

      1. Some user bought book. You have their information. Ok, on PDF creation, create a unique pdf that ever so slightly puts user information in the pdf on the borders in nice light gray color.

      Can be beat if 2 or more users do diffs and see the common parts. The more users, the more you approach the real pdf.

      2. Value add. Im sure there's more information coming out in the field. Provide updates to the book, and extra sections that the book does not have, or does not adequately expand.

      Some enterprising cracker will re-create the pdf with the added pages.

      3. If the website provides updates, or the pdf is created per user, use a steganographic process that also hides the user name and identifying information. If a good algorithm is chosen, they may not adequately be able to even detect the rat.

      As above. If multiple users share diffs, then it could be beat or detected.

      ----

      You could implement crapware or DRM all you want, but that is only going to antagonize users. Or worse yet, they wont buy at all if they have any sense about DRM. But you'll probably sell the crippled copies to who thinks it's just like a real book... and then learns the hard way it's not.

      If you do some sort of security, do it on the sly, and dont interfere with any normal procedure. Of course, you can highlight at time of sale that their name will be inside the book. Just dont tell them that the whitespace also contains their name.

      Worse comes to worst, if a copy ends up on piratebay, you can take legal action against allowing their copy to get out. Then, you have to weigh if the Streisand Effect is worth what you might recover, because your book will hit the "Top TPB 10" if you sue and make a big stunt out of it. Or suck it up and just give the Sharer a call, and say "No more free publicity, ok?". Or go with the tried and true embarrassment technique like the "DONT ACCEPT CHECKS FROM JOHNNY Q PUBLIC"

      --
    4. Re:Dumb and Pointless? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Standard pdf security is ignored by some viewers and rather easy to remove (there are loads of shareware tools arround to do it and at least one common free software tool that can do it if you know the right options). It's barely going to slow the pirates at all while possiblly (depending on what settings you choose) inconvinicancing your legitimate customers.

      One big problem with DRM is that it all too often ends up in a situation where the legit copy has LESS utitlity than the pirate copy.

      Of course even if you don't publish in ebook form at all there are still gillotines, sheet fed scanners and OCR software ;).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  42. no by emj · · Score: 1

    Well call it obsession with war then, but you are right there are alot of other very HQ stuff from Baen,

  43. Farhad Manjoo - Anti Thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every fucking day now some moron is posting a Manjoo article to Slashdot. He's the Tom Friedman of tech writers -- paid to tell you the blindingly obvious or the obviously wrong in hyperbolic terms ("Best ever", "ultimate", "game changing"). A David Pogue embryo-in-training. Please, just stop posting this crap!

  44. The problem isn't DRM by DECS · · Score: 1

    Entire premise of the article is wrong. The fact that there was no DRM mechanism on audio CDs is what killed the music industry. It allowed everyone to rip music and trade it around without paying for it.

    The labels first tried to get "interoperable" DRM from Microsoft because they thought Apple's FairPlay was not restrictive enough. Sony tried to roll out its own. But in the end, it was only Apple's DRM that enabled the labels to actually sell music in competition with widespread piracy. Once iTunes was established, Apple could argue for the removal of DRM and continue to sell DRM-free music to people who were already accustomed to using iTunes.

    Apple didn't win the online music wars because it had the tightest DRM, it won because it had the least objectionable DRM. Once Apple gained the upper hand, the labels tried to cut their losses selling MP3s with no protection, because at that point, stronger DRM (Microsoft's PlaysForSure and Sony's ATRAC) had failed, attempts to add DRM to CDs (SACD and DVD-A) had failed, and Apple was putting the labels on notice that keeping FairPlay secured was not feasible, in large part because they labels were already selling DRM-free CDs and MP3s.

    So dear Slashdot anti-DRM community: it was Apple's DRM that salvaged any hope of the labels actually collecting any money from their product. It was a lack of DRM on CDs that allowed widespread piracy to destroy music sales. The fact that instituting DRM protection was a forgone option in the music industry by the early 2000's does not mean that DRM does not work to create functional markets.

    "Freeing" new types of content from DRM (whether books, movies, or software) isn't a solution and does not logically follow as some successful alternative to selling protected content, just because the music business imploded *due to the lack of any mechanism for securing its product.* No product can be sold in any sort of quantity to the public if they have the option of stealing it without much trouble.

    DVD movies have suffered much less widespread piracy because, while not invincible by any means, DVD's DRM prevented widespread piracy by the majority of consumers. People still buy DVDs, while very few buy CDs (witness the closing of most music stores). A lock does not have to be completely bullet proof in order to help prevent theft. The relative ease of shoplifting does not mean stores should not try to stop it with theft protection systems.

    Books have long been protected by a form of "physical copy protection" in that its hard enough to photocopy or digitize an entire book and then mass produce copies of it that can compete with paper versions (too expensive to print, and not satisfying enough to read digitally) that it is not practical for consumers to widely pirate written works.

    If eBook readers ever take off, the availability of non-DRM ebook versions of popular content will follow the course of CD/MP3 piracy and the publishing market will self destruct just as the music business has. If Amazon's Kindle takes off and establishes a DRM-secured marketplace for reading, it has the potential for duplicating the successful DVD market, or the very successful, DRM-secured market Apple set up for iPhone mobile software.

    People who think that they can steal content and widely duplicate it over the Internet without impacting the profit motive that created that original content are self delusional. People who think that open markets can exist without DRM as similarly delusional. DRM is not a tool of oppression, it is a facet of the rule of law and regulation on commerce that *CAN* result in fair markets where and only where users pay reasonable amounts and artists/developers get paid fairly for their work.

    The problem is, as with any market, that if the DRM system is operated solely for the benefit of publishers, it will end up too restrictive and demanding of too much profit. That's what killed PlaysForSure and every other system thought up by the music industry itself.

    Apple, as a neutral middl

    1. Re:The problem isn't DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DVD movies have suffered much less widespread piracy because, while not invincible by any means, DVD's DRM prevented widespread piracy by the majority of consumers.

      That's funny. I know many folks who rip and burn DVDs --- ain't nothin' to it.

      Books have long been protected by a form of "physical copy protection" in that its hard enough to photocopy or digitize an entire book and then mass produce copies of it that can compete with paper versions (too expensive to print, and not satisfying enough to read digitally) that it is not practical for consumers to widely pirate written works.

      Once again, you're showing your ignorance. There is a thriving community of folks who scan in books and magazines for re-distribution. Thriving.

    2. Re:The problem isn't DRM by Mad+Leper · · Score: 1

      THANK YOU, finally a sane voice and an insightful post as well...

      Of course, I'm fully expecting to check Slashdot in the morning and see your post modded as Troll, but thanks again for the effort..

  45. Risk and control by DaveGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From a business perspective, an ebook with DRM shares nearly all the main characteristics of a physical book. The risks and your control stays the same, excepting that you lose the risk of over/under printing. Physical books are pretty safe, you can make good judgements of risk, have quote a lot of controls over the risks and balance out what remains: for every fail there's a win. The real work a publisher does is all about managing the fails and wins: slightly more, slightly bigger wins against slighly fewer, slightly smaller fails.

    Without DRM, you lose that control. It's a completely new ball game. Suddenly it's all too plausable that the latest Harry Potter turns up a week early on a torrent and utterly decimates sales of your big title. You just lost the balancing item against the risks you took on all your other products: unless twice as many other books succeed as marketing estimated, the company is dead. Just like that.

    The book industry is in a different set of circumstances to the music industry. They had no choice whatsoever since the market already beat them to mp3 and the industry had to respond. Their epic fail was to take so long - their worst-case scenario was already happening. In the book industry, electronic formats are still optional because the mp3 of books are simply not there. They still have good influence on the market. They are only fighting competitors, not the market itself. Second hand books are merely comparable to second hand CDs i.e. already factored into the present situation.

    Thus for them, DRM ebooks retain the status quo other than to open up a new market and potentially reduce the second-hand market. Result = same + win + win%. DRM-free ebooks offer some benefits to their customers, may further widen the new market but entail a very real risk of arriving at the music industry situation: total loss of control. Result = win + win% + epicfail%.

    But there's one caveat. The book industry has the benefit of hindsight from the music, game and to a lesser extent the movie industry. Many people have ideas about fairness and will still pay for things they can illegally get for free. Related to this is iTunes, steam and to a lesser extent, netflix. The service has to compare with the illegal version.

    If I was a book publisher, to be honest DRM seems like a very obvious choice unless competing firms do otherwise, there's almost nothing to balance up the extreme risk. If I was publishing music, I have no control anyway: DRM is like locking the front door but leaving the back open, plus my primary competitor is piracy and I have to at least match their level of service and quality.

    1. Re:Risk and control by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      Good ripping and releasing groups will spend days putting their releases through QA before they post to newsgroups, their own server bots, and torrent sites.

      If a significant enough portion of publishing goes digital to the point where it becomes inconvenient to get physical copies, there will most definitely be people who are willing to strip ebooks of DRM or, if need be, retype every single word of text as they read it, for release onto a file-sharing network.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  46. And just to prove that the world really is crazy.. by boombaard · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sadly, you thought you were being funny.

    Kindle 2's experimental text-to-speech feature is legal: no copy is made, no derivative work is created, and no performance is being given. Furthermore, we ourselves are a major participant in the professionally narrated audiobooks business through our subsidiaries Audible and Brilliance. We believe text-to-speech will introduce new customers to the convenience of listening to books and thereby grow the professionally narrated audiobooks business.

    Nevertheless, we strongly believe many rightsholders will be more comfortable with the text-to-speech feature if they are in the driver's seat.
    Therefore, we are modifying our systems so that rightsholders can decide on a title by title basis whether they want text-to-speech enabled or disabled for any particular title. We have already begun to work on the technical changes required to give authors and publishers that choice. With this new level of control, publishers and authors will be able to decide for themselves whether it is in their commercial interests to leave text-to-speech enabled. We believe many will decide that it is.

    Customers tell us that with Kindle, they read more, and buy more books. We are passionate about bringing the benefits of modern technology to long-form reading.

    More Whiny Goodness cast in the "uhoh, business threat" mold

  47. Agreed! by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    I'm a technophile, but I also insist technology provide a useful function and not be superfluous or more onerous than the previous iteration.

    Physical books are not something people will easily abandon.

    Publishers have been pushing ebooks since 1997 and going nowhere. This is not like the digital music marketplace where people invented the technology, flocked to it, and dragged the industries kicking and screaming. The industry is what wants to push this format, and for most its very uncomfortable.

    e-books are harder to read, harder on the eyes, harder to preserve, cannot be marked with notes or highlighted, are dependent on electricity and expensive readers which, by themselves, could be liquidated and used to buy shelves of books.

    there's only one convenience to ebooks, and that's the capacity to search text. Of course, once you find it, it's not possible to really quote it because of the horrific DRM every single ebook has.
    The best literary products i've seen are books which have a full digital text and supplementary material on a provided cd.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  48. I was there. by reiisi · · Score: 1

    In West Texas and Japan. There was a distribution channel. Plenty of distribution channel.

    It did not flow.

    There are any number of reasons it did not flow, but access to the channel was not one of them. Lots of people going in and out of those gas stations, lots of people walking through the village markets. The stands were quite visible.

    Maybe a bad analogy would help.

    My wife likes to tell about a visit she made south of the Mexico/California border. Street vendors, many of them very young children. They sold commercial products, mostly candy bars and the like, and they sold things they made.

    Care to guess which she bought? Care to guess which the people who were with her bought?

    Sure, the candy bar that looked like it had been unwrapped several times didn't look very appetizing. That's part of the point -- an unclean feeling to the transaction.

    People who have the money to spare _want_ to support the authors/artists/performers whose works they appreciate. That is a fact in any society that is even marginally healthy.

    I wonder, here, if part of the reason the media giants can't see the principle here is not the very fact of the number of artists, authors, and performers they have screwed over. They probably don't respond any more the way people with healthy consciences respond, so they can't understand why ordinary people would respond that way.

    Who was it said that the more money you have the less you tend to understand the meaning of money?

    Yeah, honesty is what it's all about.

    If society is so bad that you cannot depend on enough people doing the right thing, well, if society goes that far south, DRM isn't going to help, either.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  49. Re:And just to prove that the world really is craz by Golddess · · Score: 1

    Your link does nothing to prove your quote as valid. Please provide another source, preferably from Amazon, which actually states that Kindle 2's TTS is going to be modified so that TTS is enabled only on a book-by-book basis.

    --
    "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
  50. information theft by reiisi · · Score: 1

    Hmm.

    When you point your duplicating device at my car, my briefcase is on the passenger seat. So, now you have my customer list, or my flowcharts, or my business plan, or the manuscript for my novel.

    In fact, I'm in the driver seat, and my wallet is in my pocket, so now you have my driver's license and credit cards. Well, that is, if you can get the clone of me to give them to you, I guess.

    And, then, there's all those duplicates of me running about.

    I wonder what my wife would say to having all those duplicates of me wandering around loose?

    (heh)

    I think we need a new understanding of just what the word property means.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  51. They made some mistakes by mysidia · · Score: 1

    But not the most important ones...

    They haven't gone on a shooting spree, seeking to sue every user of peer to peer networks who shares a copy of a book.

    As far as I know, they haven't sought to sue libraries or used bookstores, at least not in reason years.

    Sure, they made some of the same mistakes as record labels, but there are other mistakes they had already made a long time ago, that they hopefully learned from.

    DRM may be a mistake, but it's the smaller of the mistakes made by the likes of the RIAA.

  52. PDFs? Ugh! by meehawl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I prefer about 5 million-fold when I can get an ebook that is simply raw text, or text with light markup. That way I can refont, reformat, resize, or reflow it to suit a particular screen, or a particular reading posture.

    PDFs fail at all of this.

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:PDFs? Ugh! by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Man! I wish I had modpoints! You should be +5 insightful!

  53. OCR and E-ink by damaki · · Score: 1

    I am so much waiting for the day when DRM will be so annoying that people will use OCR on their Kindles or whatever devices to circumvent those shitty DRMs.

    --
    Stupidity is the root of all evil.
  54. Copyright infringement is not yet theft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Come on - always the same 'it is copyright infringement' bla bla bla

    No, Sir. The distinction is (politically) so important that we shouldn't be sloppy about it.

    It's about this mad race to fence-off so-called intellectual property and treat is as physical property.

    It's not only about the Sony BMGs, but about the far more dangerous Monsantos.

    It's about a Brave New World where artistic expression and scientific discovery aren't anymore for the benefit and enjoyment of Humanity, but to satisfy the greed of amok-running megacorps.

    If you don't want this world, you should make this distinction.

    If, on the other hand, you are a RIAA troll -- well, i haven't polite words for you.

  55. One last advantage by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    And the best part is that if you forget your reader at the beach, you don't have to bother going back to get it because it will be gone!

    1. Re:One last advantage by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      And the best part is that if you forget your reader at the beach, you don't have to bother going back to get it because it will be gone!

      ...but the books haven't, because they're backed up on my server!

  56. Re:And just to prove that the world really is craz by boombaard · · Score: 1
  57. So when are we going to see the iBook by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    with $0.99 books on iTunes?
    Or is Apple going to integrate an e-book reader into the next iPod?
    In the end it all boils down to display resolution and power consumption. The rest is trivial.

  58. An author's perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As the author of several technical books (published by a mainstream publisher), let me share my perspective. Each one of my books took the better part of a year of hard work and research to produce. And today, each one is the top-selling book on their respective subject. My books are available in traditional printed form and also as eBooks.

    Why did I write these books? To earn some extra money to support myself and my family. I'm just trying to make a living. I know that self-sufficiency and independence is somehow considered evil now that we're in the age of the Obama dead-beat handouts. But I still believe that you should work hard to support yourself and not have to rely on someone else to support you. I didn't write these books just for the fun of it, nor did I intend to give away my hard work for free. They are the result of my work and are my intellectual property. If someone wants to read the information that is contained in my books, they should pay for the privilege.

    The problem is that like most books, eBook copies can be found at your favorite "free ebook" pirate site. Each and every download of one of these "free" copies is depriving me of my rightful income. And there's not much that I can do about, other than to hunt down the bastards that host pirated copies of my books and demand that they be removed. I do this using official DMCA takedown notices, which usually results in the pirated copies being removed within a day or two. But the situation is out of control and there are just too many pirate sites to hunt down. Because of this, I've decided to take a radical step for my next book. I am prohibiting the sale of my next book in electronic form. It will be a print-only book. Yes, this will deprive me of the income that I would have received from the legit sale of eBooks. But I'm willing to give up that small amount of income if it will prevent pirated downloads of the book. Now the scum that pirate my books have effectively ruined things for everyone. No one will be able to read my next book in electronic form because of the risk of piracy.

    So, if you argue that everything should be open and free, why would anyone write a book? Or more to the point, why would someone write a book with the specific content that you just happen to need? Sure, there will always be some books that are written and given away for free. If you are an author that can afford to do that, more power to you. I can't. What is the incentive for an author to spend a year of their live working on a book just so they could give it away or have it stolen? Authors will not write all of the books that you need unless there is an incentive to do so. Think about that the next time you download a book from a pirate site.