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Smart Immigrants Going Home
olddotter writes "A 24-page paper on a reverse brain drain from the US back to home countries (PDF) is getting news coverage. Quoting: 'Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain," finds that the vast majority of these returnees were relatively young. The average age was 30 for Indian returnees, and 33 for Chinese. They were highly educated, with degrees in management, technology, or science. Fifty-one percent of the Chinese held master's degrees and 41% had PhDs. Sixty-six percent of the Indians held a master's and 12.1% had PhDs. They were at very top of the educational distribution for these highly educated immigrant groups — precisely the kind of people who make the greatest contribution to the US economy and to business and job growth." Adding to the brain drain is a problem with slow US visa processing, since last November or so, that has been driving desirable students and scientists out of the country.
The American dream used to be a house in the country. Now it's a house in another country.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
There's also the fact that many of them get scholarships/fellowships/teaching assistantships from US universities. Essentially, American taxpayer money has gone into funding their education, and because of idiotic political reasons they are going back. Of course the layman just sees them as taking up a job, and won't see the fact that
a) They could create more jobs
b) A US-educated immigrant going back is a net loss (in terms of taxpayer money) for the country.
I just have to wonder how much more of this erosion of the U.S. the U.S. is willing to accept and permit? H1-Bs and lowering of wages, offshoring and outsourcing services are all great ways for companies to increase their bottom lines. But when EVERYONE is doing it, these companies ultimately create poor and unemployed customers! This is not sustainable.
People constantly ask "so protectionism is the answer?" Right now, yes it is!
It seems that everyone and every entity is seeming short, fast turn-around and ever-increasing bottom lines using "growth percentage" as a metric for success and viability. (Reality check! In no part of the universe is growth a sustainable metric!!)
This is the end ....
my feeling, in 30 years this moment will be viewed as the tipping point, the moment in which america stopped being the siphon of the worlds best minds.
For the first time in history the melting pot hasn't managed to retain the best.
Those people will bring a BIG BOOST in their respoective countries ruling intellighentia.
lots of sour grapes here, but have no one else to blame ....
There's nothing special about the foreigners. We can make more.
You can't make more Foreigner, AND THEY ARE TOTALLY SPECIAL!
You're as cold as ice if you don't think so! Man, these head games you are playing really make me hot blooded...
Fortunately, they are still alive, well, touring, and rocking, so we don't need to make more.
I'm tired of the smell of curry.
Then you, sir, are tired of life.
I guess they ran out of secret documents and technology to steal
Yep, they've just found out that they can themselves engineer better stuff than they can steal from the U.S. today.
Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain"...
Shouldn't that be "America's Loss Is the Rest of the World's Gain"? I know you insist on calling us aliens and think we use strange units like metres and kilograms but we are all part of the same world.
simply tells smart immigrants to wait for a real change before coming back or planning to stay.
I work with 1 H1B and a few naturalized immigrants who all are very well educated (masters for two of them) and their drive is well beyond what the average "American" I see today. They still want it all. The difference is that they are willing to sacrifice and work for it.
When schools allow dummies to pass because it isn't fair to hold them back, when schools don't celebrate their brightest because it offends, when doing grunt work on your path through the job market is for losers, what can you expect? Fortunately there are still more of us than them. The problem is that very little is being done to encourage more of those yearning for success who will work for it instead we are now seeing more who expect everything to be done or handed to them.
Reverse brain drain? It will get worse as some of OUR brightest go overseas to excel.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I think a lot of Americans don't realize why America became the superpower it is.
For thousands and thousands of years, the way to increase your nation's power was to go and invade the other nation, subjugate them, and take their stuff.
The problem is that's a pretty expensive way of going about things. The answer?
Immigration!
Why fight through the world subjugating people when you can just open up the gates of immigration and the best, brightest and hardest working of the other nation's populace will voluntarily and at their own expense subjugate themselves?
Much cheaper and more effective than invasion!
paintball
A colleague of mine decided to return to Africa. The money he collected over seven years in the USA would enable him live a better life in his homeland.
A mansion, with a swimming pool and three maids only costs him about 900 dollars to maintain. The respect he would get from the community would be greater and he'll have a chance to eat fresh "organic" fruit.
All in all...good for them...I wish them all the best.
When the economy picks up, I will welcome them to the mighty USA.
I like my protectionism like I like my women: passive aggressive!
'a';DROP TABLE users; SELECT * FROM DATA WHERE name LIKE '%'... if you're reading this, it didn't work.
Precisely. I can compete with Indians that live around the corner. They have to pay the same taxes (mostly), and they have comparable expenses. If technology continues to shift from the United States to India, however, American technology workers are screwed.
As long as all of the truly bright people in the world come to the U.S. to work then the U.S. will continue to have a long-lasting advantage over the rest of the world. When that stops happening, then the U.S. economy is really headed for trouble.
Well, there are two major factors.
1) Given the current recession, the number of jobs have fallen off. That and there is pressure to hire an American over someone on a visa. Plus, maybe the foreigners don't want to pay our debt due to all of the bailouts and "Economic stimulus".
2) Xenophobia is alive and well. Even if there were no 9/11, there was a fear of foreigners in the US. Be it left over hostiles from the Cold War, hatred towards Mexicans and South Americans for taking "good jobs" from Americans, Native Americans wanting their land back, or African-Americans wanting a piece of the American Dream and compensation from slavery, there are build up resentments which have been under the surface.
Whenever you evaluate a strategic game or a problem, you can see it by seeing it from the opponents point of view.
I agree, and I'll add this assumes the foreign graduates can get the visa and work permits needed to stay in the US. The harder we make it for them to stay, the more go back to their homes.
For anyone who complains about competition from foreign workers for US jobs, consider if they go home, they will be assisting or starting competing companies there. Then it's just *your personal* job that has competition, its the *entire company*, and if the foreign company wins out, *all* the jobs get laid off.
It is by far in our best interest to try to keep all the best and brightest here in our country... we should only be so lucky to have such a draw...
Are you saying my immigrant coworkers who aren't planning on leaving are stupid? That seems both rash and mean. You take it back!
The enemies of Democracy are
then things might be different.
As it is, the H1B program has merely managed to feed the "fat cats" without improving the lot of US citizens.
By all means, encourage immigration of hard-working, talented, intelligent people.
But allow them to control their own destinies and compete without handicapping them or US citizens by institutionalizing a system that unfairly depresses wages for all.
Maybe we've just reached a sort of equilibrium here, where US wages have stagnated while the rest of world's has grown.
Except that you ignore the fact that the H1-B's arent' competing with you on the open market. The h1-b must work there, or leave the country within 10 days if they can't find a new position.
So the H1-B's are working here with a neck in the guillotine - work hard, accept the conditions, and take the pay they are given or go home. They don't have a choice of finding another job they may be highly qualified for without having to get a sponsor.
So employers fill these slots with employees who will work longer and work cheaper in order to stay in the US. Does that really sound like you have a fair shot of getting that job just because you're more qualified.
You know, one thing that no one ever bothered to mention is that they might be leaving BECAUSE they can't find good jobs here. A lot of the kids at the university I went to had to go back to their own countries after graduation, not because they wanted to, they love America. They can't find an employer willing to put up with all the BS that uncle sam requires so they can become citizens.
Barriers to entry never help anybody. Uncle Sam, tear down this wall.
This game will waste your life. Don't clicky!
No, for the billionth time, we don't mind competing on quality. No, for the billionth time, we're not racist. No, for the billionth time, we don't mind the competition. On the contrary, my heart goes out to the H1-Bs I work with because I know they don't have any good choices.
In the most brutal stark terms, H1-Bs are hired specifically because they don't enjoy the same political and legal protection that native workers do. They get paid less, worked like indentured servants, and disposed of like kleenex. I've actually heard one manager scream at the H1-B team he employed "If you're awake, you're working for me!"
This is why you don't see the IT market flooded with French, Canadian or Australian workers, but rather see the market flooded with people from countries struggling with poverty and political horrors.
These poor people are exploited here precisely because the conditions in their home country are so horrific. My heart goes out to the women H1-Bs I've worked with, because I've seen the haunted look in their eye when they speak of home. I once cornered another H1-B over a hideously unethical stunt he pulled to shift the blame away from his own screwup to another, more junior engineer. He robbed my righteous thunder when he got a desperate look in his eyes and pleaded with me, "Look, if he gets fired he can just get another job. If I get fired, they'd make me go back..."
For the billionth time, if we need this talent, then let's do the right thing by these people and offer them citizenship. If we're not prepared to do the right thing, then we shouldn't be using them as scabs to break the back of American labor.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Honestly we, Canada, are quite content with the fact that you preach such crazy patriotism to your kids at a young age and we don't have any worries.
We're taught more to come up with our own views and opinions of the world and the country itself (through school and society). And from looking around, myself, I feel that I live in a country that is much less off-the-wall (so to speak) than the rest of the world. I was not told through school and/or society that I need to worship Canada like it's a second/first religion, however I would put my life up for this country in a heart-beat if it were ever threatened.
You can't force anyone to love a country, but you can let them.
I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
They were highly educated, with degrees in management...
So that's our plan for destroying the world!
Have you ever actually worked with creating software? Lower cost developers equals far worse code equals shitter software equals products that end up not being able to compete. That means you have to shut down.
Want an example? Look at some of the projects Motorola closed recently. Wanna know why it was closed down? They added a lot of "cheap" workers that produced code that honestly was offensive to anyone with a proper education / proper knowledge of software.
Lowering costs often means something gotta give, only when you can produce with the same quality but at a lower price can you continue to compete.
All this says is that the H1-B visa program is working as advertised.
And it shows just how stupidly designed the H1-B visa program was in the first place. These people are precisely the types we want as citizens. It should never have been temporary in the first place. It should have been designed to be a fast track to a green card. Instead it was designed as a way to put artificial leverage on these people to keep them under the thumbs of their corporate employers - in direct contradiction of traditional american values like being the "land of the free."
And so what's the answer? We have several possible ways to fix this, which do you prefer?
-Reduce the American standard of living via increased immigration to correct the high cost of labor?
-Increase the global standard of living via offshoring to correct their low cost of labor?
-Cause stagnation via protectionist policies, then wait for other nations to pass us by on their way to a higher standard of livin and eocnomic vitality?
In all seriousness, if we open the gates to immigration, we'll reduce the cost of American labor and thus be more competitive from a labor standpoint... and if we do it via naturalization instead of stupid H1-B and other temporary visas, we'll get to *keep* the best and brightest here. If we continue to offshore jobs that we cannot compete with on labor costs, we'll raise the standard of living overseas and help level the playing field.
The truth of the matter is that the US standard of living is unsustainable, we've only kept it high so long by leveraging limited natural resources (like fossil fuels) and borrowing.
An adjustment will happen, and the US standard of living will become more like the rest of the world's... but the question is if we can help ensure that this is by elevating the SoL outside the US, or if it will be simply a reduction in the SoL in the US. I know which I'd prefer (both for selfish and humanitarian reasons).
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I conclude that you pulled that figure out of your ass.
Most people start college at 17 or 18. Eighteen plus four equals twenty-two, at least it does in my corner of the universe. I know I graduated college at twenty-two. Twenty-two or twenty-three plus seven years lands you in the neighborhood of thirty, again, for most values of thirty.
Does the math work differently when it comes out of your ass? Perhaps you don't realize it's not customary to take seven years to finish an undergrad degree?
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
I really wonder how many of you still know what the word "Free" means or how to apply it.
Why bother
... give them their PhD and their citizenship at the same time? If someone came here from another country long enough to earn their PhD, they've already worked here for somewhere around 5-7 years. Why do we make it more difficult for them to stay longer?
Add to that the fact that most grant funding agencies only give grants to citizens, and it isn't hard to figure out why so many people who come here for their PhD from other countries end up leaving afterwards - they finished their PhD and then ran straight into a career roadblock of no fault their own.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Get back on my lawn!
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Insightful comment (haven't got any mod points unfortunately though).
I feel the same way about my home country (Australia). Australians deep down are quite patriotic, but it is a quiet, learned patriotism, rather than the overt 'God bless America' flag-waving culture you see in the US. If you asked us, we wouldn't say we were patriotic. But most would, as you say, defend it to the death if there was a real threat. Life is just too good here to give up easily, it truly is one of the world's best places to live (Canada is nice too BTW from what I've seen) :)
I'm qualified to talk about this distinction I think, because my wife is in fact an American who has just recently permanently moved here to Australia with me. (Incidentally she's well educated, a good example of the brain drain out of the US). I've also spent a lot of time in the US myself, both for business and pleasure.
I think the US a wonderful country with some of the friendliest people you will find anywhere. But the first time I visited I could not BELIEVE the awful, tacky, in-your-face patriotism. Flags from every freaking house (here, flags are pretty much just for government buildings etc). HUGE flags on the side of highways and stuff for no apparent reason (why? seriously, why?). In a way, the US displays its national symbol so much and so often that it loses it's importance and meaning I think. Here, we treat our flag with a great deal of respect and use it only for official occasions. And I think it is more symbolic and meaningful because of that.
So I think your last comment "You can't force anyone to love a country, but you can let them", is a perfect summation. In most countries, people come to love their country gradually and deeply, because they genuinely think it's a wonderful place. In the US though it does seem as if patriotism is more ... indoctrinated into people.
Alaren, you are absolutely correct. I'm a former academic who still has many connections and the biggest group that seems to be leaving are recently minted MBAs and B-school grads. Those are fields that just aren't doing well in an economic downturn.
My wife of 21 years was a PhD student in Math and an immigrant from Eastern Europe when we met. Her experience opened my eyes to a population and situation that I barely knew existed. So many Americans believe that immigrants "just take a test" and they're instant citizens. Many more believe all the racial and ethnic stereotypes about intelligence and science and math skills (or lack thereof). Too many believe they take more than they give.
I can barely imagine what it's like for a young person with talent who comes to America to try to better herself. I've walked with such a person for a couple of decades now. My grandparents were also such people, coming from war-torn (WWI) Italy to be shepherds and steelworkers and shirt-makers and railroad workers. Their sons fought in WWII. All their sons and daughters became proud and successful Americans and thanks to the Labor Unions that are now under attack from American "conservatives", became productive members of the US middle class.
I was one of those "liberal arts students who scored higher on verbal and lower on math" that Alaren mentioned. My wife is a mathematician in a field I can hardly understand, and my daughter, now an undergrad who gets her looks from her Mom (thank god) is pretty well-rounded. She wants to be either a mathematician or a novelist. It would not suprise me if she became both.
I get a sick feeling when I hear Americans talk down immigrants, legal and otherwise. They are as important to the formation and future of our country as the Founding Fathers.
We have to remember, the Pilgrims (you know, the guys with the funny hats and buckled shoes from Thanksgiving) were immigrants, every one.
You are welcome on my lawn.
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It probably has something to do with the fact that after 9/11 the USA has become increasingly police state-like.
Before 9/11 happened I was looking forward to go back to the US and see NYC (I liked Massachusetts). Then the planes hit and the towers fell, and after the initial scare passed your country went irrationally paranoid about security.
I decided not to set foot on the US again until your government came back to its senses. You know, I don't like to be treated as a criminal by default when visiting a foreign country. I assume this is part of the reason why those people are leaving.
It seems that now things might start to change (hopefully for good).
My site
Or instead of hypocrisy, it is sheer xenophobia and mis-information at work. Clueless much? Apparently Indian companies do hire non-Indians. http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1832596.cms Obviously, these folks did apply for a work permit and got one. Thing is, that most US citizens are generally only all talk about actually going to India to work. Just empty talk. It is a third world country. Period. Even if you were earning well by Indian standards(which most foreigners working in India do) you will still be dealing with mosquitoes, scorching Indian heat in summers, dirt, grime, infections, what not. India is all fun to visit as a tourist, but living there when you are a US citizen? Forget it. Think of queues 4-5 hours long, for almost everything. Indians are used to this "way of life". You as a pampered, spoiled US citizen are not. You will start cribbing about the dirt from day one. Your body has never encountered the diseases and bacterias flourishing there. Indians have developed a natural immunity. You will either have really watch what you drink and eat, or fall sick constantly. And the country is mostly conservative. Your chances of a relationship with a membership of the opposite sex are remote, unless she is interested in hooking onto your US citizenship as a wife. And all this, when your pay is in the upper brackett, allowing you to afford an air-conditioner at home at least, a car, good medical care, to compensate for some of the things you took for granted in USA. Such high-paying jobs are scarce. Being used to the US life, you are just not really in a position to survive on an actual average Indian salary. So far, it has been unthinkable that any average american would want to work in India for long-term, unless he was being ordered to, by his employer, or unless he was unaware what he was getting into, or unless he was a glutton for punishment, or all of above. If you are still game, get an Indian company to hire you first. If you are a good bargain for the value they will get, then business is business. There is no real bias against foreigners, especially if they deal with software export or US clients, in which case you might be even desirable for interfacing with their US clients. They will sponsor your Indian work permit. The procedure involved lots of red-tape but not impossible either. I personally know tons of Japanese folks working in India for example, for Indian companies that deal with Japanese companies. But please tone down the misinformation and xenophobia. It is becoming too much an american stereotype.
With my condolences to the Monty Python:
Damn right. Besides weekends, what has organized labor done for us?
OK, OK...
Besides weekends AND vacations, what has organized labor done for us?
Hum, what... OK
Besides weekends, vacations AND paid leave, what has organized labor done for us?
Really? No kidding... OK
Besides weekend, vacation, paid leave AND fair salaries, what has organized labor done for us?
For real?
Besides weekends, vacation, paid leave, fair salaries AND safe working conditions, what has organized labor done for us?
What? Really... OK OK
Besides weekends, vacations, paid leave, fair salaries, safe working conditions AND retirements, what has organized labor done for us?
Huh? come on... OK OK
Besides weekends, vacations, paid leave, fair salaries, safe working conditions, retirement, AND medical coverage, what has organized labor done for us?
Yeah... what a bunch of dicks!
Because the swiss have some sort of problem with a foreigner just waltzing into their country and taking a job when they've already got swiss that can do it.
As a scientist with a PhD and in your early 30s (i.e. with about 10 years' experience) you would:
1. Fly to Switzerland and stay up to 90 days without a visa if you're American/Canadian
2. Find employment in your field.
3. Have the employer obtain a specialist visa.
4. Work ten months.
5. Get an unlimited "C" work permit/visa.
With a "C" visa you're no longer tied to that particular employer but can move freely on the labor market.
Much easier than if you're an Indian PhD who wants to work in the U.S. - or a Swiss one for that matter. H1Bs are far more restrictive, and there is nothing like the Swiss "C" visa for when you're somewhere between H1B and permanent residency (at 48months IIRC). You also won't have to jump through silly administrative hoops, like go back to your home country to apply for the visa. And the Swiss will be nice, polite, and actually helpful at the border and immigration offices. As opposed to the snarling, incompetent, rude, bottom-of-the-barrel idiots you encounter here. If there's something wrong with your application or paperwork they will helpfully suggest how to correct it. Again, very different from U.S. government standards.