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UK To Mull High Video Game Taxes — To Fight Knife Crime

chareverie writes "The Prime Minister of the UK is being urged to impose high taxes on violent video games in an effort to reduce the number of knife-related crime. The request comes from Richard Taylor, who argues that young people 'feel that the law has no control over them. They just feel that they can go on the streets and do whatever they like.' He doesn't have a definitive number on how much to tax on the offensive video games, but says that they should be 'very high.' Rap music is also voiced to be a concern due to the alleged negativity and language. Taylor's son, Damilola Taylor, was killed in November 2000 at the age of 10 by knife stabbing."

48 of 615 comments (clear)

  1. Correlation... by Kagura · · Score: 4, Funny

    Correlation is causation! Mwahaha.

    1. Re:Correlation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Exactly. I knew a kid from bible camp 12 years ago who now is in federal prison for killing and wearing the skin of 16 flemish prostitutes. I always knew Jesus killed, but now that I know video games also kill, what will save us all? We must seek Mel Gibson for council.

    2. Re:Correlation... by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's quite amazing this guy figured out the underlying cause of an amazingly complex set of interrelated processes in society. They should get this guy working on the economy so he can tell us the one thing we need to do to get out of the recession.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    3. Re:Correlation... by Kagura · · Score: 4, Funny

      At least we know that the key to solving Global Warming lies off the coast of Somalia. ;)

    4. Re:Correlation... by mr_mischief · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Obligatory xkcd for you, and it's even a recent one: correlation.

      Unfortunately, most idiots who spout drivel like this don't even have a strong correlation in the first place. Sales of violent video games may be up, and knife crimes might be up, but is it even the kids playing the games committing the crimes?

      Giving adolescents more productive things to do is the best way to fight teen crime. If they're busy earning money, cleaning the parks as volunteers, acting in community theatre, playing music, dancing, painting, or playing organized sports they're less likely (and have less free time) to go out and commit crimes.

    5. Re:Correlation... by vishbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If it's anything like the US, then the kids buying video games are probably not the ones going around stabbing folks. Violent crime tends to correlate with a lower income bracket...whereas a kid who buys lots of violent video games for his next-gen console and HDTV probably comes from a higher-income family.

      --
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    6. Re:Correlation... by julesh · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unfortunately, most idiots who spout drivel like this don't even have a strong correlation in the first place. Sales of violent video games may be up, and knife crimes might be up, but is it even the kids playing the games committing the crimes?

      It's worse than that. Knife crime is down. The number of people injured by knives and other sharp instruments is down (although not by as much as was previously reported). Incidence of violent crime in general is down.

      This hysteria and panic is caused by, well, nothing. Except the fact that for some unknown reason over the last 5 years the media has become much more likely to report each and every incident of violence with a knife that they get to hear about.

      So, if there is any correlation, it's a negative one: more video games, less knife crime.

    7. Re:Correlation... by Fallen+Seraph · · Score: 5, Informative

      In 2005, there was a major layoff of teachers from the public school system of Minneapolis. That same year, there was a dramatic surge in the number of hurricanes to hit the Gulf Coast.

      As such, either
      1) Laying off teachers causes hurricanes
      2) Hurricanes cause teachers to be laid off
      3) Teacher get laid off in Minneapolis for the same reason hurricanes form, namely, warm water and air currents off the east coast of Africa moving toward the colder central Atlantic ocean

      Correlation implies absolutely nothing without substantially stronger evidence to tie the threads together, and no, anecdotal evidence doesn't count.

    8. Re:Correlation... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, people (you, for example) like to pretend that it's a simple problem because they're terrified by the knowledge that the world is complicated. They tell themselves the comforting lie that if they pick a scapegoat and attack it, everything will magically get better.

      Ahh, the "It's too complex for you to know that, how dare you hold me responsible" argument. I've never heard "THAT" one before...

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    9. Re:Correlation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's fine though. It cauterizes the wound, so you don't bleed out. It's the way to stab someone while still saying "I care".

    10. Re:Correlation... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right off the bat, there's some serious overgeneralizing in that statement. However, if it is the case, then the solution is simple in concept but difficult in execution. Show young people that the system can work for them. That involves thousands of hours of education in basic finance, civics, and law. Show young people that the system can work against them. That involves an effective police force and appropriate punishments.

      Question for you:

      If the majority of the population are retired, and they vote for the young minority to work double shifts to support them, and the police enforce the will of the majority vote, is that freedom, or is it slavery?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    11. Re:Correlation... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously, thought, we're suffering from massive unemployment, not lack of manpower.

      You mean, the people who own all the resources that you could very easily go and do productive work with are comfortable and have no desire to allow you permission to work them. But you can go stand in front of their box of stuff and say "Cash or Credit, I'm sorry sir, you'll have to pay for that" all day, and they'll feed, water and house you like the animal you are...

      It's not unemployment, its disenfranchisement. While the disenfranchisement continues, the employment or lack of it are rather irrelevant.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
  2. Please correct my logic by pembo13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People spending more time playing video games have less time to stab people.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Please correct my logic by vishbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wonder if this will have an opposite effect than intended. Now instead of being able to vent their frustration on the Helghast, that knife on the kitchen table looks mightily attractive...

      Plus, if you've gotten to the point that you want to stab someone, you have a mental problem...sucks that the UK government is punishing the citizenry for the acts of a few disturbed individuals.

      --
      Ride the skies
    2. Re:Please correct my logic by RabidMoose · · Score: 4, Funny

      They also develop better hand-eye coordination, a foundation of stabbing abilities.

      ^^sarcasm

    3. Re:Please correct my logic by kick6 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Please correct my logic

      This is the part where you fail. You erroneously assume that logic comes into play in the English government.

    4. Re:Please correct my logic by aceofspades1217 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Lol, ahhh I can't stab old laddies in GTA...time to start stabbing them in real life.

    5. Re:Please correct my logic by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You erroneously assume that logic comes into play with government.

      Fixed that for you ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:Please correct my logic by Bralkein · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh, get lost. Most people in Britain don't want guns to be legal. There's not even any pro-gun lobby to speak of here. The government here does plenty of stupid things but in this case the government legislation is well-aligned with the will of the people.

      I'm not saying that guns should be illegal in the US or anywhere else, it depends what the people of that country want. But here guns are illegal and almost everyone is happy with that.

    7. Re:Please correct my logic by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dangit, when will people realize that it's the parent's responsibility to teach their children how to stab, not video games.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
    8. Re:Please correct my logic by Bralkein · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Outlawing hate speech would probably make "almost everyone" happy as well but that isn't a good justification to start infringing on civil liberties, IMHO.

      Not at all. Outlawing hate speech (or any speech, for that matter) is a very controversial idea here, and there are significant efforts by civil rights lobbyists to prevent such things. That doesn't mean the government won't try to do it, like I said, I don't agree with them a lot of the time. But with guns the situation is much simpler.

      In any case you reap what you sow -- your citizens are virtually defenseless against criminals wielding "weapons" that you'll never be able to take away unless you ban the consumption of meat. Congratulations.

      I don't understand how introducing guns into the equation is magically going to make this situation better. If guns are more widely available then surely the criminals will have them, too? I don't really fancy my chances in a shoot-out! Even most police officers here don't carry a gun.

      Don't get me wrong, British society has plenty of problems, not least with its government what with all of the CCTV and the war in the Middle East and the economic issues etc. but the gun policy we have here works for us and I don't really think you should be so disdainful about it. As I said before the US (which I assume you're from, if not then sorry and insert your country as appropriate) is its own place and is entitled to its own policy on the matter. I wouldn't want to pass judgement on the internal affairs of a country of which I have no great understanding.

    9. Re:Please correct my logic by Haeleth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      your citizens are virtually defenseless against criminals wielding "weapons" that you'll never be able to take away unless you ban the consumption of meat. Congratulations.

      We're also virtually defenceless against ICBM strikes, raptors, and armies of mutant zombie pirates. Oh noes! How will we ever defend ourselves!

      Fact is, all the sensational stabbings the press have reported in the last year or so have had one thing in common: easy availability of guns would not have prevented them. It would just have meant that we'd have had a bunch of sensational shootings instead. I'm sure that would have been a real improvement.

    10. Re:Please correct my logic by bongomanaic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Firearms have no particular cultural or constitutional significance in Great Britain. US law may be based on English common law, but the reverse isn't true. The right to bear arms in English Law has always been restricted to those weapons that were suitable for the purpose of self-defence. In a society where the probability of encountering a gun-wielding assailant is very small there are few individuals for whom a handgun is a suitable defensive weapon. Gun ownership has never been widespread in Britain and most people would prefer to keep it that way, regardless of constitutional controversies in foreign lands.

    11. Re:Please correct my logic by mdwh2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed - the problem is that in this country, having a murdered son or daughter apparently gives you the right to pass a law banning whatever you like in your dead child's name. You'll get national media coverage for your campaign, and if the Government agrees, they'll use you as an emotional figurehead, promoting you as the emotive reason why Something Must Be Done.

      I saw it with Liz Longhurst and her crusade to criminalise possession of porn she doesn't like, which has now passed. Even now, she continues to pop up in the media again and again giving her uninformed one-sided views, whilst individuals, organisations and academics who opposed the law have had to fight to get even a slim amount of coverage. Anyone who dares criticise her is accused of being disrespectful, whilst it's okay for her to tell those who risk being criminalised "hard luck".

      Grieving parents shouldn't be given additional media attention for political campaigning, over anyone else, and they are the last people we should be consulting for an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint on lawmaking.

  3. Well, next... by halivar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now that they've done away with all gun and knife crimes, they need to fight shillelagh crimes. Shillelagh crimes have been steadily on the rise, doubling from one to two in just ten years. Even worse, some oafs are starting to hammer nails into their shillelaghs, just so they have metal pokey-bits to inflict more damage.

    We need to tax all carpenters and lumberyards in the UK, or our youth will pay a terrible price in violence and fear.

    1. Re:Well, next... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 5, Funny

      Whew! For a minute, I thought you wanted to tax me Lucky Charms.

  4. HUH? by trdrstv · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If raising taxes is a method of fighting crime (it's not, but supposing it is) then why not raise taxes on the sale of knives ?

    1. Re:HUH? by Khashishi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a cook, I'd have to say that's a bad idea.

    2. Re:HUH? by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Because the vaunted chefs of England would rise in revolt, brandishing their filet knives!

      Pfft. The CCTV camera boxes would just announce "You there, stop that!" via loudspeaker. Revolt quelled.

    3. Re:HUH? by DrScotsman · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well whatever he's smoking will probably be taxed with the money going to convince people to quit.

    4. Re:HUH? by DrVomact · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, yes, why not do that? If the sale of knives creates some danger in society, than it should be taxed equal to that danger and the funds should go toward extra police or similar.

      Raising taxes can indeed be a way of fighting crime.

      Oh really. Do you have any examples or argument for this astonishingly fatuous assertion? To the extent that taxes affect crime, it is that they create an opportunity for it. If you raise taxes on a commodity enough, it becomes profitable to bypass the tax—in other words, a black market springs into existence to satisfy the economic imbalance created by the tax. Of course, outright prohibition works even better at creating crime, because people must necessarily pay the going price for outlawed commodities. And that means profit. Or did you think that people would say, "oh no, coke is too expensive now because it's illegal, so I guess I'll stop using it". (Substitute substance of your choice, if you like.)

      I suppose one could argue that the British prohibition of civilian gun ownership has had an effect: instead of "gun crime", they now have hysterics over "knife crime". But I would like to think that the true objective of the British government was to stop violent crime; I would like to think that the commodity to be limited was violence, not firearms per se. If so, they would have to admit the failure of their prohibitive laws. I would be naive if I really believed anything of the sort, of course.

      I suppose that when they ban knives, they will have "club crime" and "rock crime". (Sounds like a new sort of music, doesn't it?)

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
  5. Separation of problem and solution by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The youth of Britain apparently feel that the law has no control over them (something I agree is probably the case).

    So you solve that by... raising taxes? It doesn't even matter on what, it might as well be rutabagas for the good it does you in terms of solving the problem. How is making video games that thugs want more expensive so they have to knife four more people to get the funds really going to help?

    Instead, how about imposing some more forceful law over those that feel the law is irrelevant to their actions? When actions start having real consequences, people can and will change.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Separation of problem and solution by pluther · · Score: 5, Funny

      Instead, how about imposing some more forceful law over those that feel the law is irrelevant to their actions? When actions start having real consequences, people can and will change.

      Exactly.

      So, instead of raising taxes on video games, they should impose a tax on stabbing people.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
  6. Why not tax by internerdj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    , you know, knives?

  7. They would be better off by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    if they would put police on the street. Apparently, spy cameras don't deter knife crime unless someone actually gets arrested for it.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  8. Twisted statistics to bring more revenue by Keith_Beef · · Score: 4, Informative

    The British gov't has systematically distorted statistics and selectively presented data in order to advance its own agenda.

    This latest ploy probably has little to do with crime, and more to do with bringing in more cash to fund the gov't's pet projects. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7780057.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7781030.stm

    K

    1. Re:Twisted statistics to bring more revenue by julesh · · Score: 4, Informative

      The British gov't has systematically distorted statistics and selectively presented data in order to advance its own agenda.

      Indeed. And so, too, has the media. As a consequence, while violent crime has dropped 8% over the last year, 65% of people polled thought it had increased.

      Anybody here in the UK who isn't reading Mark Easton's blog needs to add it to their RSS client now. I mean, before you even consider reading the next comment.

  9. Some also want knives banned by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some people in the UK are also calling for the ban of any pointed chef's knives. These people claim that there's no possible reason for a knife to have a point to it except to stab people. Now, I'm not a chef, but I've done my share of cooking. I will often use the pointed tip of my knife to "stab" a food item if the food (like, say tomatoes) resists my initial slice attempts (e.g. looks like it's going to squish instead of slice cleanly). What's next? Ban scissors? Box cutters (not just from planes but any possession of)? Swiss Army Knives?

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  10. Excellent Idea by Intron · · Score: 4, Funny

    There should also be a huge surcharge on Mario Kart applied to the uninsured motorists accident fund. While we're at it, America's Army could be taxed to fund the new push in Afghanistan, and the Bee Movie game could be taxed to find a cure for the honeybee diseases. Let's get creative. In this recession we need to find new ways of extracting money from people. Gamers obviously have too much.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  11. video games by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you can't see the causal relationship between video games and stabbing hookers, then you've never played Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

  12. Plus by msobkow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Plus there is the minor side issue that most video games use guns, not knives to inflict damage. It sounds like the proponent of this tax are yet another example of knee-jerk reactionaries with a hate-on for video games and rap music. Why is it that such nutbars are even heard by government, much less seriously considered?

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  13. Misleading Summary by Shrike82 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Far be it from me to suggest that people RTFA or question the correctness of a summary title, but the father of a murdered boy urging the Prime Minister to tax violent games is a pretty big fucking step from the "UK To Mull High Video Game Taxes - To Fight Knife Crime " in the summary title.

    Just for clarity - the UK government aren't doing anything like what's being implied. One man, rightly or wrongly, is suggesting this.

    --
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  14. Alternatives. by senorpoco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I propose a 278% tax on all history books. History has long been known to contain scenes of bloody violence, sexual deviance and disregard for authority. It is time that the government and parents started to take a stand against the corruptive influence of history.

  15. Bullying was the cause of Damilola's death by bendytendril · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He was stabbed by a gang of 11 to 14-year-olds. The boy's mother had complained repeatedly to the principal about bullies, yet he did nothing.

    Bullying is the real problem here which should be addressed.

    --
    sig: pv qid
  16. Re:Is anyone surprised? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What is a person supposed to do now against someone who has a knife? Ask politely for them to stop?

    In fact, the victim has a Duty to Retreat, sometimes even within their own homes. It is laws like these that have made the public scared and powerless. For the convenience of the government, it is better for ordinary people to simply lay down and die when face with criminal activity.

    People have the right to stand their ground and yes, use violence when they are in danger. While I don't agree with "shoot first" laws that some American states have implemented, it is not always the case that the first person to use violence is in the wrong.

    It's not just guns and knives. People have been seriously injured, permanently disabled and even killed by bare hands and boots. It may be more legally clear who is in the wrong if your attacker strikes first, but that will not help you much if you have to walk with a limp for the rest of your days. Unfortunately, modern legal systems do not recognise this, and will judge the honest man who strikes first far more harshly than the career criminal who does so.

    It's not a question of being armed. Arming people won't help. You have to give people the right to defend themselves. The real right. Not a clause that only comes into effect when they've already been rendered unconscious.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  17. Re:They're taxing the wrong thing! by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Funny

    But according to the CCTV footage, the criminals start by crouch-walking to their targets, then they start stabbing at one stab per second while still two meters away, escalating to bunny hopping if the victim fights back, and eventually crouching again after the crime.

  18. Right that's it. by w0mprat · · Score: 4, Funny

    Tonight I'm going to start on a flash game. Basically your an intoxicated youth, you run around knifing people in town centres trying to stay off CCTV (because that's what youths do I understand), you need to steal bottles of liqour and syringes as power ups. If you drink too much your screen blurs, you fall down and The Fuzz get you, if you sober up, you go back to school get a job and the game is over. Watch out for the CCTV. What shall I call it? "Tax This!"

    --
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  19. Let me get this straight by damburger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They destroyed industrial communities. They gave the police virtually unlimited powers to stop and search young people. They established a foreign policy of might-makes-right and went out of their way to antagonize and alienate immigrant communities. They lied, took bribes, started wars, incited racism, crushed civil liberties, and they are still standing trying to talk like statesmen.

    And computer games are to blame when the kids go berserk? Fucking retarded.

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?