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Berners-Lee Says No To Internet Snooping

Jack Spine writes "The inventor of the World Wide Web has pointed out some of the dangers of deep packet inspection. Sir Tim said that ISPs 'snooping' on data was similar to the interception of mail. 'This is very important to me, as what is at stake is the integrity of the internet as a communications medium,' Berners-Lee said on Wednesday. TBL's comments come as the UK government is gearing up to intercept all web communications in the UK through the Intercept Modernisation Programme, and echo comments he made last year about Phorm."

23 of 113 comments (clear)

  1. Inventor of the world wide by ericrost · · Score: 5, Funny

    The inventor of the world wide what?

    1. Re:Inventor of the world wide by Godwin+O'Hitler · · Score: 4, Funny

      Its a typo. It should read "word wide". TBL invented the word "wide" because prior to then most things were narrow.

      --
      No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
  2. The dream of encryption by CRCulver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I remember 10 years ago that every nerd had a PGP key and Schneier's Applied Cryptography was a standard text for our crowd. Now, the majority of even the hard-core geeks no longer have much interest in encryption. Somewhere along the way we forgot that every step forward on the net demands a way to guarantee privacy. Berners-Lee might regret the lack of privacy now, but he and other luminaries weren't vocal enough about the need for encryption and lots of it.

    1. Re:The dream of encryption by icebike · · Score: 3, Interesting

      PGP keys only help with email.

      Far better to move the entire web to ONLY ssl based servers, (after fixing ssl of course).

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:The dream of encryption by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Where have YOU been living?

      1. I have _multiple_ active GPG keys. All Ubuntu has GPG on them by default.
      2. I use TOR regularly, which uses multiple levels of encryption.
      3. I use HTTPS sites regularly. Not the old dinky 40bit keys either.
      4. My filesystem on my laptops are encrypted via DM_CRYPT and Luks.
      5. Every machine I communicate with has SSH. Therefore, I also have encrypted data tunnels for everything.
      6. I use W.A.S.T.E.

      Yeah. That whole encryption thing died out a while back. Uh huh.

      --
    3. Re:The dream of encryption by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Funny

      Weirdo.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    4. Re:The dream of encryption by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because most of us came to this realization: http://xkcd.com/538/ or the fact that 90% of it doesn't matter.

      All of my Tax documents and other financial stuff is on a 256-bit encrypted disk image. But why the hell do I need to encrypt the message to my mom about my Easter plans? Furthermore, how do I explain to someone that just learned to use a computer that Obama wants to know if it's going to be Ham or Turkey.

      And the last time I planned something big and illegal we sure as hell didn't EMAIL each other about it, we met in person. (3 friends of mine all worked at Taco Bell through High School. Summer before college we planned a heist of the flags off the top. I still have a flag I fly on Rugby trips with the Taco Bell Dog.)

    5. Re:The dream of encryption by lenski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      the promise of the internet is free and open communications.

      What we do with our data is entirely up to us, and nobody else. Not "the government", not ISPs. This includes encrypting whatever is being transmitted.

      You may share any paper, report, program, comment that is yours to publish. Some communications using the Internet should be more like a phone conversation (before USAPATRIOT stupidity), in which a modicum of privacy is a reasonable presumption.

    6. Re:The dream of encryption by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 4, Informative

      What do you mean "Weirdo"?

      Anybody that uses a Unix based system (BSD, Linux, Solaris) all use a variant of OpenSSH.
      Anybody that buys stuff on the net uses 128bit SSL.
      Even that child porn dude that's in the supreme court knew enough to use TrueCrypt.

      Or even another encryption used: WEP and WPA. There's 2 very standard, "non-weird" encryptions. They just arent terribly strong.

      --
    7. Re:The dream of encryption by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because most of us came to this realization: http://xkcd.com/538/ or the fact that 90% of it doesn't matter.

      The problem with the xkcd cartoon is that it only applies if whoever wants your information knows that you have it.

      The point of general encryption is that fishing expeditions are impossible... so the "juicy" stuff that would warrant attention from the powers that be is hidden in the morass of all the other encrypted data.

      Yes, a ten-dollar hammer can be used to get my keys from me... but how do you know I've got the goods if you've never been able to read anyone's data?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    8. Re:The dream of encryption by TrekkieGod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because most of us came to this realization: http://xkcd.com/538/ or the fact that 90% of it doesn't matter.

      All of my Tax documents and other financial stuff is on a 256-bit encrypted disk image. But why the hell do I need to encrypt the message to my mom about my Easter plans?

      Because if somebody's watching you send all those messages to your mom about Easter plans and then suddenly see encrypted traffic, they're going to know that the encrypted traffic must have been special and then come after you with the wrench?

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    9. Re:The dream of encryption by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The world has moved beyond simply sending encrypted e-mails back and forth. Steganography, torrents, tor, etc.

      If I REALLY wanted to coordinate killing the president or something big. I'd probably use YouTube or Craigslist where the Signal to Noise is infinitely small. I'd embed an encrypted stegano message inside video of a guy lighting farts on fire or 'casual encounter' ad. Heck, put up some eBay listings with big pictures. How do you know that latest version of Heroes you downloaded from Bit Torrent doesn't have a 5MB image embedded in it with the President's route on some foreign trip?

      How about those Spam messages that look like a ton of gibberish, do you know they're not some secret code?

      I'm sure if a few Slashdoters put their minds to it, they could come up with a bit more ingenious ways of sending messages than 'plain text' encrypted PGP e-mails.

      The next terrorist isn't going to suddenly start sending encrypted messages from a normal account.

    10. Re:The dream of encryption by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now, the majority of even the hard-core geeks no longer have much interest in encryption.

      Then they're not hard-core geeks.

      Geez, they're not even soft-core geeks. In December 2005, paranoid what-if rants about theoretical risks, became mainstream knowledge. If you're awake (geek or not), you know we have to start encrypting.

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    11. Re:The dream of encryption by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of very foolish people have overgeneralized the point of that cartoon.

      The $5 wrench attack does work to defeat encryption, but it only works when someone is specifically interested in you.

      The bad guys cannot put a $5 wrench on the backbone and slurp up everything. The only way they can do that, is if people agree to not encrypt.

      If you encrypt, you defeat massive-scale surveillance. And you are not defeating a theoretical attack; you're not even defeating a plausible attack. You defeat an attack that the US government is known to be using.

      You don't need to read phrack or 2600 to know about this; read the New York Times or turn on your TV and watch Frontline. Get your head out of the sand.

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      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    12. Re:The dream of encryption by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But why the hell do I need to encrypt the message to my mom about my Easter plans?

      Because I might be looking for houses to burgle on Easter.

      Because privacy should be the default. Instead of asking why your plans should be secret, ask why your plans should be public. It's just as legitimate of a question.

      And the last time I planned something big and illegal we sure as hell didn't EMAIL each other about it, we met in person.

      Good for you. But there's more to life than planning crimes, and there are other threats than government law enforcement (they just happen to be the most high-profile). I know some people think that the only purpose of the internet is for pedophiles to trade porn, but really, people do have other uses for it. Most of those uses are nobody else's business. If you wanted the world to know your Easter plans, you could have posted them to Usenet. Instead, you chose email.

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      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    13. Re:The dream of encryption by ClosedSource · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The promise of the internet is free and open data."

      I thought the promise of the internet was free porn.

      Seriously, it started as a government program and open and free communications was not the goal.

  3. Freedom to Conspire by MarkvW · · Score: 4, Funny

    Which side are you on: CONTROL or KAOS? That is the question. The Government can only answer that question if it can intercept your communications. Are you going to let them? Can you stop them? Do you care?

    All I can say is that you should Get Smart!

  4. This is good by damburger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People like Sir Tim need to speak out on such issues, because their contributions to science and technology are touted by our leaders as 'proof' of Britain being a modern, forward thinking society - rather than the withered, reactionary, largely technophobic old empire we in fact are.

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
  5. Re:At this point does it need to be said? by Obfuscant · · Score: 5, Funny
    Now I have these wonderful encrypted documents that contain proof of alien intervention with the history of our planet and I can't get at it anymore...

    Just mail a copy of each one to yourself at another account and someone will decrypt them for you. I can't tell you who, I've already told you too much and I'm afraid awi3qu91 108OI)

    [NO CARRIER]

  6. Re:At this point does it need to be said? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not because it will bite you in the ass, but because by encrypting everything you 1) give them more stuff to look at and if they are looking at you they aren't looking at me, and 2) it won't be obvious that you are trying to hide something when you DO encrypt that particularly incriminating file. They'll have to spend time decrypting your email to Mom as well as the picture of cousin Julie when she was 4.

  7. Privacy for the rest of us by schwaang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Encryption gives a sometimes false sense of security, and the technology is a hassle. It's better to reinforce societal expectations for privacy where it is due, and let social mechanisms (like laws and market reputation) do the job.

    Consider e.g. that if you use https from your workplace and see the happy little lock icon in FF or IE, you probably feel safe.

    But some workplaces insert a proxy in between you and gmail (or what have you), having stuffed the proxy's certificate on your (their) work machine through local policy. Unbeknownst to you, your employer then sees the communication which you thought was totally private. Now imagine if an ISP could do that and get away with it.

    The point is that even if you do *care*, the technology is hard to keep track of, and there is an arms-race ladder of one-upmanship that makes this a never-ending game, which some nerds can win, and most of us will lose.

    What will really keep you safe is to stand up for a reasonable expectation of privacy where it should exist, and create norms and laws that protect this. Saying "NO" to Phorm or other invasions by ISPs is part of that approach, and creates legal and commercial consequences that are more effective than asking every grandma to mess with PGP.

  8. bad long-term solution by a2wflc · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When governments start snooping on everything they make it harder to snoop on criminals in the future. This makes lots more people want secure networks, which makes more people create tools to make it easy to send/receive encrypted data, which makes even the people who don't know about the issues aware of the issues and tools. Once the tools/protocols become normal, police won't be able to snoop on suspected criminals even with a court order because everything is encrypted.

    That'll just make them pass more laws and restrict ISPs so that unsnoopable content isn't allowed. Which will make people start creating stenogrphy tools so things look snoopable, which will make other people aware of the issues and wonder why the gov't is so concerned and start using them.

    Then people start using those tools and snooping becomes more expensive (trying to detect stenogaphy) and still useless. But it will get lots of otherwise innocent people in trouble for using encryption or stenography to do something unimportant like send email to their mother.

    If police stick to treating everyone as innocent until they had a valid reason to think otherwise and then got a court order they will have a lot more ability to snoop in the future.

  9. Re:What a fucking fantasy land Sir Timmy lives in. by Timosch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So basically the consequence of what you're saying is "Ban encryption, because those bloddy terrorists/chinese spies/pedophiles/software pirates might use it to do something evil"? Yeah, good idea. Tomorrow on CNN: Door locks banned. They prevent police from entering criminals' homes, police say.