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Virtual World, Real Banking

The Opposable Thumbs blog brings news about MindArk PE AB, a Swedish game developer whose MMO Entropia Universe has an in-game economy based on real money. It seems the company has been "granted preliminary approval for a real banking license by the Swedish Finance Supervisory. ... MindArk's going to be just like a bank in the real world: it will be backed by Sweden's $60,000 deposit insurance, offer interest-bearing accounts for its clients, feature direct deposit options, let players pay bills online, and apparently will offer loans to customers." An Associated Press report adds that "The economic activity in Entropia Universe was worth about $420 million last year, about the same as the Pacific island nation of Kiribati, population 110,000. The game has 850,000 player accounts, though not all of them represent active players."

20 of 65 comments (clear)

  1. Dangerous by Capt.+Cooley · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can you say, 'Money laundering'?

    1. Re:Dangerous by michaelhood · · Score: 3, Funny

      MICHAEL
      May-maybe we launder the money.

      PETER
      That's a great idea. Ok, how do we do that?

      MICHAEL
      I don't know, I don't know. I don't even know what it means. It's
      something I think, I think coke dealers do.

    2. Re:Dangerous by Fizzl · · Score: 3, Informative

      Considering that entropia is merely a glorified casino, I am very surprised it they are actually granted the license.

      I tried "playing" entropia for maybe 20 bucks a year or two back. Atleast then it was blindingly obvious that the success revolved around chance and diminishing profits. I tried hunting and mining. Manufacturing seemed too expensive to even start with. Munitions for mining and repairing for hunting were just slightly more expensive than the profits even when carefully done.

  2. A logical and synergistic extension... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

    As we've all seen, the financial sector has thousands of man-years of experience playing games with other people's imaginary money. They should find this new line of business a natural fit...

    1. Re:A logical and synergistic extension... by cjfs · · Score: 3, Funny

      Imaginary money is useful stuff. I use it on a somewhat regular basis. The key is to remember that you have to replace it all with real money, eventually, or there's trouble.

      I've always found it interesting that people are so willing to accept my pieces of paper for real, solid goods.

      The difference between USD and monopoly money is just a matter of confidence.

    2. Re:A logical and synergistic extension... by Jurily · · Score: 2, Funny

      The difference between USD and monopoly money is just a matter of confidence.

      Yeah, at least monopoly money is not dependent on China.

    3. Re:A logical and synergistic extension... by quanticle · · Score: 3, Funny

      I don't know about that. I looked at my Monopoly board the other day and it said, "Made in China."

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  3. There's so much wrong with that... by Quantos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not even sure where to begin.
    So what happens if someone hacks your player account and takes out a mortgage on your house?

    --
    Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
    1. Re:There's so much wrong with that... by Vectronic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As michaelhood pointed out (I think)... it's probably just as likely as hacking your normal bank account.

      As for mortgages, or purchasing a house/car/etc, I presume that those will still require face-to-face meetings and signatures, at least until an assortment of biometric nonsense improves.

      It seems for now, or at least according to the article it's mostly an inward sort of thing, money comes in, but doesnt go out except for (what's now) somewhat normal things you may already do online, pay bills, which will already have an established record, and verification, probably in tandem with your current setup.

      Although, that probably wouldnt stop a hacker that happens to already work for one of the companies you are billed from (Ph., rent, electricity), etc, cause they would know both sides of it, but that too isn't much different from normal non-game-world, but online banking.

      It's basically like, instead of doing your banking with Firefox, and www.bank.com, you are using Game, and 11.22.33.44, both can be secure, or not, all depends on how it's implemented.

    2. Re:There's so much wrong with that... by MoralHazard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Kind of OT, but...

      The simplest scheme in real estate fraud is to rent a house, fill out some fake land title transfer paperwork, and then impersonate the lawful owner and either (A) sell the house to an unsuspecting, honest buyer, or (B) take out a bank mortgage on the house. Either way, you walk off with cash-in-hand.

      Read and learn: http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/newsletter/lawtrends/0709/realestate/realestatefraud101.html . Google for many more news stories.

      The really nasty part, here, is that the original homeowner is, in legal terms, cold fucked. In the case of an outright sale, the unsuspecting buyer actually has a stronger title claim to the property than the original owner--fraud notwithstanding. If the crook mortgaged the house, that bank has a possible (though weaker) legal claim on seizing the collateral (house) if nobody makes the payments.

      The fundamental legal problem: In the US and Canada, the criminal offense of fraud is a totally separate matter from the civil property issue (the title claims, or the mortgage). A subsequent civil transaction isn't automatically voided, just because a criminal act created the conditions for the transaction.

      Moreover, the civil court generally has an obligation to uphold the honest interests of every party that acted in good faith. The buyer of the house or the bank are honest, unsuspecting victims, just like the house's original owner. The law can't just say "Screw the buyer or bank!" and leave them out in the cold.

      To an intelligent lay person, this all seems absurd, and rightly so. It demands constant vigilance of all homeowners, every day, every hour. A crook might do it during your two-week vacation, even--could it even happen while you're at work for the day? It seems much more reasonable to burden the buyer or bank--while it requires increased caution, it's limited to the period of their investigation. They can spot the fraud with homework: compare signatures, visit the neighbors, background check the seller/mortgage-holder, etc. When it's done, they can stop worrying about it.

      It's like King Solomon and splitting the baby--the legal answer and the intuitively "right" answer are quite different. Lucky for the honest homeowners, it's very likely that as judges and lawyers become aware of these problems and reflect on them further, subsequent case law will start to get it right. Or the legislatures might change the law, but I wouldn't bet on that, first.

  4. Why not? by MikeFM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is this any different than having a mobile interface or a web interface? It's just a new way to access banking integrated into a virtual world.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  5. Re:Sounds like Second Life. by michaelhood · · Score: 3, Informative

    A quick trip to Wikipedia tells me that Entropia predates Second Life by more than 6 months. And as far as I know, their underlying model has always been based on real money, just like Second Life's.

  6. Re:Sounds like Second Life. by Lordfly · · Score: 3, Funny

    The difference is SL is wealth generation is based on the creation of new assets and the flexing of your creativity. Entropia's money-creating scheme is more akin to a casino; the house generally always wins.

    The end result may be the same (perhaps 10-20% of all of the creative people in SL actually see a significant profit, and perhaps 10-20% of Entropia's players are the same way), but I'd rather take my chances with creative output that I own the rights to instead of a grindfest stacked against me.

    Disclaimer: I'm a semi-dormant SL guru and virtual worlds developer since 2003.

    --
    hookers and grits.
  7. Digital cash by geekgirlandrea · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now I want to write a cypherpunk-themed MMORPG, and set up something like this as cover for connecting an cryptographically anonymous digital cash system to the real-world banking infrastructure.

    1. Re:Digital cash by cbrocious · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll meet you at The Black Sun.

      --
      Disconnect and self-destruct, one bullet at a time.
  8. Terrific! by nedlohs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So now if you manage to collect a bunch of money in a game you have to file an FBAR with the IRS.

  9. Flaws by TigerTails · · Score: 2, Informative

    This system is just open to so many flaws.. both technical and otherwise. Technical side of it, a bug appears, a user somehow managed to make millions in a matter of minute, and.. oh look.. he can just turn it into real money and run away never to be seen again. Otherwise-side of it, the company could easily use this to cover some unlawful transactions, with so many odd and seemingly pointless transactions and deposits, who would notice one rogue equally as useless transaction.. Another thing to note is, who will "own" the bank? Will the company be able to just take money off me whenever they want because it's "their game", dispute it been real money..?

  10. The miracle of Worgl by Colin+Smith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    During the 1930s depression, a little town in Austria called Worgl decided to print their own money, since the national currency was in such short supply.

    It worked wonders, unemployment went from 30% to less than 5%.

    What makes money worth something is the market. Is there a market for it? Since the Worgl money was produced by the local council and accepted for all council payments including taxes, there was a ready market for the money.

    The utility of money is that it is readily exchangeable for goods and services.

    You use cheques? You use credit cards? Debit cards? None of these are "official" money. They are not US dollars. They are credit, created and supplied by private banks. That credit is exchangeable into paper dollars as required. The current recession is caused by banks denying people access to that credit.

    Credit is imaginary money (whereas paper is not) because it vanishes. Credit is created (from nothing) when you take out a loan. Along with the credit, there's a debt. The debt pays interest and the credit vanishes as the debt is paid. Hence credit is "temporary money". Also, there is far more credit than there is real money, about 95% of money is bank created credit, so if everyone went and asked for paper dollars, there wouldn't be enough to pay them all. This is the dirty little secret of banking. Banks don't just hold and loan out money. They create new imaginary/temporary money which they loan out to you.

    So. Bankers are people who actually do create monopoly money. On a daily basis and on a massive scale. You now understand why they are always telling you that you "must have confidence in the banking system"?

    --
    Deleted
  11. Re:Entropia, how I long to play the.. by BarneyL · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're not missing much. While I haven't tried it in a while when I did the game was basically one big slot machine.
    You buy ammo at a cost of about 1 cent a shot, you then shoot animals and hope that whatever they drop is worth more than the ammo you use - it almost always won't be, once in a blue moon you hit the jackpot and make a profit.
    You buy mining equipment and survey charges at 10 cents a go, you let off the charges to locate minerals and hope the minerals are worth more than the charges you use - it almost always won't be, once in a blue moon you hit the jackpot and make a profit.

    I'm sure you've spotted the pattern by now so I won't waste my time how any of the other "gameplay options" such as crafting work. I'm suprised no one has tried to apply gambling laws to the thing yet because that's all the game is with an admittedly pretty front end dropped over it.

  12. Re:Sounds like Second Life. by Ghubi · · Score: 2, Informative

    Entropia is a game. It has a rule-set, monsters to kill, etc. Second Life is not a game.