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Should Network Cables Be Replaced?
Jyms writes "As technology changes, so hubs routers and switches are upgraded, but does the cabling need replacing, and if so, how often? Coax gave way to CAT 5 and CAT 5e replaced that. If you are running a 100Mbit/s network on old CAT 5, can that affect performance? Do CAT 5(e) cables get old?"
Just like any cable, cables will break. So, yes, they do get old.
Also, there is cat6 cables out with better specs and can handle at least up 10gb/sec.
For best performance, replace it with a genuine high performance cable like this: http://www.usa.denon.com/productdetails/3429.asp
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Should I have a plumber re-run copper all over my house?
maybe if your new sink is capable of 1000 gpm (gallons per minute) and the pipes can only provide 100 gpm. but that's only if you care about using your new sink to its full potential.
Only if you need bigger pipes.
You should replace your tired old CAT5 with brand new, all-gold Monster-CAT6+++++++!
Only $1000 a foot, starting in 10 foot increments!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I am responsible for a 17 location VPN base WAN for a retail chain. We use Cat5e for everything, but in the end, it hardly matters, because Cat3 at 10 mbps is still over four times faster than the T-1 that it talks to the outside world with.
But we don't work with large files internally, even here in the corporate office. If one is working with gigabyte sized files on a regular basis, on a local network, it would matter.
Obligatory:
When it was installed, your old cable had to run signals uphill through the snow, both directions. They didn't have electrons back then, they had to nake do with quarks. Time hadn't been invented yet, so the direction and speed of network traffic was hard to estimate.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I'm not sure what would "get old" exactly. It's insulated copper, so I think it should be good so long as they aren't damaged. If anyone knows better, feel free to correct me.
If you want to be sure, though, test them. Transfer files over your network. If the connection is bad, you can try replacing the cable and see if that works. But the fact that Cat6 is out doesn't mean you have to rush out and replace all your CAT5e cables, especially if you're only dealing with normal 100mbps connections. But I use CAT5e for 1gbps connections, and that seems to work fine.
These people should be able to help you.
Seriously though, what strange question. Either the cable works and you're happy with the bandwidth it provides, or it stops working and you replace it, or you want to upgrade it. What's the complication here?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
It's not pipes. It's a series of tubes.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
If you do not, then cracks will appear and bits will start to drip from it. Soon, that drip will become bigger and you will have bytes dropping out. Cheaper to replace them now, then to lose all those bytes. I can be over there next week to replace them all for a low low price.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Do not replace network cables just to do it. That is a waste of time and money Replace them in two situations:
1) You are moving to a faster signaling speed and need better cabling. 10mbps requires Cat-3, 100mbps requires Cat-5, 1000mbps requires Cat-5e. Do not run higher speeds on lower standards, it works sometimes but often it "works" in that you get link but there's all kind of errors.
2) A cable has a fault. Sometimes they will break because of strain. In this case, you need to replace them to make them work.
Barring that, keep the cable you have. No reason to replace it just for fun. Also no reason to upgrade to new standards without a reason. It isn't as though it makes shit work better. 10mbps is 10mbps no matter if it is on Cat-3 or Cat-6. Also sometimes you get standards that aren't useful. Cat-6 is likley to never be useful for anything. 1gbps only needs Cat-5e, and 10gbps is likley to require Cat-6a. So if you upgraded a Cat-5e network to Cat-6 to prepare for faster speeds, well then you probably wasted your money and will have to upgrade again to Cat-6a if you want 10gbps.
maybe if your new sink is capable of 1000 gpm (gallons per minute) and the pipes can only provide 100 gpm. but that's only if you care about using your new sink to its full potential.
The bathroom stalls where I work are always full. There's not enough toilets for the number of butts. They could certainly benefit from upgraded bathroom bandwidth.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
If you install cables outside in pipe with good insulation they should last 10-15 years with few problems.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
its the interfaces, not the bandwidth
rewriting history since 2109
"If it ain't broke, don't replace it with Cat6."
Seriously, replacing cable is gigantic pain in the ass, when you could be doing better things with your time. Not to mention, it's expensive if you have a large enough installation-- this is why people are spending so much to keep Cat5e creaking along.
If it's working, and you're happy with it, keep it. If you need something faster, or it doesn't work anymore, or you need to meet new fire codes, well, that answers your question.
Remember, wires are solid state electronics. There's not much to go wrong there unless you're in extreme environments.
Well terminated cat5 cable will be sufficient for achieving 1Gb/s speeds. What's more important for maximizing your throughput is to ensure that you have your cables properly wired to support full duplex connections. In addition, all passive hubs should be eliminated and replaced with GigE switches, either managed or unmanaged depending on how much control you need.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
No.
I'll be here all week.
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
The bathroom stalls where I work are always full. There's not enough toilets for the number of butts. They could certainly benefit from upgraded bathroom bandwidth.
yeah, I'm sure the bandwidth (drain pipe) is large enough for all the shit. It sounds more like they need to increase the number of connections allowed.
We had a contractor wire our office and had no problems until we started using roaming profiles. A few of the connection terminators were bad and only allowed a 1mb/s connection. The computers that had these problems normally only transfered a text files from the server, or surfed the internet and weren't really using more than that bandwidth anyway. So, with large file copies associated with roaming profiles, we finally found the problem. At that point, I distrusted the contractors work and had every connection redone (40 total) and retested to the full 1000mbs our network actually supported.
So my suggestion is this. Unless someone kicks the cable every day, there isn't much to go wrong. Monitor for abnormally high number of collisions on one port, and yearly perform throughput tests.
We replaced all of our Type 1 cabling at my company after the tokens started falling out.
"What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
Cables don't get "old" by themselves, but they might have been installed incorrectly from the start (too tight bending, swapped pairs/cables, twisted pairs separated for a longer distance, shields not connected properly, grounding done wrong). Furthermore mechanical stress (too much work being done on a patch panel over the course of several years, cables pulled hard while moving racks, ...) might have damaged parts of the cabling.
To cut a long story short: Properly done CAT5 should be good enough for Gigabit, but often what's called CAT5 works well for 100 Mbit networks even though it doesn't meet the specs.
Get a decent LAN tester (not just two computers, using "ping") that prints out attenuation, crosstalk and all the other things... and preferably tells you what "category" your cabling still is compatible with. Replace all the stuff that's out of spec. Then you have hard numbers you can rely on should you ever ponder if your local network infrastructure can handle 100M/1G/10G bit/s. Everything else is guesswork.
I kind of took this article more to be suggesting that we should be looking at newer data transmission technologies and materials - not so much continuing in a line, all involving copper.
There are some recent reports released stating that *really* common elements used in technology are about to become exhausted resources - most in the next 10 years, but some as soon as 4 years from now.
For instance, at our current rate of consumption, Indium will be exhausted in four years. Indium is used for current generation LCD displays, among other things.
Gold and copper are in the same boat. The US already has closed down most of its gold mines, and all of its copper mines because they're not economically viable to mine for anymore. Predictions put gold and copper at exhausted in around 10 years.
And none of these projections take into account population growth or new technology demands. It's only at "current consumption rates".
In other words:
Should we be looking to upgrade cabling to fiber optics or other mediums for transmission of data, so that we can begin reclaiming copper to be used in more essential capacities?
Bull - you can do Gig-E (IEEE 802.3ab) perfectly fine up to the 100 meter spec over regular old CAT-5 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_ethernet. You don't need CAT-5e or CAT-6 unless you have incredibly shitty cable, splices, runs approaching max length, or too many patch panels along the route (IE, a crappy install in the first place).
Now, I personally use shielded CAT-6 for everything, but I believe in overkill :)
OF WHAT?! Ewww...
Instead of increasing bandwidth, what about using traffic-shaping instead? I'm not sure if this is something that could be automated, or if it would need to be done manually [shudder].
Obviously, to anyone familiar with overselling is aware of, the problem is not the number of users for the bandwidth assigned. The problem is likely that 2% of your poopers consume (bad word choice, I know) 98% of your bandwidth, resulting in a logjam of epic proportions just after lunch. They key would be to cap their usage, so that everyone else can use the bandwidth in moderate amounts.
Most likely, your excessive users are illegally logsharing anyway. There can't be any legitimate reason for someone to spend 4 hours a workday on the crapper, can there?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
In industrial settings, cable breakage from mechanical flexing stresses isn't uncommon.
In residential or commercial use though, your typical ethernet cable shouldn't really degrade over time unless it is subjected to frequent connection. My personal experience leads me to believe cables running between patch panels and routers are pretty reliable, but those between cubicle walls and connected to laptop docking stations fail most frequently.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Yes, but make sure all the connectors are gold plated - it helps to improve the quality of the water.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
"Should I make work for myself on a complicated, invasive, lengthy, and hard to stop project so I can continue to justify my job in a recession?"
No.
If you're going to do anything, upgrade to fiber.
--
$tar -xvf
I've worked with a handful of LANs in small and large scale and I can't think of a single instance when the cable in the wall caused problems on its own. Jacks? Yes. Cut wires? Yes. Chewed wires (rodents)? Yes. Installed by old-school electricians who put staples every 3 feet? Yes.
Having a good supply of ~6' cables made up for end users who yank the connectors off or fold them over until the internal conductors break or cut them is a good idea, though. That tends to be where the most abuse is.
***Copper pipes actually do lose capacity in normal use, at least with hard water. So I'd replace those cables if you've been running hard bits through them.*** In order to avoid problems like this in the future, we recommend that you install a Scamcraft 357A Bit Softener on each network port that operates at speeds greater than 10Mbps.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
It isn't as though higher grade materials really cost that much more. There are better grades of the materials that go in to a cable. That is the difference between some cheap wire from a hardware store and something like, say, a professional Belden cable. However you'll discover that the cost difference between the two isn't a whole lot. Cheap RG-59 might run you $0.10/foot and Belden 1694A might run you $0.50/foot.
So yes, they'll often use good materials, because they don't come anywhere near the sales price. For $500 I imagine I could make you a Cat-5 cable using silver conductors if you wanted (silver wire isn't nearly as expensive as people seem to think).
The markup on "audiophile" cable is so insane they can afford to do things well.
Any category of "cat" can certainly help with that...
A good cable tester (say, a Fluke for example) is extremely expensive, but not as expensive as the man-hours involved in re-wiring an enterprise network because "maybe I think it might be worn out".
Seriously, get a good tester, and it will tell you exactly which wires you need to replace. People on slashdot are just guessing, they have no freaking idea if your wires are any good (apparently you don't know either, but a tester will fix that problem for you).
Over time, UV and ozone in the atmosphere attack the plasticiser in PVC cables. This makes the outer jacket stiff and prone to cracking. Long before the cracks are large enough to be visible, they can be letting surprisingly large amounts of ether escape from your ethernet. Quite often you can regas the cables with a bottle of ether and a special adaptor, but ultimately you will still need to replace them.
Should I have a plumber re-run copper all over my house?
If they soldered those pipes with lead... Then yeah.
But that had nothing to do with your sink.
Er... not really. Although there may be a small risk for potable water, most of the pipework inside a house is for non-potable water. Taking the lead out of ALL solder (RoHS) is about protecting plumbers, not householders. If you have existing Heating and DHW systems jointed with lead solder, leave them be - they will be far less prone to leaks than any of the current lead-free solder compounds.
[ ]Half Empty [ ]Half Full [x]Twice as big as it needs to be
No, you don't get it. This is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your shit in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, ENORMOUS amounts of material.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Yeah, the cables too do not get old. They just get clogged.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
Play one of those halloween scary sound CD's on repeat, very loud, all day. It's not so much scary as it is unsettling, and people will avoid spending time in there unless it's an emergency.
Alternate titles:
pigs being slaughtered
Jokes, except the punchline is cut out
one cat, in heat, wailing and meowing to be let out
classical out of one speaker, the sound of crazed laughter out the other
the sound of two balloons being rubbed together
random gunshots spaced 30 sec-90 sec apart. LOUD.
highly amplified signal coming from a microphone near the occupant's toilet
ticking clock that randomly speeds up and slows down
the soundtrack from zombo.com
I don't know. I think my idea would work.
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
Do you think Sherlock Holmes would have solved so many cases if he smoked a tube? No, Watson, he fucking well wouldn't.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I thank you for making me laugh... Once upon a time, I was called in to an "emergency meeting" with the head of sales to discuss "network problems" has was having. I took along my network guy and we were introduced to a "network specialist" (a friend of one of the sales guys) which (with a straight face) proceeded to describe how the cables were "old" and the "electrons inside had probably worn out". The meeting ended when I could not stop laughing...
I needed to laugh again, and your post did it....
I didn't overclock my sink and bling it out with tube lighting and a giant plexiglass window just so I could settle for a measily 100gpm. I want power, and damnit I'm going to get it, no matter how much those pipes cost!
Well, oddly enough I did IT work for a plumbing company. One of the things they did was "repipes" of residences. Usually they were done due to recurrence of leaks. Copper pipe corrodes from the inside because of chemicals in the water (like chlorine). Sometimes it was done where there was minimal water flow, when corrosion or sediment didn't wash away, but built up.
So, if you got a new sink because you were changing the rusty faucets and then you found your water flow wasn't improved, you may be a candidate for repiping part or all of your home. It could just be buildup in the shutoff valve too.
But to stay on topic......
I've seen people run network cables over or under their carpet. They start getting degraded service as people walk on it. Yes, those need to be changed. Properly run network cables (in the walls, with no rat infestations to eat the cables) don't generally need to be changed, unless something else happened. And I have seen network cards that handle regular CAT5 at speeds over 100Mb/s with 1000baseTX interfaces. Sometimes you can just reterminate the cables because the "spare" 2 pairs were never wired right, assuming those extra wires are ok (i.e., the installer didn't yank the cable through and bugger it up.
But, realize (to the OP) that there are limitations to GigE on a computer. Most of the time in the real world, you won't see 1000Mb/s. It's dependent on the switching hardware, PCI/PCIe bus, hard drives being read from/to, etc, etc, etc....
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
its the interfaces, not the bandwidth
I don't know about you, but I prefer using the other end.
Coming this fall from MONSTER PLUMBING...
Well, you could reduce the buttwidth to increase the utilization. I think you'll find, though, that simultaneous pot sharing is going to be a non-starter for your user community. To say nothing of dealing with backup issues.
And I have seen network cards that handle regular CAT5 at speeds over 100Mb/s with 1000baseTX interfaces.
I got a leftover cable spool from a friend and didn't really check it when I laid it in for my 100mbit network. I switched to gigabit, and a year or two after that I looked at the spool and noticed it was CAT5; the only time I'd ever had any trouble with it was with a bad crimp or two that hadn't been exposed on 100mbit.
CAT5e should be good for 100 meters of GigE; that Cat5 can handle GigE over the more common shorter distances isn't really that strange. Upgrade any long distance cable and ignore the rest unless there's a problem.
Now, for 10GBaseT or 40GBaseT it'll be time to look things over, Cat6a through Cat7a provide performance for 500-1000MHz compared to the 100MHz of the Cat5 offerings.
The trouble with ethernet is it's negotiation scheme only takes account of the capability of the end devices, NOT the conditions on the line in between them (this is different from something like modern ADSL which negotiates a rate based on line conditions).
So if your cable is not up to gigabit (cat5 should theoretically support gigabit but only if it's installed absoloutely to spec and the run isn't too long), you put gigabit hardware at both ends and you don't manually (which opens it's own can of worms e.g. duplex mismatch issues) force the speed down it will try to run at gigabit and end up with a horrible error rate.
To put it another way for small networks with unmanaged switches make sure you stick to 100 megabit switches unless you are sure your wiring is good for gigabit.
Oh and make damn sure you don't have any "split pairs" (two lines that should be on the same pair on different pairs), those will cause horrible error rate even at 100 megabit.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
its the interfaces, not the bandwidth
I don't know about you, but I prefer using the other end.
You defecate through your penis?
Fascinating.
I read "Should Network Cables Be Replaced" and thought maybe I could learn something and gain some insight. Instead I'm treated to the most bizarre toilet analogy of epic proportions.
This may be the best reply thread in the history of /. IMHO.
THANKYOU /.'ers for making my day! :D
You moved your mouse. Please restart Windows for changes to take effect.
If you have galvanized currently, it might be detrimental to your sink performance and long term health to not run new copper pipes.
Oh wait, are you attempting to use an analogy to prove a point? Like most analogies this one is false and meaningless. Also analogies are neither proof or evidence, they are a tool for illustration, not debate.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Maybe they should just add a wireless hotspot and allow anonymous connections!
I think Monster sells those. With gold plated connectors. $150000 each.
" ... If you are running a 100Mbit/s network on old CAT 5, can that affect performance? ..." ... Do CAT 5(e) cables get old? ..."
Yes.
"
Yes.
Questions you didn't ask:
Q: Are old cables bad cables? A: By themselves, no. CAT 5 is made of high quality copper with a PTFE (Teflon) dielectric and protected by a reasonably robust PVC jacket that is rated for in-wall use, a high specification to begin with. They are essentially made of materials selected from the list of the best appropriate materials generally used for any cable need, and better than most of the cable in your home, your car, etc
Q: Does it degrade slowly over time? A: Yes, in the sense that everything does, and no in the sense that either it's broken or it's not broken.
Q: How will I know if it's broken? A: It won't work, and that includes intermittently not working.
Q: Can cables break? A: Yes. If they do, replace or repair them.
Q: Should I replace my Cat5 cables with Cat6? A: Probably not.
Q: Is the shininess and newness of my cables the most important part? A: No, the shininess and newness is relatively unimportant. The corrosionlessness and unbrokenness is fairly important, as is the competenceness of the installer, the appropriateness of the grade of original cabling and connectors, and the qualityness of any work by the installer.
Q: Is it easy to screw up a Cat5/5e/6 installation. A: Yes. Having said all that, CatX cable is remarkably resilient and amazingly tolerant of pathetic, shoddy and downright incompetent installation. Take comfort in that.
Q: What if I'm not getting the speed I should be from my network? A: Test the cables for integrity, and if you find you need to replace all the cabling, start on page one and decide what to replace it with and what your future needs will be. Keep in mind the goal is "future interconnection" and not "replace the Cat5 with Cat6" (even though that might be the proper conclusion). Whatever your answers, install it all at the same time.
With the exception of toilet water, all domestic running water is expected to be drinkable.
I don't know about the US, but in the UK this is certainly not true. Only mains cold water is classed as potable. Domestic hot water should never be used for drinking or food preparation, not because of the low risk from lead poisoning, but the very real biological risk it presents. Recent regulations here regarding sealed and screened header tanks (also increased use of combi boilers) do something to ameliorate this risk, but seriously, if you are ingesting domestic hot water then lead poisoning is the least of your worries, especially if you follow recent guidelines and set your DHW temperature to a bacteria-friendly 38-40C instead of the old-fashioned 60C. (Apparently it is very dangerous for hot water to actually be hot).
I don't think dish-washing or mixer taps present any real danger (metallic or biological), as the amounts ingested are verging on the homeopathic. Even taking DHW into account, most domestic pipework is taken up by the heating circuit. Unless you drink the little squirt of water that comes out when you bleed the radiators, you are better off sticking with existing lead-solder joints here.
Compression fittings would be a better choice for a new installation, because current lead-free solders are really not fit for purpose. Plastic push-fit systems are also a possibility, but I would prefer to wait 5-10 years to make sure the current generation really don't suffer from the seal degradation problems of earlier systems - (then again, is plastic safe?).
Finally, most UK toilets are plumbed directly into the mains, so as long as you drink from the cistern rather than the pan, it is a lot safer than the hot tap.
[ ]Half Empty [ ]Half Full [x]Twice as big as it needs to be
I just looked inside my cables to see if they were clogged. Turns out they were. Every one of my vinyl data conduits was all plugged up with copper.
Slashdot, should I get new intertubes?
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Oh sure, blame the content providers!
A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
Are you implying that a cat5 network is a series of tubes? O.o
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Not only can your gear affect your speeds, but conflicts with speed auto-sensing can wreak havoc.
We recently swapped out some older edge switches in one site for a beautiful new CISCO core switch. Within days, the help desk had reports that some users' network performance had gone from fine to terrible. (Not our intent.)
As it turns out, a boatload of older NICs were mishandled by the new switch which downgraded speeds, communicated in half-duplex, and even then continually reset the connection.
Had the users not complained, we never would have known there was a problem.
As it turns out, each port on the core switch can be manually set to a fixed 100mb full duplex (and ignore auto-sensing) which then operates just fine.
So much for plug-n-pray.
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
never said you did. platinum's corrosion resistant, expensive, and shiny, which makes it a perfect fit for monster's business model. (it's also a worse conductor than gold, but their target market won't know that.)
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
Yes get the best monstercable.com has to offer. In fact get two I've heard that will double your data quality!
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
I'm sure you meant to use this link for the best price - the comments here will fill you in on the AWESOMENESS of these cables.
Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM/
~hylas
This may be one instance where REDUCING the amount of fibre in the network may help ease the load.
I am not a professional plumber but I have done a fair bit... As I understand it your hot water should be stored at between 60 and 70 deg C to prevent legionaries, any hotter will cause scale build up. The 38 to 40 deg C is only a requirement in places where the general public may be using the hot water (all council buildings have hot water that is tepid). The main store of water is still held at 60 to 70 deg C it is simply blended near the point of use down to 38 to 40 deg C.
As for plastic pipes I would choose them over copper any day for the simplicity of fitting. I've never had a joint go bad after fitting miles of the stuff. I do, however, always make sure I use polythene based pipes and not the poly-butyl based ones. The butyl pipes are softer but there are some questions over them leaking plasticisers into the water.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
Dear god man.. its not really that degraded of living outside of the USA is it??
Yes, it is... I was amazed when I moved to the UK & first saw how the water supply worked. To an American, the thought that you could have a (dead) pigeon in your water tank is horrifying; in the UK it's just accepted. See about 4 minutes into this classic Fawlty Towers, for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-sRQ1oTxc
Half of the places I lived didn't even have the most rudimentary of covers over the tank; the worst was a large open lead lined trough. A lot of my British roommates didn't even realize that drinking from any tap other than the kitchen cold tap was a bad idea, despite most of them having tales of bad stuff happening in their houses. The best one was the bathroom tap which stopped working; the plumber found their missing hamster clogging the pipe...
Found the link to Amazon for that thing somewhere in this thread. Some reviews are simply hilarious =)
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/product-reviews/B000I1X6PM/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.