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Drug Company Merck Drew Up Doctor "Hit List"

Philip K Dickhead sends in a piece from the Australian media, a couple of weeks old, that hasn't seen much discussion here. In a class-action lawsuit in Australia against Merck for its Vioxx anti-arthritis drug, information has come out that the company developed a "hit list" of doctors who had expressed anything but enthusiasm for the drug. Vioxx was withdrawn from the market in 2004 because it causes heart attacks and strokes. Merck settled a class action in the US for $4.85 billion but did not admit guilt. "An international drug company made a hit list of doctors who had to be 'neutralized' or discredited because they criticized the anti-arthritis drug the pharmaceutical giant produced. Staff at US company Merck & Co. emailed each other about the list of doctors — mainly researchers and academics — who had been negative about the drug Vioxx or Merck and a recommended course of action. The email, which came out in the Federal Court in Melbourne yesterday as part of a class action against the drug company, included the words 'neutralize,' 'neutralized,' or 'discredit' against some of the doctors' names. It is also alleged the company used intimidation tactics against critical researchers, including dropping hints it would stop funding to institutions and claims it interfered with academic appointments. 'We may need to seek them out and destroy them where they live,' a Merck employee wrote, according to an email excerpt read to the court by Julian Burnside QC, acting for the plaintiff."

64 of 281 comments (clear)

  1. Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We've all seen the classic beer commercial. Some guy is bored and alone. Then he cracks open a beer and suddenly this amazing party materializes out of nowhere and bunch of adoring super-models surround the guy like he's the hottest guy on the planet.

    Most of us recognize that this is a marketing fantasy. Sure, beer is often served at parties and there are often some attractive women at parties but the actual events depicted in such commercials are solidly in the realm of fantasy. More fundamentally, most of us recognize that the reason we are being shown the beer commercial is not because the beer company is devoted to improving our lives but instead because the CEO wants to increase profits so he can get his incentive bonus so he can buy his third mistress that second luxury vacation home she's been asking for. The CEO probably does see himself as a decent guy but, when you strip away the pretense, he's certainly not doing what he does out of pure altruism.

    We've also all seen the classical antidepressant commercial. Some guy "hurts everywhere" and "everyone". Then he pops a couple cute little pills and "everywhere" and "everyone" magically stops hurting - whatever problems he may have had with his health or his career or his relationships or his dog are magically cured by those cute little pills.

    Do most of us recognize that this is a marketing fantasy? Probably not. Sure, antidepressants are prescribed to people with depression and people do recover from depression. But the idea that a couple pills will solve every single problem you have in your life is solidly in the realm of fantasy. More fundamentally, the reason we are shown the antidepressant commercial is not because the pharmaceutical company is devoted to improving our lives but instead because the CEO wants to increase profits so he can get his incentive bonus so he can buy his third mistress that second luxury vacation home she's been asking for. The CEO probably does see himself as a decent guy but, when you strip away the pretense, he's certainly not doing what he does out of pure altruism.

    So, getting back to the topic in this Slashdot article, people should look at such articles and wake up to the fact that pharmaceutical companies are not motivated by altruism - and that, furthermore, pharmaceutical will make whatever claims about their drugs that they think they can legally get away with. When a pharmaceutical company makes a "scientific" claim about one of their drugs, you can be sure that the claim has the bare minimum of actual scientific basis allowed by law.

  2. When big businesses get too big by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We see this over and over again. We saw it in HP where leadership was so arrogant that it thought it should be able to do the things it did overstepping boundaries. Critics must be silenced. This isn't about competition in the sense of making better, safer, more effective things. This is about competition of life versus death quite literally. They see the world as an opponent that must be controlled, misdirected or otherwise "neutralized." In short, they are sociopathic and should be legally marked and deemed as such.

    1. Re:When big businesses get too big by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most people living today don't know the basic fact that corporations are "legal fictions" that require the government to exist. Corporations to many these days are some magical category that somehow exist on their own, and until we have a corporate rule type situation that the cyberpunk authors like to write about then we corporations really do require a government to issue them a charter.

      I don't know if we have laws that make it hard to revoke a corporate charter, but if we do legislators can write laws to change that (good luck as corporate lobbyists have so much influence). Revoking a corporation's charter is the death penalty as applied to corporations and it has been an option that has been forgotten about. However, if you believe that certain persons are such a menace that capitol punishment is called for, how could you throw the same option away when it comes to corporations that are a menace to society or show themselves unable to follow the common law?

      We ought to start thinking as a country about revocation of corporate charters.

  3. Best practice for a doctor: by gcnaddict · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you're a doctor, don't say anything about any drug. If you praise a drug, you'll look like a shill. If you slam a drug, you'll... well, probably get killed.

    Just stay out of it, even if it means you make $100,000 less every year. Getting involved is a lose/lose.

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    1. Re:Best practice for a doctor: by oldhack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Publishing papers, commenting on them, are these too "outwardly"?

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    2. Re:Best practice for a doctor: by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep. Much of the doctor to doctor advertising is on the basis of "Dr. So and So at the University thinks this is a great drug". No facts, just opinion, and typically money under the table. Or even money up front and center.

      For years doctors seemed to be under the allusion that they were protected from advertising's nefarious psychological hooks because "we're smart". That nonsense is being completely and thoroughly debunked as these sorts of blantant maneuvering and lying on the behalf of Big Pharma become more apparent. More and more (although still a minority, unfortunately) of physicians don't let drug reps near them. And this sort of behavior is accelerating the trend.

      It will take another half generation or so of new docs to come up through the ranks with a very jaundiced view of drug company advertising. But it will happen. And the Big Pharma knows it. Which is why they are so keen to push direct to consumer advertising.

      Follow the money. Corporations always do.

      --
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    3. Re:Best practice for a doctor: by Metasquares · · Score: 3, Funny

      Larry Wall has just sent out a memo to "unlink" you.

  4. I hope ... by PPH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... that Australian law allows them to ream Merck out for this kind of behavior. Specifically, attacking another's professional reputation. In some places (States in the USA) its considered a violation of the professional code of ethics that can cause one to lose a license to practise certain professions (engineering, for example). But in the US, its rare to see any penalties imposed. Only in cases where actual financial damages can be proven (in spite of the fact that licensing laws impose no such requirement).

    As medical professionals rely heavily on reputation for their livelihood, it would be nice to see this taken seriously. Interesting note: The only group that seems to be successful in having such regulations enforced in the US are lawyers (as in having web sites that rate lawyers taken down).

    --
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  5. Corporate Personhood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    www.google.com/#q=corporate+personhood

    www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

    We believe that corporations are not persons and possess only the privileges we willfully grant them. Granting corporations the status of legal "persons" effectively rewrites the Constitution to serve corporate interests as though they were human interests. Ultimately, the doctrine of granting constitutional rights to corporations gives a thing illegitimate privilege and power that undermines our freedom and authority as citizens. While corporations are setting the agenda on issues in our Congress and courts, We the People are not; for we can never speak as loudly with our own voices as corporations can with the unlimited amplification of money.

    1. Re:Corporate Personhood by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, basic reading into corporate personhood reveal that SCOTUS never even directly ruled on this idea. It's been accepted as fact ever since a clerk wrote a footnote into a ruling that said "The supreme court sees corporations as persons" or the like.

      Someday, hopefully someone with a bankbook can work on challenging this and ACTUALLY getting it to the supreme court... when that court isn't full of corporate shills like Alito. I'm sure this "Strict Consitutionalist" won't remember that consitution writers didn't trust corporations (because of their dealings with the East India company) and were opposed of handing out corporate charters that didn't expire after a given period of time.

    2. Re:Corporate Personhood by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Railing about the legal properties of corporations is attacking a straw man. The problem is that illegal activities caused by an individual in a large organization can be deflected from both the organization and the guilty individual. It is this defect in the law and the judges who misunderstand the law that need to be fixed, not the shorthand that in some respects a corporation is like a person.

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    3. Re:Corporate Personhood by vaporland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad this is the decision that started the whole mess...

      --
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  6. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by UncleTogie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We've all seen the classic beer commercial. Some guy is bored and alone. Then he cracks open a beer and suddenly this amazing party materializes out of nowhere and bunch of adoring super-models surround the guy like he's the hottest guy on the planet.

    Spookily enough, this is how they sold the doctors on the meds to begin with.

    I worked as IT guy at a medical office for a number of years, and noticed that I'd never seen an ugly pharmaceutical rep. The reps sent to the doc's office were all pretty enough to drive most guys googoo, and I noticed even Doc was hanging on her every word. Later, I asked the office manager if that was common and actually WORKED. "Every time I'VE seen," she replied...

    Since then, I've always wondered how many drugs were prescribed solely because of hooters.

    --
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  7. Not that surprised: The Truth About Drug Companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I am really not that surprised. There is a great book out there written by a former New England Journal of Medicine editor-in-chief, Marcia Angell, called, The Truth About Drug Companies. (amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Drug-Companies-Deceive/dp/0375760946/ref=ed_oe_p). The book touches on the fact that drug companies do these kinds of things to Dr.s who disagree with them.

    Kind of off topic, but, among other things the book points out is that they're justification for high R&D costs is absurd. They mainly buy out small bio-tech companies or buy rights from academia / organizations who originally develop block buster drugs.

    It's a great read. for those of you to lazy to get your hands on the book (forgot how to read) youtube has some videos up of her lecturing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouF3ISihHLM

  8. Big Pharma is evil, but... by guyminuslife · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My mother was taking Vioxx regularly when the whole scandal broke. She immediately went to the pharmacist to get as much of the stuff as she could before it got taken off the market. The other drugs didn't really do it for her. Arthritis sucks, and as a dentist, it has a huge impact on your ability to do your job.

    Yeah, it might kill you, but on the other hand, it's about quality of life.

    --
    I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    1. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by V50 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep, my uncle was on Vioxx, and it was about the only thing that seemed to work for him. When the whole "Vioxx will kill you" thing broke, it was pretty devastating for him, not because he was concerned with having a heart attack or stroke, but because now the only thing that was working for him in dealing with his arthritis was unavailable.

      I don't think he outright said it, but I really got the impression that, given a choice, he'd gladly take the risks because his arthritis was so bad, and the Vioxx worked very well.

    2. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The sad thing is that Vioxx isn't that dangerous. The problem is that Merck's behavior is very dangerous.

      If the company hadn't decided to lie about it and fight tooth and nail to and discredit everyone, it could easily be on the market today. Just not to really old people, smokers, or other people with high risk factors for heart attacks. And the doctor would hopefully let you know that the pain in your chest might not be heartburn, increasing the probability you'd realize you're having a heart attack and call 911 before you keel over.

    3. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by oneirophrenos · · Score: 2, Informative

      There exists a great deal of genetic polymorphism with regard to drug efficacy and side-effects. Individuals have differing capabilites for metabolizing a drug, which leads to some people being able to tolerate higher doses than others.

      In fear of lawsuits, pharma companies are quick to withdraw drugs from the market if serious side-effects surface. This has happened with a number of efficient drugs, such as rimonabant, an appetite suppressant that was pulled from the market in Europe for increased suicide risk. Even though the drug worked for a lot of people, Sanofi-Aventis saw that keeping the drug on the market wasn't worth the risk.

      The issue of side-effects may be resolved with the aid of pharmacogenetics, which will hopefully help identify the capacity of patients to benefit from a drug and tolerate its side-effects. Then it wouldn't matter if we have drugs on the market that cause ill effects to a certain group of people, because doctors would be able to cross-reference a patient's genome for genetic polymorphisms with regard to a drug, and only prescribe drugs with known side-effects to patients that can handle them.

    4. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by bill_kress · · Score: 4, Interesting

      People have a really bizarre inability to really accept things outside their experience.

      For children, when they start driving, they think they are unstoppable. The drive fast or drink and drive simply because they have not personally seen the consequences.

      After a while, you start seeing how much you can get hurt if you jump from a roof into a pool and you start thinking twice, but until then nothing can stop you.

      Instead of hiding smoking or pretending it was OK, my mom tried to quit repeatedly, complained about how pathetic and weak she was, how they controlled her and how she couldn't stop spending money on them. She stopped for a year once, but went back. I think I can remember at least 6 serious efforts to stop, but in the end it killed her.

      If you could really grok that before you picked up your first cigarette, you would be physically incapable of smoking it.

      We like to think that we make our own decisions and we do so with the information we have in a way that benefits us, but really we are manipulated easily. FOX news knows how to pull the strings of a type of person to manipulate their feelings, chemical addictions can completely and deeply change how you feel about many things, etc.

      The point is, these people say it's a quality of life issue simply because they aren't able to comprehend the fact that they could die tomorrow.

      If someone were able to actually say with certainty that "if you keep taking that pill, you will die in 2 weeks, otherwise you will live for 15 years", they would stop. From there it's just a matter of odds.

      Hell, what if they said "If you keep taking that pill, you will die in 10 years, otherwise you will die in 15"? Well, right now some might actually say "I'll keep taking it", speaking for that person in 9 3/4 years who may answer VERY differently-- again a human inability to logically analyze the situation and come to an honest conclusion.

    5. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by HiThere · · Score: 4, Informative

      Vioxx wasn't specifically anti-arthritis. It was a Non-Steroid Anti-Inflammatory Drug. Like aspirin. But it only suppressed a part of the reactions that aspirin suppressed, so it didn't cause gastric distress. Unfortunately, it also had some other effects. If you didn't get them, then it was a reasonable drug.

      In a way it was rather like thalidomide. Only some people had the problem that caused it's recall, but the result was that nobody could use it. Not even terminal cancer patients. (For some terminal cancer patients, thalidomide was the only drug that would relieve their pain. But it was forbidden. Even if they were also male, and thus quite unlikely to get pregnant.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re:Big Pharma is evil, but... by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why should you tell me I can't gamble with it? Why should your opinion have more influence over my life than my own?

  9. Name... by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Philip K Dickhead sends in a piece from the Australian media, a couple of weeks old, that hasn't seen much discussion here.

    I'm not sure I'd like to discuss anything submitted by 'Philip K Dickhead'.

  10. "..but the company admitted no wrongdoing." by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does anyone else besides me see the common practice of coming to a settlement with no admission that the corporation did anything wrong is a really, really bad thing. I don't know if the fact that this is tacked on to every major settlement has to do with the fact that these corporations are massive concentrations of power and money that the legal systems aren't designed to deal with or if it's just greedy plaintiffs or a combination of both. If we could get companies to actually admit guilt in some of these cases, would it head off crap like this anyways?

  11. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Fast+Thick+Pants · · Score: 4, Funny

    Obviously we need more gay doctors.

  12. Re:How hard is PR? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "our profits are driving R&D for the next generation of drugs."

    They DO say that. They routinely say that when criticized about their astronomical profit margins. Problem is, it's a lie. R&D is an expense. Since when do you pay your corporate expenses out of your profits? Profits are counted AFTER expenses. Essentially they're trying to get their expenses counted twice.

    --
    This space available.
  13. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by RichardJenkins · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We've also all seen the classical antidepressant commercial. Some guy "hurts everywhere" and "everyone". Then he pops a couple cute little pills and "everywhere" and "everyone" magically stops hurting - whatever problems he may have had with his health or his career or his relationships or his dog are magically cured by those cute little pills.

    What? You guys really get ads like that in the States? I can't remember ever seeing an ad for prescription drugs - the very notion of advertising anti-depressants directly to consumers (particularly over the boob tube) is insane!

  14. Re:Oh boy by BitZtream · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm all for science and technology, but there is something to be said about putting too much faith in new drugs and treatments.

    I'm extremely skeptical of the HPV vaccine (GARDASIL) and completely against this retarded idea of inoculating every girl at the age of 13.

    If you know anything about their 'trials' for ensuring its safe you would be too.

    We simply do not know enough about the long term effects of these things to go around giving it to people without reason. With stupid states attempting to make it legislation to do so it scares the piss out of me.

    If we're talking about a drug that may save the life of someone with a known health issue, thats one thing, but giving people drugs for minor problems or giving people drugs for problems they don't yet have and can be avoided in other ways is just stupid until we have real world data NOT PROVIDED BY SOMEONE WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN THE SALE OF THE DRUG.

    If a person has cancer and a month to live and we have a treatment that will let them live another year but don't know the side effects I'm all for it.

    If a person hasn't got a health issue but live in an environment that they are sure to end up with a major health issue that makes their life expectancy extremely short, and we have a drug that will extend that life expectancy but may have effects after that, I'll consider it.

    If a person hasn't got a health issue, isn't really likely to end up with a health issue, and we really have no idea what the drug to prevent a health issue will do to them in 10 years or more, then you can fuck off if you want to inject me or mine with it until we have more data. You can give it to yours all you want, and if you happen to end up sterile then nature has done its job. Me and mine will feel sympathy for you, but we won't lose any sleep at night as yours die out.

    As I said, I love technology and the advances we've made, but I also know enough about the history of medicine to know that a lot of shit we've come up with isn't nearly as great as we once thought it was.

    A treatment for Malaria in mosqutoe infested jungles that has some side effects is good.

    Drinking irradiated water because it gives you 'energy and is refreshing' is insanely stupid.

    We've done both you know, and knew little of their side effects until well after they were in heavy use.

    --
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  15. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by future+assassin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My girlfriends family doctor is one of those doctors. She pushes anything that is pro pharma and has TONS of free samples for crazy amount of different drugs. When my girlfriend mentioned to her that I was looking to find a family doctor who was pro cannabis (Trying to get a license for my herniated disk) she got all up on my girlfriend how cannabis is bad and all that... but shes more then willing to give out some free pills for "beta' testing. Always wondered how much shes paid by the pharma companies.

    Another thing I don't understand is how anyone could take a pill that spends more then half of the tv commercial talking about how many side effects there are and that rare occasional deaths can occur. WTF?

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  16. Re:Drugs Are Bad, mmmkay? by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here is the conundrum:

    Pharmaceutical and other medical research companies in the US semi-routinely engage in questionable behavior, obviously a bad thing that is enabled by the existence of the Byzantine private healthcare market of the United States. Simultaneously, the vast majority of global medical research, 60-70%, is done in the US and is significantly enabled by the fact that you can recoup costs because the healthcare market is more competitive (albeit perversely) due to the semi-private nature of the market. It is one of the reasons many new medical treatments and diagnostics are available in the US first.

    So here is the problem: on one hand the US healthcare market is a byzantine mess where a lot of questionable practices can occur, but on the other hand this same mess also enables most of the world's medical innovation to occur. Much of the rest of the industrialized world is a free rider on the ugly mess that is US healthcare when it comes to innovation and R&D investment. It might be nice to adopt, say, European-style healthcare systems in theory, but can we afford it at the price of relative technological stagnation because all the profit motive has been removed from the development of that technology since the US is the last major market where a legitimate profit can be extracted?

    Profit motive is a double-edged sword, and in healthcare is no exception. But I think far too many people, particularly people used to socialized medicine, abhor the ugly side of such things while failing to recognize that they also benefit mightily from it. Even Americans benefit from it in some significant ways despite the unacceptably high costs, such as having the highest cancer survival rates in the world, markedly higher than many western industrialized countries. There needs to be a way to get the benefits without throwing out the innovation baby with the bathwater, which strictly socializing US medicine would do by all empirical evidence. The stark differences in the level of investment in medical advancements by various countries is hard to ignore, and I generally consider such investment to be a good thing.

  17. Re:Part of the problem by ColePEET · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does Vioxx cause death? Maybe. If the specific formulation of the drug is to blame then why are other drugs with virtually the same formulation still on the market with warnings? Why didn't those drugs also get removed from the market - with similar numbers of deaths behind them as well? Maybe? Virtually? The difference of ONE FUCKING MOLECULE is the difference between medicine and poison. So basically you are saying people clinging on to life with the tenacity that almost all humans display is the real cause of all the evils in the world. Man, I don't even know what to write, my mind recoils at the twistedness of this post. "It's a lottery and there are winners and losers. Merck lost. Too bad, I guess." Heres the problem right here, not old people. Its a lottery, every now and then the capitalist system needs someone to throw to the masses. Appease the plebs. Distract them from the fact that every company is 100% corrupt, by "catching" one of them every so often.

    --
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  18. Someone made the decision to make that hitlist. by ColePEET · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What about that? Who would have that authority at Merck? The CEO? The hit-list didn't just appear, it was a plan put into action. Who put it into action? Some one made a decision. The world needs to track down and execute the people who make these decisions.

    --
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  19. Re:Part of the problem by Tweenk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Until we start denying care to everyone over, say 50 years of age, the US will not be moving to any sort of "universal single-payer health care."

    Yeah, let's ignore human rights, the meaning humanity, and revert to what amounts to barbarism... This proposition reads like something taken straight from a dystopian novel. I'm not defending the fight for a few more months of life no matter the cost, but your idea is way overboard.

    --
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  20. Re:Oh boy by Kokuyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oversimplifying much? Today's medicine is way cool. One just has to make a difference between scientific medicine and corporate driven business.

  21. Re:How hard is PR? by BitZtream · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Its easy if they are, more often than not their profits drive salaries of executives.

    Universities are often the ones driving research and innovation, which promptly gets patented by companies like Merck and Glaxo.

    Its funny, I pay taxes so things can be researched, and then I lose the right to control the items I paid to research.

    --
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  22. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    (Anon because I've modded.) In Canada ads for prescription drugs are allowed, but only if they don't mention what the drug is for. This leads to subtle innuendo, like Viagra ads with telephone poles and fence posts everywhere. Antidepressent commercials invariably show happy people having picnics and pushing their kids on a swing for 20 seconds, followed by the list of side effects and the phrase "Ask your doctor about today!"

  23. All Ex Cheerleaders by copponex · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friend of mine was a rep for a larger company. She was an ex college cheerleader and they picked her up straight out of college, and with bonuses, she was making close to 80k in her second year. This didn't include all the expenses her company paid for - car, housing, gas, expense accounts for taking clients to dinner. And according to her, she was not unique in her history as a cheerleader, or her pay grade.

    I saw the analytical software she had to gauge her performance against others in her region. It was mind-boggling how much data she had, how many prescriptions had been written by which doctor, doctors who hadn't purchased her brands yet, growth rates... and that seemed to be just the tip of the iceberg. But nowhere, nowhere did it tell her if patients had recovered or not, or if any of them had passed away. If they were dead, it was just the loss of one prescription.

    She always talked about competing for growth rates, and the bonuses that it included. Basically, doctors who sold a lot of drugs were invited to gatherings in the Caribbean, expenses paid of course, where all of the top sales reps would also be enjoying the conference as well.

    The whole thing was really sickening. I talked to one doctor that said he felt pressured to prescribe pills, not necessarily by the drug companies, but by his patients. They come in, malnourished, overweight, smoking, and not getting any exercise, and ask for help with their cholesterol. What he should tell them is that they need to stop smoking, prescribe an hour of exercise a day, and a new diet. Instead, he writes them a script, is one step closer to getting a free vacation, and his patients get to continue abusing themselves guilt free.

    This is one of the many reasons we need to move to a system where the incentive is to keep people healthy instead of keeping them sick. As the baby boomers continue to age, this dogmatic adherence to the "free market" could quite possibly bankrupt us.

    1. Re:All Ex Cheerleaders by bendodge · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Uh, it's not a free market. It's run by insurance and pharmaceutical companies. People have a remarkable way of managing their money better than other people's. If people were paying their own money for drugs instead of an employer's insurance or tax-funded nets, they'd make a remarkably larger effort to stay healthy and spend less on treatments.

      See hospitals in India, Singapore, and Thailand staffed by American doctors that actually compete for patients from around the world. They're booming because they're mostly free of bureaucracy and are very open about their mortality, infection, and error rates. That's how healthcare should work.

      --
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    2. Re:All Ex Cheerleaders by copponex · · Score: 3, Informative

      I know. That's why the "free" is in quotes. Whenever you hear someone talk about how the market should be free, they usually mean, free to allow powerful interests engage in anti-competitive practices. That's how taxpayers end up subsidizing private providers of Medicare, because they can't compete with government provided services of comparable quality. It isn't "fair" that they aren't allowed to make money, so we should keep the market "free."

      Interestingly, it looks like India's health care system, a mix of private and public initiatives, is doing very poorly compared to the universal system in Singapore. India's healthcare system is not providing good service for their population, so I don't know why you consider it evidence of the "free" market working it's magic. According to Wikipedia, "Most public health facilities lack efficiency, are understaffed and have poorly maintained or outdated medical equipment." It's no secret that rich people can get good health care, it's just that most western people are very rich when they're shopping in India.

    3. Re:All Ex Cheerleaders by Arancaytar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If people were paying their own money for drugs instead of an employer's insurance or tax-funded nets, they'd make a remarkably larger effort to stay healthy and spend less on treatments.

      While some aspects of industrial disease are caused by overindulgence in luxury, it doesn't follow that healthy living is always cheaper than unhealthy living. You will not be able to pressure the poor into living healthier by making them pay for their own healthcare. All you would do is kill them.

  24. Re:Oh boy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The HPV vaccine is there to combat THE LEADING CAUSE OF CANCER DEATHS IN WOMEN.

    Actually no, it's there to combat the leading cause of cancer deaths in women (cervical cancer) and some close contenders.

    Cervical cancers that can strike and kill 20-year-olds depriving them of 50 good years of life. HPV related cervical cancers that strike and estimated 10,000 women a year (on the low end) in the US. How many times deadlier is that than Iraq and Afghanistan?

    I think it's much closer to mosquito control in it's potential positive impact than irradiated water. If you were listening to objective sources who spoke as loud and stridently as the anti-vax sources (or anti-woman church sources) you would easily see that. But somehow you have allowed yourself to be deceived and are passing that crime along.

  25. Duh ? by aepervius · · Score: 4, Informative

    Long term effect of vaccination ? How about the same as long term effect as other vaccination ? You are not introducing PERMANENTLY something in the system, the vaccination product may well be flushed rather quickly out of the system. You are teaching the immune system to react to a specific part of what youa re immunizing against. I am not a biologist, but looks to me you are confusing long term effect of a chemical in the body (like for example AZT) with long term effect of the immune system being able to recognize a foreign host...

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  26. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by MrMarket · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously we need more gay doctors.

    Why? To create more jobs for more gay PhRMA reps?

  27. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by tsa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My brother's GF was a representative for a pharma company for a few years. She is quite good-looking, which helps in achieving your targets of course. She always had a trunk full of expensive gifts like coffee machines and other stuff to give to doctors to promote medicines. When I told her that in normal Dutch this is called bribery she was mad at me and told her the doctors actually have to do a lot to get those things. They have to give the company data on how the patients react to the drugs, something that the secretary can get out of her computer with a few keystrokes. Hard work indeed, for the doctor. Those doctors were also often invited to a tropical paradise to see presentations about new medicines. Of course they didn't have to pay for those trips.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  28. Reminds me of Michael Clayton by moxley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This sort of thing reminds me of the way the company in "Michael Clayton" behaves, (great film BTW).

    I wiah that sort of thing was a fantasy and that it could be said that such things are exaggerations and never happen - but when it come to millions or billions of dollars at stake these multinational companies are sometimes willing to do extremely unethical things, including murder - we certainly have seen cases of attempts to cover up negligence where numerous people have been killed as a result of faulty products.

    Even if Merck didn't actually have anybody killed here, and even if they claim that isn't what they meant by "neutralize," - destroying someone's life and credibility because they are trying to tell the world the truth about what their research has shown is just about as bad.

    As corporations and governments are becoming more intertwined I expect we'll see more of this.

    It seems like sociopaths tend to make it far in corporate society - something about being able to do what it takes to rise to that level in the cutthroat world of business seems to fit the the sociopathic personality.

    Any company that gets caught doing this sort of thing, even if it's found out after the fact should be destroyed - it's assets should be divided properly among shareholders and employees who are clean of any taint from such a scandal....

  29. Never heard that one before. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't sense much bias in your comment, (for which you are to be congratulated), but I do take exception with some of your statements.

    Living in Canada, I've known numerous older people, (over 60) who receive excellent health care. Elaborate heart surgeries and such. Nobody seems to think that they're being given second rate care or that preferential treatment is being given to younger people. I've never even heard that idea floated until you brought it up just now. My grandfather is in his 80's and two years ago he was treated successfully for cancer. He's still quite active for a very old dude, and he has a lot of respect for his doctors.

    Just FYI.

    -FL

    1. Re:Never heard that one before. by dr2chase · · Score: 2, Informative

      True. But happily, there is data, and the data says that the expected lifespan in Canada is 4 years longer than it is in the US, the infant mortality rate (deaths per 1000) is 5.1 instead of 6.3, yet they spend $2000 less per capita, and instead of spending 15.4% of GDP on healthcare, they spend 9.8%.

      There's your data -- the Canadian system is better. Your friend's dead uncle is just an anecdote. Perhaps the surgery he 'needed' was highly unlikely to extend his life.

  30. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The US, and until recently, NZ, were the only countries in the world where you are allowed to advertise a prescription medication. It, of course, leads to the absurdity of "Ask your doctor about {drug}" style ads, not "Discuss with your doctor the symptoms of your ailment", of course not. So people go into their doctors, "So I saw this ad, and I matched a couple of the things they mentioned, "feeling tired, run down"... "so can you write me a script for {drug}".

    Mind blowing. Unbridled capitalism at its finest.

  31. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by DirtyCanuck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless you are of course, watching an American channel being broadcast in Canada. Which makes up a large portion of stations we have available.

    Signs you are watching American Channel:

    1. Drug propaganda public service announcements.
    2. Anti Abortion commercials
    3. Pharmaceutical commercials, with death as a side effect (laugh every time).
    4. Some sort of community college commercial with some overly average guy yelling at you to go to school.
    5. Really, really bad local commercials (Halloween Costume Warehouse).
    6. Really dark and even disturbing commercials that turn out to be some politician bashing another (often not realizing until end of commercial)
    7. Do you have BAD CREDIT, well we have got a number for you....
    8. Fast Food
    9. Walmart

  32. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We've also all seen the classical antidepressant commercial. Some guy "hurts everywhere" and "everyone". Then he pops a couple cute little pills and "everywhere" and "everyone" magically stops hurting - whatever problems he may have had with his health or his career or his relationships or his dog are magically cured by those cute little pills.

    Never felt more betrayed than by the cold and flu ads. They show someone miserable at night but he pops the meds and the next morning he doesn't even look like he's been sick! I know damn well the super model beer commercial fantasy is more likely to happen than that!

    I remember puking my guts out in the early morning and feeling shocked that the pharmaceutical companies would lie to us so brazenly in the commercials. Then I realized just how sick I must be to find this surprising.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  33. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by peektwice · · Score: 2, Funny

    Did you just say she had junk in the trunk?

    --
    Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
  34. Sounds like Scientology Tactics by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    'We may need to seek them out and destroy them where they live,' a Merck employee wrote.

    He must have been a Scientologist because that sounds almost exactly like what CoS directs and encourages its members to do when faced with external criticism ala their "fair game" policies (which they claim to have repealed, but in practice still regularly employ to aggrivate, defame, and harass their critics). The Corporation was right, this is the behavior of a psychopath.

  35. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Hurricane78 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, there are things that you can't ingest as fast as you would need for it to kill you.

    I guess, even though your comment is anecdotal, that it's somewhat similar to Stevia. A sweetener made from a plant. It's used by American natives for thousands of years.
    To get to the point: Monsanto, makers of the cancerous Aspartame (who else? ^^), ordered a study. The result was, that you could become sterile from it. (Stay with me.)
    What they did not really put their emphasis on, was that the amount you had to eat, for it to be any dangerous, would be half of your body weight. Every single day.
    Try that with salt. ^^ Or even with water! (Yes. Too much water can kill you too. Same as not enough of it.)
    Or, well, pot. :)

    You know where I'm going with this...

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  36. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by dov_0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ever heard of anyone dying from an overdose of pot? Falling asleep, eating until bloated, thirsty enough to drink the pacific ocean dry, yes. Dying... never! :-)

    Dying, no. Long term problems with short-term memory and concentration, yes. Loss of initiative and drive, yes. Psychosis, family break-down, incarceration in a psychiatric facility, panic disorder, depression, suicide attempts, broken relationships, unemployment. Yes. Actually that pretty well sums up the largish circle of people I used to smoke marijuana with and as far as I can tell, they were all pretty average, normal people before they started on dope. Ten years after I quit I still have serious problems with my memory.

    Many people like to say that Marijuana is harmless and not like other drugs as it is natural. Well, Arsenic and Cyanide are natural as well. It seems that the main problem with Marijuana is that THC, the main drug in Gunja isn't water soluble like most drugs that wash out of the system. It's soluble in fats and oils, so it hangs around in fat cells in the body for many years to come. Your brain is 30% fatty tissue...

    --
    sudo mount --milk --sugar /cup/tea /mouth /etc/init.d/relax start
  37. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Ceiynt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I fired my old family doctor of about 10 years because I started to see he was nothing but a shill for the drug compaines. He'd spend less then 5 minutes in the room with you, give you a hand full of samples of the latest, greatest whatever. I brought in a list of drugs that Wal-Mart sells for $4 and a list of what my insurence covers, none of his samples were on the list, so he wouldn't prescribe those. Lo and behold, the samples are the ones that are still patent protected, and cost $500 for a weeks worth.
    One of the doctors left the practice because she didn't like his style of medicine. I now go to her practice, which she runs with her husband. She has signs in the exam rooms and the lobby that state "Please do not ask for drug samples, as we do not accept them from the pharmicutical companies. Samples increase the price for everyone and are not free. The doctor will discuss with you the right medicine for the right problem, and will try to prescribe generics if at all possible."
    I like it now that my family doctor really does practice medicine instead of playing the corporate shill and handing out the flavor of the month.

  38. Re:Oh boy by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative

    One you get the disease the vaccine won't do any good. That is why they are giving it to girls that are young enough that most of them have never ever had unprotected sex (no Utah jokes please).
    It took many years to develop and test.

  39. Here is the scary part by kilodelta · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are tons of drugs out there where pharma has suppressed negative research. Recall if you will the drug phenylpropanolamine aka Dimettap. Worked great on me, but I'm male. It had a nasty habit of killing women who were in that age bracket where they were most fecund. How many years did it take for that drug to get yanked off the market?

  40. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With all of the marketing for drugs out there, I'm starting to feel left out that I don't take any.

    Also, I'm wondering if all of the marketing for drugs is really necessary. I mean, if a drug does it's job particularly well, it will be prescribed by physicians and people will pay for it. It falls into a different category than the beer commercial right after it - I can go out and readily buy beer on a whim and it's totally legal. If I wanted to do the same thing with prescription drugs, it would be more costly and time-consuming to do it all above board and legally.

    Does the public really need to be conscious of the existence of certain prescription drugs? Probably not.

    --
    The game.
  41. Re:Part of the problem by Chryana · · Score: 4, Informative

    For some reason, all these countries which have socialized medicine and which will let older people die without treatment all seem to be ahead as far as life expectancy goes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
    US is at rank 45 behind Japan, Canada and pretty much all of Europe.
    I can't speak about the elderly visiting the US to get treatment, but I can tell you that I was in Tijuana, on the border to the US last year, and I saw firsthand that the medical industry seems very prominent in that city. I think you can reach the same conclusion that I came to when I observed this, although I have to admit I have no further data to back my suppositions.

  42. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by bitt3n · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another thing I don't understand is how anyone could take a pill that spends more then half of the tv commercial talking about how many side effects there are and that rare occasional deaths can occur. WTF?

    Sleeper Effect

  43. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Tis a nice double standard, when you look at it. "It's a global market" scream the corporations, "if we can get labor cheaper in Mexico/China/Eastern Europe, we should be able to!". "It's a global market," scream the people, "if we can get our pharmaceuticals cheaper in Canada, the UK, Mexico, we should be able to!". "No, you shouldn't. And we'll lobby to make it illegal, under the guise of quality control, even if you are buying the exact same drug."

  44. Insane for whom? by xant · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's certainly not insane for the drug companies. You can put pressure directly on your doctor to get the drug that the teevee says will cure you. If he's ethical and doesn't comply (when the treatment isn't appropriate), well, there's plenty of other doctors. They'll comply out of apathy, or because it has a direct payoff in perks from drug companies.

    It's a totally rational strategy for drug companies.

    --
    It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
  45. Re:Be Skeptical of Drug Company "Scientific" Claim by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 3, Informative

    makers of the cancerous Aspartame

    Not according to the FDA or ACSH. But at least The Holistic Healing Web Page is of that belief. In general, you should beware of medical advice that has its origins in fowarded emails.

  46. Why Aren't We Hearing This from The MSM? by srobert · · Score: 2, Funny

    This just can't be true. We'd have heard it reported on CBS, NBC, or Fox if it were. Right?