Slashdot Mirror


Developing World Is a Profit Sink For Web Companies

The NYTimes is running a piece on the dilemma faced by Web entrepreneurs, particularly in social media companies: the developing world is spiking traffic but not contributing much to revenues. The basic disconnect when Web 2.0 business models meet Africa, Latin America, and the Middle East is that countries there are not good prospects for the advertisers who pay the bills. "Call it the International Paradox. Web companies that rely on advertising are enjoying some of their most vibrant growth in developing countries. But those are also the same places where it can be the most expensive to operate, since Web companies often need more servers to make content available to parts of the world with limited bandwidth. And in those countries, online display advertising is least likely to translate into results. ... Last year, Veoh, a video-sharing site operated from San Diego, decided to block its service from users in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe, citing the dim prospects of making money and the high cost of delivering video there. 'I believe in free, open communications,' Dmitry Shapiro, the company's chief executive, said. 'But these people are so hungry for this content. They sit and they watch and watch and watch. The problem is they are eating up bandwidth, and it's very difficult to derive revenue from it.' ... Perhaps no company is more in the grip of the international paradox than YouTube, which [an analyst] recently estimated could lose $470 million in 2009, in part because of the high cost of delivering billions of videos each month."

203 comments

  1. Part of the online video problem . . . by cashman73 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, that explains part of the reason why online videos are really only available legally (e.g. hulu, veoh, etc) in the U.S. But I still think that they could easily make money on advertising by offering the same videos that are in the U.S. to countries like Canada, the U.K., most of Europe, Japan, etc,...

    1. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by jsoderba · · Score: 5, Informative

      The reason that Hulu is only available in the US is that international TV licensing is a nightmarish legal morass from which no man emerges fully sane.

    2. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think that there are two distinct phenomena at work here.

      "US only" or "Canada Only" and "EU or some subset only" are almost certainly products of wrangling over distribution rights and/or various wrinkles in different countries' compulsory licensing schemes. While those are likely to slowly come down in the long term, they don't have much to do with how profitable various regions are.

      The second factor, discussed in TFA, would lead more to "US/Canada/EU/etc. only" or "no third world" and is pretty much exclusively economic in motivation. Clearing the rights isn't an issue with the mass of amateur youtube uploads and the like; but costs of delivery are (at best) constant across the world(at worst, they are likely to be rather higher in poorer areas) and expected revenue certainly isn't constant.

      I'll be interested to see if Youtube and the various other *tubes and knockoffs start to offer schemes whereby outfits who want their stuff available outside of the usual geographic areas (ie. propaganda groups for various banned NGOs, governments in exile, and the like) can pay to have them made available. I suspect that that might be attractive; but it might also become useless pretty quickly. If a video service, say, is extremely popular among good upstanding citizens of the regime, who use it to exchange funny cat videos and blooper reels, banning it will be unpopular. If a video service is virtually inaccessible, save for a bunch of videos sponsored by banned/unpopular groups, great firewalling it is a political no-brainer.

    3. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by jeillah · · Score: 1

      I don't think that you can consider Canada, the UK, Japan etc. developing countries. I'm sure the ad men do quite well in those countries. It is locals like India, Africa, most of Asia where there is a mostly poor population utilizing bandwidth that is disproportionate to the ad dollars that audience supports.

    4. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! I mean, look at that one dude's tie, everyone KNOWS that you're supposed to wear a humble one-color drab tie when you're picking up your welfare check. Who does that lazy prick think he is, wearing a polka dot tie when he obviously (cause he's black, right?) doesn't have a job...

      LOL. You're just pissed because it's far more probable that the people in the video have better jobs than you do, drive better cars and know how to get customer service to take notice.

      On a more positive note, butthurt racists are the funniest kind of racists, so kudos to you, Mr Rationalizing Whitetrash!

    5. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by cypherwise · · Score: 1

      There are certainly a lot of factors at work. That said, are there YouTube versions in some of the developing third world or second world countries? I agree that limiting the distribution to subset of countries definitely opens the door for local video sites. Or what about YouTube or Veoh actually expanding to serve the other markets that way the ad model could be better adjusted to serve the local market?

    6. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I suspect that localization could help a bit in terms of serving more relevant ads(if nothing else, local outfits or local branches of worldwide outfits will have cheaper staff in poorer areas); but I'm not sure that there is any solid solution to the problem.

      The economics of ad-supported video in the first world seem to be teetering on the edge of "faith based" as it is, and there is no way that advertisements served to people with lower per capita incomes are going to be more valuable than advertisements served to people with higher per capita incomes. Poorer markets are also likely to have fewer people running their systems 24/7 on broadband, which makes the various decentralized alternatives less attractive.

    7. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by keeboo · · Score: 1

      are there YouTube versions in some of the developing third world or second world countries?

      "second world"? What the heck you're talking about?
      The Cold War era is gone, do you believe is that some kind of development score so 1st word > 2nd world > 3rd world?

      Nowadays people talk about "developed" and "developing" countries (and even that is argueable).

    8. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could all be in wog languages and things like that.

    9. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Which is why the internet has to be classed as its own region.

    10. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by davester666 · · Score: 1

      YouTube could cut their views in half if they get rid of that Rick Astley video...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    11. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfornately not much different here. We can not stream what we air on the web because of not having a license for the music!

    12. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I still think that they could easily make money on advertising by offering the same videos that are in the U.S. to countries like Canada, the U.K., most of Europe, Japan, etc,...

      You fail to see the point.
      The point is that advertisement in those countries is not converted into people buying more products from the advertiZERS...
      Why do you think entities pay to show their advertisement? Just to support some or the other website? No, they do it to SELL MORE of their wares. If that does not happen, they will stop advertising with you.

      Economics 101... look into it...

  2. BBC Videos by Warlord88 · · Score: 1

    I was wondering from a long time whey videos on the BBC site cannot be accessed from here in India. Is this the reason?

    1. Re:BBC Videos by lordandmaker · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's more down to the BBC being funded by TV Licensing.

    2. Re:BBC Videos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      As others have mentioned from a US perspective, this is due to licencing. The BBC licences programs for distribution in the UK only (even from other parts of the BBC).

    3. Re:BBC Videos by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      I don't think so: most of the time I can't access BBC videos, although I live in Finland.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    4. Re:BBC Videos by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Informative

      The things that the BBC produces in house are usually sold to other countries with a local exclusivity agreement for the buyer. They're contractually barred from showing them there by that side of the agreement as well.

    5. Re:BBC Videos by momfreeek · · Score: 1

      The BBC doesn't run any advertising at all so there is even less incentive to make the content freely available outside the UK.

    6. Re:BBC Videos by momfreeek · · Score: 1

      This is kind of missing the point. The BBC doesn't make any money from advertising so it's content is only made freely available to those who have already paid for it (UK licence payers).

    7. Re:BBC Videos by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Um, yes they do. They don't in the UK, but whenever I watch BBC America I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing commercials at various points. Although it's been a while since I watched anything on it.

      How else are they going to pay for the content? In the UK there's that infamous tax, but outside of the UK there isn't a similar tax so something has to give.

    8. Re:BBC Videos by sopssa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Finland actually counts as tier 3 country in internet advertising (revenue) perspective. Only lower countries are the likes of Iraq and Iran and African countries. Tier two is usually german, france and so and tier 1 is usa, uk and canada.

    9. Re:BBC Videos by momfreeek · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I didn't know they broadcast in the US themselves. Ofc they've got to play by your rules there. There's a seperate website for the US too it seems.

    10. Re:BBC Videos by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What about those like me who live in another country but pay for a cable package including BBC? Presumably the cable company is passing some of the money on.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:BBC Videos by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Thanks. You in Finland, too?

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    12. Re:BBC Videos by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      They can already detect if you're outside the UK. Instead of just blocking you, why couldn't they splice an ad on instead?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:BBC Videos by momfreeek · · Score: 1

      They must have forgotten to put the videos on your version of the website.

    14. Re:BBC Videos by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The reason they can't is because either they have sold exclusive rights to show thier content in that country or they would like to retain the ability to do so.

      Selling exclusive rights to show programs in a particular country is one of the BBCs main sources of revenue afaict.

      There is also the bandwidth issue. Afaict the BBC get thier UK bandwidth free or low code through peering arrangements. Foreign bandwidth OTOH would cost real money.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  3. Time = Money, Right? by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes, this is a very difficult thing to overcome with providing content--especially high bandwidth content like video.

    But maybe the third world should be looked at more like consumers with a lot of time and little money? I know it's horribly ridiculous for me to think that I work more than a poor Chinese man working 15 hours a day because I don't. But if you want to think of it as a viable market, these people have time to offer a business. So the obstacle becomes not how we can get them to click on our Amazon.com link and buy overpriced shoes like we do with fatass Americans (calm down, I am one)? But instead how can we ask them to perform some very menial task on the computer with a reward of our services?

    So maybe your company would like image or video corpora tagged with words in a different language and background of a different culture? Those are becoming more of an asset. Or perhaps you want to boost a wiki in a particular language? Or perhaps you could offer premiums on translations and bother to attempt teach them a second language through cheap software? Ontology building services? Or treating each small region as a zone by population and blocking IPs until someone or some team completes rent-a-coder like challenges? Then you could host their name(s) on sites where people now have access as a kind of local hero style recognition? I mean, there are a number of things you could do with simple peer review that would keep a steady income of services which equate to time from these people. Some are more realistic than others. Who knows, you could inadvertently better their lives by doing some of the above?

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Time = Money, Right? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, none of your proposals provide a way for money (however small an amount it may be) to flow from the users to the advertisers/corporations/web site operators.
      Which is the main problem outlined.

    2. Re:Time = Money, Right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But instead how can we ask them to perform some very menial task on the computer with a reward of our services?

      It's called captcha-busting, and they'll do it for 1./10 of 1 cent per captcha. In other words, it helps fuel spam.

    3. Re:Time = Money, Right? by zarkill · · Score: 1

      If you put the users to work, you "get" the value of the work they're performing in exchange for your content. It might not be "money", but you might be getting enough value from their menial tasks that it could be worth your while.

    4. Re:Time = Money, Right? by EatHam · · Score: 0

      Ontology building services?

      I am not sure there is a big market for cancer construction.

    5. Re:Time = Money, Right? by TheNarrator · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How about a new model based on transparency!

      You could have a infographic on the top of the website called the "bandwidth cost bar". Every day it starts at the top and slowly works its way down based on the amount of bandwidth the provider is able to pay for based on the revenue to the site for that day. If one clicks on it there will be a detailed breakdown of who they are paying for bandwidth, how much they are using and how much it costs and a top level summary of revenue and expenses.

      The bar slowly gets used up until its completely used up for the day and then there are no more videos and all pages redirect to the same page explaining that all the bandwidth for the day has been used up and customers did not buy enough stuff so they had to shut down for the day.

    6. Re:Time = Money, Right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Click fraud!

    7. Re:Time = Money, Right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has been done - it is how captchas were broken.

    8. Re:Time = Money, Right? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      It might be interesting to build a simple interface for mapping Mechanical Turk jobs to video access.

      Video service has a Mechanical Turk account. Video site has list of Mechanical Turk jobs that you can do on the account's behalf. Once your execution of the job is approved by the job poster, you get viewing credit proportional to the value of the job.

      It would be rather crude, and a lot of Mechanical Turk stuff is rather language dependent; but writing some glue to stitch together a couple of existing entities would likely be fairly simple.

    9. Re:Time = Money, Right? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True. But, for instance, translation to their local language, for thier population, still gains you nothing back in financial terms.
      Yes, you've gotten the value of work from them, but in real terms...nothing has flowed back to your pocket. The service they have performed is mostly useless to those who CAN and do pay.

      Like advertising to dedicated music 'pirates'. They're not going to (or can't) buy from you anyway, so any resources devoted to them is money down the drain.

      At some point, it has to be Money = money.

    10. Re:Time = Money, Right? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Half a billion dollars in micro translation, click fraud, link farming, and captch busting services?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    11. Re:Time = Money, Right? by inviolet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But maybe the third world should be looked at more like consumers with a lot of time and little money?

      They have little money because their time does not produce anything particularly valuable. And a culture must produce before it can consume. Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, there are no poor consumers.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    12. Re:Time = Money, Right? by PMBjornerud · · Score: 1

      But instead how can we ask them to perform some very menial task on the computer with a reward of our services?

      So maybe your company would like image or video corpora tagged with words in a different language and background of a different culture? Those are becoming more of an asset. Or perhaps you want to boost a wiki in a particular language? Or perhaps you could offer premiums on translations and bother to attempt teach them a second language through cheap software?

      The embodiment of optimism.

      You are so amazingly right. Make them do something valuable with their time and use Internet to distribute wealth more fair.

      Unfortunately, examples of "very menial tasks" are:
      - Gold farming
      - Captcha answering

      The problem is to find a task that benefits humanity, can be broken up and solved by people with little education. At a higher wage than the shady competitors.

      If you can manage that, though, you should be raking in millions pretty soon.

      --
      I lost my sig.
    13. Re:Time = Money, Right? by bami · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there is an incentive, people will abuse it.

      File sharing websites already do this, sort of. You want it for free?
      watch our advertisements for 15-120 seconds.
      You want more for free?
      Come back later.

      You want to skip advertisements?
      Buy a premium account.

      Then there are the people with loads of time on their hands, and start abusing the free service.
      First based on exploits (javascript hacking, captcha breaking etc).
      So they step up the requirements, making it more of a chore for other people.

      Most of the time, if somebody gives me a rapidshare link or something of that sort, I say screw that.
      People want to be entertained NOW, instead of doing stupid stuff.

      The interweb is slowly becoming a MMO, and I'm sure most people just say "screw that, I'll take my stuff somewhere else".

    14. Re:Time = Money, Right? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Yes indeed, because it's not like us in America have been living based largely upon borrowed money.

    15. Re:Time = Money, Right? by TheLink · · Score: 2

      And some have _relatively_ little money because they make _cheap_ stuff for the rich westerners.

      When you are a factory worker in a Chinese factory making RC cars that are sold for USD4 per piece, you can't earn big bucks in US terms.

      You might earn more in local terms. While 4 US dollars might not be much in the USA, it could buy 5 or 6 meals in China.

      Meals might be subsidized/provided by the factory too.

      Hard life perhaps, but seems a lot of people in China would rather do that than work in a farm (unless it's a farm on WoW :) ).

      Yes many would prefer to be earning "big bucks" working for Starbucks in the USA, but I doubt the USA wants to let them in to do that.

      Lastly while we in the "cheaper world" might not be producing anything particularly valuable, what's produced still does have some value - otherwise it wouldn't be selling in Walmart, newegg, Amazon, etc.

      --
    16. Re:Time = Money, Right? by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      Image tagging is a menial task that could benefit a lot of people.

    17. Re:Time = Money, Right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, but you're spending _future_ production :)

      Fortunately, there are countries [like China] and private investors who [continue to] believe that this hypothetical value will one day be realized unto them...

    18. Re:Time = Money, Right? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Yes many (Chinese) would prefer to be earning "big bucks" working for Starbucks in the USA, but I doubt the USA wants to let them in to do that."

      That's just because we don't share a border with them.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    19. Re:Time = Money, Right? by tripmine · · Score: 1

      Kinda like the The Merch

    20. Re:Time = Money, Right? by rezza · · Score: 1

      The interweb is slowly becoming a MMO

      The interweb was the original MMO.

  4. Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Ed+Avis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The obvious answer is to distribute videos and other bandwidth-heavy content through a peer-to-peer mechanism such as Bittorrent. Then the users themselves take care of providing your extra server capacity. I guess it just needs a Bittorrent client written in Flash (ugh), or else built into the browser, with the site's main server acting as the first seed for each file.

    --
    -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    1. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The obvious answer is to distribute videos and other bandwidth-heavy content through a peer-to-peer mechanism such as Bittorrent. Then the users themselves take care of providing your extra server capacity. I guess it just needs a Bittorrent client written in Flash (ugh), or else built into the browser, with the site's main server acting as the first seed for each file.

      That's unlikely to work, at least in anything like bittorrent's current form, because these users don't own their own computers and network connections. Based on my experiences in a couple of 3rd world countries, I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of these users are at internet cafes - they spend the local equivalent of a couple of quarters for a couple hours and then the next user gets on. Few torrents of any significant size are going to complete in that short of a space of time.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by CookedGryphon · · Score: 1

      It would be perfect if the much talked about Video element supported p2p streaming. It can't be that hard to set up either, you have a definitive list of everyone who is watching the video at the time so tracking should be easy. The only problem I can see is getting the end of the video, when people who have finished watching close their browser and don't upload their fair share of the end of the video.

      Even if it's not perfect, it would take a lot of the burden off these sites, hopefully enough to make it worth their while to host.

      This would also be a boon for smaller innovative sites which want to host videos but can't afford the bandwidth.

    3. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by ivoras · · Score: 1

      The single major problem with p2p-like video streaming is bandwidth reliability. The canonical problem is: a peer you've been downloading the stream quits watching in the middle of it - your stream of course stops then and there until another peer can be found (now multiply this with possibly hundreds of peers supplying you with patches of the whole content). It seems that the only way around it is to force clients that have started streaming to finish them and to force them to seed. Of course, then the total bandwidth consumption goes way up.

      --
      -- Sig down
    4. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by inasity_rules · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I live in a 3rd world country, and I'll tell you that internet cafes here mostly do not have the bandwidth for such. Most people do it from work. Most of us here are still on dial up or equivalent. Even at most companies/universities, you have to get in at off-peak ours to be able to watch youtube.

      Even so, it is not uncommon for people in the towns to own (obsolete) computers (P3 era and up).

      That being said, I'm not sure how typical the basket case of Africa is.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    5. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      My experience is limited to asia where music and video streaming at the cafes is pretty common and most of the people in the cafes don't have jobs with internet access or PCs at home.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    6. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm actually suprised no one has mentioned more caching by ISPs.

    7. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by nathan.fulton · · Score: 1

      Or you could just use Pirate B... oh, right.

    8. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by dejanc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Based on my experiences in a couple of 3rd world countries, I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of these users are at internet cafes - they spend the local equivalent of a couple of quarters for a couple hours and then the next user gets on.

      "3rd world country" is a very wide definition, but I live in one of those country where we pull a lot of content but don't click on ads.

      Here in Serbia, many people have good enough broadband connection, either at work or home, to watch a lot of videos.

      However, we have no incentive whatsoever to click most of the ads. Paypal doesn't work here, and I wouldn't trust our post to ship any goods anyway. Also, most of the stuff to buy online (like premium memberships) are way too expensive for most of us.

      I think countries like this are the problem, not the real 3rd world where hardly anyone has the bandwidth to watch videos and download music.

    9. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Acer500 · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's unlikely to work, at least in anything like bittorrent's current form, because these users don't own their own computers and network connections.

      It is true that there are a lot more net cafés over here (here = Uruguay, South America) than in the US on average, but at least over here, 1/3rd of the population owns a computer (that includes children and elderly), though a lot of those are OLPCs.

      "Broadband" (if it can be called that) would collapse, though, we're already quite strained as it is.

      Whatever happened to the multicast idea?

      BTW I saw a mention of SopCast somewhere in this thread, I second the idea...

      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    10. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Few torrents of any significant size are going to complete in that short of a space of time.

      What do you mean? Obviously, these files are small enough to download in a reasonable amount of time otherwise the users would not be able to watch them, no matter how they are downloaded. It is true that for web video, you don't want to wait for the whole file to download before it starts playing, whereas the current Bittorrent protocol downloads blocks in a fairly random order. (I think the randomization might be because people tend to close their Bittorrent client after downloading, which means the last block of the file would become the scarcest if it worked sequentially.) So that would need changing.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    11. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      I'll tell you that internet cafes here mostly do not have the bandwidth for such.

      In that case, surely, they do not have the bandwidth to view the videos anyway, Bittorrent or not. It's true that some upstream bandwidth is necessary whereas viewing a downloaded video just needs downstream bandwidth. But the upstream only needs to be within that country or local area - it would often be between two different PCs in the same internet cafe, which would be a net saving of bandwidth since a video watched by two users only needs to be fetched once from the wider Internet.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    12. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by xtracto · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I live in a 3rd world country, and I'll tell you that internet cafes here mostly do not have the bandwidth for such. Most people do it from work. Most of us here are still on dial up or equivalent. Even at most companies/universities, you have to get in at off-peak ours to be able to watch youtube.

      Even so, it is not uncommon for people in the towns to own (obsolete) computers (P3 era and up).

      I won't comment about the technology issues of delivering high bandwidth services on third world countires. Like it or not, such issues are slowly but steadily being overcome.

      However, one of the main points in the summary (yeah, I did not read the article, so sue me[or flame me]) is the *profitability* issue that comes with advertising.

      The problem is that as a high school mexican student, usually the ads you see when navigating through porn sites, facebook, hi5 or whatever page is "de moda", you usually see ads aimed at USA teens or at best aimed at a very general Mexican market.

      What they (web advertising companies, like google) need is some kind of tiered ads marketing mechanism which allows people from specific cities or states (like say Tijuana, La Paz [BCS] or say Santiago [Chile]) to buy ad time in the internet.

      This however should be done person to person, and as such, the ad company (like google) would need to have offices which receive the payments (and setup the ads) on each of the different cities close to the market.

      It will also be possible to implement a more automated system to achieve this (using something akin to prepaid cards) in which the product owner buys some "ads-time card" at Elektra and then sets up his advertisement using the card.

      I would be interested in performing such type of project (at least for Mexico, when the flu outbreak is over =oP) for a company like google, microsoft or others... If only they were listening

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    13. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That might work for all I know, but I see a potential problem. Relying on user bandwidth assumes the users have much in the way of bandwidth and can afford to use their own bandwidth for these issues. Of course, if the users in these third world countries had the money for great/cheap Internet infrastructure and bandwidth to spare, then they'd probably have the money to buy crap from ads, in which case none of this is a problem anyway.

    14. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by inasity_rules · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're right. In my life I've followed ad links less than ten times, and only once did it lead to a purchase(Intergrated Circuits).. There simply isn't all that money to be made from advertising in underdeveloped countries unless you can localise the adverts.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    15. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      I suspect my country is an extreme case, but you are right, viewing videos online in realtime here is rare. But I suspect a better solution would be to allow the local ISPs to set up a local mirror of the more popular portions of various sites. They would compete with each other to be able to do this - it means more customers if you offer a value added service like that. Local bandwidth here is virtually free(if you have DSL), but there is no local content worth viewing.

      Uploading only makes sense when your connection is fast enough that your up bandwidth does not slow your down bandwidth. And with a local mirror, large portions of the swarm won't disappear every time there is a (regular) power cut or other service interruption. ISPs have generators here, so their infrastructure is more robust.

      As I say my country is an extreme case. Your solution may work well in other third world countries.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    16. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by febuiles · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd love to know which third world countries you've visited, saying that 99.9% of the population connects through internet cafes just shows some ignorance from your part. Maybe we have to divide third world between "really undeveloped countries" (Western Africa) and "undeveloped countries" (Latin America, Middle East).

      Federico, a guy from Colombia (LA) with a standard 3Mb connection who doesn't work in a sweatshop making Nike shoes.

    17. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In most developing countries, the users do already pay. This is a major omission from the original article. While I currently live in Australia, I previously worked for a South African ISP. In most developing countries, such as South Africa, ISPs cover the entire cost of international backhaul from countries like the USA or UK, generally at a very high cost. Web2.0 companies in countries like the USA generally do not make any contribution to the cost of getting traffic to developing countries.

    18. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Philippines, thailand, cambodia, malaysia and indonesia.

      Federico, a guy from Colombia (LA) with a standard 3Mb connection who doesn't work in a sweatshop making Nike shoes.

      I'm willing to bet that for every 1 of you there are at least 99 more who aren't so lucky. In worse off places, I'm good with an estimate that's closer to 1 out of a thousand.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    19. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by febuiles · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for the asian countries since I've never been there, but according to http://www.internetworldstats.com/asia/th.htm, the situation in countries like Thailand is way better than what you describe (I didn't take the time to check the other countries).
      You'll find poor people with really bad jobs, that's true, but it's not the norm as most of the foreigners seem to think.

      To speak from my local experience: "Broadband" Internet Penetration (broadband by local standards is 128Kbps+) in Medellin was near 18% in 2008 (http://medellin.gov.co), not great but definitely nowhere near your numbers. The situation in Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is way better, so I don't know what you use to create your estimates.

    20. Re:Let the users pay the bandwidth bills by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for the asian countries since I've never been there, but according to http://www.internetworldstats.com/asia/th.htm, the situation in countries like Thailand is way better than what you describe (I didn't take the time to check the other countries).
      You'll find poor people with really bad jobs, that's true, but it's not the norm as most of the foreigners seem to think.

      That link does not define what constitutes an "internet user" - but speaking about people I know with average jobs like school teachers, call center employees and accountants, they can't afford home computers with anything more than dial-up. If you look at the income numbers listed at that site - ~$210/month average for Thailand, ~$120/month average for philippines where DSL is at $15-$20/month - that's not affordable.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  5. Business or Charity? by squoozer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't see the dilemma here, we are talking about companies that are in the business of trying to make money. If it is prohibitively expensive / unprofitable for them to supply video to Africa they should stop doing it. Of course there might be a good business reason to do something that incurs a loss for a while but I don't think anyone would bank on Africa suddenly becoming a profitable area of the world for anyone but diamond miners.

    I don't want to argue for rampant capitalism but we need to get a grip and realize that services cost money to provide and unless the consumers are willing to pay (in one way or another) they will probably have to go without.

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    1. Re:Business or Charity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe that the problem is less to do with the fact that it may be charity to supply access to content for these companies and all too often the case of business personnel saying our advertising works in the US why are the Africans not buying it. To put it in perspective, I am an American my culture roughly equates to some European cultures and Australian culture. If I see an advertisement from one of these cultures I generally get it. There may be pieces missing but for the most part I get the gist of the humor or intent of the ad. Now show me a ad from Japan or Sweden and I am left wondering what the hell was that. I am not trying to slight those cultures but some of the stuff I see produced from their cultures is just plain weird to me. I would not know what the hell to buy even if I understood the message of the ad half of the time. Conversely I am sure that it is the same for other cultures watching US / UK / Australian cultural advertisement. Some of the stuff we spend money on probably seems foolish at best to them. If it was delivered in a context they could relate to you may get better conversion. In business some times itâ(TM)s easier to brand a group of people freeloaders, wait till a startup captures that market and then consume them.

    2. Re:Business or Charity? by jfrankmbl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The dilemma is that their main goal may not be to make money. Maybe they want to provide information or a creative outlet or a little bit of humor to people. If the cost of doing so is not offset by incoming revenue, it is impossible for them to maintain, no matter how good their intentions. So, yes, you are right they should stop doing it because Africa probably isn't going to turn a profit with their current business model anytime soon. However, if that causes them to stray from their vision, they are wise to remember their goals and figure out what they can do outside of "making a buck".

    3. Re:Business or Charity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner!

    4. Re:Business or Charity? by oreaq · · Score: 1

      Maybe they would have more money to buy these awesome products from all these ads if we stop stealing their diamonds, and copper, and nickel, and all their other natural resources. But we can't do that! We need all the loot we can get to fuel our superior economy because we've stopped producing anything but "IP" over 10 years ago.

      The effect of all this is that Africa (and India and China and ...) can't participate as a consumer in the global market. But the market needs them because our financial system requires exponential growth to function. We need to grow x% every year.

      So, we can not produce growth ourselves because we have outsourced all the jobs that actually produce anything, the third world can't generate growth because we steal all their resources, and India et al can't buy anything either because we only pay them fractions of a percent of the value they generate for us.

      But fear not citizen! We, your brave leaders have all the solutions. We just invent money buy doubling the "value" of our houses every five years and everything will be fine.

      What I am trying to say is: You are right. Services cost money and consumers have to pay the price if they want to use them. From a macro-economic standpoint everything is fine. But TFA might describe a symptom of a pretty difficult macro-economic problem.

    5. Re:Business or Charity? by squoozer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think there is certainly some mileage in what you are saying but I think you missed one vital point regarding consumers in poorer nations at least: they don't have spare cash. For the most part almost all their money goes on buying essential goods, they don't have spare cash to buy the next gadget. From the advertisers point of view there is little point in directing adverts at them even if they were localized.

      Of course this is a rather broad brush argument because there are rich people even in the poorest countries but I think the marketing people probably feel there aren't enough of them.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    6. Re:Business or Charity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes, Africa may not have been the best example, but I was trying to show the contrast against the most diverse group quoted to my comfort zone. South America for example does have a class of individuals with disposable income, yet US centric media does not seem to attract purchasing from them. The company I work for has both and independent Asian and South American marketing division. Both of these markets where flat until we specifically focused on targeting them, now they are our fastest growing segments.

    7. Re:Business or Charity? by PingPongBoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a huge potential market but the people who put this fantastic technology together can't take advantage of the situation??? If the customer comes to the door but can't get in, don't whine about losing money.

      If they drive away customers, someone else will take up the business. It's just a matter of selling them something they want.

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  6. Bad business model, perhaps? by moon3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You don't need to be a web2.0 savant to figure out that rampart bandwidth expenses combined with meek advertisement (YouTube) could lead to loses.

    But hey, some consider this turf and establishment price. Google sure can afford it.

    1. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are we still on web2.0?

      The web is just about the only thing that has a longer release cycle than debian.

    2. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by maxume · · Score: 1
      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by dtoffe · · Score: 2, Informative

      From a developing country here (southern south america) and I fully agree with you, the problem is in the business model. See, I have now some money to spend, in local currency, that translates to around 3000 US dollars. I was trying to pay a 90 U$D service, and the only available payment method is with International Credit Card. But, the basic cost of having such CC is ridiculously high compared to the amount of money I could spend in a year buying internet items and services. So, what about easier payment methods available, perhaps even in the local currencies, tailored to the local markets you are trying to enter ?? Daniel

      --
      --- There is no spoon
    4. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      There would almost certainly have to be an intermediary service a la Paypal (I mean in the general aggregation sense, I have no idea of their capabilities for other currencies, etc). It would be incredibly expensive for all but the largest providers to maintain broad coverage of currencies/payment methods. Instead, it needs to be the business of a company to maintain this, and take a little off the top. That does mean that it's going to be more expensive to the end user, one way or another.

    5. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The web is just about the only thing that has a longer release cycle than debian.

      Duke Nukem?

    6. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by a1x2 · · Score: 1

      IPv6 ?

    7. Re:Bad business model, perhaps? by Adm.Wiggin · · Score: 1

      I would say ffmpeg, but Duke Nukem beats it now. Should we be frustrated or elated that ffmpeg finally made an actual release?

      I think ffmpeg is a better analog to the web's release cycle, since we have a product, but it's constantly changing. Duke Nukem Forever is just broken promises.

  7. No paradox by Tx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not as if this is anything specific to the developing world. The model for the dotcom 1.0 boom was "get the users now, figure out how to make a profit from them later". Now it just so happens that with Web 2.0 the new users are in developing countries, but the problem is the same - do you try and serve all these users in the hope that some day they might become profitable, or do you say that if you can't see a way to realize profit from them near term, then cut them loose. We all know how dotbomb 1.0 turned out, so the answer is pretty clear. The likes of google can cross-subsidize the poor, but less well-funded businesses should face up to the economic realities and not continue to pour money into users that will likely never be profitable for them - by the time these users might become profitable, they'll probably have moved on to other services anyway.

    --
    Oh no... it's the future.
  8. In fact a censorship by sysupbda · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, I know.. it costs money.

    But I just started thinking Internet is getting amazing again. The fact that I can stream a political discussion from the U.S. or access free e-books from Europe here in Hong Kong is AMAZING.

    How can we resolve the money issue without breaking this? I feel people around the world have never had a chance like today to bridge misunderstandings. Up until 2 years ago the only understanding of Western world one could have far away was:

    - Hollywood (or other typically fictional) movies

    - Expensive imported books (sometimes requiring a language skill level not easily attained abroad)

    1. Re:In fact a censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, but this argument isn't for the companies, it's for the governments. What you're essentially saying is that information is a human right, and I think this is why this sort of thing unsettles us even though the pragmatist in us sees the coroporation's position is untenable.

      The government I believe should get involved, and help support internet infrastructure. I'm no where near smart enough to work out how to do that effectively though..

    2. Re:In fact a censorship by MosesJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How can we resolve the money issue without breaking this? I feel people around the world have never had a chance like today to bridge misunderstandings. Up until 2 years ago the only understanding of Western world one could have far away was:

      - Hollywood (or other typically fictional) movies

      - Expensive imported books (sometimes requiring a language skill level not easily attained abroad)

      You really have this arse about face. The issue is not the inability of people in the developing world to understand Western culture, they get it all the time. With CNN and the BBC broadcasting globally its easy to get "Western" news and the BBC in particular has very strong cultural link communications with the world service. Then you get the propaganda stations like Voice of America

      In addition governments spend loads on organisations to spread the cultural message (e.g. the British Council) to these countries.

      These countries are voracious consumers of western media and fashions and have been for 50 years, this is why they are massive users of this content.

      The real issue is that in the Western World, especially the US, there is bugger all going the other way and bugger all knowledge of non-Western cultures (or even countries).

      --
      An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    3. Re:In fact a censorship by bitt3n · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, I know.. it costs money.

      But I just started thinking Internet is getting amazing again. The fact that I can stream a political discussion from the U.S. or access free e-books from Europe here in Hong Kong is AMAZING.

      How can we resolve the money issue without breaking this?

      Yes! For many years I was a stalwart member of the Islamic Jihad. Then one day, I saw that Youtube video where the cat grabs the string tied to the the ceiling fan and then spins around until he can hold on no longer, and he flies off against the wall. It gave me an entirely new perspective on Western culture and the common struggles faced by our two civilizations.

    4. Re:In fact a censorship by sysupbda · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know that terrorism is the only major concern of the western world together with the Swine flu and Obama's puppies + the funniest tricks cat do.

      What I meant is it is hard to stumble upon the things like western debates like those presented on http://www.youtube.com/user/HauensteinCenter while walking around Hong Kong. You would have to fly to the U.S. and attend debates if youtube was cutting you out.

      Also the West is taking more and more advantage of Internet to share their much better funded research like what you can find on:
      http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html

      Also access to Nietzsche's or Socrates work in a digitally divided world is simply more difficult. Western philosophers are not studied much at all in most of the world's schools. You don't just stumble on them in every bookstore out here. And if you do order them, they are overpriced and take weeks to access.

      So let us be clear:
      - There are more than two civilisations on the planet
      - Very few people on the planet care about Obama's puppies or the Bailout of AIG
      - Internet is bringing us a much wider range of information much less filtered than through just CNN and BBC. It does mean there are flying cats on youtube which are probably as popular to watch in Beijing than they are in NYC. But there is such an amazing opportunity building up that should ideally not be cut between whether you are in Europe/North America or not.

      I wish we could find a way to fund this new digital world in a way there are not "mini-Internets" where depending on where you are, you will only have a restricted access to your areas information.

  9. 1947-08-15 by tepples · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was wondering from a long time whey videos on the BBC site cannot be accessed from here in India.

    15 August 1947 is the reason.

    1. Re:1947-08-15 by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      In a move sure to inspire controversy, the BBC Online yesterday announced its new "Don't blame us, blame Ghandi." splash screen for viewers from Indian IPs...

    2. Re:1947-08-15 by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      The median high-definition monitor, despite a larger pixel count, is still smaller than living-room SDTVs.

      You mean in terms of total surface area? That's understandable. Typical use of a desktop monitor is from around two feet away; the television is anywhere from 5 to 20 feet away from the couch.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    3. Re:1947-08-15 by tepples · · Score: 1

      Typical use of a desktop monitor is from around two feet away; the television is anywhere from 5 to 20 feet away from the couch.

      So how do I run PC through that TV? Are home computers in the developing world more likely to support SDTV output than PCs sold in the developed world?

    4. Re:1947-08-15 by Carnivore · · Score: 1

      Many video cards have S-Video ports. If you need it, you can get an S-Video to composite adapter.

      If the TV is really that large, it's likely to have at least one S-Video port.

    5. Re:1947-08-15 by tepples · · Score: 1

      Many video cards have S-Video ports.

      And many don't. In fact, many PCs don't even have video cards; I've never seen onboard S-Video output on a desktop PC.

    6. Re:1947-08-15 by indi0144 · · Score: 1

      You think we see TV on a rock or in a mirror? Next year were making transition to HDTV almost all SA is over it. 32" HD LCD it's around $450 USD a HTPC is around 300 USD. A 22" monitor HDMI is just 200 USD. until economic slowdown everybody was buying LCD's like fucking rice.

    7. Re:1947-08-15 by indi0144 · · Score: 2, Informative

      have you ever heard of TV tuner cards? you can by pass the video signal to the AV RCA out, it's not digital but well most theres not a lot of HD to stream anyway.

      In the end I agree with the service providers because theres a lot of demand for video and remember one thing, bandwidht CAPS are almost non existent in developing world. But the FAIL is in the service providers for not trying to sell real targeted ADs, or subscriptions. I'd be more than happy to pay 10 USD monthly to see what I want when I want it at decent resolution. It's cheaper than local cable offering with 130 channels of translated dumb fox-warner-sony- crap. Or let me buy channels to see.. let me buy episodes for 50C each FUCK! the money is here you just don't give a heck. When you think you have to put your data centers in the middle of a jungle, with IT personal killed by malaria everyday.. you know and I know it can be helped, you're a moron

      This is good news for local entrepreneurs, If only I had enough money to start up a local hulu clone.. sigh.

    8. Re:1947-08-15 by tepples · · Score: 1

      have you ever heard of TV tuner cards? you can by pass the video signal to the AV RCA out

      I thought tuner cards were for video input (show signal from your cable box on your PC), not video output (show signal from your PC on your TV).

  10. P2P by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    P2P a la bittorrent is the only way to feed the world with vidéos. Period.
    Companies like Youtube are making revenues that will not last : they occupy a temporary niche that will disappear sooner or later. Let's just hope they won't cling to their model like the **AA did.

    More broadcasting power to the people ! Call for a symmetrical up/down connectivity !

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:P2P by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      P2P a la bittorrent is the only way to feed the world with vidéos. Period.

      No. The only way to "feed the world with videos" is to use the multicasting technology that's built right into the internet. Too bad the ISPs and carriers screwed up so badly and forced developers to create a far less efficient L7 solution...

    2. Re:P2P by RoverDaddy · · Score: 1

      Uh, multicasting might work great for live events, but how does it solve the video-on-demand problem? Are enough people looking to watch exactly the same pre-recorded video at exactly the same time for multicasting to really help?

      --
      RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
    3. Re:P2P by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Doh, good point... *sigh*

    4. Re:P2P by westlake · · Score: 1
      More broadcasting power to the people ! Call for a symmetrical up/down connectivity !

      How much does this cost and who pays the bills?

    5. Re:P2P by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      If you just use 100% of your upload and 12.5% of your download bandwidth, you'll have a symmetrical connectivity in most cases. It costs you the difference between your current connectivity and a contract that provides 1/8 of the download speed. It gives you an idea of the maximum boundary for the cost. However, I suspect it to just be the choice of ISPs claiming that "people leech, they don't upload or share stuff". Do we really want this to go to the point where our upload bandwidth will be the same as a TV-remote and the download bandwidth the same as a HD TV ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  11. high bandwidth by ionix5891 · · Score: 5, Informative

    i run several large sites, all are very popular in south america, south east asia and middle east

    but the bandwidth bills are huge as is in gigabits/s

    what we started doing is capping speeds during peak hours to these places simply because not enough money is being made from sales and advertising to pay for it

    i know net neutrality people say thats wrong but were not a charity and have to pay alot to carriers :(

    1. Re:high bandwidth by divisionbyzero · · Score: 5, Informative

      This isn't a violation of net neutrality because as a site owner you could serve traffic to these locations but *choose* not to. If a provider prevented you from serving content to certain locations, etc, that would be a violation of network neutrality.

    2. Re:high bandwidth by ionix5891 · · Score: 2, Informative

      true we have no restrictions offpeak 12 hours a day when we have agreements with carriers not to charge anything for bandwidth as they have plenty capacity then, so we just pass on the savings to users

      the problem is peak hours, even at 4.5-5$ a mbit @ 95th percentile the costs spiral very quickly :( and some places like iran where we get huge traffic from at times makes us nothing in income unfortunately

      the bandwidth prices are falling rapidly but the amount of users from developing countries is growing exponentially, sometimes I envy google for their deep pockets and being able to afford services like youtube running

    3. Re:high bandwidth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your example isn't anti-net neutrality. If your user's ISP decided to cap traffic to your site and instead allowed full access to disney that would be a better example.

    4. Re:high bandwidth by c · · Score: 1

      > i know net neutrality people say thats wrong

      Net neutrality people would rarely say it's wrong to discriminate against your own users with your own content. They only have a problem with third parties acting as gatekeepers.

      c.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
    5. Re:high bandwidth by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Be glad that you're not paying what I was back in 1998 for pipe. The best connection I had was for about $500/Mb/s measured at 95/5. And I was the largest consumer in Seattle at the time (7 peers using up to 1Gb/s.)

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    6. Re:high bandwidth by febuiles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have you considered serving relevant ads to your users in those regions?
      The ads I see for all networks (including AdSense) in Latin America are: "Find sexy colombians", "Get a degree at the University of Phoenix, Arizona" and "Green Card Lottery, click here!". Maybe that has something to do with the companies not generating enough revenue.

  12. Why don't they target the whole world with ads? by azgard · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So what's preventing advertising companies to have global or localized ads, depending where the user lives?

    I know Google does it, but all the other ads I see in Czech republic on the US pages are very local to America (companies/services I don't know).

    1. Re:Why don't they target the whole world with ads? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      So what's preventing advertising companies to have global or localized ads, depending where the user lives?

      Its technically feasible. But as an advertiser, are you going to pay for 18 localized versions of ads to locales that have very little money to buy your wares? And all the corporate infrastructure needed for that?

    2. Re:Why don't they target the whole world with ads? by EvilToiletPaper · · Score: 1

      Google already does it, so do a lot of large advertisement pools like doubleclick etc. using the consumer's IP.

      It wouldn't make sense for Tyson to make an ad in Chinese for a thanksgiving turkey but these sites and their affiliated advertisers could move their services to the international arena. Have a pool of advertisements from all major developing countries.. China, India, Brazil etc..

      It could be hard due to the trade restrictions in some countries but you can always collaborate with some local ad providers on some sort of a profit sharing scheme.

    3. Re:Why don't they target the whole world with ads? by keeboo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Its technically feasible. But as an advertiser, are you going to pay for 18 localized versions of ads to locales that have very little money to buy your wares? And all the corporate infrastructure needed for that?

      Little money? It depends on which so-called developing countries you're talking about.

      Now if you're expecting for a guy in Brazil to click in a banner written in English, advertising some generic random gadget, and after that, he would bother to make an international order (to pay a lot for transportation, local taxes, the long wait and any other hassle possible).... Well, think again.

      Why should someone bother? Would you?

      E-commerce in Brazil is quite popular, and you see lots of banners advertising products domestically buyable. The local companies are not complaining.
      If there's some profitability problems with Youtube with certain countries, ones populated with people with broadband connections at home (not exactly starving, aren't they?), there's something wrong going on.

    4. Re:Why don't they target the whole world with ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I refuse to advertise in developing countries because:
      -they don't have the money
      -shipping is very expensive
      -different cultures = different demands

      But as a web 2.0 site they still contribute content and members, which makes it more valuable for everyone else.

  13. SOPCASTS are like "Live" Torrents by Fearan · · Score: 1

    Google "SOPCAST" and "p2p tv" and you will find a significant number of sites that provide live p2p video streaming. Basically while you download from someone, you upload to someone else at the same time. This is widely used for sports matches and other tv that is better enjoyed live than with an old-school torrent.

    1. Re:SOPCASTS are like "Live" Torrents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you limit the download speed to the upload speed and also wait for 100% download before starting playback, you've won. That also means you get more than a 1.00 ratio because you keep seeding during playback.

    2. Re:SOPCASTS are like "Live" Torrents by Inda · · Score: 1

      TVU is another. In fact there are a dozen. And all these new P2P flash players do a decent job too.

      Sopcast is the daddy as far as I'm concerned. When I use VLC with it, it is almost a perfect solution for sports. I just wish the quality would improve. For someone like me, with a high upload rate, I think I should be offered high quality.

      If I could just get it to stream to my 360, I'd be laughing. The one or two discussions I've read about it on the net are not enough; I can never get the stream to play even though my laptop says it's spitting out bits and bytes.

      Would love to see an OSS solution. And no, I'm not clever enough to roll it myself.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
  14. Then bill customers for what they actually used. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Was that so hard? ^^

    (Yes, I know that people expect everything to be free. But hey, if it's worth it, people will pay. [But that is a huge if.])

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  15. Youtube too big to fail! by RemoWilliams84 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Perhaps no company is more in the grip of the international paradox than YouTube, which [an analyst] recently estimated could lose $470 million in 2009, in part because of the high cost of delivering billions of videos each month.

    We just can't let this happen. Youtube is too big to fail. Just think of the impact it would have on the economy.

    We must support them with a government bailout.

    --
    "I don't have to think. I only have to do it. The results are always perfect, but that's old news." - Meat Puppets
  16. Re:Contribute or be Cut Off by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    I seriously doubt a million videos of skaters doing faceplants, idiots who just THINK they can sing, and comedy bits devoid of any actual comedy are going to improve our image in the world.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  17. Unless you can sell the localised version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or need it to get the government contract.

    Either pay the developed world to do the work, or swap free video access to the developing world for it.

  18. underserving market leads to piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anybody who did not understand that, has to.

    Simple as that.

    If these markets are leeching, and somebody does not see a viable interest it does not mean that there is no market to be used. It happens again and again, and it will happen until somebody does not pick up his behind and think of some way of using such potential. No meter how small it is.

    And then in couple years, You will see another Google coming up. Or maybe the same Google occupying another market and thriving with it.

    That is not easy, because it requires a change of mind and business.

    1. Re:underserving market leads to piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No meter how small it is.

      All meters are of equal size. That's the beauty of the metric system.

  19. Here in South America... by rodrix79 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok. I am south american and I have worked for years both in the computer industry and as a social worker. Now let me see if I am getting this straight: You are telling me that some web 2.0 companies can't make a profit from developing countries while cellphone companies sell millions and millions of shiny new cellphones and cellphones lines to poor people? And you tell me it is not the companies' fault? Mmmmm... I may be wrong, but could it be that sitting there in their air conditioned offices is not getting them a clear picture on how to make businesses in different cultures?

    PS: By the way, I haven't found an English translation for this, but we are not "poor people" but "personas en situaciÃn de pobreza". Hope you do get the difference there ;)

    1. Re:Here in South America... by sarathmenon · · Score: 1

      I don't speak either of portugese or spanish, but are you looking for something like lower per capita income when compared to the US counterparts?

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
    2. Re:Here in South America... by dtoffe · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is not a direct translation that I know of, but I'll try to clarify what he means: We are not analphabet sheep herders isolated in the mountains (no pejorative intention here), we are educated people, even with university degrees, but mostly underpaid, unemployed, having to pay ridiculously high taxes but receiving ridicuously bad services from an incredibly bloated and inefficient state. A few days ago I've seen on the TV a field full of tents somewhere in USA, where people suffering from the current crisis had to go to live when they lost their house. That's close to what we mean. Cheers, Daniel from Arg.

      --
      --- There is no spoon
    3. Re:Here in South America... by karuna · · Score: 2, Informative

      Exactly! Even if people have much less income comparing to the US or Western Europe, they still have some disposable money. Otherwise, how they are able to browse the Internet that certainly costs something. The content providers probably don't even realize that most people in third word countries don't have credit cards or bank accounts, so they are often simply unable to buy things online even if they want to. Micro-payments by cell phone are very popular, but they usually work only locally as they required agreements with local phone companies.

    4. Re:Here in South America... by Exp315 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You make a very good point. I think U.S. companies are often culturally naive about the rest of the world, and fail to exploit the international market because they simply don't understand it. I sell software online, and while the U.S. is certainly my biggest market, my sales also do very while in countries where I have been able to "localize". That means translating everything to the local language, pricing and marketing the product appropriately for the country, and not making it difficult to buy. If you sell a product or service from the U.S., with all information in English only, priced for the U.S. market in US$, accepting only U.S. credit cards for payment etc., your international sales might be limited - duh!

    5. Re:Here in South America... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Ok. I am south american and I have worked for years both in the computer industry and as a social worker. Now let me see if I am getting this straight: You are telling me that some web 2.0 companies can't make a profit from developing countries while cellphone companies sell millions and millions of shiny new cellphones and cellphones lines to poor people? And you tell me it is not the companies' fault? Mmmmm... I may be wrong, but could it be that sitting there in their air conditioned offices is not getting them a clear picture on how to make businesses in different cultures?

      Simple. Completely different business models. Once the very expensive infrastructure is in place, the costs of new users is low; there is no real bandwidth limit since most people don't use every tower all the time and you can simply drop calls if you get overloaded; plus people pay in advance for the service and the phone. No pay? No service. You have a high startup cost with relatively low marginal costs for each additional user; plus you can limit service to profitable areas (or get government to subsidize unprofitable ones as well as the early build out of the infrastructure).

      Web companies, OTOH, don't have low marginal costs as each additional user cost real money for bandwidth; and they don't get paid for the bandwidth nor can they control where their sites are streamed nor who accesses them; at least not as easy as a cell phone company can. So their only real choice is to cut access to unprofitable regions.

      I'm sure they'd love to sell millions and millions of shiny new webphones and charge monthly fees but until they can their need to look at what makes them money and cut their loses.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    6. Re:Here in South America... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is not that you can't make money in South America, its that the money is not easily made via targeted advertisements and the methods that work better in the Western world.

      It's easy to make money with cell phones: you have to buy a cell phone, and then you have to pay to continue service. Web sites offer all or most of their content for free up front and we hope you view enough content and click enough ads to generate cash. That means that we are working on a "If you build it, money will come" model.

      Speaking as someone who works for a unnamed company who is trying to make a living off of web based advertisement, I can tell you that the margins on web advertising can be really thin, and the complexity of extending the infrastructure internationally is high. It's even worse when you have to make up for the lack of infrastructure you have in other places.

      Let's be clear, we're not just talking about outside the Western world. It is a pain in the ass to build out an app from the US to Europe. The major difference is that Europe generally has the audience and advertising money that other parts of the world simply don't have. It's expensive to set up shop there for a US company, but there is definitely money to be made, so the effort is usually made.

      I think there is definitely a way to monetize South America and other places, but the current model needs some tweaking to make it profitable. At the very least, I think that content from high traffic, but low profitability locations should be blocked unless a cover fee is paid by the ISP. That fee would offset the costs of doing business, and the ISP could pass the charge to the consumer, possibly as a tiered package deal. Or, the ISP could pay for a co-location of your applications locally so that the bandwidth is limited to replication between sites. Equipment, in and of itself is not really all that expensive, its the charges for bandwidth as well as for power and space in remote locations that will kill you.

    7. Re:Here in South America... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Software is a much different market. Assuming that your software is not being "pirated", no matter where in the world your customer is, it still costs pretty much the same to sell your product to them. The bandwidth is usually not a big deal, because it is a one-time download and you can make them wait as long as it takes to finish the download.

      Yeah, there's costs for internationalization and pricing, but those costs are generally fixed quantities that you can make a decision about before you decide to offer the product. Even then, you can still offer the product and they have the option of dealing with the fact that it is not in their language or that it's a little harder to get the funds to you in order to buy it.

      Web content, and particularly video content, is much different. Since you make money based on the number of times you get accesses, bandwidth is a huge deal. You also have the added wrinkle that you generally can't make your users wait for their content, like you could for a download. Bandwidth to non-Western countries is very expensive as it is very limited. This, combined with the need to maintain a certain Quality of Service level usually means that you not only have to pay for expensive bandwidth, you generally also have to do a build out in the region or your costs become prohibitive and certainly your QoS level is in the shitter. This is in addition to any internationalization, marketing and pricing that needs to be done.

    8. Re:Here in South America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So from what I understand of this, a shorter version would be "Fully capable people stuck in a shithole, but not by choice and with no reasonable way to change the fact".

  20. The Long View by Bob9113 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Going way off on a tangent here, into a "solution" which probably isn't really practical, but which would be cool if it worked.

    'But these people are so hungry for this content. They sit and they watch and watch and watch. The problem is they are eating up bandwidth, and it's very difficult to derive revenue from it.'

    Is there a subset of content which could increase the ability to derive revenue from those countries? If we selected a subset, it would reduce the cost to deliver it. If it was content that increased the ability to derive revenue, it would pay for itself in the long run.

    But what am I talking about? Content that increases the ability to derive revenue through advertising? Well, basically, I'm thinking of some TED Talks that have extraordinary ideas for increasing sustainable economic growth in third world countries. What if these companies, who know how to deliver content, focused on content like "how to convert cow dung into fuel pellets", "sustainable yield agriculture in equatorial climates", or "scrap metal Stirling engines". Even if the viewers (those who have access to computers) didn't use the knowledge for themselves, they might develop a hacker ethic to help bring up the rural areas of their country. Increased productivity at the edges lifts the whole country.

    For the target countries, it gives them something to watch instead of just building resentment. For the content companies, it is a very long-term approach to developing new markets of the future.

    Just spitballing. Any thoughts?

    1. Re:The Long View by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      I don't know what TED Talks are, but you seem to be talking about how-to videos. This seems applicable for all cultures. I think that you are on to something. I wonder if there is a way to make it pay right now.

      Also, you could create inspirational videos on overcoming corruption. I heard that Mexico is a very wealthy country, which suprised me, because of stereotypes. The person said that there is a lot of corruption there. If there were a way to end that corruption, then we would have a much stronger continent.

      I like your way of thinking.

  21. There is NO way for them to pay by cybernanga · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having lived for more than 2 decades in third world countries, there is more going on than you may think.

    It is true that may people in developing countries do not have the funds to pay, which is why the advertisers are getting upset. However, in my opinion the biggest problem is that even when you have the funds to pay, you can't find anyone who will accept your money.

    For example, how many online stores only accept Credit/Debit Cards, from their own country? PayPal is supposed to provide a solution for this, but only if you live in a western country. If you live in South America, Asia or Africa forget it, you can't use the service.

    Even in the poorest developing countries there are still many individuals who have disposable income, but they are limited to spending it within their own markets, because of artificially imposed trade barriers, often set-up by the very companies that complain that they can't penetrate said market.

    If you sell widgets online, and only allow payment via a Credit/Debit card with a US billing address, guess what, you will generally only make sales to people in the US. Everybody else relies on grey imports, and often the middle men\importers & smugglers will make more money than you on your own product.

    I don't have a complete solution, as the topic is very complicated, but I am trying in my own tiny little way.

    --
    www.Buy-Proxy.com - A "buyer-driven" global marketplace.
    1. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by vrai · · Score: 1

      It is distinctly non-trivial to set up a secure, trustworthy, reliable internet payment system. It's a financially worthwhile undertaking for the high per-capita income markets, but not for the rest of the planet; predominately due to the vast array of regulation and red tape one would have to jump through for each new country.

      This is compounded by the problem that many middling-to-lower markets have onerous Governments that are often outright kleptocracies. These kind of Governments don't take kindly to payment systems they don't control and can't easily manipulate.

      South American nations could make their citizens' lives easier in this regard by converting Mercosur in to a regulatory union: with common bank controls and free movement of wealth, if not a common currency. This would greatly increase the viability of an internet accessible payment system being profitable and so successful.

    2. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why is the US like that? I notice that many web sites won't sell to Canada.

    3. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      It's true that it can be hard to buy things overseas, but bear in mind that it is risky to accept payments from countries where the economies may be less stable and profitable and regulation is unfamiliar or ineffective.

      With a US credit card, the seller knows that they will get their money, and they won't have to navigate through the laws, taxes and possibly even corruption in 140 other countries and territories worldwide to get it. They don't have to calculate exchange rates, or worry about how a rate shift will devalue their ask price.

      In many cases, the ability for credit cards to be used is what makes these businesses viable to begin with.

      As you pointed out, the actual fact that you have disposable income locally is not enough to make it a viable market for an overseas vendor. The costs associated with actually obtaining that money from you may be prohibitive.

    4. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by happyfeet2000 · · Score: 1

      Amazon.com is our friend, they accept foreign cards, ship to any or even multiple addresses, not any of that "shipping address must be the same as billing address" BS. Also, through them you can buy from many small merchants that would never accept foreign cards.

      If they can do it how comes other big merchants can't? I hope someday Newegg, Best Buy, etc sell through Amazon.

    5. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by keeboo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's true that it can be hard to buy things overseas, but bear in mind that it is risky to accept payments from countries where the economies may be less stable and profitable and regulation is unfamiliar or ineffective

      I mean no offense, but I don't believe the U.S. are exactly an example to the World on stability and profitability nowadays.

      With a US credit card, the seller knows that they will get their money, and they won't have to navigate through the laws, taxes and possibly even corruption in 140 other countries and territories worldwide to get it. They don't have to calculate exchange rates, or worry about how a rate shift will devalue their ask price.

      If a company wants to remain inside its comfort zone and deal only with US mechanisms, it should not complain foreign people don't buy from them. - It's not like it has some sort of "divine right" to sell to the rest of the world, anyway.

    6. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      PayPal is supposed to provide a solution for this, but only if you live in a western country. If you live in South America, Asia or Africa forget it, you can't use the service.

      PayPal does not even have full penetration here in the western countries being more frequently used in transactions with third party websites or between private individuals (as on eBay). There are many large corporations *cough* Amazon *cough* who do not accept direct PayPal payments, including many major insurance companies, utilities, and other service providers that people might like to pay online with PayPal. One can get a PayPal debit card that uses the MasterCard network, but that is an additional step and bother. I think that part of the reason why services like PayPal have trouble gaining significant traction is that the big players in the consumer credit and online payments industry, like Visa and MasterCard, are always maneuvering behind the scenes to limit their reach or prevent them from competing directly (established middlemen don't like it when a newcomer moves in on their bread and butter business). Its a business problem with vested interests not a technical one.

    7. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by cybernanga · · Score: 1

      I wanted to use Amazon Payments on my Buy-Proxy website, but I can't setup an account as I don't live in the US. Apparently, the UK is not good enough. I have a standard Amazon Account, that's not the problem, I can't setup an Amazon Payments account without a US Address.

      I wanted to use Google Payments on another site, but they have decided that as I'm UK based, I can only make transactions in £'s and I need to be able to sell in Euro's and US $'s. PayPal makes that simple, and handle the exchange rate for me. Google have made it almost impossible. So I only use Google Payments for 1 out of 5 products on the site.

      --
      www.Buy-Proxy.com - A "buyer-driven" global marketplace.
    8. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by access.name · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I have encontered myself many times wanting to buy, only to see that it's impossible: it's impossible to connect a paypal account with an argentinean debit card, for example. At least, last time I tried it was. Not so long ago, it was impossible to buy from amazon or ebay without a credit card. I haven't checked since.

      In argentina, is not that common for people to use credit cards. We use cash, and from the last ten years we started using debit cards. I don't like credit cards, I don't want to have one.

      Another problem we face is corrupt customs/mail people that steal our shipments. I ordered some cds that never arrived: ordering things is a roulette, you are never sure if the product is going to arrive or be stolen along the way.

      But what I can't understand is how there isn't something like an "internet buying card" where I can specify some money limit and use that to buy things instead of compromising the security of my entire bank account and identity every time I want to buy something.

      For example, I imagine it being something like this: I buy a $300 card, with cash, in a store. I use that card to buy things off the internet. Even if the card number is stolen, my identity is safe, and the max amount of cash that can be stolen is $300. One could choose the exact amount of cash the card contains, and after it's spent a new card must be bought. Why is it that something like this doesn't exist? I think the amount of people spending money on something like this would be HUGE.

    9. Re:There is NO way for them to pay by ornel · · Score: 1

      I live in one of those third world countries, and I see advertisements everywhere I look. There is a LOT of spending going on here. Only the cellphone market has hijacked a significant chunk of people's income. It's just that people won't click on irrelevant advertising.

  22. kidneys by spectrokid · · Score: 1

    How about ads for where to sell ^h^h^h^h donate a kidney? (running for the woods now...)

    --

    10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

  23. IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by cenc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am sorry, but this is total BS. I have been developing web sites in Latin America (Mexico, Guatemala, Chile) for going on 10 years now. This might (MIGHT) apply to populations in Africa and some parts of Asia.Even there are people with money. If they have a computer, and sufficiently fast connection to watch things like U-tube, they have money.

    This is the idiots fault for not doing their market research. There are trillions of dollars to be made in developing country because of demand for things that are not easy to find or limited selection. It is the advertisers fault for not being able to create mechanisms to deliver the goods and accept payment.

    The problem is that what they are selling often requires a U.S. only credit card. Even people with credit cards, often have trouble buying things in the United States or Europe because they do not accept foreign cards.

    Solve the payment problem, and the revenue is unlimited. There are often plenty of domestic web sites in developing countries making plenty of money.

    As for advertising revenue, I have run many sites and know for a fact I can make many times the money for any given space on a popular site over what Google will pay me for it by selling to a domestic advertiser in a developing country.

    The ignorance of that article is impressive.

    1. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by NineNine · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're probably right. It probably IS the credit cards. But as an e-commerce seller in the US, I'm going to tell you straight up: I do not and will not accept credit cards from outside of the US. Why? Rampant fraud. Until other countries deal with their fraud issues, there is no way that online merchants of any kind are going to accept credit cards from outside of the US. The risk is waaaay too high.

    2. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by dkf · · Score: 1

      Until other countries deal with their fraud issues, there is no way that online merchants of any kind are going to accept credit cards from outside of the US. The risk is waaaay too high.

      What about plans to deal with credit card fraud risk from inside the US?

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    3. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Most sites that won't take international credit cards aren't interested in the massive amount of fraud that comes with them. It's much harder (read: effectively impossible) to find the people responsible when they're in another country.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest. It's not that there is no money in South America, its that it costs a lot of money to get to a position where you can tap that market.

      Let's say I could make 100m dollars in Brazil, but it costs me 99m to make that 100m, then my profit is only 1m, even if I was able to tap millions in revenue.

      Your local businesses will pay less on the dollar to offer their services to you, that's how they can manage it. They might only make 3m dollars in revenue, but if it only cost them 1m dollars to get their product to you, then they have a much better business model than the guy who made 100m worth of sales, but only got 1m after costs.

    5. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by NineNine · · Score: 2, Informative

      What about plans to deal with credit card fraud risk from inside the US?

      You do the best you can. But from my experience, the fraud rate from inside the US is several orders of magnitudes better than outside of the country.

    6. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 1

      There are always exceptions, of course - South Africans (admittedly a 1st/3rd world mixture) do a roaring trade with Amazon.com (to name but one) every year. All with credit cards.

    7. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of these people access the internet inside internet cafes. They pay about $1 USD for an hour to access a computer.

    8. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by cybernanga · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Out of curiosity, will you do business with Canada or the UK?

      What (if any) problems have you had with credit cards from these two countries?

      --
      www.Buy-Proxy.com - A "buyer-driven" global marketplace.
    9. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by FarHat · · Score: 1

      You can get one hour on the net for about 25 cents in India.

      --
      At the intersection of computation and biology.
    10. Re:IT IS THE CREDIT CARDS STUPID!!!! by gordguide · · Score: 1

      I won't argue with you ... you need to protect yourself.

      But, if Hilton Hotels and American Airlines can find a way to accept credit cards in Moscow, Nairobi, and San Paulo, why can't you?

      The answer is you are not trying to ... you've decided that it's "not worth it" and that's that.

      The problem is not foreign buyers, it's the method you are using to vet foreign buyers.

      Right now, no-one in the US is really addressing the problem, so your problem is also your competitor's problem, and there is no competitive disadvantage that you can discern to refusing foreign buyers.

      As soon as someone who competes with you on volume figures out how to do that (and clearly it is not impossible) they will own those buyers at your expense ... and they will eat your lunch.

      I will give you an example, Land's End. There is an issue with selling to Canadians, and that is there is GST to be collected at the border. It amounts to pennies on the dollar.

      UPS, however, will charge the recipient $20 to $60 to collect those pennies, and demand a COD of (for example) $C 65.00 on a $US 70 product.

      Land's End collects the $5 when you check out, they use the cheapest (for US resellers) carrier, which is UPS, but because there is no need to prepay the $5 there is no $60 brokerage fee. Customer gets the product just like his US counterpart.

      As a result of that, Canadians either deal exclusively with Land's End (or merchants like them) or refuse to buy from any US reseller who ships UPS. Trust me ... it's absolutely true.

      Land's End reports that Canadian customers are 20% of their sales. Other clothing resellers ... they see a few % and they are naive customers who are unaware of the issues, and complain.

      So, those other resellers see Canadians as a pain-in-the-ass because of the complaints. In the meantime, Land's End quietly runs to the bank, hoping no-one else figures it out.

      It's the same with other foreign buyers. There is a way, and those who are early and get on it will reap not only sales they cannot get from US buyers, but loyalty as well.

      Who do you want to be?

  24. leave them alone.. by zr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    let it happen naturally. history shows forcing progress on people always results in some flavor of evil.

  25. Block the Ubuntu downloads to african people?! by chord.wav · · Score: 1

    YouTube is already blocking content for other countries. So, regardless you are an american citizen, if you are in certain countries, you can't view many videos. Blocking content is NOT the solution! This will only lead to more isolation. I can't express well enough how dissapointed I am.

    I really expected better from Google, can't believe that with Vinton Cerf as one of it's VPs and all many other enlightened ones over there they took this lame approach.

    What has happened to the "Information should be free" motto I, as many of you, grew up with? Where are the "hacker ethics" now?
    Suddenly it as all about bussines.

    So what's next? Block the Ubuntu downloads to african people?! What a load of bullshit!!! They should be sorry and ashamed.

  26. Some probable reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I run a profitable small web site in Latin America, and I believe there are two things to that make it difficult for US (or any high income country) web companies to make advertising profit in the deloping world.

    1) The difficulty to reach (and get money from) local advertisers. Most advertising in the developing world is local, and most global ad networks have very little to non advertisers from this part of the world. That is, if you run a website in the developing world, there are almost none profitable ad networks to hook your site to, meaning that you need local ad sales teams, knocking on every customer door. This can make the operation less profitable and be complicated for US or Europe based companies.
    2) The ad market is significantly smaller in the developing world. Whilst in the US total advertising is around $1.000 per inhabitant, in a middle income country like Panama, total advertising is around $100 per inhabitant.

    There is one upside to this: the less overall market efficiency in the developing world makes relative prices to go up, and, if you operate locally, costs are significantly lower, compensating aforementioned facts and making it viable to profitably operate web companies in the developing world.

    In conclusion, I believe that local sites (operated from each developing market/country) have a higher chance of making a profit from advertising related ventures.

  27. Cultural problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The primary problem is that you need to understand your customers first, before trying to set up a business model.

    Yeah, ads work in USA but doesn't work in Brazil. Why?

    Simply because the culture is different. Brazil has one of the highest numbers of piracy. What is piracy? Get the same (or almost the same) for less, or yet, for free.

    That's the main issue. 3rd world countries with high levels of piracy can tell a lot about the customers you will find. They're not buying your cheap Google Ad, simply because the products those banners sale are not cheap enough.

    I have seen tons of websites that didn't made profits from Googl Ad, but made huge profits from banners of auctions web sites like Mercado Livre (an eBay like website).

    The ads were explicitly anouncing products that tou couldn't find for less in anywhere else. (Including pirated products)

    Yeah, that's what 3rd world people want, more for less. And you can be sure that those people will eat your resources until you discover how to make profit or charge by the service. When you charge for it, they will simply disappear and look for a similar one for free.

  28. Pipes? by YourExperiment · · Score: 1

    Web companies often need more servers to make content available to parts of the world with limited bandwidth

    Can anyone clarify what on earth this part of the summary means? Isn't that like saying "we've only got really thin pipes, so we'll need a more powerful pump to force enough water through them?"

    1. Re:Pipes? by kevingolding2001 · · Score: 1

      It's about the number of simultaneous connections.

      As the (consumers) bandwidth gets lower, so it takes longer for the web page to be transmitted, hence there are more active connections at any given point in time.
      Each connection to the server uses up resources of that server.

      It's more like "we've only got really thin pipes, so we'll need a lot more taps"

  29. No compassion... by cagrin · · Score: 1

    We are technologically advanced enough to provide basic needs of people for free. Homelessness and starvation should not exist in this world anymore but it does because of corporate and political greed. This discussion should not be how to make money off spreading technology in developing countries but how to educate and inform others around the world. The fact that we're having this discussion about not making money off of developing nations says something (not good) about our corrupt business/political system. Most of the blame can be laid at the hands of the private international banking system (such as the Federal Reserve Bank) for inflating our currency almost to oblivion (and they're not done yet). Do yourself a favour and watch the movie, Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo if you haven't already seen it. The corruption behind the scenes of our so-called elected officials is unbelievable once you have a look behind the curtain.

    --
    ~ awaiting spiritual enlightenment ~
  30. Canada deserves Internet access too! by ActusReus · · Score: 2, Funny

    You insensitive clo... oh, I'm ashamed of myself.

  31. What is the impact of China on the Internet? by TropicalCoder · · Score: 1

    The proposition before us is that the developing world is a profit sink for web companies. We have seen some excellent responses from participants from South America who suggest there is money to be made in developing countries if you know how. I remember reading about a company that garnered considerable success specializing in marketing to developing countries with some incredibly innovative thinking, and I feel the answer lies in this direction.

    There was a country not mentioned as yet, however, that has a very quickly growing rate of internet participation, and that is China. I don't suppose they would have that much impact on sites like YouTube because of the cultural/language barrier, but on my own web site I have seen a tremendous increase in hits from China in just the past year. My web statistics tell me that in this past month, .cn was number 7 in the list for bytes transferred, and "unresolved numerical addresses" (which is usually China as well) was in the number 2 spot - both together accounting for 25% of content downloaded from my site.

    This leads me to ponder - who are these people? I have never received any feedback from them, so they contribute nothing to me in that way. On my web site I have a humble offering of a few free software utilities, some of which have enjoyed wide-spread popularity, but basically it is just a hobby site. There is no advertising, and the bandwidth consumed overall is quite modest. However, though I have no problem with the Chinese people downloading my software, I do have a problem with the totalitarian Chinese government. For example, I hate what they are doing to the people of Tibet - deliberately trying to destroy their culture and religion. I also have a problem with how the Chinese government represses their own people, and the Great Firewall of China and censorship and everything else that comes with a totalitarian government. Just yesterday I got to thinking about maybe blocking China from my web site, but that would affect perfect innocent people, and then I had an idea. Why not just put a couple of lines on each web page saying things like "Free Tibet now!" and "Remember Tiananmen Square!", and let the Great Firewall of China block the .cn domain for me.

    What is the impact of China on the Internet for others? What are your thoughts about it?

  32. Demographic blocking next? by RalphSlate · · Score: 1

    This is just capitalism in action. This is a variation of the "free rider" problem.

    The logical extension of restricting entire countries because you can't derive revenue from them is to block *any* group of users that you can't derive revenue from if you can figure out how to do that.

    The corollary is that you want to attract customers who you *are* likely to derive revenue from, so you create content to appeal to those groups.

    If the marketing geniuses figure out that senior citizens are "unprofitable" as internet consumers, maybe that means blocking that group. Of course, that will probably anger people who realize that someday, they will be old and will therefore be blocked, so the strategy could backfire. It's a lot easier to block people from, say, Africa, because that affects someone else, a group that most consumers can't picture ever joining. It's also a group that can be blocked as a group without sacrificing valuable users.

  33. Makes no sense by bjourne · · Score: 1

    How come Africans with pipes fat enough to watch streaming video are to poor to buy whatever crap that is advertised? Bandwith can't be that cheap in the 3rd world. Will adblock users be next? After all, we're just freeloading on the content and don't even see the ads.

  34. So the developing country's netizens... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ...are nothing but a bunch of window shoppers, eh? Welcome to the world of retail where clerks have been forever been frustrated when asking the question "May I help you?" and being told "Nah. I'm just looking.".

    Expect to see more of that by visitors from the developed world as unemployment continues to rise over the next year or so (if you believe the news) and their disposable income prevents them from buying as much as you need to maintain your websites and pay your advertisers.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  35. rn by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    This server replicates postings to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to be read everywhere.

    Are you absolutely sure that you want to do this? [yn]

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  36. Re:Contribute or be Cut Off by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry to tell you that after 8 years of Dubya, yes, they would.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  37. Re:Contribute or be Cut Off by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    He was one of the comedy bits.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  38. A Brazilian Perspective by acid06 · · Score: 1

    As a native Brazilian who has worked in the past for American web companies, I know the two sides of the coin and right now there's really no good solution.

    I noticed some other users mentioning that local sites *are* indeed profitable in third world countries and that's true. However, they have much lower operating costs, since its employees are cheaper to maintain. Also, each country has specific characteristics and it would be too expensive for a global service to customize their site to meet every single country needs, while a one-country-only service can do that easily.

    The real issue is that ads pay much lower for a Brazilian click than they pay for a click coming from the US, for the same keywords. While a US ad would pay more than a dollar per-click, it's difficult to get more than a quarter per-click in Brazil. While the local companies can survive with the reduced revenue, it's not enough for US companies to survive.

    Finally, from my own personal experience as a Brazilian who never lived outside of Brazil, I can say this the worst drawback really is what I call "the third world mindset". People just *won't pay* for internet services here. It's very very very difficult to make people to accept the concept of paying to access some website, specially after they're already spoiled as everything has been free on the internet so far.

    Some users said people are willing to pay but they can't do it. This is not true. I use PayPal several times a year. It accepts my credit cards without any issues whatsoever. Most people have an international credit card and a lot of people buy online from the Brazilian online retailers. The difference is that they're buying *tangible* products or services.

    Even in the poorer areas, where there's no broadband, people will go to "LAN houses" (how we call "Internet Cafes" here) and spend maybe a dollar a day for internet access (nevermind the fact that with $30/month they could actually get broadband at home). The point is, if they spend $30/month, they could easily afford paying maybe $3/month for, say, social network usage. However, they would never do it.

    I've tried to convince a lot of people that pirating games is wrong. Even people who aspire to be game developers. Even smart people have trouble understanding why they should pay for something they can get for free. What are the benefits of buying a legitimate game versus a counterfeit copy. And so on.

    It's a culture problem and you can't fix culture in a short time. So I just wish luck to those web entrepreneurs adventures in the muddy waters of the third world web economy.

  39. Online Advertising results in profit? by warrior_s · · Score: 1

    I don't understand why would anyone buy anything by clicking on the ads appearing on webpages? I usually google the thing I want to buy, or just go to amazon, buy.com etc for price comparison. I don't think I will ever buy anything by clicking on ads. It is surprising to me that online ads can help sustain companies. Can someone please enlighten me? Thanks!

  40. PROXY even any coome drunk on vodka knows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't like ban lists, use a proxy. Suck them dry and have a battalion of zombies download crap from their servers until they go out of biz. Do it know fellow cretins, do it now !!!!!!

  41. No more Colbert/Daily Show :( by fleco · · Score: 0

    I don't know if the guys at Viacom just realized this, but I'm no longer able to access Colbert/The Daily Show.
    Thanks /.!

  42. Not in YOUR lifetime - steal because they don't ca by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like russia, lots of money (online?) but the ideal in russia is you don't pay for stuff you can steal. That's the way it is and it is not going to change because someone starts "selling" it. That's so stupid to think that will change.

  43. Let the users pay for the magic bullet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The obvious answer is to distribute videos and other bandwidth-heavy content through a peer-to-peer mechanism such as Bittorrent."

    Well no that's not the obvious answer because P2P isn't some magic bullet that will solve world hunger nor economic nonparticipants.

    1. Re:Let the users pay for the magic bullet. by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Hey, I only said it was the obvious answer, not necessarily the right answer...

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  44. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . Is YOU by grcumb · · Score: 2, Informative

    Clearing the rights isn't an issue with the mass of amateur youtube uploads and the like; but costs of delivery are (at best) constant across the world(at worst, they are likely to be rather higher in poorer areas) and expected revenue certainly isn't constant.

    NOTE: This post may appear to be a trifle bitter in tone. That's because it is.

    Let me speak from my personal experience of living these last 5+ years in a developing country: It's the developed world's own goddamn fault that we don't pay for things online.

    The cost of delivering the content is constant for the provider. The cost for the receiver, on the other hand, is insanely high. I'm sharing a 128Kbps ADSL line with 2 others right now, at a total price of about US $55 per month. A 256Kbps line costs US $150. A 512Kbps line is about US $350 (recently reduced from $440). The only reason for this pricing is a monopoly on Internet services jointly controlled by France Telecom and Cable & Wireless.

    For reference, the monthly minimum wage (for the minority who actually have work) is about US $250.

    But even if we could download things, we couldn't pay for them online, because credit cards are virtually impossible to get from local banks. And by local banks, I mean of course franchises of Australian giants ANZ and Westpac.

    We can't get credit cards because we have bad credit ratings. We have bad credit ratings because the average interest rate for a first-time borrower is 23%.

    But most of us can't even get a first loan because the one collateral we have, customary land holdings, is not accepted unless it's been leased to someone or commercialised in some way. Most people are not willing to sell their birthright - and their children's only wealth - just for a good credit rating.

    But even if we could get a local credit card, the majority of sites online won't accept them because of the risk, coming as it does from a country with (surprise!) poor credit history.

    Debit services like Paypal don't even know we exist. Suddenly, the fact that our banks are franchises of regional giants has no bearing on anything.

    To sum up: So you don't want to let me access your content? How terribly surprisingly. Fuck you very much and have a nice fucking day.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  45. sucks to be an expat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone who spends a large part of the year in developing countries, I'm constantly annoyed by the 'content not available in your country' error.

    And they say the internet doesn't follow borders . . .

  46. (lazy) anonymous coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep free content freely available by reducing availability costs and setting up infrastructure to not rely on advertising profits or other participatory "gimmicks" to maintain content access.

    Utilize and expand the already present BitTorrent protocol (quit streaming from centralized servers... Why not set up your streaming video to utilize a modified BitTorrent platform that also promotes user interaction among not just the users, but the people who host the files too?)

    Distribution of content must be rewarding in itself if content is truly free or remain freely available, and his is true for all parties involved.

  47. Short term vision ... long term fail by gordguide · · Score: 1

    Okay, let me just introduce you to a place I once knew well. It was a place called the internet, circa 1999.
    Back then, apparently, I was a pioneer. I bought all my software and some of my computer hardware online.
    In 2001, I spent four figures online, when no-one else spent much of anything (according to the stats, anyway).
    One year after that, I spent five figures online. Just barely, but still.
    Today, if I don't need to eat it, or test it, I don't even shop locally, and I spend $20K online every year. That is roughly 70% of my disposable income.
    No, really. I buy everything online. I buy all my clothes online; all my electronics; all my music, all my movies. Not some ... ALL OF IT.
    This year ... all of my kitchen appliances were bought online. My espresso machine. My coffee grinder. My pot rack. My blender.

    Did I mention I don't live in the US? Did I mention that at least 50% of all that spending was with US merchants?

    Okay, let me put it this way. Introduce 10-year ad contracts. You can sign up for whatever, but the guys who sign up for 10 years get a break today and a guarantee that I will have ad space for you in 2019. Everyone else? Not so much.

    Now tell me that you are losing money, and that there is no value in catering to those "money losing" second and third world countries.

    Trust me ... Amazon knew what they were doing. Everyone else plays catchup today. A smart social network plays the reality of future eyes to advertisers versus building a presence today. Those who think only of today are welcome to today, because today turns into yesterday at a very predictable rate.

    Sure, there is no money in it in 2009. This just in ... 2009 turns into 2010, and not at some random moment (like the stock market) but in exactly x number of days.

    If you can't see the profit in that, you deserve to be left behind. And you will.

  48. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . Is YOU by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    I am curious to find out which country you live in. It must be somewhere close to here (aus) because you mentioned Westpac et al.

  49. Re: Yes Money = Money! by neutrino38 · · Score: 1

    Finally we can see here the limits of the so called "Internet Model" were company provide services for free in return for advertisments. Maybe the entry of devevelopping world in the Web arena will promote back the old reasonnable model where you actually sell something (a good or a service) and customers buy if it meets their need with at the proper price point

  50. A 27" CRT is 0 USD by tepples · · Score: 1

    32" HD LCD it's around $450 USD

    And a 27" SD CRT is around 0 USD because you own it and it still works. A lot of people aren't going to want to pay 450 USD just for the privilege of watching YouTube or whatever on a larger monitor. Case in point: During the transition to digital television in the United States, far more people paid 50 USD for an ATSC tuner to watch major-label broadcast TV than 50 USD for a VGA-to-S-Video converter to watch independent IPTV.

    1. Re:A 27" CRT is 0 USD by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Those tuners only cost $10 thanks to the government forcing corporations to hand-over free $40 coupons.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:A 27" CRT is 0 USD by tepples · · Score: 1

      Then what should proponents of independent IPTV be doing in a country where the median family owns a CRT SDTV and a PC without S-Video output?

  51. By the way... by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 1

    What happened to last.fm?

  52. Re:Part of the online video problem . . . Is YOU by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

    On the other hand, your country isn't carrying a national debt like the United States, which amounts to $110,000 per home and climbing ($170,000 by 2016). From my viewpoint, you're actually better off because you are not on the verge of bankruptcy like we are.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall