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Styling Web Pages With CSS

r3lody writes "Styling Web Pages with CSS: Visual QuickProject Guide, by Tom Negrino and Dori Smith, helps the beginning web designer learn how to use CSS in a simple, easy-to-follow format. This being my first exposure to one of the Visual QuickProject Guides by Peachpit Press, I was both pleased and disappointed when I received this slim volume. I was pleased in the presentation and clear descriptions given to each aspect of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). I was disappointed in the brevity of the text, and the lack of downloadable materials to use to follow the examples in the book." Read below for the rest of Ray's review. Styling Web Pages with CSS: Visual QuickProject Guide author Tom Negrino and Dori Smith pages 144 publisher Peachpit Press rating 7/10 reviewer Ray Lodato ISBN 0321555570 summary A beginner's guide to the proper use of CSS Each chapter starts with a brief explanation of its subject, followed by the major topics introduced via large, colorful titles. Finally, any "Extra Bits" provide follow-up explanations or point to where you can get further information.

Before any CSS is discussed, there is a general introduction including how the book is structured, the sample web site to be created, and what tools will be useful to create the site. For the tools, the authors recommend at least a text editor (not a word processor) and your favorite browser. BBEdit and TextWrangler are suggested for Mac owners, while Notepad is okay for Windows. I personally use Notepad++, which has styling cues for both HTML and CSS (as well as many others), so I would recommend it for Windows users. To insure compatibility with the browser, Tom and Dori say you should have Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Safari. Strangely, Opera is barely mentioned in the book. I tested the examples using the first two. Finally, a true CSS editor might be useful, as it will provide you with your options. They suggested MacRabbit's CSSEdit for Mac users, or WesternCIV's Style Master for either Macs or Windows. I used Style Master 4.6 for Windows during testing.

After the introductory chapter, CSS is explained starting with a chapter on the basics, with simple guidelines for their use. Classes (which can be used many times) are contrasted with ids (which can be used only once per HTML file), and the benefits of using external style sheets versus internal styles is explained.

The next three chapters build upon each other to provide gentle instruction on how to layout and style the text and images. Formatting menus, tables and headings are tackled next, followed by a chapter devoted to browser differences. Finally, alternative menu and page formatting and CSS debugging is discussed.

All of the major concepts of CSS are presented so that a beginner can easily understand them. While some ways of utilizing CSS properly can be the subject of debate, the authors have chosen a rational approach that serves the basic web designer well. The result is a set of web pages that follow a simply understood design, yet ensures that the layout and format is isolated to the CSS style document, rather than the HTML.

Over and over, Tom and Dori provide useful links to web sites with additional information on the intricacies of CSS, as well as providing suggestions for programs to help you with massaging images and references to other books for more in-depth coverage.

The best way to fully understand what Tom and Dori are trying to explain is to replicate the example web site (Alpaca Repo). Unfortunately, there is no link in the book or on PeachPit's web site to a set of downloadable images and html files. The only way I was able to replicate most (but not all) of the examples was to look at alpacarepo.com. It has six pages, two style sheets, and two photos. The book shows other photos and more complete pages, so it's a partial solution at best.

Overall, Styling Web Pages with CSS: Visual QuickProject Guide is a nice introduction to the potentially confusing topic of the proper use of CSS. Many of the fancier techniques are avoided for the more common and useful ones. The short length of the book allows the beginner to avoid the feeling of intimidation that can accompany reading a 1,000 page text that covers everything you never wanted to know. Even so, I felt less than satisfied after I finished. I wanted a little bit more than I was given. Even if the book doubled in size, it would still be accessible yet it could then leave the reader with a feeling of contentment. As this is the first QuickProject book I've read, that may simply be the target they were shooting for.

One final wish for Peachpit: please include downloadable files that the reader can access to duplicate the Alpaca Repo website. I was continually frustrated when I wanted to replicate what I had just read about, yet was missing JPEG files or extensive text that I could use. Consequently, I never felt as though I had actually gotten the hang of CSS.

You can purchase Styling Web Pages with CSS: Visual QuickProject Guide from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews — to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

104 comments

  1. Fail by peterdaly · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fail.

    They missed the chapter on how to encrypt DVD.

    1. Re:Fail by MrEricSir · · Score: 2, Funny

      They could tell you, but they would have to sue you.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:Fail by flahwho · · Score: 1

      did you mean decrypt perhaps?

    3. Re:Fail by FunkyELF · · Score: 1

      No, that would be DeCSS. Duh!

  2. Yes! by Surrounded · · Score: 4, Funny

    My castle built of Web Design books is almost complete! I was getting worried I couldn't finish the second guest house and 3 story arcade, phew.

    1. Re:Yes! by Intron · · Score: 3, Funny

      Also, I would like to announce the 10,000th reference to CSS Zen Garden which by law has to be mentioned in every /. story about web design.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    2. Re:Yes! by fatphil · · Score: 4, Funny

      I ought to mention the CSS Zen Compost Heap then, as that never gets any references! (OK, that's blatent self-promotion, I won't deny it.)

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  3. W3 Schools by GordonCopestake · · Score: 5, Informative

    I always recommend the W3 Schools web site for beginners. It's free and contains enough info to get anyone off to a good start. http://www.w3schools.com/

    1. Re:W3 Schools by TheMightyFuzzball · · Score: 2, Informative

      I completely agree with this comment, I learned a LOT from w3schools, every now and then when I forget something it is a quick reference, really great site. I just wish they though XHTML by default though, other than that they are amazing!

    2. Re:W3 Schools by bluej100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quite right. The interactive examples make it a far better learning experience than a book.

    3. Re:W3 Schools by fm6 · · Score: 1

      The interactive examples make it a far better learning experience than a book.

      Not to mention the sheer coolness of that feature.

      I've always found it ironic that there are so many books about the web. Authors trying to tell you how great the web is and what you can do with it, but not using it themselves. This author didn't even put his examples online. I stopped reading the review when I saw that.

    4. Re:W3 Schools by jrade · · Score: 1

      Agreed, w3schools is best.
      --
      Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something - Plato

      --

      Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at Sig.setCleverSig(Sig.java:42)
    5. Re:W3 Schools by TLLOTS · · Score: 1
  4. lack of downloadable materials? by qtzlctl · · Score: 3, Informative

    View -> Source

    Solves it.

    1. Re:lack of downloadable materials? by jsnipy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Firebug -> inspect Solves it. Better.

      --
      -- if you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
    2. Re:lack of downloadable materials? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Uh, did you notice that this is a printed book?

    3. Re:lack of downloadable materials? by qtzlctl · · Score: 1

      perhaps I didn't expand on that enough:

      Go to ANY website and view it's source. Figure out why some things in the code work differently than others. Play around with the CSS and see how each change either breaks/shifts elements and gives you insight into the whole process. There's more "live" material to study on the web than there will ever be in a book.

    4. Re:lack of downloadable materials? by bob.appleyard · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you did that it might be in Latex or something (I don't know what the cool kids use). Definitely not HTML, anyway.

      --
      How dare you be so modest!! You conceited bastard!!
  5. Dont' bash CSS... by Smidge207 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've found a lot of people who are stuck on table layouts are stuck because they can only think of HTML pages in terms of how tables work. You have to break free from that mindset and CSS design makes much more sense.

    After designing sites for 10 years, 3 of those in the dark ages of tables, I wouldn't touch tables with 100 foot pole. But if using tables makes it easier for you, more power to you. It's just really sad to see people bash CSS because it's too hard for them to implement.

    =Smidge=

    --
    Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
    1. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by AutopsyReport · · Score: 1

      It's just really sad to see people bash CSS

      This also applies to the idea of using tables.

      --

      For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

    2. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

      But if using tables makes it easier for you, more power to you. It's just really sad to see people bash CSS because it's too hard for them to implement.

      I was under a strange impression that CSS could be used for styling tables (minus cellpadding and cellspacing). Silly me. :)

      --
      Reply to That ||
    3. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've found a lot of people who are stuck on table layouts are stuck because they can only think of HTML pages in terms of how tables work. You have to break free from that mindset and CSS design makes much more sense.

      After designing sites for 10 years, 3 of those in the dark ages of tables, I wouldn't touch tables with 100 foot pole. But if using tables makes it easier for you, more power to you. It's just really sad to see people bash CSS because it's too hard for them to implement.

      I've not been doing direct web design for a while and I just use tables whenever something comes up simply because I know it works. I've tried looking into other techniques but it usually boils down to "I have enough time to do it a way I know works but not enough time to research a better way."

      I know awesome stuff can be dones, Garden of CSS proves it, but I'm surprised I don't see those techniques applied on other sites anywhere. Where do the designers who created those templates go for work?

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    4. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by xonar · · Score: 1

      I've found that there's not a lot of easily searchable information regarding converting to pure div usage (maybe 2-3 sites that don't go into nearly enough detail). Any good links?

    5. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

      Where do the designers who created those templates go for work?

      They build houses with CSS?

      --
      Reply to That ||
    6. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Intron · · Score: 1

      Actually, the W3C tutorial is not a bad place to start. They seem to think they know something about CSS.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    7. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      CSS and tables are not opposites. CSS can be used to style tables.

      These days, anyone doing web page development without CSS, tables or no, probably just woke up from a multi-year coma.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    8. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're right, there's nothing wrong with tables. We should be bashing people who use tables for layout. (Over the head with a blunt object, if necessary.)

    9. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by bugbeak · · Score: 1

      Well, if one has to constantly modify CSS because different browsers interpret the same code differently, it's no wonder some people bash it. Heck, even some people who have been using CSS for quite the while bash it.

    10. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right but not entirely. Tables still have their use in newsletters and mobile devices. Oh and by the way, good luck styling a forum with lists or with nested divs soup.

    11. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by hattig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well for showing tabular data, HTML tables are what you should use. I think a lot of people hear "don't use tables" and don't hear the "for layout" at the end.

      CSS layouts are actually quite easy until you want a non-trivial layout (there are some gotchas that have simple answers, and there are cross-browser compatibility issues with IE6 usually), and the latter is unlikely to happen for a person who isn't doing web design as the primary role. It's worth investing a few hours to learn it, it makes the HTML so much quicker to write, and easier to read.

    12. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by rho · · Score: 1

      If you're going to design HTML emails, you'd better use tables. CSS support in mail clients is spotty at best.

      I suspect that most people use tables because either that's how their WYSIWYG editor does it or they tried to do it in CSS and ran into the multitude of problems doing something that should be simple but CSS makes excruciating. Reliably centering your container DIV is not perfectly straightforward, and that's about as rat-simple as you can get.

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    13. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's a few things, IMO, that CSS simply can't do for layouts that tables solve easily, or if it can be done in CSS, it becomes a lot more complicated and "hackey" than using simple tables.

      I avoid tables, but that doesn't mean they aren't the best way to accomplish some layouts, and the only way to achieve certain goals. I think the worst problem is when you get nested table within nested table.

      I've actually had people tell me that for certain dynamic content I should use javascript to adjust CSS just to avoid using a table, as if that makes things better.

      Most of the problems I've encountered with CSS has to do with centering content.

      A simple one or two cell table isn't going to ruin any page readers.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    14. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That's my opinion, as well... most of the problems revolve around centering, but multi-column displays can be very "hackey" with CSS, especially with dynamic content in which you can't tell which column will be the tallest.

      I think nested tables are terrible, but a simple table for layout works a lot better than really complex CSS that doesn't ever seem to do quite what you want anyway, and is inconsistent between browsers.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    15. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Steauengeglase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      CSS isn't the problem, broken browsers are.

    16. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      There's a few things, IMO, that CSS simply can't do for layouts that tables solve easily, or if it can be done in CSS, it becomes a lot more complicated and "hackey" than using simple tables.

      I avoid tables, but that doesn't mean they aren't the best way to accomplish some layouts, and the only way to achieve certain goals. I think the worst problem is when you get nested table within nested table.

      I've actually had people tell me that for certain dynamic content I should use javascript to adjust CSS just to avoid using a table, as if that makes things better.

      Most of the problems I've encountered with CSS has to do with centering content.

      A simple one or two cell table isn't going to ruin any page readers.

      Dunno who the muppet was who modded you troll but he's obviously a wanker.

      The cross-browser stuff kills me. Back when I did do web stuff full-time, CSS was around but it remained more theoretical than practical because no two browsers. It was like what Gandhi said when asked about western civilization: "I think it would be a good idea."

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    17. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm... Not trying to be a smartass here, but click "View Source" right now.

      I have no problem styling my forums without using tables for layout. Same with pretty much everyone but you, apparently.

    18. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We should be bashing people who use tables for layout.

      I do it all the time. Beats shaky CSS implementations that fail every time cross-browser. My pages appear nearly identical in every browser (including text-browsers with support for tables), in emails, and on portable devices. Sorry but, there is no reason to change what works for the benefit of utopian css purists.

    19. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Dunno who the muppet was who modded you troll but he's obviously a wanker.

      Yeah... I didn't want to whine about it, though, although I still can't see how it got that moderation.

      The cross-browser stuff kills me. Back when I did do web stuff full-time, CSS was around but it remained more theoretical than practical because no two browsers.

      I develop intranet sites and I work on Linux; most (not all) of the uses use IE, and I keep forgetting to throw in the "disappearing text" IE bug fix... extra CSS modifier to make text not disappear in IE. Yes, it sucks.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    20. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      And what about bashing tables? Tables are part of the XHTML spec and should be used for tabular data.

      I think too many people get obsessed about being anti-tables because some people have abused them in the past for layout. But that doesn't mean tables don't have their place in a modern website.

    21. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

      I've found that there's not a lot of easily searchable information regarding converting to pure div usage (maybe 2-3 sites that don't go into nearly enough detail). Any good links?

      I was considering to put one together, a really complete reference,.... BUT I would build the page out to have a table layout, with div wrappers inside each td holding the content, and then see how many emails I get about it. ;)

      --
      Reply to That ||
    22. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by dtml-try+MyNick · · Score: 1

      You're not alone my.... ;)

      http://giveupandusetables.com/

      --
      Life starts at the end of your comfort zone.
    23. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tables are horribly overused, but css can't replace them (yet) for some multicolumn layouts.

    24. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I only do it for older web browsers that fail in the CSS department quite badly but still support Table.

      Yes, the numbers of browsers like that are in the minority, the very very small minority, but i like to keep support for everything, regardless of age. :)

    25. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      If you are still using tables you are not able to write semantically correct HTML, which is a must IMO for SEO and accessibility/ADA compliance. It's not about "utopian css purists". there is a real benefit to separating content from layout.

    26. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by ieatcookies · · Score: 1

      I understand the argument, CSS is presentation, HTML is a description or holder of data.. Tables for tabular data becuase it descibes it, CSS for layouts and position becuase it presents it.. But honestly, choose the best solution for the situation. IF you've got a designer that can put your three page static marketing site up in a table layout in 2 hours, I say problem solved. It pays to understand the technology, but also pays to use common sense in decision making for breaking the rules.

      This rant was funded by the many, many, many purist idealists that have argued this point in the past.

    27. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny. No one here bashed CSS in this thread. You just brought it up out of the blue LOL. Basically, you came the closest to bashing CSS by bringing this up.

      This post reminds me of those people who CONSTANTLY mention they never watch Television.

    28. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by el_gordo101 · · Score: 1

      A List Apart has some very good pure CSS layout guides. This particular link is for a layout with header and footer, fixed width left and right columns, and a "fluid" center content section.

      --
      TODO: Insert witty sig
    29. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look over the source of phpbb, invision board, smf, phorum and perhaps any other downloadable forum software. It's all tables.
      You may call them incompetent I'm sure, but the truth is there are still places where css lacks, for example it's next to impossible to make two divs share the same height and you're stuck wich cheap hacks such as faux columns or the almighty javascript.

    30. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't care who's fault it is, I just want to code something once and have it look *reasonably similar* all platforms. Hacky code that is short and simple is better than complicated, "elegant" solutions.

      I've been using CSS for years and am one of the "complainers". It seems to have been conceived *by* graphics artists, *for* graphics artists. Look at the terms they use: "styling pages", like it's hair or something. I *BUILD* pages out of nerdy, reusable components that need to render cleanly in lots of different combinations.

      I don't mind separating presentation from layout, etc. And there's a lot about CSS to like. But you shouldn't have to use "tricks" just to get basic things to work. It shouldn't be so "touchy". You shouldn't have to get it just right. It should be robust, tolerant and forgiving just like the HTML is was designed to augment.

      And most important of all to me, you should be able to tightly bind a style directly to an element such that it's guaranteed to apply AND nothing else will apply or override based on magical rules and priorities.

    31. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

      That's my opinion, as well... most of the problems revolve around centering, but multi-column displays can be very "hackey" with CSS, especially with dynamic content in which you can't tell which column will be the tallest.

      I've finally gotten used to thinking in CSS, and can create most common layouts from memory and (usually) in a non-hacky way (maybe one or two container divs, but nothing too atrocious).

      I just wish the purist dipshits would let us have float: center*, and vertical centering while they're at it. It should not be easier to do positioning like that with the wrong tools than with the right one.

      * No, float: center would not be the same thing as "margin: 0px auto".

    32. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      This is true. Recently I was doing the database and related php code for an autoparts site. To display part #, make/model/year, and price, I had a PHP loop that printed the output to a table, which was in a div with classes added to the various elements, and handed it off the graphics people. The designer went ape-shit because I had defiled his grand design with tables, and how tables should never appear in a "web 2.0" site and some other bullshit.

      I don't know what the hell they teach in design school, but when you have tabular data, use a table. I even showed him a few websites that said just that: use CSS for layout, tables for displaying tables of information.

      I like CSS for a lot of reasons. But it is also a fucking pain in the ass, primarily thanks to IE.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    33. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Whether a web developer can write semantically correct HTML is of little import if browsers can't render it. How many web sites have to worry more about ADA compliance than being rendered correctly?

    34. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by raphael75 · · Score: 1

      I work as a front end web programmer for one of the world's largest ministries. We have 4 major websites. I haven't found anything that can't be done with CSS. If you really understand how div's work you can do anything with CSS.

      Tables are a relic, although I agree with the other posters that for stuff that's purely tabular data tables are fine. Although there is display:table... ;)

    35. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by raphael75 · · Score: 1

      While a house built with css is quite epic, the way he did it (making thousands of 1px high divs to simulate gradients) is not very efficient (but it is very creative).

      It is nice to know that gradients can be made this way in an emergency situation if for some reason you couldn't fire up Paint Shop Pro and make a gradient in 20 seconds and set background-repeat:repeat-x.

    36. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by prozaker · · Score: 1

      whats the compatibility of display:table?
      or actually, does it work in ie6?

    37. Re:Dont' bash CSS... by TLLOTS · · Score: 1

      I would suggest that if a web developer is incapable of making browsers render the same site consistently using CSS then they have a great deal more to learn. The problems with cross browser rendering issues have long since been solved.

  6. Stay Tuned.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This is just a shameless plug for my upcoming book entitled, Why the World Needs Another Book on CSS

  7. Alternative suggestion by Smivs · · Score: 2, Informative

    While the reviewed book sounds useful, I got my first real understanding of CSS from "CSS-The Missing Manual" by David Sawyer McFarland (O'Reilly). This book probably goes into more detail than the reviewed book, but keeps it simple and keeps it fun. Also there is plenty of on-line support and referencing. Before, my CSS was patchy but this book brought together all the loose threads really well. I'm sure it would also be of great help to those with little or no experience of CSS.

    1. Re:Alternative suggestion by Pugwash69 · · Score: 1

      I have this book too. I even emailed the author about his excessive use of the word "bunch" and he answered in good humour. Good book though.

      --
      Pro Coffee Drinker
    2. Re:Alternative suggestion by chartreuse · · Score: 1

      I'll third this. It's an excellent book.

  8. The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by Smidge207 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe in a few years CSS (and the browser base) with catchup, but the blue-sky designers of CSS did practically everything in their power to make CSS layouts difficult (if not impossible) to use.

    Everything from the infamous box model (padding the INSIDE of a box requires a change in it's OUTSIDE dimensions? Excuse me, WTF?) to positioning nonsense (the height of an absolutely positioned object has no effect on its container) contribute greatly to the number of hacks and other measures needed to create even simple layouts.

    Add cross-browser-specific nonsense and the whole thing simply bogs down.

    Yes, separation of data and presentation is desirable. Yes, it's POSSIBLE to do so. But all too often it takes round-after-round of testing and retesting, only to find that the Opera patch breaks IE (again).

    =Smidge=

    --
    Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
    1. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by Cryogenic+Specter · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think that you have it all wrong. The complexity is not in the CSS standard, it is in the IMPLEMENTATION that was non standard across browsers.

    2. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by gfxguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe in some (or even most cases), but with the complaint about padding and the box model, he's spot on... it's right there in the spec and it's absolutely ridiculous.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    3. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by secretcurse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wait, so a little bit above you say anyone that gripes about CSS is just griping because they're too dumb to use it. Now you gripe that it's too complicated to use. Are you just a troll?

      --
      I'm using all of my mod points to mod ancient memes down. Please join me.
    4. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (sigh) The content area is the core box. Padding, border, and margin are optional areas, and adding any areas adds to the effective layout size. But the specified width and height of the box always applies to the content area. It cannot apply to anything else because everything else is optional.

      It's only logical. People who don't get it somehow think the border, an optional visual element, delineates the "edge" of a box.

      CSS itself is difficult because it's powerful. So be it - the architects had to make layout code that would work across unknown viewport sizes. We've never had to do this before in any media. It's a hard concept to deal with as designers. Getting pissy with the architects for delivering (quite quickly) excellent code for this new reality is incredibly stupid.

      Real-world CSS is a fucking pain in the ass because our browser makers have consistently given us incomplete and broken CSS support, year after year since 1996. Take three browsers with three unique failures and we've lost nine key elements of a language of expression. Don't blame the CSS architects for that. It's a tribute to how powerful they made CSS that we've been able to use it at all.

      I mean my god, we still don't have full support for absolutely crucial expressions like min-width and max-width. It's a disgrace.

      What can be argued about is whether CSS was designed properly from the point of view of creating editors. The orginal idea was that your "browser" would be your editor. One port to view and to publish. You can do that with HTML. I suspect it's impossible to make WYSIWYG for correct CSS, and that's a real problem.

      This have given us the current web of professional publishers and amateurs using templates -- Flickr, WordPress, etc etc. In the end you've got to know how to hand-code CSS if you're going to make correct code. That's a big problem.

      I'm reluctant to blame the architects because of the timeframe they had to work in. The sudden explosion of table-layout meant they had to provide working code fast. And they did. How to make WYSIWYG for it was left for the future to figure out. But I don't see light at the end of the tunnel for that problem.

      Anyway, not trying to flame you directly Smidge. As you well know, dealing with this crap tends to make the passion rise.

    5. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by Parallax48 · · Score: 1

      If you want a wysiwyg editor for CSS, I think that Stylizer comes pretty close. I am a happy owner of this software. As a fulltime C++ programmer / part-time DJango developer I don't have time to learn / edit CSS any other way.

    6. Re:The problem w/ CSS is complexity of use... by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      The padding mentality is indeed different from the one we had on tables. Whether increasing padding makes the box enlarge or simply shrinks the available content inside it, is (for me), a matter of arbitrary choice. However, I was, too, very comfused and felt very wrong about it when I first encountered it.

      If the inside and outside box are floated, then the outside box will stretch. You can then remove the "floatness" in the next div (with float:none). But you already knew that, didn't you? :)

  9. Head Wrapper by Cryogenic+Specter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I recently devoted many hours to learning CSS and found a couple of things to be true.

    1. W3Schools is way useful.
    2. browser differences make using CSS a pain in the butt.
    3. using CSS makes for tight HTML that you can easily read and write without a WYSIWYG editor.
    4. ie6 sucks
    5. ie7 sucks
    6. Make your site work with Firefox and then break it to work with IE.
    7. Wrapping your head around CSS and all of the intricacies of floating elements, fluid site design and ADA considerations is a little tough and a lot frustrating, but once you understand it, you wonder why anyone would do it another way.

    1. Re:Head Wrapper by WarwickRyan · · Score: 1

      Shame that I don't have any mod points, as you've wrapped up everything which is wrong with CSS.

      It's an real shame, because CSS's boxing model is an beautiful idea. It's just an shame that the 'biggest' implementations are so poor that using 'tables' is often the easier solution.

    2. Re:Head Wrapper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And soon to be: 8. ie8 sucks

    3. Re:Head Wrapper by sakdoctor · · Score: 2, Informative

      I love a good IE or MS bash as much as the next person, but IE8 CSS support is vastly improved, bordering on satisfactory.

      They even added a handy "make page look like shit" button for IE users who get nostalgic.

    4. Re:Head Wrapper by Cryogenic+Specter · · Score: 1

      I agree. IE8 is still IE, but it is a LOT better for CSS support. In fact, what I have had to do is remove all of the plain [if IE] statements and replace with version specific style sheets because the plain [if IE] statement resolves for IE8 and makes life harder. IE8 has actually been able to use my regular style sheets for Firefox and what not with no problems! Surprise Surprise Surprise

    5. Re:Head Wrapper by djbckr · · Score: 1

      Please, for the love of God, just use the Yahoo User Interface. Specifically use the Reset Font Grids. Makes the browser incompatibles almost non-existent.

  10. CSS is Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    http://www.zazzle.com/css_is_awesome_mug-168716435071981928

    1. Re:CSS is Awesome by Steauengeglase · · Score: 3, Funny

      Damn coffee mug based browsers.

    2. Re:CSS is Awesome by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

      Looks like it's the code's fault, actually. Possibly a div container with floated contents and poorly-thought-out overflow control. Things like that are pretty damn common, especially if you start cranking up the text size in your browser.

      They're also not likely to go anywhere unless managers and clients start valuing extremely high accessibility over prettier, more precisely laid out pages with somewhat lower accessibility. God knows I've made pages that go all to hell if you set the font size too high, and I doubt many professional web developers can say that they haven't.

  11. Firebug by Lorde · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you're going to do web design with CSS, there's an awesome Firefox extension to ease the pain of constantly saving and reloading. Firebug (https://addons.mozilla.org/sv-SE/firefox/addon/1843) lets you inspect and edit HTML and CSS, among other things, in real-time while browsing. Once you start using it you really don't understand how you managed to survive without it.

    1. Re:Firebug by Cryogenic+Specter · · Score: 1

      Yes, firebug is a must! There is also a tool for IE7 (built into ie8), I think that it is called IE Developer Tools. It is useful too. It is by far not as good as Firebug, but you do not have that as an option in IE.

    2. Re:Firebug by A.+B3ttik · · Score: 1

      Agreed. As a site developer, I will SWEAR by Firebug.

    3. Re:Firebug by afabbro · · Score: 1

      Agreed. As a site developer, I will SWEAR by Firebug.

      OK. Please do so.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    4. Re:Firebug by Kashell · · Score: 0

      Don't forget about Web Developer Tools:

      Saves me from horrible javascript debugging.
      https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60

  12. CSS Mug by ajayrockrock · · Score: 3, Funny

    CSS is Awesome!

    It's a joke, I love CSS. :)

    1. Re:CSS Mug by Cryogenic+Specter · · Score: 1

      Dude, that is funny. :( i have no mod points.

    2. Re:CSS Mug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks for the link, very funny

  13. Don't Blame CSS, Blame... by WebmasterNeal · · Score: 1

    browsers with poor CSS support aka Internet Exploder. Almost always, if somebody is complaining about how difficult CSS is, it's related to the time they had to waste getting something to render properly in IE. Now we're blessed with IE8 which contains it's own bastardized versions of IE8-6 and IE8-7 which I've found have inconsistencies with their native IE6 and IE7 counterparts. Oh the humanity!

    I've ran into numerous web workers who still prefer to use tables. Often times they are either beginners or workers who grew up with table-based layouts. I guess I'm in the 'middle generation' of web designers who only suffered a couples years with tables and moved on.

    --
    "During My Service In The United States Congress, I Took The Initiative In Creating The Internet." -Al Gore
  14. Not Just for Beginners by fm6 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Web design is something I don't do on a regular basis, so I often have to google for information on constructs and idioms I'm rusty on or never learned. Half the time I end up on the W3 Schools site. Each topic is nicely self-contained, simple, and clear, making the site an excellent reference source. Best of all, there's a dynamic HTML "try it yourself" feature which lets you quickly tweak an example and immediately see the results.

    Over the years, this site has gotten slicker and added more and more content. All of which seems to be funded by a few non-obtrusive ads. Nice to see a web resource that provides a quality service and manages to make a living doing it.

  15. Outpost has the solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm tired of the browser wasting time downloading quarter-megabyte css files that change my fonts and screw up the page so I can't read it. I finally solved the problem when I discovered the Outpost firewall will stop .css files from downloading. Just add ".css" to the Ads plugin list and the entire problem disappears.

  16. How do you design a site? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If CSS has so many problems, what's the "popular" way to design websites now-a-days? I used to throw stuff in a table within a table within a table. Are people still doing that?

  17. The problem I had with CSS layout by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The last time I tried going to CSS from table layout, the thing that really frustrated me was that I couldn't do what seemed like a very simple thing. I couldn't center my page. With table layouts, laying out my page on a 700 or 1000-pixel-wide table, all I had to do was center said table to account for higher resolution desktops. I never could figure out how to do that with the absolute positioning in CSS. I could put the elements together with a nice layout, but I had to do that by absolute pixel specifications. There was no way to "group" the page together and then center it for higher resolutions. The result was a left-lopsided page at higher resolutions (as opposed to a nice centered page with a table layout).

    Now maybe I was just missing something or maybe something has come along to fix that since. But that was one of the reasons I stuck with table layouts, pain in the ass that they are. If anyone can enlighten me on how to do this in CSS, I'm all ears for sure.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:The problem I had with CSS layout by unfasten · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you enclose your content in a main container (it's also possible to just resize and use ) you can center by giving this div a width then setting the margins like so:

      div#container {
          margin: 0 auto;
          width: 700px;
      }

      This will set the left and right margins to auto and center the content. The following will also work:
      margin-left: auto;
      margin-right: auto;

    2. Re:The problem I had with CSS layout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, you wouldn't want to do it with absolute positioning. You'd want something like:

      #container {
      margin: auto auto;
      }

      [div id="container"]
      [!--your page that will be centered--]
      [/div]

      (changed to [] so they show..) ...and your page code would be within the container div. Of course, this would probably require you to learn to use floats. (lol)

    3. Re:The problem I had with CSS layout by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that make it impossible to position elements precisely though? Without absolute positioning, the graphics and layout drift all over the place.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:The problem I had with CSS layout by verbalcontract · · Score: 1

      It's better to use floats than use absolute positioning; it lets you use auto margins, and you'll have a lot more flexibility with your containing content.

  18. Less is More! by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

    > I was disappointed in the brevity of the text, and the lack of downloadable materials to use to follow the examples in the book.

    Being of 144 pages I think is a good size. Most of the books of > 200 pages are just filled with material that fits better in web references.

    CSS is not a complex topic, so a hundred of pages should be more than enough for a good explanation. BTW, I agree with your other complain.

    Now, a bit OT, but every time I see a diminishing necessity of using or learning the CSS details, as the authoring products and even web-widget programming libraries are doing a good work. It's a bit like learning the format/encodings of the JPG or GIF files.

    1. Re:Less is More! by eherot · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but I still encode all of my JPEG files by HAND using STONE TABLETS and I ENJOY IT!

  19. CSS has its problems by weston · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even in browsers where the support is great, CSS has its problems when it comes to layout. There are some things broken in the spec.

    It's a fantastic tool, I'd rather have it than not, but sometimes, tables are a better tool, and they'll likely remain that way.

  20. Bordering indeed by weston · · Score: 1

    I love a good IE or MS bash as much as the next person, but IE8 CSS support is vastly improved, bordering on satisfactory.

    Bordering on satisfactory for 2004. One of the world's biggest software companies, billions and billions of dollars of resources has managed to finally... catch up to where everybody else was five years ago. In the meanwhile, there's going to be no canvas support, they've made changes with VML that make using it for Canvas and other things more difficult, they're missing web fonts and rounded borders. And why *are* they investing so much time in their own rendering engine just to play distant catch-up, when embedding one of their rather worthy competitors would be pretty easy? There's almost no other reason *except* that they plan to break standards in some way or another at some point.

    It almost seems like they're earnestly trying to earn the goodwill of web developers back, but after letting IE 6 coast its broken state for over five years and then issuing half-measures for the last three, I don't think they deserve any kudos or trust yet. If they ever will.

  21. Resources worth mentioning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.alistapart.com
    http://www.6revisions.com
    http://wwww.3schools.com
    http://www.456bereastreet.com/

    There are tons more, I just can't think of them at the moment.

  22. CSS insight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I actually got a pretty good insight of CSS with this book, I'm now designing websites and using useful tips from this book. Craig Miller Web Design

  23. Redmamba .INFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems a useful book. I had search for books not just for beginers to learn basic lessons but also with advanced tricks to provide developers to program almost any kind of web design. I never found a book like this.

    Redmamba .INFO
    Diseño web Granada

  24. how could we live before css by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CSS has made my life amazing. Craig Miller search engine optimization consultant