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First Look At Windows 7 On an Entry-Level Netbook

davidmwilliams sends in his IT Wire review of how Windows 7RC1 performs on an Acer Aspire One netbook. Summing up: it runs, it won't win any speed competitions, you won't want to play Crysis on it, and it's pretty OK for light-duty, everyday tasks. In related news, several readers have noted that Windows 7 RC1 is now available; one anonymous reader notes "This time, Microsoft was smart not to limit the time that it's available or the number of keys. It will be up for download until July, so there's lots of time to grab a copy."

79 of 435 comments (clear)

  1. Worth a try by cusco · · Score: 5, Funny

    Let's see how long until I can force it to crash, and then I can complain about it!

    --
    "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  2. At the risk of being redundant by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    as many others type this in at the same time - but it sounds like it pretty much runs like all other netbooks - regardless of the OS.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:At the risk of being redundant by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative

      as many others type this in at the same time - but it sounds like it pretty much runs like all other netbooks - regardless of the OS.

      I agree except for one quote:

      Once I had loaded Microsoft Office 2007 the 1GB of RAM became insufficient and the computer started page faulting.

      I don't know if 1GB of RAM should be too little for an OS and MS Word. I will say that my 5 year old laptop has no problem running Office 2000 on Windows XP ... with 512MB of very very slow ram. The same laptop has no problems running a simplified Linux with Open Office either. I say "simplified" because, yes, the default Ubuntu graphics shitfest causes it to be a bit unstable at times.

      I'm not sure which piece of the equation is making a glorified word processing program page fault on 1GB of RAM but I think that's a bit ridiculous.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:At the risk of being redundant by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure which piece of the equation is making a glorified word processing program page fault on 1GB of RAM but I think that's a bit ridiculous.

      Yeah? Try Office 2007. Well, my comment is probably redundant as well - What would you expect from MS?

    3. Re:At the risk of being redundant by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm not sure which piece of the equation is making a glorified word processing program page fault on 1GB of RAM but I think that's a bit ridiculous.

      I used to think the same about an anti-virus running on barebones windows, until I saw the Norton Suite running on Vista...

    4. Re:At the risk of being redundant by Quantumstate · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't have a netbook but I have a PC with less ram (768 mb) which is about 7.5 years old now so the processor isn't all that fast etc. Since in the article they mentioned that it seemed to be the rma which caused the problem with office anyway, I would not say that this is good performance at all. On my PC I regularly run openoffice, firefox, IM client, music player. This is on Ubuntu with fancy compiz effects enabled with my PC which has less ram than a netbook and I have no problems.

      Also I know somebody with a cheap netbook and I have seen them happily using a web browser and office suite on it without trouble, again using linux.

    5. Re:At the risk of being redundant by s31523 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree, that is, the RAM usage for basic apps has gotten out of control. 1GB is not enough? I mean come on Clippy, whats the deal? Why are programs getting so bloated that they need a super-computer to run them. I too run Office 2000. It installs in about 1 minute and runs fast on my older machines without needed 10GB of RAM.

    6. Re:At the risk of being redundant by MadKeithV · · Score: 2, Informative

      I run OOo3.0 on my Acer Aspire One, which handles Office 2007 formats well enough to not have to fiddle about with conversions at work.

    7. Re:At the risk of being redundant by samcan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Word might be to blame. Microsoft states that Word needs 256MB RAM minimum, and 1GB RAM for grammar and contextual spelling to be turned on.

    8. Re:At the risk of being redundant by sgtrock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, but a well designed OS doesn't page to disk when it's not necessary. If the entire OS and the app suite can be held in RAM, then it should be. If Win7 is generating page faults, then either the entire memory requirement is greater than the installed RAM or Win7 is swapping stuff out when it shouldn't. Either way, Win7 doesn't come out looking all that great as far as I'm concerned.

    9. Re:At the risk of being redundant by dmmiller2k · · Score: 5, Funny

      My vintage 2000 500MHz P-III, fully maxed out with 384MB of RAM ran Win98 for years, was later upgraded to Win98SE, then upgraded again to XP-Pro SP3, recently.

      (I know, I know, you should ALWAYS install new and NEVER upgrade, but I have licensed software on it for which I no longer have install media or keys, and heck, it worked.)

      Anyway it runs Firefox and Office 2003 just fine, if slowly.

      When my kids misbehave, they have to use it instead of the regular machine to do their homework for an appropriate period of time.

      When they REALLY misbehave, I disable MS Office (by changing the ACL on the install directory) and force them to run OpenOffice (with Java enabled) on it.

      Works great. They RARELY misbehave anymore.

      --

      "No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin

    10. Re:At the risk of being redundant by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are two schools of thought on this issue. There is yours, then there is what most experts believe.

      Most experts will tell you that there is no reason to keep 50+% of the app in memory when it's not being used. That memory can be put to better use by increasing the buffers and caches. It's silly to keep parts of an app in memory that aren't being used.

    11. Re:At the risk of being redundant by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree with you on almost all of your points, though I have to disagree on cmake. Compared to autotools it's wicked fast, it's far more platform independant, and it makes life much easier for the developer. Autotools was always a complete pain in the ass but with cmake I can spend my time actually coding instead of hacking together a build system.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    12. Re:At the risk of being redundant by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Informative

      At an earlier point in TFA, the author states (emphasis mine)

      Upon logging in, and without any other programs installed or running, 7.73GB of the hard drive was used already. On a roomy 160GB hard drive that's not a problem but if your netbook uses a solid state hard disk then space may be more of a premium.

      The task manager's performance tab showed 33 processes running and 465MB of RAM - or about 45% - in use while sitting idle. While nearly half the RAM being consumed without actually doing anything useful may be concerning it's not actually a big deal. Microsoft claim that Windows 7 (and Vista too, but its success is arguable) pre-loads parts of programs it expects you to use.

      So the 465MB of RAM actually seem to be the consumption of Windows 7, because there were no applications besides the OS installed that could be preloaded. The rest obviously is the fault of Office 2007. Which is also a lot more than I'd expect from an office application.

      For comparison:
      Right now, I'm running Windows XP SP3, have several SeaMonkey(Browser) windows open and I have started Open Office with a small text document. Memory usage according to Task Manager:
      - Total 365 MB
      - SeaMonkey about 120 MB
      - Open Office around 60 MB.
      - a few MB for AVG Antivirus, split into several processes.
      That leaves maybe 180 MB Windows XP is using for its own services.

      Other tests have claimed that Windows 7 with plenty of RAM is just as fast as XP, sometimes better. But the fact remains that it is still a memory hog.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    13. Re:At the risk of being redundant by silent_artichoke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, your wireless router is PWNED! You shouldn't have used the same password as me. Now I will cut off your access to the In

  3. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm pretty sure Dell Mini 9 + OSX = breaking the license. Or has apple suddenly made an about face in this regard?

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  4. entry level? by LingNoi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It has an Intel Atom N270 processor running at 1.6GHz, 1GB of RAM and a 160GB hard disk drive.

    Would you really call those specs "entry level", as in "the lowest specs available"?

    1. Re:entry level? by oogoliegoogolie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are netbooks anything other than "entry level".

    2. Re:entry level? by spyrochaete · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Are netbooks anything other than "entry level".

      My wife bought an Asus netbook a few weeks ago and opted to pay a couple hundred bucks more for a nicer model. There are some predictable upgrades you get for a few bucks more, but the most impressive is the expanded battery. While she was installing Office 2007 on her fully charged battery I asked her to hover the cursor over the power gauge, and lo and behold it reported 6.5 hours of battery remaining - and that was at nearly full load. She can take notes in school all day without being tethered to an electrical socket. That's quite a leap forward in mobile computing, though as TFA specifies, she won't be playing Crysis on the thing. Guild Wars, however...

    3. Re:entry level? by dpilot · · Score: 2, Informative

      640kb ought to be enought for anyone.

      My, oh my, how far we've come. 1000x isn't even minimal, any more.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  5. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by binarylarry · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The license agreement may not even be legal.

    --
    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  6. Re:Browser is the OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh, come on. It doesn't take two years to load a web site.

  7. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just breaking the license doesn't make it illegal. We've all seen unenforceable clauses in licenses and until Apple's license is tested in court, we won't know if the "Apple-branded" hardware bit is legitimate or not.

    Of course, if you pirate a copy, instead of buying one that is illegal.

    But if you buy a copy of OSX and install it on a non-Apple-branded computer, somehow I doubt that Apple will make too much of a fuss.

  8. Must be some sort of Windows Guru by bazorg · · Score: 4, Funny
    "Once I had loaded Microsoft Office 2007 the 1GB of RAM became insufficient and the computer started page faulting."

    hehehehehehe

    "However, at all times it was a stable experience, just increasingly slower as I attempted to do more simultaneously."

    1. Re:Must be some sort of Windows Guru by hey! · · Score: 4, Funny

      you don't know what a page fault is, do you?

      It's an electoral liability in the House of Representatives.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Must be some sort of Windows Guru by LordKronos · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wish I had mod points for you. You are right. This guy apparently doesn't know. From his post, it appears that he thinks a page fault is something like a blue screen error or GPF. The truth is, page fault is the technical term for what people commonly refer to as swapping. The program tried to access a page of memory that is no longer resident in physical memory and has been swapped out to the virtual memory swap file. It is treated much like any other invalid memory access, in that the program is suspended and the OS exception handler is invoked to decide how to respond, except that in the case of a page fault, the OS knows how to handle it. It determines what part of memory it should swap out, and swaps in the needed page.

  9. Re:Ok, but what about memory? by Jesterace · · Score: 2, Informative

    The RC is Ultimate so it does not have the 3 app limit. Although there's a hack that can be done to allow one to install the different Win7 versions. I'm still using XP on my netbook, I'm a little skeptical with running Win7 on it.

  10. Re:Browser is the OS by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

    a browser written in assembly and a SQLite database

    FAIL

    Let's see your browser written in Assembly with Java and Flash 10 support.

    What you want is called Damn Small Linux. With a little hacking and whacking you could do the sqlite thing but it just stuffs things into flat files IIRC. There are others as well but I've found it to have a good balance between size and functionality. It has a lot more than the browser, but once you have the kernel, X, the browser, and the JRE you might as well have some other stuff.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So its Shareware then. Nothing wrong with that and why shouldn't they get paid if you like it enough to keep using it?

  12. But what about the sidebar? by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The one thing I really like about Vista is the sidebar, I find it pretty useful having currency converter, calendar and such immediately to hand. In Windows 7 they seem to have done away with it and made the gadgets stand alone such that they either obscure windows if set to always on top, or they hide behind them otherwise making them either annoying or useless depending on which setting you have.

    As the performance tweaks in Windows 7 don't matter to me because my machine is powerful enough that I've not had performance issues in Vista nor noticed a difference with Windows 7 beta anyway and as I don't find the new taskbar worthwhile is there anything in Windows 7 that makes it worthwhile?

    I can see Windows 7 being good for those who held on to XP, but for those of us who did switch to Vista and have had no problems with it (so all 3 of us then :p), and particularly those of us who liked the sidebar it seems a step backwards. I can't see the gadgets being worthwhile to anyone in their current incarnation - has anyone found them useful when they're only ever out the way or in the way?

    1. Re:But what about the sidebar? by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How many times per hour do you need to convert currency, or check what today's date is? If that's your business, then you're using the wrong tool. If it's NOT your business, then the widgets are just masturbation.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    2. Re:But what about the sidebar? by IceCreamGuy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mouse to the bottom right-hand corner of the screen -> click once to show all gadgets/desktop, or hover to glass all windows and show gadgets/desktop. Or press WInkey+D. Or Alt-Tab to the desktop. I understand what you're saying, and I certainly have no way of know what your usage habits are, but for me having that sidebar up all the time seems like a huge waste of space when they could just as easily be placed on the desktop.

    3. Re:But what about the sidebar? by Xest · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's an oversimplified view of my usage patterns.

      I buy/sell stuff online from other countries a fair bit and like having an immediate way to do the currency conversion.

      Weather is handy to see, as I can keep an eye out for sudden major drops outdoors as I grow tropical plants in a cold climate so sometimes need to act if the temp drops too much but also because I do a 45 minute commute to/from work every day and so have the weather for home and work and depending on the weather at both locations I alter my route as the country roads are the quickest way unless it's raining, snowy or icy nearer work etc.

      Calendar isn't just about checking todays date, it's useful to see what day of the week a particular calendar date is and that sort of thing, I have a fairly busy schedule so it's handy for planning.

      Notes are of course useful to remind you about non-trivial things, or to scribble down a phone message and that sort of thing - certainly less clunky than using a notepad window and saving it to the desktop like I used to in XP.

      RSS on the sidebar is also simply useful to see the latest headlines for various sites also.

      You're right in that if you oversimplify it that the widgets are largely useless, but that's the problem with oversimplification, it never paints the full picture and between all the gadgets I get damn good use out of the sidebar. I'm not sure why you feel qualified to suggest what is and isn't the right tool for my usage patterns when you do not know what they are. Having used various tools through the years, the sidebar is absolutely one of the best tools for my usage that I've encountered so far, hence why I'm dismayed to see Microsoft appeared to have largely bastardised it in Windows 7.

  13. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by maxume · · Score: 4, Informative

    Limited support? Lack of drivers?

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  14. Re:troll?? Me thinks its a joke by s31523 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe it was, heaven forbid, some Windows fanboy defending the latest incarnation from MS.

  15. Whoa by ledow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hold on, WTH:

    - It takes 450-odd Mb of RAM to just sit at a clean, freshly installed desktop. I'm still running networks of machines that run on XP with 512Mb and suffer no appreciable performance loss (admittedly well-managed in terms of applications, but we run Office too).
    - When you install Office 2007, it swaps like mad with 1Gb of RAM.
    - It takes 7Gb of drive space to install.

    That is *not* a comfortable operating system for a netbook, it really isn't. My XP laptop is about as powerful as that netbook (although mine is dual-core and has a much nicer graphics card) and yet it'll take all of the above amounts of RAM, for a basic Office install - but I have a ton of other crap installed and running (my current Opera session is taking 70Mb of RAM, for instance). So what you have is *not* a netbook but a run-of-the-mill laptop. However, if I was to try to run this on, say, an Asus EEEPC it's likely to fall flat on its face before you even start (4Gb flash, oops, bang). Where XP would be quite happy, I'd like to add (or at worst, a nLite CD would work). And that's before you even START actually using the damn thing to get work done.

    Just off the top of my head, booting a Slackware CD, pressing "yes" to everything, etc. will get you into a full X-Windows environment with several window managers, thousands of apps, all in under 5Gb storage (most of that being silly stuff like gcc, KDE I18n, and TeX) and able to run in a few hundred Meg RAM. With OpenOffice, yeah you might get a bit of swapping went you first load but the point of netbooks etc. is the nice suspend options, and it sounds like it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

    I know this is all based on a "blog-o-expert", but hell... it's obviously not suited to the task. Just like XP isn't really suited to the task. But it sounds like it does an even worse job. Yeah, with some tweaking you can probably get rid of a lot of crap but you're never going to be able to pare it down as far as XP, or any version of Linux.

    So in the age of netbooks, where people are getting them thrown at them with their mobile phone contracts, MS's idea is to release (and thus force upon people) a new OS that doesn't really handle them at all unless you voluntarily soup them up and kill their performance/battery life. Good plan. I was seriously half expecting a special "7 mobile" edition at some point that would merge the CE and NT-based product lines for netbooks, seeing how that's the buzzword at the moment. In the absense of that, another growing OS is hardly a surprise. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that it wasn't a LOT worse than this. Vista upgrades were a really, really big deal and killed many an upgrade plan stone dead. This isn't in those realms, but it's hardly good news.

    1. Re:Whoa by edmac3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It takes 450-odd Mb of RAM to just sit at a clean, freshly installed desktop.

      FTFA:

      While nearly half the RAM being consumed without actually doing anything useful may be concerning it's not actually a big deal. Microsoft claim that Windows 7 (and Vista too, but its success is arguable) pre-loads parts of programs it expects you to use.

      Unused RAM is not doing anything for you.

    2. Re:Whoa by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh, you do know that RAM is cheap, right?

      Cheap in dollars or cheap in watts?

      who runs computers with 512 MB of RAM?

      People who use PCs with old chipsets that aren't compatible with larger RAM modules.

    3. Re:Whoa by roc97007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Uh, you do know that RAM is cheap, right?

      That's true. But, you know that (ostensibly to keep costs down, but probably also for marketing reasons) netbooks are often limited by the manufacturer as to how much ram they can hold, right?

      For example, the spec sheet for the Acer Aspire One, the netbook used in the article, has "1 Gb RAM max". So unless you're good with a soldering iron, that's all you're getting. And at $350 (street), the Aspire One is not even at the bottom end.

      I suspect that even with all the rumored optimization, it's still going to be a struggle to sell bottom-end netbooks with Windows 7. We may see XP hang around even longer than expected, or risk Linux owning the low end.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  16. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some of us don't care? :)

    Seriously, if I pay Apple for a copy of Leopard, I'll damn well use it wherever I please - with the full understanding that it is unsupported.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  17. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Really? Try running OS X on a non-intel or with something other than a broadcom wireless card. it will shit all over itself.

    To run os x on the aspire one, you have to swap the wireless card, the touchpad drivers are a pain and sleep doesn't always work.

  18. Re:troll?? Me thinks its a joke by ganjadude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    probably the only time we will ever see a crack at M$ modded troll (and now flamebait) Fan bois, your thread is here http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/04/2039219&art_pos=9

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  19. Windows 7 is for latte sippers. VISTA! by David+Gerard · · Score: 4, Funny

    Could everyone please sign up to the Save Vista campaign. Like Hummer like Chrysler, like Edsel, Vista shows the might of full-sized American industrial production. Itâ(TM)s a monument to everything that makes us great. We can't let it be trashed for misguided corporate attempts to suck up to latte sippers.

    Say No To Seven! VISTA VISTA VISTA! All the way!

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  20. Compare to Ubuntu by jonaskoelker · · Score: 4, Funny

    I don't know if 1GB of RAM should be too little for an OS and MS Word.

    I'm on ubuntu, using 871 MB of RAM atm, with firefox using a whopping 16% of my total 2 GB (= 327 MB).

    My systems runs ok, but I guess it'll get a lost faster if I kill fi

    1. Re:Compare to Ubuntu by Quantumstate · · Score: 3, Informative

      The reason that firefox eats memory is that it decides to cache a nice lot of stuff for you in the memory since from it's point of view you don't seem to be using it. Like the original parent who is using 871MB of 2GB so he has 1100MB free thus surely firefox using 327 is no problem. Just for reference In my house there is a machine which runs firefox perfectly which has 128mb of RAM. It is not quite as fast because it cannot cache so much stuff and I guess there tend to be fewer tabs open than with the version we have on our more powerful machine. Also chrome tends to use more memory in my experience and this is because of the overhead due to having more processes (Google did say this as well).

  21. Re:But by Vlado · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not a production software and it's not freeware.

    It's an unfinished piece of code that's released by MS to enthusiasts who want to try it out and participate in ironing out problems and bugs that remain in it. We all know that they won't completely succeed, but still...

    In any case MS is very upfront with how long the RC will function and what will happen when the TESTING period expires.

    People who have any other expectations from this code are probably not paying too much attention.

  22. I really want Windows to carry on being crap by joelholdsworth · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now that I've switched away from windows after getting stuck with Vista, it's so annoying that the next release by all accounts is actually going to be passably good (though is that astroturfing?).

    It's annoying because Windows is like a wife-beating husband. You live with it for years and years of pain, disappointment and broken promises, but just when you think you're ready to leave forever they turn around all smiles and sweetness.

    I'm tired of MS's patent crap. I'm tired of the DRM. I'm tired of the FUD. I'm tired of mediocre product after mediocre product. I'm tired of their high prices. I'm tired of them stacking the ISO. I'm tired of embrace extend extinguish. I'm tired of fixing other people's computers from malware. I'm tired of the overwhelming OS storage footprints, and everything else they do to ruin computing for everyone. I'm tired of the whole company and I wish everyone would dump them forever.

    But just as people begin to consider it, they give you a bouquet of flowers.

    Will this ever end?

    1. Re:I really want Windows to carry on being crap by David+Gerard · · Score: 2, Funny

      I despise Microsoft in most ways and think Windows 7 is quite usable. It's REALLY FAT and USES POWER RIDICULOUSLY, but the interface is responsive and OH SO PRETTY and not overly annoying. Yeah, it's nice and it's smooth. And REALLY FAT. Oh my God its arse is huge. But shapely. Yeah.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    2. Re:I really want Windows to carry on being crap by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's annoying because Windows is like a wife-beating husband. You live with it for years and years of pain, disappointment and broken promises, but just when you think you're ready to leave forever they turn around all smiles and sweetness.

      So it's like running Linux, except that at some point Windows does turn around to "smiles and sweetness." Linux just kept punching.

    3. Re:I really want Windows to carry on being crap by Jamie's+Nightmare · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm tired of MS's patent crap.

      It's not really your problem, unless you are working as a competitor, but I doubt you are.

      I'm tired of the DRM.

      Don't purchase DRM protected content. Two birds, one stone

      I'm tired of the FUD.

      Oh, you made a poor choice with Linux then. There's plenty of FUD to be had. Been to BoycotNovell lately? COLA? Read any Kdawson posts?

      I'm tired of mediocre product after mediocre product.

      Linux is a good choice for you then. It's not even a product. More of a garage band of programmers trying to find solutions without a problem.

      I'm tired of their high prices.

      Considering as important and widespread as Windows is, its price is pretty reasonable. You can even upgrade for a discount.

      I'm tired of them stacking the ISO.

      Yes, because God forbid Microsoft, who knows about creating software to handle documents, gets involved in creating a document standard nobody really gives a shit about in the first place.

      I'm tired of embrace extend extinguish.

      You got FOSS dude, why shed a tear for proprietary crapware?

      I'm tired of fixing other people's computers from malware.

      Fortunately for you, Linux will never be popular enough to be a prime target.

      I'm tired of the overwhelming OS storage footprints, and everything else they do to ruin computing for everyone.

      Correction: Ruined for you. Don't push your beliefs on everyone else. You are just one person, and a pretty grumpy one at that. If your budget for computer hardware is tight, then Linux is your obvious choice.

      I'm tired of the whole company and I wish everyone would dump them forever.

      Ha ha, dream on.

      --
      "When you see a unixer brainwashed beyond saving, kick him out of the door." - Xah Lee
  23. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by spyrochaete · · Score: 5, Informative

    I tried one of the win7 betas but gave up quickly because I could find no working network driver for my onboard NIC. I installed the new RC on Thursday and the OS is an absolute dream. It feels light years ahead of everything I've ever used, and the streamlined interface has forced me to re-evaluate my insistence on turning off new features to make it work more like win95. You should give it another shake - my compatibility issues have been very minimal.

    As for your comment about Linux replacing Windows when the application support is there, I think it's going to take more than that. Windows' sleek UI and excellent vendor driver support save the user time worth more than the entry price over its lifespan, plus Microsoft offers tech support for its products. With Linux it's inevitable that an end user will be forced to do something at the commandline, and realistically that's a huge time sink or maybe a deal breaker for the average user. This is just my opinion but Linux just feels like it is eternally playing catch-up, and by the time they're 60% of the way there Windows will have jumped forward to an entirely new era. Linux gets better every single month but it's never been on par in terms of the holistic computing experience - drivers, software, productivity, and even freeware are all in better shape on Windows, so that's why I've stuck with it despite trying many new Linux distros from time to time.

  24. Re:But by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it STILL expires after a certain date, forcing you to buy it

    Nonsense. Nothing can force you to buy it; you could always go back to your previous OS. This is like saying at the end of a test drive, you're "forced" to buy the car. Only if you want to keep using the new car!

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  25. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by MrHanky · · Score: 2, Informative

    OS X doesn't even support Apple's own floppy drives.

  26. Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    Dell won't sell me the Mini 9 without a Windows license

    In what country? In the United States, three out of four pictured Dell Inspiron Mini 9 configurations have a "Customize with Ubuntu" button.

  27. Re:Ok, but what about memory? by spyrochaete · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What are the minimum memory requirements, and how much of that will be eaten by the OS itself?

    Both Vista and 7 strive to consume as much memory as possible to precache commonly loaded executables. This cuts down on execution time and helps minimize disk access to a small extent. It's a smart use of resources, and it flushes RAM as required for games and such. Why buy RAM just to keep it unallocated, right?

  28. Excellent by hey! · · Score: 4, Funny

    Windows 7 assigned the Acer Aspire One a rating of 2.1 (out of 7.9, up from Vistaâ(TM)s limit of 5.9.)

    Excellent! The top speed of Windows 7 is 7.9 rather than 5.9. That a 34% increase.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  29. Re:Windows has ESP? by nmg196 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's a really bad example. With Windows Vista and Windows 7 I *DO* have my desktop in 15 seconds. I've never had that with any previous version of Windows. Much of the "pre-loading" is actually done post boot. MS have even moved many services that don't need to be ready straight away (eg Defender) to the new "Delayed Start" setting (see services.msc) so they load after your desktop is already ready.

    Vista and Windows 7 use a lot of RAM for caching so that your computer is faster. It's not using more RAM just to annoy you. After all, you PAID for that RAM, so why not actually use it to speed up your system? If an application needs lots of RAM and you're running short on physical RAM, it will free up that RAM and make it available for use by other applications automatically so you haven't lost anything.

    If you're that bothered - just stick with Windows 98 which doesn't do any of this stuff.

  30. This is how things compare to me... by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lets see...

    * Spend $50-60 on a 2 gig ram chip.
    * Spend $200+ on Windows 7 (Netbook Version)
    * Spend $40-60 on antivirus.
    * Spend $200 on Office
    * Limited to three applications.

    After buying a Netbook PC.

    OR

    * Spend $50-60 on a 2 gig ram chip.
    * Download and install Ubuntu Netbook Remix 9.04.
    * Stick with Open Office and still handle most Office documents.
    * Unlimited applications.

    After buying a Netbook PC.

    Hmmm... tough choice there.

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
    1. Re:This is how things compare to me... by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, for starters, 2 gig of ram costs about $35. Even less if you're buying in bulk like an OEM.

      Next, the starter edition (limited to 3 apps) is more like $10 than $200. Microsoft's idea is that those that need more will upgrade to a versin that doesn't have the limit.

      Next, Microsoft has recently said they will be providing Antivirus free sometime in the future, not sure when that will happen though. There are also half a dozen free anti-virus options like AVG and Avast.

      Then you can run OpenOffice or Symphony.

      So really, the only difference is the $10 cost of Windows starter (though limited to 3 apps), and even then there is a cost associate with Linux because vendors typically create their own distributions to go on their netbooks, so the end cost is probably about the same.

      If you want unlimited apps, then an upgrade to Home Premium is going to be about $50.

  31. Re:Browser is the OS by peragrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    take a look at the crunchpad. It hasn't been released yetbut it will be a tablet and a modified Linux that boots into a browser only. No shells just a browser.

    Personally I can't wait. No bqckground apps means decent betterylife.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  32. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by JAlexoi · · Score: 3, Informative
    Nice post. There are several out of context statements.

    save the user time worth more than the entry price over its lifespan

    I would not agree to that. Having been on Ubuntu as my primary desktop for 9 months now, I can say that there are no reasons for loosing any time. Maybe you should remove those critic's goggles and approach Linux with a more open mind. Because your commentary stinks of prejudice.
    The only item that keeps me coming back to windows are some of the applications.
    In any case most of things are done via the browser nowadays, so I don't really care about the OS much.
    As for drivers?I have 2 proprietary drivers on my laptop: nVidia and Broadcom. Both were installed like a charm via one click. I mean it takes longer on Windows to update those things.

    Linux it's inevitable that an end user will be forced to do something at the commandline

    That is absolutely not true. I use as much of command line now in Linux as I do on Windows. I have people using my computer that are as computer illiterate as they get.

    Microsoft offers tech support for its products

    Oh phulease... Most support is done via the OEM channels, MS's consumer support is basically crap.
    Now MSDN Premium was named Premium for a reason.

    I will give you other items such as:
    - broader support for drivers (more useful and useless options)
    - more software(freeware or otherwise)*
    - a more unified look and feel

    On a sidenote, if you like holistic experience you probably will LOVE Apple products. They don't get much holistic as Apple Mac's.

    * - though I have not had issues with not finding software that I or my, computer illiterate, family members needed.

  33. Re:Windows has ESP? by WankersRevenge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a couple of things ... first there is a perception issue at hand. I've only dabbled with Vista on my parents computer, so I'm not sure how it reports ram usage. I would hope that it reports cached program data as free memory and once you activate the cached program, that memory is then displayed as used. People freak out when they see their system resources maxed out. It means they need to shut down program x so they can run program y, otherwise the computer starts thrashing trying to keep up with the user and that is a terrible experience. I would think that most users would rather waste ram than go through that hell whereby everything becomes unresponsive. Pre-caching sounds like a great feature to utilize your system's resources and if it really drops the cached program data without any notice to the end user, then I'm all for it. The critical thing is that the user needs to be educated which it sounds like Microsoft failed to do.

    The other thing which would bother me is to see my hard drive cranking through bits when I haven't asked it to do anything. When I see that happening on my machine, I immediately open my activity monitor to check on all my processes. Again, this can be alleviated with user notifications and education, but it sounds like Microsoft failed to do that.

    I think the meat of the issue is that people want to be in control of their machines. Even at the expense of wasted resources. If Microsoft can educate as well as provide a great service, then there is no issue. Alas, it appears that they failed in that regard.

  34. Asus Eee and Ubuntu Netbook Remix FTW by Dunkirk · · Score: 2, Informative

    I tried one of the Windows betas, but I gave up because it was buggy. I installed the new Ubuntu RC, and it was an absolute dream. It felt light years ahead of any Windows I had ever used.

    As for your comment about Windows replacing Linux when the software support is there, I think it's going to take more than that. Ubuntu's slick UI and unparalleled driver support save the user time worth more than the entry price over it's lifespan. Oh wait. It's free. Double win.

    Want a terminal emulator (for programming routers)? Want an SSH client? Want a network sniffer? Want an http server? Smtp? Want any of 10,000 software packages? It's a couple clicks away with Synaptic. Don't tell me that Windows beats Linux for software installation. That's pathetically riduculous to anyone who's actually USED Linux for anything. Just because you can't get -- specifically -- Photoshop or Office or... well, that's pretty much it -- for Linux doesn't mean that software support isn't "there." There are plenty of applications to get the job done, do it the way YOU want to, and not the one single way that someone else supposes you should.

    Plus, you can get a lot more support for free because people can look inside the code, actually figure out what the heck is going on, and explain it. If that's not enough, I'm betting you can get support for Ubuntu from Canonical for less cost than you can get support for Windows from Microsoft. And better support. I've called Microsoft support. Three out of four times, their "advice" was "reinstall."

    Look. Enough. I'm tired of these old chestnuts from people who install Linux once or twice, can't figure out how to do anything, and then claim that Windows is the only credible OS on the market. Please. I don't have a problem with Microsoft fanboys. I have a problem with ANYONE who raves about ANYTHING without really knowing anything about the alternatives.

    (Disclaimer(s): I'm a Gentoo fanboy, but I have Ubuntu NBR on an Asus Eee. For some reason, Firefox is buggier than the Everglades in August, but otherwise, it's fantastic, and there are several other credible browsers available. Yes, I use Windows, but only on my main machine, and only for gaming.)

    --
    Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
  35. Stick with Windows 98? Tell me HOW! by bornagainpenguin · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you're that bothered - just stick with Windows 98 which doesn't do any of this stuff.

    Gladly! Now please explain to me where I can get drivers for my ASUS EeePC 901 that will drive the video card, sound card, webcam, ethernet, bluetooth, and wifi... I'm more than able to make Win9x my bitch and get it to sit up, roll over, play dead, and beg but without fully working drivers Win9x simply isn't an option any more.

    This is pretty sad too, because I've managed to run Win9x without the infamous bluescreens and other issues thanks to the patches and upgrades put out by the Win9x community at MSFN... Tihiy's shell upgrades and Xeno's kernel upgrades really make the platform look and behave much nicer than you'd believe! If you know anything at all about the history of the Win3x and Win9x systems and how they were constantly extended each time they were thought to have hit a brick wall you'd understand how tragic this really is.

    --bornagainpenguin

    --
    Have a Virgin Mobile USA smartphone? Give VMRoms.com a try!
  36. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by cptnapalm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The average user has so many problems on Windows that there are an entire industries dedicated to fixing their problems.

    The Windows UI is crap. The everything and the kitchen sink program listing is awful. Most of the admin utilities are hideous and about as unintuitive as they come.

    If Windows was even marginally as "easy to use" as is claimed, then my name would not be in the mental rolodex of everyone I know where I am listed under "can fix my computer".

  37. Re:hardware lock in like that is illegal in some a by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't understand why the word illegal keeps coming up. I didn't say it was illegal, I just wouldn't characterize as running software on unsupported hardware as "win".

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  38. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by D+Ninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So every company and organization copies from each other, it's not just linux doing it.

    You're absolutely right. But (and I could be wrong), I don't think that's what the GP was referring to. The reason I say this, is I feel the same way.

    I have tried a number of Linux distributions, and I have even really liked some of them (Gentoo was my favorite - used it for well over a year), but I always keep coming back to Windows. Why? I can't really describe it. I know Linux is powerful. I know Linux allows complete customization. And, the Linux community has been pretty awesome (again, Gentoo was the best IMO). But, Windows just "feels" better. It really feels like a seamless system. And, quite honestly, that's the best I can do to describe it. It's more of a feeling than anything.

    Either way, both systems have their place, and I'm glad there are both options, but Linux has to find that missing piece before it ever has a chance of making a solid dent in the desktop market.

  39. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by spyrochaete · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sorry but have you tried Windows 7 yet? There is much more going for it than translucency. The UI actually helps me do tasks more quickly. "Sleek" doesn't only refer to cosmetic aspects - it also describes the ease with which you can perform tasks by removing intermediate steps.

    When you copy files the taskbar thumbnail shows a progress bar. You can search from the Start button for any program, email, or document, and all without touching the mouse. When you're managing files you can drag 2 windows to either side of the screen to stack them horizontally, keeping each window fully in view, and when you're done you can move them away from the edge and they return to their previous size. You can pin document shortcuts to program icons so that you can right-click the program to directly jump to that document with that app, instead of having to open the app and browse to the desired document. You can repurpose the "shut down" button on the Start Menu to restart, hibernate, sleep, or whatever you want.

    I could go on and on (just ask me if you want more examples - I've been playing with the OS all weekend). I loved Vista but Win7 makes it feel like an old clunker. It's a very user task-minded UI design, and it doesn't take a Microsoft salesman to see this.

  40. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 3, Informative

    One of the major issues with the typical package manager is information overload. It's just way too much stuff, and there's no way for someone to easily compare two apps that do the same thing. No screenshots, no user reviews, nothing but a typically terse description of what the app is supposed to do (which may not even be what it really does).

    Unless you like installing apps and playing around with them, you're stuck going out to freshmeat or something similar to read more detailed descriptions of thigns, but then you're in the same boat as the typical windows users that goes to download.com or similar. In other words, the information overload combined with the lack of detailed information to make judgements with make the typical package manager very difficult to use for most people.

  41. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by AnalPerfume · · Score: 2, Informative

    You have a valid point there, it also does not help that packages which are simple lib files or dependencies for other applications are listed too. I have grown used to the applications I install on every system that I forget sometimes what it's like searching for something I've never heard of, let alone compare them. I do sometimes look in the information section for a site to visit, but you're right, even that involves opening a browser, copy & paste etc.

    Some package managers do have a star system which goes a little way towards addressing this but not all. Debian have started their screenshot program, but that's hosted on a site, not inside the package manager, and it is only screenshots. Package managers are most certainly the best option available but they do need refined still.

  42. Re:Ok, but what about memory? by vux984 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, but if caching stuff to RAM impedes running applications, it defeats the purpose it began with.

    It doesn't do that. It caches things when its idle, and it takes no time at all to flush pages of memory that don't need to be written to disk if something running needs the memory, so why bring it up?

    It does however show that its using a lot of RAM so twits looking at total ram allocated and then running around squawking about how high it is aren't contributing anything to the discussion.

  43. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is just my opinion but Linux just feels like it is eternally playing catch-up, and by the time they're 60% of the way there Windows will have jumped forward to an entirely new era. Linux gets better every single month but it's never been on par in terms of the holistic computing experience

    I don't think Linux distributions are a different era, they're a completely new paradigm and Linux is a different 'holistic computing experience' from Windows or Macintosh. I've used Linux at home for at least 10 years as my primary machine and while I use Windows at work I *insist* on a linux machine to ensure productivity.

    Workspaces for me are a killer application and I simply can't go back now and I feel lobotomised when I use windows. With windows, I never feel like I can extract all of the power of the machine to use on my application, primarily music production, for which Linux has allowed me to heavily customise for performance. Yes I tried it under windows and frankly with the money I saved on *not* buying the mac/protools combo I invested heavily in microphones. I want all the cpu time I paid for.

    So while my Fedora 10 install annoys me cause it can't play flash or wmv's it records 16 channels of hi resolution audio all day and mixes and masters music in a way that's simply not available on a Mac. When I want to play flash or wmv's I (dual) boot to Ubuntu where the eye candy is pleasing and, when I run wine, it happily runs my instance of ERwin and most of the games I'm interested in. If I need other software within a few clicks I've installed Eclipse (maybe not as friendly but seems much more powerful than VS), MySQL, Umbrello, OpenOffice and a bunch of other software without a single license key. Old hardware, media server, older hardware Asterisk box.

    Perhaps, one day, when propriety software vendors key on to how easy it is for a user to search for and install software for Linux they may offer a similar facility to licence and pay for their software to install under Linux distribution. Until then I'll just be satisfied with the limitations of the free software and donate some of the money I've saved to those projects so they can enhance it.

    If I want to upgrade an Ubuntu install? I Upgrade, restore users home directory, done. Environment maintained, missing a program? add/remove, done. With my new builds I offer users an Ubuntu install first and install their applications, so if they don't like it, then they can shell money out for windows. I think this time around there has been 2 or 3 releases of Fedora and Ubuntu since Vista was released so because fixes are soon and improvement is often, satisfaction remains. I don't understand how you can make the comparison if, as you say, 'you've stuck with windows'. Every time I've fixed a windows box is why *I've* stuck with Linux and none of my Ubuntu users have seen a command line, let alone used one.

    So, you're probably right, Windows probably is a familiar 'holistic' experience that comforts windows users, but I don't think it's a paradigm the average user enjoys any more, I don't. As the 'release soon, release often' matures Linux's 'holistic' experience it's paradigm get's better sooner and get's better often. Comparing Linux's 'holistic' experience with windows or mac is just not relevant anymore. I compare it's 'holistic experience' to that Linux distribution's last release. Freedom means more than 'freeware'

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  44. Re:Windows has ESP? by rantingkitten · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I *DO* have my desktop in 15 seconds. I've never had that with any previous version of Windows. Much of the "pre-loading" is actually done post boot.

    Right, which I find annoying. As soon as I have my desktop up I want to open my usual host of applications, and I'm stuck waiting forever for them because the system is thrashing about trying to load a bunch of other crap Windows thinks I might possibly want to load at some unspecified point in the future.

    Besides, I have no idea what criteria Windows uses to determine what my "likely" programs are, but if it's even remotely like the criteria it uses to display "Often Used" and "Rarely Used" in the Add/Remove Programs applet, I have zero faith in it whatsoever.

    I agree with the parent poster. Windows should focus on being stable, not trying to predict what I might want to do, because it's never been good at that and the performance benefits are dubious at best and counterproductive at worst.

    --
    mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
  45. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by goofballs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    i've only been using os x since 10.5 (on a santa rosa macbook), and had to get a new printer because it wouldn't reliably print to my canon i860 attached to a print server, even though it could see it, and the printer works with our xp and vista laptops. i replaced that printer with a hp l7580 aio- the printer works fine, but it pretty regulary can't scan.

  46. Re:Windows has ESP? by Shippy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Besides, I have no idea what criteria Windows uses to determine what my "likely" programs are, but if it's even remotely like the criteria it uses to display "Often Used" and "Rarely Used" in the Add/Remove Programs applet, I have zero faith in it whatsoever.

    Here's good evidence that you don't know you're talking about. Win7 (and even Vista for that matter) doesn't display any data about how often it thinks you use a program.

    Right, which I find annoying. As soon as I have my desktop up I want to open my usual host of applications, and I'm stuck waiting forever for them because the system is thrashing about trying to load a bunch of other crap Windows thinks I might possibly want to load at some unspecified point in the future.

    Perhaps you should try installing Win7 and seeing what happens before drawing your conclusions. Based on your previous comment, you haven't even tried.

    --
    -Shippy
  47. Re:Dell Mini 9 + OSX = win by Ant+P. · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seems to me that the best answer would be to lay out the package manager like Amazon's review pages, showing one of each of the top voted good/bad user reviews, a link to the package homepage and maybe a link to its screenshot page.

  48. Re:Ok, but what about memory? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 2, Informative

    I/O is precious. As a user of nLite, I've seen first-hand what disabling prefetching, auto-defrag, and thumbnails can do. Folders open quicker in explorer, games start faster, and Firefox does too.

    Why buy RAM and keep it unallocated?

    Because the Windows security model requires that memory pages be zero'd out before being used. I wonder how long it'd take to zero out 400MB and allocate it to other processes? 10ms? 20ms? 150ms?

    There is a delay. It's not as bad as java garbage collection, but it still has to be done!

    This prefetching stuff doesn't actually boost performance - it simply shifts where the load is to when the computer is idle, which is a lot of the time with an average user. If your computer is (almost) always busy, or you do I/O heavy tasks like video encoding, just disable it and performance will go up. But if you are an average user, don't disable it.

  49. My kingdom for an editor! by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the F'n summary: "This time, Microsoft was smart not to limit the time that it's available or the number of keys. It will be up for download until July."

    Funny, I never realized unlimited time ends in July. Why the hell is there an inane quote from an anonymous reader in the summary? Why not just say, "MS is making the beta available until July, much longer than earlier releases." I realize this is /., but sheesh!

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  50. Crysis? by ozbird · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Summing up: it runs, it won't win any speed competitions, you won't want to play Crysis on it, and it's pretty OK for light-duty, everyday tasks.

    Well duh - the same thing can be said about the same netbook running XP or Linux. Where's the Windows 7 RC1 review?