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Your Commuting Costs By Car Vs. Train?

grepdisc writes "Newspapers in Boston are fawning over a report by the American Public Transportation Association that taking public transportation saves money over driving. How can one possibly save $12,600 per year, when the inflated estimates of 15,000 miles per year at only 23.4 miles and $2.039 per gallon costs only $1,310, and a high parking rate of $460 per month results in under $5600. Is the discrepancy made up of tolls, repairs, the cost of buying a car and ignoring train station parking fees?" Everyone's situation is different — and it's easy to have a chip on one's shoulder while estimating prices. But for those of you with the option, what kind of savings do you find (or would you expect) from taking one form of transport to work over another?

148 of 1,137 comments (clear)

  1. depends by tsalmark · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If I continue to own my car then it costs more to take public transit, but not by much. If I sell my car and take public transit I save a few grand a year, assuming I rent a car one weekend a month.

    1. Re:depends by Chabo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My car's old enough that I wouldn't get enough for it to cover public transit costs.

      Plus I live near Sacramento, which has the useless Light Rail system. The stops are nowhere near where they need to be to be useful, unless you work right downtown.

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    2. Re:depends by Zondar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is the problem with rail in most places. Most urban/suburban areas are so poorly laid out that rail is only able to service a very few number of people from "near door" to "near work". This is made several times worse if they are only able to put the rail 'where people will let them', which usually means the rail doesn't service many people along the route - because it's in the boonies.

    3. Re:depends by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've gone car free in the last year or so, and it's saved me a pile of money. Around $7k/year for fuel, plus insurance and car payments add up to more than $20k/year. I use my bicycle most of the time, but when I need to go longer distances I can combine biking and public transit (though I almost never actually do this). I love the freedom of being on a bicycle, as you have all the rights and privileges of both motorists and pedestrians. Travelling through heavy traffic is much faster by bicycle. And then there are the positive health effects.

    4. Re:depends by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can't image how that $20k figure is anywhere close to normal

      Perhaps not normal, but here's the math:

      • At around $100/tank of fuel, and a little less than 1 tank of fuel per week it comes to around $7k/year
      • My loan payments were $650/month
      • Insurance payments were another $450/month

      Add everything up, and it comes to $20200/year.

      Perhaps most people just don't realize how much they're wasting on automobiles?

      PS: A transit pass (where I live) is $84/month, costing about $1008/year.

    5. Re:depends by Moryath · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No shit.

      I could "use public transportation." I'd still drive 5 miles roundtrip to the station every day. And of course, the station is only available 6:30am-8am and return trip 4pm-7pm. So if I need to stay late at work I need my car. If I need to go help a friend after work, or pick up kids, I need my car. If I want to go somewhere after work, or during lunch hour, I need my car.

      In other words, if all I did was ever go to work exactly on time, and come back to home exactly on time, I could do it. But my life isn't predictable like that. Imagine you're a normal family now, mom, dad, 2.5 kids, possibly older parents to take care of. On any given day something could happen and you need a car to go help someone out.

      If public transportation were ubiquitous, hey, no problem. But it's not. Municipalities run it "as a business" rather than admitting it's a service, a public utility, and admitting that hey, we need to put in enough tax money to make it cover enough areas. It may mean some nights, an empty bus is going up and down the street, but the alternative is people NOT riding in the morning because they're afraid of not being able to get a bus in the evening.

    6. Re:depends by Moryath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Almost forgot to add:

      - it takes me 25 minutes to reach work in the car.
      - it would take 1:30 to get there via public transportation.

    7. Re:depends by liquidsunshine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most people who travel by car spend about a third of their income on transportation. If you drive an expensive, fast car, I can see how you could end up spending half of it.

    8. Re:depends by Bandman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real problem is population density.

      Places (NYC is the poster child) that have a high population density get effective mass transit, meaning subways or good light rail service. Other places get ineffective light rail and/or buses.

      In a highly populated area, a single stop can serve thousands of people, where as most places in America measure thousands of people per square mile. It just doesn't work out for mass transit in places like that. What service is available is universally slow and underfunded, usually with heavy subsidization by the local government.

      You can thank the suburbs and the 1940/50s dream of everyone owning their own home. The "American Dream", a 60 year old invention that caused the massive economic build up of Detroit and the eventual collapse. It also helped out the environment a lot. Nevermind, I'm digressing.

      It's the population density.

    9. Re:depends by dalhamir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plus I live near Sacramento, which has the useless Light Rail system. The stops are nowhere near where they need to be to be useful, unless you work right downtown.

      True Dat! Even worse if you want to get into the bay area, or god forbid get down to southern california. Only amtrak would make you get on a bus, then a train, and then a buss to get from sac to san deigo

    10. Re:depends by Thornburg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps not normal, but here's the math:

      • At around $100/tank of fuel, and a little less than 1 tank of fuel per week it comes to around $7k/year
      • My loan payments were $650/month
      • Insurance payments were another $450/month

      Add everything up, and it comes to $20200/year.

      Bloody hell, where do you live that insurance is $450 per MONTH?
        Or perhaps you owned some crazy car, considering $650/mo payments...

      I used to pay about $100/mo for two cars...

    11. Re:depends by Bandman · · Score: 2, Funny

      I believe it. My coworkers in NYC don't own cars, because monthly parking and insurance is equal to the cost of the payment. They all rent cars if they have to go somewhere.

      I actually have coworkers who still have valid licenses but haven't actually driven a car for 10 years. It's a load of fun when they come to our NJ office ;-)

    12. Re:depends by MyDixieWrecked · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When I first moved to NYC from New Jersey about 5 years ago, my friends were freaking out about the fact that I was paying about 20% more in rent. Once I did the math, I was able to show that I was saving significantly more money by not having a car between gas, maintenance, tolls, parking, insurance, etc. I get an unlimited metrocard for the same cost that I was spending on gas every month (this is in 2004, so I was spending about $60-70/month).

      When I moved back to jerz, I opted to not get a car. I still worked in the city and would walk about a mile to the train station every day and take the train in... the monthly train pass was around $250, and I could avoid getting a metrocard since I could walk to work from the train station. Although the monthly cost of a car would probably be under $250, the up-front cost of the car just didn't make me want to get one.

      Now that I'm living in NY again, I just take the subway everywhere. I really wish there was better public transportation outside of major metropolitan areas.

      --



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    13. Re:depends by hellwig · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I could buy a new car for what you pay in a year. Jesus christ man.

      --
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    14. Re:depends by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · · Score: 4, Insightful

      2) In the US, if you are on a bike, you do not have the rights of a pedestrian. You are bound by motor vehicle laws.

      It takes approx. 2 seconds to go from being a cyclist to a pedestrian. It's really easy, I swear.

    15. Re:depends by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's all assuming you don't need a car to get to the train station in the first place. Then you have the cost of taxis to get to anywhere that isn't in your local public transport network.

    16. Re:depends by mrbene · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Location, location, location.

      I've not owned a commuter car for the last 10 years. In that time I've biked, walked, and taken public transit to work, depending on the city, job, and distance. Currently, my commute is by bus, which runs at 15 minute intervals at peak and at 30 minute intervals off peak.

      Throughout this time I've selected my residence based on public transit and other service availability. It just becomes another attribute to house/apartment selection. "Must have garage" becomes "Must have grocery store within 5 blocks".

      Yes, if you choose to live away from public transit, there'll still be a cost of car ownership to get to the station. But if you choose to live close to the transit (just like a car owner generally chooses to live near roads), this is not so much an issue.

      I think that the mindset of "transportation services must come to me" needs to be updated on a societal level. However, until the rest of you catch up, I'll be taking advantage of my lower monetary cost, lower stress lifestyle.

    17. Re:depends by characterZer0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I was an overweight wimpy nerd. 10 months ago I started taking the bus to work and biking the 9 miles home. I could hardly walk up the stairs by the time I got home. After a few months I could run up the stairs. One day I missed the bus and biked to work, and have been biking both ways since.

      I lost a lot of weight, my blood pressure and heart rate are better, and I can bike 10 miles in under half an hour.

      I enjoy my commute now more than I ever did driving.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    18. Re:depends by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Municipalities run it "as a business" rather than admitting it's a service, a public utility, and admitting that hey, we need to put in enough tax money to make it cover enough areas.

      Of course, the problem there is that there's a horrible political stigma attached to public transportation. Anything "public" has for decades been considered "communist" and therefore "evil". We can't, as a people, pool our resources or share anything because "sharing" is for hippies. However, once you say, "we're pooling our resources in order to run a cut-throat business that will profit through amoral methods," well... that's ok then. Just make sure no morals creep in there.

      I mean, I hate commies and hippies as much as the next guy, but can't we try to come up with efficient solutions for our society without getting too caught up in an ideology? Can we consider that people of a community pooling their money and talent for the common good might occasionally be worthwhile?

    19. Re:depends by LaskoVortex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I could "use public transportation." I'd still drive 5 miles roundtrip to the station every day.

      The idea is that you investigate where you live before you move there and then make sure your living situation is public transportation friendly. In LA, it saves me a truckload of money, mostly on parking.

      Most people dont' think like this. That's why you get traffic *both ways* during rush hour. The poor bastards ought to swap houses.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    20. Re:depends by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just because public transit takes longer doesn't mean it's automatically a waste of time. I used to work a job where my choice was a 40 minute drive (in bad traffic, it could double, but that was fairly uncommon) or a 120 minute bus/subway commute (never varied by more than 10 minutes). While public transit took longer, I never considered those 120 minutes to be wasted. I read a novel a day for months.

      I view it as wasting 80 minutes a day doing nothing but driving, vs. using every second "productively".

      --
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    21. Re:depends by lymond01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      New York is tiny. I drive two miles to get groceries in my little piece of suburbia. That's like going from Union Square to Central Park in New York...which is the cosmic equivalent of Earth to Mars. On my two mile drive, if I cut through all the little side streets, I'll probably pass 1000 people. Between Union Square and Central park in a straight shot up 5th avenue...more like 200,000 people.

      The car gave us freedom. If you want efficiency move to the city.

    22. Re:depends by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Similar situation here. A morning (bus) ride and the occasional afternoon ride is 45 minutes. A normal afternoon ride is 90 minutes (necessary transfer leaves station 5-10 minutes before I get there, so I have to wait for it to come back.).

      Biking is 30-45 minutes and not bound to a schedule.

    23. Re:depends by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with that idea is that people change jobs. What was once a short commute suddenly isn't a short commute anymore. Do you A. sell your house at a huge loss, or B. take it on the chin and commute? Most reasonable people would not pick A. And even with lots of public transit, if you travel very far at all, the best public transit in the world doesn't do much good.

      Public transit makes sense in these situations:

      • Where you can take a single bus or train for less than 15 minutes. Much more than that, and the time penalty for taking public transit starts to become excessive. Most people would choose a ten minute car trip over a 30 minute public transit ride in an instant.
      • Where traffic is so heavy that driving is impractical (e.g. Manhattan certain times of day).
      • Where parking is difficult to find near one or both endpoints (again, Manhattan comes to mind).
      • Where you can take a single long haul express ride for an hour or more and arrive within walking distance of your destination (and even this one is dubious).

      In anything approaching normal urban density (NOT Manhattan), as soon as you have to do two transfers, ride a non-express train/bus more than 20 minutes, etc., public transit starts to break down pretty badly in efficiency. A couple of extra hours per day adds up to huge numbers of wasted days over the course of a year.

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    24. Re:depends by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When you can keep up with the speed limit, you can have the rights of drivers. When you ride on the sidewalk, you can have the rights of pedestrians. To me, you are a slow, unpredictable nuisance- especially on two-lane roads where I can't swerve to avoid you because there is oncoming traffic. Passing motorists might be mad... But you should see the ones stacked up behind you waiting to pass.

      No offense, it's just that when I see a bicycle up ahead I know I can look forward to driving 25 mph max until he or she decides to turn off; that, or I have to swerve into the other lane which at 5 in the afternoon is just not going to happen.

      -b

      --
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    25. Re:depends by ian+mills · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While population density is a problem, it is the result of effective mass transit, not the cause. How can you have density with giant parking lots everywhere?

    26. Re:depends by phantomcircuit · · Score: 5, Informative

      Are you serious?

      Population density

      • Paris - 24,948 /km^2
      • Sacramento - 1,818/km^2

      Gee I wonder why paris has public transportation and Sacramento doesnt?

    27. Re:depends by DinDaddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since those extra minutes would come out of the time I spend with my family, I would consider them stolen, not wasted. My job does enough of that.

    28. Re:depends by nutrock69 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It all depends on where you are and what your commute is like.

      I live near Philadelphia - near being described as "between Philly and Lancaster/Harrisburg". Went job hunting this winter (not by choice) and landed a good job in downtown Philly. I drove to work my first three days. I've taken the train ever since.

      Why? Because I did my math. 50-some miles each way is a typical "local" commute for people in my area. Nobody thinks twice about it. 100+ miles a day, plus traffic, had me filling my tank after 2.5 days, or twice a week, to the tune of about $50/week - or $10/day - just for the gas. 21.5 working days average a month makes the gas to $215/month. Best price I could find for reliable parking is also $10/day, so my total per month given that my car is paid for is roughly $430/month.

      That doesn't count wear and tear on my car, wear and tear on my sanity or blood pressure. Nor does it count the fact that the average drive time was 2 hours each way, and (as someone else also mentioned) those 2 hours were spent doing nothing BUT driving and screaming obscenities at the other cars.

      SEPTA's costs? $181 for the monthly anytime pass, a buck a day to park, and a single tank of gas = ~$227.50/month. The trip is less than an hour each way, and I've been catching up on old tv shows, reading books, and playing games on an ipod. Certainly less wasted than driving, and my sanity has never been better - if it could've been called that in the first place, that is... :)

      Other people might not be so clear cut, so maybe it's not for them, but for me this was a no-brainer. Aside from the occasional delay once in a while, there's no reason for me to think otherwise.

    29. Re:depends by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Possibly dumb question, but... how did you bike only one way? Where do you get the bike, if you didn't leave the house with it?

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    30. Re:depends by steve.howard · · Score: 2, Informative

      Put the bike on the bus. Many have something on the front you can attach it to. Not that I think that isn't stupid (why take the bus when you have a perfectly good bike with you?).

    31. Re:depends by electrons_are_brave · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Meh. In Australia, well-off people own cars AND live in the areas which have good, efficient public transport. Poor people live in the back of nowhere miles from that single bus stop where a bus has never been seen. There's a good paper on "Car ownership and Social Exclusion in Australia". http://civil.eng.monash.edu.au/its/caitrhome/prevcaitrproceedings/caitr2007/johnson_caitr2007.pdf As you'd expect, those who can afford cars mostly buy them. Poor people can't afford, but are often forced buy, cars or they can't get to work. "In Australia, lack of access to private or public transport was found (following having a criminal record) to be the second highest barrier to social and economic participation in a study of job seekers facing multiple barriers to employment". I noticed in the report that it might be different in the US because in Australia the richer you are the nearer you tend to live to the the centre of the city, which is also where the lush jobs and the good public transport are. Poverty, bad jobs and bad public transport go with outlying suburbs. I get the picture in the US that the well-off prefer to live in the suburbs and that good jobs are more decentralised? Speaking in broad generalisations of course.

    32. Re:depends by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, since everyone here thinks I'm full of crap, I decided to take a picture of my old insurance policy. Here's the first, and second picture. Note that the highlighted value is the annual cost (so the monthly payment was $489.67).

      And for the record, I have a nearly perfect driving record (other than a couple speeding tickets when I was 16).

    33. Re:depends by schmiddy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      why take the bus when you have a perfectly good bike with you?

      Perhaps because the GP didn't want to show up to work in the morning drenched with sweat and exhausted?

      --
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    34. Re:depends by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your stats could be misleading, as density is not uniform. I live in a city with a much lower population density than either of those places, yet we have commuter trains and buses.

    35. Re:depends by Temposs · · Score: 2, Informative

      To answer for the GP, modern bus systems have bike racks on the front bumper that people can load and unload their bikes onto quickly.

      Presumably, the GP didn't feel like biking both ways initially, so took his bike to the bus stop and loaded it on the bus and took it to work, so he could ride it home.

      --
      Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Orson Scott Card
    36. Re:depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      He worked at a bicycle factory.

    37. Re:depends by adolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Aw, hell. This is 2009. You can use the extra time on a train for a lot of things, including Slashdot, and thus have even more free time for your family.

      How much of your attention is with your family right now as you read this at home?

    38. Re:depends by amiga3D · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most Urban areas in the US are cesspools of crime and poverty. The only areas downtown that are nice are "very" expensive. The suburbs tend to be good and not so expensive. Golf course communities are popular too. Rural tends to be poorer than the suburbs but not as bad as city ghettos. Of course there are exceptions to all of this. It's kind of crazy. I've seen a million dollar house with 40 acres and a lake and then there are some double-wides just down the street. Mostly everyone has a car. I can't even imagine life without one. I lived in Germany for 3 years when I was in the Air Force and the bus and rail systems were wonderful. But thats what? 85 million people in a country not much bigger than Oregon? Here we've got people scattered all over creation. I remember riding across route 50 in Germany going from Wiesbaden to Hahn Air Force Base. It was bizarre not seeing a house for miles. Farm land all around...no farm houses. No rural communities really. Small towns, small cities and then big cities. People seemed to come in clumps making public transportation easier. Then there is the crime. I never, ever, felt unsafe on a bus or train in Germany. Here I pack heat every time I go to Atlanta. And that's in my car!

    39. Re:depends by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I probably spend... ~$5.5k a year on my car. (Car payments, Gas and Insurance).

      My daily drive is about 30 minutes.
      My daily bike ride is about 45 minutes.
      My daily bus trip is about 1.5 hours.

      The downside to my bike is there is no shower at work. So I can't ride any day that clients are coming and I need to look all presentable (stupid helmet). Also rain kind of dampens my enthusiasm to show up to work sopping wet and not be able to take a nice warm shower and dry pair of shoes. I also can't ride during the winter because I don't want to ride in traffic after dark.

      Now. Here is what would be great: covered bike paths. I can't imagine that a basic bike path covered option would be more expensive than a road. Certainly cheaper than a bridge. Add lights and the freedom from cars and you've covered everything except for hat hair. That could be solved with a change in culture where every office has a shower.

    40. Re:depends by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 2

      The US is roughly the size of Australia, so as you can imagine, you can't really generalize about where the good jobs are, or where people live, etc. It really depends on the locality.

      Most high-paying jobs tend to be in the city proper in any given metro area, but that is not necessarily always true. Take New York, for example. There are a ton of good jobs in the city, but you can find good jobs in the commuter suburbs, too (e.g. Stamford, CT has a lot of financial firms (UBS, Swiss Re, etc.)).

      Or take Washington DC, for example. Lots of great jobs in DC, but you have Amazon.com, AOL, and a few huge NOCs in Dulles, Virginia (where?).

      So I don't think you can really generalize about how it is here. There are definitely rich people in the city centers (who can afford to send their kids to private schools). There are rich people in the suburbs, too. And there are poor people in both places.

      Out in the middle of nowhere, however, you'll mostly find poor people.

      --
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    41. Re:depends by Sephollyon · · Score: 2, Informative

      The situation here in Denver, Colorado is similar. The light rail system we've just recently put into place passes mostly affluent communities and downtown. Communities that were mostly middle class are now becoming upper middle and upper class communities as properties rise in value relative to surrounding areas. Proximity to a light rail station can raise your rent a couple hundred dollars.

      Denver has undergone massive amounts of gentrification over the last few years so the inner city transportation systems are all benefiting those who don't really need it, namely well off families with multiple cars.

      However, there is a silver lining I believe. After the first light rail line was built it didn't take long for it to be extended and other rail lines planned. As the more affluent citizens become accustomed to riding the train I believe that future ballot initiatives trying to get things like the I-70 rail system(proposed system going from Denver International Airport to most of our popular ski resorts, passing through Denver along the way) working will be easier to pass.

      I do not get rail service from where I work and live to my university, so I ride the bus as much as possible. I get a public transportation pass with my campus fees so I try and use that rather than paying around $5 for parking on campus. The crappy thing is that my regular bus runs through el barrio(mexican ghetto) and there's quite the cast of characters, so I try and catch the express bus from a park and ride. The express is very limited on time however, so if I plan to stay late I drive.

    42. Re:depends by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm going to admit that my experience with public transport is limited to a few specific occasions where I was away on a business trip, but I want to second your notion.

      In my experiences, I take a flights to another city, stay at a hotel and took public transit to where I needed to go (well, used to, I don't anymore). It generally took roughly an hour to an hour and a half longer to get to each destination I needed to go to and I had the itinerary and routing worked out in advance by the secretary at the places I was visiting. One trip, I had to take a $15 or $20 cab ride to the lite rail station and wait 20 minutes for the train. Then after a 35-40 minute ride, I had to hop a bus with two transfers so that meant not only waiting the extra time while each bus hits the other stops on the line, I had to get off twice, walk two blocks away, and wait 15 to 20 minutes for the connector to come by. Then I still walked roughly 3 city blocks to get where I needed to be. My meetings took roughly an hour longer then planned so I took a taxi all the way back to the hotel for $80. I spent roughly $25-$30 on the public transportation and it took a total of four and a half hours or so one way. On the way back I decided to just take a cab, it took me one and a half hours, cost $80 for the cab, and I was still able to hit a show that night. The next trip, I rented a car for $50 a day, squeezed in two extra meetings (over two days), and saved not only time but money as well. I also was able to park in the lots of the places I visited so walking which isn't an issue outside of time involved (moving at 3mph verses 20-30mph or faster) was rather limited to the back edge of large parking lots.

      While public transportation works for some, it isn't a magic bullet for anything. Well, at least not like the story is attempting to claim. Also, if you take the parking away from the study, it loses most of it's bite. This is especially true if you look at all the driving you have to do in a normal day. We seem to be focusing on the one task of going to work but if you get rid of your car, you will need to go to the market more often because you can only carry a few bags of groceries at a time, you will lose the hour there, lose an hour when going to the doctors, the movies, the jazz festival downtown or county fair or whatever else it is that normal people do with their spare time. It's just not worth it.

      I have rarely went to some place where my parking wasn't validated by one of the places I visited or the place had it's own parking lot and the parking was free. Even my attorneys office in downtown Columbus Ohio will pick up the parking tab by issuing you a promissory voucher that you present to the parking attendant when leaving. And we know how greedy those sharks can be. I have never had to pay to park on the street in front of my friend's houses, a relative's house, the grocery store, or the local pub/bar. They put too much stock into the paying to park thing to be grounded in reality for most people. And that's not even considering the extra time that can be used more productively doing something else that is important to you.

    43. Re:depends by Ash+Vince · · Score: 3, Informative

      Since those extra minutes would come out of the time I spend with my family, I would consider them stolen, not wasted.

      Wait until your kids get a bit older, then you will consider that hour long commute to be welcome peace and quiet :)

      --
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    44. Re:depends by he-sk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You only have to bike a 25 minutes walk and you complain? Are there no back roads where you live? Hell, I'd take a mountain bike and go cross country and would still make it in no time.

      --
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    45. Re:depends by xaxa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Smug all you want, but the rest of us live in the real world.

      Sorry, that's not the real world, that's America :-)

    46. Re:depends by YttriumOxide · · Score: 4, Informative

      I lived in Germany for 3 years when I was in the Air Force and the bus and rail systems were wonderful. But thats what? 85 million people in a country not much bigger than Oregon?

      That's not really looking at the big picture though... Public Transportation over most of Europe is equally as excellent as here in Germany (not QUITE in some places, but still far better than other parts of the world I've lived in). Taking in Europe as a whole, the size of the place isn't nearly as much of an argument anymore - if the US states ran public transportation like European countries do, it'd work much better.

      People seemed to come in clumps making public transportation easier.

      I'll definitely grant you that. Something I can never quite fathom when I visit the US is how hard it is to really be "in the middle of nowhere" (which, by my definition, means no people around). Here in Germany, there's people pretty much everywhere, but if you do go somewhere where there isn't anyone, you really are alone. In the US, it always sort of felt like there might be a house somewhere if you just walk over a hill or two. I've also lived in Australia, which has the mind boggling expanses of absolute nothing and some pretty serious "clumping" going on around the coasts.

      Then there is the crime. I never, ever, felt unsafe on a bus or train in Germany.

      Yep - that's something I definitely love here. "Random" violent crime is very low (muggings, street violence, etc - domestic violence is similar to other parts of the world though, so that's nothing special unfortunately).

      On the actual topic though, even here in Germany, I'd pay more to take public transport to work than drive. Only because of my exact circumstances though - for most people it'd be the other way around. I live in the middle of a city, with an U-Bahn stop pretty much right outside my door, but to get to work I can either drive 8km, or take the U-Bahn, followed a bus. U-Bahn alone would be cheap, bus alone would be cheap, but U-Bahn plus bus would be slightly more than I pay for keeping my car running (especially since it's such a short drive). I do make heavy use of the U-Bahn for other journeys though like heading to friend's houses, coming home drunk late at night when I can't be bothered walking home, etc. For mid-distance journeys (within Germany) I generally take the train, and for long distance, I mostly fly, so other than the 8km trip between home and work, I don't use my car much at all in normal day-to-day life (I do like doing "road trips" though, so maybe a couple of times a year, I might do a several thousand km drive somewhere, so I definitely wouldn't give up the car even if my work circumstances were different... that's a matter of doing something I enjoy though, not convenience or cost (it'd be easier and cheaper to fly to most of the places that I go on these sorts of road trips))

      --
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    47. Re:depends by smallfries · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm reading it at work. People actually read slashdot at home, on their time? For the love of god...

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    48. Re:depends by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >>>While public transit took longer, I never considered those 120 minutes to be wasted. I read a novel a day for months.

      You can "read" novels while driving too, or college lectures, or just the radio. I've done this for years, first on cassette and now on my cheap MP3 player, and therefore the 40 minute car drive is still the better choice (IMHO) than the 2 hour metro.

      ALSO:

      If I got rid of my gas-guzzling car, and traded it in for a 70mpg Honda Insight, or the new 240mpg 2-seater from Volkswagen, those options would be a lot cheaper than public transport. And more flexible (leave home when you want; come home when you want; do errands on the side like grocery shopping).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    49. Re:depends by JAlexoi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you have a job where you bring value by knowledge and thinking, you are better off in public transport. Because a well run public transport can be a place where you can actually start working and planning your work before getting to work. As a driver, driving itself takes too much of your concentration of making the time spent in the car productive. It takes me 30-35 minutes to get to work, but I get to work 1 hour later then everyone else, and leave 1 earlier. Because I "work" in the public transport: I plan my day in the morning, think of the decisions I have to make, making certain decisions, I sum up my day in the evening and plan my next steppes. I know that if I were driving, I would either crash thinking as much as I do on public transport or I would not think of my work. In any case, driving in bad driving conditions is just a waste of time and nerves. And no way would I consider it good returning to my family all cranky after even 30 minutes in a traffic jam.

    50. Re:depends by Sandbags · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought exactly the same thing, until i started commuting by train....

      My drive used to vary between 50 and 80 minutes depending on traffic, one way. The train commute (including 6 minutes to drive to the train) was 90 minutes consistantly. One could easily argue i was loosing between 20 and 80 minutes a day with my family.

      However, it occurred to me after I started commuting several things:
      1) the time in the morning didn't count. I actually had MORE time with my family in the mornings. How? well, I basically had to leave at the same time each morning one way or the other, since traffic could easily put me being late. This meant more often than not I got to work 20-30 minutes early. Also, since I could quite easily (and comfortably) eat breakfast on the train, I was no longer in a mad rush to get my shit together in the morning, and could spend the tome actually talking to my kids instead of barking orders and running from room to room, and cursing when i burned breakfast trying to do too much in too short a time. My whole morning was calmer and more controlled, and I not only had that time with the family, but I ENJOYED that time for once.

      2) The end of the day. This was easier in many ways. First, i knew I allways had about 40 minutes on the train doing a whole lot of nothing after breakfast. Most mornings I simply read news, a book, watched a podcast, something like that. Other mornings I was actually working, preparing for my day, prepping for a meeting with a client, reading a tech manual on a new software package, something productive. This extra time meant I was also more focused at the office, and got my shit done. I found I rarely ever worked overtime anymore, and if I had some unfinished work, I did it on the train on the way home.

      3) The worst part of the commute was ALLWAYS coming home, not going to work in the morning. As anyone who commutes often knows, people vary on when they go in to the office, from 7ish to closer to 9AM, but nearly every fucking one of them are on the roads at 5:15PM... and on a mission. 50-60 minutes in the morning was the norm, with the occasional bad commute. Coming home was ALLWAYS on the 80 minutes side. So I really only lost about 10 minutes on average coming home. I used to leave the house at 6:40 and get home about 6:30. While using the train I still left at 6:40AM, and usually was home at 6:45 (if I didn't hit the grocery store or something on the way back).

      Then, there's overtime. As i already mentioned, i worked a LOT less of it. When i did, it was on the train, or just a few quick e-mails from home (unless some server blew up). Coming in the door I didn't have a head full of crap to do. i used to walk in the door, scream hello, go right to the office, and sit there for an hour smelling food I was expecting to eat cold later. Using the train i came home, sat down, and spent family time with the family far more often than the prior situation. Yes I got home 20-30 minutes later on average, but I EARNED 30 minutes with my family I never used to get anyway!

      Also, driving is streessful. Many nights the fise and I got in fights over stupid stuff just because I was in a mood to fight. With the train ride to calm me down, even the side effects of a horrible day at the office never made it back to the house. ALL my family time was FAR more valuable too me, not to mention having more of it.

      Would I have prefered to work a lot closer to home and avoid the commute completely? Well, yea, sure. That is, if I could have had a comperable salry and work for a comperable company and earn comperable experience. unfortunately, that simply wasn't possible. My commute, saccrificing what an hour a day, earned my family a nice big house in a great neighborhood. We sold that house, moved south, and I now make a VERY comfortable living at another comperable company in a job my experiences earned me, and we have an even more massive house in a nicer neighborhood, and the money to have truly quality time together. I

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    51. Re:depends by digitalunity · · Score: 4, Informative

      I lived in Oregon for a long time and definitely, even in rural places you can't make it 20 miles without seeing at least 1 farm house, even when you're in the desert of eastern oregon.

      As for public transportation, Portland Oregon had it right. Light rails + very good bus system. This allows the speed of the train to be combined with the flexibility of useful bus routes.

      Lightrail alone isn't useful, I wish more people would realise that.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    52. Re:depends by socrplayr813 · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not really looking at the big picture though... Public Transportation over most of Europe is equally as excellent as here in Germany (not QUITE in some places, but still far better than other parts of the world I've lived in). Taking in Europe as a whole, the size of the place isn't nearly as much of an argument anymore - if the US states ran public transportation like European countries do, it'd work much better.

      How do you figure that size isn't an argument? Europe has well more than twice the population of the USA in roughly the same land area.

      Europe: 731,000,000 people in 10,180,000 sq. km (71.8 people per sq. km)
      USA: 306,374,000 people in 9,826,630 sq. km (31.2 people per sq. km)

      Adjust for the 'clumping' factor and the cost/viability of your system tanks. Adding up the population of the 10 largest US cities, I only get 25 million people. Add in maybe another 15 million for smaller cities, and you've still got over 265 million people who live in an area not well served by any commonly used type of mass transit system.

      My home town, which was actually several small towns next to each other, was a 15 minute drive from the nearest reasonable 'city,' with adequate stores for shopping, etc. We had a grocery store and a few small shops, but that was it. It was a 40 minute drive to anything I'd really consider a city (Albany, NY). Industry was mostly located around Albany, but was spread out among all of the smaller towns which surrounded it. The most sensible system I've come up with, cost-wise, would be roughly centralized station-to-station buses between towns. So, I'd have to take a minimum 40 minute bus ride from my home town to Albany, another bus to the appropriate town there (15 minutes), then another bus to my final destination (10 minutes). Assuming perfect timing all around (yeah, right) and a 5ish minute wait for each. You're looking at a 1.5 hour trip to work. Worse, it would only take a handful of buses to accommodate the commuters from my hometown, which means they can't run those buses all day. So we're left with a minimum 1.5 hour commute and a bunch of workers who can only move during designated 'commute' hours.

      So really, it certainly would be desirable to have good mass transit in the US, and there might be a feasible way to do it, but nobody's figured it out yet (outside of major urban centers).

      People seemed to come in clumps making public transportation easier.

      I'll definitely grant you that. Something I can never quite fathom when I visit the US is how hard it is to really be "in the middle of nowhere" (which, by my definition, means no people around).

      Not to sound like I'm blindly contradicting everything you've said, but...

      It's certainly possible to be away from people in the USA. If you had trouble, then you weren't in the right places. Probably your issue there is that 'middle of nowhere' in Germany is much, much closer (geographically) to 'city' than in the USA. We tend to have much more of a gray area in between.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    53. Re:depends by lymond01 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because I'm just a dumb animal and given the choice between expending more energy by biking to the store or expending less (of my own) energy by driving to the store, I'll just fall back on my survival instincts and drive. I may need that energy later to fend off a wild rabbit attack or something.

    54. Re:depends by Al+Dimond · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A cyclist riding on a road with shoulders won't help you out any more than one riding on a road without. It's illegal, dangerous, and stupid to swerve on and off the shoulder around parked cars -- the correct way to ride is at a basically constant distance inside the right lane, far enough from parked cars that they really have to try to nail you with a door. On a shoulder-less road or generally one without parking on streets a cyclist can at least ride all the way to the edge.

      And I can tell you, for sure, cyclists don't like riding on busy roads where it's hard to get around them. In a lot of places they don't have other serious options. Even for leisure riding most bike paths are inferior, primarily because their road crossings have poor visibility from the road and they tend to be laid out such that crossing any busy road is much more difficult than when crossing it on an actual street -- these issues, in practice, cause car-bike collisions. They also often have visibility problems affecting their own users: poor lighting, tight curves, and rapid grade changes. In Chicago, in various stretches, the lakefront bike trail has the advantage of running along the lake and thus having few street crossings. Even so, it exhibits all of these problems at various points -- the issues with car traffic while crossing Grand and Illinois downtown, and also on the roads going into the far-north side lakefront parks; the internal issues on the entire north side; on the south side it's really nice, but harder to access -- and it couldn't possibly be so nice without running along a lake and thus avoiding most street crossings.

      If I was on a bike stuck behind a kid on a Big Wheels I could probably get around him in any number of ways depending on the type of path. Bikes are narrow and nimble vehicles. It's not any cyclist's fault that you drive solo to work in a car wide enough to hold three people, and if you want to be annoyed at someone, try the people that design vehicles and cities such that you have few options but to do so. Better yet, turn that annoyance into ideas.

    55. Re:depends by David+Greene · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The real problem is population density.

      No, it isn't. It's a myth that the only places dense enough for public transit are the big cities. Places like Atlanta, Dallas, Charlotte, etc. are investing heavily in rail transit. These are places not exactly known for their urban density.

      The real problem is lack of political will. We could build some fantastic public transit systems today if we'd stop listening to the nutjobs who think the answer is to give everyone a car and let 'em fight it out on the (hugely expanded) freeways.

      --

  2. "Everyone's situation is different" by taustin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'll say. Here in southern California, I'd have to drive my car to any form of mass transit, and I'd have to drive farther than it is to work.

    1. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by ctmzeus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For sure - plus, even if you're saving on distance, taking a bus trip from Pasadena to Glendale (neighboring LA cities, about 10 minutes apart) is a 3-hour trek involving taking one bus downtown from Pasadena, another bus across downtown (leaving after a 40-minute wait), and a third bus back up to Glendale. San Diego is similar - occasionally you find a bus that goes from where you live to where you work, but in most cases you're talking about substantial personal cost to get TO the transit, and travel time that takes an average of four times as long.

      So, for one thing, the surveys should include "lost productivity" hours or something, since those four hours I lose every day by choosing to use mass transit could be worth more to me than what I spend on the difference.

    2. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, but in fairness that's because you don't have much of a public transportation system to speak of. It's not quite a fair argument to say, "investing in public transportation isn't worthwhile because the public transportation in my area is so underfunded and underdeveloped as to be virtually useless."

    3. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by bennomatic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, there really is no "one size fits all" solution. In the SF Bay Area, there are plenty of lost productivity hours in driving one's self. Hit the wrong traffic patch and it can take you 2 hours to get 15 miles. My wife and I used to work in neighboring office buildings, and we got our wires crossed one day that she had driven in to work, and so she left without me. I called her on the cell phone, found out where she was, and without her pulling over, I was able to jog up to meet her before she got on the bridge, even though she was four blocks ahead of me.

      One other solution that's really great--which I used in Oakland/SF commute--was the casual carpool. Cut through most of the traffic, ride in comfort (usually), no extra stops, and one direction is free. I wonder how many cities have that these days.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    4. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by ArsonSmith · · Score: 2

      Let me check your math:

      "about 21,000 miles"
      "carpooled 90% of the time"

      so 21k miles is 10% of 210k miles

      210k miles divided by ~260 work days a year

      My god you commute 400 miles to work one way or 800 miles round trip? Daily?

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    5. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by smidget2k4 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whereas over here in NYC I pay $1,008/yr for transportation costs. Add in a few plane trips throughout the year to get out of the city and that might go up to just under $1,700. Substantially less than most people pay for gas + insurance (not to mention repairs, parking, etc) for a year of mild use of a car.

      Though, unfortunately, this is one of the few areas of the country where the mass transit actually works well.

    6. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by dave562 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It depends on what part of SoCal you live in. I live in Long Beach and work in downtown LA. I drive my car to the train station and take the train into work. I basically skip the 710/5/101 commute. My boss used to live in Orange County (Santa Ana). He would pick up the Amtrak train at Anaheim Stadium and take it into Union Station. His commute was actually faster than if he drove. Mine is about 20 minutes longer than if I drove all the way. I could take the bus to the train station and completely skip the car commute, but that significantly increases the overall commute time.

    7. Re:"Everyone's situation is different" by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I live in NYC and ignoring travel outside of the city, I probably spend something like $240 a year on transportation (ignoring the portion of my taxes that go to the MTA).

      I ride a bike to work. I live in a neighborhood where there's stuff to do, and I can walk to the grocery store.

      I think people don't understand the real concept behind public transportation. They live in the suburbs, 5 miles from the nearest grocery store because they're in the middle of an enormous development, and "public transportation" for them means walking a mile to get onto a bus that will take them 4.5 miles to get within a mile of their grocery store. That's the public transportation in their area, at best.

      The problem is that we've designed our towns and cities and catered our lifestyles specifically to a culture of each person owning their own car. So looking through that prism, public transportation seems terribly inconvenient. But if we had designed our lifestyle and our towns around public transportation instead of cars, then I'm sure cars would seem terribly inconvenient. People would be saying, "Oh, well there's no road that goes right there, so I'd have to part a mile away and then walk. It's much easier to ride my bike on the bike path." Or whatever.

  3. Some More Numbers by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Well, from their calculator, they do include parking costs and they have a table for Maintenance (4.67 cents per mile on a medium car) and Tires (0.85 cents per mile on a medium car).

    And I think they're banking on things like if you are married and one of you drives and one rides the train or bus, you can cut down to one vehicle maybe:

    If you can live with one less vehicle in your household, you would save an additional $5,576 in car ownership cost (full-coverage insurance, license, registration, taxes, depreciation and finance charge).

    I like public transportation but in DC, the metro rail sucks. It sucks something fierce. The stops in DC are so so limited. I still end up taking taxis for most of the places I want to go ... or plan for an hour walk. I go to NYC and it's like heaven--I do not care of the condition of the train. DC rails shut down at midnight on a weeknight ... and sometimes you wait 15+ minutes for the next train. Transferring is almost out of the question. Wish it worked for me for my job but it doesn't. It barely works for me on my drinking expeditions.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Some More Numbers by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, I think when I was in DC, it was that the bars shut down at 2am but the public transportation shut down at 11pm. (something like that)

      I always thought, "Are they trying to get people to drive drunk?"

    2. Re:Some More Numbers by horigath · · Score: 3, Informative

      Buy a bicycle. It will take you less than half an hour. Heck, you might be able to walk that far in two hours if you are fit.

    3. Re:Some More Numbers by kaleth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You appear to have forgotten to convert between dollars and cents.

      0.85 cents x 60000 miles = 51000 cents = $510

      Which isn't overly high for a set of tires.

    4. Re:Some More Numbers by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Informative

      On friday/saturday, the trains run until 3.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    5. Re:Some More Numbers by The_Wilschon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do you work for Verizon? Using 0.85 cents per mile, I get 510 dollars over 60,000 miles. This seems pretty reasonable for a set of decent tires. OTOH, dividing your 48,000 dollars by 60,000 miles, I get a figure of 80 cents per mile, which is apparently the figure you used. You see the difference between 0.85 cents and 85 cents?

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
  4. What about time? by Swizec · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For most people time is money and if it takes longer to get somewhere by car, find a place to put said car, take the car for maintenance once in a while, get it fixed for scratches and other damage magically appearing on parking lots, the cost in time alone can amount to something quite high.

    Think about it, if you're paid $20 an hour and your car needs to be taken in for repairs, which let's say loses you a whole day of work, that's $160 right there. Money wasted just through time, then there's also the time needed for the repairs themselves and ...

    Also don't forget to take into account the money lost through the car's devaluement over time. With trains the operator takes all of that cost, with cars the owner - you, does.

    1. Re:What about time? by Swizec · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if I'm already paying for the train anyway, that's just one more reason to also use it!

    2. Re:What about TIME? by Ironica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You get paid for your car commute?

      Granted, time not spent at work is valuable too, and I make choices that allow me to spend more time with my kids and stuff.... but your $41/hour equivalent may be exaggeration.

      Finally, I can read, talk on the phone, etc. while I'm on the bus or walking. Can't do that in the car. The time I spend driving may be shorter, but that time is spent accumulating stress, not relaxing and regenerating.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    3. Re:What about time? by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly: time is money. My commute is 25-30 minutes each way, every day (about 25 miles). But by bus, I'm probably looking at 2-4 hours each way. No matter how much I make, a bus ride is really out of the question.

      As for maintenance, I don't take my car in to some monkey for repairs, I do them myself. That alone saves lots of time, as I can change my oil in 20 minutes in my garage at any time that's convenient for me, even if it's 11PM or on a weekend.

      Car's devaluement (I think you mean depreciation)? Not a problem. Buy a used Japanese car and keep it 10+ years. My car is 15 years old and still works just fine. The interior is even in excellent shape (except for spills on the carpet, which are my fault), unlike my cow-orkers who complain about the interiors in their American cars falling apart in 5 years.

      And trains are totally out of the question, unless you happen to live in a city that was laid out in a straight line. Modern cities are laid out in two dimensions, not one, with lots of sprawl, making rail transport pretty much infeasible.

    4. Re:What about time? by Toonol · · Score: 2, Informative

      And if a train or bicycle take an extra hour every day, every day... that's the equivalent of a few thousand dollars wasted every year.

      The biggest problem I've seen with these sorts of studies is that they really don't consider realistic decisions from the perspective of the consumer. Even if I bicycle to work 75% of the time, I NEED a car for the occasional long trip, and foul weather. Maybe I need a SECOND car for my wife, for the exact same reason. Now I have a sunk cost of the car, maintenance, and insurance. Suddenly, public transportation is only saving me the marginal cost of fuel, which really isn't much in the big picture.

    5. Re:What about time? by Sun.Jedi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      what about the time the trains/busses waste?

      - Time waiting for the damned thing to arrive
      - Time waiting for the really-really important cargo train to have the right-of-way on the track you're on
      - Time traveling to or from train/bus stations
      - Time spent traveling really slowly on inclement weather days

      I find it amusing an ironic that this report comes from 'Boston; where the notorious MBTA (Most Broken Trains Anywhere) is so horribly ineffective, it's not even funny. I guess if they compare it to rush hour on the Mass Pike, they may have a case.

    6. Re:What about time? by Swizec · · Score: 2, Funny

      Exactly: time is money. My commute is 25-30 minutes each way, every day (about 25 miles). But by bus, I'm probably looking at 2-4 hours each way. No matter how much I make, a bus ride is really out of the question.

      That's very interesting, my daily commute is 10 minutes by foot, whereas by car it's 10 minutes+10 minutes for finding a place to park. Guess the difference is I live in the city and you're suburbia?

    7. Re:What about time? by Gonoff · · Score: 3, Informative

      We tried it in the UK. Privately owned railway systems have proved much more expensive and not neccesarily any better than the fully nationalised British Rail that went before it.

      They do have some prettier looking trains now though...

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    8. Re:What about TIME? by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Finally, I can read, talk on the phone, etc. while I'm on the bus or walking. Can't do that in the car. The time I spend driving may be shorter, but that time is spent accumulating stress, not relaxing and regenerating.

      Don't know what bus you have been on, but on all the ones I have been on, its been anything but relaxing or regenerating. You sit down next to some person who smells, listen to half a dozen phone conversations, see someone who you just know has every type of communal sickness imaginable, etc.

      On the other hand, in my car I can mostly control the noise level, can choose my route to route around traffic or construction areas, and I don't have to be near annoying people.

      Then again, I've only rode the bus when I was on business trips, so your results might vary. (I live in the suburbs and work in a larger suburb so riding the bus isn't exactly an option unless I feel like walking 25 miles to the nearest bus stop when work is only a 30 mile drive)

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    9. Re:What about time? by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Private companies are always better. You can choose not to support them. For example, if you don't believe that putting in a railway to a certain place is a good idea, the most you can do is not vote for it, and if you are in the minority, you end up still paying for it. With a private company, you don't have to pay for a companies mismanagement*.

      *This is assuming that the government isn't like America in 2008/2009 and bailing out any halfway failing company left and right at taxpayer expense

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    10. Re:What about time? by drsquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Being privatised or not has no bearing on whether you have to pay for it. There are self-sustaining public transport systems, and heavily-subsidised private systems. The problem with fully privatised systems is that they have a de-facto monopoly due to the barriers to entry.

      And it's funny how you say private companies are always better when they're all failing.

    11. Re:What about time? by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Public transport can be fast if it's done well.

      If you're living somewhere with high enough population density to make decent public transport practical (London or New York spring to mind) then you're also living somewhere with a population density that is too high to have everyone driving in to the city every morning without causing gridlock (again, see London/New York).

      Now that I think of it, the other extreme can be true too: on a long, empty motorway you're still constrained by the speed limit (and general safety/sanity, if you do choose to exceed it) whereas high-speed rail links can average 170+ mph. Even the (not nearly as fast) rail service we have up and down the UK can take more than an hour off what would be a 3.5 hour drive.

      On the other hand, poor reliability, infrequent services and unpleasant conditions can easily ruin these advantages. It just depends on what you've got to work with and how it's run, really.

    12. Re:What about time? by SpazmodeusG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With some things like water mains, telephone lines, rail network and roads you simply can't have multiple private companies running multiple lines in parrallel. It's not efficient and you will tend to get monopolies forming in each area as no company would want to move into an area where someone else already provides lines. With their advantage of already having the infrastructure a price war favours them and besides, a price war is a lose-lose for you and them, as is splitting the market.

      Really for situations where there's a certain type of infrastructure from point A to point B there only needs to be 1 provider. That's where government makes sense. The ineffiency of the government is still better than having multiple providers running parralel lines.

      I don't live in America but i've heard this is exactly what is happening with your telecom services. Each provider has a monopoly over a different area. No one wants to move into an area that's already serviced by someone else, having 2 services in 1 area makes it not worthwhile for both private companies. Compare to the Swedish Post and Telecom Agency who were on Slashdot a couple of days ago for offering 200Mbps services on the cheap. Swedens population density is lower than the US btw.

  5. It's Time, not Money by joebok · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For me it is simply a question of time - time spent behind the wheel of a car is wasted time as far as I'm concerned. On transit I can sleep, read, email/browse on the blackberry, even get out a laptop. I've made it a point the last couple times I've moved to make sure I have good access to transit options.

  6. The article doesn't seem to include depreciation by cshay · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Your average new car costs very roughly $3000 a year in depreciation. It may be less if you have a cheap japanese model, and much more if you have a American SUV. A car is very expensive compared to taking trains when you factor in depreciation and insurance.

  7. Insurance? by saforrest · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is the discrepancy made up of tolls, repairs, the cost of buying a car and ignoring train station parking fees?

    I think you're making one rather unjustified assumption: that anyone who takes the train will still own a car.

    If you live sufficiently close to the train station or can bike/take public transit to it, you can validly ignore parking fees, car maintenance, and importantly insurance.

    1. Re:Insurance? by xaxa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even if one can commute to and from work on public transit, one still needs a car:

      I don't own a car, and neither do any of my friends (and we could all easily afford a used car, and most of us could afford a new car).

      to carry home a week's worth of groceries for the family or other large loads,

      Well, none of us have a family, which helps.

      When I was taking the train to work every day, I'd often shop twice a week. The supermarket is about 30 seconds walk from the station. This is good for getting fresh bread and vegetables too. Sometimes I'd load up on heavy stuff (fruit juice etc) -- as much as I could carry -- and walk 100m to the bus stop, and wait for the specific bus that stopped outside my house. It would be convenient to load up a car with beer for a party, but I could either get this delivered, use a taxi, or ask people to bring their own beer to the party.

      Now I cycle to work, so I stop by the supermarket on my way home once a week.

      If I had to shop for four, and was determined not to own a car, I'd either have stuff delivered or buy a bike trailer. More likely, I'd register to use the local on-street rental cars (StreetCar).

      to go places that public transit doesn't go, such as out of town

      The transport continues out of town here. If I'm really seeing someone in the absolute middle of nowhere, they can pick me up from the nearest station (and will probably expect to). Or I'll take my bike on the train and cycle for 10 minutes at the end.

      to go at times when public transit is not in service, such as nights, Saturday evenings, Sundays, or major holidays.

      So far, needing to go when there's no public transport isn't enough reason for me to get my own car (transport within the city runs all night, but the middle-of-nowhere stuff doesn't, but I hardly ever need it).

  8. Err, forgetting some things much? by ScottyB · · Score: 3, Informative

    Owning a car costs far more than just your monthly loan payment. I had an old piece of junk which cost me just $1000 a year in insurance since I did not need comprehensive. My guess is that you're looking at least at $2000-3000 a year in insurance alone for a standard newish car (banks require comprehensive for anything they have a loan out for). Add to that a monthly payment for the car of say $300-400, which gives a total of $4000-5000 a year, and you're easily at the $12,600 estimate.

    1. Re:Err, forgetting some things much? by Burdell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How bad is your driving record (or everybody else's where you live)? I have a 2 year old car that costs me under $700/year, and that is good coverage with State Farm (not some no-name insurance company that doesn't actually back up the claim).

    2. Re:Err, forgetting some things much? by MaizeMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      A lot of it has to do with where you live. When I moved I kept the same insurance company, same car, and my rates nearly tripled moving from the midwest to big west coast city.

  9. People often ignore depreciation by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's mainly the cost of buying a car. The value of a car goes down the more you drive it. Drive it 200,000 miles and the car you might have bought new for $22K is now worth $2K. That's ten cents per mile. If you don't drive your car into the ground, and buy a new one after five years or so, then you probably lost value equivalent to 20 cents per mile. And then there's the cost of insurance. To get the big savings, you'd have to be able to do without a car, or if you're in a couple, share one car instead of having two.

    1. Re:People often ignore depreciation by bennomatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like I said above, I'm not sure I buy into the depreciation logic. I bought my car in 1997, paid it off by mid-2000, and I plan to drive it until it stops. Should I be doing some sort of GAAP accounting that indicates that I am getting some sort of unusual profit from my vehicle? To me, it's worth exactly what it was worth when I first bought it, because I'm not planning to sell the darn thing, and it still gets me exactly where I want to go.

      Depreciation is only an issue if you've gotta always have a new car, so you're planning on swapping out every 2-5 years.

      Of course, if it's a vehicle for your own business, that's a whole different issue. But in that case, you should probably be leasing anyway.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
  10. 100 miles to the nearest commuter train, by JesseL · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Let's see; I've got a 4 mile round trip, on a motorcycle that gets 35MPG, with free parking, plus $75/year insurance and $12/year registration, say $200/year for maintenance... I'm looking at $350 per year in in commuting costs.

    --
    "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    1. Re:100 miles to the nearest commuter train, by ArsonSmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I tried this while going to school. What you are missing is that $150,000 medical bill when someone plows into you and you break L1 and L2 in your back.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  11. Driving is much better... by strangeattraction · · Score: 3, Funny

    Muni cost $40 dollars per month pre-tax money. Car $9 per day parking + aggravation + gas + maintenance. Let me see. If I could only do math... Of course driving is better because I get to cut other drivers off, flip them the bird and bang on my steering wheel. What more could you want from life?

  12. Doesn't pan out by tsotha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with these sorts of studies is they lump in the fixed and variable costs for car ownership. The only way you get rid of the fixed costs (like insurance and registration) is to get rid of the car altogether, and there aren't too many areas in the US where that's a feasible option. Where I live public transportation to most of the places I go simply doesn't exist. I can take the train to work (though I'd have to ride my bike to the train station), but if I get called up for jury duty, say, without my car I'm taking a taxi for as long as the trial lasts.

    So when I take public transportation I'm reducing variable costs - depreciation, gas, maintenance. But there's no way I can come out ahead this way, since I'm still paying insurance and registration on the car that's sitting at home.

    1. Re:Doesn't pan out by cmowire · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I know that this is not something a good chunk of the slashdot crowd would have experience with, but a lot of people are living together or married.

      One car per family starts to become practical.

    2. Re:Doesn't pan out by jbengt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you can plausibly get rid of a car, you can typically rent a car for those occasions when you really need one, and still end up with much reduced costs over owning that car.
      This was my strategy for a while when we had only one car and my wife needed it every day, but I could take the bus to work.

  13. What about TIME? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If I were to commute using public transportation, I would add 45 to 60 min to each direction of the commute.

    At my salary, ($41 per hour) this equates to a loss of over $20K per year.

    I'll drive my car thank you very much!

  14. Big savings are when you need fewer cars by wsanders · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In my neighborhood families own three, four, even more cars. The big savings come when you can reduce the number of cars you own.

    WTF do you need three or more cars for in a 2-person household?

    I suppose they assumed, in a two-earner household, that you could reduce the number of cars by one if one person was a transit rider.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:Big savings are when you need fewer cars by lwsimon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My parents currently have 5 people in their household, and own 8 vehicles. That's not so bad, considering they also run a small farm.

      I don't understand why people make poor financial choices though, by owning more than they can afford. I also don't understand how people think they have the right to enforce their own judgement over people's finances.

      --
      Learn about Photography Basics.
    2. Re:Big savings are when you need fewer cars by GameMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which would be a disingenuous thing to add to such a cost estimate because the extra cars are, obviously, a luxury that the owner has decided to pay for above-and-beyond their commuting costs. An apples-to-apples comparison should assume only the cost of maintaining/operating one car vs. the cost of one person commuting by mass transit.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    3. Re:Big savings are when you need fewer cars by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My car, her car, track car. Of course, the track car hasn't been bought, gets awful mileage (5), and gets driven 2000 miles each year. Oh, and I just got a 500cc motorcycle - 60mpg and good for commuting. Wonder how that compares to the bus.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    4. Re:Big savings are when you need fewer cars by p!ngu · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can't understand how people think they have the right to enforce their own judgement over other people's judgement. ohhhhh shiiiiiiiiii

  15. Gothenburg, Sweden by pipatron · · Score: 4, Informative

    I pay about 500 USD per year for free public transport 24/7 in my city. According to this Swedish checklist, the yearly cost for purchasing and owning a 10 year old tiny car would be about 3750 USD, thus, I save 3250 USD. If I would get a new car, the savings would be around 7100 USD.

    (since I don't have or need a car, I will of course have to take the purchasing price into account.)

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  16. I think it's worth it. by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Taking the train instead of driving would allow me to save thousands of dollars in gas, car payments, tolls, parking frees, tickets, maintenance, and etc. Maybe not five figures, but still a lot of money. There are non-financial indirect benifits to taking the train too.

    On the train, I feel safer knowing an accident probably won't happen and that if it does, it probably won't kill me. I also don't have the headache of police stops and tickets. Additionally, I get to spend the commuting time reading, coding, sleeping, etc. It's much less stressful and allows me to be more productive. I know that my carbon footprint is lower and I'm doing less to support despotic oil regimes. I get exercise walking between public transport stops. Unfortunately, I live too far out in the suburbs to make commuting by train to work in the city practical. It just takes too long (frankly driving takes too long as well). I can only take public transport on the weekends and for personal travel. I'm currently looking for work in the Chicago area, and will strongly considering moving to take advantage of the city's train system.

    --
    ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
  17. I live just outside Boston by Enry · · Score: 3, Informative

    and I have to commute in every day. Here's a breakdown, as I did each for two years apiece:

    - Drive to local T stop: $5/day parking plus ~$60 for T pass, plus gas.

    - Drive and park at work: $240/mo plus gas. I would drive about 15k/yr (work plus other driving)

    - Drive 1 mi to bus stop: donation to local church to park in their lot (few hundred/yr), $64 for T/bus pass. In the 2.5 years I've been taking the bus, I've driven about 15,000 mi.

    Now taking the bus takes a bit longer, but my employer is nice enough to allow me to work from home one day a week, and I often fall asleep or do work while on the bus, as opposed to getting peeved at the traffic around me.

    YMMV. As for me, I'll keep taking the bus.

  18. NJ to Manhattan data point by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 2, Informative

    I take a bus to and from work. It costs $12.80 per day. The car alternative is a 35 mile drive, $10 to park and $3 in PATH train. So save whatever 70 miles in a car costs. Call that 3 gallons of gas = $6. Times 250 days a year = $1500. 17k miles on a car = ?$2000?
    I don't pay for parking at the bus stop.

    --
    This post climbed Mt. Washington.
  19. Motorcycles... by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not for everyone, but my honda gets 35 + mpg.
    I put in 20 bucks a month of gas into it, and about 20 into the car, for taking the kids to school, and stormy days.
    Rideable 65-80% of the year in midwest. (Depending on your tolerance for cold.)
    My "commute" is only about 7 miles each way.

    --
    If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
  20. In Chicago...but other places... by Suisho · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think it truly depends on where you live- and the biggest thing is time. Currently I'm jobless in Chicago- train and busses really do cut gas costs. This city is metered like NUTS and residential zones have resident only parking zones designated by a specific city sticker.

    Downtown is more nuts. Two hour Parking is 3.00- all day can run between 7-20 depending on the place. So- working in downtown, it would save TONS of money.

    When I lived in LA - I litterally paid $600 for 8 months of parking. It averages to about 9 dollars a day. Even if you were a patient in the hospital, if you had a car there- it was 9 dollars a day. Ouch. Public transit was the way to go.

    But- when I lived in Baton Rouge Louisiana the public transportation was nil. It took hours to get anywhere, and it didn't necessarily travel through the whole city. So- you really HAD to have a car... public transportation was very inconsistent, and it took forever. Just time lost I think makes up for the expenses of a car. Parking was basically free everywhere except a few places. But, there was always some backlot to park in. A 20 minute car ride turning into a 2 hour bus trip that may or may not be on time... its risky at best.

    Overall, its really the location. Big metro areas with well established transportation, it can be a wonderful thing. It does save money. But other places, it ends up being way much of a hassle, and time consuming and may not go to the locations that someone needs.

  21. Tax numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    IRS is giving 55 cents/mile, so one has to assume that's a generic "operating cost" of a car (gas, depreciation, maintenance).

    0.55 * 15000 + 460 * 12 = $13770

    So, close enough for government work.

    YMMV, of course.

  22. Re:The article doesn't seem to include depreciatio by triffid_98 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your average new car costs very roughly $3000 a year in depreciation. It may be less if you have a cheap japanese model, and much more if you have a American SUV. A car is very expensive compared to taking trains when you factor in depreciation and insurance

    That's a false assumption. Some people buy used cars, which pretty much stop depreciating after a while. You may pay a bit more in maintenance, but you'll make up that just in the cheaper insurance rates.

    I'll occasionally take the train, but it just doesn't go where I need to go most of the time. Ergo I need a car, and I need insurance, so the only savings are gas + wear and tear. It would be great if we lived in Europe where mass transit was functional, but in many parts of the USA it just isn't.

  23. Not everyone has access to transit by lwsimon · · Score: 3, Informative

    Don't forget about those of us in rural areas. I carpool with a friend as often as I can, but I live 30 miles from my workplace. No one is going to be running a train from a city of 250 to a city of 10,000, so personal transportation is the only option.

    --
    Learn about Photography Basics.
    1. Re:Not everyone has access to transit by iroll · · Score: 5, Funny

      Exactly! I'm a bush pilot in Alaska, and I think this article is just silly! Sure, ON PAPER public transit in NYC may seem to be cheaper than my float-equipped Cessna, but they're making all sorts of false assumptions! For example, I do my own maintenance--where's THAT in their spreadsheet?

      OH WAIT--THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT RURAL TRANSPORTATION, WHICH EVERYBODY KNOWS IS DIFFERENT THAN COMMUTING IN MAJOR URBAN AREAS.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    2. Re:Not everyone has access to transit by sitkill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, pragmatically, public transit only works for people who are directly on the line AND work in the downtown core. I've lived in small cities (100k~) and public transit just isn't feasible. I moved to Toronto (3mil+) and as long as you work downtown, you can basically not need a car at all. The study doesn't really define that break...

  24. Incomplete calculations by diagonti · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This study is comparing apples and oranges.

    The study assumes you are getting rid of your car to use public transit. There are so many things that are not public transit accessible that still require a car that they are not putting any replacement cost in for.

    In Boston, a rental car for a weekend with insurance is ~$300. I use my car 3 weekends a month to travel outside of public transit range. Adding in the cost of getting a rental each weekend and suddenly 12.6k I'm saving is reduced by 7.8k (plus fuel costs and a lot of overhead dealing with rentals). The study is assuming depreciation of the car -- which likely means its assuming a purchase of new car. The cost conscious folks are either purchasing used cars or driving cars for far longer than a normal depreciation period.

    And this doesn't even count the opportunity cost of travel time. I live in a near suburb (Arlington) and work in Cambridge. I can walk/bus to the T, and take the T to work. It takes about 1.25 hours each way. It takes me 20 minutes each way driving. I value the ~2 hours per day I save by driving pretty highly. Admittedly, if I have to drive during rush hours, my commute goes to 45-50 minutes each way and public transit becomes much more attractive.

  25. Re:The article doesn't seem to include depreciatio by Burdell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That doesn't go on forever though. If you buy a $15,000 car, it can't depreciate $3000/year for more than 5 years (and it doesn't do that anyway). My first new car was a $20,000 Honda CR-V. After 10 years, I sold it for $6000; that's an average of only $1400 per year. If you buy a new car every year, you may see a hit of $3000/year, but you don't have to buy a new car every year either.

  26. it isn't just the numbers by ZipprHead · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I live in San Francisco and walk/train/bus everyplace. (I do not have a bike) When needed I have access to car via a car sharing program. For 50$ a month I get a pass that gets me anyplace (within the city) with in a relatively timely manner. I have access to a car sharing program that regularly costs me 50$ a month or so on average. Throw in a rental car every two months for a weekend at 100$.

    So it averages out to 150$ a month (gas included) to get me every place I want to go.

    But really what gets me is the lifestyle benefits, I never have to worry about parking/oil changes/gas prices/insurance nor drinking and driving. I walk a lot and it keeps me looking good and in great shape. Not to mention walking is very relaxing vs driving, I read and listen to pod casts. So not only do I save a lot of money (vs a 500$ monthly car payment), I've greatly reduced my carbon impact, I have less stress in my life, and I'm in better physical shape. How can you put a price on that?

    Yes, everyone's situation is very different, I consider myself very fortunate, but then again I brought about my current situation by actively choosing to create this lifestyle.

  27. Sorry, public transportation.. by technos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now here's the problem in the calculation. Car round trip in heavy traffic is about an hour, and depending on the day the bus can take anywhere from 2:30 to 3:15 to cover the same 40 miles.

    That's 390-585 hours per year to save $320.

    Until the prevailing wage falls to 50 cents an hour, no thanks.

    Ran the calculation for my wife as well. If she were able to take a bus instead of driving, she'd waste only 195 hours per year, but public transportation would save her -$18.

    --
    .sig: Now legally binding!
  28. Guys, we're geeks! by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Last time I looked, what it cost me to ride the Internet to work was £12 per month. That's way cheaper than taking the car... All right, I confess I actually go into work one week in every two. But that still costs a heck of a lot less than commuting every day, and gives me a heck of a lot more time, too.

    Oh - and when you do have to go into work, push-bikes come cheaper than cars (and in urban areas are usually faster).

    --
    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
  29. Google Maps to calculate costs by AIXadmin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Google Maps will help you calculate the cost of public transit vs. driving. After you map out your commute. Just click on the public transit button. About half way down it will show you a public transit vs. driving comparison.

    1. Re:Google Maps to calculate costs by eh2o · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The cost estimate for public transit is the actual cost that you pay as an individual to ride the bus or train. It doesn't factor in the cost to the public, i.e. taxes.

      Meanwhile, the cost estimate for driving is the theoretical cost that includes the cost of owning and maintaining the car itself in addition to gas etc. Depending on the actual worth and reliability of your car, this estimate can be quite generous.

      So one of them integrates hidden costs, and the other one ignores them... apples to oranges.

    2. Re:Google Maps to calculate costs by portnoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The amount you pay in state and federal taxes isn't going to change based on which commuting option you take. So, they're treating it as a sunk cost in that comparison, which seems reasonable.

      Your point about the cost of owning and maintaining the car would be a better one, but if I recall correctly, Google's cost values are based on allowable tax deductions (and as such are probably already on the low side).

  30. Why go at all? by exi1ed0ne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the technology we have today, there is zero reason to move your biomass to another place unless you have to actually touch something. The whole concept of "going to work" is silly, and a hold over from a bygone era. People seriously need to get behind teleworking with enthusiasm. Can't get much greener/cheaper than that!

    --
    Pessimists.net - as if life wasn't depressing enough.
  31. Bicycling is my magic bullet... by liquidsunshine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a college student in Tampa, I've found that bicycling is the best way to go. It's faster (I zoom by stopped cars on the roads during rush hour), it's cheaper (no gas, insurance, very low up-front cost), it's cleaner (the only greenhouse gases are my own breathing), and it's healthier (instead of gaining the "freshman 15," I gained the "freshman -50"). It wouldn't be ideal if you have to commute more than 20 miles, but for anything less than that, especially in town, it's perfect.

  32. I did the commuter rail thing by squarooticus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And it didn't work for me. Here's the comparison:

    Driving:
    35 minutes door to door
    $200/mo for parking + $100/mo for gas @ $2.50/gallon = $300/mo
    Have car at my disposal for errands or to go to hockey after work
    Can leave whenever I'm done, and have freedom to stay after work with friends

    Commuter rail:
    1:05 door to door
    $80/mo for parking at the commuter rail station (2 miles away) + $150/mo for the commuter rail pass = $230/mo
    No car after work, which means I have to go home first to do things, wasting even more time
    Have to leave at particular times: if I miss the 7:30 train, for instance, it's 90 minutes until the next one

    I need a car in either case because there's no zipcar anywhere near where I live and I need a car to perform errands and to cart myself to/from hockey. So I'm not factoring the cost of the car itself into either, though there is an additional penalty on driving for added wear and tear on the car.

    So commuter rail is slightly less expensive in dollars per commute, but that doesn't come anywhere close to compensating me for the wasted time and lack of convenience.

    I'll drive, thank you.

    --
    [ home ]
  33. Re:Well time means I drive myself by laughing+rabbit · · Score: 2, Informative

    First...I live in the Atlanta outer suburbs and you are a fool if you leave any property unlocked. I live on 15 acres where I can still use firearms, and stuff disappears overnight.

    Public transit does not work for those of us out here though. Drive 6 miles to a regional bus station that only drops me downtown. Take the train back uptown, catch a bus to the area where I work. My schedule is shifted to late morning - early evening, so the bus does not run past a certain street. Get off and walk a mile. Takes about 2 - 3 hours to commute and $5 in fares.

    I drive it in 45 minutes. No parking, 20-21 mpg, so about $50 in gas a week currently. We have a farm, so I would still have to own a vehicle or two. I do value my time, though I would take transit if it were more convenient. I imagine reading, working with my laptop, all sorts of things. I stopped driving aggressively, so I do manage to solve programming problems in my head going down the highway. More soothing than trying to wring another minute or two out of my commute. Plus with speeding, mpg drops to 16-17. Adds up over the course of a year.

    I lived in town for 18 years and was never a victim of crime. Out here, I keep the guns loaded.

    --
    No incumbents, not no where, not no how.
    Vote them out every term.
  34. Depreciation costs are total nonsense by alexschmidt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whenever, I read these studies, they want to factor in depreciation. Unless you are running a business, DEPRECIATION IS NOT A COST! You bought the vehicle and your money has already been spent. It's gone! You CANNOT expense it a second time. Once the car is bought and paid for, your expenses are gas, maintenance and insurance. The one thing these studies rarely ask is: What is your time worth to you?

  35. Driving costs != Fuel costs by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most of the costs to drive are hidden. Gas is cheap, even at three bux/gallon. You have to consider:

    1) Purchase of the car! Or did you ever stop to think about the 400
    or more/month you pay? And even when you aren't paying this, you are probably paying more on:

    2) Cost of repairs. Tires, brakes, transmissions...

    3) Insurance and accidents. Neither are cheap, one partially covers the cost of the other.

    4) Police action. I'm a good driver, with zero serios accidents in 20 years of driving, and two fender benders. I still get a ticket every other year or so, and always have.

    Etc. The IRS gives a standard deduction of about 0.50 / mile, and that's about right. It's what my company reimburses for travel on trips. It only costs about 1.5 times as much to fly a private plane!

    Cars are much more expensive than we give them credit for!

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  36. True Cost by sexconker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cost of fuel
    Cost of parking
    Cost of maintenance

    Cost of getting to station (and back)
    Cost of fare (round trip)
    Cost of rental/transport to destination (and back)
    Cost of wasted time
    Cost of being a damned loser without a car

    Trains are for freight and densely packed urban areas where traffic and parking is a huge issue.
    This is why you'll see such huge support by the neo-urbanites.

    If you want to add in:
    Cost of car
    Cost of registration
    Cost of insurance

    You need to also add in:
    Cost of not being able to get out in case of emergency
    Cost of having to hire movers anytime you buy a piece of furniture
    Etc.

  37. Here's one Boston area person's computation.... by jg · · Score: 2, Informative

    I live about 22 miles outside of Cambridge, where I have often worked. So that is 44 miles/day@ $.5 per mile (U.S. government reimbursement). Your actual costs will vary; but the government rate isn't far from reality. Parking is about $20/day in Cambridge; sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the lot.

    $5500 - Mileage
    $5000 - Parking

    Round numbers for automobile commute: $10,500

    Note that there are hidden costs of road maintenance, etc.

    Additionally, it is my time; on the commuter rail, at least I get (at least) an hour of my time back.

    $2400/year - Commuter rail ticket (also covers unlimited subway use)
    $1500/year - Mileage to train station.

    Commuter rail commute is therefore about $3900, before any tax breaks (or lower auto insurance rate, due to less mileage and lower theft rates).

    Savings for me (excluding tax break and insurance break) was about $6-7K/year.

  38. trains save a bit by miskatonicU · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I dislike commuting, but at least public transit gives me the chance to read, emulate vax or make awkward conversation while I do it. I use the WMATA, D.C.-area system. It costs me $140 to ride both ways every work day for a month. If I park in the garage every day, that adds $90. If I tax the bus to the train every day (convenient), that adds $50. At the moment I have a free ride every day. Parking at work would cost me the same $140 a month, and the total cost of that with gas would be around $200. The savings are negligable, until you factor in extra repairs due to more road miles. This would increase the mileage I put on our car by a factor of two.

  39. Comparison by Kazymyr · · Score: 2, Informative

    White River Junction, VT to Stamford, CT:
    Amtrak: $59
    gas for car: $19
    QED

    --
    I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
  40. Living in Adelaide by hAN+sHAN · · Score: 2, Informative
    I live in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, South Australia (about 12km north of the city centre). We (my girlfriend and myself) live maybe 500m from the nearest train station, but we drive to work in the city every morning. Why?
    1. Between the two of us, we have to pay roughly $11 each day to catch the train to and from work. By contrast, it costs us roughly $50 to fill the car, and that usually lasts us around 3 weeks of driving to and from work every work day. We can park for free within a 10-15 minute walk of where we work in the city centre.
    2. Paying for a train ticket does not get you a seat on the train. By the time the train reaches our stop, it is typically standing room only. There have been mornings where we haven't even been able to get onto the train.
    3. The trains here are so woefully maintained (they're still diesel) that you can't see out of most of the windows.
    4. Maybe I'm getting old, but I don't really want to listen to some delinquent kid blasting American hip hop crap out of his mobile phone (cell phone) at top volume all the way into town under the false assumption that his taste in music is so exquisite that everyone on the train needs desperately to be exposed to it.
    5. Having a crowd of people physically push you out of the way in order to beat you onto the train is not a pleasant way to start your day.
    6. If we want to catch the train, we leave the house around 7am to drive to the station (the distance isn't walkable, due to weird development issues going on where we live), and we arrive in the city at about 8am. When we drive, we can leave the house around 7am and we're in the city by 7.20am.
    7. The trains here are notoriously unreliable. In summer, the tracks buckle from the heat and we can be left stranded in an un-airconditioned train carriage (no openable windows) for an hour or more. I'd rather be at home spending time with my girlfriend than on a hot train with some fat dude's sweaty armpit shoved in my face.

    There are other reasons, but I think I've made my point. Even when we factor in the costs of owning our car (insurance, registration, etc), it is cheaper to drive to work. Even if we didn't drive to work, we'd need a car anyway. And even if it wasn't cheaper to drive, it would be worth the additional cost to save my sanity. The drive is pleasant and quick, the car is warm in winter and cool in summer, I get to listen to whatever music I like, and I'm guaranteed a seat every morning.

    If the state government here wants us to be greener (I can only assume that they don't), here's some advice: upgrade your public transport. We pay enough for it.

  41. I live one mile... by glitch23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    from where I work. I have a car and a motorcycle. During bad weather I use the car (sporty car so still not great in snow despite being FWD) but when I can I use the motorcycle. I just recently moved here in February but I was only 10 minutes (7 miles) away before with the same job. I'd ride a bike to work if I could but I'd have to traverse a 2 lane US Route that converts to 4 lanes half way to work. It would be too dangerous and that is assuming I'd be allowed to have the bicycle on the road because there is no shoulder. If I lived in Florida instead of WV it would be easier to enjoy the motorcycle nearly all year round but alas that isn't possible in the nice winters here in WV. My 17.7 gallon tank in my car lasts about 3 weeks which includes about 40 miles of travel on weekends; more than 3 weeks if I use the motorcycle a lot to get to work. Because I still take trips I can't get rid of the car and the motorcycle is a toy (and paid off).

    --
    this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
  42. COST OF TIME by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or you could be reading a book, or napping, or using a laptop on the train/bus, while "missing" time spent on the sofa watching TV and drinking beer.

    If you have important family stuff to do, the best way to resolve a commuting time problem is to find a job closer to home. Of the various things about raising children, finding a job closer to home (or moving home closer to work) is not one of the harder ones.

  43. my Math, in Toronto by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 3, Informative
    Me vs. wife. I insist on public, she insists on driving.

    Public: TTC, $2.75 each way. I can get a monthly pass for $105. Assume worst: $2.75 each way, 7 days a week.

    Car: 2002 Honda Civic, bought used, $10,000, to be paid over 5 years ($2120 yr) or $5.80 day.

    Car insurance: We're old, so we only pay about $500 year, about $1.36 a day.

    Car Maintenance averages $800 year (tires, brakes, etc. etc.) about $2.19 a day

    distance: 6 miles each way.

    Gas mileage on car: in city, 24 mpg.

    Gas price: $0.85 per liter, roughly = $3.25 gallon, so Cost in gas to drive downtown each day: ~$1.66

    Parking downtown = $8 day. (She has a good lot)

    So, per day: Car loan: $5.80
    Insurance: $1.36
    Maintain: $2.19
    Cost Gas: $1.66
    Parking: $8.00
    ---------------------
    total per day: 19.01 per day.
    x 365 = $6938.65 total cost per year for commuting.

    total cost per year for TTC: 365 x (2 x 2.75)= $2007.50

    Difference? Almost $5000.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  44. And there in lies the problem by thoglette · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Where I live public transportation to most of the places I go simply doesn't exist.

    And there in lies the problem. Somehow, we are entitled to 6 lane freeways and highways but urban, suburburban and interstate rail is, wooo, scary socialist stuff that "loses money". Do that for six decades and you get a serious problem. Like Dallas

    --
    -- Butlerian Jihad NOW!
  45. I'd pay for decent public transport. by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Even if public transport was "only" 25% cheaper than a car, I'd still prefer it. Why? Because of the value of my time. Until we have fully automated self-driving cars, I can't read, nap, work, or simply daydream in a car. I have to actively drive it, and I'm pretty damn sure at least 50% of the other drivers are trying to read, nap, work, or daydream behind the wheel.

  46. Lost in translation... by GameMaster · · Score: 3, Informative

    The problem here isn't that these newspapers are fawning over this report. The problem is that the point of the report has been mangled by incompetent journalists. The original report is about replacing your car with public transportation, not just your work commute. That's why they end up using 15000 miles (which is absurdly high for an average commute but much more reasonable for a total year of family driving).

    I do find the parking rate high but, then again, my commute is the reverse (from the city into the suburbs) and my company has free parking. Even if it would be more reasonable to assume for a lower parking cost, $2.039 is absurdly low for gas (here in the Chicago area, things are up to around $2.50 from a previous low of about $2.19 at the cheapest gas stations).

    --

    Rules of Conduct:
    #1 - The DM is always right.
    #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
  47. Public transit. by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Interesting

        I agree totally.

        For me, at say 15k miles/yr, I burn 937 gallons of fuel because of the stop and go traffic. There is public transportation a few miles from home, but there's no parking there. There is also no public transportation to my work. If I walked, I would walk a few miles to the bus, ride it for an hour, and then walk a few more miles to work. In the time I'd spend walking, I'd already be at work and have quite a bit of productive time done.

        Parking depends on where you work. Parking at home is free. Parking at work is free. So my parking expenses are $0.

        The savings equation is flawed by localization.

        For a while, I carpooled, so we cut the total fuel consumption for two people in half (only one of two possible cars on the road). Now, there are no coworkers that live close to me, or even travel near my house. Carpooling could tend to be a pain. If one had to work late, that left both of us at work. But, it was tolerable.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  48. Tax Subsidies by testpoint · · Score: 3, Informative

    The personal cost of public transportation cannot be compared directly to private transportation costs. Political decisions, along with federal, state and local tax subsidies determine the cost of public transportation. For some people public transportation is free (e.g. NYC school children). For those who can't use public transportation but are taxed for it, the cost per mile is infinite.

    In 2002 federal transit subsidies were over $7.3 billion dollars. This works out to a subsidy of about 12 cents a mile for every passenger. In NYC, Washington DC, Chicago and Boston the amounts are much higher. On the other hand, the net federal subsidy to highway passenger transportation was negative as a result of gas taxes and tolls.

  49. My commute: $0 by Stele · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Working from home has its advantages.

    The only major downside is there is no "decompression" on the way home. I leave the "office" and ten seconds later I'm getting kids and bills thrown at me.

    On other hand, I built this so I could "stop off" at the bar on the "way home".

  50. I commute 5 hours a day to work! by hacker · · Score: 2, Informative

    My travel to work (it's not called "commuting", because then you're not paid for it), consists of taking Amtrak from a town 20 minutes drive from my house, 2.5 hours into Penn Station in NYC, working 5+ hours, and then back on the train 2.5 hours back home.

    I spend (out of pocket) about $16k/year on this travel alone... which I can *NOT* expense. I can't expense my WWAN card that I use on the train while I work (I'm typing this while heading back home right now on that very train), I can't expense my DSL at home for the days when I DO telecommute, and I can't even expense my cellphone, which I use for calls while in-transit.

    Driving my personal vehicle would certainly be more expensive, take longer and ratchet up my stress levels to very high levels, so I take the train... and I suck it up. I live 143 miles from my work, each way.

    If I didn't accept this job, and this travel and this distance, I'd be living out of a cardboard box in a public park. Literally.

  51. Going the opposite way by lakeland · · Score: 2, Informative

    I recently bought a motorbike and stopped using the train so can present a single data point on how much costs increase.

    I paid $110/month for a train ticket. However I'd often have to work late and then use a combination of busses and taxis (or very long walks) to get home. As a result I ended up spending around an extra $20/month even though I had a monthly train pass. Total cost then was around $1500/year.

    I now pay approx $10/week for petrol and approx $120/quarter for servicing (yes, that means servicing is costing the same as petrol). That's roughly $1000/year. There's about $200 extra in insurance too, and interest on the purchase price is also around $200/year. So in total I'm now spending about $1400/year, a saving of $1500.

    Curiously, the bike has saved me a lot less time than I anticipated. The trip takes around 50 minutes by train (including walking) and around 40 mintues by motorbike (including putting gear on/away).

    However it's greatly simplified things, I can work late or get delayed on my way out the door without incident. The train's occasional break-downs/delays don't affect me now either - my bike is much more reliable.

    Winter on the bike hasn't been the most pleasant, especially heading home in the dark when it's raining and cold and it started making me wish I was in a nice air-conditioned car. So I worked out the approximate cost of 'upgrading'.

    It was a lot - I would have to pay roughly five times as much in repayments, roughly three times as much in fuel, and I'd have to start paying for parking. I estimated the total cost at roughly $6k extra (though a far cry from the article's $20k).

    There's non financial issues to take into account too... Trains are safter than cars, which are safer than bikes. Trains allow you to read during your commute. Trains and cars keep you dry and warm. That's one data point, YMMV

  52. Dating adds more complexity by EZ+Erik · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Try dating a girl and telling her you don't have a car to come pick her up with and see how far you get. Not far. I live in downtown Denver Colorado, and don't really need my car for my day to day living, I can walk and take the light rail pretty much every where I want to go, except to pick up a cute girl who lives in suburbia.

  53. Re:Um, sure: Depreciation costs are total nonsense by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A car is a capital good, not an asset - you buy it because of what it enables, not what it will be worth in the future. The metric to use is cost to maintain and replacement cost amortized over the replacement period. For instance, if I had a $25k car that I expected to last 10 years, I'd want to save $2500/yr to replace it when it goes. If it lasts 20 years, then 1250/yr or less, which is ~100/mo.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  54. Sometimes it's just a habit.. by samuX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sometimes having a car it's just a habit, because you could live well without it or by just renting it during week ends. Of course not every place is the same and not everyone live in the same condition, there are a lot of people for who having a car is a need because there isn't a public transportation system, work is too far from home etc. etc. but there are a lot of people too who are just too damn lazy or too damn stubborn to get rid of their car while in fact they could ease a lot their life by just using public transportation. Do not forget also that for many people having a car is a status symbol.