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Square Enix Shuts Down Fan-Made Chrono Trigger Sequel

Posted by Soulskill on from the suspicious-timing dept.

KIllagouge writes "Just days before the release of Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, SquareEnix sent a Cease & Desist letter to Chrono Compendium to stop everything to do with Crimson Echoes. People might remember when they did this with Chrono Resurrection. Seems to be the growing trend; instead of listening to their fans, which would net them even more money, game developers continue to lock down old gaming IP. A copy of the C&D letter is available online." The fan project had been in development since 2004 and was 98% complete.

74 of 455 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by calmofthestorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, not at all. Your handle is indeed apt, sir.

    The argument is that a merchandise so popular fans make unofficial sequels is one that you can easily produce titles for and sell them to make money.

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
  2. They're trying to prevent people from pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So I looked at the fan-made sequel... it's a ROM hack. Not that I really have anything against such modifications, they do encourage people to pirate the game (search Google for a ROM, get the game illegally!), especially since hardware to legitimately dump the ROM images are expensive and rare enough that it's unlikely even the mod authors have them.

    Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).

    1. Re:They're trying to prevent people from pirating by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

      To nitpick: why would you link to the section on United States law?

      As CmdrTaco wrote: "Slashdot is run by Americans, after all, and the vast majority of our readership is in the U.S." Besides, the minimum copyright term across all WTO members (life plus 50 years) is still long enough that Atari 2600 games will probably stay copyrighted for the rest of your life.

    2. Re:They're trying to prevent people from pirating by geminidomino · · Score: 3, Funny

      Also, all works of fan fiction and fanart must die. Not because of IP laws, just cause they suck.

      You are George R. R. Martin, and I claim my 5 pounds.

    3. Re:They're trying to prevent people from pirating by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, question, if anyone knows the answer: I own a working cart of Chrono Trigger for the Super Famicom. Am I therefore "allowed" to download an image of the same game from the internet and use these rom patches to theoretically play this? Or is obtaining a copy from somebody else of what I already own illegal?

    4. Re:They're trying to prevent people from pirating by Drinking+Bleach · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's illegal to download it no matter what. The only legal way to have a ROM image is if you own a SNES cartridge copying device.

  3. Are these people stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Step 1: Find Copyrighted work
    Step 2: Create derivative work without appropriate agreements/contracts
    Step 3: Get sent cease and deist letter

    Come on guys, wake up. This is someone else's work, you obviously misjudged the company you are dealing with. Why not start something from scratch, so that you don't end up in a situation like this.

    1. Re:Are these people stupid? by Jahava · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Step 1: Find Copyrighted work Step 2: Create derivative work without appropriate agreements/contracts Step 3: Get sent cease and deist letter

      Come on guys, wake up. This is someone else's work, you obviously misjudged the company you are dealing with. Why not start something from scratch, so that you don't end up in a situation like this.

      This isn't some company stealing IP and creating a franchise. This isn't even a group of people attempting to destroy or dilute Square's market. CT:CE was simply an attempt by fans to continue the (arguably) deceased storyline that they loved.

      Fan bases creating not-for-profit derivative works have created, sustained, and/or resurrected numerous corporate franchises, enough so that there's plenty of precedent of intelligent companies taking note of such behavior, supporting and encouraging it (World of Warcraft, Halflife, even Snakes on a Plane). Hell, most of the reason Chrono Trigger is still even relevant is because of its sustained Internet fan base! They complete the feedback loop, providing a voice to the creative consumer in the digital marketplace. This is not about IP; it's the suppression of digital culture itself.

      Not only is Square just plain stupid to have let a franchise with clear fan interest die ... they're beating that interest out of the community themselves!

      I'll end this with a link to a relevant presentation by Lawrence Lessig that I saw posted earlier on /.. It portrays quite nicely why behavior such as that taken by Square is destructive to culture, art, and human interests. Using IP laws to break the feedback loop and force art into a strict producer-consumer model is harmful to everyone in the end.

    2. Re:Are these people stupid? by ildon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh, no one creates original derivative works for WoW (a.k.a. emulated servers) without getting a cease and desist letter. Not only that, but Blizzard recently started taking advantage of what is actually a pretty strict licensing agreement for working on UI mods, such as not allowing them to be sold or allowing them to ask for donations anywhere in-game.

      Further, there's a long detailed history of mods for Quake, Unreal, Half-life, etc. that took content, characters, or even just concepts from other works that were not part of the game they were modding being shut down permanently by the owners of said content, characters, or concepts. Those games also have detailed license agreements about what users are and are not allowed to do with mods for those games.

      There is no such modding agreement with Square Enix for Chrono Trigger.

  4. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by mark_hill97 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you can't make money off a product so popular that people want to invest 5 years of thier lives to make sequels and give it away then you are doing something seriously wrong. The production of the sequels indicates large demand, yet no supply.

  5. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by BikeHelmet · · Score: 2, Informative

    The argument could be that this is a ROM mod. Aka you need to download the game (likely illegally) to play it.

    I wonder if it'd be different if it had a separate engine, or would they send a C&D letter for that too? Hmm... they probably would.

  6. Re:Never heard of them by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Never heard of them

    I can make do without their game. Can they make do without my money?

    So far, so good.

  7. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Sabz5150 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And he's saying that argument does not have any logical/statistical/whatever evidence to back it up, thus making it an empty opinion.

    Any idea how much an original Chrono Trigger fetches? Do you know how many people bought it originally (SNES)... the second time (PSX)... and the third time (DS)?

    Then there's Chrono Cross. Care to take a shot at how many purchased that game? It made the "Best Seller" reprint list.

    Square-Enix could make a king's fortune selling a third Chrono game. They know this... we've been begging (literally) for another Chrono game. But no... S-E is too busy milking the Final Fantasy cow to really care. Who wants a turn-based RPG anymore? It's all about the flashy graphics and real-time combat.

    By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger of yours going?

    Put simply, if they released another one, we'd buy it in a heartbeat (well, maybe not so much now). We don't make fangames or listen to symphony orchestras perform the music of those games because we hate 'em...

    --
    "Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
  8. So well-timed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It always seems the "IP"-holder sends a cease and desist letter when the project is nearly done, almost like they want to cause as much pain as possible to the people trying to remake something.

    What frustrates me most is that these projects then aren't worked on to completion and then simply distributed by anonymous torrents, working for several years on something and then getting cut off at the last minute is simply a dick move.

    1. Re:So well-timed. by zwei2stein · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fishined product would be too obvious show of no "cease and desist" happening, regardless of how anonymous torrent would be.

      As far as last-minute letters go, I think that publishers do not want to cause pointless damage (most such projects never take off so it is pointless to scout for them and send letters asap - that leaves big that of pissed people who now have target to point at "look, our project was great and we had skill and determination to pull it off, but these evil guys stopped us.", same people that would give up/loose interest after few weeks.)

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    2. Re:So well-timed. by Aladrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or maybe they really did just find out about it. I'm an avid gamer and identify as a 'core gamer' and 'RPG fanatic', yet I'd never heard of this project or group. Is it really that hard to believe they hadn't heard about it either?

      Don't forget that the longer a project has existed, and the closer it gets to completion, the more noise is made about it. Fans start talking more, devs start showing it off, etc, etc.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    3. Re:So well-timed. by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What projects should they be going after? The 99% that never actually go anywhere, or the 1% that look like they're going to be finished?

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    4. Re:So well-timed. by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Conversely, why should a project wait until the last minute to get all the rights and permissions in order to produce a product, free or not, that derives from a company's trademarks and copyrights?

    5. Re:So well-timed. by Heian-794 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The timing of this does indeed make Square Enix look just about as callous as they could possibly look.

      This is only a personal anecdote -- get enough of them and maybe you can call them data -- but back when they were still Squaresoft, they weren't like this. As an intermediate-level student of Japanese in college, I translated a large amount of dialogue and other material for games of theirs that never got any release outside Japan, and put the stuff on my web site. When Square found out about it, they invited me to interview with them, paying what was to me an insane amount of money to get me to their offices and meet the staff.

      I didn't get chosen to be a translator -- and there's no shame at all in losing out to the genius that is Alexander O. Smith -- but it was a great thrill for an ordinary undergraduate like myself, and at no time did they ever issue any stern warnings about putting my translations into ROMs, or selling anything I'd created; they were interested in what my abilities could do for them, not in stamping out the creative force of their fans.

      I'm surprised -- well, maybe not anymore -- that these modders didn't get better treatment from the game maker that they so admire, and that the significant abilities they demonstrated in making this hack were, it seems, totally ignored. Instead, the Big Corporation sat on its hands for five years watching these fans work their magic, then dropped the hammer, giving them five days to unconditionally surrender to their demands. And without even the courtesy of putting an individual person in position to answer possible questions and arguments from the Compendium! No, SE just left a generic phone number, and no name, at the bottom of a legally-binding letter. They couldn't have been more insulting if they'd tried.

      I'm still a little unclear about how the North American branch of SE is involved in this -- the game was made by Squaresoft in Japan, and the only thing added to it by the North American team is the translation, none of which, obviously, is being used in a fan-made game with a totally new script. The copyrighted material that's being "borrowed" was made in Japan, where doujin material is a standard part of game/manga fandom. I know things are looking bleak for the Compendium, but I wonder if an appeal to Square Enix KK (Japan) might save the project. The way things are now, it certainly couldn't hurt.

    6. Re:So well-timed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Being tied to academia I can honestly say that most of these "programmers" you're talking about aren't worth the meat they're made of.

      It takes more than a few C classes to make a person capable of bringing a video game to completion. It takes skill, ingenuity, real problem-solving talents and a high degree of creativity to make anything more than a trivial flash game.

      And ROM hacking to the degree these people did is actually orders of magnitude more difficult than just writing a similar game from scratch. I could probably whip up a game engine of this kind in a couple of months by myself. The knowledge is out there to essentially walk a novice programmer through most of the process required to make a Windows game which behaves like these old JRPGs from scratch; from knowing nothing nothing about C or C++ to having embedded LUA/Perl/Python/Whatever scripts running in your own tile based OpenGL/DirectX/XNA/SDL game. It certainly wouldn't take 5 years.

      Hacking a ROM to the point where you are changing the game logic, the scripts, characters, message tables, sprite lists, etc. is a terrifically more involved process. It requires understanding SNES machine language, understanding the packing algorithms used by the original programmers to condense the code, understanding their string encoding methods (definitely not ASCII, the game was originally Japanese), and countless hours of toiling over a debugger to even find the areas of code you'd need to replace.

      Show a little respect for what these people have done, whippersnapper.

  9. Odd decision by agorist_apostle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can see that they'd want to make sure they are still driving the storyline in whatever direction they want it to go...on the other hand, given the costs of developing RPGs (in particular), with an obviously interested fanbase who'd buy something like this, it seems like they're missing an opportunity to get together with the people developing this and put it out on the DS or whatever. IIRC, there was a fan-based mod of Half Life which went on to be sold as a standalone game in its own right (can't remember the name -- like a western in space or something).

    1. Re:Odd decision by abigsmurf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference in that is that Valve officially released dev tools and gave people permission to develop mods.

      Most console games expressly forbid modification.

  10. But of course... by bhunachchicken · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... they only had it shut down because they are developing their own sequel, right?

    Right?

    No? Yeah, that's what I thought too.

    --
    THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
    1. Re:But of course... by Burkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, because you aren't allowed to use someone else's non-free assets without their permission.

    2. Re:But of course... by Burkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They have no intention of making another Chrono sequel.

      So what? That doesn't allow someone to take their non-free assets and do with it as they please.

      The ROM hacking community is nearly all diehard fans. Pissing them off does not sound like a good way to do business.

      And the ROM hacking community probably makes up a hugely small fraction of game buyers so I really doubt Square Enix could even care less.

      This decision will certainly make me think twice before buying a Square-Enix game new.

      I'm sure they are quaking in their boots over that.

    3. Re:But of course... by m.ducharme · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sure they are quaking in their boots over that.

      Maybe they should be, if the GP was previously a regular purchaser of Square-Enix products. If a company's core audience suddenly turns on it, that company would be in a lot of trouble. Brand is everything, and if this move by Square tarnishes their corporate brand in the eyes of those who purchase their products, they may find that protecting the Chrono Trigger properties will cost them far more than they ever anticipated.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
  11. So where can I buy a SNES copier? by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd wager that most of the people interested in this project do already own a legal copy of Chrono Trigger for either SNES or Playstation.

    But they probably do not own the equipment to copy their Super NES cartridges to the PC. Per UMG v. MP3.com, owning a lawfully made copy doesn't entitle you to download another copy elsewhere.

  12. It's a ROM hack by tepples · · Score: 5, Informative

    Replace X characters with new Y characters.

    Is it still infringement?

    Yes. It's a ROM hack, meaning that it uses most of the same computer program as the original game. Putting new characters in a non-free program doesn't make it not a non-free program.

    1. Re:It's a ROM hack by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's been reverse-engineered. Isn't that supposed to be legal?

      When reverse engineering a cartridge format was ruled legal (Sega v. Accolade), the end result didn't contain more than a tiny amount of the original work: an init routine of (IIRC) 32 bytes or less. In this case, the copied game program is several orders of magnitude bigger than that.

    2. Re:It's a ROM hack by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

      Changing up notes in a song makes it a new copyrighted work

      Citation needed. If the new work is substantially similar to the old work in ways not inherent in the work's genre, it infringes.

  13. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Sabz5150 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Great, what does that have to do with the profitability of fan made mods?

    Mother 3.

    Any idea how many copies would sell if the fan mod were sold officially in cartridge format? I'd buy it at 50 bucks and not think twice. Millions would.

    Wherever there is demand, there is money to be made. There are no exceptions.

    --
    "Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
  14. That C&A seems quite circumventable by loufoque · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They request that all work and copies be deleted.

    As far as I know, copyright law doesn't prevent me from doing what I want with the copies I own as far as I don't redistribute it.

    Also, they could just say their computers were hacked by some anonymous person that put the file on peer-to-peer websites, hence it can be distributed illegally without them officially doing so.

    All that remains is the DMCA that forced them to shut down their website because they explained how to "circumvent" copyright.
    They just have to choose a web hosting in a country that doesn't have that kind of stupid law and problem solved.

  15. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A dedicated cult fanbase does not automatically mean that it's a marketable audience. It does not take many fans to make a fan game, especially if they aren't shooting for commercial polish.

  16. There's a simple solution by wick3t · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It should have been obvious this would happen. A few years back Square shut down a 3D Chrono Trigger remake project.

    Assuming they did not rip off too much, they should just rename the game, characters, locations, redraw the character sprites so they bare no resemblance and then release like that. If they are still not happy and are feeling daring, they can later "leak" a patch which changes everything back to as it was originally intended.

    1. Re:There's a simple solution by gerglion · · Score: 3, Informative

      Assuming they did not rip off too much, they should just rename the game, characters, locations, redraw the character sprites so they bare no resemblance and then release like that. If they are still not happy and are feeling daring, they can later "leak" a patch which changes everything back to as it was originally intended.

      It was a Chrono Trigger rom hack. Removing all Square-Enix IP would be starting from scratch, thus not really a viable option.

      --
      I know you have come to kill me.
      Shoot, coward. You are only going to kill a man.
  17. It does make sense by psnyder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I began to write a rather angry email to Square Enix after reading the articles. However, halfway through, I realized where they might be coming from.

    They have a DS version of Chrono Trigger that was first released at the end of 2008, and is still fairly "new" around the world. If people download the original ROM in order to hack it, or through CT:Crimson Echoes find out that they can easily play CT for free, the DS version might lose those potential sales.

    Personally, I think the value of free advertisement and brand recognition that CT:CE would have given Square Enix would outweigh this. I also believe those people who buy the DS version do so for other reasons, such as portability. But I do see where Square Enix is coming from, and why they chose to stop the project now.

  18. Let's just trust Square Enix... by Keyper7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...after all, they did release their own 3D remake of Chrono Trigger after they shut down Chrono Ressurection.... right?

    Oh, yeah, they didn't.

    And we probably won't see a Chrono sequel either. Ever since they simply gave up on the "Chrono Break" trademark, I'm pretty much convinced that the franchise does not interest them anymore. Not enough to work on it beyond releasing ports.

    1. Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... by blahplusplus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Truth be told Chrono cross sales probaly disappointed, Chrono Cross (spiritual successor to chrono trigger) was not a real sequel and did not feature anyone from the original cast really. Truth be told Chrono Trigger is a classic game how anyone could fuck up a sequel is anyone's guess but square managed to make it too different in many ways, even though it was an alright game.

    2. Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... by Logical+Zebra · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When's the last time S-E released a decent game that wasn't a remake or port?

      There current business model seems to be "keep milking old games that sold well once upon a time."

      --
      I have a bad feeling about this...
    3. Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... by Gerafix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The DS version was just a port from the Playstation version.

    4. Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... by Mystra_x64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chrono Cross (spiritual successor to chrono trigger)

      It sucks as "spiritual successor" though.

      --
      Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on /.
    5. Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... by Yosho · · Score: 2, Informative

      Umm, Crystal Defenders came out recently. They published Persona 4 in Europe. Echoes of Time is a few months old, but that was pretty good, too. Same with Lost Winds. I suppose they got mixed reviews, but there's also Star Ocean 4 and The Last Remnant. The FF4 sequel and Dragon Quest 9 will be out in a few months. If you count games that were recently released in Japan, there's also Kuroshitsuji and Dissidia.

      Wait, was I supposed to not actually say anything?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
  19. Re:Square+enix=fail by A12m0v · · Score: 2

    seconded

    Chrono Trigger is one of my all time favorite games.
    All recent Square Enix titles are awful, never live up the the expectations.
    I want a proper Chrono Trigger sequel, I don't care about Chrono Cross.

    --
    GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  20. Re:Never heard of them by N1AK · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So basically, his question makes a lot of sense.

    No it doesn't. Practically no company tries to be everything to everyone and for good reason. When a company is looking to expand its customer base it will focus its effort on a couple customer demographics that it believes make sense (safe bet is people who haven't even heard of S-E, but are willing to boycott them over this isn't one of them).

  21. Re:Sadism by DrWho520 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, killing it after people have invested 5 years of their life at 98% completion is better PR than doing it earlier in the process?

    --
    The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
  22. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by abigsmurf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes... Square Enix should listen to their fans and release sequel with a crono x Magus love story! Heck there's plenty of relationships in the fanfics they could choose from. Frog x robo!

    Just because fans want something doesn't mean you should do it . Yes Square could easily show off a cheaply made Chrono Trigger 2 for the DS and it would sell a ton of copies. However it would cheapen the brand unless it's a stellar game and they'd lose most goodwill to it.

    Likewise giving fan made games like this a nod cheapens the brand.

    It's not easy handling cult classics. You try to cash in on them and you just end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

    Look at Lucas Art's reputation for making games in the 90's. Look at their reputation now.

  23. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Chyeld · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...

    There is a long and storied tradition of a huge fan upswell convincing a company to put for money on a project only for it to fail due to lack of actual sales when the time comes.

  24. So... by Godman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Where's the torrent?

    --
    I have this really funny quote that I like to put here. Unfortunately, there's this really annoying thing called a char
  25. Re:Unfortunate by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot is a huge stretch. I doubt you can name more than a half dozen.

    Off the top of my head without much thought:

    Doom, Quake, Quake II, Quake 3, Half-life, Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Civ 4, Dawn of War, Company of Heroes, Battlefield 1942, World of Warcraft, STALKER, Oblivion, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Unreal Tournament (all) , Rainbow 6 (all), Warcraft III, The Sims

    I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could come up with another hundred or so. While with some games the availability of mods is just a bit of icing on the cake of a good game with others like Neverwinter Nights or Oblivion the mods form a massive part of the experience.

    Adventures created by the modding community kept NWN alive for years after release, paving the way for the sequel to be the success that it was. The Elder Scrolls games have also always had a very active modding community and knowing that when Oblivion came out made all the difference. Knowing that you can customise a game to your playing style, or that it will last months opposed to days due to player made maps and modifications can really sell a game. As well as extending the life of sales past the first couple of weeks after release.

  26. Re:Sadism by jsnipy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You see this in patent lawsuits also. The supposed owner of a technology will not sue until the supposed infringemer has proven that there is a market or has revenues which can be seized through litigation.

    --
    -- if you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
  27. Re:Sadism by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, but now they don't have a choice because it looks like THIS group actually followed through.

    Kind of like "Why kill it if it's already going to die" vs "Oh shit! It got better."

    IANAL, etc...

  28. Keeping it secret? by sirroc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I understand the need for people to show off their hard work. In this case however; they could have easily kept it internal/quiet, until the mod was released.

    Once out in the open C&D letters aren't even worth the time for a lawyer to write them up.

    Will this(among many others) start a trend of keeping these mods/hacks secret to avoid C&D letters?

    Of course in a perfect world SE could have offered them a big fat check for all the new material.

  29. Re:Unfortunate by snerdy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's fourteen titles off the top of my head: Half-Life, Neverwinter Nights, Quake, Doom, Unreal, The Sims, Spore, Elder Scrolls, Civilization, Fallout 3, Bard's Tale, Lode Runner, Boulder Dash and Raid on Bungling Bay.

    Some of those titles can be broken down into additional individual games (for example, The Sims was a significantly different game from The Sims 2, especially from a modding perspective) so this list could be expanded quite a bit. Some of them make modding a necessary part of their structure (Spore) and others wouldn't have garnered any attention at all if not for their mod tools (Raid on Bungling Bay) and others have just been outright owned by the mod community (Doom). And it's worth noting that even this short list of games represents a substantial portion of the entire market for video games on personal computers. The Sims and Half-Life alone have sold more games than the rest of the top ten list put together, and that includes World of Warcraft.

    So, yes, modding is a significant factor in the success of "a lot" of great games on the PC.

  30. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Last time I checked, Final Fantasy was turn based. Although I haven't played anything since FF VII. Although I've seen VIII. What stopped me from playing was the 2 minute cut scenes for every single attack. But that's another conversation. Also Chrono Trigger, at least as I played it, wasn't strictly turned based. There was actually 2 modes. One which was turn based, and one that was more interactive, in that you couldn't just sit there for 2 minutes thinking of your next move, or the bad guys would attack you a bunch of times.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  31. So don't have an address by sam_handelman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Develop the game anonymously using an svn server in the Philippines or something, and then distribute it by BT. Avoid using real names and addresses for all concerned.

      Then, let the bastards stew. They can send C&D letters to the entire population of Western Europe, what does it get them?

      I can't believe that they spent all that effort developing this game and didn't do so in a way that would let them, at the least, try to stay undetectable.

    --
    The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
  32. Re:Patch? by mysidia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's how they release it. Square sent them a C and D anyways.

    Under US law, distributing a derived work is only permissible by license of the owner of the copyright rights.

    And square would argue distributing a patch counts as distributing a derived work.

  33. Re:Counter-Strike for Xbox by drb_chimaera · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think he means Gunman Chronicles

  34. Chronocompendium.com is a U.S. site by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    But that doesn't mean that when we are discussing a non-US topic, that US law is somehow automatically applicable!

    Nor did it mean that we were even discussing a non-US topic. WHOIS says the domain is registered to a proxy company based in Scottsdale, Arizona, USA. And Netcraft's report says the site is hosted in the United States.

  35. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Sabz5150 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...

    No hate to the fans, but Firefly is a bit of a niche story vying for space between the Treks, Wars, Battlestars and countless other sci-fi stories (I actually liked Space: Above and Beyond... I now don my fireproof asbestos lined fire suit).

    Chrono Trigger is considered to be one of the greatest video games ever made. It constantly makes it into the single digits on "$WEBSITE'S Top 100 List". You can buy CT complete, or for roughly the same money go buy an Xbox360 (but who would do that?).

    To a game enthusiast, Chrono Trigger is in a totally different league. There's very little you can compare it to.

    --
    "Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
  36. Re:Much easier solution by JSBiff · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ok, I missed something before - I didn't realize this was a modification of the original ROM for Chrono Trigger. All I can say is these game devs are sort of idiots. They should have just built their game from the ground up 'clean' (well, they could have probably used an open source game engine as the basis for it). That way, if Square-Enix decided to stomp on them, they *could* have done what I originally suggested - change a few names, dialog, and maybe a little bit of artwork, and have an essentially original game.

  37. UMG v. MP3.com and IPS limitations by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    The fact that it "uses most of the same computer program" is irrelevant, as surely that is what is installed in the user's machine, and therefore is not distributed by them?

    Because Super NES cartridge copiers (Pro Fighter, Super Magicom, Super Wild Card, etc.) are uncommon in English-speaking countries, most users will obtain "what is installed in the user's machine" by downloading it from a ROM site. This is copyright infringement, even if you already own a legit Game Pak. Universal Music Group v. MP3.com.

    The question is whether (a) their ROM hack itself includes copyrighted material

    It's likely, given that the IPS format has no way of moving data from one place to another place in a ROM. It's just a list of runs of bytes that are replaced. Besides, new poses of existing characters are probably "non-literal copies" of the existing data.

  38. Better idea by MobyDisk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why doesn't Square Enix hire the developers and license it? If it is 98% complete, and it is decent, then it seems like everybody wins.

  39. Re:Cheapens the brand? by ildon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It creates anticipation for the next title. Just look at Starcraft 2/Diablo 3/almost anything Blizzard has ever done.

  40. Re: By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger going? by Narishma · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe but the point is that they're making money from the game and it's played by a lot of people, whereas the original poster implied that it failed. A failed game doesn't get 4 expansions and two more coming.

    --
    Mada mada dane.
  41. Re-making from scratch : Why not, actually ? by DrYak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).

    I don't know well this peculiar ROM hack. But from the length of development time for the project and from the description (Same cast going into completely new adventures), I'm under the impression that they have almost completely redone a new game, creating new characters, writing new dialogues, etc...

    Their only problem seems that they slapped all these new assets on the original engine as found in the ROM - the code and the sprites of the original cast are maybe the only thing left.

    Given all the work already poured into the project, they could try to keep only the newly created assets.

    Perhaps, if the ROM hack is as big as the delay and the information on the website let us think, it won't be that much complicated to remove the latest bit that tie the game to Square Enyx franchise :
    - change the trademarked names
    - create new sprites for the main cast
    - use another engine. Preferably an open source one which is provably free of any S.E. content and can be audited. There are lots of open-source turn-based RPG engine. Given the popularity of Chrono Trigger, probably a couple of them can be configured to be close to that game's mechanics.

    This will probably add another 2 years of development. But if this time S.E.'s lawyers clearly state what exactly caused the C&D letter and to what extent modification need to be made to make the project IP-law compliant, then the past 4-5 years that went into developing this will still give a result that the fan community will be able to enjoy.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  42. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Ephemeriis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seems to be the growing trend; instead of listening to their fans, which would net them even more money, game developers continue to lock down old gaming IP

    There is no proof that listening to their fans would net them more money, especially since those fans are creating their own games and not necessarily buying the real product.

    It's almost the same argument as the filesharing canard that says that companies need to either give away their music for free or face going out of business.

    Actually, in this case, there's plenty of proof that you can stick the word "Chrono" on just about anything and it will sell like hotcakes.

    Take a look on eBay... Original copies of Chrono Trigger sell for absurd amounts.

    The game sold tons of copies on its first run... Tons more when it was ported to the Playstation... Tons more when it was ported to the DS...

    People even bought Chrono Cross, which was a horrible game, just because it was vaguely related to Chrono Trigger.

    Fans are literally begging for an official sequel. If one was available it would be purchased without hesitation. Folks would be all over it. There is, in this case, no "real product" to buy - Square-Enix won't produce it. So the fans are creating their own.

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  43. Re:Dear Square/Enix, by Xaoswolf · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Learn how the new economy works or you will fail.

    I think that they know how it works. Seeing as how they are protecting their copyright, and seeing as to how they have rereleased the games multiple times to some profit. And the company as a whole is hugely successful. Perhaps you should instead forward this letter to the people hacking the rom to advise them to learn how the economy works?

    --
    Xaotik Designs
  44. Hoax? by samtheman15 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It seems that the cease and desist letter may have been a hoax.
    http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134196.html#msg134196

  45. Re:Patch? by lena_10326 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And square would argue distributing a patch counts as distributing a derived work.

    How would that work when the patch differences are original creations? A derived work must contain some element from the original, and these patch files would not contain such. The patch files alone in a vaccuum, would be copyrighted by their respective authors, which in this case are the mod developers.

    Patch modifications are legally sold everywhere for all sorts of products. If I wrote a set of instructions for how to turn your NES console into an x86 PC, I'm not violating your copyright because my instructions constitute an original piece of work. http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Nintendo-NES-PC/

    I think the real issue here is how these mod developers went about announcing their work. They were loud and proud. Big mistake. Going by their page, they made it very confusing as to what they were distributing and who owns what and what's official and what's not. The liberal use of Square Enix trademarks was also a bad idea. Posting trailer videos on Youtube with title lines blurring ownership was an even worse idea. A boring link to a boring file share to a boring ASCII patch file named "CE.2009.patch" on a boring fan message board would have been the way to go.

    These guys got slapped with a C&D because they were conducting business like kids jumping in a puddle splattering mud all over the place. Square Enix was forced to assert their non-association with these guys as well as continue to assert their ownership. The way I see it, they had no choice.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
  46. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Miseph · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why don't we put it this way: Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout. The sequel to Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout 2. We can reasonably assume that the sequel to the sequel to Chrono Trigger would be at least as popular as Fallout 3... which was a massive release.

    You're arguing that Chrono Trigger is in a niche, like Firefly. He's arguing that it is a massively popular mainstream title. As somebody who was actually alive when CT first came out (which I do not suspect you were), I assure you that it wasn't a game only your nerdy friends had heard of. A CT sequel would sell like a Pokemon sequel or a new FF, despite your assertion it would sell like Wild Arms.

    --
    Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  47. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, I'm arguing that just because something was popular and still has some fans doesn't automaticly mean that it'll make money today.

    And P.S. chief, my younger siblings cut their teeth on Combat catridges, so save the "oh you just aren't old enough to appreciate it" crap. I've been around long enough to see this story more than once, especially in the video game arena.

    Can you make money on a revival product for a old favorite? Hell yes. Is it a sure thing? Fuck no. And stop pretending it is simply because you want it to be.

    Fans != sure money.

    Jumping into a project "just because they fans demand it" is stupid thing to do. Start a project when you have something to put into it, not just to milk it for the last dregs of money you can. And a fan mod isn't "something to put into it".

  48. Re:Nonsequitor in the summary by bonch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Dear idiot,

    Square-Enix owns the trademark. If they don't defend it, they lose it. You can't just start letting other people make sequels to your franchise.

    The story summary is biased, misinformed, and stupid, as are most of the comments.

  49. Re:Unfortunate by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But that wasn't their claim. Their claim was that "A lot of great PC games were even more successful than they otherwise might have been because they opened themselves up to the mod community".

    Let's see. I think we can treat as fact that Counterstrike and Team Fortress 2 are, in fact, generating a lot of revenue. Both of these started out as (very popular) Half-Life mods. Even if we discount the notion that Counterstrike may have driven Half-Life sales, the addition of these two mods into the greater Half-Life product family has certainly made Valve money - which I'd see as success.

    Second Life wouldn't be nearly as popular if it weren't highly moddable. Whether you go there to live as a Gorean or to use it as an e-learning platform, without scripts and custom objects you wouldn't get far.

    Neverwinter Nights was planned as a mod platform from the very beginning - it's more a GM tool than a standalone game and that implies letting people create their own rich worlds. Without modability NWN would be less successful as it wouldn't actually exist.


    I think we can at least conclude that it's possible to make a solid business case for modability.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  50. Pride by Toonol · · Score: 3, Funny

    My son was partially involved in this (I saw a pdf of the C&D right after they got it).

    The kid is making his old man proud. You're not a true programmer unless you get some letter from some lawyer before you turn 21.