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Ancient Fossil Offers Clues To Primate Evolution
langelgjm sends in an update to a story we discussed over the weekend about an extremely well-preserved fossil of an ancient primate, Darwinius masillae, that sheds light on an important area of evolution. The 47 million-year-old specimen has now been officially unveiled, and while many media outlets are stumbling over themselves with phrases like "missing link" and "holy grail," it's clearly a very impressive find. "Discovered two years ago, the exquisitely preserved specimen is not a direct ancestor of monkeys and humans, but hints at what such an ancestor might have looked like. According to researchers, 'The specimen has an unusual history: it was privately collected and sold in two parts, with only the lesser part previously known. The second part, which has just come to light, shows the skeleton to be the most complete primate known in the fossil record.' The scientific article describing the find was published yesterday in the peer-reviewed, open-access journal PLoS ONE. Google's home page is also celebrating the find with a unique image." Science blogger Brian Switek offers some criticism of the academic paper and the media swarm, saying, "I would have hoped that this fossil would receive the care and attention it deserves, but for now it looks like a cash cow for the History Channel. Indeed, this association may not have only presented overblown claims to the public, but hindered good science, as well."
... says it's a hoax. Any takers?
Actually, even if not, the circumstances are now rather dubious. Hopefully it hasn't been damaged in the course of it being sold in two parts and shipped around in private hands.
... to the second post!
I find niger bones laying on the street in Houston all the time.
Silly niggers. Always killing eachother and hoopin and hollarin.
I saw in the news today someone saying this might not be your Great*(N+1) Grandmother, but more like your Great*(N+1) Aunt.
WTF???!!!
Oh noes! People made money off it!! Science was "hindered"!
Please. Any hindrance is temporary (47 million years old and it's been a couple more years! Avast!!) and the fossil getting this much attention can only help the cause - money pouring into the area isn't a bad thing either unless you really like staying a poor researcher.
Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.
That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence is the scary bit, this primate was probably more self-aware than many of those elected officials.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
nt
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
too slow slashdot, too slow
This is more of a media event than a true major discovery. All orchestrated by the History Channel.
See this article.
Why is this 'news', it is an old report IF you look at archeology reports.
Why is everyone so behind the times?
You mean, the theory of evolution has at last been confirmed? Now what happens to the evidence-free faith in Darwin that biologists have long had? The many thousands of faith-based journal articles discussing evolution will now have a basis, by god!
Tard-boy Robert Crowther is jeering at the hyperbole at evolutionnews.org, too stupid to recognize that it isn't scientists saying such nonsense, but science-ignorant journalists (no, journalists, I didn't say they all are).
Anyway, it is a beautiful fossil, complete with fur impressions, and I'll assume for now that it's basically transitional, although I think that remains to be demonstrated.
Journalistic overkill is the least of the reasons why IDiocy exists, of course, but it does deserve some jeering from people more competent than the egregious Crowther.
Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
... says it's a hoax.
Of course it's not a hoax...it's my Ex. I just forgot where I buried her.
Consider the case of Ashkenazim Jews. Centuries of discrimination forced this ethnic Jewish group to evolve to adapt. In this case, adaption meant increasing intelligence. Albert Einstein is an Ashkenazim Jew.
By extrapolation, we can say that different races (and ethnic groups) have different levels of intelligence. For example, there are clearly differences in intelligence between Africans and, say, Japanese. The Africans turned a bounty of natural resources into abject poverty. By contrast, the Japanese turned a barren rock (that was devastated by 2 atomic bombs) into the 2nd wealthiest nation on earth.
Note that Japan is not in Europe. Note that the quality of life in Thailand (of all places) is better than the whole of Africa. There are substantial differences in intelligence between the Africans and both the Japanese and the Thai. Note that both Thailand and Japan have inhospitable geographies afflicted with things like earthquakes and the occasional tsunami.
Surely this just means there are now two missing links? One between us and this creature, and one between this discovery and dinosaurs ?
Interesting New Scientist blog: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/05/is-ida-a-pop-star-fossil-or-po.html They seem to make two main points- firstly that the whole thing is degenerating into hype, but more interestingly that there wasn't a big debate here anyway. Yes, it's a missing link, but it's one that all rational people knew must have existed somewhere. It hasn't ignited debate between creationists and evolutionists, for the reason that they don't really debate each other anymore- at least not in scientific circles.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Consider the case of Ashkenazim Jews. Centuries of discrimination forced this ethnic Jewish group to evolve to adapt. In this case, adaption meant increasing intelligence. Albert Einstein is an Ashkenazim Jew.
By extrapolation, we can say that different races (and ethnic groups) have different levels of intelligence. For example, there are clearly differences in intelligence between Africans and, say, Japanese. The Africans turned a bounty of natural resources into abject poverty. By contrast, the Japanese turned a barren rock (that was devastated by 2 atomic bombs) into the 2nd wealthiest nation on earth.
Note that Japan is not in Europe. Note that the quality of life in Thailand (of all places) is better than the whole of Africa. There are substantial differences in intelligence between the Africans and both the Japanese and the Thai. Note that both Thailand and Japan have inhospitable geographies afflicted with things like earthquakes and the occasional tsunami.
Question: Are long tails in primates based on an expressed gene? I mean, has there ever been a documented case of a human being with a long tail?
Silly yes, but I've always wanted to know. Also curious if it would help with balance (improved martial art skills)
Life is not for the lazy.
Christians know that "it was a small, tailed, probably tree-climbing, and now extinct primateâ"from a kind created on Day 6 of Creation Week."
You know, I'd hate evolution too, if it had done to me what it has done to the godtards.
"Skill shows through where genius wears thin." -Wittgenstein || Religion: uniting aviation and architecture.
So the missing link, huh?
Quoted from the article:
so, seriously? This missing link... I must be missing something
Not a chance. They'd have to reduce the Hitler coverage to do that.
rj
I'm sure this'll settle the debate.
I hardly believe anything Congress or the House says anymore. Calling them ancient fossils isn't going to help matters either.
It's weird that people think following the supposed arbitrary whims of a giant invisible daddy figure in the sky is a decent basis for morality.
http://www.google.com/ - check out today's logo.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
Just because a science says something does not equal truth. After all science once said blood letting was a good way to get healthy. Or that the chain of evolution is a tree where now science indicates it is more of a bush. Everyone has an opinion it just depends on which is more popular. So be weary of science... everyone wants the Nobel Peace Prize. As far as I am concerned, science and religion push ideas down to the blind faithful.
But its foot bone look similar to a humans so it got to be a missing link. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Is that all you can respond to?
The various articles I've read and quotations from the people involved imply "Now that we've found this fossil the creationists don't have a leg to stand on." This implies that before they discovered this fossil they believed that the creationists DID have some legitemate arguments given the known fossil record up to that point. I wonder how many other legitimate arguments there are out there that the power brokers in the scientific community are trying to suppress simply because they don't correspond to their assumptions.
She was found in 1983 by an anonymous collector. She was sold to the University of Oslo two years ago.
Tony.
-- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" -- Juvenal
The only question is whether or not it indeed had a Human father and a Cylon mother.
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php
Is it just me or does today's Google logo look more like somebody smeared shit on my google homepage and tossed in some chunks?
Oh, the logo is on the top left? Uh oh..
1) Wary, not weary.
2) Nobel Prize for X, not the Peace Prize.
With this statement you're admitting that the only thing keeping you in check is the fear of being caught and punished. Morality is an alien concept to you.
AC because I don't want scum like you knowing anything about me.
I was going to slap you down with mah pimp hand, but it looks like you done been slapped already. It is impossible to get real morality from an imaginary sky daddy. Real morality comes from examining the world: right and wrong are pretty obvious when you actually look. You stopped looking as soon as you heard that a sky daddy will spank the evildoers for all eternity. That's not morality, that's pathology.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
They seem to think that the preservation provides good evidence for the Noachic flood - http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/05/19/ida-missing-link
Scientists really do need to discover a crocoduck, but I doubt that would even cause these idiots to shut up. They have so much foot in mouth they resemble a hoop.
Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism:
biology
biochemistry
genetics
physics
astronomy
astrophysics
I'm sure there are other _genres_ of science too. Are you really saying that it doesn't matter if a leader of society believes that all the scientists working in these fields are wrong?
Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.
What exactly is Google celebrating? I mean seriously WTF?
Are you positively ABSOLUTELY sure it is 47 Million years OLD?
Really?
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1382
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
this is a hoax...jesus put these fossils here to test our faith!
Good people go to bed earlier.
It looks like something ate a small monkey and got projectile diarrhea on their website. Someone should hack in and add some flies to it.
"You can't really dust for vomit" --Nigel Tufnel
The old axiom is, "there's a missing link" so Christianity is dead, But this is just another in a long line of 'definitive proofs' that wind up proving nothing of the kind. But there are so many other reasons this doesn't matter.
A key one is, "Why must the Bible mention dinosaurs?". The oldest book in my home is a '73 VW Chilton's manual, but why should I expect *IT* to detail every step of evolution, DNA, and the singularity? The same applies to the Bible; it has it's own context. And what would the Bible say about dinosaurs, anyway? Try not to get eaten by them? Don't step in the poop? They'd been gone for millions of years by the time man was here.
Some misguided-but-well-meaning people, the young-earthers just can't put this in their heads, but I have no problem with an ape, evolving into man-like proportions, and then using the design of one of those, creating an "Adam" of the mix. The result is homonovus; a new creature. (The genes are notably different, and 2&3 are bonded, right? Apes don't have that.)
When did science, a study predicated on the simple question of "why?" become almost *only* an effort to obscure the truth about God?
Meta-evolution's idea is that cells bumped into each other until we got invertebrates, then vertebrates, then stock brokers. But the fossil record conflicts. The oldest fossil is the trilobite: a vertebrate. The "tree of life" for which Darwin was well-known is more like a "lawn of life" according to the fossil record, showing most species happening, then showing only small changes from the same general time. (generally speaking, here)
As science romps into space, it assumes "billions and billions" of inhabitable planets with people to talk to, wars to fight and tons of exploration. Plenty of spandex for everyone. But those are just TV shows. 90% of the stars have *NOTHING* but gas and particles around them, no planets. The remaining 10%'s nothing like Earth; 15g gravity, temperatures in scientific notation, storms of acid, etc.
Sure, I prefer the idea of a future "Star Trek" world with things for mankind to do, there just aren't any. It's just a nice dream. We have to consider the very real possibility that we might be all the (walking, talking, pondering) life forms in the universe. Or if there is anyone else we'll never know/see-them.
Look how Jupiter and Saturn with all their gravity- attract the larger meteors their way, defending us from them. Look at oxygen at a level where we can breathe, but fires don't start at the snap of your fingers. Gravity is an even more precise, highly-precise value. Look at the place of Earth, cleared away so we might SEE the rest of the universe. Isn't there anything you consider to be ordered in all this? The chances of all these things being random is, well, stick to Vegas.
Can anyone really say that "the debate is over" by finding yet another fossil? The Bible's been so right for so many centuries about the singularity, about the Earth "Suspended from nothing", the continental split, and the aspect ratio for sea-going vessels. These aren't metaphors or literary constructs; the meaning of these lines in the book are clear, and all translations come from the originals documents. People literally spend their lives cross-checking everything, trying to learn more. They're scientists, too. They wouldn't be doing it for a lie.
Nope: the jury's still out. You have still have to decide which to believe. And that's been the case for 2,000 years.
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
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This is what I have heard and am passing it on to you because I bet you've never heard this story. I consider it to be more truthful than either the Evolution or the Creation stories.
There are writings in ancient texts which point to civilization going back about 450,000 years. Aliens came here and mixed their DNA the neanderthol woman's to come up with man. Lots of DNA manipulation seems to be portrayed in ancient images carved in stone.
Today horific DNA experiments occur.
There was a race called the Anunaki who came to earth to mine gold for their collapsing atmosphere. Man was "created" for this purpose of mining gold. Within man is the ability to realize the full potential of the brain that the Anunaki had but they have made it difficult to achieve. Contaminents, such as mercury and flouride and aluminum impare the brain's function. Silver amalgum fillings in teeth contain mercury - at all costs get this shit out of your head ASAP and go through a detoxification program. Stop using flouride toothpaste and sue your dentist!
Reject all forms of government in favor of archon "no king". I have much more to say, but begin to research on your own about ancient secret societies - they have this knowledge - but do not pledge their secrecy oaths - theirs is to control the masses through deception using their knowledge to their own dark perverted perception of what's "good for the world" - assuming people are to be made as sheep.
Some good research about mercury, flouride and such can be found here: http://www.nwolibrary.com/
My site: http://www.joebaker.org/
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global warming settled science....
evolution obviously the only possibility...
windows the only operating system that matters....
yep the herd is always right, question nothing, ridicule everything, tell a lie often enough and it becomes DOGMA.
All Hail the New Intellectual world order!
Modded troll? I see the PC brigade is out in force today...sheesh.
A persons belief shouldn't be question in the actions that they do unless the belief is not of sound benefit and is being forced on to people who do not share the belief. This in turn has to be resolved by the vote of the majority even when the minority feel as if they are being repressed. That brings us to the point where it is up to the majority to understand the views of the minority and offer a solution that at least in the views of the minority includes them.
Let people believe what ever they want to believe, but do not oppress or repress anyone based on a belief. The only line drawing the differences in majority and the minority way of thinking is one radical idea.
Who cares if the earth isn't 6000 years old. Ok, lets say it isn't. Do you win anything? Is the world a better place now? Will religions stop? Will utopia and ever lasting fun begin? NO.
You take religion away from humanity and humanity will still fight and kill each other. The only thing you have now is killing is natural to the evolution of the spiecies.
You are trying to use hearsay to slander Kucinich, while giving the impression that you are being reasonable. You aren't. The important point for any readers to take away from this conversation is "So, as before, we basically don't know."
Everything else is unsupported innuendo designed to cast aspersions on Kucinich, which is exactly the type of slander I accused right wing loons of. Thank you for providing an example of the unfairness I mentioned.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
sorry for not being a physics freak. so they are saying that isotope decay rates differ on earth from other environments? that is pretty much huge in itself.
I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
Are you positively ABSOLUTELY sure it is 47 Million years OLD?
Being a geology fan, I like to think of it as "47 million years YOUNG"!
Way to go with a logical fallacy.
Also, you exhibit a deep lack of understanding with respect to most of Christian history.
Of course it's 47 million years old, the creationists are using this to cast doubt on the fact that it is older than 6000 years. Most likely they purchased it privately to destroy it, but they couldn't because it's DOLOMITE, baby!!
I am not a nerd, I just play one in real life. My avatar thinks I'm a total loser.
Without some timeless being which created everything, there is no absolute truth, which means that morality is a construct of society, and reflects the values of that society.
Sorry, but 1+1=2 does not require "some timeless being" to accept, and the Golden Rule is simple ethical algebra that doesn't depend on your opinions of the FSM. Space and Time may be relative, but Planck's constant and the speed of light are not. Morality may be a construct of society (note that I'm not accepting this hypothesis, merely working with it for the sake of a thought experiment), but Human society is created by a pack of social apes with a huge degree of common wiring, including mirror neurons, and inevitably reflects that fact. Pure moralistic relativism of the sort that that the religious so loudly and publicly worry about would only be possible in beings of pure thought, which we are decidedly not, and even if we were, basic game theory would militate against certain ethical formulations; cooperation is a first-rate survival trait in Darwinian terms (which may well be why we evolved mirror neurons in the first place).
Some elements of morality are purely subjective and slippery; others derive purely from our hard-wired brain circuitry, which in turn stems from millions of years of evolution; and others still derive from basic mathematical truisms.
Thus, this comic seems terribly appropriate (PhD Comics ftw): http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174
Besides primate evolution is essential to the church. They start as vicars, progress to bishops and eventually end up as primate.
How about when man was created - before or after the animals? The J thread and the E thread contradict each other right in Genesis.
In fact, tons of contradictions can be found just by following the J vs E threads in the OT - Noah is another easy one (was it 2 of each animal, or 2 of most animals and 7 of some others? J and E contradict each other here)
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/science_square_2.jpg
A transcendental god could only be represented as a power series. The big question is whether the god is converging or diverging. This will help you decide whether you can integrate the god into your life or whether integration is impossible. The derivative of a converging god is a religion since it is often advisable to pay respect to anything powerful converging on you. No worries about the diverging gods. Although, it is not possible to change the order of the summation for diverging gods since one will be out of earshot first.
ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?
College-Pages.com - Online Colleges, Degrees, and Programs
"Lematre was driven by God."
Speculation.
"The Bible says that God is the creator the heavens and the earth."
hearsay.
"That means that the universe had a creation."
speculation + hearsay = false conclusion.
Look, I don't care if people believe in god, but you shouldn't be looking for my approval anyway. Please don't try and use scientific arguments to support that which is inherently faith-based and is _not_ provable (nor disprovable). Having said that, to try and use the absence of evidence against god as evidence for god is pathetic. Why do theists suddenly (after thousands of years) require proof for their beliefs?!?
Also, a god that is outside space and time, "kicked-off" the universe at the big-bang, and then left it to its own devices, is starting to sound very different from the Christian god...
Japanese and Korean women have dominated many marathon races.
Paula Radcliffe, an European woman, has broken all marathon records.
For many years, Europeans dominated long distance races, even after some celebrated victories by the likes of Abebe Bikila and there was an Italian Olympic champion recently.
Why Kenyans and Ethiopians are dominating now? Because they have set up a well organized training (with very few resources) and train harder than anybody else (some Kenyans that ply they trade in Mexico were surprised at how unwilling local Mexican runners were to do more training, this history is repeated in many other places. Say what you may about excessive training, these Kenyan chaps were more willing to put the effort, the fact that they were winning all races in the Mexican running calendar seems to probe them right).
And even then you get some Moroccans that beat the heck out of them...
Something else you forget is that genetic variability amongst people from Africa is far greater between them than in relation to Europeans and Africans.
When it comes to sprinting, dominated by Caribbean nations and the US, funnily enough the black people in those countries are more likely to have European blood due to the systematic rape of black women by men of European descent during slavery.
Recently countries like Nigeria and, surprisingly, Saudi Arabia, are generating better sprinters. The reason is not genetic, the interest in the sport has grown and more people train harder to achieve better results.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
As I understand it, IQ tests were largely developed by whites. You'd think that if they were biased, they'd have fiddled it so they came out on top.
Someone did fiddle it and made a version that's a bitch for people unfamiliar with black urban culture to pass.
It's a scientific interpretation. Of course not. It's probably 47+-2 million years or so. In a relative sense, the fossils at Messel date from the Middle Eocene.
I don't really see your point. Even if the speculated variation in decay rates due to orbital distance from the Sun were correct (something that is very much still a wild speculation), the amount of variation expected ON the Earth would be minuscule, given that it's orbital distance doesn't vary by much, and the degree to which it varies would average out over the long term and become irrelevant to geological time scales.