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The Case For Working With Your Hands

theodp writes "At a time when the question of what a good job looks like is wide open, a book excerpt in the NY Times magazine says it's time to take a fresh look at the trades. High-school shop-class programs were dismantled in the '90s as educators prepared students to become 'knowledge workers' in a pure information economy. Was this a huge mistake? A gifted young person who chooses to become a mechanic instead of accumulating academic credentials is now viewed as eccentric, if not self-destructive, complains Matthew Crawford, who took his University of Chicago PhD and opened a motorcycle repair shop. Princeton economist Alan Blinder argues that the crucial distinction in the emerging labor market is not between those with more or less education, but between those whose services can be delivered over a wire and those who must do their work in person or on site. The latter will find their livelihoods more secure against outsourcing to distant countries. As Blinder puts it, 'You can't hammer a nail over the Internet' (never say never). Guess we all should have paid more attention to Nicholas Negroponte's landmark-in-retrospect Being Digital (ironically, no Kindle version)."

64 of 386 comments (clear)

  1. IAAC by PatrickThomson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am a chemistry graduate and I've always said that for a high science, chemistry is very blue-collar. Let's look at the facts:

    We are on our feet all day and work with our hands.
    Most people I know in the field have burns, scars, or callouses.
    We listen to Radio 1 all day.

    'course, I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it.

    --
    I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    1. Re:IAAC by Jurily · · Score: 5, Funny

      I am a chemistry graduate and I've always said that for a high science, chemistry is very blue-collar. Let's look at the facts:

      You wash your hands before going to the toilet.

    2. Re:IAAC by PatrickThomson · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hahahaha, it's so true. When I was an undergraduate we joked about that, until I walked into one of the bathrooms. A respected professor was washing his hands, then dried them and went up to the urinal next to me.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    3. Re:IAAC by psnyder · · Score: 5, Informative

      Please read the article.

      While some people may be missing the 'elephant in the room', you sir, have missed the 'point of the article'.

      Unfortunately, half the summary talked about job security giving a false impression. Job security was only a small part of the article, and in that regard, the jobs that were referenced were specialized, intellectual jobs. You will have 'grunt' workers in every profession. You can take anyone off the street and train them in a week for those positions. It could be construction work just as it could be data entry or answering phones.

      The people he references in the article are experienced craftsmen who make difficult analysis and decisions based on subtle real world problems. Yet there is a stigma attached to those who do that while working on concrete, real world problems (eg: mechanics) when there is no such stigma on those who do exactly the same thing on less tangible problems (eg: IT professionals).

      The main bulk of the article focuses on this stigma, but also covers a wide range including satisfaction by being able to see the direct effects of your labor.

    4. Re:IAAC by canadian_right · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Skilled trades are not paid peanuts, and are not easily replaced by unskilled immigrants.

      Some kids just are not cut out for a life in an office. Some of these kids are very bright, but an office job just isn't going to work as there is no way they are going to make it through an acedemic highschool program, much less four years of university. Kids that have an apptitude for skilled trades should have the option of pursuing a trade starting in highschool. You'll have happier, more productive kids, and you'll have kids that grow up to have careers they enjoy that pay pretty well.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
  2. If I had to start over... by hodet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't have any regrets with my path and have had a long happy IT career but if I had to start over I would definitely get a couple of trades. So many opportunities to start your own company and thrive if you are good at it. Lots of hard work but the possibilities are endless. Look at the big expensive houses in your area and I bet there are quite a few "company" pickups with construction company advertising on them in the driveway. Of course you have to enjoy what you do, but how many kids today would have loved this kind of work, but didn't consider it because they were discouraged to?

    1. Re:If I had to start over... by deimtee · · Score: 4, Funny

      Only if you're not self-employed.

      --
      I'm guessing that wasn't on their radar screen...
    2. Re:If I had to start over... by timeOday · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Look at the big expensive houses in your area and I bet there are quite a few "company" pickups with construction company advertising on them in the driveway.

      Aren't those the same homes in foreclosure right now? It seems like construction is more cyclical than other industries. Auto mechanics don't seem to have booms and busts like that.

    3. Re:If I had to start over... by kklein · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, you raise a critical point.

      Maybe we look down on the "grease monkey" at the Toyota dealership who comes out from the back, hands so dirty they'll never come clean, and tells us we need to spend one million dollars for what sounds like a minor problem to anyone who knows something about engines. But, take that same guy, give him some basic business classes (if he even needs them--a lot of people don't), and put his name on the sign over the garage. Now he's not a "grease monkey," he's a small business owner, and if he's good, he'll cost a little less than the dealer and the car will actually be fixed each time.

      I have never looked down on people in the trades. My dad is an insurance adjuster, which is a weird hybrid job (which is why he likes it). Out in the field, he's crawling under cars, climbing on roofs, wading through mud, and donning the hazmat suit in his trunk to look at meth houses. He gets back to the office and it's all math, policy, and law. But when I go on ride-alongs with him (I still do, sometimes, even as a bona fide grownup!), I'm always really impressed by what a good contractor knows about materials; I'm really impressed by what a good roofer knows about water damage and how to work with even a poorly-designed surface to avoid it.

      Can I build a house? No. Can I put on a roof? No. Can I fix a car? Usually not. So how can I look down on these people, just because they can't read a table of IRT output and tell me which items are misfitting?

      But even then, it's not really equal, because of what you bring up. Who can start their own business, build it up, become successful, hire others to work for them, and basically just ride around in a truck checking the work of younger up-and-comers for half the day, then go home and hang out with the grandkids for the rest of the day? It sure as hell ain't me, and it's never going to be. I will always have to work for a university. I can always get side gigs (already have had a few), but they are usually one-off jobs that pay well for the time, but there just isn't that much of a market for independent language testers. And don't even bother mentioning what happens if the economy totally crashes. We'll always need houses; reliable and valid assessments of second-language listening proficiency, not so much.

      This might be a peculiarly North American problem, though. Here in Japan, it doesn't seem that the trades are so stigmatized. The pay is better (people at the tops of companies make a lot of money, but not the crazy amounts they do in the US--cue the "but we take the risk" apologists, to which I will preemptively retort "how's that golden parachute treating ya?"). Even if you're an employee, and not a business owner, you'll still make enough to send your kids to college or a trade school. Hair stylists here study for 6 years (and you can actually get a good haircut--something that is impossible in the US).

      The trades are incredibly important, and there is a lot of personal earning potential there. Many, many times I wonder if I would have been better off learning how to do something.

  3. Home econ even... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, with an undergrad degree in CS, and a masters in EE, and just about to get an MBA... I still am a shit cook. That's right, I am a horrible cook. I know some of you out there are probably excellent cooks, but I also think there are a LOT of us who think we are really smart, but still can barely make macaroni and cheese, fish sticks, or grill some chicken properly.

    Why has my entire educational experience skipped out on something so basic. Yes, it may seem that it is basic and a common activity that we should "just know how", but really.. sometimes you just need instruction on vital things that you wouldn't otherwise grasp. (such as hygene, or balancing your bank accounts, or.. maybe social etiquite or public speaking)

    They make us great engineers, but they completely skip over the parts of how to be good, well rounded human beings.

    1. Re:Home econ even... by cyber-vandal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My mum once gave me a book called "Cooking for Blokes" as a joke but it's probably one of the best presents I've ever had. It takes you through the basics from boiling an egg upwards to making various types of cuisine such as chilli, curry, Italian and Thai. I don't know how available it is in the US but I'm sure there's a "Cooking for Dudes" or somesuch available there. Learn how - it's very therapeutic, not to mention healthier.

    2. Re:Home econ even... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I was at school, aged 15 or 16, (not particularly long ago) they did try to teach us to cook. There were two major problems, however: it was under the heading of 'food technology', and the teaching standard was absolutely terrible.

      The problem with that title was all the baggage that came with it. The course required things like design briefs and so on, because they had shoehorned cooking into the same (mandatory and poorly taught) stream as woodworking and other similar courses. The idea of rotating between cooking, woodwork and a few other modules that don't stick in my mind was a good one, but they made it almost totally useless by the way they structured the exercise. The teachers might even have been competent if they'd been left to show us the practical aspects of how to make 'x', but I remain dubious about that.

      There was also a course called PSE (personal and social education). They have since attached about 3 further letters to the name, but the concept remains the same - a small amount of time dedicated to the teaching of general life skills as you suggested. It was also an absolute joke. Basically, just imagine a syllabus written by the hippie stereotype teacher from Beavis and Butthead and a government education minister. Their hearts were in the right place, but the implementation was a complete failure - the students didn't take it seriously, the teachers didn't know what they were doing and nobody really achieved anything. If they'd thrown us some useful factual information on these life skills rather than having a room full of bored teenagers sit and listen to feel-good crap that didn't really apply to their lives, it would probably have worked a lot better.

      My point, I suppose, is that any attempt at direct, practical education that I've seen has been chewed up and spat out by the same buzzword-wielding bureaucrats who think it's a good idea to set targets for the entirety of the school-leaving population to go to university, only for many of them to waste three or four years and a huge amount of money that could have been used learning a skilled trade as the summary suggests.

  4. Very true by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A skilled trade is an excellent way to make a good living; and is a way to do what you enjoy. cars need to be repaired, plumbing fixed, houses built and repaired. Those skills are both valuable and not easily replicated if you do quality work.

    Of course, many trades require a pretty solid eduction as well. Mechanics once needed mechanical aptitude and the ability to work well with their hands; today it requires that plus an understanding of computers and advanced electronics / electrical theory.

    Unfortunately, people tend to look down as anything not requiring a college education as lesser work.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:Very true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Let them look down but I'm hauling in 50 grand a year fixing bicycles. And my buddy is grabing a good 65 grand mowning lawns. We both started our life long business when we where 13 and 15 years old.

    2. Re:Very true by contrapunctus · · Score: 2, Funny

      And the good think is that both of the jobs you describe can't be outsourced so you have some security too.

    3. Re:Very true by sleigher · · Score: 4, Interesting

      People can look down on it all they want. I am sysadmin (unix/storage) now and have been for a long time. When the .BOMB happened I had to go into construction for a while to get by. I wasn't that happy about it then but I am very happy I did it now. The skills I learned have proved very valuable. I can build/fix whatever I want for my house myself, repair plumbing, do some electrical work, all from what I learned working for a general contractor. So instead of paying a plumber/spark $65/hr, I can do the work myself. Save money and have the satisfaction of a job well done.

      --
      All points of time and space are connected.
    4. Re:Very true by Narpak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, people tend to look down as anything not requiring a college education as lesser work.

      I wonder if some of these people are the same people that are complaining that foreigners are coming over taking "American Jobs". Jobs that the educational system regards as inferior and that have a low social status. While perhaps not all jobs are equal; at least those providing maintenance of vital systems and vehicles should be provided with a serious educational alternative and not be treated like they are worth less than those with an academic degree. Being an electrician, for instance, might not be as "intellectually challenging", in the eyes of some, as taking a degree; but we need good electricians as much, or more, than your average university graduate.

    5. Re:Very true by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      today it requires that plus an understanding of computers and advanced electronics / electrical theory.

      My first thought reading your post was about BMW mechanics. They are well educated and well paid. The job requires a surprising depth of knowledge.

      If I was going to start over, I'd probably pick a trade fixing specialized industrial machines. It's knowledge that can easily be retrained in a number of fields and as more industries move to more automation, job security is not a problem. You don't see the copier repairman out of work very often.

      Mining machinery, oil platform systems, medical devices, robotics repair...any of those would offer opportunities to travel to exotic places and make a lot of money.

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    6. Re:Very true by Pax00 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I completely agree. I feel that part of the problem is with programs like no child left behind and what not that basically says that all students have the capacity to go to college. This is something that I feel is flawed near completely. Some people are just better suited to working with their hands and there is nothing wrong with that.

      These jobs are called trades for a reason. I personally feel that trade work is a great way to make a living or assist others. "Tell you what, I will fix your car if you can fix my computer" type of thing is something I have seen and been a part of many a time.

      These are things that need to be encouraged in our society not discouraged by saying the only way to make a good living is with a college degree.

    7. Re:Very true by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Want to know what the sad part about this is...

      Let's say that you started making this about 18. This means by the time somebody who gets a degree hits the workplace and makes the same amount they are about 26. And they have debts to pay off, etc. So let's say around 30 they are pulling in the money.

      If we do the math, with your 12 years you made an entire 600K! And if you were conservative and did not spend too much you could still have half of it.

      Yes it is sad people look down on trades...

      My brother went to German trade school (Industrial Mechanic). Me on the other hand I had two left hands as a tradesman. I was always dropping my tools. My strength was thinking, and oddly enough finance and financial products.

      Though due to my German upbringing was never allowed to pursue it since it was not "real".

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    8. Re:Very true by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speaking of copy repair people:

      When I attended ITT (go ahead, laugh all you want), the instructors would talk about which jobs used to be the bottom barrel jobs in their day. In their day is was the guys who repaired copier machines. Then they mentioned these days it's not like that anymore. You need to have an in depth mechanical and electrical understanding of how it works. Copying machines are a highly specialized computer with a lot of mechanical parts.

    9. Re:Very true by int69h · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't speak for all trades, but the only construction trades that are viable are electrician and plumber. Every other construction trade is dominated by illegals willing to work 6-7 days a week for 12 hours a day for peanuts. People don't place much value on correct. They would rather have fast and cheap. I'm sure some of these crews can do correct work, but I've yet to see it and I've been around the business for a while now.

    10. Re:Very true by RobertinXinyang · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You don't see the copier repairman out of work very often.

      Mining machinery, oil platform systems, medical devices, robotics repair...any of those would offer opportunities to travel to exotic places and make a lot of money.

      Wrong. I spent over ten years as a copier repairman. I then made the mistake of gong back to colege and finishing my BA. Th eresult is that I have never made as much as I made as a copier repairman and have spent over half of my time after completing college unemployed. I am now stuck in the school grind, working on my MBA in hopes that it wil help lead to a job.

      I have to say tha I liked working on copiers. I like working with my hands and I like machines. I disliked two things. The first was my knees were giving trouble (if you watch a copier thech, you will see that there is a lot of up and down). The second, and the big one, I was tired of the way I was treated. The cuustmers, the companies, and people who just know what you do all treat techs like idiots who are not capaible of doing "anything more" in their life. The subtule, and not so subtule, asumptions and associated treatment eventualy chased me out of the industury.

    11. Re:Very true by Bo'Bob'O · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of my 8 or so high school friends who I still keep in contact with who graduated between about 10 to 12 years ago: six of us went to school and got our degrees, one went into the airforce, one became a mechanic. Guess which two own their own their own home while which 6 are still puttering around still trying to figure out what they want to do or trying to finish school.

      Sure, had some of them really gone after it and known just what they wanted to do in school they could have been making more than any of us, but the point is that there seems to be this myth out there that a degree automatically == a great job with great money. While maybe 10 more years from now some of them are going to be making more money then our mechanic friend, I don't think that any of us have or will have more job security or more job satisfaction then he has.

    12. Re:Very true by smoker2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A motor vehicle technicians course runs for 5 years in total. So college is required, just not degrees. And I feel that degrees are over-rated anyway. I know some really dumb people with degrees in esoteric subjects who can hardly tie their own shoe laces. And I know some people with no degree who can turn their hand to almost anything.
      When you think about it, human beings are designed as generalists anyway. I know there aren't many physical things/processes you could present me with that I couldn't figure out pretty quickly and probably improve within a few weeks. I have no degree, I wasn't interested in proving myself with a bit of paper. Of course it's not about the paper, it's more about the social connections you make while doing it, and that's what's wrong. I'm not in your "club" so you look down on me. Well you can swivel. And making a lot of money is overrated too. Far better to be happy with yourself and have enough than to kill yourself trying to keep up with the joneses, or to buy a worthless piece of consumer junk that needs replacing every 3 years.

      I have experience and/or training in car mechanics, machine tooling, carpentry, construction, farming, both livestock and arable, IT, logistics, plumbing, household and industrial electrics, electronic repair, decorating, production (steel, concrete, plastics, electronics), warehousing, metalworking, pottery, forestry, blah blah, blah. Those were just the paying jobs, I have hobbies and interests as well. Scuba diving, canoeing, travel, flying, astronomy, reading, photography, video, music, arguing the toss on /. And I have enjoyed almost every minute of my life. I could quite happily go off into the wild somewhere and build a house, get it powered and supplied with food and water - all with my own hands. And that is priceless. The other great thing is the number of characters I have met and friends I have made throughout all of those disciplines. The stories I could tell ...
      This is my life. And I'm only half way through !

      Or I could have spent years at university then the rest of my life climbing the corporate ladder. Hmmm, tough choice.

      None of this was aimed at you Mr Chad, I'm just adding some insight. Take the losers who buy those BMWs. They spend thousands on the car, more thousands on servicing and insurance every year, and they sit in the same traffic jam as me in my 17 year old ford that costs ~300 a year to get through the test, and 100 a year in insurance. They think they're something special, but they're just burning money for appearances sake. Or the people with 50" plasmas. I don't have a tv, I have a couple of cards in the (9 year old) pc and watch it on a 19" lcd. But hey, that's up to them. Just ask yourself, what are they actually paying for ? Do they really need it, or is it just a matter of oneupmanship or even blatant consumerism ? Better things to do with my time I'm afraid.

      Just this morning on my way to work (weekend rates, gotta be done) at 4.30am I saw both Venus and either the ISS or the wreckage of Iridium 33 in the sky about 60 deg apart. It felt good to even know what those objects were, as other members of the rat race hurried about their business oblivious to the world around them. I have witnessed spectacular meteor showers, and watched total eclipses of the sun and moon. Things that money can't buy (unless you're a billionaire astronaut wannabe). Try to be rich if you want, but not being rich doesn't make you a failure in life, and chasing riches at the cost of so much else is a sad way to live.
      end

  5. Err... what? by DavidR1991 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "the latter will find their livelihoods more secure against outsourcing to distant countries."

    No, no they won't. Sure it's not as easy to push manual labor elsewhere - that doesn't mean it can't happen: Look at the engineering and textiles industries in Britain. Sure, there were lots of them, and their staff did work "in person and on site" - but that didn't stop the industry being screwed over by workhouses in distant countries that could produce the goods for cheaper. While the British equivalents may well have 'survived' to some extent, the shops and companies wanting the goods produced weren't willing to pay the cash to produce in Britain, and bought their goods elsewhere (Chinese textile mills, for example). Voila: your job is gone, whether you're manual labor or working via a wire.

    1. Re:Err... what? by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ok, lets say I'm a plumber, you have a clogged toilet. You aren't going to call some guy from China who will fly out and meet you there. Same thing with electricians, roofers, carpenters, etc. Heck, even the more "manual" parts of computer sciences (computer repair, sysadmin, help desk) won't be outsourced because someone has to plug in the cable, change the RAM, swap out HDs, etc.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Err... what? by hodet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I didn't RTFA but I think they are talking about trades. How do you outsource the electrical and plumbing of a building project in your city to India? Local hands on work needs to be done locally. You are talking about goods being manufactured in a central facility for consumption in other geographic areas.

    3. Re:Err... what? by peektwice · · Score: 2

      No, the plumbing companies create a false shortage of plumbers, lobby the government for a new type of work visa, and get low paid workers from third world countries to come do the job for 30% of what Americans will do it for.

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
    4. Re:Err... what? by Diddlbiker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But services do get replaced by goods. Goods that are produced cheaply in foreign countries. I'm not saying that plumbing goes that way, but other services do, or did.
      Shoemakers and tailors are virtually non-existent in the US - when clothes and shoes are worn out we simply replace them with something new. Heck, we replace them with something new way before that.
      Electronics: same thing. Who is spending money to have their 8 year old tv repaired when it starts to smoke. Who has an 8 year old TV?
      I can imagine that at one point it is going to be cheaper to have your dishwasher swapped out for a loaner unit while your broken copy gets sent to Bangladesh and back for repairs.

      But I agree that being a repairman or electrician is far more secure than being a programmer.

    5. Re:Err... what? by pintpusher · · Score: 3, Funny

      And who's unmounting and mounting the toilet?

      sudo umount /mnt/bathroom/toilet
      sudo modprobe -r american_standard
      sudo modprobe kohler
      sudo mount /dev/plumbing/toilet1 /mnt/bathroom/toilet

      don't forget to sync (3).

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    6. Re:Err... what? by nametaken · · Score: 2, Informative

      In IL at least you need to be state licensed to be a plumber, which requires time in apprenticeship, etc. You can't just ship in a bunch of workers from India, hand them tools and call them plumbers. God forbid you manage to get people here, sponsor them through apprenticeship, get them licensed, etc., and then they look at the union laborers and realize they can make a TON more. Then the plan goes to shit.

      By comparison they can ship someone in to do my IT work, no problem. There are no barriers to entry other than knowing what you're doing and being on-site.

    7. Re:Err... what? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Heck, even the more "manual" parts of computer sciences (computer repair, sysadmin, help desk) won't be outsourced because someone has to plug in the cable, change the RAM, swap out HDs, etc.

      Those jobs were not outsourced abroad, but look at what happened. A lot of local tech jobs were deemed not to be "core business" and got outsourced to firms specialised in such services. As a computer or software guy, suddenly you find yourself going from being an employee valued for your individual contribution while working for one firm, to working for a service company in a thoroughly commoditized role of "widget x specialist, grade 2", a role fraught with procedures and guidelines that aim to carefully bleach any individual contribution out of the work. And when you've been hammered into shape for that role, you will find that you are easily replaced with another drone just like you, which is also reflected in your pay I might add.

      It is the same in other industries. The lunchroom chef at my previous employer complained that his once fun job had turned into something bad, after his employer decided to grant the lunchroom operation to a catering firm. He too now has to work to standards and according to company procedures, taking his individual contribution out of it. And is his job more secure? His former bosses had gone through the trouble of finding *him*, their lunchroom chef, and were pleased with the results. Now, he is just employee #123 for McLargeHuge CaterCorp, easily replaced with anyone meeting the minimum requirements.

      Personally, I've found some satisfaction going freelance in IT instead of being one of the drones, but I notice that it is harder to find work for an oddball like myself. Even when a company finds it has a need for my particular skills, they have trouble getting the purchase order past Procurement because my profile doesn't really fit any of the 5 or so templates for IT people. And actually... the fact that my combination of skills isn't something offered by the regular agencies, the fact that I am an individual rather than a Grade 2 Systems Engineer, is what gives Procurement misgivings. For all their talk of what their companies are about, the truth of the matter is that companies as a whole are very much set up to hire resources rather than people. Specialised job agencies can provide those resources, but offer poor job sequrity, poor training and poor careers to their staff.

      With that said, I also know a few people working freelance as plumbers and electricians. They are susceptible to changes in demand, but if they are careful and save against such bad times, they still make a decent living. In good times they pull in a deal more then I ever did as a salaried IT guy with a degree, so they ought to be able to save enough.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  6. Experience by Joebert · · Score: 3, Funny

    Before I was in IT I gathered work experience in running a cash register, detailing luxury automobiles, auto mechanics, every aspect of building and remodeling a home from building forms for concrete to putting an attic vent on the roof, landscaping and lawn maintainence, fast food, babysitting illegal mexican painters, and odd jobs doing things I don't even know what to call.

    Now if I can just find my way to put all of this together like Steve Jobs did with his background, I'll be good to go.

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    1. Re:Experience by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now if I can just find my way to put all of this together like Steve Jobs did with his background, I'll be good to go.

      You need a brilliant patsy whose work you can take credit for.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  7. There's the question of IQ by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No one want to discuss the fact that "average intelligence" means that half the people are at and below average intelligence. The idea that everyone must graduate from high school and go on to college is the root of the problem.

    A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:There's the question of IQ by nyctopterus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Average" can refer to median, mode, or mean.

    2. Re:There's the question of IQ by Omniscient+Lurker · · Score: 2, Informative

      IQ (best thing we got to measure intelligence) is normally distributed, therefore the average is the median is the mode. 68% are within 1 standard deviation and 99% are within 3. 50% are below the mean/median/mode, 50% above. 0% exactly on the mean/median/mode.

    3. Re:There's the question of IQ by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?

      We're going to have to find a way for people to Not Work. Sooner or later nobody is going to have to. Eventually a robot will make a better burger than a person can make, et cetera. We have two possible futures ahead of us, the one where we're put into slavery and forced to work just to keep us busy, and the future where we find some new paradigm (sorry) in which it's not necessary for people to work all the time, or there are new things for them to work on.

      Just think about what happens when all the cars go electric... automotive repair will be practically restricted to body, paint, and suspension work. What are all the people who fix cars now going to do? Especially since body and paint work are becoming niche applications over time; some of the newest designs for vehicles use space-frame engineering with plastic body panels and molded colors.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:There's the question of IQ by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You think an electric drive train will never break down?

      The drive train should be restricted to CV axles, or at most a differential and a two or three-speed sequential manual. Repair at the common shop level is restricted to replacement with rebuilt units; while it is definitely possible to do that kind of labor in the common auto shop it is typically not cost-effective. Transmissions in particular are almost always serviced by dedicated transmission shops; their numbers will decrease as less-complicated transmissions become the norm. CV axle replacement when there is no transmission is essentially a suspension job.

      There are more ramifications that I haven't discussed. Cut the steel out of the auto body and you lose the need for a lot of steel workers. The formed space frame can be built and inspected by robots, and in some cases it already is. Electronic fuel injection reduced the amount of time spent tuning the fuel system; it replaced carburetor-fiddling with fuel injector-replacing, which is definitely a faster process on most vehicles. It also dramatically extended the service intervals involved, so long as the owner comes anywhere near close to the replacement schedule on their fuel filter(s).

      Automotive electronics work is already an extremely rarefied field. Electric cars will have a more complex and dangerous system and the skill set will lag behind the demand for a time. In general, however, electric service will be reduced to swapping field-replaceable modules; batteries, sensor modules, motors, controllers. The computer tells you what component is failing and what it's [not] doing, and you swap the unit. This is nearly true in many cases already, and is becoming moreso all the time; automotive self-diagnosis has come a long way since the first computer-controlled engine systems.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:There's the question of IQ by artor3 · · Score: 3, Funny

      A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?

      Live in New Jersey?

    6. Re:There's the question of IQ by Eil · · Score: 2, Informative

      We're going to have to find a way for people to Not Work. Sooner or later nobody is going to have to. Eventually a robot will make a better burger than a person can make, et cetera.

      People have been saying this since at least the industrial revolution, maybe longer. It was a load of bullshit back then. It is a load of bullshit today. If there's one trait that identifies Western culture more than any other, it's a misguided sense of entitlement. The idea that you (or your community) deserve something from society just for existing. They forget that unlike most of the world's population, they should feel privileged merely for having been born in a developed country where even the poorest of the poor still has the outside chance to succeed and experience things that the other 5/6 of the world can never even dream of. And everyone else doesn't really have to try very hard because they were born into the relative luxury of living in a house, having a car or mass transportation that can take them anywhere, not to mention having enough free time to squeeze in 28 hours of TV a week.

      I'm in Michigan and watching the situation here is entertaining. The American auto industry has, for years, been eating itself from the inside out. Now that it's on the verge of collapse, local politicians here will say, do, or promise anything to those who thought they had some kind of God-given right to do nothing but bolt fenders onto a frame until they retire at age 65 with a phat pension check.

      The bottom line is that as society and industry changes, so does the job market. Somehow, the descendants of buggy-whip makers survived to the present. Michigan families will too. As old jobs go away, there are always new ones being created. In a free, dynamic society where anyone can learn and work as they decide, there will always be something profitable to do. It's just a matter of how much effort you are willing to devote to that work. The unemployment rate in Michigan isn't so high right now because 13.4% of the population can't find work. It's because 13.4% of the population can't find work that they want to do. Whether it's because the job itself is boring or dirty, or because the pay isn't what they've become accustomed to.

      We have two possible futures ahead of us, the one where we're put into slavery and forced to work just to keep us busy, and the future where we find some new paradigm (sorry) in which it's not necessary for people to work all the time, or there are new things for them to work on.

      Actually, there are an infinite number of futures ahead of us. It would really be for the best if more people kept that in mind.

      Just think about what happens when all the cars go electric... automotive repair will be practically restricted to body, paint, and suspension work. What are all the people who fix cars now going to do? Especially since body and paint work are becoming niche applications over time; some of the newest designs for vehicles use space-frame engineering with plastic body panels and molded colors.

      I'm sorry, but I have a real problem with the suggestion that we simply throw out decades of engineering and manufacturing progress just so some subset of the population will never have to learn a new skill or two.

  8. Reaction to blue competition by xzvf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reason education shifted to producing knowledge workers over trade skills is because those jobs were disappearing in the 80's and 90's. They haven't come back and are still shrinking as a part of the economy. When we had a construction boom, much labor was imported. Our desire for cheap meat means most of the employees at meat packing plants are immigrants. Automation and cost effective foreign labor is driving most factory jobs away. Technology in autos is creating a situation where you rely on computer diagnostics to fix cars. The slack from not having trade in high school is being taken up by community colleges, and most HS graduates need strong math and verbal skills to do the remaining blue collar jobs. Now that a large number of knowledge worker jobs can and are being outsourced because it is cheaper, we must adjust education again to create the next generation of workers once we figure out what they are. The early 80's made us shift education in the 90's, the late 00's will make us shift in the late 10's. We'll have to wait to see what innovations come out of this downturn to figure out what the next job boom will be. Sorry, there are just not enough plumber, mechanic, or carpenter jobs being created that we can all move back to the 1960's.

    1. Re:Reaction to blue competition by johnlcallaway · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Correlation is not causation.

      Let me toss in a couple of anecdotal stories that might explain some of this. My wife used to work for a construction company. White, middle class boys would come into get a job and quit after the first week because it was harder than they thought it would be. One guy left at noon his first day for that very reason. My son refused to work at McDonald's because he felt it was beneath him. And I don't see any white boys standing on the corner looking for landscaping work. My step-son is unemployed, yet he refuses to do it.

      Maybe the reason those foreigners are taking those local jobs is because many Americans don't want them. Some have gotten too elitist to do a day's worth of manual labor.

      Yes .. the pay is poor. It always has been. No one ever got rich working as a landscaper, unless they got really, really good at it and could charge a premium and started their own business.

      Someone in IT who is taking home a really good salary needs to make sure they are worth it. Not just in terms of what everyone else is making, but in terms of giving more in value back to the company than what they are being paid. I remember a young fresh-out-of-college job applicant telling me she wanted to make 80K a year 'because that's how much she can make in Boston.' I said we don't pay that much in Portland, Maine. She got visibly offended that I would even think of paying her less than what 'she was worth'.

      She was wrong, I didn't even think of paying her less. I didn't hire her at all because she wasn't worth even $40K to me and I needed someone with more experience.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    2. Re:Reaction to blue competition by Nethead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And we wonder why we have an obesity problem in the US?

      After decades in system/network admin I got off my fat ass and took a job installing DirecTV. Lost about 30# that first year. Beat but HAPPY when I got home. I didn't pay anywhere near what the desk jobs did but I felt a hell of a lot better about myself.

      Get your step-son to apply at DirecTV, they're always hiring. Yeah, it's hard work but you can take it anywhere and it won't be out-sourced. There is a lot of brain work involved too, no two installs are the same. It will really be hell in the Maine winters, hauling a 28' fiberglass ladder around in the snow but it can be worth it when you save the mom with three rugrats and no TV. Or when you upgrade someone that just got a new flat-screen and had never seen it work in HD before. How many jobs are there where 99% of the time you leave the customer with a smile.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
  9. Dr. Crawford's complaint by rpillala · · Score: 4, Interesting

    People who choose to become mechanics instead of accumulating academic credentials are only viewed as eccentric in certain circles. I'm sure the satisfied customers (one hopes) at Dr. Crawford's repair shop will view the situation differently.

    If a resurgence occurs in the vo-tech schools, it ought to include some kind of component of entrepreneurship. I don't run a business myself, but I think this would include a larger helping of the academic subjects (a more math-intensive business program, with a calculus basis) than it does now or has in the past. My main issue with vo-tech programs is that they seem to prepare students to be easily supervised, but don't provide much in the way of mobility or independence.

    --
    When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
  10. Highschool by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There were two problems with HS in the late 90's I know I was there. The first problem was this weird stigma attached to anyone who was interested in the industrial technology or shop courses. They certainly were viewed in a negative light by most of the administration. The instructors of those courses were treated badly compared to the other teachers as well. The pervasive view was that that those courses were offered for people who could never complete enough credit hours in academic courses to graduate any other way. This certainly was true for some of those students, Having told my parents and guidance there pleas to avoid these subjects were falling on deaf ears, I know that there were plenty of other plenty smart people in those programs who like me could breeze through just about and HS course except maybe a subject or two that did not come entirely naturally.

    The next problem was that they scheduled shop courses so they were only offered in periods that would conflict with the upper level academic courses. You could not take honors English and drafting, for instance. There was no way to schedule electronics and AP physics ( which ironically cover much the same materials ). The entire system was built to separate students into two groups and make sure that they never met again.

    Well after being on the college preparatory side of the wall for the first two years, in possession of a 3.9+ GPA, I elected to jump the shark. I am not going to pretend there was not some adolescent neo-punk motivations as well driving me in what I was being lead to think was a radical direction. I could always read whatever literature the honers English group was working, all you had to do was visit the library. I did that, I still had friends over there so I knew what they were doing. I could not as easily afford a serviceable O-Scope or a drafting table and tools. It made far more sense to me to "run with the tough crowd." I could just as easily grab a calculus book from the school library and build on the math skills I had. Which again I did because it let me understand things in my electronics course.

    I found most of the instructors of those courses were better teachers too. They had lots of problems the other instructors did not have. The biggest being all those kids who did not want to be there that had been put there for under performing in the other programs. Still if you were interested they were largely willing spend some extra time with you and go into the subjects in greater detail or let you work on your own more advanced projects for credit. They also were tell you when you made a mistake. They had all been there forever had tenure and nobody they could impress even if they were trying except us students. It was a much more honest and much more educational environment if you were as a student willing to participate and invest a little in it.

    Despite the warnings from the establishment, shunning for the other prep students, I turned out ok. I went on to attend a good liberal arts college, where I graduated with honors. I never regraded or felt I had done myself an disservice by my decisions in high school, much the opposite.

    We as a society need to learn some egalitarianism about knowledge. Its always good to know things. Sometime its more useful to spend your time learning one thing than another but knowledge is never bad. I am not some sorta hick because I can rebuild an automobile engine, frame a house, or any other odd skills I might have picket up. I can know those things still write SQL as well as one while I grow pale sitting in an office chair.

    People are generally better at things they are interested in doing. It takes all kinds to run a society and we should value all skills.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    1. Re:Highschool by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I'm a professor at a university, and I would be proud if you were one of my students, except for one thing: you need to work on your spelling...

      Your points are articulate and well taken, esp:

      We as a society need to learn some egalitarianism about knowledge.

      This is true, and I would submit, present society is completely upside down in its priorities, as the future is NOT going to need vastly MORE information workers, financial planners, psychologists, public relations assistants, etc. The energy crisis will see to that. Over the next few decades, the people who can frame a house, esp. a solar zero-footprint house will be useful. Someone who can install solar pv cells will be useful. Someone who can install insulation will be useful. Someone who can retrofit a house with non-lead pipe will be useful. Someone who can install a slate roof will be useful. Someone who knows how to set up a high intensity permaculture food garden will be of value. Etc and so on.

      Assistant program managers for advertising sales account executives will not be useful. They perform no useful function as it is.

      Psychologists helping people find their inner child will not be useful. We will need people to find their inner adult, and that happens through hard work done well.

      Production assistants for crappy TV shows will not be useful, as there will be fewer and eventually no TV shows left that will be able to afford such luxuries. People will learn to entertain themselves and each other in a direct live and localised context.

      Dark Ox - I think you have it scoped really well. My only advice to you would be: learn how to play an instrument and sing as best you can. Then you'll never lack for entertainment. Guitar, flute, percussion, whatever - find some people (girlfriend/wife comes in handy here) who can also play or sing with you. Collect a bunch of songbooks. These become skills you can pass along, making society richer and better.

      best regards,

      --
      Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    2. Re:Highschool by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Insightful
      fuck off, troll.

      RS

      --
      Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  11. It's all about the money. by bombastinator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The trades weren't pushed out of high schools because they were "retooling" they were pushed out because there was no money to teach them. Teaching trades requires expensive equipment that must be kept up and insured against accidents. Teaching IT requires obsolete donation computers that cost nothing and have very little upkeep. If Moore's law slows the donation computers will probably dry up too and then there will be nothing at all.

    1. Re:It's all about the money. by bombastinator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Schools in the US are funded almost entirely by local property taxes so quality can vary a lot by area. It is common for parents to choose where to live according to the quality of the local schools. Rich people can send their kids to private school, and often do. The education offered the is frequently (though not always) much better. I attended a high end private school for junior high and a public school for highschool. The difference was jaw dropping. I tested completely out of most of my freshman classes and probably some of my sophomore stuff too. I had taken algebra 1 through trigonometry by the 8th grade and there was simply no way to place me for math, so they just put me in the freshman class and I did algebra all over again. I basically took no math in high school.

  12. Hooray for shop class!!!! by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Too many IT people have no clue when it comes to basics like stacking equipment, safely handling heavy loads, threading cables, or airflow. Worse, they're positively dangerous with screwdrivers, wrenches, or wire cutters. And basic mechanical skills lend awareness for programmers to the concepts of "big bulky modules that you have to leave space for", "leave enough slack in the interfaces for you to be able to put things where you need them", "leave in accessible test points where you can check your signals". And I'd vastly recommend basic electronics classes in "why clock signals lie" and "why you use _one_ voltage, _one_ data format, and synchronize to _one_ clock signal throughout your system". The lessons of "why would I do this as a bulky, parallel transfer rather than a serial transfer" are also illuminated by having to run your own wires.

    Like system security, such physical constraints are best learned early, rather than brought into the design after the fact when you've already laid out your circuits or your data flow.

  13. Well, DUH! by purduephotog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mentor HS students. Most that I deal with are so incredibly incompetent that I am truly afraid for our society- these babies will be asking their parents to carry them out into the world with no prep.

    There are kids that don't know what a screwdriver is or how to use it. Seriously. I had to hold a session on how to use a screwdriver. Gave them a drill with a bit in it and they could not figure out how to drive the screw into the wood.

    This is also the group that would intentionally break their cell phones so their parents could pay the 50$ 'insurance fee' to get a new one. Just repeatedly drop the thing over and over and over and over.

    I also watched one of them stare at the table saw blade as it was rotating- asked him what he was doing- and he said he knows he's not supposed to but he was wondering if he could tap the blade while it was spinning- if he was fast enough (look up table saw finger injuries- you'll understand why I was sickened).

    Shop class, like gym class, should be mandatory for all students. So what if all they turn out is a crummy pencil holder- they did it. Want to make shop more interesting? Show them how to do CNC on wood- that's programming and wood working all in one go.

    Right now this generation is nothing but consumption- they'll play their ipods, their little online games, and they go on to college coddled the entire way without a single original thought in their body.

    Then again, perhaps I only see the stupid ones.

    1. Re:Well, DUH! by syntheticmemory · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've mentored kids as well. One is in her late 20's, does artwork and raises oysters. The second one just graduated from SCAD. The youngest of them just finished his junior year in college, and is on the board of his Charter School. Personally, I went from engineering college to making jewelry, working as a designer and model making, and picked up CAD/CAM 10 years ago. Designing one off items for people is challenging, building those items, sourcing the materials, subcontracting specialty work, all require time and thought.

  14. Working with the hands improves problem solving by RonTheHurler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No matter what your profession, it seems that working with the hands improves anyone's problem solving skills. Boeing and NASA are now requiring R&D personnel to have experience working with the hands, no matter how strong their academic record is.

    Watch this video - http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/stuart_brown_says_play_is_more_than_fun_it_s_vital.html
    (20 minutes)

    The research linking the hand to brain development is found in the book - The Hand: How Its Use Shapes the Brain, Language, and Human Culture. By Frank R. Wilson.

    Here's another article about handiwork and education (left sidebar - Why should a kid build a catapult) http://www.catapultkits.com/

    In my work I regularly get feedback from teachers who say that nothing has inspired their kids to *want* to study math and physics more than the catapult project they did.

    Considering the daunting issues we face as a culture, with Global Warming and the problems with fossil fuels, we need more and better problem solvers in the world than ever before.

    If it was up to me, shop class would be mandatory in every high-school, and it's curriculum would be coordinated with the physics and math courses too.

  15. A mistake by Groggnrath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I for one wish every Engineer, and every Mechanical Engineering student had to spend a year as a mechanic. Once you realize how bad some things are designed from a repairability aspect, it changes your perspective on design. I've torn into many a machine, and seen bad designs first hand. Overcomplicated parts, too many parts, too many different size bolts and nuts, parts placed so close together you have to remove 10 things just to change a belt.

    The same could be said for any designer. I feel before you're able to design anything, you should be forced to use it, fix it, and understand the consequences of bad design. It would improve the quality of things that do get built.

    1. Re:A mistake by Poingggg · · Score: 2, Funny

      So true! A saying I once read and never forgot: "The task of a design engineer is to make the work of a repair engineer as hard as possible"

      --
      What person will donate an airborne act of love?
  16. The biggest problem you have by falcon5768 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is colleges think so elitist sometimes that they look down on even teaching people how to TEACH people how to do trades. My college (Montclair State University) had one of the oldest tech-ed/vocational-ed programs in the country when I joined. The president erased the ENTIRE program and created a "Fine Arts Masters" program, breaking up our shops and labs into mini rooms that each FAM student got full use of, shunting tens of thousands of dollars of wood and metal shop equipment into those labs for FINE ARTS use only, most of which we as a department had paid for ourselves though the auto shop the school closed on us 2 years before.

    And what was their justification? Well NJ that year had changed the wording of the standardized curriculum from Fine AND Vocation arts to Fine OR Vocation arts, and since Fine arts was easier to teach in high school, there was no need for vocation arts anymore. The other justification? The US is not a industrial nation anymore so there is no need to teach kids how to work that type of equipment or in those trades. This was 2002 BTW.

    Oh and that curriculum change? The next year NJ changed it back, making only one out of ALL of its state schools, 3 of which had programs that dated back around of even before WWI capable of churning out teachers who can actually teach Tech Ed. Now NJ has to back door most of its vocation teachers and even then, nearly half the jobs are being left unfilled with more retiring every day.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    1. Re:The biggest problem you have by aethera · · Score: 2, Informative

      I find your post hilariously ironic. As a so-called "gifted" student, like an earlier poster I was prevented from taking any shop classes in high-school. But, I could sign up for theatre classes, and in those (since I had no desire to act) I learned how to use all the basic shop tools, as well as basic electrical work, lighting, and sound.

      I went on to get a BFA in theatre design, the only college curriculum that combined architecture, design, and engineering with actually producing the stuff you imagined. I learned to weld, to paint, make perfect dovetail joints, repair most tools, even how to sew....all as part of my coursework! I now work for Habitat for Humanity, where the best part of my job is teaching new volunteers how to use tools and build houses.

      I've always said I would make a great shop teacher, but as far as I've ever heard, those jobs are long gone, plus no one can tell me where to even begin to get the training I would need.

  17. Triumph motorcycles and the bigger issues by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article goes on at length to (rightfully) decry the chasm between work and the management of it, how actual tasks that are useful tend to get divorced from policy, procedures, and presence on the management radar. At its root, this attitude is what makes it possible to outsource to other continents. There's no longer a feeling that management and directing vision need to coexist in the same space in order to stay aligned and keep working well and synergistically. (And that may be the only time in the last few years I'd consider it appropriate to use that management-jargon-co-opted word.)

    Since the author is a motorcycle mechanic, I thought I'd toss this out. When I was a young man, bike enthusiasts were decrying the fall of Triumph. That once-great motorcycle company was dying. They sold few bikes. They had run through many unsuccessful models that weren't very good bikes when they were working well and didn't work well very often because they were poorly assembled. It was enough to make an old gearhead shed a tear.

    And then a story came out, perhaps apocryphal, that pinpointed the precise moment when Triumph stopped their forward progress and began their long fall. Some time in the early 1960s, so the story went, the upper management had gotten so successful that they started looking like upper management. They were driven to work. They dressed in expensive suits. They came to view themselves as businessmen. Or, rather, as typically happens with businesses as they become big, the guys who were bike lovers gradually got replaced in the executive suites by guys who were supposed to be good at the business of business, guys for whom the actual product was unimportant.

    Finally, one day, there was a big, routine board meeting and one of the last of the old guard, who had ridden his bike that day, showed up to the meeting room in full leathers. He was informed that such was not appropriate. A rule that "proper dress," specifically meaning "no leathers," was required at all business meetings. The break between management and the iron on the road was now complete. Management had been outsourced to people who were distant (mentally, emotionally, and philosophically, if not physically) from the actual work.

    At that point, Triumph was toast. It took years for the motorcycle brand to die. I remember one of the (perhaps the very) last bike they produced, a brilliant triple in sporting trim. I remember thinking it was a death rattle, the last gasp of a company that didn't know what in the bloody hell to do to stay alive and had, in desperation, actually let the engineers and bike lovers have a crack at producing something. It was far too little, far too late.

    What I'm saying is the same as, in part, the article. Not only is working with your hands a good thing, when any company is run by people who are *incapable* of hands-on work or, at minimum, hands-on appreciation of that work - the company is doomed.

  18. H-1B visa by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Funny

    How do you outsource the electrical and plumbing of a building project in your city to India?

    HTH.

     

    --
    Deleted
  19. Re:Looking down at the 'skilled trades' by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Informative

    I can think all day about how the electrical in my house works, and understand the theory behind it. But can I wire my house so that everything works, and I don't burn it down? Maybe, but it is in my interest to have an electrician look at it to make sure. Not necessarily an electrical engineer.

    My father is an electrical engineer, and I am (among other things) a licensed electrician. The stories my mother has about him trying to do his own electrical work are hilarious ("how hard can it be? It's a simple AC circuit!")

    --
    If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  20. I *chose* carpentry over IT. by mowa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I left my IT job of running a small non-profit doing video production, creating web apps , pretty much whatever we could come up with to assist small manufacturers compete in the govt. procurement supply chains.

    It was a *great* IT job, but I chose to leave it to rehab/restore/remodel older homes and pursue carpentry.

    Honestly, it gives me a satisfaction I just wasn't getting in IT. My families reaction was, are you fsking daft??

    I redid a first floor full bath for some friends and since then, every morning when they wake up they step out of their second story bedroom, pass by the master bath right across the hall and go downstairs to the bathroom I made to do their morning routine and get ready for their day.

    *Nothing* I have done in IT *ever*, has given anyone that much enjoyment.

  21. Duh. by jnork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "High-school shop-class programs were dismantled in the '90s as educators prepared students to become 'knowledge workers' in a pure information economy. Was this a huge mistake?"

    Machines need maintenance. Buildings need building and repair. Pipes need plumbing. Trucks need driving. Plants need growing. Packages need delivering. Photos need taking and film needs developing.

    Hell, somebody needs to make a mug so I can put tea into it. Oh right, somebody needs to make the tea, too. And build and maintain the infrastructure that lets me get water out of a tap, start a fire under a pot (that I bought at a store that somebody built and somebody else stocks and inventories and keeps records for...), take the tea bag wrapper and put it into a landfill (assuming I bought tea bags this time)...

    Sure, theoretically we can automate all that. But who is going to build the machines to supply the automation in the first place? Somebody has to sling a wrench.

    What happens when 100% of our children are knowledge workers? Well, then we get 100% unemployment, because nobody is building the bloody computers for them to work on. Oh, they'll have to haul their own garbage, too...

    You could say that I think this is short-sighted and ignorant. How about bloody stupid? No, but you're getting close.

    See me? I'm an embedded software engineer. Firmware programmer, if you prefer. See, I like to work right down to the bare metal, and that means that I work with the hardware, too. I know how to solder and use multimeter and a 'scope. And wire-wrap, which is passe these days.

    And what did I just finish doing 15 minutes ago? I fixed the screen door so it would close properly so the dog couldn't just push it open and get out. Guess what body parts I used for that? No, go on, you'll never guess.

    I think EVERYBODY should have some shop time. Elective, my ass, at least a minimum should be mandatory. And what we used to euphemistically call "home economics" should be as well, everybody should get at least the basics of cooking and sewing and so on.

    I don't particularly enjoy sewing, but I can do it. By hand or by machine. And I'm no chef but I can make a few simple dishes and follow a recipe. Want my recipe for Bachelor Chow?

    What are we going to do, give all the non-knowledge jobs to illegal immigrants?

    Even if we do, I want to revisit my earlier remark about the unemployment rate. So for a few years there's a big surge in, hmm, let's say, yoga. "Yoga's the big thing, that's where all the money is! We can't see an end to it!" Advisors start directing everybody towards being a yoga instructor. A few years later we get a graduate class of nothing but yoga instructors, and guess what? THERE'S NOBODY TO INSTRUCT. Why? First, because the fad passed and everybody is doing Tai Chi. Second, because EVERYBODY IS A YOGA INSTRUCTOR AND DOESN'T NEED TO BE INSTRUCTED.

    Sheesh. It's like our entire society is suffering from clinical depression or something. Think, people! We need all kinds of thinkers and workers, not just one kind of person. OK, today we need a few extra specialists, but things are constantly changing.

    And not everybody can be good at the same thing. One problem you get when you turn everybody into a specialist at one thing is that you get a lot of really mediocre specialists. The ones with the native proclivity will take the best jobs and the rest will end up unsatisfied or unemployed.

    Don't plan for a specific future. When it doesn't happen, you're going to be stuck high and dry. Find out where your skills are, hone them as best you can, and find a place to use them to their best advantage. Not just your top skill or your favorite, but all you can find. Narrow specialties can be very lucrative, but if there's no call for yours, it's good to have a fall-back. And most people prefer a life with some variety.

    And I don't mean flipping burgers.

    How can such smart people be so incredibly stupid? Open up the damned shops again. Get the kids working with their

    --
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.