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Dot-Communism Is Already Here

thanosk sends in a story at Wired Magazine about how online culture is, in many ways, trending toward communal behavior. Sharing and collaboration have become staples of active participation on the Internet, while not necessarily incorporating a particular ideology or involving a government. "Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa. In practice, though, most polities socialize some resources and individualize others. Most free-market economies have socialized education, and even extremely socialized societies allow some private property. Rather than viewing technological socialism as one side of a zero-sum trade-off between free-market individualism and centralized authority, it can be seen as a cultural OS that elevates both the individual and the group at once. The largely unarticulated but intuitively understood goal of communitarian technology is this: to maximize both individual autonomy and the power of people working together. Thus, digital socialism can be viewed as a third way that renders irrelevant the old debates."

117 of 554 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing new, but encouraging by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa.

    I'm not quite sure where the author got that idea. The US has always been based on the idea that the individual is paramount. In our popular culture, we have always derived our strength from the individual and his willingness to help others.

    A perfect example of this is our super-heros. Developed during a time of great uncertainty and world wars, our culture developed personas who were both empowered and selfless. Whether it be an accident of birth (Superman), a millionare who puts his own life and fortune on the line (Batman), or a scientist dealt a bum hand by fate (Hulk), they all are shown to make the most of their unique abilities in service to others.

    Such thought processes have traditionally permeated our culture to the point where every child strives to be that hero. To save the world as it were. The results can be seen in everything from local government (simply amazing small towns built out of nothing) to the larger scale of US resolve during WWII and the later Space Race. Thus the communal aspects of working together have always been a strength for us.

    The idea of a Big Brother culture is a relatively new one imported from more socialist countries. As if the population needs protection from itself. And for all intents and purposes, it's been causing more harm than good. The government has frustrated more airline passengers than they've prevented terrorists, all while trying to convince the populace to roll over when someone takes over a plane. (THAT is never going to happen again.) They've seized money from countless honest businesses and individuals in an attempt to stop drug trafficing. (Which has been more or less ineffective.) And they've generally created a situation where the populace is either looking for their next handout (excuse me, "bailout") or their trying to cheat their way out of paying their taxes.

    Our system hasn't completely fallen yet, but I think the communal internet is a great wake up call for the system. It allows individuals to aspire, self-organize, and express their individuality in a helpful way. So in that respect, I agree with the article. I just don't think it's anything new or anything to do with Communism as a system. ;-)

    1. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by MyLongNickName · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ummm....how did the Hulk service others, exactly?

      By defeating the Iron Sheik.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    2. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Our system hasn't completely fallen yet, but I think the communal internet is a great wake up call for the system. It allows individuals to aspire, self-organize, and express their individuality in a helpful way. So in that respect, I agree with the article. I just don't think it's anything new or anything to do with Communism as a system. ;-)

      Oh, I could play the devil's advocate and think of a stupid roundabout way of showing that Communism is more about empowering the individual to pursue their dreams than worry about possessions. Such flawed and impassioned exercises began to bore me long ago though--so I'll spare you the inanity.

      I thought that the majority of Americans have come to terms that absolute Communism and absolute Capitalism are both bad systems?

      I mean, even the most wing-nut conservatives believe in some sort of tax or anti-trust laws and even the most bleeding hearted liberals believe that we should be left a sizable share of our income to our own responsibility and desires.

      So why do we move back to a stupid argument between the absolutes of Capitalism vs Communism when the correct solution is somewhere to be found in the middle? And different peoples enjoy different solutions. It so turns out that corruptibility of humans by nature dictates we should be closer to capitalism that communism. If the author of this article thinks the internet has far too much communal activity, so be it. But make rational arguments and don't play on the red scare ... we're adults now, we're past that.

      I tire of the return to young idealist zealotry and yawn at the attempt to evoke fear from me of one side over the other. The absolutes are both dangerous and stupid.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    3. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Andr+T. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Such thought processes have traditionally permeated our culture to the point where every child strives to be that hero. To save the world as it were. The results can be seen in everything from local government (simply amazing small towns built out of nothing) to the larger scale of US resolve during WWII and the later Space Race. Thus the communal aspects of working together have always been a strength for us.

      As a Brazilian bombarded everyday by USA-imported-mass-enternainment-industry, I've noticed that this is true indeed. I find it very interesting that it seems important to find a 'hero' in almost every situation - for instance, in 'the most amazing videos', there was a car with something stuck in the accelerator and the car kept moving in circles over and over. Then, a policeman came, entered the car by the window, and stopped it. The thing is: when you hear what the narrator says, it seems that the policeman saved a thousand people.

      I've recently read 'The Quiet American', which further investigates this. As I read it, it seems that Graham Greene thought that Americans can't imagine how other people could want something different from what they have, and how could they think different from what they, Americans, think. I don't know if it's true, but it's a very interesting POV.

      --

      Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.

    4. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with you for the most part. I'm a little concerned with the idea that not attacking hijackers by default was a bad idea.

      Until recently, hijackers did not hijack in order to blow up buildings and commit suicide. Hijackers in the 1980s were very much looking to make a point. You *could* die or be wounded in a hijacking, but for the most part, you would live through it. They might be willing to die for their cause, but it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

      Of course, after 9/11, that strategy has changed. And perhaps the government should have known to change their story. But lets be clear here. When the people fought back over Pennsylvania, they still died. I would have been fighting with them, because I know I'd be dead either way and I wouldn't want to let them get away with that, but it didn't help them.

      What that story shows is that it's never been a case of us simply being sheep and letting them blow up our buildings and take us hostage. These people are armed and trained how to take over aircraft and to hold hostages. They have little or no fear of death, and their family members are back in the Middle East instead of sitting right next to them on the plane.

      On the other hand, I am not trained to take on armed combatants in an enclosed cabin. I'm willing to do it with little regard to my safety, but when it means that others get hurt because of my lack of training and experience, I would think twice. And you should think twice.

      Chances are, if this happens again, there's really going to be no choice but to attack. The terrorists have upped the ante and now the equation favors fighting back. Indeed, you may well be racing against time to either dodge a suicide attack or a Sidewinder up your plane's intakes. But that does not mean that the day has been saved, it just means that the stakes are higher.

    5. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought that the majority of Americans have come to terms that absolute Communism and absolute Capitalism are both bad systems?

      Who said anything about Capitalism? I was referring to the general culture of the US. The culture of individual empowerment that makes the empowerment of the greater whole possible. Of which "Capitalism" as it has been named is merely a side effect of how such a culture operates economically, not a system in of itself.

      I'm sorry you have wasted your time on such a long and pointless rant.

    6. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by eldavojohn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who said anything about Capitalism?

      Well, the article you and I are discussing mentions it several times, including:

      In fact, the work-reward ratio is so out of kilter from a free-market perspective-the workers do immense amounts of high-market-value work without being paid-that these collaborative efforts make no sense within capitalism.

      Which seems to more or less directly tie it to the culture (ours) you discuss. I would contend that if your post is not to be taken in the context of concern for economic measures of dot-com transactions then it is off-topic. I also find it amusing that you claim superheros are possessed by the United States and do not enjoy popularity in other countries. A US invention, perhaps, but embraced worldwide.

      Of which "Capitalism" as it has been named is merely a side effect of how such a culture operates economically, not a system in of itself.

      I do not think I present a false dichotomy when I assume that an argument (and I'm referring to the argument of the article we are discussing) against "dot-Communism" is an argument for "dot-Capitalism" but I am open to your alternative dimensions to this--and yes, I'm talking economics here--aspect of online interaction.

      I'm sorry you have wasted your time on such a long and pointless rant.

      The pleasure is all mine, apparently.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    7. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by PrescriptionWarning · · Score: 2, Informative

      Americans can't imagine how other people could want something different from what they have, and how could they think different from what they, Americans, think. I don't know if it's true, but it's a very interesting POV.

      sounds more like a Christian view rather than just an American view, but I guess since a large portion of our population is Christian it may still hold up. Either that or its just easier not to try to think about other's POV. Take your pick, I'm too lazy to pick for you :P

    8. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by chaim79 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Who wizzed in your cereal when you were a kid?

      Superman was never "ends justify means" superhero, he was always trying to save the innocent and would take the hard road if it meant more lives saved (hard as in much harder to do, harder on him, etc.).

      Batman was a millionaire by birth and by being an intelligent businessman... he didn't "steal food from the mouths of poor and oppressed", he made his money and used it. I will admit that he was very much 'outside the law' and a vigilante, more concerned with taking out the bad guy vs saving the innocent.

      It really seems like you have a twisted view of the superhero genera, and the ideology of the USA (though I will admit that the ideology of recent times is pitiful in comparison to the ideology that this country was founded on).

      --
      DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
      AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
      Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
    9. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ummm....how did the Hulk service others, exactly?

      Without getting into specifics, let's just say that the Hulk's anatomy was affected everywhere, and there is a large subset of the Marvel Universe that has trouble sitting down to this day.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    10. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by nostriluu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That all sounds very rah rah, but please do contrast your caped and cloaked "superheroes" with philosophers, who try to lay out the biggest problems people face, and the most significant of whom come from outside the US. (I'm not going to try to explain manga here).

      US dominance in technology and business comes from the ashes of WW II, where the rest of the world was in ruins, particularly Russia after losing millions to Germany.

      This is not an anti US tirade, just trying to bring some balance...

    11. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by postbigbang · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you change the semantics just slightly, you can get rid of the boogeyman of 'communism' and instead, understand what's really going on: we behave like tribes. We are tribes, we will always be tribes, herds, or whatever you want to call them. This kind of behavior underlies most of what we do, mostly on a subconscious level. We're social beings, and that's how we've evolved when we're not killing each other.

      Government is also somewhat natural; there are alphas, betas, just as there are in bird, dog, and other animal behaviors. None of this is new. The word 'communal' is just distracting.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    12. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by afabbro · · Score: 2

      ...and even the most bleeding hearted liberals believe that we should be left a sizable share of our income to our own responsibility and desires.

      Hey, that sounds good - can we go back to that?

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    13. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by nightsweat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Superheroes were nothing new when they were introduced. They were the pop-ification of polytheistic religions. Hercules and Superman, Batman and Achilles - all the same thing.
      They're certainly not uniquely American. American superheroes dominate

      --

      the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
    14. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by canajin56 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Superman was never "ends justify means" superhero, he was always trying to save the innocent and would take the hard road if it meant more lives saved (hard as in much harder to do, harder on him, etc.).

      In the early Superman issues, the major bad guys were bankers and lobbyists who wanted to get the USA involved in WW2. Superman had no qualms threatening to electrocute lobbyists and drop them from buildings if they didn't spill the beans on who they were working for so Superman could go crack their skulls. At least he was educational about it "Don't worry, we can touch this powerline safely, there's no path for the current to flow through if you aren't touching the ground. Or another wire. Oops, that was close, almost touched two there!"

      Batman was a millionaire by birth and by being an intelligent businessman... he didn't "steal food from the mouths of poor and oppressed", he made his money and used it. I will admit that he was very much 'outside the law' and a vigilante, more concerned with taking out the bad guy vs saving the innocent.

      With all the miracle cures Batman comes up with for villain-made diseases and chemicals, you'd think he could cure normal ones too, but no. That's reading between the lines of course. But Reed Richards, Mr. Fantastic, he really does invent these things! Lots of his riches come not from selling inventions, but by accepting money to bury them! He cured the common cold but takes monthly payments from big pharma to keep it a secret. I think he invented cold fusion, and takes big payments to keep it in the basement. Modern Marvel had a good narrative reason for all this dickishness. Basically, they thought it was a deficiency that superhero inventors never invented anything useful for anything besides crime fighting. They figured Mr. Fantastic would invent all kinds of useful shit, being the smartest guy on Earth and all. So rather than ignore it, they decided that yes, he DOES cure diseases in his spare time. The trouble is, if he cures all disease, solves world hunger, solves pollution issues thanks to miniaturized cold fusion power, then he moves the entire world very rapidly towards a Utopian Star Trek setting. How can Marvel make hamfisted analogies to current geopolitical issues by having George W. Bush waterboard Captain America, and herd all superheros into concentration camps? They can't! Thus, out of necessity, Reed Richards must take a "Prime Directive" approach to the world, and be very very careful to change nothing outside the scope of stopping the assorted doomsday plots that directly involve him. "THE STATUS MUST BE QUO", etc.

      Can you tell somebody got me a "philosophy of comic books" book last Christmas? lol

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    15. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Aceticon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's the good old navel-gazing which is the default in any culture and common amongst those that never lived in another culture: all that they know about, all that they care about and all their references are what they see and what happens in their cultural group (often a nation, but not always).

      The US shows more of this than other countries because:
      a) It's big, reasonably wealthy and culturally very uniform (the cultural differences between most people in California and most people in Virginia are a lot fewer than those between most people in Norway and most people in Turkey - an equivalent distance)
      b) It produces and exports most of modern media, thus while other people are frequently exposed to US culture as encoded in movies and TV series, most Americans are rarely exposed to non-US culture.
      c) The US political system strongly pushes blind, uncritical patriotism as a form of mass manipulation. Typically this boils down to "we're great because we live in a great nation" with the implicit "anybody that criticizes our nation criticizes it's greatness and thus criticizes us all". The side effect of this is to make Americans (and similarly, those people raised in nations where patriotism is overemphasized) exceptionally blind to their own social and cultural issues and closed to accept other people's social and cultural views.

      If you don't believe me, just ask any born and bred US citizen which has lived a year or more in any other country (exception being made for those that live in a-little-piece-of-the-US-in-another-land environments, such as military bases).

    16. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've recently read 'The Quiet American' [wikipedia.org], which further investigates this. As I read it, it seems that Graham Greene thought that Americans can't imagine how other people could want something different from what they have, and how could they think different from what they, Americans, think. I don't know if it's true, but it's a very interesting POV.

      Don't believe everything you read. I'll agree that this probably pegs plenty of Americans correctly enough, but I think there is still a large contingent of us which really just don't care what other people think or want. This probably comes off as either arrogance or ignorance or both, but I doubt that there are a lot of Americans running around bemoaning that others aren't like us. Unfortunately, the type of people who do make a big deal out of it are usually the narcissistic types who are going to be loudest about it.

      Myself for example, I realize that people in other countries think and act differently, and then I quit navel gazing and go about living my own life. Sure, I run across it every now and again, but it's not something which enters my consciousness all that much, nor does it bother me. Sure, I find it odd, but I suspect that they have just been shaped to think the way they do by the experiences they have had in life, just like me. And that is, perhaps, one thing which maybe should come from your reading, the pot is just as black as the kettle. Sure, I don't really understand how you think, or why you think that way. I can't, I haven't had your life experiences. But, I doubt you truly understand how I think or why I think the way I do; you haven't had my life experiences. The best we can do is try to explain our point of view to each other, using something as imperfect as language, and accept that each other is not insane, just different.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    17. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with you for the most part. I'm a little concerned with the idea that not attacking hijackers by default was a bad idea.

      Until recently, hijackers did not hijack in order to blow up buildings and commit suicide. Hijackers in the 1980s were very much looking to make a point. You *could* die or be wounded in a hijacking, but for the most part, you would live through it. They might be willing to die for their cause, but it wasn't a foregone conclusion.


      This seems to be a shirking of the responsibilities of a free citizen. It's important to keep in mind that The Authorities cannot possibly protect everyone, it's just a flat physical impossibility. There will never be a cop everywhere at once. Even with a surveillance state the best that will happen is that there will be evidence of a crime after the fact. And this seems to be something we have lost in our country, the understanding that the police are a reactionary force, they do not prevent crime, the do not stop crime, unless by serendipity. The police exist to investigate crimes after they have happened, collect evidence and hand it off to the State to seek redress for the aggrieved.

      The only people whom you can guarantee will be at the scene of a crime, when it happens, are the criminal, and the victim (theft by stealth not withstanding). This means that, as a free citizen, the victim is the first responder. It is up to the citizen to protect himself and his society. Certainly, there is a value judgment to be made, if the criminal has the drop on you, give up your wallet; dieing doesn't help anyone. On the other hand, if you have a reasonable chance of stopping the crime in progress, or it's a crime in which you or others are going to die anyway, you should be fighting. Moreover, we have fallen into the bystander mentality, we love to stand around in groups and watch crimes happen, but not get involved; because, we might get hurt. That needs to stop, the only people that is empowering are the criminals.

      Should people have fought on planes before? Absolutely, I don't care how well trained a couple of hijackers are, against several hundred people, from all sides, they will lose. Flight 93 was doomed, in part, by the "be a victim" mentality. The people started fighting far too late, the hijackers were already in control of the aircraft. Were the scenario to go more along the lines of the hijackers starting trouble, and the people on the plane immediately giving them a beat-down (or maybe even shooting them) the plane would be far less likely to crash as the pilots will always be in control of the aircraft.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    18. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by genner · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you don't like it, real Strawberry Shortcake.

      That sugar laddend tramp is responsible for creating half the fat chicks in the world.

    19. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Patch86 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you don't understand the GP.

      In the '80s, hijackers didn't blow up planes and commit mass murder. It just wasn't what the game was all about. Some did it for ransom money (always popular). Some did it to make a political point, the same as waving a banner at a protest rally (only more so). The usual way these things went is that the plane would land somewhere, all the hostages would be safely released, and the hijackers would be rounded up by the police/CIA some time later.

      Encouraging people to fight back in this game is stupid. All you do is make people risk their lives needlessly. If they don't fight, everyone survives and the authorities can catch the criminals on safer ground. If you do fight, you risk having a gun fired in a crowded, pressurised cylinder 20,000 feet up.

      The game has obviously changed when you're dealing with terrorists for whom the end goal is to kill everyone. Suddenly, we're not talking about "we'll catch up with them later once everyone is safe", we're talking "how to ensure the fewest people die". Fighting for control of the aircraft is the only sensible thing the passengers can do.

      Pretending that nothing has changed in the last 30 years is just being thick-skulled. The rules were different back then because the game was different back then.

    20. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Rycross · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I think therefor I am," was the first step in a long, convoluted attempt by Descartes to prove the existence of God.

    21. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Temujin_12 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Americans can't imagine how other people could want something different from what they have, and how could they think different from what they, Americans, think. I don't know if it's true, but it's a very interesting POV.

      sounds more like a Christian view rather than just an American view, but I guess since a large portion of our population is Christian it may still hold up.

      Wrong and wrong.

      I would wager that you could replace the noun "Christian" with almost any other noun describing a large population of people and you'd get a very similar percentage of people who resist seeing other's POV. What you may have observed in people claiming to be Christian is likely attributed to human nature rather than being Christian (or whatever noun you wish to lob an Ad Hominem attack on).

      --
      Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
    22. Re:Nothing new, but encouraging by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Encouraging people to fight back in this game is stupid. All you do is make people risk their lives needlessly. If they don't fight, everyone survives and the authorities can catch the criminals on safer ground. If you do fight, you risk having a gun fired in a crowded, pressurised cylinder 20,000 feet up.

      I have to disagree with you here, the reason to fight back at this point was to make the risk/reward assumption of hijacking not worth the effort. When the people on the plane don't fight they are putting their lives and well being in the hands of people who have already shown a disregard for those people. And "everyone survives" is not true, granted the majority tend to, but this didn't stop the hijackers from killing people. Additionally, this demonstrates to potential hijackers that this is a viable method of extortion and encourages more hijackings.

      By comparision, with the current "fight back" mentality, hijacking is much harder and not as useful as a tool for extortion. We have had plenty of stories of people doing stupid stuff on planes not accomplishing much because the passengers weren't going to be victims anymore.

      As for having guns fired in a crowded pressurized cylinder at 20,000 feet, I don't see that as that as particularly scary. First and foremost, this myth of lawful gun owners firing willy-nilly and shooting bystanders just doesn't happen. It's a bullshit canard used by anti-gun activists. The data just doesn't support it. Seriously, go try and find stories of lawful permit holders shooting bystanders while stopping a crime in progress. I'll wait.

      Second, a bullet hole in a passenger plane at 20,000 feet (or higher even) is not really a cause for concern. Despite what Hollywood tells you, the plane will not fall out of the air, it will not explosively decompress, in fact it's decompression will be rather slow. At worst, the pilot will get a light on his console telling him that there is a loss of pressure, he will put his mask on, descend below 10,000 feet, declare an emergency and land at the nearest airfield which will handle his aircraft. And the passengers might have to put their masks on too. Even a dozen bullet holes are not going to cause a problem. Here, read about Aloha Flight 243 and consider for a moment that the aircraft involved lost the entirety of it's roof, actually did suffer explosive decompression, and the pilot still landed the airplane. The only loss of life was one flight attendant who was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

      As a free citizen, you are the first response to a crime as it happens. You have the choice to get involved and stop it, or you can sit by and encourage criminals by making it seem like they won't face resistance. That choice has been around a lot longer than the last 8 years. It's sad that the US Government seems to prefer encouraging criminals, but we the citizens need to realize that it's not helping anyone to stand idly by and let criminals take over our society. And the government is certainly doing us no favors by trying to take away from us the tools to do so.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
  2. Communal != Communism by geoffrobinson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Adding an -ism to the end of a word completely changes the concept. Doing something communally and sharing is not the same as being forced to share by the government.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:Communal != Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not necessarilly. Bullshitism would certainly make a nice name for the topic the article could be filed under.

    2. Re:Communal != Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Communism is a socio-economic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.

      Let's get that definition here, so people don't go off on a tangent, talking about stuff that isn't actually communism. ... Like this bullshit / flamebait article.

    3. Re:Communal != Communism by LifeWithJustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      geoffrobinson is correct here.

      Think about it this way.

      When you choose to help your fellow man you are happy. You feel a kinship with them.

      But when I'm taxed or forced to help in another way... I get no joy from this. Most of the time you feel put out. (Get off your and do something to better yourself ! -- for example)

    4. Re:Communal != Communism by sakdoctor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's not only that.

      When I choose to help, it's efficient.
      When forced to help, there is an inefficiency; and usually someone making a parasitic living off of doing the forcing.

    5. Re:Communal != Communism by harry666t · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hmmm... Would libertarianism mean "being forced to do whatever you want to"?

    6. Re:Communal != Communism by tnk1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed. Commun-ism as presented by the Marxist-Leninist-Maoists is a particular form of communalism that is mandatory and top-down. It advocated class warfare and violent revolution. At the very best, it was entirely amoral. And today, it is entirely discredited.

      Having said that, it was a reaction to some pretty terrible stuff that was going on at the time. And certainly, when they weren't indoctrinating their students with propaganda, you could get a damn fine education in many of those countries for free.

      The problem was that the particular solution, all things taken together, was actually worse than what it was trying to remedy. Communists ended up in factories just like they would have under capitalists, only the factories were government owned, and so they were accountable to no one. Capitalists are good at polluting places, but have you seen some of the insanely polluted areas of the Soviet Union and China?

      All of this is the result of top-down Communism. Do you think similar results would have been seen if initiatives came from the population rather than from the Party?

      For communal initiatives to work, the people involved need to be willing participants who have an enlightened understanding that their contribution, and their forbearance in not trying to cheat the system, are the key elements. It may well take a revolution of sorts, but not a violent one. Certainly not a class war.

      I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding between people who vote for more government because they believe that we need to work together, and those who vote against bigger government. Improving our ability to work together toward a common goal without a profit motive is not "Communism" nor is it "socialism". It's simply people working together on their own to develop their own solutions from bottom up. Unfortunately, the -isms have staked out the territory in a way that is completely counterproductive to making communal strategies work.

      On one hand, you've got the Communists and socialists who are in favor if public ownership and working together towards a goal, but you have to tolerate their bureaucratic, politicized top-down mandates.

      On the other hand, you have the capitalists who I believe rightly reject the intrusion and top down control of socialism, but then regard *any* community project as being Communistic, simply because it sounds like something a Communist would say.

      In reality, the linkage could not be more destructive. Why do we believe that top down control actually helps communal projects? Just look at what happened to the "Communists". They started out as a group that wanted power, and have turned into nationalist fascists in everything but name and flavor.

      I'm 100% in favor of breaking down capitalism into something that is more equitable for everyone. But we do need to understand that just because you give things to people for "free", doesn't mean you have made the world a better place or that it is even "communal". There still needs to be some sort of accounting about the true costs of programs and communal projects or you will find that against all odds, you have made the world a worse place to live in. Control and coordination of some form is needed, but it is a necessary evil, not a solution by itself.

    7. Re:Communal != Communism by Zerth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll volunteer to do tasks(helping people move, working in a soup kitchen) that I wouldn't choose to do for minimum wage(or even a reasonable amount).

      Gratitude seems to be worth around 2X my usual hourly rate.

  3. no. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Socialism is state control. What we have on the web is anarchy. Fun, friendly anarchy.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:no. by tygerstripes · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which - to quote the tragically overlooked Star Cops - means "without ruler", not "without order".

      I'm sure you knew that, but it's frustrating how many people don't.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
    2. Re:no. by gurps_npc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Techincally, Communism it the political structure, socialism is the economic structure. As such, socialism can be anarchy.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    3. Re:no. by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Socialism's no more a stepping stone towards Communism than carnivory is a stepping stone towards cannibalism.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    4. Re:no. by bmajik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      economic man and political man are the same man. If you must dictate a man's economics to him, you've dictated his life and his politics as well.

      Challenge: implement economic planning without the coercive power of government. a plan is useless if people won't carry it out.

      the real issue is statism vs. individualism. communism and socialism, to the extent that they are different, both lead to suppression of the individual.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    5. Re:no. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that political and social structures are on completely distinct axes. If you're oppressed after all, it doesn't matter much whether your oppressor is a government or corporation.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:no. by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Socialism is state control. What we have on the web is anarchy. Fun, friendly anarchy.

      Capitalism, socialism, and anarchism are ways of structuring an entire society. The web isn't a society, it's a tool. This is the same fallacy as talking about "netizens." You can't be a citizen of the net. That would be like being a citizen of your screwdriver.

      The main thing that makes anarchism different from, say, libertarianism, is that anarchists are against private property. The typical anarchist analysis is that the accumulation of private property leads to social inequality, the runaway concentration of wealth in the hands of a few people, and war. The Microsoft monopoly, for example, is something that's definitely completely antithetical to anarchist ideals of how society should work. Given that microsoft.com is part of the web, and that they'll take your money in return for their software, I don't really think the web qualifies as an institution that would be typical of an anarchist society.

      Since copyrights, trademarks, and patents are generally thought of as a kind of property, I really doubt that an anarchist society would have them. And yet I guarantee you that the computer I'm using, the computer you're using, and the computer that runs slashdot.org are all full of copyrighted software. For instance, my computer is running Linux, x.org, and Firefox right now. All that software is copyrighted, and the only reason it was legal for me to copy them off of the internet was that I was offered an opportunity to do so under licenses like the GPL. Doesn't sound very anarchistic to me.

    7. Re:no. by seandiggity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Socialism is state control. What we have on the web is anarchy. Fun, friendly anarchy.

      I think you need to take a look at An Anarchist FAQ :)

      Anarchism is a rich branch of the socialist tradition, and socialism is certainly not "state control" (contrary to what Cold War and current recession propaganda would have you believe).

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    8. Re:no. by Sockatume · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think you'll find there's a delicious genetic distinction to be made there.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    9. Re:no. by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The term "anarchism" literally means "without rulers". As I said, this is the only defining characteristic of anarchism, and free-market anarchism certainly qualifies.

      Now, it may be that the term "anarchism" is being re-defined through common usage, but I would submit that until its advocates can actually agree on some other definition, we have no choice but to continue using the original one.

    10. Re:no. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      the real issue is statism vs. individualism.

      Correction: the issue is collectivism vs individualism. Collectivism doesn't necessarily imply statism - that's why there are anarcho-socialists/communists, and libertarian socialists/communists. On the other hand, statism, of course, necessarily implies collectivism.

      You are correct, however, in that collectivism inevitably leads to suppression of the individual to some degree.

  4. Not important by Yvanhoe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Change the world. Let other people put labels. You'll be called a liberal, a communist, a nazi, a heathen, a bigot anyway...
    Open Source (I think that is what it's about) is not communism, it is open source. Putting labels or trying to over-simplify things hinders correct thinking.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Not important by harry666t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Words help people exchange ideas and communicate, but sometimes a word can only spoil the picture of the thing it is trying to describe. To describe something we experience, using words, we have to define it, create an abstract model, and when we do - the thing suddenly stops being anything beyond that model.

      You go on a walk, you see a tree, and you think, "it's a tree", and then just keep walking. You see another tree, and because "it's just another tree", it gets the same amount of your attention as all the other trees do. But what would happen if you'd stop calling these trees "trees", and try to experience them as they *really* are?

      My name is a label, my nickname is a label, my gender is a label, my profession is a label, the name of my school is a label, my hobbies, interests and skills are all labels. They all might have some informative or functional value, but people get too attached to them and often fail to perceive beyond what the words could describe.

  5. False opening statement by chatgris · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa"

    What? Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".

    Additionally, the "free" software you see isn't an affront to free market principles, in fact it is an application of "when a product has an infinitely increasing returns to scale, cost tends towards distribution costs", and since distribution costs are free, well, hello open source.

    Open source is very much a product of western, capitalist countries that PROMOTE the power of the individual.

    --
    Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
    1. Re:False opening statement by Sockatume · · Score: 2, Informative

      What? Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".

      Actually you've just beautifully illustrated his point. He was saying that we're indoctrinated with a false dichotomy that either it's the state or its the individual, and there's no compromise. He's arguing that in actual fact the greatest benefit to both comes somewhere in the middle, which is what you're going on about yourself in the rest of your post. By failing to see that point you're actually illustrating his idea.

      Incidentally, the USSR wasn't the fucking Borg. There wasn't some Marxist Hive Mind in which individuals are inidentifiable. There's a lot of hero worship in Russia and China, in much the same sense that there's plenty of group pride in the USA.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:False opening statement by jadavis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".

      I think that's a simplification. The one thing that stands out to me about Western society is the rule of law, rather than the rule of man (I know that's a simplification as well).

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    3. Re:False opening statement by maharb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Someone is paying to distribute electronic files. It may not be the open source developers but to say that there are no distribution costs is plain wrong. Tons of people work every day to maintain the infrastructure that sends data. These people are paid one way or another.

      Don't get me wrong I agree with the idea of your comments but I think that the confusion about why open source is free needs to be cleared up. Even open source can generate revenues that help pay distribution costs or pass distribution costs to the consumer by asking them to seed torrents. Open source is free because many see it as a better solution than what is available for money and are willing to contribute one way or another to the open source cause(code or money). Open source does not exist due to distribution costs.

  6. Sokal hoax? by brian0918 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Did anyone else get a flash of Alan Sokal's genius upon reading the quote from the summary? So many words, so little content.

  7. The problem with Communism by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... is that the word no longer means communism. Now it means oppressive government, ala Soviet Union, China, North Vietnam. But these places show no sign of following the idealist philosophy people like Karl Marx set forth.

    The concept of owning resources in common isn't anti-individualistic - having neighborhood parks or sharing roads and pipes and cables is just smart resource usage. Probably few people want absolutely everything to be publicly owned and managed, but most slashdotters probably like software and the internet that way.

    1. Re:The problem with Communism by brian0918 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The concept of owning resources in common isn't anti-individualistic

      There's nothing wrong with owning a resource in common - for example people in certain states resort to owning "shares" of a cow in order to legally get raw milk (you know, the stuff your grandparents drank without worry). But that's not the same thing as being *forced* to give up your property to a communal share. That is anti-individual and anti-man.

      having neighborhood parks or sharing roads and pipes and cables is just smart resource usage

      Well, that is obvious. I doubt anyone would disagree with you on that. So why the need to force it to happen through a government-backed monopoly?

    2. Re:The problem with Communism by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 2, Interesting

      three simple examples of 'communism' come to mind.

      1) the communal lives of monk and nuns ( from various faiths in many cultures).
      2) the communal lives of certain religious communities ( ex: Amish)
      3) neighborhood contracts, condominium boards.

      all three have worked. It is interesting that the 3rd works the least well from what I've seen.
      If people are acting in common because they want to believe it is of value to do so , communism works well. If people are sharing and acting in common because they are forced to by a contract or a government , it doesn't seem to work as well.
      My guess would be because it is too hard to actually enforce a sufficient set of rules so that things run smoothly when people don't police themselves.

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    3. Re:The problem with Communism by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > ... is that the word no longer means communism. Now it means oppressive government,

      No, it ALWAYS meant 'planned economy' and that implies a planner. To make that work requires force, and the only entity which can use force is the State.

      And that is why the Internet is about as far from .communism as you can get and the article is either idiocy or pushing a political agenda. There is no central planning on the Internet, which is why it works so well. Voluntary cooperation is as American/Capitalist/etc as Mom, Apple Pie and (until recently) Chevy.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    4. Re:The problem with Communism by vlm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      all three have worked. It is interesting that the 3rd works the least well from what I've seen.
      If people are acting in common because they want to believe it is of value to do so , communism works well. If people are sharing and acting in common because they are forced to by a contract or a government , it doesn't seem to work as well.

      A good fourth example is the US military, of which I was a part of in the early 90s. It's all teamwork, everyone shares, no one owns the hummvee (although is gets weird where one individual signed responsibility for it, yet does not "own it"). This is by no means my unique idea, I heard it all the time when I was in the military, the irony that our military forces exist to save us from the commies but ironically here we are with our military as the only really successful communist society....

      A pretty good summary of basic training was converting attitudes and outlooks via mild brainwashing techniques (sleep deprivation, stress, excessive enforced exercise, etc) from your second example "forced by contract" to your first example "believe it is of value to do so".

      I would interpret that as the only stable communistic societies would be either medieval theocratic (from your other examples) or modern militaristic, and I have little respect for either in general for all to live under (although I personally enjoyed my "time in green")

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:The problem with Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A cow can be easily owned, as can a jacket or a pile of money - but how about a mountain, or a forest, or a plot of land?
      From whence does the right for any man to own such things spring?

      One idea of communism is for a suitably* appointed organ, or state, to see that these kinds of resources, sprung not from the hands and backs of man, but rather from nature herself, be used in a manner that benefit not only those with power or gold to take it, but for them to benefit all, worker and patron alike.

      It takes nothing from the individual that is theirs - rather only those things that were not something to be owned, in the first place.

      *The appointment, now, is a problem - given the power required to put into action their intended tasks, a corrupt or incompetent organ could easily mean disaster, as seen in many of the attempts at communism through history.

      I would see democracy - while far from perfect, but still likely the fairest system for appointment we have found - applied not in opposition to communism, but in support and loving closeness with it. The enforcers of the common, appointed through the processes of democracy, and kept in check and balance by a number of independent organs, might see a society where the resources are indeed used for the common good, without any excess regulations or rights deposited unto the individual.

    6. Re:The problem with Communism by SQL+Error · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's nothing wrong with owning a resource in common - for example people in certain states resort to owning "shares" of a cow in order to legally get raw milk (you know, the stuff your grandparents drank without worry).

      My grandparents are dead.

      Coincidence? I think not.

    7. Re:The problem with Communism by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Informative

      So why the need to force it to happen through a government-backed monopoly?

      Because, NOMINALLY, the government is accountable to the people and will not abuse its monopoly. A private enterprise owning all the roads will. The market will converge to a monopoly due to network effects.

      "Oh, you have a road, how nice. It's a real shame it costs consumers 1000$ to cross the roads adjacent to yours."

      Judge for yourself whether that's reality.

      In economics, there's something called a Vickrey Auction, where you have n distinct goods and m players, each valuing each subset S of {1..n} at different levels.

      (having 23 volumes of a 24 volume encyclopedia is worth less than 23/24 times the value of a full encyclopedia; having a million apples is worth less than one million times the value of one apple: they rot)

      It's possible to solve a Vickrey Auction for maximal social benefit (IIRC), and each person ends up paying their externality---that is, how much "damage" they cause to the other participants.

      I wonder if microeconomics 101 (supply curve crosses demand curve at the market clearing price) can be derived from this.

      But I assume it's the reasoning behind green taxes on gas (you pay for the damage you cause to others due to pollution) and weight taxes (since your heavy car wears out the roads more than other cars, you pay for the repair work in proportion to how much you cause it).

      In some economic games, government intervention is preferable to anarchy (in theory). ISTR network construction and/or routing being among those games.

  8. Torrents by googlesmith123 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How about torrents?

    Torrents are after all based on share to get. If you upload you get to download.

    Communism at it's best.

    --
    Say NO to unpaid Internships!
  9. Completely confused by brian0918 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The "power of working together" comes from shared individual resources and individual insights. There is no collective consciousness, no collective ideas. Voluntary collaboration is capitalistic and leads to progress. Communism/socialism, on the other hand, demands forced collaboration.

    1. Re:Completely confused by brian0918 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sometimes it leads to collusion

      I don't think that word means what you think it means... How can total volunteerism lead to anything forced, as through fraud or the violation of rights?

      Which can also lead to progress.

      That is no justification for the inherent violation of individual rights that comes with such actions, though. That is why free market capitalism is the only moral system.

      capitalism also demands forced collaboration

      Words have meanings, regardless of whether you choose to acknowledge them. Any examples you could label as "force" under capitalism would be restrictions on the violations of individual rights - ie, self-defense or government retaliation against force.

  10. open source/Chinese communism by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Once I had a friend from China who really liked to talk about politics. He told me about the Chinese government, and how they are mostly becoming capitalist, even though they keep the name of Communism.

    Once he heard about open source, and so I explained it to him, finishing off with, "so in reality America is more communist than the Chinese." He got this shocked look that quickly turned into a bitter vengeful sort of look, and said nothing.

    --
    Qxe4
    1. Re:open source/Chinese communism by rhaacke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I recently made this same observation to my wife on a different subject. We have a home owner's association in our neighborhood. So, everyone's home must conform to a set of standards. As a result, everyone's home is almost indistinguishable from everyone else's. All we need to do is have everyone start wearing Mao Jackets.

  11. communism? by at_slashdot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property."

    Quote from one of the biggest Communists: Thomas Jefferson

    --
    "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
    1. Re:communism? by Flavio · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Quote from one of the biggest Communists: Thomas Jefferson

      That statement made me cringe, because it contradicts the whole body of knowledge that exists about Jefferson.

      Thomas Jefferson's quote merely shows that he was opposed to an inventor or discoverer gaining a monopoly over an idea. This is consistent with his defense of liberty, minimal government and free market capitalism.

    2. Re:communism? by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not really familiar with Jefferson's communist tendencies (especially since he was greatly in favor of a weak federal government, personal liberties, and against nationalized banks), but your quote really has nothing to do with communism either. The freedom of ideas is independent of communism or democracy, it has more to do with what rights the individual has. But I guess it just goes to show how lame this article is.

    3. Re:communism? by anaesthetica · · Score: 2, Informative

      Right on. It seems that this author is profoundly unfamiliar with his own heritage, and so is grasping out for the label 'socialism,' even though it doesn't make much sense. Tocqueville investigated what he found to be the peculiarly American tendency toward association.

      Better use has been made of association and this powerful instrument of action has been applied to more varied aims in America than anywhere else in the world. Apart from permanent associations such as townships, cities, and counties created by law, there are a quantity of others whose existence and growth are solely due to the initiative of individuals. [emphasis mine]

      The free institutions of the United States and the political rights enjoyed there provide a thousand continual reminders to every citizen that he lives in society. At every moment they bring his mind back to this idea, that it is the duty as well as the interest of men to be useful to their fellows. Having no particular reason to have others, since he is neither their slave nor their master, the American's heart easily inclines toward benevolence. At first it is of necessity that men attend to the public interest, afterward by choice.

      Americans of all ages, all stations in life, and all types of disposition are forever forming associations. There are not only commercial and industrial associations in which all take part, but others of a thousand different types—religious, moral, serious, futile, very general and very limited, immensely large and very minute... In every case, at the head of any new undertaking, where in France you would find the government or in England some territorial magnate, in the United States you are sure to find an association.

      One could go on pulling relevant quotes from Democracy in America on associations and civil society, but it's apparent that the author of the Wired article has either 1) never read any literature on civil society, or 2) has an agenda to push regardless.

  12. Web vs. Meat by gurps_npc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Communism did not work in meat-reality for several basic reasons.

    1. "...To each according to his needs." ignores luxury items, which no one needs, but people want. The existence of them makes people happy, and encourages work.

    2. It discourages individuals from working hard, as you gain nothing by doing so. Only those with a huge altruistic streak, or similar need for approval have incentive to work.

    3. "From each according to his capability". One of the major problems people have always had is to determine who is actually capable, as opposed to simply satisfactory. Capitalism, by offering HUGE incentives, tends to accurately discover who has capacity beyond minimal, while communism does not, resuolting in mediocre people being thought capable, thereby giving them authority.

    When you look at the web as opposed to meat-world, certain realities appear.

    First, everything on the web is at heart a luxury item. So what is going on is not "to each according to his needs", but instead "To each according to his desires."

    Second, The work at heart is realtively easier and ENJOYABLE to some. Anyone that has spent an hour digging a hole and an hour writing code will tell you that. So you don't need to actually encourage people to work hard.

    Third, capability on the web is easier to detect. More of it is one-person projects, and those are often signed. Software can be measured for speed, GUI can be easily be examined for ease of use.

    Fourthly, most of what is offered on the web is relatively low value, not high value. Honestly, we use socialism a lot in the Meat world - for low value things. People don't pay money for a better subway seat. We use socialism to assign movie theater seats - people in wheel chairs get the wheel chair seats for free, they are not forced to pay more for them - even if they are in prime spots.

    The web is not the meat-world. What works in one place will not work in the other.

    That said, I find that capitalism still tends to triump over socialism even in the web for most areas where money, the requirement for capitalism, exists. No socialist effort is going to make a web site that beats Google, Apple's itune Store, or Amazon.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Web vs. Meat by harry666t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Anyone that has spent an hour digging a hole
      > and an hour writing code will tell you that.

      Dunno. I've seen people on the 1st year of a CS course who'd be better off digging holes than being let to touch a computer.

  13. Yeah by ChienAndalu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder how North Korean Slashdot readers would respond to that.

    Oh, wait..

    1. Re:Yeah by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is authoritarian regime claiming to believe in Communism

      It doesn't even do that anymore. Since 1998, North Korean constitution doesn't even reference Marxism - it has been replaced with "The Juche Idea". From that WP article:

      "The North Korean government admits that Juche addresses questions previously considered in classical Marxism and its subsequent developments in Soviet Marxism-Leninism, but now distances itself from and even repudiates aspects of these political philosophies. The official position as maintained in Kim Jong-il's "The Juche Philosophy Is an Original Revolutionary Philosophy" (1996) is that Juche is a completely new ideology created by Kim Il-sung, who does not depend on the Marxist classics."

  14. Communism doesn't fail... by Mishotaki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Communism doesn't fail, people who had power failed communism...

    Every political ideology is right.... the people who have power, uses that power until they overuse it to their own profit so much that the majority of the people use their personal power ot overthrow them...

    The only good thing that democracy has right now is: it's not crooked enough to have the population revolt against it.

    I'm sure there will be one day that the people will wake up and know that their system is so corrupt, that the elected officials are only idiots who are popular and that the majority of the electorate refuse to vote because they know that no choice they can make will the right one, when every choice is a bad one...

    1. Re:Communism doesn't fail... by Pecisk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, interesting that you said that, because I am quite tired of black/white view of ideologies. Most of people don't want to know and don't care, but even smartest ones gets into ugly flamewars which leads nowhere.

      Said that, most interesting thing is to research weakneses of Communism as real ideology behind society. Again, junk science and capitalism woodoos says that Communism doesn't work because of human nature. Fail. It does, but it does in *microscale*. Problems arises when you scale it for larger society. People who usually want capitalism at all cost ar "broken goods" - e.g. people who parents have been poor, people who thing they will prove the world that they are the best, etc. They are not even slightly interested in common good. It is good or bad - it is not a point.

      Another point that there are two rather different movements who can be called Socialist or Communist. First of all, it is Bolshevists which represents hardcore, taking-no-prisoners attitude towards change in society. They believed that harsh regime should be implemented between capitalism and socialism. Of course, such attitude demotivated most of their supporting base in matter of months (for example, there were Bolshevist rulling for half a year in part of my country. Before they came into power people were kinda very positive towards Communism. When shootings, looting and baseless killings began, everyone understood that they just crooks with different label) and they fell into policy state regime.

      More or less there are another wing which represents more classic Communism ideology - that when capitalism will reach it's tipping point and maximum effectivity, then Communism will come naturally.

      Of course, all of this is theoretical "bla bla bla", BUT it gives me food of thought and you can see similar patterns in our society. For example - open source - it is capitalism, but in same time - it is Communism at micro scale. Everyone get what they want and what they need (of course it is absolute, it is not possible 100%, but anyway...).

      Also I don't like people avoiding to critize capitalism and feeling uneasy to do that. Yes, this system gives me job and posibility to do stuff, but I don't feel obliged to avoid criticism. Because capitalism can be better. People can be better.

      --
      user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
  15. I can't believe I'm saying it, but.. by dyingtolive · · Score: 4, Funny

    from the no-in-soviet-russia-jokes-i-swear-to-god dept.

    In soviet Russia, god swears to you?

    --
    Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
  16. Ummm no by jav1231 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Thus, digital socialism can be viewed as a third way that renders irrelevant the old debates."

    No it doesn't. Why? Because on the one hand you're talking forms of government and on the other you're talking digital collaboration. Try comparing apples to apples and your analogy rings truer. What may work for pooling resources within a piece of technology may not fair well in societies at large. The main reason being that there are very real political differences not only between groups of individuals but individuals themselves. At the risk of being as guilty as the author, you see the same things within collaborative technologies as forking is prominent. Furthermore, even within companies there is such collaboration so "collaboration" need not equal "communism."

  17. Like a fortune cookie... by philipkd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just add "on the Internet" to the key sentences and it all makes more sense.

    The frantic global rush to connect everyone to everyone, all the time, is quietly giving rise to a revised version of socialism.

    ... on the Internet

    These developments suggest a steady move toward a sort of socialism uniquely tuned for a networked world.

    ... on the Internet.

    he aim of a collective, however, is to engineer a system where self-directed peers take responsibility for critical processes and where difficult decisions, such as sorting out priorities, are decided by all participants.

    ... on the Internet.

    I wonder if these shocking cultural changes aren't as big of a deal as the Wired article makes it out to be, in that they're scoped only to the online world. The offline world may barely change in response. Then again, if everybody is more and more conducting most of their activities on the Internet, that's a different story.

  18. Re:Communal DOES == Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Adding an -ism to the end of a word completely changes the concept. Doing something communally and sharing is not the same as being forced to share by the government.

    This is a common misconception. A Communist society does not have a government.

    Being forced to share by a government is Socialism, not Communism. Communism is a society where everybody pitches in together so that nobody is in need and private ownership not only does not exist, but is not needed. It's a nice idea, and actually works very well in small groups where all members can police each other, but breaks down on any type of larger scale.

    Unfortunately many people still think that the USSR was a Communist country, even though the name itself says "Socialist" not "Communist", and it's to the point where the term is horribly misused. Kind of along the same lines as most people thinking the USA is a Democracy when in fact it is a Republic (or a "representational Democracy" if you prefer more politically 'correct' terminology).

  19. Re:He is describing Anarchism by Hatta · · Score: 4, Informative

    Indeed, few people recognize that one of Anarchism's greatest proponents was a leader in the International Workingmen's Association, along with Marx. Their political (but not economic) differences eventually led to a split in the International. And Bakunin predicted quite early that Marx's "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would simply be a dictatorship. He best summed this up by saying, "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality".

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  20. US != West by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not quite sure where the author got that idea. The US has always been based on the idea that the individual is paramount.

    I think you answered your own question. He got that idea from the US and, as is unfortunately rather stereotypical, forgot that there are more countries than the US in "the west". In most of those countries there is far more of a balance between the individual and the state. In fact even in the US this seems to be rapidly becoming the case because power is held increasingly by corporations and while US laws seem to regard these as individuals of some description they are in fact communal groups with rigid heirarchies.

  21. Infrastructure! (Don't fall for Communism Smear!) by StCredZero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > ...It allows individuals to aspire, self-organize, and express their individuality in a helpful way. So in that respect, I agree with the article. I just don't think it's anything new or anything to do with Communism as a system...

    So why do we move back to a stupid argument between the absolutes of Capitalism vs Communism when the correct solution is somewhere to be found in the middle?

    The key is that the Internet is Infrastructure. The tools we develop on it to organize ourselves are just Infrastructure. Open Source software, OSes and libraries are Infrastructure. It makes sense that individuals will sometimes collaborate in their own self interest to build common infrastructure, because ultimately it results in more benefit to individuals in the form of increased economic activity. If you're going to call the Internet Communist, you might as well also tar roads, bridges, water systems, sewage...

    Many think it should all be privatized, but this is a fringe view and the view of the majority is that some infrastructure is best implemented as some kind of collective endeavor, and that this is fine and normal. Communism is just a scare-word to make you think that this is somehow not good and normal.

  22. Capitalism quickest way to the ideal communism by psnyder · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Capitalism may be the quickest way to get to the true communistic ideal, not like the totalitarian states of the USSR, East Germany, North Korea, etc. Those were/are mainly dictatorships run by elite groups hiding under the veil of fairness and community.
    • Lightly regulated capitalism has shown to be the quickest "means to the ends" of technological progress and efficiency that the world has seen so far. The more efficiently we can satisfy our survival needs, the more time we have for altruistic endeavours.
    • The fact that there ARE still problems gives a motive to want to change those problems.
    • The idea that we can make a difference, without an oppressive, "overlord" state calling the shots, allows the motive to be put into action.

    The Open Source community exemplifies this.


    Despite its many flaws, capitalism is the quickest breeding ground for altruistic communal endeavours. When computer communication became efficient, an Open Source community was inevitable.

  23. Re:Communal DOES == Communism by damburger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    t's a nice idea, and actually works very well in small groups where all members can police each other, but breaks down on any type of larger scale.

    More correct to say, it has historically broken down at different scales in different times and places, and has never successfully been implemented on a national scale.

    Technology has changed the size and structure of informal, voluntary communities and made them stronger and more productive. Based on that observation alone, I don't think you can definitively say there are ideas for society that are universally bad or universally good - ideas depend on their implementation and their suitability for the (changing) situation.

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
  24. What makes Marxist socialism Marxist by butlerm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hesitate to break it to you, but *the* distinguishing characteristic of Marxism is the advocacy of the *violent* overthrow of the bourgoisie. Marx would be a footnote in history if he did not advocate that course of action and have half the world take him up on it.

    1. Re:What makes Marxist socialism Marxist by Nicopa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Absurd, Marx was a "hit" well before any revolution happened. And there were lots of other "revolutionaries" in the XIX century that nobody care about now. Marx is relevant because the amazingly sharp analysis of capitalism.

  25. Karl Marx's Dream by Xaedalus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I read the Manifesto, my takeaway was that Marx was really railing against Corporatism instead of Capitalism. My opinion of him was that he wasn't mad at Capitalism per say, he was mad at the social structures people created when they participated in corporate activities that demeaned and abused the workers. Why didn't he just say Corporatism instead of Capitalism? My guess is that he didn't know how else to describe the enemy he was writing about. Michael Crichton writes in The Great Train Robbery that the Victorians were the first 'modern' civilization and they were the first to grapple with all the current social issues we have right now with urbanization, capitalism, etc. The very concept of 'Corporatism' probably hadn't been invented yet and Marx had to work with the concepts at hand. When people work for a corporation, they tend to be subsumed within an amoral entity that reflects the sum total of its individual components. Thus being in the corporate environment tends to decrease our empathy for our fellow humans and in Marx's time, would lead to the abuses he saw.

    --
    Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    1. Re:Karl Marx's Dream by greenguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have a different take on it. I think Marx was indeed railing against capitalism, but not against free markets. If that sounds like a total contradiction, I encourage you to read David Korten and Kevin Carson.

      Capitalism is a system run by, and for, the capitalist. There are a number of ways an economy can be organized that aren't dependent either on the state or a capitalist. Are they socialist? That depends on your definition of "socialist."

      --
      What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
    2. Re:Karl Marx's Dream by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree with your interpretation: one thing Marx criticized was treating economics as an entirely separate sphere from society and politics. In some ways, a non-statist (in the national sense) version of socialism is when your local neighborhood meeting also addresses economic issues as well as transportation and education ones - and markets become ways that neighborhoods and the people in them exchange goods and services.

    3. Re:Karl Marx's Dream by master5o1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      per say

      per se

      --
      signature is pants
  26. This is Free Market economics, not communism by thtrgremlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who is being compelled against their will to contribute? While each individual may contribute to their ability, it is on a voluntary basis. "Each according to their need" is ONLY being met as market demands and individuals consider it in their best interest to meet that demand. Just because the exchange can not be measured in per unit monetary compensation does not make the contribution "selfless". People contribute for recognition, or hell, maybe because they actually gain value from their own work and can not loose any value by sharing it. Also, major contributions give you an advantage of time to market. Red Hat, for example, greatly gains from its contributions because while the information is free to share (even if they are not assisting directly to the free exchange) they have built the reputation of quality products and can be the first to teach people how to use it.

    I think what people are finally realizing is that censorship isn't greedy, but irrational. Copyright was intended to be very limited, but people like Jack Valenti made a living as a con artist convincing people otherwise. Copyright is government attempting to put a control on something that doesn't need to be controlled, and as people are escaping the abuse of government regulation by way of free and voluntary exchange of information as was MEANT to be protected in the US Constitution, of course we are seeing tremendous growth.

    Karl Marx would have called for government to come in and heavily regulate software. Designate a central authority to manage the development of software, public schools train a specific number of necessary software developers, outlaw the possession, development, or use of "rogue" compilers to help protect people from poor quality software that wasn't approved by the state, and possibly imprison people for unauthorized forking of projects arguing that such action "steals" the necessary resources of the state and impedes progress.

    Centralized, communistic control over what people develop and how is the way of Microsoft, if not even more so by Apple. Government does give them big contracts too, and many government (public) schools mandate their use.

    James Madison and Thomas Jefferson both said that with no natural right to real property ownership, there is no imaginable justification for natural rights over an idea (Jefferson Letters). Does that make THEM Communists?

    Further, just because everyone wins does not make it collectivism. Collectivism asks for self sacrifice, that you as an individual is not as important as the many. Really? That is why people develop software? Hackers don't have really huge egos when it comes to their accomplishments? Gee, guess I had it all wrong.

    I think the Internet is Communistic about as much as I think Al Gore invented it. If I haven't made my point yet, I don't know what else I can say that will.

    --
    Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    1. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by Azghoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just wanted to say, nice post.

      The idea that online software communities are somehow in any way related to government sponsored socialism is laughable at best. At worst, the guy's trying to co-opt the term and make it less scary when government DOES decide to do it to us.

    2. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who is being compelled against their will to contribute?

      That isn't related to communism at all.

      Karl Marx would have called for government to come in and heavily regulate software. Designate a central authority to manage the development of software, public schools train a specific number of necessary software developers, outlaw the possession, development, or use of "rogue" compilers to help protect people from poor quality software that wasn't approved by the state, and possibly imprison people for unauthorized forking of projects arguing that such action "steals" the necessary resources of the state and impedes progress.

      Not really. He called for a state-run economy as a replacement for a capitalist-owned one, as to make the working class the owners of the means of production. Increasing productivity was at best a secondary aim. Anyway, I don't think we can now what Marx would think about today's internet capitalism-communism-anarchism-whatever. It's just too different from 19th century industrial capitalism.

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    3. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by turbidostato · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Karl Marx would have called for government to come in and heavily regulate software. Designate a central authority to manage the development of software, public schools train a specific number of necessary software developers, outlaw the possession, development, or use of "rogue" compilers to help protect people from poor quality software that wasn't approved by the state, and possibly imprison people for unauthorized forking of projects arguing that such action "steals" the necessary resources of the state and impedes progress."

      It's obvious you never read Karl Marx. Marxism is not Stalinism. Did you knew that under Marx's opinion your "central authority" was just an interim but unavoidable artifact? Did you knew that lacking unsurmountable opposition from the capital oligochracy there's no need of such "central authority" in Marx'x opinion? In the end, did you knew that if the basic premise from this article is true -that capital oligochracy is not able to dismantle those communal efforts born from individuals' free will, Marx supports the opinion that no "central authority" is needed?

    4. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by bjourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, Marx' claim was that increased productivity would lead to the working class overtaking the production. Marx considered himself a scientist just as much as a philosopher. He noted that Capitalism in which the burgoese owns the means of production was more efficient than if the feudal lords owned it. Wage slavery was better than indentured service. In the US, the tension between the feudal system represented by the slave-based south states economy and the capitalistic north states lead to the civil war.

      Britain became a super power in the 19th century for the same reason. Because they were the first to adopt capitalism and therefore could produce stuff more efficiently than with the countries it competed with.

      Marx also postulated that there is another economic system, that was more efficient than capitalism, would overtake it someday. That system would be based on communal ownership of resources.

    5. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by thtrgremlin · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't think a lot of people followed his example very well. In applying his philosophy today, I believe a central authority that agreed with Marx would take it as an opportunity to justify what I stated. The decentralized, independent thinking socialist ideal today is the anarchist or socio-anarchist movement of which I would have to say I am a partial supporter / participant of. It could be that I needed to read the article more thoroughly, but the thing was so goofy in its attempts to force a relationship between certain events and terms that I must call BS. Guess what I really meant was that I could make exactly the same argument backwards and it would make just as much sense. The difference is that in application, and in the presence of a strong central authority, I think it would be far more appropriate to call this "Free Market Living Strong has escaped to Internet" than "New Global Collectivist Rejects Capitalism". The author brings up some great points, but I think his use of terms in describing certain things was only meant to be controversial. The terms are used so loosely, opposite / conflicting terms would have been just as appropriate, if not more so, to make exactly the same point (with regard to progress).

      fair?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    6. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by node+3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Your post is only true if you pretend subjective opinions are objective truths.

      Who is being compelled against their will to contribute? While each individual may contribute to their ability, it is on a voluntary basis. "Each according to their need" is ONLY being met as market demands and individuals consider it in their best interest to meet that demand.

      You're defining communism as requiring forced contribution, while overlooking the fact that people are forced to contribute in capitalism. The difference isn't compulsion per se, it's the nature of the compulsion.

      In a capitalist society, you have to contribute, starve, or rely on the charity of others. Under communism it's exactly the same. The main difference is you generally have more choice under capitalism because more of the economic decisions are distributed, while the economic decisions are more centralized under communism.

      But in neither system can you generally expect to skate by without contributing.

      Just because the exchange can not be measured in per unit monetary compensation does not make the contribution "selfless".

      Only if you define away "selfless" to meaninglessness. By your definition, it's essentially impossible to be selfless. Take the most selfless person you can think of--a parent, a teacher, a soldier, a nun, a disaster recovery volunteer, whatever you want, and every single one of these people derives some benefit from their sacrifice.

      Selfless, is more about voluntarily giving up some good or service at a loss without concern about making up those losses down the road. For example, MS giving away Windows to schools isn't selfless, it's self-serving. On the other hand, someone not set to benefit from MS Windows adoption anonymously giving away the same number of Windows licenses to the same schools is selfless, even if they get warm-fuzzies in return.

      Karl Marx would have called for government to come in and heavily regulate software. Designate a central authority to manage the development of software, public schools train a specific number of necessary software developers, outlaw the possession, development, or use of "rogue" compilers to help protect people from poor quality software that wasn't approved by the state, and possibly imprison people for unauthorized forking of projects arguing that such action "steals" the necessary resources of the state and impedes progress.

      You're thinking of Stalin and Lenin.

      James Madison and Thomas Jefferson both said that with no natural right to real property ownership, there is no imaginable justification for natural rights over an idea (Jefferson Letters). Does that make THEM Communists?

      No one is cut from whole cloth. The most capitalist person in the world has some communism in them, and vice versa.

      Further, just because everyone wins does not make it collectivism. Collectivism asks for self sacrifice, that you as an individual is not as important as the many. Really? That is why people develop software? Hackers don't have really huge egos when it comes to their accomplishments? Gee, guess I had it all wrong.

      Capitalism asks for self-sacrifice. Or is somehow the classes I've had to take to learn subjects I'm not interested in to spend time working in a place I'd rather not be doing things I'd rather not do not self-sacrifice, while taking classes to learn about people around me I don't generally care about and paying taxes or volunteering to help homeless people I don't know is self-sacrifice?

      Both collectivism and capitalism demand self-sacrifice. But as mentioned above, it's more a difference in style and choice than anything else.

    7. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by node+3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People voluntarily sharing and collaborating forming online communities is not the same as Communism or socialism.

      Yes, it is, if their goals are communal or social. It's only if they are oriented around the acquisition of wealth (capital) that such endeavors are examples of capitalism.

      Communism is all about Government power being used to force people to behave in the "appropriate" ways. With government power brokers determining what is appropriate and what isn't.

      No, that's totalitarianism. Currently, the capitalists in America are clamoring for more totalitarianism than the socialists are.

      The cooperation being seen between individuals is the exact opposite. People voluntarily working towards a common good that they choose for themselves.

      Very few people care at all about the common goals they are working for in their job. For most people, a job is a job, and it's something they do because they have to, not because they want to. Relatively few people are lucky enough to get to work at a job that they truly love because it's something actually want to do.

    8. Re:This is Free Market economics, not communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmmmm. Nope!

      I'd rather people stop equating Marxim with totalitarian dictatorships (such as Stalin's). It is as inaccurate and misrepresentative as equating the whole of medicine with the atrocities committed by the medical profession acting on behalf of the State. Godwin's Law forbids me from mentioning the obvious examples from Stalin's time but there are enough examples of others.

      Marx did not believe that the State should MAKE you do something in particular. His concern was actually that the State, in the interests of capital, MAKES you do something that's not in your best interests.

      He believed the State ought not be a means by which capital could control workers.

      For Marx his central concern was human nature was steamrolled by capital. The current (capitalist) economic relationships that preexisted each persons birth created an environment which produced a person alienated from the members of their community. Significantly it meant that people were forced (which is why your interpretation is so way off the mark) to participate in an economy which took their labour and efforts and returned less to them than it ought. It also (see the definition of alienation) meant that individuals were set up to compete, rather than cooperate, with each other - this he believed was against human nature and purely in the interest of the owners of the means of production.

      The history of Great Britain (and other industrialising nations) up until that time included mechanisms which provided capitalists with the pliable human resources which it was believed necessary for industrialism to work. For example, enclosure of the commons which forced people off the land and into the cities, thus making it imperative that they seek jobs which often paid them very little or in food and other goods. This limited people in being able to change jobs, move or improve their position. Laws were also passed resticting the right of labour to organise and negotiate.

      Capitalism separated indvidual workers from the fruit of their labour and thus alienated them from something central to the means by which humans created meaning and purpose in their lives - work. However, Marx's notion of work or labour did not mean that one HAD to be in paid employment to have purpose, meaning and value. This is what capitalism purports.

      Marx believed the product of labour belonged to those that produced it. He also believed that when this was allowed, people would naturally share - thinking this was part of human nature. Though his notion of human nature is difficult to identify, what is clear is that he felt humans were cooperative and sharing by nature and thus socialism was a more accurate reflection of this than capitalism, which denies sharing and promotes self-interest.

      In summary, he was concerned that capitalism meant that people were not able to benefit from their labour and were set up to compete against other members of their community. The notion of alienation is central to understanding Marx's work and a failure to grasp this turns Marxism into a slogan.

  27. Communal Behavior != Communism by secondhand_Buddah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The author has kind of missed the point. Communism is an economic system. It is not about communal behaviour at all. Communism is an alternative to Capitalism or Socialism. It is not an alternative to democracy.

    Most of the systems the author speaks about are new social systems that operate within a Capitalist framework. They could not exist in a communist framework, unless sanctioned by the politburo, because in a communist everything is owned by the state.

    --
    Participatory Governance : The only feasible option for a real democracy, where everyone really does have a say.
  28. Re:Anonymous Coward by megamerican · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Whoever wrote that doesn't know what Communism is, at all. What they are describing is entirely free-market anarchism.

    Voluntary associations are a natural consequence of limited central authorities. Tocqueville's Democracy in America describes in great detail the amount of voluntary associations that sprang up in the country's early history.

    They fill the voids that government and corporations simply can't fill. Sharing and the building of like-minded communities and organizations are not Communistic or Socialistic in nature, unless they are forced.

    I hope the internet can stay like this but it'll be a hard, continuous fight. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

    --
    If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
  29. True opening statement by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa"

    What? Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".

    The internet works because in many cases empowered individuals will choose the good of the many because it aligns so nicely with the good of the few/themselves. Some of these cases happen naturally, and some are the result of government setting a proper framework for interaction (so, extending the power of individuals by extending the power of government).

    There is no "conversely" here.

  30. Encouraging? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "I'm not quite sure where the author got that idea. The US has always been based on the idea that the individual is paramount. In our popular culture, we have always derived our strength from the individual and his willingness to help others."

    Those ideas are being smothered and weeded out of society today. Seat belt laws came about because big brother (primarily insurance companies) knows better than the individual. The "proper" use of Personal Protection Equipment isn't an individual choice (either for the individual worker, or the individual company) instead being mandated by both law and insurance policies. Individual choice is being assaulted when it comes to health/life insurance in general - laws are being authored that REQUIRE an individual to have insurance, along with minimum requirements for that insurance. An individual cannot decide to save a few dollars on an automobile purchase by dropping the 6 airbags, shock absorbers in the bumpers, shatterproof glass, and all the other innovations designed to save lives.

    Individual choice in education is limited in this day and age - the government mandates the curriculum to a large extent, and local schoolboards have little choice in the matter.

    I AM an individualist, and I am keenly aware of the restrictions placed on me by society. Any time I do the "unexpected", thus standing out from the crowd, there is a policeman nearby to question me.

    No, the US is definitely moving toward collectivism, there is no denying that. The law of the land is "Conform, or be rehabilitated."

    No longer do people take pride in local culture - instead, one homogenous people from sea to shining sea watches the same drivel that Hollywood calls "entertainment", eats the same pablum pushed by McDonald's and other corporate food chains, and puts themselves in debt trying to keep up with role models held out by Corporate America.

    Need an example of the loss of individualism? Go down to any street corner in the cities. Watch the white boys who are trying to look/sound black. Watch the black and the latin ladies who are trying to look/sound white.

    Individuals are looking at extinction in the not-so-distant future. It ain't cool to be black, or white, or Mexican. It ain't cool to be Southern, Northern, or Mid-Western. It certainly ain't cool to be proud of your German ancestry, your Polish ancestry, or whichever land our grandparents came from. It is very UNCOOL to proclaim your religious background with your dress, actions, or words - you will be accused of some kind of intolerance.

    "It takes a village to raise an idiot" is the wisdom today....... and they aren't far from wrong.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  31. Re:Anonymous Coward by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't communism in the sense that a government would implement communism (ie all property's held in common), it's more like communism in the way that it's communism to help your neighbor move out. It's holding things in common that have no intrinsic worth (eg the polarity on the hard disk's platter doesn't have any value in and of itself, but when you put it together with the other bits they become an mp3) and then giving labor for free that would normally be charged for (just like helping your neighbor move).

    It's more like communitism (yeah, I made that up), where people help each other just to help each other out. It's a great thing, but communism it's not.

  32. Where's the philosophical/political context? by seandiggity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It boggles my mind that most of these comments ignore the very explicit political and philosophical goals of the FSF and GNU. So many are quick to "push politics aside" while reaping the benefits of battles won through hard, serious activism. How about actually reading RMS's writing (RTFRMS?), for a start?

    The Wired article is pretty bad, which I expect, but the /. summary doesn't provide any context that could make this a good forum for discussing the very important cultural shift we're all experiencing. This link in particular seems appropriate, since the term "Dot-Communism" is thrown around.

    --
    Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
  33. Re:Anonymous Coward by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Insightful

    or Socialistic in nature, unless they are forced.

    Where are you getting this idea that socialism means "Force"? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't fit anything I've ever heard or read on the subject. I would say you're confusing socialism and authoritarian communism, except that you seemed to make a clear distinction between the two.

  34. Re:Anonymous Coward by CarpetShark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it's communism to help your neighbor move out

    No, that's community.

  35. The Capitalist View tends to be Two-Faced by serutan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Whether you work for a small startup or a megacorp there's always an emphasis on the importance of teamwork, cooperation and selflessness -- but only within the organization. Those attitudes seem to be great as long as they serve one business, but somehow they become evil when they aren't helping one business compete against another. The business world's combination of cooperation and competition has produced great things, but it doesn't always. For example, competition is paramount even in the face of a superior product. Better products often disappear because of bad marketing, lack of advertising money, or because of short-term price pressure introduced artificially by competitors with deeper pockets who want to keep their own inferior products on the market. The competitive spirit of capitalism can certainly show a lot of gumption and drive, but there's a peeing-in-the-pool aspect to it that just doesn't appeal to me. I think the reason it usually wins over cooperation is that it dangles the carrot of fabulous wealth in front of people's faces, like a Golden Ticket, and more people are drawn to that particular carrot than the wouldn't-this-be-cool carrot.

  36. The Inviasible Gun by thtrgremlin · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Maybe this only further supports your point, but I think one major issue is that people try to take all political issues and put them on one spectrum between capitalism and communism, or socialism versus free market. This is ridiculous. Capitalism is about the right for individuals to own property, and Free Market is the idea that individuals can make the most responsive efficient rational choices regarding their labor and resources, which of course quickly ties back to the idea of Capitalism. Communism claims that individuals are wasteful and inefficient, and if left to their own devices are corrosive to society; only an all powerful, all seeing state can best manage the resources and labor of a society for greatest good.

    Middle ground? There is no middle ground. What DOES exist is different questions, but not middle ground. If one tends towards a better society, than a mix of both is certain to be a failure.

    The problem I see is that people (of certain political tendencies) give government certain god-like qualities, most common believing government has perfect knowledge, or that anything the government does is "free". Government is simply a business that "we" have authorized a virtually unlimited use of force. Beyond that they have no special super powers. Government can help organize a military to protect against foreign invaders, police that can neutrally handle disputes over violations of social contract, courts to handle issues of contract law and establish statutes regarding the interpretation of contract language to help encourage mutually beneficial voluntary exchange of goods and service.

    To say "we need the government to blah blah blah..." is to say that violence is a necessary means to an end. To paraphrase Jonathan Gullible, the penalty for all crimes against government is death / loss of life. This is the difference between taxes and charitable donation or voluntary exchange; people will be most compelled to be charitable with a gun to their head, how could we ever expect to get so much from people on a voluntary basis? If it is a one time thing, I would be inclined to agree, but can you really argue maximum net production through such means? This implies that a robber could keep robbing the same home repeatedly and that their gain will be proportional to the number of times they rob the house. Does knowing which houses are the richest change much?

    To paraphrase Richard Saldman

    Let me suggest an experiment. ... For one year don't buy or use any Microsoft products. ... At the same time send the government no money, that is, pay no taxes. Then wait. Watch who comes after you for your money and how and with what weapons.

    The "problem" with the government trying to regulate the Internet is where do you point the gun, the governments only tool? The government does not do work, it only consumes, with the intent and strength to intimidate by threat do do what it desires... but it is ok because it is the will of (51% of) the people, right?

    And just because it was brought it up, got to mention something. I am really getting tired of this "finding a middle ground" / "moderate" position. Moderation is a tool of negotiation, not a principle unto itself. Take for example an accused killer. The courts have the authorization to take this persons life if convicted of the crime, so there is a burden of the court to justify both its use of force, and their authority to do so. In this particular case, it is found that the police in their enthusiasm fabricated evidence in order to make the case go faster. Unfortunately for the police as a matter of checks and balances, their fabrication of evidence and getting caught in doing so means that the accused man must be let go, because an objective measure of evidence, according to the law, is now impossible. One one side, (a type of classical conservative) people claim that unfortunately the man must be let go, and shame of the police for tainting their revered leg

    --
    Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    1. Re:The Inviasible Gun by turbidostato · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Capitalism is about the right for individuals to own property"

      Not. Capital is not property; property is not capital. Capitalism is about giving almighty power to capital disregarding everything else.

      "Communism claims that individuals are wasteful and inefficient"

      Not. Communism claims that individuals should be liberated from the tiranny of capital as an almighty power.

      "only an all powerful, all seeing state can best manage the resources and labor of a society for greatest good."

      Not. Marx states that only a temporal all powerful all seeing state can crush away the minority of those few greedy individuals that control society by means of capital and use their power to perpetuate such 'statu quo'. Once the goal acomplished, such powerful state machinery would dismantle itself and vanish.

    2. Re:The Inviasible Gun by OwnedByTwoCats · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Capitalism is about the right for individuals to own property, and Free Market is the idea that individuals can make the most responsive efficient rational choices regarding their labor and resources, which of course quickly ties back to the idea of Capitalism.

      You are ignoring Market Failures: times when the free market does not produce an efficient solution. Free Markets have several problems:

      • uncaptured externalities, when an exchange does not capture all of the value or harm. Pollution is a significant uncaptured externality; companies could escape the costs of polluting others' environment.
      • free rider, when people cannot be prevented from benefiting from a good when they choose not to pay for it. National defense is an example of this. There is no way to enable the army to only protect those who choose to pay for it, and leave those choose not to pay vulnerable.
      • natural monopolies, when the nature of the good (continually declining marginal costs, or high sunk costs) enables the dominant supplier to undercut all other competitors, and eventually become the sole supplier and rake in monopoly profits.

      Middle ground? There is no middle ground. What DOES exist is different questions, but not middle ground. If one tends towards a better society, than a mix of both is certain to be a failure.

      Why? Because you say so? Because Ayn Rand wrote it down?

    3. Re:The Inviasible Gun by tixxit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To paraphrase Richard Saldman

      Let me suggest an experiment. ... For one year don't buy or use any Microsoft products. ... At the same time send the government no money, that is, pay no taxes. Then wait. Watch who comes after you for your money and how and with what weapons.

      That quote doesn't really work. If you don't use or buy any MS products, then there is no gain and MS has no loss, so they would have no justification for coming after you. However, your taxes are not without gain. You get roads, emergency services, an army, subsidized utilities of all kinds, etc. Just because you stopped paying your taxes, doesn't mean the police won't help you, or your military won't defend you. If you want a real analogy, it would be:

      Let me suggest an experiment. ... For one year don't buy or use any Microsoft products. ... At the same time move to another country and send the government of your original country no money, that is, pay no taxes for the country you no longer live in. Then wait. Watch who comes after you for your money and how and with what weapons.

      I don't pay tax to the UK, because I don't live there. I don't give money to MS because I don't use their products. Neither one will be "coming after me."

    4. Re:The Inviasible Gun by DarKnyht · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Marx states that only a temporal all powerful all seeing state can crush away the minority of those few greedy individuals that control society by means of capital and use their power to perpetuate such 'statu quo'. Once the goal acomplished, such powerful state machinery would dismantle itself and vanish.

      Yeah, that worked out great for Russia now didn't it. Those crazy people holding the power of the state machinery just said, "Okay, we've crushed everyone now let's just sprinkle this power all around to them to make them feel better."

      --
      Voting them all out of office, now that's change I can believe in.
    5. Re:The Inviasible Gun by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And just because it was brought it up, got to mention something. I am really getting tired of this "finding a middle ground" / "moderate" position. Moderation is a tool of negotiation, not a principle unto itself.

      The principles on display:

      * The opinions of others have merit.
      * No one person has all the wisdom, so the best answers are usually found by bringing together a wide variety of views.
      * The ability to engage with opposing viewpoints is not just critical to a peaceful, civilized society, it is also a way of treating your fellow human beings as human beings, not as obstacles to steamroll over.

      Those principles are highly desirable. I don't think that the "add the positions and divide by two" approach is the best way to achieve them, though.

      In fact, it can achieve the opposite. Rather than listening to one another, two different sides can simply stake out more extreme positions, in the hope of screwing up the average.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    6. Re:The Inviasible Gun by binomialCoward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Russia was meant to be frozen in a perpetual state of intermediate communism while the rest of the world experienced proletariat revolutions. Eventually, the supposed plan was to have all government wither to nothing, leaving self-regulating anarchistic local councils.

  37. Re:Infrastructure! (Don't fall for Communism Smear by thtrgremlin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Very well said, thank you. While I think that the only just purpose of government is infrastructure, the only point I would clarify is that the only thing that makes government special is that they are the one company whose actions can not ever be accused of being criminal, from taking in the form of taxes, to the use of force to compel people to do things. Smith and many other Free Market supporters speak of the invisible hand of the economy. Government is often an invisible gun. In any argument that begins with "The government needs to..." should simply be replaced with "The use of violence is necessary because...". I think this would make many debates go much more smoothly, and also much more honest about what we expect the "government" to do.

    --
    Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
  38. Re:Anonymous Coward by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

    Whoever wrote that doesn't know what Communism is, at all.

    Nope, it's you who do not know what the original communism is, at all. Hint: Karl Marx wouldn't call either USSR, China, Cuba, or North Korea communist. In fact, he would probably be revolted with Marxism-Leninism, from which every single pseudo-Communist state in existence took its inspiration.

    Sharing and the building of like-minded communities and organizations are not Communistic or Socialistic in nature, unless they are forced.

    Have you ever heard the term "anarcho-socialism" or "anarcho-communism"?

    In fact, the word "anarchism" without any qualifiers, by default, is generally taken to mean "anarcho-socialism", precisely because socialist anarchists were the first to flesh out a coherent ideology and philosophy. Anarcho-capitalism as a distinct ideology is a more recent invention.

  39. Re:Anonymous Coward by lwsimon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is what I was thinking.

    Individuals banding together, each contributing and receiving value in return is what the free market is all about - there are no conflicts of interest amongst rational actors.

    The problems start when people decide that they know better than the individual, and want to force - or "incentivize" - their compliance.

    The real battle in society is not capitalism vs. socialism, but statism vs. individualism.

    --
    Learn about Photography Basics.
  40. Re:Anonymous Coward by Liberaltarian · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's a testament to the state of our political discourse that we think of those terms in an either/or manner. There's a reason those two words have the same root, and were both used long before Karl Marx took pen to paper.

    The maxim "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" is precisely what's going on when you're helping your neighbor move out without charging him a fee or putting a similar condition on your act. Up until comparatively recently, market behavior was understood to be the precise opposite of "community," and was not welcome in it.

    --
    The Fight for Student Power on Campus: www.forstudentpower.org.
  41. Not "free market" by Paua+Fritter · · Score: 3, Informative

    What they are describing is entirely free-market anarchism

    I think it's a mistake to characterise it as "free-market". It misses the point and obscures the thing which is actually the most interesting about "dot-communism".

    A market is a place where you go to exchange goods and services for other things of equal value (="commodity exchange"). What makes it "free" is that you are free to exchange or not. No-one forces you to buy or sell.

    But a market is only one possible exchange mechanism. For instance, my girlfriend brought me coffee in bed this morning. On the weekend I'll make breakfast while she sleeps in. This is an exchange of valued goods and services, but it is not a market. I did not pay for that coffee. When you cook dinner for your family, you don't typically expect them to pay you for it. Sometimes kids do get paid for doing chores around the house, and to that extent they are working in a market (though not a free market!). But usually domestic production is carried on outside of market mechanisms, using a form of "gift exchange". Note that gift exchange predates the market, historically. Our distant ancestors did not have money, but they have always had exchange.

    Similarly, market transactions are unlike the transactions that take place in a "dot-communist" system. e.g. if I download a piece of free software, and I contribute a patch to that same software, I have clearly made an exchange, but this is not a market transaction. I don't buy the software and sell my patch. I don't swap the software for my patch. I freely (as in gratuitously) obtain the software and am under no obligation to submit my patch, which I submit entirely voluntarily. I could just as easily (more easily) not submit a patch at all. It is this non-market nature which is the unusual thing about "dot-communism".

    What's new here (and politically significant), is that non-market exchange is hitting the big-time, outside of the domestic sphere, as part of large-scale, socialised, economic production (e.g. Linux).