Allegedly Rigged Product Demo In SAP Suit Goes Missing

narramissic writes "Waste Management sued SAP in March 2008 over a failed ERP project. Now, well into the pre-trial discovery process, a presale product demonstration software package that Waste Management says was a key element of the 'false representations' SAP made to 'induce Waste Management into entering a software licensing and implementation agreement' has gone missing. Naturally, both sides say the other has it. And SAP, for its part, says it has 'searched extensively' for the system and wants it 'as much or more' as Waste Management, since it 'will help SAP disprove WM's fraud claim.'"

Comments

like every other sales demo

[SoupGuru]

So this is pretty much like any other sales demo?

Re:like every other sales demo

[Locke2005]

In response to Waste Management's complaint, SAP has said in part that the company failed to "timely and accurately define its business requirements" and did not supply "sufficient, knowledgeable, decision-empowered users and managers" to work on the project. So this was pretty much like every software project I've ever worked on?

Re:like every other sales demo

[sortius_nod]

Sounds like most projects I've worked on.

The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.

Re:like every other sales demo

[TheRealMindChild]

"So I have this great Wazmo that you certainly need! It jimmies your jewels so that they hum with the harmony of a negative color! You want to buy it, we want to sell it! It is a win-win for everyone!"

That is my sales pitch... and you just bought my Wazmo. Who is the idiot?

Re:like every other sales demo

[Decameron81]

Sounds like most projects I've worked on.

The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.

IMHO it's more complex than that. There's guilt in both sides.

Customers are guilty in that they often don't bother trying to check if what they are being sold is feasible at all. The end result is that most of the times they are willing to pay for more features in less time, even when that "more" is clearly an impossible goal. For instance if I asked you to develop an MSN clone with a proprietary protocol from scratch, and you told me it'd be ready in a week for $20, I would look for someone else to get it done.

Problem is when the customer doesn't know better, and is unreasonable.

Re:like every other sales demo

[ppanon]

WM is so impompetent[sic], that they need software to manage their company.

Wow, so you think that trying to use software to improve your business processes by automating as many deterministic tasks as possible is a sign of incompetence? So what do you do exactly? If you're a programmer, can we assume that you demonstrate your competence by manually translating all your high-level language programs into machine code by hand?

Re:like every other sales demo

[hairyfeet]

I have to agree, that while it sounds like both sides didn't bring the brightest bulbs to the table, SAP screwed the bigger pooch by signing the agreement without knowing what they were getting into. It is like when I build a new PC. Folks often just want me to quote them some price but I refuse. I ask them to at least give me an IDEA of what they want, to which I usually get something like "Really really fast with a crapload of memory(which you have to watch out for, because half the time they say memory when they mean HDD space) and super duper graphics and..". It reminds me of that old line from Robocop-"I want a car that is really really fast and gets really shitty gas mileage! I want a fully loaded 6000 SUX!

So then I quote them a crazy price and after they are done choking I say "Now why don't you just sit down and tell what you want to DO with it, and I can help you design an affordable machine that will do what you want and be reliable." and every time their description ends up getting them a dual core with 4Gb of RAM, a 250-500Gb HDD, Onboard Graphics(which are actually pretty good now) and XP Home. And they leave with a smile on their face and are gushing to their friends about how great I am.

The problem is when the client asked for the moon for $1 SAP said "sure, we'll throw in Mars while we are at it!" instead of simply refusing to sign anything until they sat down with somebody with a brain that could tell them what they actually needed the thing to DO, instead of what they WANTED. Because I have found those two things are almost never even slightly related. IMHO it is always better to give the customer what they need and not what they want. If you meet their needs they are usually happy campers. If you try to give them their desires not only will it be expensive as hell, it will often not actually do what they need. And nothing pisses off a customer more than spending big bucks and finding out after all is said and done they are still stuck with the same problems they had before they paid you.

Re:like every other sales demo

[jsebrech]

The company I work for also sells waste management solutions. The first time we sold it, we took a planning tool meant for building maintenance (repairing light bulbs and the like) and repurposed it. Even today the garbage trucks still have to be entered into the system as employees.

So, yeah, this is pretty common.

Then again, the users are very positive about our solution, which is apparently one of the easiest to use in the market. That says a lot about just how bad the niche enterprise software business is in general. People think those special-purpose apps are well-crafted, but because they're special purpose they usually are held to a much lower standard than consumer apps.

The most embarassing "enterprise" niche software product I've seen was a solution for patient transport in hospitals. It was written by a hobbyist, and I could have done a better job at 15 than that guy did. Still, they sold it for thousands of dollars a seat, and were apparently one of the key players in the patient transport business. Scary.

Re:like every other sales demo

[jsebrech]

This happens all the time in the specialized software business.

Usually the needs are so particular that there's nothing in the market that does exactly what they want. So, you get approached by someone who knows you don't sell what they need, but they hope you can build/adapt something quickly.

The surprising thing is that if you press for exact specs at the beginning of the project, the entire project is often derailed. The realization by the customer that they don't know what they want is often enough to scare them away from buying a solution for their problem. Sales will put a lot of pressure on development in the form "just give us a general quote, we'll figure it out once they sign". For sales, every signature is a win. For the business as a whole, some projects are money losers.

Re:like every other sales demo

[diskis]

Actually software like SAP requre their own administrative/support staff. SAP is so complex (=administrative nightmare) that a company must have specialists available if they are to purchase it.
And purchasing SAP is not because of lack of technical expertise, it's because software in that scale takes years and years to develop and test. Buy it, and it's up and running in a few weeks.

Re:like every other sales demo

[cerberusss]

instead of simply refusing to sign anything until they sat down with somebody with a brain that could tell them what they actually needed the thing to DO, instead of what they WANTED

In my opinion, it doesn't always work like that. I run my own business and regularly the following happens:

• Client posts a pretty generic Request For Proposal (RFP) on a website
• I put in some thought (say, an hour) and give a rough price
• They call me and make an appointment
• We meet and talk it through for about two hours
• I make a final proposal, another four hours.

Now I've spend a day and have not yet seen a single penny. The customer usually replies with "thanks for the proposal, but you should change this-and-that, and we should talk more about the details".

To which I usually say -- look we can talk about it some more, but I already have spent a lot of time. Are you going to sign or not? So me and the client sign an agreement without knowing all details. These are hammered out later in a functional design. If I come to the conclusion that the devil is in the details and the tolerances in my quoted price are too limited, I tell them this and possibly break out of the agreement.

The point is that these two parties did not break out of the agreement early enough.

SAP reply was to waste management...

[Anonymous Coward]

in reference to cleaning up this mess...

"Can't someone else do it?"

Waste management was not amused.

3 points for the reference.

I for one...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Would definitely trust SAP on this. Who wouldn't trust an ERP vendor that either managed to lose a vital file or managed to "lose" a vital file?

Getting to choose between serious incompetence and outright malice is always fun.

Re:I for one...

[sys.stdout.write]

Apparently you've never used SAP.

SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.

Any product demo showing SAP working in a satisfactory manner is clearly fraud.

Re:I for one...

[jeffbruce]

You missed Stop All Production

Re:I for one...

[interkin3tic]

Seriously, what is ERP and what is SAP? Like, from a tree?

NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!

Re:I for one...

[Jake73]

Actually, I'm convinced SAP saves big companies millions of dollars. They do so by losing invoices or making it so difficult for other companies to invoice them that these invoices never get paid. Companies using SAP have much higher payment aging than other companies.

Re:I for one...

[petermgreen]

And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?

Re:I for one...

[superdave80]

While working for a factory that was switching over to SAP, I noticed that anyone outside of the SAP world (users) pronounces it 'Sap' (like from a tree). While everyone in the SAP world (consultants, etc) is very careful to pronounce it S-A-P (sounding out each letter). And they are quick to tell people that pronounce it 'Sap' that it should be pronounced S-A-P.

The software sucked so badly, and I hated it so much, that whenever I was around our SAP consultants, I made a conscience effort to say 'Sap' instead of S-A-P every chance I got. :-)

Re:I for one...

[_Sprocket_]

And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?

That's the beauty of it. You go with a supplier that's large enough to have their own SAP implementation. That way, the supplier is pretty much in the dark as well and it takes them a while to realize they should have cut you off years ago.

Re:I for one...

[enogeejon]

fyi, ERP = Enterprise Resource Planning SAP = Systemanalyse und Programmentwicklung which roughly translates into System Analysis and Programming. Now, since I work as a SAP BASIS (sys. admin.) administrator at a managed services hosting company so I actually get to work with multiple companies SAP landscapes daily so I can easily play devils advocate for SAP here. Maybe part of the problem for Waste Management is that they have a less than stellar implementation partner. It can easily take months for the developers to tailor SAP for the customer, often so long that you might think that writing something from the ground up makes more sense and maybe sometimes it does. Really, it depends on the scope of your business and what you really want to do and seriously, the scope of SAP is very large even without any of the add on products. However, as to losing the system, neither company should have lost it though I have my doubts that there are many IT managers who could manage to get any version of SAP installed and working on their own so the Waste Management IT Manager and their staff might just have tried to install the demo but failed and then chucked it. As I really see it though, if the business can't clearly define their needs then they are going to just end up wasting lots of money no matter what software they are working with, I have seen it with .NET, Java, and php/mysql as well as SAP.

Re:I for one...

[b4dc0d3r]

This is not funny. I work at a fortune 11x company and I know several things are true.

1) We use SAP because they made a pitch and hooked a sucker in a suit.
2) You buy SAP, then a plan to "customize" it.
3) Customize means "finish the code"
4) It also means you pay high-ranking aka high-earning business types piles of money to give requirements to SAP when a junior coder could just do the obvious and have something that works
5) The requirements you give to SAP are exactly the same as what the sales pitch said it already did

I'm sure I could go on. This is not a funny comment, it is how SAP works. Mod me scary or obvious if you want, but not funny.

Re:I for one...

[mazarin5]

That means it's between midnight and noon.

Isn't everything? :)

Hahahaha

[goldaryn]

Hahahaha

In response to Waste Management's complaint, SAP has said in part that the company failed to "timely and accurately define its business requirements" and did not supply "sufficient, knowledgeable, decision-empowered users and managers"

Not "decision-empowered".. good way of saying brainless lusers. I like it!

Re:Hahahaha

[TheRealMindChild]

And truly, that is probably what it was. They were being sold something and couldn't filter out the buzzwords. They thought they were getting X and they got Y. When it came time to show the cards, someone competent looks it over and says "Uh, dude, you just had no idea what you agreed to buy". It happens WAY too much.

Re:i had it

[Captain Splendid]

You chose...poorly.

Oh, oh, SAP

[Anonymous Coward]

SAP... liquid cement... the firm that sold ERP to CEOs and turned thriving firms into basket cases by forcing wholesale moves to slow, cumbersome, slow-motion systems controlled by an elite of take-it-up-the-ass-and-weep consultants and partners? The firm that pioneered the creation of Euro 1,250 "consultants" who were newbies with sociology majors that had done three months of BAP and knew less about software than a E-scoring CompSci major. The firm that pushed for software patents in Europe because they swallowed the cool aid and were too pussy to compete against FOSS? And finally someone sued them? Where do I donate to the attack fund? God, I *hate* SAP. Bastards, long overdue against the wall. Utter, utter bastards.

Re:Oh, oh, SAP

[Hognoxious]

Hi Larry. How's the yacht?

Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Waste Management is headquartered about an hour from SAP America's headquarters in PA.

They also are also the subject of various mob-related rumors (as are all trash disposal companies), and have had a dubious string of CEO's come and leave under weird accusations of accounting fraud.

I wouldn't want to walk to my car late at night at SAP. That's all I'm sayin'.

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[superdave80]

How the hell did trash disposal get so mobbed up? Did the first conversation go something like this:

Mob Boss: Ya know, it's great being in the booze, gambling, and beating the crap out of people business, but you know what I've always wanted to get a piece of...?
Mob Lackey: What's dat, boss?
Mob Boss: ...garbage collection. There's nuthin' more glamorous than telling people you work in garbage.
Mob Lackey (fearful for his life): Uh... yeah, yeah, great idea boss!

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[db32]

Aside from the obvious of trusted removal of things like stained rugs and strangely heavy "empty" barrels... There is also an incredible intelligence gathering piece. You know...the same reason that the authorities like digging through your trash for evidence and criminals like digging through your trash for useful information.

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's big business and it's tied into communal politics. Need I say more?

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Locke2005]

You gotta problem wid dat?

Failure to understand technology

[Locke2005]

In fact, Waste Management should have the demo in its possession, as it was transferred to the trash hauler's system in late 2005 and early 2006, according to SAP, which demanded in a May 14 filing that Waste Management turn it over. So, copying the software to a customer's computer automatically erases it from developer's computer? And now they want it back, 'cause that will automatically erase it from the customers computer? This dispute makes both sides look like morons, but looking like an idiot is going to have more more impact on SAP's business than on Waste Management's bottom line. No one expects a garbage man to be an IT expert. But if a software developer can't keep a copy of everything they give to a customer, how the hell can they be expected to maintain the software they distribute?

No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[bfwebster]

I'm not a lawyer, but..

Most software licensing agreements contain limitations of liability and monetary damages, usually limited to the amount paid by the customer. However, if the customer can demonstrate fraud, the customer has a chance to 'break' those limitation and go after additional damages (lost profits, cost of replacement, etc.). So if the demo exists and if it shows capabilities not found in the actual SAP implementation, WM might be able to use it to prove fraud -- assuming that the judge doesn't simply rule the demo as being "sales puffery" (i.e., salespersons are allowed a certain legal leeway in extolling the virtues of the product they're trying to sell).

Should be interesting. ..bruce..

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[LaRoach]

Waste Management was caught cooking the books ala Enron, Worldcom, etc: http://www.sec.gov/news/headlines/wastemgmt6.htm

SAP again?

[someyob]

I would hazard the vast majority of us have first hand knowledge of an SAP based enterprise system project gone amok (as I have). Some interesting ideas here http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/sap-watch/what%E2%80%99s-the-real-trend-in-failed-sap-projects/. I wouldn't necessarily blame the users all the time; in our case, it seems a combination of ill defined requirements, crazily feature rich software and consultants not unhappy when things drag out.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Epi-man]

Interesting, the link is for events from 1992-97, against former top officers, and is itself from 2002. Do you think the same people are still in charge? The corporation itself isn't necessarily sleezy, those who were running it were sleezy. It is entirely possible the "culture of corruption" still exists at the company, but I don't think this link really provides much evidence of that.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Clandestine_Blaze]

Any sofware company that cannot find a copy of something they produced for a customer is INCOMPETENT!

This article talks about a Pre-Sale demo, which is usually where all of the problems occur. Most proof of concept demos done by sales consultants promise the world just to get the client to buy, then scope is reduced significantly. While the majority of sales consultants have some technical background, proof-of-concepts rarely take business flow into account, and generally show what the product can do out of the box.

This is why a lot of technical guys refer to the sales side as "the dark side" - in reference to how often the tech folks get thrown under the bus when the customer goes "Well your sales guy promised xyz to us, and you're only giving us x!"

There's no excuse for that.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[LaRoach]

Hence the word "was" in the post...

Into the round file

[Todd Knarr]

My guess at what happened: once SAP was done with the demo and left a copy with the customer, whoever was responsible for putting it together cleaned it up. It wasn't needed anymore, and document retention policies and the need to clean up file clutter both dictate it goes. On the WMI side, the techie who got the demo filed it away. It's not like a demo mock-up's going to help a developer. And again, between document retention policies and the general need to get rid of useless junk cluttering up the directories, it got deleted. And then months after that, the lawyers come around looking for it and it's not there.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons I don't like document retention policies that're designed to make sure things get deleted/destroyed. Sure they may get rid of evidence the other guy could use against you, but at the same time they get rid of evidence you could use to support your case if you end up in court. I normally consider all vendor communications to be "retain indefinitely", likewise all product documentation, specifications, etc.. At some point you will need to be able to look one of their salespeople in the eye and say "Yes, you did promise that and I've got the letter from you to prove it.".

Re:i had it

[RichardJenkins]

A classic Indiana Jones reference highlighting the folly of choosing something based on how shiny it is get moderated as troll whilst I can get modded insightful for spouting the first nonsensical bs that comes to mind? What's the world coming to!

Re:Enterprise Software

[PitaBred]

Yes, but technical people have consciences and morals, which means they wouldn't do very well in management.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[slashtivus]

Enterprise Resource Planning. It's fancy scheduling software.

Like a bad dream come true

[Archfeld]

These 2 companies deserve each other like few in the world do... SAP sales folks ARE the KINGS of VAPO-Ware. They will promise ANYTHING in the "next release" and then re-assign any person responsible for making any claims of any type, stating that they are unavailable at this time. WM is one of the lowest of the low and has been tied to corruption and the MOB in more states than I can count on 2 hands. I am just sitting back hoping they will do each other in :D

ob joke

[g2devi]

Upon dying, Bill Gates went to final judgement.

St. Peter said to his, "Now Bill, you have done some good things, and you have done some bad things. It has been decided to let you decide where you want to go".

So, Bill takes a look at hell and sees these beautiful women running around, in 30 degree Celsius temperature, on beautiful beaches.

Then he took a look at heaven and it was nice, you know harps and singing and worship and stuff like that.

So he said to St. Peter that he would like to go to hell.

About a week later, St. Peter went down to hell to check on Bill. There he saw him, neck deep in molten sulfur, being whipped by demons.

He said to St. Peter, "What happened to all the beautiful women, and the beaches and the 30 degree Celsius temperature?"

Peter replied, "That was just demo."

I'm glad I'm not alone

[sxltrex]

I too work at a multi-billion $ per year company, and our executives also bought the SAP sales pitch hook, line, & sinker. What a stinking pile of crap. I have never seen a worse user interface. The saddest part is, no-one knows of a successful implementation, yet all of the executives who buy this shit think "my company will be the first!" They also think paying hundreds of millions of dollars to firms like Deloitte will fix everything. Dumbasses.

One of my co-workers invented SAP: The Board Game. Every card says "Lose a Turn."

SAP the Board Game

[sxltrex]

SAP: The Board Game.

Every card says "Lose a Turn."

Re:i had it

[Koiu Lpoi]

You bastard. You made me click "parent" just to see what you were replying to.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[ikkonoishi]

Yeah sure. Here

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[jsebrech]

It means "crappy software with a big name so we can ask you for a big pricetag". How they got it to spell out ERP I'll never know.