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Internet Tax Approved By Louisiana House
Stinky Litter Box writes "WWL-TV in New Orleans reports that the Louisiana House voted 81-9 on Thursday to propose that a '15-cent monthly surcharge should be levied on Internet access across Louisiana to fight online criminal activity.' Can you say 'slippery slope?' The good news is that Gov. Jindal opposes such a tax. Full disclosure: I grew up in south Louisiana and worked for WWL-TV in the late '70s."
Rep. Mack "Bodi" White, R-Denham Springs, said he sponsored the bill for Attorney General Buddy Caldwell, to raise money to finance a division in Caldwell's office that investigates Internet crimes, particularly online sex crimes against children.
I agree that sex crime against children are very very bad but I think that if you look at the scope and size of the problems that plague the internet and ranked them in order, you'd find many other things precede sex crimes against children. Like Internet Fraud and Identity Theft. How much money do people lose to things like that? Hint: A lot.
I'm sick and tired of thinking of the children, let's think about everybody for a while. The lil' bastards don't even pay taxes and they're the motivation behind 50% of the legislation in this country.
My work here is dung.
This surcharge is $1.70 per year. That's not that much.
I've been to Louisiana. They could definitely use a little extra cash in their coffers for education if their uneducated, violent, and poor urban populace is any indication. Also, their roads are pretty bad, so extra money coming in could allow extra funds to go towards improving that.
Thank goodness legislatures have the discipline to only use funds for the reason they gave in the justification.
I don't live in Louisiana (or the US), but I'd be quite cross if they started charging me because other people like to watch images of naked kids.
Bring up an emotionally charged topic like children's protection and you can enact any half-baked political action. They killed Socrates this way, they can sure as hell ratchet down internet rights this way.
mmmm...forbidden donut
I wouldn't say that having Gov. Bobby Jindal on our side is necessarily "good news."
---don't make me break out my red pen.
I'm sick and tired of thinking of the children, let's think about everybody for a while.
So you're saying that your anti-children? :-P
I agree that sex crime against children are very very bad but I think that if you look at the scope and size of the problems that plague the internet and ranked them in order, you'd find many other things precede sex crimes against children. Like Internet Fraud and Identity Theft. How much money do people lose to things like that? Hint: A lot.
I dislike the term "Internet Fraud". Fraud is fraud, whether it was conducted on eBay or at the local flea market.
That aside, I think you're saying that if you cut down on other crimes conducted online, sex crimes conducted online will drop as a matter of course. I tend to agree.
.
My blog
wtf did i just read :(
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
News flash: a 15-cents-a-month tax will not deter criminals.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Feel an itch? You just got fucked.
Heck, as long as you have another disclaimer, you should also say that you are not intelligent.
FTFA - "I don't think we should start instituting a revenue stream for every criminal element that's out there," Maybe the Mayans were right about 2012.
Look at all the surcharges you pay on your telephone bill. I think the federal rural phone tax lasted until something like 1999?
This is a non-story. The big story where states are going to soak people for taxes is when Congress allows them to do sales tax on every single purchase. It's coming.
(and maybe a federal one, too)
I think those who commit the crime should pay. If you'd tax the child porn, you'd even get a nice feedback loop. When your anti-childporn measures (uhm.. discount coupons to stores that sell childrens clothes?) are working well enough, your funds get cut, If it picks up again, boom! Automatic funding!
From the summary:
Can you say 'slippery slope?'
Can you say 'boy who cried wolf'?
When we complain about $1.80 per year we not only distract attention from real issues, but we also discredit any future complaints we might have. What kind of person overlooks the massive amount of money we ship off to the likes of China and Saudi Arabia but can't tolerate even the smallest trickle of cash to our own government?
YHBT. HTH. HAND.
My blog
From the summary: "Full disclosure: I grew up in south Louisiana and worked for WWL-TV in the late '70s."
OK, well...before I post, I should disclose some things too.
I've said the word "Louisiana" 11,547 times in my life. I've never been there, but I hear they have some weird tax on the Intertubes.
It's just another tax on something that shouldn't be taxed... We already get taxed on ramen noodles, water, gasoline, cheeseburgers, cable television, telephones, and almost everything else.
If you're worried about a slippery slope, please glance downward at the icy incline and the skates on your feet.
It is kinda stupid to justify as way to pay for fighting "online crime". Why don't they levy an additional tax on retail sales and call it the "shoplifter arrest and incarceration tax".
Of course it's tough to vote against "protecting the children," but if this expenditure is necessary it should take a place in line with every other legitimate need and wait for its share of the income tax. Special interests are going to be lined up around the block to try this one in La.
How does this affect people who want to offer free Wi-Fi?
http://outcampaign.org/
What about the billions we already gave to that incompetent Nagan and his crooked police force?
They killed Socrates this way, they can sure as hell ratchet down internet rights this way.
The Louisiana House Legislature killed Socrates? That's terrible.
So Louisiana only has 9 Democrats?
There are 2 major parties in most of the US. Does your hate apply to those Democrats too and by natural extension of your hate of one stupid Republican to "those guys" to all Democrats as well?
As they say, once a cocksucker, always a cocksucker. We just need to find one Democrat in the Louisiana House that voted for this...
BTW, I believe the governor of Louisiana is still Bobby Jindal, a Republican. Just think, the safeguards of Louisana, protected by a Republican. What's that make your comment now? Pro-Obama?
I tend to agree with you there, there are so many more prominent situations across the board we could defer our resources to, however, children should not be completely put off to the side, everything is parallel, so to is the p0rn on the web...if you turn away for 2 seconds you fall so far behind playing catch up, you won't be able to catch them properly for another few years after you start again....
I believe there should be an overall committee, which has 3 sub division, fraud/identity theft, child p0rn, and virus/worm/spam divisions. These would each have there own budgets decreed by higher up management, and also
correlating to their importance to one another, but sharing tactics and technologies to better make use of resources.
Also, just because we spend 1 billion dollars on child p0rn to catch those implicated, does not mean we will get more caught, it just means the chances should be greater. It all depends on how the money is spent and where, I think before giving any more money to any of these organizations, we should see where they will spend the money , sort of like a business plan, open for review by a few high class security experts, that can see the big picture....sometimes a lot of the people in these orgs, don't really know the firs thing about technology advances, even though they mean well.
Either legislators are weak, corrupt, or ignorant, or legislative government is a failure because it is inherently flawed. Pick from those two or shut up. There is no "slippery slope".
Anti-children? Not possible. Unattended children make great soup stock!!
How would this work for public wifi? Would you get charged an extra 15 cents on your tab when you pick up your coffee? What about waiting at the airport, would that be an extra 15 cents on your flight?
after all, Louisiana has no other major pressing issues that might require some financial attention, such as finding homes for all the people displaced by Katrina. Before they spend the money on protecting children from the evil Internet, maybe they should spend some effort on protecting children from the evil collapsing infrastructure.
While you are worry about US$ 0.15/mo. We in Brazil need to worry about 40%, that's what we pay in taxes for any kind of telecomunication service. I wish I could pay US$ 0.15 in taxes.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
Do they similarly tax photographs? How about telephone service? I imagine both are used for sex crimes against children.
I have to disagree. From the perspective of law enforcement, fighting Internet crime requires a lot of extra technical expertise, and that means hiring additional people with extra training. If anything, internet crime is more like what the FBI and Secret Service have traditionally investigated.
So you're saying that your anti-children?
His anti-children what?
On a similar note, I accidentally a bottle of coke. Is that bad?
They killed Socrates this way, they can sure as hell ratchet down internet rights this way.
The Louisiana House Legislature killed Socrates? That's terrible.
I wouldn't be surprised, in 2001 (yes, within this millennium) they branded Darwin a racist with the following flawless logic:
Be it resolved that the Legislature of Louisiana does hereby deplore all instances and ideologies of racism, and does hereby reject the core concepts of Darwinist ideology that certain races and classes of humans are inherently superior to others.
Yeah, they actually brought out this gem (page 2 line 1):
WHEREAS, Adolf Hitler and others have exploited the racist views of Darwin and those he influenced, such as German zoologist Ernst Haekel, to justify the annihilation of millions of purportedly racially inferior individuals.
Who knows where they'll set their sights next to appease their God? I certainly wouldn't want to be in their way lest I be likened to Adolf Hitler.
My work here is dung.
In case anyone is missing the irony, that line was actually uttered by a Democrat. Here's what a Republican had to say:
"As the anti-tax man, I can't think of a better fee, tax that we can impose ... I don't know a better use for 15 cents"
He's anti-tax except when he's not.
15-cent monthly surcharge should be levied on Internet access across Louisiana to fight online criminal activity
Only here is how it really works. If you're spending $10 million, from the general fund, on X and now you have an extra $10 million specifically for X all that does is move the original $10 million back to the general fund. You don't actually have to spend any more money on X but you've just increased your tax base. You could even wait a year or so to move the original money back in the budget so as not to raise alarms.
But, when they did it, did they pronounce it sau-kra-teez? Or Soe-kraets?
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
If the internet is just a large network, can't we just form another one? If enough people are involved then it'll be a usefull tool... which means it'll be connected to the internet by somebody.. which means you'll have subverted the tax and decentralized it back to how it should be. Bonus points for ending up with free internet access.
Do they similarly tax photographs?
I would tax holiday snaps!
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
This reminds me, somehow, of Gudrun Schymann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudrun_Schyman), a Swedish politician who proposed a special "man tax". This tax would be levied on all men, for their collective responsability for the physical abuse some women have to put up with from some men. When someone opined that since all men would have to pay this tax, beating your wife/girlfriend cannot be illegal, she shut up very fast and has not raised the subject since!
As for the issue at hand, why should internet users be singled out for extra taxes? I have not yet heard of any car owners having to pay an extra tax to fund a police branch concerned with car theft. (At least here in Sweden a part of your vehicle taxes are used to provide the roads, the rest disappears into that black hole that is the Government budget, no mention of a special car theft police squad.) Or home owners having to pay a special tax to have a police force that takes care of home burglaries.
Why is internet any different? Is it that the crimes can be spread over so many jurisdictions that makes it different? Or is it that the politicians are so stupid? I know what my answer is...
Must have imported the hemlock.
HOW did they explain the whole concept of slavery for the... 10,000 years BEFORE Darwin then?
Defective Logic
Or maybe Snoc-ra-teez?
Who cares? There's so many additional fees on my phone bill that I wouldn't notice a fifteen-cent DSL tax. It's a lot less than the other little governmental add-ons.
Of course, what I'd like to see done with it is to help expand broadband access. The problem with a state tax to address internet ills is that the internet is so much bigger than any state, or even any country.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
There should also be a 15 cent tax on cellphones to fight crimes organised via cellphones, also a 15 cent tax on roads to fight vehicular crime, and a 15 cent tax on water for illegal cult kool-aid manufacture. Not to mention a 15 cent tax on sunlight which is used in the illicit manufacture of marijuana.
Does Louisiana currently tax the sale of firearms and ammunition for the specific purpose of paying for anti-gun violence enforcement?
I wouldn't be surprised, in 2001 (yes, within this millennium) they branded Darwin a racist with the following flawless logic ...
Huey Long, one of the more famous governors of the Great State of Louisiana, once said "One of these days the people of Louisiana are going to get good government and they aren't going to like it."
Damn Louisiana for making me side with Jindal! Damn them all!
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
I don't see this as any different than any other tax. They tax cigarrettes to pay for health care, they tax gas to pay for roads. The whole "for the children" is just a political ploy and everyone knows it. I'm not saying that I approve or dissaprove of it, I'm simply saying that this isn't the huge slippery slope everyone thinks it is.
wtf did i just read :(
You read that whole thing?
Masochist.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Serves you right for voting Coroprationist Red!
First, it is spelled "Corporation". Second, I have a feeling you mean Republicans. In which case, I point out to you, the Governor who is threatening to veto the internet tax is also a Republican or a "Coroprationist(sic) Red" as you so put it.
Disclaimer: I'm not American.
1. I can tell. 2. We're very thankful you're not.
Well, I have heard it put forth in the past, that the keys to the Constitution of the US are "terrorists" and "child pr0n".
With either of those two, you can run roughshod over the Constitution.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Because the the Nazi's notion of "races and classes" primarily meant "Jews, Gypsies, the mentally retarded, and Communists"; it did also include "Negroes", but the Nazis didn't make a big deal of that because Germany's black population in the 1930's was approximately zero.
Since the Nazis didn't make a big deal out of "Negro inferiority" it is easy for backwards-ass southern fucks to conveniently disregard that part of Nazi thinking, as that would conflict with their holdover slave owner's belief that blacks aren't human.
I think they should tax candy and nondescript vans with mirrored windows.
Between this and the Congressional idea of a VAT tax, don't folks "get it" that it's never enough with these guys?
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Flamebait? Wow, looks like Republicans have mod points. Of course, you could have as easily said "Coroprationist blue", because the Democrats are just as much in the pockets of the corporations as the Republicans. When you have only two viable parties and it's legal to donate to both candidates in any election, and you don't even have to be eligible to vote for them, your vote doesn't mean very much. What would you expect?
Free Martian Whores!
We don't seem to have a lot of molested children running about where I live. It seems like a fairly rare problem and in most cases that we do hear about it is a family member or live in boy friend that does the bad deed.
Frankly I can't see society spending much money on such an issue. I am aware that we have a witch hunt for sexual offenders. There is a city near my town that has all of its convicted sex offenders living under a bridge. That is the only spot in that city where it is legal for a released sex offender to live. Insanity is not the sole property of the mentally ill.
wtf did i just read :(
You read that whole thing?
Masochist.
I read about four lines in. I'm afraid to go any further...
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
does hereby reject the core concepts of Darwinist ideology that certain races and classes of humans are inherently superior to others.
Did they condemn the bible as racist for claiming the jewish were the chosen race of God? That sounds inherently supieror to me. /sarcasm
Man, this is unbelievable! Totally amazing!
Bobby Jindal is on the right side of an issue! 8O
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
Actually yes...at least on the phone thing, most everywhere taxes phone service. At least, according to any bill I've ever had for a phone, landline or cell.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"The lil' bastards don't even pay taxes"
Deficit spending means we will bill today's children tomorrow, for things we enjoy today but won't pay for ourselves. Each of those "non-payers" owes about $30,000 the day they are born.
Yeah, they actually brought out this gem (page 2 line 1):
WHEREAS, Adolf Hitler and others have exploited the racist views of Darwin and those he influenced, such as German zoologist Ernst Haekel, to justify the annihilation of millions of purportedly racially inferior individuals.
Wow, I've never heard of a State Godwin-ing a law!
1. Louisiana is a Republican state 6-1. If your political representitives can't agree on the best policy for a given situation, they shouldn't be in power. Why do you think we (English) are requesting a General Election?
2. Typographical error. Please excuse my lack of proof-reading. This is, after all, the internet. It's par for the course.
3. I am far more thankful that I am not American than you are.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
There are more than two parties. The fact that you (Americans) only vote for one of those two doesn't mean that the others don't exist.
I see your point though, and it validates mine. You should vote outside of your bi-partisan system. It's not a wasted vote if everyone else realises this.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Let's say I run a wireless ISP with locations all along the Mississippi side of the river. I just happen to have large antennas pointed across the river at N'awlins. Officially, I am not providing internet service to Louisiana. Unofficially, I don't bother to check the addresses of any of my customers - as long as they have a credit card, they get in...
Well, I have heard it put forth in the past, that the keys to the Constitution of the US are "terrorists" and "child pr0n".
It is more straightforward than that. Fear is the key to the Constitution.
IANYL, IANAL, TINLA, IANAMD, IANAP,
Wait. So you are saying they won this argument, in the face of Godwin's law? Wow... Louisianan must be the land of unicorns, magical leopluradons and candy mountain!
Intelligence is knowing that both the Republicans and Democrats fit the corporationist demographic.
Wisdom is knowing that there are more than those two parties.
Please, help your countrymen become more wise.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
I'm surprised there hasn't been much talk on /. about the proposed national sales tax that the congresscritters have been tossing about.
It sounds interesting a VAT...but, I've not heard if it is on TOP of current taxes...or if it would replace the income tax?
My...they are all sure trying to get creative with taxes these days aren't then? Internet tax? VAT?
Strange that with raising taxes and all so far....revenues to the govt. are going down pretty quick. Something isn't working, eh?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
That's jive. As any fool know, the earth be less than 10,000 years old.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
HOW did they explain the whole concept of slavery for the... 10,000 years BEFORE Darwin then?
Hey, that cotton wasn't going to pick itself....
Hi, I'm Chris Hansen. I'm here to collect your taxes.
As a LA native, it a crying shame that this is one of the measures the LA legislature is seeking to make up for state budget cuts while they sought to increase their salaries at the onset of the legislative session. http://www.la-par.org/PAR%20News%20Files/shreveporttimes_06.13.08.pdf I work at LSU and already dealing with the budget cuts from the state and now I am told they also want to tax me?! This is complete bullshit.
Still bitter from us kicking your ass a few hundred years ago?
"On a similar note, I accidentally a bottle of coke. Is that bad?"
That would depend on "what" or "where" it accidentallied.
I love word-smithing :P
-Reed
We don't need to funnel billions of American taxpayer dollars to European welfare like GM did. Glad the government closed GM quickly.
Stop the White Man New World Order.
New Economic Perspectives
How about a waste of time tax where legislators have to pay 1% of their income for every piece of legislation that they propose that get shot down or struck down in court?
You should vote outside of your bi-partisan system. It's not a wasted vote if everyone else realises this.
That's what I keep telling people. Unfortunately most people have bought the "wasted vote" lie hook, line and sinker. Last election I managed to successfully convince quite a few people that their ideal candidate was either Cynthia McKinney(G), Bob Barr(L), Ron Paul(L masquerading as R) or Dennis Kucinich(G or S masquerading as D). Some even said they plan on voting for such, but later told me that they didn't want their vote to be wasted. Many were convinced that a vote for McKinney was a vote for McCain and a vote for Barr was a vote for Obama. Therein lies the crux of the matter. People SEE the feedback loop that keeps our duopoly in power, but their response to it is to feed it further, as not to miss the bandwagon.
I myself ended up offering my vote up to the malignant gods of political maneuvering when I voted McKinney. I would rather have voted Kucinich, but I gave my vote to the Greens in order to strengthen a 3rd party. It wasn't all that bad though, as I believe I would have been pleased by a McKinney administration.
Which would you rather see happen:
A few people don't loose some money, or on less child gets raped?
The priority of which crimes to go after is not, nor should it be, based on the number of times it happens.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I urinate on the Stars and Stripes every July 4th.
(I'm kidding!)
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
"...particularly online sex crimes against children."
and FTA: ""I don't think that 15 cents per month is too much to ask for our children's protection," said Rep. Simone Champagne, D-Jeanerette. "
Think of the children!
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Explaining slavery is easy. "Do this for me, or I'll hurt you." You're talking about justifying it, which is usually conveniently overlooked.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
This argument seems to be trotted out more and more these days:
"I don't think that 15 cents per month is too much to ask for our children's protection," said Rep. Simone Champagne, D-Jeanerette.
I don't even know Simone, but I think I'd like to punch them in the face a few times.
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
The Louisiana House Legislature killed Socrates? That's terrible.
Socrates: Wow, this is the best drink I have ever had. What do you call these?
Louisiana House bartender: Hemlock Hurricane. Let me pour you another one...
"But this one goes to 11!"
You assume this sort of legislation came from a conservative, when in fact it came from a democrat(Broome). Now I'm a liberal myself (a non-democrat one), but most of these sort of radical anti racists policies come from this side of the political spectrum. I've always found it interesting that many liberal minded people accept evolution, which states that different groups within a species that are divided by some distance and do not get a chance to genetically intermix well gain different traits and abilities, but when this happened in humans (different races), they get all defensive and assert everyone is equal in terms of ability (or at least potential ability).
I dislike the term "Internet Fraud". Fraud is fraud, whether it was conducted on eBay or at the local flea market.
I agree totally.
It also a lot like "hate crimes". Crime is crime. The "law" in the country has gotten completely idiotic.
And just imagine what you could do if you put both keys in, and turned them at the same time!
"But this one goes to 11!"
HOW did they explain the whole concept of slavery for the... 10,000 years BEFORE Darwin then?
Perhaps because much of the history of slavery has not been race based. People have been sold as slaves for debt, and slaves have often been a prize of war, those wars often being fought over political boundaries rather than racial differences.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
I know that initial reactions tend to run along the lines of "There's no way they're going to tax my Internet access!", but let's give it some thought for a moment.
The Internet has largely become similar to a public utility or similar public accommodation. [I realize that IANAL and that such terms have specific legal meanings, but allow me to continue to present my case.] While we may not always like it, most jurisdictions have the authority to collect fees, levees, or taxes to support administrative costs associated with certain public accomodations or utilities: there are fees for curb and gutter, lighting, sewer, water, and road maintenance. "Wait", you say, "those are all items owned by the municipality. Municipalities don't own the data cabling or the ISPs (in most cases)." True, but agents of government do collect taxes, fees, and other surcharges pertaining to telecommunications, certain entertainment venues, and who knows how many other things.
In each of those cases (and yes, I acknowledge that many may argue that government does a poor job of what I will describe), the monies collected are used to provide various municipal or government services. In some cases, the collected funds may be used for services or things directly related to the surcharge or fee for which the monies were collected (e.g. curb and gutter improvements), but in other cases the fees are used to support other administrative functions within a municipality (e.g., filing costs, police services, fire services). If a city sees an uptick in citizen consumption of specific services tied to specific activities (e.g., the number of fire calls relating to backyard fire pits), it only makes sense that the fees associated with the activity (e.g., burning permit, residential fire permit) would increase to help defray any increased costs (e.g., adding members to the fire squad, purchasing additional brush-fire mitigation gear).
If, therefore, law enforcement agencies are finding more and more of their resources are being allocated to crimes or investigations that hinge on Internet usage, is it not reasonable for those agents of government to collect some minimal renumeration to defray their costs (e.g., investigators with the appropriate skils, computer forensic technologies)?
I'm not proposing suggesting that such a path is without danger. Logically, however, it does seem reasonable. My biggest concern would be that such government-imposed fees, taxes, and surcharges would grow to the level we see them in general telecommunications, or that they would be revised to be based on throughput used (data transfer volumes) rather than as a flat fee that applies to all users of the service. So, yes, it is a slippery slope, but not one without merit or one to be dismissed without much dialogue.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Next month we will be purposing a new TCP/IP packet tax but it's only 1 cent so don't worry just keep downloading those idol episodes...
I have many friends who hypothesize that states become more dysfunctional, the closer they get to Louisiana.
Have a look at a US map and see if you agree....
Believe it or not, their law is based on reality. There are racists that use the "science" of Darwin to justify their discrimination.
Most believers of theistic religions were chosen by god... which god just depends on which religion. Not all of them are racist as a result of this, although some may be. (By "some" I mean some individuals, not some religions.)
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Actually you're not cynical enough. Children are not the motivation, they're the excuse. Think of it as a soft terror-tactic: pay us $0.15 per month, or little Timmy will become the victim of online predators! EVERYBODY PANIC! It's basic social engineering: If you can panic people, make them give in to fear, their higher brain functions turn off; then you've GOT them.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
The probability approaches 1... so basically, it was only a matter of time.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
and have it go into education.
The more you educate a society, the fewer crimes that occur. Also has the nice benefit of having an area with more businesses and a larger talent pool.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The words "seem" and "that we do hear about" should be a clue to the flaw in your logic.
I don't think there should be a knee-jerk reaction any time someone mentions the topic, but it's nevertheless more serious than you probably realise.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Did you just verb accidentally?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
"As any fool know,"
oh, how so true.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
author: "Can you say 'slippery slope?'" a baby mouse doesn't necessarily grow into an elephant I am opposed to taxes, especially on internet access, but i am also opposed to that tired old "argument"
Just because everybody and his dog taxes phone service doesn't mean it's earmarked to combat cyber-crime.
"Similarly" was meant in that sense.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Isn't that the magical mystical "world go away" spell?
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
"Slippery slope" is a technical term that picks out a particular logical fallacy. As is the case here, people seem to think naming this kind of argument lends it credibility. I'm not sure how this came to be, after all, the name picks out an argument that has been identified as faulty. And it is certainly the case that Timothy's implied conclusion is fallacious in this way: there is no reason to suppose that because a 15-cent tax on internet usage is now being imposed that more taxation is to follow.
You mean Gov. Piyush Amrit Jindal? I find it interesting that the man tries so hard to distance himself from his heritage but still retains his Indian name as his legal name.
So what's the criticism here? That's he's too Western or that he's not Western enough? So his legal name is the same as the one he was born with. Wow. How unusual. I mean, nobody does that, right?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
The problem is, we do hear about damned near every case. It's a numbers game. There's a lot of parents, or friends of parents out there. Those people want to know about threats to the kids. Thus, if you run a story involving danger to kids, you get the numbers. So every case that comes up gets publicity, even if it's on the other side of the country.
Remember, the majority of recent studies show that a) the number of incidents involving children is decreasing, and b) they're more likely to be kidnapped/abused by someone they know (parent, teacher, relative, etc) than a random stranger.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
I'd rather see the child getting raped... because I'd kill the person I caught doing it.
Obviously it would be ideal if I discovered it in time to prevent it, but either way, one dead child molester (captcha: "reoccur").
But these taxes are typically allocated to:
Slavery was typically little more then a conquered nation doing the bidding of the conquerors. Even the slaves of colonial America were conquered tribes and the descendants of them. Once a person was a slave, they were considered property and not a citizen with citizenship rights and were treated as such. This treatment was more or less to enforce or reinforce their lack of freedoms in the society. It was a spoil of war, even if the war consisted of sending an overwhelming forces or raiding parties to round people up.
In fact, that's how the term Nigger came into play. Near the end of Slavery shipments to the US, most of the tribes in Africa along the slave coast had been captured and the rest fled into the interior portions of the African Jungle where Europeans feared entering. There was the Niger river that blocked a lot of their paths and they would find tribes on either side of it. Anyways, the Niger river which has a long speculation on the name origin the meant "river of rivers" rather then the french word for "black and night". But as property usually sold unseen to overseas buyers, slave being shipped needed several things. A lineage to prove their worth and ability to act as slaves, some types of slaves refused to cooperate and usually brought less money while the ones that resisted the longest and made it the deepest into the jungle were typically the strongest and most desirable, so the fact they were from the Niger river area was a plus. This is much like the lineage in animals and so on where a purebred and documents dog or horse or cattle or whatever commands more money then the same without the documentation. Now another practice which is still in use today was to have a bill of lading that included both the origin of the property and the destination. In keeping with the Lineage, Niger was used as the origin so traders in the Americas wouldn't become suspect of the lineage. Anyways, it has been determined that the first or one of the first written use of the term "Nigger" was from a shipping clerk in Maryland and the term was most likely in use before that by the phonetically speaking southerners who distinguished between domestic slaves and imports. This also explains the connection of skin color to race and why racist concentrated more on bloodline then color of skin.
Looks like I went way past your topic but slavery has typically been a spoil of war. Even the slavery from Africa brought to the Americas was tribal and kingdom warfare (in Africa) that got people classified as property and sold as slaves.
I get taxed on my phone. I get taxed on my energy bill. I get taxed on my trash bill. These range from about $5 a month to less than $1. I don't think I get taxed on my internet service, but I find this concept so unremarkable that I went around looking for my latest bill to check. (Couldn't find it...)
Bottom line: City, county, state, and federal taxes are levied on many forms of communication. These taxes are relatively low and I don't think we should freak out about them.
Also the fact that the summary says anything good about Gov. Jindal tells you something about the submitter's priorities. Allow me to summarize what I know about Mr. Jindal:
So, when anybody says "it's a good thing Bobby Jindal..." I'm sorry, but I have to immediately discount that person as an idiot. I read my fair share about politics, and everything this guy does seems to have the taint of a slimy, crappy politician of the worst variety. And it never strikes me of having any sincerity, at all.
Every reported case, perhaps. How many aren't ever discovered?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
It's much different from a hate crime. A hate crime is simply saying that if hate was your motivation, your in more trouble then all those who just wasn't to kill, murder, rape, or whatever else they did to cause the crime to happen. An internet crime actually describes the differences and limitations in investigation and enforcement criteria.
An internet crime can extend beyond the jurisdictional limits of the enforcement agency which requires special and specific coordination and cooperation from other jurisdictions which may even be outside the country. Also an internet crime may require the collection of evidence only present in digital forms which created an entirely new skill set for investigators. It may be that investigators will not even get the attention of extraterritoriality partners without a certain levels of evidence pointing to a crime originating or taking place there.
Without the internet, the perpetrators needed to be present to some extend unless it was mail or wire fraud and there was a clearer record of transactions. Internet crimes is distinguishing the investigation needed to put remote offenders into a legal classification to ensure charges will apply. Hate crimes is little more then what was he thinking when committing the crime. I hope those differences can be seen well enough to not confuse the two and my explanation shows enough of them to distinguish the special needs of it.
That being said, I'm not for this tax and think it should just be a qualification requirement that evolves with law enforcement of any given area. I see this just like being able to hit your target evolved from police carrying guns without training or having to qualify. It's like changes in fitness requirements. I don't remember any special taxes to ensure the cops can hit what they are aiming at with reasonable accuracy or that they could run a certain distance or lift so much weight or anything.
If it's any consolation, the actual passed version of the resolution removed all references to Darwin and just spoke out against racism in general (and Hitler, for whatever reason): http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_docs/01RS/CVT5/OUT/0000ITPJ.PDF Disclosure: I currently work for an office that monitors the LA legislature, and I managed to miss the Internet Tax bill FTFA.
Children are dangerous. There are signs everywhere that say "Keep out of the reach of children". There must be a reason for these signs.
I wouldn't be surprised, in 2001 (yes, within this millennium) they branded Darwin a racist [state.la.us] with the following flawless logic
That's great!
A state that harbored the KKK and remains the national hot bed of racism to this day. ROFLMAO
National center of Cross burning == Louisana
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
A lot of people forget that during the 1500s and 1600s, there were a lot of white-colored slaves. The practice of enslaving whites was gradually replaced with black slavery during the 1700s, but if you are a white person it's entirely possible you have slavery in your background.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Very well explained. Much I didn't know
Mod parent up Informative
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
Stop confusing the facts with real facts!
The Louisiana House Legislature killed Socrates? That's terrible.
I wouldn't be surprised, in 2001 (yes, within this millennium) they branded Darwin a racist [state.la.us] with the following flawless logic:
So because they used terrible logic, you wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they had gone back in time to kill Socrates?
Are you admitting you killed Socrates?
>>>We don't seem to have a lot of molested children running about where I live.
Me neither. And on the net I have not seen one case of child porn. Not one. If this is such an insidious problem, how come I haven't stumbled across it??? Makes no sense. I must conclude the problem is virtually non-existent.
What I have seen is photos of nudist families - mom, dad, and kids on a beach. What these photos all have in common is that they are smiling. I don't see any molestation here either, and yet cops are running-around arresting the people in those photos.
Stupid Puritan Americans - afraid of their own bodies.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
You are an asshole. kids are the future of our world. Children cant pay taxes. I know you dont have kids saying something like that. WHAT A DICK YOU ARE!!!
I thought this kind of tax was prevented by federal legislation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Tax_Nondiscrimination_Act
Somalia is the product of decades of outside influences attempting to set up various conflicting government, along with a massive degree of culturally-ingrained tribalism.
Somalia is a dense mass of petty tribal governments, each holding absolute power over their limited domains, each at war with all the others, and none having the slightest respect for the personal and property rights of the individuals under their rule, much less those with whom they are at war. Nothing could be further from the libertarian ideal.
To have a libertarian society it is not sufficient to merely lack a strong central government; aggression itself must not be tolerated. The libertarian objection to government is in truth an objection to aggression itself, of which government is merely the most prominent form. Somalia lacks a central government--despite various outside nations, including the U.S., further destabilizing the region by repeatedly attempting to impose one--but in its place there exist a multitude of regional governments, among other criminal organizations, bent on practicing aggression against the Somalian people. The essence of the problem is a culture which grants these tribal leaders unquestioned authority. (This is also why central government fail to take root there: the local culture has no place for them.)
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
Darwin was a racist. Just because you believe in micro + macro evolution (well I do, and because you are defending Darwin you probably do too), doesn't mean its founded wasn't flawed.
I promise, just google it and you'll find quotes like this:
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ⦠will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. [2]
[2] The decent of man, Charles Darwin
Darwin's logic was used and abused by many to continue racist beliefs and actions. The man was a scientist with a great idea; not a saint.
Be careful. Children are fattening, and they can raise your blood pressure.
Strong with the troll force you are or the parent just explained your response. Totally agree with parent. Anger is the first response to a dangerous situation when you have perceived power over the outcome. Make some one turn off their reasoning and you'll get an answer that is two parts insult and one part restatement of the original point distorted.
"Think of the children!" is one of the classics of the internet for a reason I guess.
One of the more important reasons for the shift from white and black slaves stems of a US based British colony ran mostly by slaves in which the slaves, both white and black banded together for a slave rebellion in an attempt to escape to Spanish Florida where free colonies already existed. They killed a about 25 free whites in their attempt who were outnumbered enormously by slaves in the area at the time. They also burned several buildings and amassed a decent sized following but the rebellion was put down.
In 1740, 2 years after that Stono Rebellion the South Carolina legislature (mostly a corporate board because of the colony situation) passed the Negro Act of 1740 in attempts to control the slaves. It provided protections against harsh working conditions and so on that would create a rebellious situation in the first place but was hard to enforce because a slave couldn't testify against a free man. One of the more influential parts of the Negro act was that it regulated manumissions which is more or less a fancy term for a slave owner granting freedom to their slaves. One of these regulations came to be a divide and conquer strategy in which 1 white slave to every 10 black slaves were required but black slave could never be anything more then a slave where the whites could regain their full citizenship.
This provided a situation where the white slaves would (were encouraged to) report suspected rebellion plots in hopes of gaining their freedom and stopped the entire slave groups from banding together again. This also led to the downfall of white slaves as other restrictions such as importation of new slaves were discouraged/banned and populations were breed from existing stock. A big issue here is corruption of blood, the blacks because of the manumissions laws would always be slaves, including their children where the children of the whites would/could be free people woth full citizenship rights (*another incentive to not rebel and report conspiracies).
This also created the concept of classes among the slaves in which the black slaves were at the bottom by default. This had to do with white slaves appearing smarter because they could already speak the language and mostly read and/or write. Once white slaves fell to the side, the class differences sort of remained which was part of the prejudices throughout early America. Although with the end of the civil war, freed slaves being dumped onto the populations and taking white jobs, and the north mandating the whites succeed power to the freed slaves made the system of racism far more worse then what this was about before then, but slaves weren't really treated with respect either.
The history of racism in the US is deeply tied to slavery and perhap unique to the US because a lot of the laws like the Negro act wasn't enacted in other countries. Combine that with slaves in other countries either finding support from manumissions and former slaves already living and integrating in the other areas or they simply wanted to go home, were in the US, they attempted to create a local stock in which they were already home so to speak and you can see some issues directly connected to slavery that fueled the hate and resentment on both sides.
More reason to just borrow your neighbors wifi,eh?
I didn't see anything in there about slavery, but to answer your question, slavery was never about racism until during and after the black slavery period of North America. Slavery does not necessarily follow racism, or vice versa.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I agree. FDR preached "freedom from fear and freedom from want". Because the people chose these over the Constitution, they got the National Recovery Act, Civilian Conservation Corps, 90% tax rates on income over $250,000, concentration camps for Japanese citizens, and general suspension of their property and free speech rights during WWII.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
i don't know about that. Hitler took pretty strong offense at the widely publicized participation and victories of Jesse Owens in their 1936 Olympics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Owens
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
You overlook one important thing in your exposition. The U.S. government was desegregated when Woodrow Wilson took office, he re-segregated it. There is a significant possibility that if it had not been for Woodrow Wilson, the 60's civil rights movement would have been unnecessary (or would have taken place in the 20's).
If Woodrow Wilson had not re-segregated the Army (and the rest of the military), whites and blacks would have served side by side in WWI. This would have exposed a lot of men to people of the other race in circumstances where what a person does far outweighs who they are.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
This story is tagged "democrats". But the story says:
That "R-" means the sponsor is a Republican, for a Republican Attorney General. All over the story it's got Democrats opposing it on an anti-tax basis. As for Jindal, a Republican who therefore wants to be a cop without paying for it:
This story might say something about Republicans. It doesn't at all say anything about "Democrats". Except that there's nothing a Republican tagger won't try to blame on Democrats, even when it's Republicans doing it.
--
make install -not war
They must have meant "to fight online activity"
The exception tests the rule.
Also, while Jewish and communist conspiracies were trotted out to explain the German people's problems post WW-I, no one -- not even the craziest -- could make an argument that it was the Negroes fault.
Instead of charging everyone $0.15 per month to protect children, why not charge $15 per month to let the pedos abuse children. I think that's better than someone without kids and no intention of having kids to pay to ease some dimwitted parent's fears.
Deficit spending means we will bill today's children tomorrow,
Not deficit spending. If the Fair Tax gets enacted, the little bastards WILL be paying taxes on every penny of their allowance that they spend, at the same rate as every other person in the US. At something like 37%.
That's fair. Right.
"The measure would raise $2.4 million a year for Caldwell's department, according to a financial analysis." I am also a Louisiana native, and a lot of us know that if Louisiana politicians are pushing for something, then it means that they'll benefit from it in some way. One guy even proposed a tax incentive for people who have children in private schools because he felt that private schooling was a tad too expensive for him. And about the time that Governor Jindal was elected, they were trying to give themselves another raise. I honestly thought that Jindal would be a bitch to the politicians, and he seemed like it at first, but he came around. I don't agree with him on social issues, but I am glad that he opposes this. I'm willing to bet that at least some of that $2.4M will not go towards the department.
QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
dammit, mismod, commenting to correct
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A lot of people forget that during the 1500s and 1600s, there were a lot of white-colored slaves. The practice of enslaving whites was gradually replaced with black slavery during the 1700s, but if you are a white person it's entirely possible you have slavery in your background.
Replace "during the 1500s and 1600s" with "throughout history" and "entirely possible" with "mathematically inescapable" and you're on to something.
Unfortunately, since slavery still exists, we still need to work on helping out slaves and people who have had their lives warped because of slave ancestry. Some of us have managed to get well past the lingering, generations-long effects of slavery, but the slaves Saddam Hussein freed when he invaded Kuwait (and all the slaves in states like Somalia, Dubai, and the UAE) still need our help.
I'll get modded down for mentioning that Saddam once did something useful, I bet.
Every reported case, perhaps. How many aren't ever discovered?
There aren't any. I use a magic fact-repelling rock to make sure they are all discovered.
It also keeps whales out of my cherry trees - see, there aren't any whales in my cherry trees, that's how I know the magic rock works.
I didn't even begin to touch on desegregation in the 1900's or the 1960's civil rights movement. I was concentrating on slavery and the appearance it took throughout american history with the immediate connection to racism after the end of it. While I agree with your assessment somewhat, the civil rights movement wouldn't have happened as it took place in the 1960's. We most likely would have had desegregation and integration but not the riots nor the resistance as seen by the 1960's. However, the early 1900's saw a strong KKK present which might have made it necessary to take out certain Klan leaders as wanted criminals.
Wilson was president before the idea of the government giving favors and taking care of the people. The great depression and the resulting new deal legislation, under Roosevelt ( most of which was found unconstitutional and Roosevelt knew it specifically because of a speech in response to the repeal of prohibition in which he said " "As a matter of fact and law, the governing rights of the States are all of those which have not been surrendered to the National Government by the Constitution or its amendments. Wisely or unwisely, people know that under the Eighteenth Amendment Congress has been given the right to legislate on this particular subject1, but this is not the case in the matter of a great number of other vital problems of government, such as the conduct of public utilities, of banks, of insurance, of business, of agriculture, of education, of social welfare and of a dozen other important features. In these, Washington must not be encouraged to interfere." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt, as reported the New York Times by March 3, 1930" is proof of that.
Anyways, No special favors outside of making sure all laws applied to everyone equally would have happened. This means fountains for white only and blacks only had to be for everyone only unless they were on private property without any legal enforcement and no overlooking breached of peace. No quotas that fueled the appearance of special treatment at the expense of people who viewed themselves as never doing any harm to them, a no government taking care of the people which spurred the anti welfare movement when a lot of the disenfranchised minorities assumed the roles pit of necessity in the mid 1960's. We also wouldn't have had the "projects" where the minorities were more or less rounded up and shipped to cluster housing with no job prospects or chances of jobs without having to sacrifice and waste all their spare time getting to and from their low paying 12 hour shift jobs. We probably wouldn't have had a national prevailing wage either because it was enacted to stop minority contractors from flooding the market with cheap labor and out bidding white contractors after it was discovered that southern black laborers replaced northern white laborers in building the Veterans' Bureau hospital in Long Island circa 1930-1931.
In the north, by the turn of the century, a good portion of the minorities fit in about as well as everyone else. This is especially true when the whites and blacks were pretty much united against the Irish who came to America without a desire to go back to Ireland and much like the freed slaves, ended up taking jobs for less then the prevailing wages and from the established workforce just to put food on the table. It would have been a very different landscape then what we saw not only because of integration in the military but because of the difference in the expectations of government and what government could do.
BTW, the resentment and hate from displacement is something inherit in American nature and can be seen by the illegal immigration and outsourcing scenarios right now. Most people don't seem to mind qualified legal immigrants making the same amount but have an embellished resentment towards the illegals who work for less that displace legal workers and companies moving over seas to cut labor costs.
What's the matter? You don't think feelings and empathy are a good basis for law? What do you expect to base law on? Fact? Reason? Those are archaic ideas that have passed out of favor.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Why do people insist upon breaking down Evolution into 2 separate theories as if that was some sort of a valid axoim? There is no such thing as Micro or Macro Evolution. This stupid dichotomy came from Creationists who wanted to make their arguments seem more valid by attacking the harder to grasp concepts of evolution over time.
As for Darwin being a racist or whatever, that's frankly all irrelevant.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
You needed to take an updated course in biology. What you've said is untrue. The micro/macro classification distinction exists outside of Creationist circles.
Mirco E. refers to the incremental changes w/in a species ( e.g. people born w/out wisdom teeth, darwin's finches ).
Macro E. refers to the change of an organism into a different one such that is is a new species (e.g. chimp->human, reptiles->birds).
The difference is important because we (scientists) have no proof for macroevolution aside from theories based on the DNA chain. We've never proofed or observed the evolution of one organism to a different [enough] organism.
The idiot, moron, democrats are at it again!
No new taxes!
No increase in taxes!
Smaller government! Less government intervention in our businesses and lives!
Impeach obama! Impeach all democrats! Impeach all liberals and progressives!
Remove the Czars! They have no oversight by Congress or any group and thier reach is too broad!
Repeal all bills passsed into law since b.o. was inagurated!
Stop printing money! Return the bail-out and other government spent money to the Treasury!
Pay down the deficit now!
Repeal all gay marriage and gay union laws that have passed!
Remove all illegal immigrints - yes, illegal aliens!
Punish the "sanctuary cities" that ignore illegal aliens!
Conservative fiscal management and conservative public administration / government PROVES that the conservative approach is best!
Bring back and use the death penalties!
Seriously, every other form of communications already has taxes and surcharges on it. Take a look at your phone bill some time and see if you can figure out what all the different items on it really are.
If you object to paying an extra 15 cents per month, just say so. If you don't think this is the best way for the government to spend that money, say so. But don't call it a slippery slope when it's nothing of the sort. It's just putting internet access into the same category as cell phone, land line, cable, etc.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
i say we drop the hunt for child pron. seriously, how much of this shit is on there that every discussion on the internet has to be about it?
social darwinism does indeed back the ideologies of the nazi party and its offshoots the conservation movement, eugenics movement, and ultimately the environmentalists as well... this is because fascism began in the british empire, where it was birthed, endorsed, and bailed out (twice) by london and wall street. the print media lavishly heaped praise upon fascist regimes, calling them model governments. fascist (british monarchy friendly) forces even tried to unseat FDR in a failed revolutionary attempt in the USA, the so-called business plot. british royals even sent their children to the hitler youth for summer camp, as well as other nazi related organizations.
british royals have been known to deplore modern medicine and infrastructure because it works against "natural selection." people who are less "economically fit," they argue, shouldn't reproduce and spread their genes, so they claim we should not have public health care, we should "reduce our population" (genocide thru starvation, etc.), food and fuels should be price rationed, and "resources" should be preserved (for the anglo-americans). nothing about this statement by the legislature is surprising, and if it indeed is based upon this line of thinking with this history in mind, i applaud it.
The only thing I would really disagree with is the idea that Wilson was before the idea of government giving favors to people. Wilson is definitely in the same ideological tradition as FDR. I would say that Wilson was a proto-fascist--that is, part of the group whose philosophy of government fascism later grew out of (I think a case could be made that if conditions had allowed it Wilson might have gone the direction of fascism--Mussolini's version).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
WHEREAS, Adolf Hitler and others have exploited the racist views of Darwin and those he influenced, such as German zoologist Ernst Haekel, to justify the annihilation of millions of purportedly racially inferior individuals.
Wow I can just see Darwin up there in heaven cursing those bastards that would cast him with the likes of Hitler.
Wilson may have leaned that way but the reality was that the political realm simply didn't accept the premise before Roosevelt challenged he authority of the supreme court and caused the expansion of the Interstate Commerce clause of the constitution in order to avoid a constitutional crisis.
The political will at the time simply wasn't there.
That's jive. As any fool know, the earth be less than 10,000 years old.
but it's still Over 9000...
Be seeing you...
I do. IIRC I voted for the Libertarian in the last Presidential election. As a potsmoker, I have to say that a vote for someone who wants to put you in jail is WORSE than a wasted vote.
Whoever modded my comment "troll", see this. "Troll" doesn't mean "an opinion I disagree with". That was my honest opinion; I actually have little use for either of the mainstream, not covered by corporate media, corporate-controlled parties.
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