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FSFE President Urges Community To Strengthen Open Source As a Brand

Georg Greve, founder and president of the Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE), has an insightful look at FOSS from a brand perspective with urgings that the community come together and strengthen open source as a unified brand. "There are plenty of false enemies to go around. Ironically, the most common form of false enemy is found around the animosity that has built around branding and framing issues, more specifically in the area of 'Free Software' vs 'Open Source.' Name-calling and quarreling on either side is not helpful, and serves to hide the common base and interest in having a strong brand and powerful message. The historical facts around Free Software are well documented and available to anyone who wishes to look them up. But instead of focusing on past insults and wrongs, I believe our focus should be on the future. We should realize that what divides us pales in comparison to what we have in common and that division and exclusion are harmful to us all. So we should rein in the name-callers on either side, and empower those people who know how to build cooperation, corporations, and positive feedback loops."

152 comments

  1. Pfah. by guyminuslife · · Score: 5, Funny

    Refrain from name-calling? What an idiot.

    --
    I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    1. Re:Pfah. by notarockstar1979 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      No, he's got the right idea. Quit calling him names you putz.

    2. Re:Pfah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Wow- this article reads like an Obama speech. Coincidence?

    3. Re:Pfah. by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Funny

      How appropriate, you fight like a cow!

      So? You fight like a farmer. ;-)

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    4. Re:Pfah. by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      When people who are frustrated at the trend to create de-featured pablum by Ubuntu/KDE/Gnome/Xorg etal complain and get mocked what reason would I have to help them? Right now the Fedora team has at least added some functionality back. I'm not sure they can add it all back if the trend at creating pablum for the masses continues and the features are not just ripped out but actively prevented from being added back in easily.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
  2. False friends, as well as false enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There was a story in the Firehose a couple days ago that had links to NEC and Panasonic's "source code download" site for their Japanese Docomo phones.

    They've been on the Linux bandwagon for years and have been giving away the source. However, they have added the extra stipulation that downloaders need to have actually bought the phone (and require the IMEI to prove it).

    This is in direct violation of GPLv2's section 3b which requires the source be available to all.

    Anyway, I thought that was interesting and wondered why it never reached the front page (it was orange, so interest was high). And seeing as how the current story is about false friends and false enemies, I thought it appropriate to point out how some of the biggest exploiters of Linux are also sometimes enemies of free software.

    1. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      Too bad you did provide an link to it so that we could vote it up.

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    2. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by andy.ruddock · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that section 3b of GPL v2 says that the source code needs to made available to those for whom you make available copies of your work.
      Nowhere does it say that you have to make copies of your work available for everybody, neither does it say that you have to make the source available to everybody.

      What it does do is prevent anybody who already has copies of the work (obtained by legal/lawful means), and/or the source code, making it available to others.

      --
      God: An invisible friend for grown-ups.
    3. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. I can write Secret GPL code for the Department of Defence and be in compliance.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    4. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 1

      Section 3.B:

      Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

      To give any third party, not merely a third party that happens to know my magic number that give me access.

      At my company we always choose to satisfy 3.A, because for the cost of handing you the CD with the source code along with our product, the entire transaction is finished, there are no more obligations on either side to provide anything else.

      They should be providing a written offer that any third party should be able to show up with to give the source code. I shouldn't need to know any magic numbers or any other details. I might have to show up with the original authentic copy of the written offer, but there is not much to quibble about over there. I have always assumed that I could give the written offer to as many people as I feel like, but I've never seen that clearly established. Otherwise, subverting the GPL would be fairly trivial. Once I show up with the original authentic original written offer, I can distribute it to whomever I wish.

      Kirby

    5. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    6. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      The "it" in "Accompany it with a written offer" refers to your application does it not? Those people who you're not giving "it" to, are not entitled to receive such an offer. They could, however, get that offer through people who did receive the application.

    7. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 3rd party is the one you gave the software to and offered source code to. The 2nd party is the one distributing it. The 1st party would be the one the 2nd party obtained it from. That's how I always read it anyway - it's also clear when you consider the context of the entire license and some of the other options.

    8. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 1

      True, but if you give me the written offer, I believe I'm capable of transferring it to anyone I wish to work on that software on my behalf. If you read up on the early Stallman writings, he was worried that non-technical people would be unable to work on the software themselves. I have always interpreted that clause as part of the solution. Someone who knows nothing about software can hire a third party to fix the software on their behalf. In that case, I would transfer my written offer to that third party and they would request the software and work on it.

      Maybe I misunderstood it all. I don't agree with the first, second, and third party analysis of the other response to my original post. However, I am not a Lawyer, so my layperson understanding might be completely wrong.

      Kirby

    9. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting conversation going on here.

      Section 3b states that the offer is to give any third party the full source (for a term of 3 years).

      Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years,
      to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of
      physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable
      copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms
      of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
      interchange

      It's like telling the bartender that all drinks are on me, but not telling anyone else. If someone finds out, they can demand that I pay up and I'd be honor bound to make good on my offer.

      I wonder how "any third party" could be read any other way.

    10. Re:False friends, as well as false enemies by RDW · · Score: 1

      You are free to re-distribute the code to anyone and everyone, but this doesn't oblige the distributors you got it from (who might be the original authors, and who might have charged you for the software) to do so themselves. Their only responsibility is to you. Here's a relevant FAQ entry directly from the FSF:

      http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLRequireAvailabilityToPublic

      'If I distribute GPL'd software for a fee, am I required to also make it available to the public without a charge?

              No. However, if someone pays your fee and gets a copy, the GPL gives them the freedom to release it to the public, with or without a fee. For example, someone could pay your fee, and then put her copy on a web site for the general public.'

  3. One should never RTFA, indeed ... by foobsr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA: "One is to believe there was a substantial difference in the software referred to by the terms "Free Software" and "Open Source." There isn't."

    This was when I stopped.

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    1. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed.

      There are people in the commercial realm who will claim that the differences between Open Source and Commercial are insignificant, and that the current state of the code should be the sole quality by which they are judged. And the Open Source people will foam at the mouth over it, because the differences are very significant.

      Then those same people will turn around and claim that the differences between Free Software and Open Source are insignificant.

      Compromises that grant others leverage over you are never insignificant.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, I'll bite.

      The OSI and FSF license criteria are more or less identical. Or at least they were the last time I tried to compare them.

      Aside from the actual code, the licenses would form the substance of the movement, no?

    3. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why stop? For someone associated with the FSF to finally speak the truth on this matter is delightfully refreshing. There is no substantive difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. Yeah, you might be able to find some inconsequential differences that do not apply to any actual software, but that only proves the point of it not being substantive.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    4. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by sy5t3m · · Score: 0, Troll
      From http://fsfe.org/projects/wipo/fser.en.html

      So ''Open Source'' can refer to Free Software, but it can also refer to software not meeting the criteria above. It is also at times used to describe a particular software development model, although some parts of Free Software are developed in closed development models, and proprietary software is increasingly experimenting with open development approaches. This makes the term ''Open Source'' highly ambiguous, and indeed difficult for all areas that depend on precision in their language, such as science, law and politics.

      So, on the one hand they are trying to say "there is no difference between free software and open source", and on the other they are pointing out that open source does not always mean the same thing as free software.

      If they cannot even unify what they are saying with what they have said, what hope is there for them to unify developers?

    5. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by causality · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      There are people in the commercial realm who will claim that the differences between Open Source and Commercial are insignificant, and that the current state of the code should be the sole quality by which they are judged. And the Open Source people will foam at the mouth over it, because the differences are very significant.

      Then those same people will turn around and claim that the differences between Free Software and Open Source are insignificant.

      Compromises that grant others leverage over you are never insignificant.

      I agree with you and wanted to add an opinion about the one part of this you did not mention. In the article/summary they talk about strenghtening Open Source as a "brand". One of the social aspects of Open Source that I dearly enjoy is that the people involved in it generally don't need for it to be a brand and they don't need slick marketing in order to see the merits of something. They tend to be freethinkers and thus are generally much more sophisticated, discerning and independent than that.

      I really think the folks who want it to be another brand imagine that the purpose of Open Source is to battle Windows for domination of the desktop. I have always felt that Open Source can thrive just fine without becoming the next Windows. I also believe that the only way to really beat Windows would be to become just like it, and in the specific case of Linux, that would represent the loss or the de-emphasis of many things I really like about it.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    6. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by david_thornley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why did you stop?

      The Free Software Foundation and Open Source Initiative are very different in philosophy and how they present themselves. There are often serious disagreements on what is best to do on on legal and political issues.

      However, when it comes to writing software, the two are very similar. They encourage the same things, and differ only slightly in the licenses they accept.

      The software written by a Free Software developer out of ideology is basically indistinguishable from that written by an esr follower who just wants to use the bazaar technique of development. At this level, there are no differences.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by skeeto · · Score: 4, Informative
      This is specifically addressed in TFA. In fact, that's really what TFA is all about. Here is the exact quote again,

      One is to believe there was a substantial difference in the software referred to by the terms "Free Software" and "Open Source."

      He is referring to a specific definition -- the original definition -- for Open Source, which was practically the same as Free Software. Standing by itself there, without context, he seems inconsistent, but he's not. Now read down a bit,

      Open Source is a failed re-branding effort over which its creators lost control, followed by brand degradation through abuse and over-extension into areas such as business and development models.

      This is where the Open Source and Free Software divide when it comes to definitions. The brand Open Source was abused and stretched so that it is no longer consistent with Free Software. This makes his statements consistent with the official FSF stance: that Open Source and Free Software are now two different things.

    8. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by skeeto · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you hadn't stopped reading there you would understand the context that makes this statement true. Read the next paragraph and it will make sense. In fact, TFA addresses important differences between Open Source and Free Software.

      Hint: in your quoted sentence he is referring to a specific, older definition for Open Source.

    9. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by davek · · Score: 1

      Absolutely correct.

      The value of programmer is not in the number of secrets he knows, nor is the value of software in the number of secret actions it takes (i.e. software w/o secrets is by deffinition, open source)

      --
      6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
    10. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      You could say the same thing about Free Software, as 90% of the population uses that term to refer to proprietary freeware (internet explorer, flash, etc).

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    11. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by h00manist · · Score: 1

      Hmm the _substance_ of the movement I believe are ideals, which are quite well represented in the licenses indeed. But I would wager that a discussion of whether the ideals of Open Source/Libre Software are more related to social ideals or are related strictly to technical/professional matters would become a rather heated debate. Is the core reason most people have hopes for GNU/Linux/etc technical? Legal? Social? Many Linux enthusiasts I have met don't even know what is source code.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    12. Re:One should never RTFA, indeed ... by h00manist · · Score: 1

      The Free Software Foundation and Open Source Initiative are very different in philosophy and how they present themselves. There are often serious disagreements on what is best to do on on legal and political issues.

      Legal and political disagreements? Isn't that some kind of major sport causing OCD in 99% of the population?

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  4. The Meaning Of "Free" by Rary · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Although he insists that there's no difference between "Free Software" and "Open Software", he needs to realize that he won't get far in truly creating a "brand", which he also refers to as "anyone's gut feeling", using a word that the majority of those "anyone"s out there have a "gut feeling" means something other than what he intends it to mean.

    To anyone who is not part of the F/OSS movement, "free software" means software that doesn't cost anything, and it always will. Don't try to change people's perception of words to match what your product is, change the words you use to steer people's perception of the product. If it's freedom you want to communicate, then do it with the word "freedom", or the word "open", or something similar, but not "free", which, when placed in front of a product (such as "software"), always implies "zero dollars" to the rest of the world.

    --

    "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    1. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I prefer Hippyware. Free Software is ambiguous because people think it means software-that-you-don't-pay-for. Open Source is ambiguous because people think it means software-with-source-code-you-can-see (but not necessarily have any right to modify or redistribute). Open Source is also bad marketing, because most people don't care about the source code (although they may care, from a business standpoint, about the associated benefits of having certain rights to the source code).

      In contrast, no one I've spoken to has ever misinterpreted Hippyware. People either know what it means, or they ask. They never walk around thinking it means one thing when it means something else, a problem that both Open Source and Free Software share. Software Libre also works, but Hippyware rolls off the tongue a lot better.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by againjj · · Score: 1

      "Open Software".

      Interesting. I think that would better imply the proper meaning than "Open Source Software", which to the average person means that the source is available for viewing.

      P.S. He talked about "Open Source Software", which is why this stuck out.

    3. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Fri13 · · Score: 1

      Libre Software!

      Free Sofware is Free, even that Free can mean the freedom, like as well the free price.

      But Libre, is what just can not be mistaken to price.

    4. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by pseudonomous · · Score: 1

      So, I take it you're a proponent of proprietary software? Because I sure wouldn't want to use something called "hippyware".

    5. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by impaledsunset · · Score: 1

      Your term, however, diminishes the significance of the values behind the term. Many people will not at something with that name too seriously. Nobody takes hippies seriously. So try again.

      If I had mod points I would have modded you funny, though.

    6. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Rary · · Score: 1

      Yes, that was a typo on my part, but it is perhaps a better term. I'll happily take all credit if it catches on. :)

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    7. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your term, however, diminishes the significance of the values behind the term. Many people will not at something with that name too seriously.

      Does Free/Open Source/Hippy Software take on value from the people who use the software, or from the people who contribute new software and improvements? Would people be less likely to contribute to "Hippyware?"

      Nobody takes hippies seriously. So try again.

      Hippies take hippies seriously.

    8. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by causality · · Score: 1

      So, I take it you're a proponent of proprietary software? Because I sure wouldn't want to use something called "hippyware".

      Why not, man?

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    9. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by maxume · · Score: 2, Funny

      If I had mod points, I would mod him Goddamn-dirty-longhair.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    10. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with understanding the true meaning of the word Free is due to a lack of schooling. Many people don't know English, history or political science. Free State = A type of republican state government (Irish Free State, Orange Free State, Freestate of Thuringia, also 19th century US states where slavery was outlawed). Free Trade = I think it is obvious that trade is not gratis. Live Free or Die (New Hampshire motto) - I think it is clear that NH is not a Gratis State. "We begin with the proposition that the right of freedom of thought protected by the First Amendment against state action includes both the right to speak freely and the right to refrain from speaking at all," Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote for the majority in Maynard.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    11. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by skeeto · · Score: 1

      Although he insists that there's no difference between "Free Software" and "Open Software"

      He's saying that there is little difference between the original definition for Open Source and the definition for Free Software, which is true. It's all about context, which is provided by the following paragraph.

    12. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Words have different meanings in different contexts. Like "free state" describes some form of national government while "fluid state" is a physical property. The main difference is between free [abstract thing] and free [good/service]. The latter has always meant "without a payment", like "free beer", until RMS challenged that. I would say it didn't help his cause.

    13. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    14. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      I think it's more than just the brand. It's also the marketing. Saying "free as in freedom, not free as in beer" turns off a lot of potential customers because their proprietary software vendors provide them with free beer and strippers.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    15. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Threni · · Score: 1

      Same reason a lot of companies don't use SUSE/red hat - that crap you get when you enter a bad password into SUDO. It's embarrassing and unprofessional.

    16. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      I'd suggest finding another word with better connotations. Hippyware is clever, and it has the connotations you speak of, but it also connotes lower quality/shabbier quality software. And last I've checked, free software is not just ideologically-driven, it's also ego-driven, so if you want some buy-in from most of the "free software" developers (now, I'm not saying all of them would reject your suggestion) the new name would have to be not only usable -- but also at least be a little more palatable to their ego.

    17. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the recession making "free" not "so free" ! wow ?

    18. Re:The Meaning Of "Free" by h00manist · · Score: 1

      You can't translate hippyware into other languages as well. You might as well choose a new word to describe F/OSS "Quilombo Software".

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  5. why does open source need marketing? by convolvatron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    unless you belong to an open source organization, it doesn't seem at all clear
    that open source as a concept needs to maintain 'branding' at all.

  6. FOSS Brand?! by erroneus · · Score: 1

    I don't think so. What is a "brand"? It's a lot of things, but it becomes a unified symbol representing a variety of things to a variety of people. For some it is a symbol of freedom. Good. For some it is a symbol of quality. Not good! For some it may represent any number of other things, but the bottom line is that "FOSS Brand" cannot even think to represent or guarantee all things to all people. Some FOSS projects are good. Others are not good. Some were good but are no longer. Without a central control that says what can or can't carry the brand, the brand itself is at risk of harming everything that carries it.

    I understand what is driving the idea and the idealists driving it. But not everyone thinks the same and these idealists need to understand and appreciate that fact. Religious idealists are similar in nature and yet the very ideals themselves become different among idealists. The Catholic Church split and became the Church of England and the Catholic church. They weakened the "brand" of Christianity in a sense. There is more than one branch of Islam as well and yet all sides and factions have moderates and radicals bent on their own individual views some even doing things causes others to say "that's not 'true' [religion]!"

    RMS, not everyone will agree with you and only accept part of your dogma.

    It is good enough that there is F/OSS as opposed to commercial software just as there are atheists and theists. It does not need further definition than that. Yet, in order to keep things simple, people do tend to want to put brands an labels on things even when they aren't appropriate. It is unfortunate and unavoidable.

    1. Re:FOSS Brand?! by Narpak · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Catholic Church split and became the Church of England and the Catholic church.

      Actually is was more like the protoChurch splitting into the Catholic Church the Greek Orthodox Church and some sects and orders that existed for a while there after before either being Assimilated, Exterminated or driven to some geographical region were they were practically unreachable.

      Now a bit later Lutheran Protestants appeared and split from the Catholics. And AFTER that the King of England broke with the Pope and established a new order with the Crown as a the head of the English Church.

      Of course this is EXTREME SIMPLIFICATIONS of complex historical processes and events. But the splitting of the English Church from the Catholic faith did not happen in a vacuum.

    2. Re:FOSS Brand?! by gbjbaanb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, Linux is a brand (only the fatally jealous calls is GNU/Linux :) )

      That's enough to make it a 'known entity' amongst some, if it wasn't branded as such, each distro called themselves something completely unique, then they wouldn't have anywhere near the same amount of effort and support behind them. The fact that each distro can call themselves a Linux distro makes it completely different.

      I don't think we need a single thing to market when having many flavours is quite sufficent.

    3. Re:FOSS Brand?! by pseudonomous · · Score: 1

      I don't think the point is that we should eliminate "the flavours", I see this more as saying "hey, we're all looking at things from a similar perspective, so let's push that", I mean, sort of like saying OK, let's not just push Linux, let's also push *BSD, OpenSolaris, and FreeDOS ... all at the same time, I mean who CARES that the *BSD license is not copyleft? (well ... BSD developers I guess, 'cause they can't use GPL'ed code, but anyway), it's definitely an open source project and it's a project that's free in spirit.

    4. Re:FOSS Brand?! by ivucica · · Score: 1

      Well, Linux is a brand (only the fatally jealous calls is GNU/Linux :) )

      I'm not fatally jealous, I'm not involved with GNU, and even think that FSF is a bit too radical sometimes (not that we don't need that, too). However, saying it's Linux is disrespectful. Even saying it's GNU/Linux doesn't include all who wrote software for various distros, but it's much much closer. Much software and almost all current distros would break if you removed GNU components; start with bash, and go on with gcc, and go on with automake. And no, I don't consider bash replaceable, and gcc is a quite complex piece of software to get replaced (especially g++).

      So is it nowadays called jealousy to give credit where credit is due? I don't insist others call it that way. But I don't have anything to be jealous of (see first sentence).

    5. Re:FOSS Brand?! by grumbel · · Score: 1

      So is it nowadays called jealousy to give credit where credit is due?

      That whole issue is just historic and has really little to do with credit. If you want to give credit you have to call it GNU/Linux/Xorg/KDE/Gnome/Ubuntu/Firefox/OpenOffice/..., but that of course is a little impractical. The issue popped up in the first place because GNU was building bits and pieces of an operation system and so did Linus, both gave their creation a name and the Linux name got popular, even so its technically wrong, as its just the kernel, not the complete OS, so the GNU peolpe wanted their slice and came up with GNU/Linux. The joke of cause is that the OS is not GNU either, as GNU never delivered an OS itself, that's what the distris did by putting the pieces together and they didn't just pick GNU and Linux, they picked a ton of other stuff to.

      So in the end the solution is very simple: I just call it Ubuntu.

    6. Re:FOSS Brand?! by ivucica · · Score: 1

      Well, I call it Debian GNU/Linux... :)

    7. Re:FOSS Brand?! by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 0

      Amen.
      I call it Linux rather than GNU/Linux because I think that even if it is built out of a lot of GNU stuff, when you look at it as a whole, the kernel is really the only thing every distro has in common. I refer to each specific distro by its prefered name (Ubuntu Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, etc.) because, considering the GNU project only uses Linux until they finish Hurd, I don't think they have as much say in it the name as the distro devs, who put it all together do.

      --
      Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
    8. Re:FOSS Brand?! by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      (only the fatally jealous calls is GNU/Linux :) )

      Not only: Occasionally people need the term to distinguish between GNU/Linux, Busybox/Linux, and GNU/kFreeBSD. :)

    9. Re:FOSS Brand?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I refer to each specific distro by its prefered name (Ubuntu Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, etc.)

      Actually Ubuntu is just called Ubuntu, so saying Ubuntu GNU/Linux is neither more nor less preferred than saying Ubuntu Linux.

    10. Re:FOSS Brand?! by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 1

      Right you are.
      It is, however, Linux for human beings.

      --
      Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
  7. Re:This is the work of the DEVIL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taking-own-advice fail.

  8. I'd love to.. by JonJ · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hear RMS' take on this. :D

    --
    -- Linux user #369862
    1. Re:I'd love to.. by dyingtolive · · Score: 1

      I think his take on things is part of the problem that damages whatever brand might have been able to exist. Linux is what I would call generically the flagship "product" of the F/OSS "Brand" (with the realization that I'm using all of those words deliberately imprecisely, like a typical user would). People can't even agree on the name of it. GNU/RMS GNU/wants GNU/it GNU/to GNU/be GNU/called GNU/something GNU/else, but most of the rest of the free world simply calls it Linux. To others its "Ubuntu", and there is no other term for it. I'm not sure you can take something that isn't centrally managed and effectively establish a firm brand on it. It seems to me like while you can do your best to help improve an image, it still remains that the branding is only a product of what the public perceive it as. While that may seem like a rather obvious statement, I don't think there is much that can be done until you clear up the internal squabbling. Check the ego's at the door and allow for one group to handle standardization on naming and other "conventions". Focus some funding/volunteer work toward softskills as well as development like marketing and advertising. Have someone release a solid distro that has an easy to pronounce, catchy name (Ku-boon-TOO? Ku-bun-TOO? K-Ubun-TU? I have heard it called all these things by different people. If they can't figure out how to pronounce it, they won't like talking about it). Find some people who are technically minded enough to be able to grasp what is going on, but at the same time capable of making catchy advertisements, have some donations or fundraisers to build revenue to plaster them on websites and maybe even TV. Lord knows there are enough "geek" t-shirt sites out there plastering the same tired old witticisms. Maybe co-opt with one of them to actually bring about some new designs and donate a part of the profit toward such an initiative, otherwise, start your own and do so.

      That's about all I have for my rant. I will leave you with this:

      Blake: A-I-D-A. Attention, Interest, Decision, Action. Attention - Do I have you attention? Interest - Are you interested? I know you are, because it's fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks. Decision - Have you made your decision for Christ? And Action.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    2. Re:I'd love to.. by JonJ · · Score: 2, Funny

      I rarely get a shot at this. But here goes:

      ---> Joke

          o
         /|\     <- You
         / \

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    3. Re:I'd love to.. by dyingtolive · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I get it was a joke after rereading it (I'm tired. Go easy on me.) But I argue that my point still stands.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    4. Re:I'd love to.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait. This was modded "Offtopic" and not troll of flamebait? There really needs to be a way to modpoint the modpoints.

  9. Okies by Narpak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But instead of focussing on past insults and wrongs, I believe our focus should be on the future. We should realize that what divides us pales in comparison to what we have in common and that division and exclusion are harmful to us all.

    I guess I agree with him in this. There are people on all sides of these issues that are far too concerned about being right and preaching their "Right Way". Name calling and other childish behaviour is counter-productive. What is needed is good debate on the issues and without ad hominem attacks that only detract and distract.

    That being said my feeling is that those that idolizes various ways of distributing, publishing or retail of software is becoming increasingly marginalized; which is a good thing. Dogmatic subscription to an ideology is always a powerful activator for the Us Vs Them instinct that seems to run through so much of our public debates and arguments.

    1. Re:Okies by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This was actually discussed a couple days ago here on /.

      The topic was slightly different, but the parallels exist. Essentially, any difficult concept must be broken down into simpler but less accurate statements in order for the general public to digest them. So when a scientist sees a rise in atmospheric methane levels and has traced the rise to melting methane ice due to increased global temperatures, he needs to 1) explain it simply so that the layman can understand and 2) explain the consequences of the information.

      So for any concept which you are hearing, it must be understood that a much more complex and nuanced explanation exists but you aren't getting it.

      Take that into the public sphere. It is impossible to debate an issue on its merits, because the time necessary would be prohibitive. So we resort to simplifications and "dogma" to explain the difficult ideas expressed.

      The problem is that the lay public is dumb and thinks that what they are hearing is God's Truth. The result is the ever spreading brutishness and lack of subtlety that we see in today's American culture.

    2. Re:Okies by johnlcallaway · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Except no on hears the name calling other than people like Greve. I don't hear it, because I'm not involved in it.

      And since the large majority of people that use open source are also not involved in it, fixing it won't necessarily translate into additional users.

      The two main reasons that companies I have worked in don't use open source software is either because they want a paid technician on the other end of the phone, or it was felt the quality wasn't as good.

      I suggest Mr. Greve expend his energy on overcoming those two issues if he wants to expand the acceptance of open source software. One only has to wade through the mountains of crap on SourceForge to question whether it is worth the effort to search for the good stuff that surpasses commercial options, or just go buy something.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    3. Re:Okies by causality · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Take that into the public sphere. It is impossible to debate an issue on its merits, because the time necessary would be prohibitive.

      I'd wager that time has very little to do with it. More like, debating issues on merits would fatally wound, kill, bury, and hold funeral services for this concept that all viewpoints are inherently equal. They're not. Some of them are supported by facts and reasoning.

      For example, take the gun control issue. You know what I have never, ever once heard an anti-gun/pro-gun control individual comment on? The fact that every US state which has enacted conceal-carry permits has seen significant reductions in violent crime. They refuse to address this fact because this fact contradicts their position. Rather than consider whether their position no longer fits the available facts and whether it should be discarded and replaced with a different viewpoint, they just pretend not to notice the available facts. That means, these aren't "issues" at all that we're "debating", they are more like religious beliefs. The cost of doing things this way is seldom appreciated.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    4. Re:Okies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't hear the name calling? You never read that writing software that doesn't conform with RMS definition of Free (TM) is like slavery?

    5. Re:Okies by AceofSpades19 · · Score: 1

      Except no on hears the name calling other than people like Greve. I don't hear it, because I'm not involved in it. And since the large majority of people that use open source are also not involved in it, fixing it won't necessarily translate into additional users. The two main reasons that companies I have worked in don't use open source software is either because they want a paid technician on the other end of the phone, or it was felt the quality wasn't as good. I suggest Mr. Greve expend his energy on overcoming those two issues if he wants to expand the acceptance of open source software. One only has to wade through the mountains of crap on SourceForge to question whether it is worth the effort to search for the good stuff that surpasses commercial options, or just go buy something.

      I suppose you haven't heard of Red Hat, Novell, or IBM, they offer paid support for F/OSS, unless a paid technician means something else

    6. Re:Okies by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1

      As I put forth, those are the reasons the COMPANY choose not to use it. I didn't say I don't choose to use it. In fact, my current employer loves open source and contributes bug reports and fixes for the products we use.

      Mr. Greve's whining about name calling and it's impact on open source is minor compared to the PERCEPTIONS of support and quality that are out there. Fix the perceptions and deal with the reality that there is a ton of open source crap out there in addition to the good stuff.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
  10. Ribbon! by torreja · · Score: 2, Funny

    We need a Ribbon!

    1. Re:Ribbon! by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      We need a Ribbon!

      Not one that loops mid you. It must be an open ribbon !

      Possibly in hex.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  11. False Premise by malevolentjelly · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Open source is a random barbarian horde of software developers. That would be like creating a brand for things you heard from "Some guy at a bar". Oh, I heard from some guy at a bar that open source software needs to create a unified brand. Isn't the open source community sort of intentionally decentralized? Creating a brand to unify this stuff would be actually very deceptive. The way distributions currently brand their components is probably about as honest and accurate as anyone should require from a product perspective.

    There is no "official" open source organization. It's a concept.

    1. Re:False Premise by Rary · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But there is a brand whether or not it's intentionally created. The output of this "random barbarian horde of software developers" all falls under a single label, "open source", and therefore has the "open source" brand. He describes a brand as being "anyone's gut feeling". In other words, what is it that people think of when they hear "open source software"? Well, that's the brand. It may not have been shaped by anyone intentionally, but it still exists. So, he wants to shape it.

      He also makes the point that the de facto brand is actually shaped by those who compete with open source. Microsoft, for example, shapes the open source brand through its marketing. Therefore, by not making a concerted effort to shape the brand in a positive way, the community is effectively allowing it to be shaped in a negative way.

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    2. Re:False Premise by malevolentjelly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But there is a brand whether or not it's intentionally created. The output of this "random barbarian horde of software developers" all falls under a single label, "open source", and therefore has the "open source" brand. He describes a brand as being "anyone's gut feeling". In other words, what is it that people think of when they hear "open source software"? Well, that's the brand. It may not have been shaped by anyone intentionally, but it still exists. So, he wants to shape it.

      It is being branded, though- by Red Hat and Canonical and such. They each brand their own open source ecosystems, as does Mozilla. I believe the branding of open source should remain on a per project basis. As it stands in the mainstream, I would contend that open source is a "feature" moreso than a "brand".

      It's not going to be a team effort...

      However, props if you guys can distance yourself from GNU and the FSF. That will do wonders for notability.

    3. Re:False Premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Open source is a random barbarian horde of software developers.

      Form wikipedia:

      A brand is a collection of experiences and associations connected with a service, a person or any other entity.

      As barbarians had its brand (loot, pillage and scoff off), so does F/OSS. It is associated with security, no-virus, gratis, hard-to-administer, BSA safe and whatnot.

      In eyes of non-believers we are one, we are legion.

    4. Re:False Premise by seandiggity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, props if you guys can distance yourself from GNU and the FSF. That will do wonders for notability.

      Yeah, mad props yo. Let's forget those who began the movement...they're just hippies and commies and smelly anyway. Then we can be, um, "notable" and shit. Like Apple and Microsoft. Awww yeahhh.

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
  12. The reign in Spain by Minwee · · Score: 3, Funny

    So we should reign in the name-callers on either side, and empower those people who know how to build cooperation, corporations, and positive feedback loops.

    Can we also empower those people who know the difference between the words "reign", meaning the possession of power or authority, and "rein", which is the strap that you use to control a horse?

    Then maybe we could rein in some of the worst abuses of the English language.

    1. Re:The reign in Spain by causality · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So we should reign in the name-callers on either side, and empower those people who know how to build cooperation, corporations, and positive feedback loops.

      Can we also empower those people who know the difference between the words "reign", meaning the possession of power or authority, and "rein", which is the strap that you use to control a horse?

      Then maybe we could rein in some of the worst abuses of the English language.

      Next thing ya know, you'll want people to stop calling themselves "editors" unless they are willing to proofread that single paragraph (a whole paragraph, what a tremendous burden huh?) before submitting it to an audience of many tens of thousands of people.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    2. Re:The reign in Spain by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Next thing ya know, you'll want people to stop calling themselves "editors" unless they are willing to proofread that single paragraph (a whole paragraph, what a tremendous burden huh?) before submitting it to an audience of many tens of thousands of people.

      This is blasphemy! This is madness!

  13. Branding by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Branding is what corporations use to add perceived value to merchandise. People will pay more for "Disney" brand shoes than the same shoe with "Bob" brand. Disney might not even sell the shoe, Bob may have paid Disney for use of it's brand.
    Alternately, Bob could make better shoes to add value to it's shoes. Unfortunately, the consumer can't always see this value. People won't pay more for unperceived value. Unless Bob wants to build his brand as a high quality product, he can make more money paying Disney for their logo

    This would be difficult to apply to "Free Software", because there's so much of it out there, of mixed quality. If it ever took off, and people began associating "Free Software" with quality, anyone could misappropriate the brand, and it's perceived value would fall.

    A new brand is in order. Something like LibertySoft(tm) or FSFsoft(tm) that would apply to projects that met certain levels of quality and had a free enough license. Some organization like the FSF would have to own the trademark, and police misuses of the brand.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:Branding by ivucica · · Score: 1

      You mean something like GNU (although it's not a trademark and isn't policed)?

    2. Re:Branding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People will pay more for "Disney" brand shoes than the same shoe with "Bob" brand.

      I'd pay a lot for a "Bob" brand of shoes, except the SubGenius CafePress site does not offer them.

  14. And what would that brand teach people? by jbn-o · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Name-calling and quarrelling on either side is not helpful, and serves to hide the common base and interest in having a strong brand and powerful message.

    Then let's hope the Open Source Initiative's days of calling free software activism "ideological tub-thumping" are behind them. I don't see branding as a means of teaching people about software freedom (the very thing the OSI doesn't talk about in their belief that businesses don't want to hear about user's freedoms), but I'm happy to learn about branding efforts that explicitly teach people about supporting software freedom for its own sake and defending it for future generations so as to build and maintain social solidarity. My experience is that efforts aimed at branding something typically aim for narrow commercial interests: convenience, ease-of-use, and reliability. These things are not bad but they are insufficient for teaching people to value the freedoms to run, share, and modify computer software; those values were chosen to meet the needs of proprietors—the people and organizations that don't respect software freedom.

    When it comes to teaching freedom, I don't have the trouble some say they have. I used to host a call-in radio show talking about free software and related issues. I didn't have problems explaining the philosophical difference between free software and open source nor did I have objections to playing various talks by people who went into the implications of this philosophical difference. More recently, I find that the essay "Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software" to be an excellent and not at all insulting essay on the philosophical differences between free software and open source. One of the essay's points that comes up repeatedly is how people who identify with each movement react in the face of powerful proprietary software. Open source advocates would go along with the proprietor, free software activists would reject the proprietor and work on something that would do the same job but respect user's software freedoms:

    The idea of open source is that allowing users to change and redistribute the software will make it more powerful and reliable. But this is not guaranteed. Developers of proprietary software are not necessarily incompetent. Sometimes they produce a program which is powerful and reliable, even though it does not respect the users' freedom. How will free software activists and open source enthusiasts react to that?

    A pure open source enthusiast, one that is not at all influenced by the ideals of free software, will say, "I am surprised you were able to make the program work so well without using our development model, but you did. How can I get a copy?" This attitude will reward schemes that take away our freedom, leading to its loss.

    The free software activist will say, "Your program is very attractive, but not at the price of my freedom. So I have to do without it. Instead I will support a project to develop a free replacement." If we value our freedom, we can act to maintain and defend it.

    I have to wonder what message any brand sends before I can agree to go along with it. The FSFE essay doesn't make that clear, despite the call to action in the third paragraph from the end.

    1. Re:And what would that brand teach people? by petrus4 · · Score: 1

      Then let's hope the Open Source Initiative's days of calling free software
      activism "ideological tub-thumping" are behind them. I don't see branding as a
      means of teaching people about software freedom (the very thing the OSI
      doesn't talk about in their belief that businesses don't want to hear about
      user's freedoms), but I'm happy to learn about branding efforts that
      explicitly teach people about supporting software freedom for its own sake and
      defending it for future generations so as to build and maintain social
      solidarity.

      You go on to talk about how great the FSF's comparitive "Free Software/Open
      Source," essay is.

      While I'm never going to try and argue with anyone that ethics aren't
      important, there is a sad fact here which the FSF itself doesn't want to
      acknowledge; and that is that focusing on ethics as a primary argument with
      most people quite simply is not going to work.

      This is one of the main problems which Stallman as an individual, and
      subsequently the FSF as an organisation, has; the fact that they are entirely
      unwilling to adapt their methodology to what will work, in the event
      that their unsuccessful methodology is simply closer to their existing belief
      system. The FSF doesn't try and create common ground between what it believes
      in and what other people want; it simply rejects what anyone else wants and
      tries to shove its' views down other people's throats, whether they are in
      fact willing to accept them or not.

      The point of the approach described by Eric Raymond and a few other people, is
      not actually to lose sight of the cause at all, but to initially
      allow the effects to stand on their own as tangible manifestations of the
      cause. The effects (technically superior software) can then be seen as
      tangible byproducts of the cause, and once you have that, then you've
      got some chance of being able to explain to people that said effects are the
      result of adhering to solid ethical principles. Solid principles are
      important everywhere, yes; both inside software development and outside it.

      It's film screenwriting 101, though; when producing a film for a general
      audience, the first thing you do at the start of it is an action scene in
      order to hold interest. Once you've captured interest, exposition can (and
      should) immediately follow; but if you don't capture interest, you're very
      likely to be ignored.

      Neurotypical superficiality really sucks; I will admit it as freely as anyone.
      However, as much as it might suck, it's also an unavoidable fact of life; it's
      not going away. The only thing ignoring it or resisting it is going to do is
      get us ignored. We have to figure out how to go through it in order to
      get our message heard; and it really is not all that difficult.

      Use Compiz Fusion, and other related things. Generate some pretty lights, and
      make tangible displays of how technically superior Open Source is to anything
      from Microsoft.

      Neurotypicals demand that, and they're as uncompromising in their demand for
      it as Stallman is in his rhetoric. The reason why is because their defining
      neurological characteristic, in many cases, is being right brained. Hence,
      they need to see graphical representations of things, because that's how they
      communicate. Most of us, on the other hand, are left brained; so we can sit
      and talk about ethical abstractions for hours on end and not have a problem
      with it; no visual imagery anywhere in sight.

      This is also the exact reason why I can sit here with nothing but ratpoison,
      vim, and Vimperator with Firefox, when they need GNOME, a Start menu,
      and Nautilus/Konqueror. The CLI scares the hell out of them because it
      literally isn't how their brain primarily functions.

      If the FSF wants to be genuinely useful, it needs to figure out how to
      communicate with the neurotypical population on their own terms. That
      is exact

    2. Re:And what would that brand teach people? by ricegf · · Score: 1

      focusing on ethics as a primary argument with most people quite simply is not going to work

      Focusing on ethics is likely to work if your goal is to promote ethical software. It's kind of hard to imagine anything else working, actually.

    3. Re:And what would that brand teach people? by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      People say that they want to focus on the open source development ideology first then the freedom later, but they never specify when the freedom part should come in and they never get around to teaching the freedom part. As more incidents happen where freedom is a great answer to the underlying problem (anything concerning digital restrictions management, for instance) I'm convinced that ordering one's approach in that way is a huge mistake for the pursuit of software freedom. So I am not convinced that a freedom-later approach is anything but a way to push freedom aside entirely. Richard Stallman addressed this point at FISL7 when an unnamed questioner and Michael Tiemann asked Stallman about this point:

      Unnamed Questioner: Last year, Eric Raymond came to FISL and said that [the] Free Software Foundation didn't like [the] Open Source Initiative though they-

      Richard Stallman: That's true.

      Unnamed Questioner: [laughs] -though they wanted to be friendly and work together.

      RMS: Well, their idea of working together is that together we should advocate just what we have in common, and what we have in common happens to be their position. The reason is the philosophy of free software, of the free software movement which I founded in 1983, focuses on freedom and community; on human rights for software users. Open source was founded in 1998 as a way to stop talking about those things, to hush them up, bury them, put them out of people's sight. So they talk about practical advantages that come if you use free software. Well, I also talk about practical advantages in my speeches. So here's what I say, and here's the part they say. Except that they've gone in more depth on it, and that is useful. You know, making the case to businesses that they'll get some practical advantage out of releasing, under usually a free software license. That's useful. But the point is, it's still a more superficial part of the issue. So what they're really saying is they want to cooperate and they wish we would cooperate by forgetting about what we consider the most important thing and joining them in saying only the superficial part. This is the way Eric Raymond puts it; he's very clever at asking us to abandon the most important thing and making it sound like he's only being reasonable.

      Later, Michael Tiemann says the following in response to RMS' statement on Raymond:

      Michael Tiemann: Hi Richard, I just wanted to follow up on the question you were asked earlier about Eric Raymond. I wanted to point out a fact: which is that while Eric Raymond was formerly the president of the OSI he no longer is. Eric does speak for himself but less and less for the OSI. I would also like to clarify that as president of the OSI I have always supported the GPL as a model license for developers. It's the license-it's the only license I have chosen to work under other than the LGPL for my own programming. And I recognize your position, which is to say that if I am not talking about freedom first and foremost I am burying freedom but I think myself differently-

      RMS: Well, you might be doing something in between. There are things in between. When Eric Raymond was the president of the OSI I could perceive this intention to bury talk of freedom very clearly, and there are others who talk about open source and clearly are trying to bury talk of freedom. That doesn't apply to everyone who uses the term ["open source"]. What is true of their use of the term is that it generally doesn't call attention to freedom very much.

      Tiemann: But in this conference I do want to support that what you are doing is incredibly valuable and I respect it tremendously.

      RMS: Well thank you.

      Also, when it comes to being practical, it's notable that the most widely used free software licenses is the GNU GPL. People also seem to use other GNU licenses a lot also. So I am not con

    4. Re:And what would that brand teach people? by petrus4 · · Score: 1

      Open source was founded in 1998 as a way to stop talking about those things, to hush them up, bury them, put them out of people's sight. So they talk about practical advantages that come if you use free software.

      (From Stallman's speech)

      This is quite simply not true. The definition of what constitutes Open Source is right here, and I've virtually never seen Linus give an interview where he doesn't mention the GPL, or specifically why he likes it.

      You can also read this, as well. People who advocate licenses other than the GPL are perhaps not as vocal as Stallman, but to claim that they are actively repressing or trying to bury anything is a lie, and a particularly malicious and injurious one.

    5. Re:And what would that brand teach people? by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      Advocating the use of the GPL is not necessarily advocating for the social solidarity at the heart of software freedom. Linus Torvalds, for example, doesn't like software freedom and uses the GPL because it achieves his technical ends best not because it helps people organize around social principles of mutual aid and defending the freedom to share and modify. Initially the kernel Torvalds developed wasn't under the GPL, Torvalds initially licensed his kernel under a non-free license. You can also see Torvalds non-freedom mindset in how Torvalds doesn't mind what Stallman and others refer to as "Tivoization" in reference to the Tivo's DRM which prevents one from running a modified Linux kernel their own Tivo device. Torvalds doesn't even want GNU to share in the credit he unfairly exclusively receives when people call an OS with the Linux kernel "a Linux system". Torvalds maintains an illogical argument where giving GNU a share of the credit is somehow confusing, when actually GNU/Linux a far more technically accurate and fair-minded name for systems that are the union of the GNU OS with the Linux kernel. How many major players you want to name is up to you, but it seems unfair to leave GNU off in these instances. This is a position Torvalds grew into as more people were willing to give him sole credit for an entire OS (most of which he did not write). Torvalds was initially willing to recognize a system called GNU. The GNU project wants us to recall GNU when we're talking about a GNU system so it helps bring software freedom to mind.

      There is no mention of software freedom in the definition of "open source" as published by the OSI. In fact, as I point out in the article I linked to, for most of the OSI website's existence it used namecalling to refer to freedom activism ("ideological tub-thumping"). I look forward to OSI explicitly advocating for freedom for its own sake but I don't see that going on.

      But if you must conflate GPL use with supporting software freedom, the link you point to is unconvincing. That link is a remarkably poorly written essay entitled "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project". So not only does it make reference to the wrong movement to talk about software freedom, it encourages readers away from using the GNU GPL. The essay says nothing of social solidarity, software freedom; nothing about the ethical underpinnings of the free software movement. Instead, the essay directs readers toward a license which purposefully does nothing to preserve software freedom for derivative works, (and now under GPLv3) protect users from patent lawsuits, or automatically restoring license rights upon correcting violations (violators must beg the copyright holder to get their rights back under the modified BSD license whereas under GPLv3 they can automatically get their rights back in certain circumstances). On top of that, the description of the GPL is wrong: the GPL has never said that "any modifications that were made to a GPL program were required to be given back to the GPL community". One may make private modifications to GPL'd works and use them. The GPL requires distributing complete corresponding source code upon distribution/conveyance not modification. Apparently the author isn't aware that licenses which deny private modifications and private use of those modifications are not free software licenses. That essay also erroneously claims that "any program that used or linked to GPL code was required to be under the GPL": mere use is not controllable via copyright license without a license manager (which, thanks to the freedoms the GPL protects for its users, can be edited out of any GPL'd programs that have them) and the GPL doesn't attempt to govern mere use of a GPL'd program. Programs which call GPL'd programs via the fork and exec system (or equivalents elsewhere) are not derivative works; so proprietary programs can call GPL'd programs without becoming GPL'd programs themselves. The essay you link to also mixes up the terms "commercial"

  15. Careful! by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Who started the bickering over the FS vs OSS terms? None other than Richard Stallman himself. It's his brands he wants promoted at the expense of other brands. There is no Linux, it is instead GNU/Linux. It's not Open Source it's Free Software. He has started both those controversies and continues to fan their flames.

    So be careful with your heresies, or the FSF may excommunicate the FSFE.

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    1. Re:Careful! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There is no Linux? Without Linux, GNU would not run at all. All GNU software needs an Operating System to work. It can be a microkernel-structured OS or then just one giant monolith OS. Linux just happend to be there like the old fashion Unix OS'es, a monolithic. GNU does not have it's own OS, Hurd ready yet. So stop spreading FUD and propaganda of GNU/Linux and focus to facts to just call it Linux.

      You can call those complete software systems aka distributions what ever you want, like Ubuntu or Mandriva. But do not mistake them to OS's either!

      So yes, RMS was the person who started whole anti-open source with his own political fame hunting for GNU project what he started. Same time he doomed it to suffer years from fighting when people were just GNU or Not-GNU questioning. Without knowledge of technology itself.

      And now the state has new player who will ruin all. It is Ubuntu what gives people a illusion that Canonical invented free software and wants to give a free operating system for them. Canonical speaks about GNU/Linux and debian littlebit, but takes all the fame for itself as "humanity to others".

      If we want to win and bring people the open source, we need to stop fighting among selfs. Just understand that we all use one OS, with multiple choises and we care about the code quality and we want to offer best support for software what we want to be libre!

    2. Re:Careful! by skeeto · · Score: 1

      Who started the bickering over the FS vs OSS terms? None other than Richard Stallman himself.

      Since the term "Free Software" is more than a decade older than "Open Source" you have that backwards.

    3. Re:Careful! by crayne · · Score: 2, Informative

      Without Linux, GNU would not run at all. All GNU software needs an Operating System to work

      Linux is not an operating system, it is a kernel; together the GNU tools and Linux make up an operating system.

    4. Re:Careful! by ivucica · · Score: 1

      Except "free software" is RMS's original name. He just refused to accept a new name. Although otherwise, your point stands -- it's perhaps harmful that the flames are continuously flamed.

      ...or maybe not.

    5. Re:Careful! by petrus4 · · Score: 1

      Linux is not an operating system, it is a kernel; together the GNU tools and Linux make up an operating system.

      Yes, and for 6 years the FSF were unable to get their own kernel working.

      Stop trivialising the importance of the kernel simply so that Stallman can claim universal credit for everything.

      Also, try using your own brain while you're at it. The distortions and outright lies which the FSF peddles wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the number of drones going around who regurgitate them wholesale.

    6. Re:Careful! by QuestionsNotAnswers · · Score: 1

      It is a shame RMS seems to spend a lot of time talking about Linus and Linux in a manner that is divisive rather than collaborative.

      RMS comes across to me as having a bruised ego because Linux has powerful brand recognition, while GNU doesn't. Also it may be because Linus is better at collaboration than RMS.

      Perhaps he did not start the controversy, but he definitely keeps it alive, although fortunately Linus doesn't feed it.

      --
      Happy moony
    7. Re:Careful! by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      WTF? It's not about the age, it's about who first started bitching and whining about the other guy's name. That person happened to be Richard M. Stallman.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    8. Re:Careful! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete Unix-like operating system which is free software: the GNU system. By 1991, the GNU system was nearly complete as it was lacking one critical component: the OS kernel. During that time, Linus Torvalds wrote and published a free OS kernel and it was named Linux. Some people then had the bright idea of combining the GNU system together with the Linux system to form a complete system.

      Remember the kernel is one part of the system. It is critically important but it remains only one part. Nobody is trivializing the importance of the kernel which is why we promote the term GNU/Linux. Today, we ask people to recognise both GNU's and Linux's contribution to the system as they are the **two most fundamental** components of the GNU/Linux system.

    9. Re:Careful! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sigh... Dude, please either do get your facts straight or don't post here! Linux came so much later than GNU. Open source came so much later than Free Software. Stallman is the chicken and the egg. Of course you can call a cat a dog but it makes no sense. Think that I was about to apply for a job at FSFE...

      Maybe FSFE should rename to OSIE.

    10. Re:Careful! by crayne · · Score: 1

      Whoa, hold on there buddy. I was simply stating fact. The parent poster completely confused his terminology. You're reaction was completely irrational, but amusing.

  16. impossible utopian dream by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    not going to happen, people are going to critisize software on occasion, and there are going to be forks, and rejections, for example slackware discontinued including gnome, Torvalds bad-mouthed it and later started using gnome again and now dislikes kde4.

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  17. I don't think they're the same... by Qubit · · Score: 1

    Look at the Open Source Definition and compare that with the Free Software Definition. I'm using the definitions from OSI and the FSF because, for all intents and purposes, I think that they have a reasonable claim on defining the corresponding term.

    There are some licenses that are OSI-certified but not Free Software Licenses (according to the FSF). These include:

    * The NASA Open Source Agreement, version 1.3
    * The Reciprocal Public License

    I'm also a bit wary of this part of the OSD:

    The license may restrict source-code from being distributed in modified form only if the license allows the distribution of "patch files" with the source code for the purpose of modifying the program at build time.

    So that's saying that a license could be Open Source and not allow the distribution of patched files? That seems like a bizarre restriction. Their explanation doesn't really sell me:

    Rationale: Encouraging lots of improvement is a good thing, but users have a right to know who is responsible for the software they are using. Authors and maintainers have reciprocal right to know what they're being asked to support and protect their reputations.

    Accordingly, an open-source license must guarantee that source be readily available, but may require that it be distributed as pristine base sources plus patches. In this way, "unofficial" changes can be made available but readily distinguished from the base source.

    The problems with this is that "distribution" can mean any conveyance. So that could mean that to install a program under such a license on a system, you might be required to patch and then compile the code on the actual device. Woe betide anyone who distributes code cross-compiled for a very low power handheld device that doesn't have much in the way of dev tools or system resources. Forget about checking your patched files into a publicly-accessible repository. And if you want to have a web viewer to look at the code, you better be using client-side javascript to do the patching or face the prospect of being in violation of "distribution" laws when you send a pre-patched filed across the Intertubes from your server to the user's browser.

    It makes perfect sense to say "If you change this, you can't use our official name for it." I mean, if you bought a can of vegetarian beans and mixed in beef fat, you couldn't just turn around and sell it with the original packaging as you'd be misrepresenting the product. Similarly, if you take the MediaWiki codebase and mix in a few lines of your own code you can't tell people it's stock MediaWiki code. You can tell people that it's based on that codebase, or that you've only change 10 lines, or any other factual statement, but you can't misrepresent the item.

    A much more sane rule (which is perhaps still too restrictive for Free Software) would be to request that distributors of modified code offer people the ability to see the diffs as well as the final (changed) code. That way you could take any code and change it and distribute it, but if a user asked for it, you'd need to show them the diffs between what you got from upstream and the changes you made. This would be especially important if the upstream distribution point disappears. For most FOSS projects today, people are using distributed version control like Git, Mercurial, Bazaar, etc... , so anyone can trivially get the diffs by just checking out the repo and looking at the patches.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
    1. Re:I don't think they're the same... by z121212mlmiac · · Score: 1

      The FSF considers the QPL a free software licence, even if such distribution restrictions are not explicitly stated in their definition.

    2. Re:I don't think they're the same... by Qubit · · Score: 1

      The FSF considers the QPL a free software licence

      Hmm... that's interesting. I mean they do point out the inherent difficulties and suggest a different license...

      It also causes major practical inconvenience, because modified sources can only be distributed as patches.

      ...but as you said, the FSF does consider this a Free Software licenses. Still, I'm not sold that this (and other patches-alongside-original-source licenses) should be considered a Free Software license. The FSF's definition of Free Software states:

      The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs

      And the GPLv2 states:

      The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.

      And we can even quote the OSI definition:

      The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program. Deliberately obfuscated source code is not allowed. Intermediate forms such as the output of a preprocessor or translator are not allowed.

      Programmers don't work on patches, they work on patched code. Sure, Linus merges tons of patches into the main kernel branch all the time, but he's reviewing code one patch at a time and then collapsing that work down into a single file -- just like graphic artists flatten the layers in a multi-layer image file.

      Given the way that something like Git works -- as a bunch of patches stacked together -- perhaps one could creatively argue that use of a Git repo could be a valid way to distribute source code under this license. But the fact that we have to reach that far in order to satisfy the license indicates to me that this license is not trying to be a Free Software license. The original creators and developers always can relicense the code however they wish, and so in that respect they have more power than subsequent developers, but to encode such inequality into the license itself -- especially when the original developers may only write 1% of the code in the final product -- seems contrary to the ideals of Free Software.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
  18. The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by MarkvW · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In bicycle racing oftentimes a group of people zoom out ahead of the pack (the peloton) and try to race to the front.

    The only way those people can even hope to get to the end before the peloton is if they work together and share the aerodynamic load of breaking the wind. Sometimes they work together harmoniously right to almost the very end--then they race it out between themselves.

    Most times though, for various tactical reasons, they get squirreley with each other and refuse to cooperate evenly to maximize speed. While they're squirreling around, the peloton bears down on them and swallows them up.

    BSD and GNU are on a breakaway from closed source software. They each want an ecosystem where sharing and cooperation are the primary values. They each take different routes. BND is not as radical as GNU, but GNU does more to hamper closed software. Nevertheless, they are each in a breakaway from the closed source peloton.

    Mindshare gains are to not accomplished by wasting energy squabbling with your logical ally. AFTER sufficient mindshare has been won from closed source--then squabble and be stupid if you want to! But meanwhile--cooperate on the breakaway!!!! It makes for a better race!!

    1. Re:The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by Qubit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mindshare gains are to not accomplished by wasting energy squabbling with your logical ally. AFTER sufficient mindshare has been won from closed source--then squabble and be stupid if you want to! But meanwhile--cooperate on the breakaway!!!! It makes for a better race!!

      There's a lot of cooperation between the BSD and the GNU/Linux people. At least I think that there is. And there are a lot of people who call themselves "Open Source Programmers" who cooperate well with people who call themselves "Free Software Programmers".

      But at the end of the day the differences that I observe, personally, is that people that tend to use the term "Open Source" have a certain mentality that opening the source code is a useful business model, while people that use the term "Free Software" have more of a belief in the general freedoms to read, modify, and share software.

      As such, I don't think that you'll ever hear Microsoft or Apple talk about how they're contributing to the Free Software community. They'll always use the term Open Source because (again, my opinion) they don't believe in Free Software as a corporation. I mean, how could they and still sell MS-Windows and OSX?

      Anyhow, just an observation.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    2. Re:The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by Braino420 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mindshare gains are to not accomplished by wasting energy squabbling with your logical ally. AFTER sufficient mindshare has been won from closed source--then squabble and be stupid if you want to! But meanwhile--cooperate on the breakaway!!!! It makes for a better race!!

      That's really inspiring and stuff, but, like all analogies, leaves some things out. This is why analogies are a tool for explaining things, not for coming to some logical conclusion (there is no Proof by Analogy in discrete math). Many of the OSI crowd just really don't care how close the dreaded "proprietary software" comes to competing with them, they just want to do their thing the best way they know how. Wiping out proprietary software is the goal of the FSF guys, it's a side effect for the OSI guys.

      And what is all of this "wasted energy" nonsense? How is having ideological discussions wasted energy? These users of software, for the most part, don't really care what their software is licensed under. This is something that's really only discussed by the developers of software (and possibly their employers), and so maybe if the OSI and FSF were to join forces to get the proprietary software devs, this might make sense. But I don't see discussion of ideologies as something that hampers the use of F/OSS.

      On top of this, I see most of the animosity from the FSF side; they are the ones who are all hung up on ideology and get angry when people *gasp* even explain how to install proprietary software. I know, it's not fair to equate RMS' ideology with that of the entire FSF organization, but he /is/ on /your/ side.

      --
      They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am
    3. Re:The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by cptdondo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember watching the TDF a few years ago. There was a breakaway that opened up a huge gap. As the kilometers wore on, riders who couldn't keep the pace dropped from the breakaway and got swallowed by the peleton. Finally, there were just two riders left. They knew one would take the stage. At the 1KM banner, they slowed, shook hands, and each went for the finish.

      First cooperation, then competition.

    4. Re:The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. This book Copy, Rip, Burn: The Politics of Copyleft and Open Source is a good discussion of it.. There's a lot more to the debate under the surface.

      -

      --sorry if posted twice but my laptop die--

    5. Re:The Bike Race Breakaway Metaphor by ricegf · · Score: 1

      Oddly, I've had the opposite experience. It's the BSD zealots that keep insisting that their software is "more free" than GPL, because you can even make it non-free (and they believe that is a good thing, because it means more people may use their software). Most of the GPL zealots tend more toward "we don't care who uses our software, because it's freedom that's important, not popularity". This comes across (to me, at least) as much less strident, not to mention more convincing.

      Like all anecdotal evidence, of course, this proves nothing - but it is my experience nonetheless.

  19. Does the divide really hurt that much? by migla · · Score: 1

    FS and OSS developers and users come together just fine developing and promoting FOSS, don't they?

    Like the PFJ, the JPF and the Popular Front, they may be a divided bunch ideologically, but does it really matter much in the case of FOSS?

    (Unlike with the fictional or non-fictional leftist groups, where a divide certainly has hurt their common cause.)

    Any anecdotes or anything to show how the divide actually hurts?

    (If there's examples in the article, I apologize for not reading it)

    --
    Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
  20. Bruce Perens' take by CarpetShark · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it's pretty clear what RMS would say, and (hopefully) why.

    What's more interesting is Bruce Perens' take on it. Bruce founded the Open Source Institute with Eric S. Raymond, but Bruce himself has stated that "it's time to talk about Free Software again" as opposed to Open Source, due to the unintended conceptual dilution that Open Source has been exposed to.

  21. Excellent Points by Fantom42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This guy makes some excellent points that will no doubt fall upon many deaf ears.

    And to be honest its safe to ignore people like this if you are a hobbyist and don't care whether you will continue to have hardware support for your hobby machine. After all, you can just have some fun reverse engineering the drivers you need.

    The only reason to care about branding for open source and free software is if you actually expect businesses to embrace it and invest resources in developing things that work with it. You know, to enable doing the kinds of things people have come to expect to be able to do with a desktop computer.

    I remember a time when it was a fair challenge to get much more than vga out of xfree86 due to lack of drivers, and when many modems and ethernet cards simply didn't work in Linux. Printers same thing. Forget about a scanner or digital camera. It was a pain in the butt for anyone with aspirations to actually have a desktop useful for much more than tinkering with itself. This has always been a limitation of open source. Things have gotten much better. And for things to continue to get better, the community should put some effort into thinking about others' perceptions of open source and trying to improve them. This is how people (including executives with very little technical interest or knowledge) make decisions end up impacting our community.

  22. Loosely translated... by TrebleJunkie · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Somebody please tell RMS to StFU."

    --

    Ed R.Zahurak

    You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.

  23. Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't call it "Open Source", but call it by its proper name - Free Software. When you say "Open" or "Closed", you imply that Freedom is not important.

  24. Why I Dislike "Marketing" by causality · · Score: 1

    But there is a brand whether or not it's intentionally created. The output of this "random barbarian horde of software developers" all falls under a single label, "open source", and therefore has the "open source" brand. He describes a brand as being "anyone's gut feeling". In other words, what is it that people think of when they hear "open source software"? Well, that's the brand. It may not have been shaped by anyone intentionally, but it still exists. So, he wants to shape it.

    He also makes the point that the de facto brand is actually shaped by those who compete with open source. Microsoft, for example, shapes the open source brand through its marketing. Therefore, by not making a concerted effort to shape the brand in a positive way, the community is effectively allowing it to be shaped in a negative way.

    All of that sounds to me like a substitute for evaluating the merits of all of your available software options and making your own decision based on your needs.

    There's only one problem, one fatal flaw: there is no substitute for that. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    1. Re:Why I Dislike "Marketing" by Rary · · Score: 1

      All of that sounds to me like a substitute for evaluating the merits of all of your available software options and making your own decision based on your needs.

      It would be great if 100% of all decisions were based on that kind of rational analysis. Unfortunately, there's one problem: people.

      People are subject to bias. People "go with their gut". And people's "gut" can be influenced.

      You may dislike marketing, but there's a simple reason companies spend boatloads of money on it: it works. People can be influenced. And people are being influenced, in one way or another, with respect to their views of open software.

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    2. Re:Why I Dislike "Marketing" by causality · · Score: 1

      It would be great if 100% of all decisions were based on that kind of rational analysis. Unfortunately, there's one problem: people.

      People who are making choices, mostly by the failure to realize that not making a choice is also a choice. People who can choose differently and who can stop being their own worst enemies when it comes to looking out for their own interests and making good decisions. I refuse to accept the status quo as immutable, in other words. It can change, and it will change the moment people want it to. Also, not everything lends itself to rational analysis, but computers and software certainly do.

      You may dislike marketing, but there's a simple reason companies spend boatloads of money on it: it works. People can be influenced.

      I agree that it works and I don't dislike it because it works. I dislike it because it works for all of the wrong reasons. It tends to exploit personal weaknesses and character flaws far more than it ever tends to appeal to facts and reason.

      The reasons why marketing works are often presented as natural tendencies that are the inevitable result of being human. They're not. They are carefully cultivated by public education, media, corporations, and government and are then presented as normal and natural. It isn't just that people are not taught critical thinking, argumentation, and self-evaluation; it's that they are actively encouraged not to use these tools. Thus, in order to discuss this accurately, we are talking about "influence" and not about "persuasion".

      To me, the Yellow Pages are as close to "perfect advertising" as it gets: you aren't bombarded with it, it's not loud and obnoxious, you only see it when you go looking for it, and you can quickly find what you're after.

      And people are being influenced, in one way or another, with respect to their views of open software.

      My views of Open Source software come from one source: actually using and administering it on my own equipment. Prior to that, it came from careful investigation and comparsion between it and the Windows system I was using at the time. I'd rather see us encourage this method than try to come up with clever branding and marketing techniques, and I'd rather see that even if it means Linux will always remain a small minority of desktop installations.

      I liken to greed any approach that consists of trying to get masses of people to flock to Linux or Open Source in general at any cost. That kind of thinking made Windows the mass-market product that it is with all of the problems that go along with it and the lack of involvement with their own choices that its users are well known for exhibiting ("I can't learn a few easy steps because I'm not some kind of geek or computer expert" etc). Here I am not talking about the technical merits of the OS, for that is not directly related to the marketing, but rather, the culture that goes along with it. That culture is much more responsible for the malware problems that plague Windows than any technical feature or design decision that Microsoft made.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  25. almost right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There was 5 major christian churches of which the roman was one.
    Dont mix the catholic or orthodox description yet at this point.

    When one person leaves a group of 5, we say they broke off. Which is what the church of rome did. A split would mean the other 4 went their own way which is false.
    Rome basically forked from christianity which was rather like open source in that sense.
    Its a roman rewrite of the laws the other churches and their descendant churches (the slav churches have come from the greek branch, the middle east ones from the syrian ones) that resulted in things like changing of things like marriage for priests (Rome after allowingit for centuries forbade it with the problems we know while the other christian churches wont give a parrish to an unmarried priest).`
    Actually Rome is using a BSD license while the other original (or orthodox) and their descendant churches where more free software)
    and there is mingling among them. (my greek friend Niko married a russian girl and their ceremonies are identical except for the native language used).

    Later on, you can read the account you prefer as to why the church of england was created (and read why Gnome was created when KDE already existed) and how.

  26. We need to unite by unity100 · · Score: 1

    there are a lot of real enemies around. ranging from patent trolls to derelict distribution companies buying legislation. we can stand united against them. we have to.

  27. Barbarian Horde software by fyoder · · Score: 1

    Open source is a random barbarian horde of software developers.

    Okay, there's your brand, "Barbarian Horde". Someone else suggested "Hippyware". For some reason, I find myself thinking of gypsies. All of which suggests not that the thing is unbrandable, but that it's really challenging to come up with a brand that would appeal to business and normals. It would be nice if it also appealed to counter-culture types, but that just makes the problem even harder.

    --
    Loose lips lose spit.
  28. I don't get this. by DeVilla · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Wait. This is the FSFE. They have something to do with the FSF, right?

    We should realize that what divides us pales in comparison to what we have in common and that division and exclusion are harmful to us all. So we should reign in the name-callers on either side, and empower those people who know how to build cooperation, corporations, and positive feedback loops.

    Ok. You first. Muzzle Richard and get back to us on how well that goes.

    Thanks

  29. Herding Cats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Getting FOSSies to work together is as futile as herding cats.

    When they are close to a concensus on an operating system, or at least anything else... at least one person will fork the project.

    1. Re:Herding Cats by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      You have no idea how anatomically correct your metaphor is don't you?

  30. STFU. first go RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kaiser will have his way!

  31. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GPL v2 does not allow for additional restrictions.

    1. Re:Bullshit by andy.ruddock · · Score: 1

      What restrictions? I said that the GPLv2 does not prevent further distribution, ie does not impose further restrictions - your comprehension skills suck.

      --
      God: An invisible friend for grown-ups.
  32. Free software politics and opensource politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both are equally dirty in their own richly varied ways.

    In the first case, you get roughed up by bearded towering personalities.
    In the second case, you get cheated by balding influential technocrats who claim to have reinvented computing and databases.

    Hackers have long memories. And, it works both ways.

    Of course false enemies and false friends alternate swiftly too.
    As the wise ancients say "Rich and varied complexity called life".
    Hence, a burnt child dreads the fire. Once burnt twice shy, twice burnt silent cry.
    The place is simply too hostile in almost every case.

    What is a newcomer, all fired up and ready to work supposed to do, when the movement is lead by a cannibalistic Hydra?

  33. Flying Free and Flying High by westlake · · Score: 1

    no one I've spoken to has ever misinterpreted Hippyware. People either know what it means, or they ask. They never walk around thinking it means one thing when it means something else, a problem that both Open Source and Free Software share. Software Libre also works, but Hippyware rolls off the tongue a lot better

    There aren't going to ask, they are going think that you are stoned. Which strikes me as a perfectly normal reaction to geek-speak.

    Software not in the public domain comes with restrictions on its use and distribution. Free-as-in-Beer.

    But not truly free in any larger or more significant way. It's just distribution under another form of private or public license.

    Software Libre is the bumper sticker. The political pin.

    The rallying point for your cause. That the passer-by in Hyde Park hasn't the slightest idea of what the hell it is you are talking about no longer really matters.

    You are totally and happily self-absorbed.

  34. Free Software Geeks are not all Hippies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I prefer Hippyware. Free Software is ambiguous because people think it means software-that-you-don't-pay-for. Open Source is ambiguous because people think it means software-with-source-code-you-can-see (but not necessarily have any right to modify or redistribute). Open Source is also bad marketing, because most people don't care about the source code (although they may care, from a business standpoint, about the associated benefits of having certain rights to the source code).

    In contrast, no one I've spoken to has ever misinterpreted Hippyware. People either know what it means, or they ask. They never walk around thinking it means one thing when it means something else, a problem that both Open Source and Free Software share. Software Libre also works, but Hippyware rolls off the tongue a lot better.

    But the free software movement has very little to do with Hippies. People using Free Software are more likely to be libertarian than to be Hippies, and might be offended by the association (I am).

     

    Why not call it Debian-ware? Unless I'm mistaken, the Debian charter represents the Free Software mindset the best of any distribution. By calling it Debian-ware, not only would we be creating a recognizable brand of software, but we would be increasing the visibility of its most representative distribution. It also rolls off the tongue, and the meaning would be clear to anyone involved with the software. It might require a little more explanation, but would not come baggaged with the idea that the people who use free software are Hippies.

  35. The pragmatist by westlake · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    A pure open source enthusiast..will say, "I am surprised you were able to make the program work so well without using our development model, but you did. How can I get a copy?" This attitude will reward schemes that take away our freedom, leading to its loss.

    The free software activist will say, "Your program is very attractive, but not at the price of my freedom. So I have to do without it

    That solves the problem for the activist.

    Everyone else just wants to watch the movie.

    Their voice counts too.

    Software breaks down into fundamental categories: Programs for your business. Programs for your home.

    Neither environment is much known as a hotbed of political correctness.

    Ideological purity.

    There is simply too much that needs to get done. There are other and a deeper rewards than self-flagellation while hovering over your keyboard.

    The good tool is something to be treasured.

    The cost doesn't matter all that much. That it limits your freedom in some insubstantial and arbritrary way doesn't really matter all that much either.

    The tool can be replaced. What you can't retrieve is time.

  36. I'd be willing to consider burying the hatchet by petrus4 · · Score: 0, Troll

    If the FSF truly wants peace, then despite my admitted level of trolling in
    their direction online in the past, I for one would actually be willing to
    look at reconciliation; however I have some requests which I would like to
    have met as a condition of such, personally.

    - A fundamental recognition of two key facts, which the organisation has been
    apparently unwilling to recognise in the past.

    a) There are individuals in the world which, despite the organisation's best
    efforts to the contrary, adamantly maintain opposing perspectives to that of
    the FSF.

    b) Said individuals have the right to exist. A world in which the FSF's
    perspective was universal would be an extremely unhealthy and unbalanced one,
    and certainly would not be one in which I for one would want to live. The FSF
    does itself no favours when it holds itself as the exclusive arbiter of
    appropriate ethical, social, or economic thought.

    - The muzzling of Richard Stallman. Stallman is a divisive radical, and the
    fundamental source of any problems I've ever had with the FSF. He causes
    conflict, slows progress, and damages the open source community as a whole. He
    is also utterly incapable of any form of compromise.

    - The development of an ability to be realistic about potential threats. I
    am talking here primarily about the supposed bogeyman of DRM. As I
    predicted, the use of Digital Rights Management ultimately went nowhere in the
    marketplace, and this is because the buying public are far more intelligent
    and discerning than the FSF, sadly, tends to give them credit for.

    One area which the FSF badly needs to work on, is its' perception of human
    nature, both in its' positive and negative aspects. This, more than any
    other, is perhaps the single main cognitive area in which the organisation is
    critically lacking. There is an entirely egocentric fixation on what the
    Foundation itself wants, rather than on external reality and what the rest of
    the planet wants; especially considering that these two perspectives are
    opposed far more often than they are in alignment. If the FSF had more of a
    genuine understanding of what the buying public wants, they would have been
    able to pre-emptively recognise that DRM was going to go nowhere, entirely
    without any involvement from them whatsoever, and they could have directed
    their energies to more genuinely productive persuits.

    The Foundation needs to learn to understand that a recognition of both of
    these perspectives, and seeking reconciliation and blending between them, is
    the way forward. Radicalism is not a means of progress, and before any of the
    Foundation's supporters argue that it has worked well enough in the past, they
    would do well to remember that the majority of progress that has been made
    towards the FSF's goals, has not actually been made due to the FSF itself, and
    has in fact been made largely aside from it.

    - A return to the generation of software, rather than activism, as a primary
    focus. Software development was, I feel, not only the FSF's first role, but
    its' most genuinely valuable. I do not (and did not, when it first happened)
    feel that the relinquishment of the GNU Project's development to Red Hat was
    appropriate. The FSF are a non-profit entity, and it makes a lot more sense
    for such an entity to remain as the custodian of the software, than a
    for-profit company.

    - The repeal of version 3 of the General Public License. I strongly suspect
    that this is one request which I am not going to be alone in making. Eben
    Moglen's assurances to the contrary, version 3 of the GPL is something which
    the FSF's radicals more or less alone want. It is not something which, from
    everything I have seen, the majority of either the developer or the user
    communities want.

    Version 2 is a license which, while I perhaps still might not see it as being
    appropriate for *every* situation, is an acceptable and j

  37. That's not a violation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GPL only requires you to provide source to those you have provided software. There is no requirement to offer it to the public. It's funny you sounded like you knew what you were talking about by citing a specific clause. But you goofed anyway.

  38. Open Source Software by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    Freed software, it's Free!

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  39. People prefer "warez" to Open Source. by h00manist · · Score: 1

    Both Linux and "warez" are free. How to change things? Everyone indeed gets bogged down in details, petty issues, etc, and fail to focus on the common objectives and the big picture, still working very hard, thereby accomplishing lots of things, but not the end objectives. People still continue to prefer Windows, reformatting their preinstalled Linux machines with "free" windowz gamez serialz warez? How to change that? "Because they're ______." Not helpful. Even in places where Linux would be favored for the price, people still are tempted to run Windows, whether paid for or not. It's familiar, available, runs the software they want, bending the law a little has no practical consequences. Should Linux techs become friends of the BSA, and start collecting US $1M piracy snitch rewards?. Does gnu/linux/bsd just need more open-source games? Exchange and Outlook clones? Instant messengers? Training programmers and sysadmins? Or just users? Or would a Linux distro with the ability to run Warez better than Microsoft gain so many users and gain X% installed base? How much installed base does microsoft gain from users who never bought anything? How will standard Linux APIs for voice, video, graphics, 3d, and a developers kit come about? However, rather than ponder these difficult questions, a great many will resort to bashing the use of the word "warez", creating more fighting over nothing and accomplishing just that.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  40. Linux is enough of a "brand" by h00manist · · Score: 1

    I agree, I use "linux" as the brand, people recognize it. I describe Open Office, Firefox, and Tremulous as being "from Linux, but ported to Windows". It's enough. The problem, as I see it, is that they _are_ available in windows, and so nobody has any real need to use Linux. In other words, what does Linux do for people, that Windows cannot? Why would they need Linux? To shield them from the illegality of their software? Provide them with more functionality? Which? Torvalds has it right - Linux is, still, in need of more drivers. But I also think it needs to ship with more "fun" apps - games, webcam apps, instant messenger and phone apps, etc - things Windows doesn't come built-in with. Wubi also could be used for a lot more, as a base to a quick-boot linux to run these apps, or others.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  41. If you don't turn onto politics... by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    Proprietors are quite ideologically pure. It's their way or the highway.

    The software isn't just a "tool", thinking that way is a trick proprietors use to get you to forget about freedom concerns or dissuade you from learning about software freedom in the first place. For proprietors the goal is to get you to depend on them forever so they control how you use your computer. This is both profitable and valuable for control (both ends unto themselves).

    As we see more and more with DRM, proprietors want more and more control over every aspect of one's computer use even if it won't make them money. The trick for them is to find out ways to exert that control over users without users noticing the bad sides (cooking the frog slowly), particularly in comparison to the freedom-respecting older technologies (like books).

    Proprietors don't want their would-be customers comparing the old with the new: people might learn that eBooks aren't as freedom-respecting as regular books. Anyone who "just wants to watch the movie" or read the book is disappointed to learn that they're on the wrong side of the tracks (which the proprietor knows via GPS unit data) and the proprietor has disabled their movie from being watched in that area. Or at that time (via a clock in the watching device). Or for users who don't type in the right code, or pay the rent on time. Or based on any other restriction the proprietor deems worthy.

    So this is properly a fight for one's freedoms, and the "hotbed" you describe has existed all along. It's just a matter of making people aware of these political concerns and getting them to understand the consequences of proprietary control/user subjugation.

  42. Insulting and deceiving argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The divide between Open Source and Free Software is not and has never been based on name calling or insignificant quarreling (although there has been plenty of that to go around). The difference between them is freedom, and that will always be important, not matter how much people want to sweep it under a rug.

    I agree that spending time fighting over such things is a waste of resources, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a clear divide between Free Software and non free software. I personally use open source non free software, but I try to be conscious of what that software is and I can say that it's hard enough already to know what is what. It already takes a lot of effort and research to find out what's free and what's not, to blur the lines further would mean forgetting about freedom and using the terms interchangeably and that is a great danger.

    I cannot stress enough that what divides us is freedom and that is no small matter. In fact the difference between Free Software and Open Source is infinitely bigger than the difference between Open Source and gratis proprietary software. And that has been the argument from the Free Software point of view since the beginning, not name calling as mr. Georg Greve is implying.

    And about the branding issue, I think it should be obvious that Free Software cannot be a brand, just as much as Free Speech cannot be one. If speech is free, than we have Free Speech and we can speak freely and listen freely, no matter what content that speech brings or where it comes from. It's the same case with Free Software, there cannot be a brand related with it because it happens spontaneously from infinite potential sources and environments.

    That's why the FSF has never and will never arbitrate about what is or isn't Free Software and the same goes for the GPL. As long as you don't take away any freedom, than it's free by it's very nature, not because of a brand or a license or a community or anything else. The risk here is creating a brand such as Open Source and trying to market the software with that brand as if it was free as if it was the same as all the Free Software that already exists, when in fact it is not and it'll never be, no matter what you call it or what kind of pretty penguin you stamp on it.

  43. Libre Vs Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "There are plenty of false enemies to go around. Ironically, the most common form of false enemy is found around the animosity that has built around branding and framing issues, more specifically in the area of 'Free Software' vs 'Open Source.' Name-calling and quarreling on either side is not helpful, and serves to hide the common base and interest in having a strong brand and powerful message.

    I personally got victimised thanks to the free/libre vs open source . Free Software Foundation Andhra pradesh has a group of volunteers who were aggressive ..and stressed rather heavily on the term "free" as in "freedom" which is quite reasonable IMHO but opposing anything "open source" is very bad to the community . I belong to andhra pradesh but thanks to FSF AP attitude I was more happy with FSF India as whole who were quite understanding when compared to FSF AP .