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Frank Herbert's Moisture Traps May Be a Reality
Omomyid writes "In the seminal science fiction book 'Dune,' Frank Herbert envisioned the Fremen collecting water from the air via moisture traps and dew collectors. Science Daily reprints a press release from the Fraunhofer Institute in Stuttgart, where scientists working with colleagues from Logos Innovationen have developed a closed-loop and self-sustaining method, no external power required, for teasing the humidity out of desert air and into potable water."
In Boy Scouts, years ago, we learned that an easy way to pull moisture from air was to bury (nearly to the brim) a mug in the ground. Moisture would condense on the inside of the mug in the morning and run down the side (because the ground would be colder than the air).
Leaves, etc.
Using natural temperature fluctuations and gravity hardly seems like a hard trick to figure out.
That said, I haven't read the article yet. Perhaps there are giant worms involved.
If you extract moisture from already very dry are do you not create a dead zone down wind?
There is life everywhere in the desert, most of which is tuned to live on very little water, but all of which need water from some source occasionally.
Pushing humans into these areas where the only source of water is minimally moist seems rather pointless and ill advised.
Would it work on mars?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
..now if they can create the stillsuite I can sit at my computer and drink my own urine without having to get up and get a glass of water.
Awesome series, btw.
Really? Is that how they do it?
Amazing what you can carry on the back of a Camel.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Walk without rythm, fellow travelers.
When I was 12 they taught us how to make a moisture trap with a can and some cellophane. Granted we weren't in a desert, but I am surprised if this "new" development surprises anybody.
Hell with the 'white', when 'man' discovers it it's important. Mankind pat itself on the back whenever they figure out how to do something (no matter how poorly) that nature figured out a long time ago. I often think of going back in time and telling the Arabi who invented the magnetic compass - 'hey you know salmon have these in their brain at birth'. He'd be all like "! "
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Aww.../. stripped out my Arabic script. Why are you such ascii-ists /.?
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
What I really need is a droid that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.
So in a decade when these are ubiquitous and most of the world is a desert, suddenly the Fraunhofer Institute will announce they had a patent on this and anyone drinking the water will have to pay licensing fees.
Great, just... great.
Can you give citations for dessert dwellers using brine solutions and vacuum chambers to pull water out of the air in the absence of any material with a temperature below the due point? I won't hold you to the 'thousands of years' part. Last I checked, dessert dwellers didn't do so well with salt water until recently, and then, only industrial scale desalinization projects. If they were using this method, it seems like they should have hit on desalinization a very long time ago.
Or did you not RTFA and thus think it was the trivial survival technique using condensation and gravity during night time hours?
Realities just a bunch of bits.
Isn't this what Luke Skywalker's uncle did for a living? I thought it was a given that you could condense water out of thin air.... My refrigerator does this all the time.
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
I've always wondered. Sure, I could go check a dictionary but then I'd have to figure out the funny symbols.
Please. Dune is fantasy, not science fiction.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
[citation needed]
There was a story posted about fog capture for drinking water -- "fog nets" -- back in 2000 :
Fog Collection As Sustainable Water Source
jdb2
>dessert dwellers
Dessert, eh?
http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF145-Nunez.jpg
present day... present time... hahahaha...
> Frank Herbert's Moisture Traps May Be a Reality
No Kidding. The Jihad is a reality too.
Here in California our snow packs are dwindling year after year, which means our valleys are likely to revert to their natural desert climate. That's where a full third of our nation's food comes from. We might want to consider some windtraps, not growing rice in a desert, or maybe borrow some Australian expertise to do something cool.
hey, at least he used the right form of "desert".
Pardon me while I watch my karma burn.
Name...That...Autocomplete!
Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you meant he would suddenly notice Solid Snake sneaking around his desalinization plant.
Dessert dwellers?
I didn't know people could live inside cakes and bowls of ice cream.
I don't think this will be used on a large enough scale to seriously affect the environment
The problem with this design is it requires electricity, which means expensive solar cells and periodic maintenance to clean them off.
The moisture traps mentioned in Dune already do exist, and are entirely passive. You need an underground chamber with a few vents in the sides, and vent in the top with a chimney. The air rises in the chimney creating a constant flow of air into the chamber, and moisture condenses due to the cooler conditions in the chamber than outside.
Those things are going to need lots of spines.
Do you know why it's illegal to collect rainwater in a barrel in Utah and Colorado? If there is only a gallon of water in the air over an acre of land, removing a quart does in fact change the balance of things.
That's a load of pseudoscience, backing up a law that exists only for revenue, cronyism, and political control. If you store water off your roof or that falls from the sky, and then use it in your home or for irrigation, you're returning that water right back into the water table...in fact, use in the home returns it more effectively, because it is reintroduced a few feet under the soil by your septic system. You're not 'stealing' water- it doesn't go anywhere.
If you want to know the real reason laws like that exist, read The Milagro Beanfield War (annoyingly, that link is about the movie, not the book.) I read it in middle school, and it gave me great insight into how big business pushes citizens around.
Also, you can take a look at what the Israelis are doing to all of the rivers that feed into or border Palestine for a great example of how water is controlled for racial oppression and political power.
Please help metamoderate.
Wonder what the effects of that would be on "climate change". Maybe this is the next great blunder of shit we do to our environment without thinking it through. After all doesn't the desert ecosystem count on collecting water from the air also?. Wheres the liberals screaming about this one?
don't trust them. they'll let the concept out then they'll hit you up for license fees later on.
"its a trap"
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
This method seems to result in pure distilled water which is generally considered harmful as your sole water supply. It's lacking in minerals that the body uses and also will turn acidic naturally. I guess since you're IN a desert though, they could scoop up a few spoonfuls of dirt and mix it in with your nice clear glass of fresh water. :-)
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
I never knew humans lived in salinated desserts before. Could you please tell me more?
Steps:
1. Get water from the air
2. Evaporate brine to extract pure water.
Step 1 could be to get water from the sea. You have some extra salt, but you can deal with that.
?? Profit!! :)
I live in southeastern Australia, and down here, we haven't had regular rainfall now since 1995. Melbourne's water reserves are currently sitting at around 25%. The government's been talking about dredging the Yarra, the city's river, and that is only about a third of peak level at the moment as it is.
This tells me that the long term trend for Victoria is desertification. Queensland is getting floods these days, while we get barely a drop. Unless we're planning on abandoning the entire state, we're going to need technologies exactly like these, in order to be able to continue to live here.
This seems like a more complicated version of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator with a solar panel slapped on them.
Ancient civilizations have had the ability to create water traps in the desert regions of Earth for thousands of years. This is just reinventing the wheel. It may be a useful wheel, but it's still a wheel.
Did you just copy that from /b/?
Good for you, except it isn't trolling /., its still trolling /b/ except now where no one from /b/ will ever read it. I'm pretty sure all their trolls are scripted by now, and generally are at least amusing, or... you know... someone in the flavor of trolling the average /. user.
I'd personally take the "did you hear about the singularity" guy, or the iPhone rectal stimulation guy, it at least is somewhat in the scope of /.
If your going to troll, please put some EFFORT into it.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
When I read this article I was expecting to see another machine based on the ammonia absorption cycle. I was pleasantly surprised to see something new. This is interesting and should be followed to see if it becomes reality.
It's been possible to build an air-water condenser using the ammonia absorption cycle since the 1800s. Blow air across the cold outer surface and the heat exchange causes condensation. A gentleman proposed "oasis machines" which would be a condenser hidden in a decorative pool / fountain from which local villagers could draw water. It was self contained and needed no outside electricity, perhaps solar. He proposed it as a solution to providing water to villagers in Africa, etc. A poster above did mention the problem of the water lacking in mineral nutrients.
fuck you. i can get water out of the air with a sheet of plastic a fair size hole in the ground, and a rock. (google solar still)
I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
Moisture farming!
Forget the still suit, I'm trading my ticket for passage to Alderan for a used land speeder so I can become a moisture farmer!
Now, if I could only find a droid who speaks the binary language of moisture evaporators...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
...in the form of sunlight.
Rest assured, the laws of thermodynamics are still in force.
...was to effectively trap the wind emerging from slashdotters.
Thousands of years of plastic?
I thought he meant the Arab guy would have a quest for him.
It is not about downstream rights, but PRIOR rights. Big difference. Out here in the west, our saying is:
Whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting.
Sadly, it seems like Texans and Easterners want to come here and pollute our water (which we have precious little of).
But all that MAY be changing. We, as individuals, have been prevented from capturing the runoff due to western water law. However, some lawyer and engineers have recently figured out that due to all concrete, farm lands, etc and our attempts to make sure that we obey the law that we are allowing upwards of 33% more water to run off to the east (TX, OK, NE, NM and KS). Colorado is building a case for holding ~33% more of the water based on that. Needless to say, that will produce some SEVERE repercussions here. In addition, Utah is also looking at how much they are losing. They think that it is something like 20% and our western slope sends another 20% to NM, AZ, NV, and CA. If this is true, it will mean that downstream may see a MAJOR cutback over there.
Western water laws are interesting.
Personally, I like the idea of trying to saturate the air over in CA, and the gulf, and working better with the weather patterns to drop more snow and rain over the west. In addition, the larger amount of clouds would block more light from coming.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
A large pile of rocks will do the same thing, pretty much.
http://www.european-pyramids.eu/wb/pages/european-pyramids/greece.php
Same end effect, with no tech. Much cheaper, I'd bet. :)
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
both copyright infigement and [possibly]implementation, 2-in-1, here. btw F Herbert will be proud. maybe.
For 1000's of years, non-white desert dwellers have constructed large towers that deliver 100's of gallons/day -- all automatically powered by the sun -- and no manual effort required...
WOW...
Um, could you cite references?
Most (All, before Dias discovered Cape in 1488) of the goods carried from India and China to Europe. How did you think Chinese sold lowest quality (according to their standards) of earth-ware to your ancestors as "finest in the world" for centuries?
Listening in from WA
From a state that is already 95% desert - also where most of our exports come from (the mines) we could use these.
Currently, water to the Goldfields is pumped 600km from the Hills - an engineering feat in 1902, but also highly energy-hungry. Water from the desert's air? BHP will be mighty pleased...
Wait! Whats a sig?
And how is this different from the evaporation stills I've been using for years? More efficient no doubt, but the concept is still the same, and published in countless survival books.
Actually it's very simple you have a flat sheet of plastic or waterproof material, then hang it up so that one corner is sloping down to some sort of collection media (ie a bottle) and then wait for the hopefully cool night. During the night the material will be cooler than the dew point of the air causing moisture to condense on the material. Once condensed the water will slowly flow down to the collection point. Normally you won't get much water but in some situations the amount collected could be the difference between life and death.
Here is another form of desert water collection that is very cheap if you are near areas which have fogs .
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
Really, they should work on water separators as in the film Waterworld. The volume of water that could be recovered from college beer parties world wide, would be staggering! :)
Sir - My first job was programming binary load lifters... very similar to your vaporators in most respects. ...
I've got some photographs, I'd like to show them to you. Though you don't know the girls You'll recognise the view..
Now where's my stillsuit! :D
I've wanted one of those forever!
Why, if not because?
When I read your post, I was all like "! "
Everybody uses broad generalizations.
...you could easily support 15 people off that same 1 acre.
Here in Queensland, Australia, our water reservoirs were running a little low (less than 17% stored in a system that supplies 1.2million people). The government set a target of 37 gallons per person, which was consistently met for about six months, before we got our first decent rain in four years, which pushed the dams all the way up to 38%. Of course, we've since had a reasonably wet summer, so we're sitting on 75%, so we should be good for another 4-5 years, even without significant rainfall.
Funky charts & graphs here.
Variations on Meme
...of water in the desert air, apparently.
The caretaker of my building in Cairo directs the water that condenses in all of the air-conditioner units in the building into the gardens. While it isn't energy efficient AT ALL, I am always surprised by how much water gets to the garden. And as the weather gets hotter, the residents use their air-con more meaning more water for the garden. Again, it's not energy efficient in any way, but it does save water by reclaiming it from the air, and quite a lot of it.
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
I blame that butterfly in 1995 that flapped its wings and caused rippled effects.
or it could be those greedy farmers in brazil chopping down forrests like its going out of style.
Then again, who knows in a few years we could turn around and get 5x rainfall each year, dont forget
that weather also has long term 30+year cycles too.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Beware, It's a trap !
(sorry)
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
Crysknives are nice because you can dual-wield them with an artifact.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
why not just use solar power to refrigerate the air and condense the water?
Haven't read Dune- but this sounds similar...
Water Mill
Would a water grid to more evenly distribute water be feasible? It works for electricity, why not water?
It might interest /. readers that dirigibles used passive moisture collectors above the engines to collect moisture from the exhaust. This was collected to (partially) counter the weight loss due to the burning of the fuel. Moffett Field, CA has a great Navy museum with models and docents discussing the U.S.S. Macon. Oh, and did I mention they carried bi-planes? Very cool vehicles. Too bad they weren't reliable...
that they try to patent it. Any takers ?
"Collect 10 Intact Salmon Brains and return to me and I'll make you a [Salmon Brain Compass]."
Of course only one out of every 3 salmon have a brain.
The enemies of Democracy are
I'm thinking the power supply is a small diesel engine from a tractor. There appears to be an over abundance of metal used, but that could be "slimed" down later. What I think is most interesting is the location, a place where Artic Circle Testing could accomplished with little transportation costs. Temperatures at Alaska range from the very hot to the very cold. Just a funny thought, what would it look like if one of the Inuit Tribes were to use it to hunt Whale? That would make an entertaining summer movie.
Actually it's very simple you have a flat sheet of plastic or waterproof material, then hang it up so that one corner is sloping down to some sort of collection media (ie a bottle) and then wait for the hopefully cool night.
This is also a method by which you can recycle your own urine (just like Freemen! Or astronauts!) by peeing in a wide hole, putting the collection bucket in the middle, and the plastic over the hole with a rock in the middle. Water from urine evaporates, condenses on plastic, there ya go.
The enemies of Democracy are
Frank Herbert, while speaking in a radio interview on a call-in show around 1984, said that he saw a pilot project of a desert moisture collector while he was doing research as a journalist back in the Sixties.
2 comments:
1) This sounds better suited to desalination. A house on California's beaches or a boat could use this to evaporate ocean water. Current methods use too much electricity.
2) Maintaining a vacuum - how is the vacuum maintained? The sun sets, pausing evaporation. The exit tube drains or dries. Vacuum lost. It seems like there's more to a closed loop, specifically a solar panel, battery, valve, and controller. When the sun sets the valve would shut to keep water in the tube. When evaporation
resumes the valve opens and trickling continues.
Or perhaps there is a power-free mechanical solution where the tube expands for a lot of water and squeezes shut when there is little.
Or long pipe technology.
Move the excess water from Queensland during the floods.
Yes I know it's bloody far. Build some sort of water carrying thing. call it a aqua passage..or a water duct, or some such.
Wait this is Australia. call it a Wazzer-Doodla-Ga
Hey, at least I didn't suggest you get water from your neighbor Germany.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Less than 200KM to the nearest ocean. Start laying some pipes...
That's very likely more efficient than trying to pull water from the air.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I often think of going back in time and telling the Arabi who invented the magnetic compass -
Wasn't the magnetic compass invented in China?
So, in other words, we extract moisture from the air to drink, so that the air becomes drier and you then have to drink more to make up for the moisture you are now loosing more rapidly through evaporation?
I can imagine walking up to the "moisture vacuum" around these things and instantly crumpling into a pruned-up mummy.
More efficient how?
TFA suggests a method of collecting water, for free, from the air without requiring any additional energy input. You're suggesting they build a 200km pipe, plus desalination plant, to pump water across miles of hostile desert.
Assuming TFA's invention isn't very expensive (and if it's just brine and solar heaters, it shouldn't be), I fail to see how mass desalination and water transport is going to be "more efficient". Easier perhaps, but efficient it isn't.
It's not "free" in the slightest. It has an extremely high initial cost, and huge operating costs, due to deterioration of solar panels and fatigue of all mechanical parts.
By the above logic, all of that is "free" too... right?
And the desalination plant is definitely "free" because you need precisely that for separating the water from the brine in the air-based system as well.
That's a terrible and baseless assumption.
You also utterly fail to consider VOLUME. Even a tiny pipeline will move a HUGE amount of water, whenever you want. You can't, however, gather much water from the air.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant