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Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life?
JustShootMe writes "I have a question for my fellow Slashdotters, and yes, I realize I am entering the lion's den covered in tasty meat-flavored sauce. I have never been a very social person, preferring to throw myself into technology; therefore, I've been spectacularly unsuccessful in developing any meaningful interpersonal relationships. Lately I have begun to feel that this situation is not tenable, and I would like to fix it. But I really don't know how and haven't the faintest idea where to start. I know that I am in the minority and that there are many different kinds of Slashdot readers, most of whom have more experience in this realm than I do. So please tell me: how, and more importantly, where do you meet fellow geeks — preferably including some of the opposite gender — in meatspace?"
I don't know where you'd meet a woman in realspace, since I met my wife on-line. But that was 29 years ago, so that old trick probably won't work any more.
John
don't call it meatspace, it freaks out the normal people.
You could start by not ASKING SLASHDOT...
Craigslist....choose, but choose wisely.
Go to a dance instructor. You've got the money. Pay for lessons. Then go to group dance lessons. Meet people there and then get groups going to dance clubs.
All your problems will disappear.
Unless you're a girl. All the above assumes you're a boy. You're a boy, right? OK, then go learn to dance.
If you attend church (fat chance of someone who uses slashdot doing that I know) then that would provide a good starting point. If you have a job then you can maybe organize a get-together after work with the guys. Being that the people are from the workplace, you could probably invite some women and they wouldn't feel as uncomfortable because they know you from work. The cafe' area in a Barnes and Noble might be a good place too. These aren't necessarily geared toward technology but if you are looking for women you basically have to avoid technology anyway.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
Eric Raymond's famous essays on relationships and the modern geek: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/sextips/
Linux groups would be a good bet for meeting more geeks. Something that help me get out of my shell at an early age was a martial arts club. Most times you will find they have a good set of values and a nice sense of community. Also it helps with self esteem. I have found this question to have a snow ball response. Once you start getting out and enlarging your comfort zone things can grow quickly. Checking out events in your area and region with social network sites and local arts events / classes can also go a long way. Approaching new people is easier when you are approachable, be friendly smile make eye contact and most of all simple complements. Oh and getting a 2nd job in a bar will change you for life.
There's a wonderful world of people out there, safely screened by the most effective condom of all -- ASCII.
. . . the book store.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
First of all, don't talk like you do in your summary. Using overly precise words will freak normal people out (Geeks tend to find it pretentious, as well.) Find a local geek hangout spot, hang back and observe. Smile when something is amusing, laugh when it's funny. Say nothing until you feel comfortable. Do this until you are having a conversation. Repeat conversations until you are invited to activities with people. Repeat until you have friends. But most of all, throw your research away, stop asking Slashdot like you're preparing a technical writeup...and Relax! People are fun.
Take up an outdoor sport.
If you can find something that you like to do you will meet other people who like the same thing and friendships will develop. I met a future girlfriend while mountain biking...
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Not using terms like meatspace. Really. Where are we, the fridge?
Why limit yourself to geeks? I spent years at various Universities trying and failing to meet women and it wasn't until I started doing stuff outside of my normal group that I did. I took up figure skating of all things and met my future wife. Now you may ask why a red blooded male would take up figure skating. Same reason I did cookery at school. No red blooded male would do them so there were loads of females and no competition.
Get out, take up a social activity. A friend of mine in a similar situation took up dancing and ended up meeting lots of girls too.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
Some ideas:
If you're unafraid of your klutziness, join a dance troupe. Or a theatre group. You'd be surprised; most such organizations desperately need someone to do lighting and such, and are woefully ignorant of basics. So if you can wire a lightswitch, can follow a script, you can be a stagehand or a technical director.
Volunteer for trail building. OK, this only works if you're an outdoor person, but that's where the sort of women I like hang out. You can build a trail in a local park, get to work next to some really good looking women, and perhaps have something to talk about - especially if you can keep your mouth shut and listen to eco babble about salmon runs and invasive species.
Or....
Anyway, find an activity that's not a dating meatmarket. Someplace where your social awkwardness (if such exists) is irrelevant, where you're working toward a common goal, and pretty soon you'll find some fellow tree planter or trail builder or invasive-species puller is asking you to come out next weekend to do something else.
The whole idea is that if you set out to find "fellow geeks" you'll end up in a room full of guys with stilted conversations about geek stuff. If you set out to do something different, and are honest and accepting and funny about your ineptitude, you will meet some really cool people.
Simple do what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did.
1: Create a huge tech company
2: Engage Human Resources
3: Pick a girl out of company cafeteria line.
4: Have lots of kids right away.
5: PROFIT!!
The need is huge, the hands very limited, and the job has awesome fringe benefits: you like the person in the mirror and you work with some people who are willing to stop yakking long enough to actually help people.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I met my first serious girlfriend of 5 years on what used to be Yahoo Personals (I think it's still around or it's probably Match.com powered now).
My most recent (going on 3 years) girlfriend who I would consider my long term partner I met on Craigslist.org. I know it sounds lame but finding someone who was smart and shared at least a few similar interests is a challenge especially when your passion is technology.
Might be worth a try?
It takes time to get your posts right before you get responses. The best advice I can give if you try your hand at online dating is share a picture within an email or two, and make sure to meet up in person as opposed to developing a relationship via email first. People tend to be different when you meet them in person. Get out there and go on as many dates as you can. You'll find someone for you.
And people who make fun of you for trying are lonely and miserable and they are just projecting onto you because you're trying to correct your situation!
Good for you!
Perhaps it has been so long that it just seems like Slashdot use to be an actual site you could turn to every day and read a nice cross section of laypeople and industry experts discussing interesting technology topics.
Can't all these inane 'Ask Slashdot' - aka Please Give Me Attention!!! articles be done away with?
Just. Fucking. Google. It.
If you try something and it fails, you can always reload from a previous saved game. If only real life were like that... "Wow, that didn't go over well. ctrl-z! ctrl-z!"
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
What do you mean the situation is not tenable (i.e. maintainable). If you don't do anything, or if you do the wrong things, the situation will stay as it is---maintaining the status quo is easy as pie.
As to why you should give up, the answer is roughly that you probably don't have anything to offer to women. Firstly, note that only about 40% of men reproduced compared to twice that percentage for women (as inferred from mitochondrial DNA), so you're in a man's normal condition.
For some contemporary evidence that women don't need most men, just look around to notice that in general women don't hit on men sexually. Often women will only have sex with men for the first time after large amounts of alchohol. There's no culture where women pursue men instead of vice versa, so this is not merely a fact about western culture. There's also plenty of chemical evidence (e.g. women get testosterone treatment to increase their sex drive).
In fact, scientific studies (tracking eye movements) show that both straight women and straight men are more turned on by a naked women than naked men (see Matt Ridley's The Red Queen for a discussion).
Finally, studies usually find that married men are much happier than unmarried men, but married women are usually no happier once the financial contribution of the man is deducted (here for example). Furthermore, married men but not women live longer and are healthier.
So anyway, I can see why you want a woman, but in general that's usually a selfish decision for a guy. Why not come to terms with your condition and lead a meaningful life in another way?
Technology is one of my passions, but not my life. I found God - the Lord gives me the ability to mingle with society as the techie I am without the fear of what people will think or how they will react...
Get a dog. - Gordon Gecko
Sig this!
It doesn't matter where you go, or what you do. Just start talking, and when it feels awkward, and people give weird feedback, don't take it personally, move on, and try again. After a while, you'll be person of character, and able to interact meaningfully with everyone.
Wife #1: Took community college courses in tennis and volleyball when recovering from a motorcycle accident. Lots of single women there.
Wife #2: IRC
Another suggestion: volunteer for your favorite flavor of politics. And if not into politics, some other form of volunteering.
You really have to read this and have Google Images open elsewhere wtih pictures of ESR to appreciate the humour fully.
Umm, you don't perhaps want to give up now do you?
Still listening? Sigh! Biology has you by the balls, eh?
Ok. First off. Wash. Squeaky clean, shaved and no smells.
Next, practice. Practice on a captive chained wage slave.... I mean till operator.
Practice, being polite, nice, more interested in what they are interested in than in yourself, complimentary. You know that incredibly boring weather and hair stuff smalltalk (not the OOP language) you hate? Get over that and practice anyway. Not about tech, not about what's wrong with your life, but what the girl is saying, doing, thinking.
Be always squeaky clean and nice. The next step is tricky... you see, men deceive themselves that they can get the girls. It's the other way round. Human biology works the other way.
Men merely demonstrate that they at least have some capability of being molded into a domesticated breeding partner.... and then the girls take their pick.
Thereafter make yourself available. Place yourself in contexts where the opposite gender exist. Going to Linux meetings or motorbike meets is not what I mean. Church socials are an excellent place, visit married friends (with eligible friends and sisters), ...
Umm, let be a bit clearer.. Nature's course is some girl will attempt to mold you like putty. Change what you wear and how, what you eat, how you live, what you do etc. If you show you are (to the appropriate degree) pliable...AND more interested in what she is doing and saying than your tech.
She may decide you are marriagable material.
Still here? Sure you don't want a new netbook instead? Or perhaps an inflatable friend?
Sigh! Girls, they're the ultimate bait and switch.
And NO, you not having my wife, get your own. I may grumble, but I wouldn't swop her for anything. Not even a new motorbike.
He already tried sitting in the basement eating Cheetos and playing WoW all day...no luck so far.
My girlfriend is a 2nd grade teacher. She and all her co-workers are single, female, very intellectual, super educated (masters degree is required), and very hot. Can't meet anyone of the opposite sex at work? They can't either!
Well, the one "skill" most people neglect to mention is simply approaching women and asking them out. I'm not saying you should be an ass and hit on every girl you see, but if you respectfully ask if they'd like to go out sometime they'll either be flattered and decline or say yes. You'll get rejected less often if you're honest about who you are and look for someone like yourself. Are you an overweight nerd that's into renaissance fairs? Walk up to the next chubby girl you meet at the fair and ask it she'd like to split a turkey leg.
There's a world of socially awkward women desperate for someone to show some interest in them. Be confident, don't fear rejection, and make the women that show interest in you feel desirable and attractive.
I met my wife online too, but before that, a motorcycle did wonders for my social life (in fact, it was the bike that gave me the confidence to meet her in person.)
Before I had the bike, I was shy and had low self esteem ... I was dateless for over two years. Within a few weeks of getting the bike, I was getting 2-3 girls a week asking me out! Seriously.. a motorcycle turns "shy and introverted" into "dark and brooding". (But don't assume that every woman will ask you out - if one comes over and talks to you about your machine, chat with her a bit about the bike and offer her a ride.)
Some caveats:
http://www.meetup.com/
I had the same problem as you, when my ex-girlfriend moved out; she'd managed to alienate literally everyone I'd previously ever known, including family members.
I joined a Meetup group about 18 months ago, and was eventually made Organizer. I host monthly groups, and out of a resident membership of around 100 people, I get regular attendance of close to a dozen people now. There are also Meetups for just about every possible kind of general interest you can think of, including some which are purely for random socialising.
For one, if you're geeky enough to use the word in casual speech, you might well find people who freak out at such vocabulary to be tiresome, so using the term works as a kind of social self selection.
For two, read the wonderful short story, They're Made out of Meat . Choice quote:
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
It's amazing how much of this thread is about action, and how little about traction. The Seligman video I watching this morning on TED discusses how psychiatry is devoted to getting people from -infinity (suicidal) to zero (empty, but not distressed); there hasn't been much study about how to get people from zero to something better.
A lot of the advice here is from the -infinity to zero camp: having none to having some. You could end up with someone you're not very well suited to, who doesn't really see you for who you are (see the "mold like putty" post), and with few emotional skills to make a relationship last more than three months.
Women have finely tuned sensors about men who are posing for effect. If a woman doesn't have this skill, she's nothing but trouble herself.
90% of success in relationships comes from listening skills, mostly of the non-verbal variety. The safest place to start an intimate conversation with a women you don't know very well is about her relationships: family members or close friends. If you have the knack of non-verbal communication, you'll pick up many small clues from body language during the rambling chit-chat. Note that most women tend to be peace-makers at heart, so if a chick is rambling endlessly about a relationship and your head is starting to spin from all the mindless detail (e.g. dress colour selection as a bridesmaid) there is usually some relationship tension hiding in there.
The next step is to engage the emotional clues you're getting with your own emotional content. It's hard to ask sensitive questions if you sound like you're filling out an insurance claim form. It works better to go "I was listening to you the other day and I started to get this feeling, so I started to wonder if there was more to your story." The first five words will catch most women off guard, the rest of it is fairly non-directive, and the woman will regard it as a small trophy that you, as a man, admit to having emotional responses. She'll want to affirm your bravery by telling more of the story.
Even if I pose this as a bit of gambit, you're best off being completely authentic. Note that this is hard, delicate work. Inauthenticity is a kind of lie, and lies become hard to remember.
If you're not insulting with your content, don't be too afraid of occasional conflict. Women tend to seek resolution, so you're almost certain to be given a chance to redeem yourself. At this point, be gentle, but act like you have a backbone. As much as women will try to mold you, they get cranky if they have too much success at this. At the end of the day, you can't rely on putty.
Women tend to be more straightforward about their emotions with their close friends than their romantic partners. Another detail it is important to bear in mind is that women experience the same range of emotions as men, including dark emotions of anger and hostility, but they tend to dress it up differently, and the rules are complicated about when this can be openly discussed (with some women, never, but these are not choice companions).
No matter how good you become with your communication skills, your biology is down there shuffling the deck, making things at the surface confusing as hell. Women tend to assume that if you're not confused by your emotions at some point, you aren't fully invested. A little bit of volatility proves you're alive. So don't be afraid once in a while to venture off script.
In the long run your sanity will be much improved if you reach the state of being where you can say "vive la différence" about all this heartache and really mean it.
The number one predictor of a successful romance is shared value systems, and the number one predictor of a successful long term relationship is emotional engagement. Eventually, even great sex becomes a matter of psychology and emotion, and for that, you need to find something in yourself worth sharing.
If you find a gal that is candid, then you will know that the similar stimulation factors involving the motorcycle's seat/vibration characteristics compare favorably to the seat/movement stimulus of a horse under saddle for said gal.
For you motorcycle-less, and horse-less dudes, there is still hope.
Howard Stern conducted an impromptu 'experiment' involving a powerful subwoofer that the gal could 'ride' astraddle of a sub-woofer under his control that achieved the same orgasmic results of motorcycles and horseback riding.
Imagination and creativity is your friend.
Studies conducted decades ago came to the conclusion [citation needed-too lazy to look]that date scenarios that induced adrenaline and other thrills increased your odds of getting lucky on dates...scary movies, thrilling carnival rides, riding 'shotgun' in safe, sanctioned drag races, bungee jumping, etc...all produced positive results far better than the typical 'dinner, chic-flick movie, then try to enter on delivery to domicile'(can I come in for coffee, or 'one for the road') approach.(there seems to be some correlation between adrenaline induced episodes invoking some kind of sexual arousal...may be related to some survival instinct or dopamine levels in the brain chemistry)
It seemed that the more novel the date setting==increased 'getting lucky' factor.
Exercise her mind and imagination with the date setting, don't be afraid as being lame for not following the time accepted formula..chicks dig getting a non-standard date...it shows innovation and 'outside of the box thinking', which will make them feel special and cherished.
I once took a gal to an annual 'Machinegun shoot' in Arizona, packed a picnic lunch.
I let her fire many different select fire, and automatic-fire weapons during the day.
We did not get 3 miles from the shoot and she was suggesting us getting a motel room to 'work off' the excitement.
Get out to groups that share your interests, and talk to any interesting(to you) gals in those groups to find likely candidates for dates.
Being turned down is just a filter to apply, not the end of the world, nor hope. Even if just talking to them gives you a platonic friend, that's still a plus!(hint:the more desperate you seem/act/come across as, the less chance you have.
A wedding band caused me to need a baseball bat to keep them away right after I got married!
Act somewhat aloof, but friendly to all for good results.
Somewhat shadier, but extremely successful, is if you have a friend that has a small child, especially a really cute 4-5 year old boy...offer to babysit, then take him grocery shopping. Make sure to take your 'little black book', as you will fill it before you get to the checkout line!!!!!
My college roomate (female-it was a 'big brother/surrogate hubby relationship-purely platonic..she was a single Mom, 12 years my junior, but convenient for us both at the time to 'set up house' together-we had separate social lives) had such a son, so I know it works(see shopping/babysitting tip above...I was exhibiting a 'nurturing/protective' attitude that long-term relationship gals were looking for subconsciously. apparently, and they came in droves and flocks!
I have found other effective techniques, but the bottom line:
1. stick to the truth at all times, it's much easier to remember 'one true story' that subsequent inquiries will inevitably expose/uncover, thus corroborate...it will happen!
2. avoid bars/clubs as 'girl shopping' areas, unless you are a 'knight in shining armor', and can afford to put up with the complications tha always seem to arise...still recommended against, but YMMV. YMMV adversely to exceptions more often than not-be forewarned!
3. avoid preconceptions and expectations, enjoy and treasure the jewels you find...even if they are not 'that right one'
4. beauty is not skin deep...beauty is like a properly cut, dressed, faceted, and polished gemstone. There are many facets that combine to make true beauty, which endures
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
There's lots of great advice in this thread about location, and tips on how not to freak someone else out.
But one thing to keep in mind, probably tip number 1 in my mind anyways, is once you've met someone interesting, don't forget to pull the trigger.
By this, I mean you have to act if you want to get anywhere. Don't worry too much about the consequences of said actions, and play it relaxed. So, if you see a lady you might be interested in, strike up a conversation. See if you can get 5 minutes of not-uncomfortable small talk. If you can get that far, maybe ask if she'd like to continue the conversation over coffee. Don't suggest coffee at a later date (but don't argue if that's what she counters with) -- just do it.
Commit yourself to coffee and nothing more. Do your best to convince yourself that the entire meeting ends once the cup is empty, and just focus on having a meaningful encounter for 20 or 30 minutes.
If things are going well, hint that it would be fun to meet up again sometime. If she agrees, ask for her number.
When you call her back, have something interesting that you'd like to suggest doing. Dinner is always safe, but make sure the restaurant matches the girl (eg. if during coffee she mentioned that she moved from the coast to Wisconsin, and misses Indian food, see if you can find somewhere with a wicked curry - don't, however, just book a dinner at a nice restaurant and assume that's OK). Better than dinner, try finding an activity, with a fixed start and stop time, that could be fun for both of you. Maybe there's a con or a concert in the park, or you and some friends are heading to the beach for an afternoon with a bar-b-q (note: this is only a good idea if there are other ladies coming, four dudes on an empty beach will be creepy).
If you think things are going well, and you feel a spark, initiate some kind of physical encounter. Start with casual touch (putting your hand on her shoulder, or on the small of her back), then move up to less casual from there. The more basic contact there is, the less creepy non-standard contact will seem. That is, if you kiss someone out of nowhere it will feel strange. If you have already been in physical contact, it's the next logical step. Also, this gives you a good way to assess how she's feeling. If she recoils in terror, you're probably not getting lucky tonight. If she's fine with it, or if she seems into it, awesome. Then, by all means, man up and kiss her when the time seems good. (But don't' wait too long or she'll get confused and think that you're her new gay knitting friend. You have intentions, let her know them.) A lot of geeks fool themselves into not acting on the physical side, by saying things like 'I'm respecting her boundaries by letting her pick the level of physicality...' Blah blah blah, most (not all) women are taught to not initiate things like a first kiss - they are supposed to flirt and encourage you to act, but not to actually do it. If you don't, you'll both end up waiting.
At this point, I leave the rest up to you.
OK, so this seems like pretty basic advice, but all of this is a specific counter to something that would block your standard socially awkward introvert:
- Not starting a conversation. (Just talk to her!)
- Not asking for a date. (Coffee is a date, but isn't scary.)
- Putting too much pressure on the first date. (You're just meeting someone, not assessing their potential as a life partner)
- Not calling her back. (Why do people ask for numbers they won't use?)
- Being over the top, or too generic in the second date. (Pick specific, interesting, encounters. And yes, your selection is a test.)
- Scared of physical encounter. (Touching is good.)
- Not getting past the friend barrier. (Once you are kissing someone, they have a good idea of where the relationship is going.)
don't view non-geeks as "mundane". The "meatspace" will earn the "weird" label, but the "mundane" will earn the "motherfucking asshole" label, and justifiably so.
At least he did not call them muggles.....
That relationship left me with two (actually more but the rest are too discouraging to mention) insights: First, I'm happy I'm not that social a person; having your social life be equivalent to a part-time job really messes up your schedule. Second, I'm not entering into a relationship with a person with that kind of social life again. I'm not going to spend twenty hours a week meeting people I don't know on the off chance of perhaps actually spending an afternoon with my partner (if I even get invited/can afford to come along, that is).
I think you can condense those two insights into one: you learned a little about what works for you.
I'm not a very social person either, I like to recharge by doing as little as possible. My wife likes to go out every now and then because she can't stand just hanging around the house. The reason it works though, is that neither of us is at either end of the spectrum so we're able to meet in the middle. Some days we stay in and watch a movie and other days we go to the park or host a party. It's very important that if you don't share the same level of introversion/extroversion that you're at least able to reach a compromise. While you probably walked away from that relationship a little sore it sounds like you also walked away a little wiser. ;)
To answer the original question, I live in an area where finding local geeks is pretty difficult. To fill that need I communicate with them on the Internet and occasionally try to arrange meet-ups when I'm vacationing in their area. I dated a geek girl for a while in high school but found it way too difficult because we tended to end up in power struggles on the topic of computers. Even if you define yourself as a geek you shouldn't limit yourself to searching for friends and women in the same field. Try to diversify as much as possible.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
Exactly! The correct solution is to go to a flea market, find an old computer, put it in her room, install OpenBSD on it, throw Apache, MySQL and PHP on top of that, install Drupal, install the Calendar and Date modules, set up DynDNS to point to her new calendar server, sync her cell phone to the server using iCal, and make sure that you both have user accounts on the machine so you can both keep track of each other. I mean, duh. :-)