Slashdot Mirror
Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life?
JustShootMe writes "I have a question for my fellow Slashdotters, and yes, I realize I am entering the lion's den covered in tasty meat-flavored sauce. I have never been a very social person, preferring to throw myself into technology; therefore, I've been spectacularly unsuccessful in developing any meaningful interpersonal relationships. Lately I have begun to feel that this situation is not tenable, and I would like to fix it. But I really don't know how and haven't the faintest idea where to start. I know that I am in the minority and that there are many different kinds of Slashdot readers, most of whom have more experience in this realm than I do. So please tell me: how, and more importantly, where do you meet fellow geeks — preferably including some of the opposite gender — in meatspace?"
I don't know where you'd meet a woman in realspace, since I met my wife on-line. But that was 29 years ago, so that old trick probably won't work any more.
John
don't call it meatspace, it freaks out the normal people.
You could start by not ASKING SLASHDOT...
Craigslist....choose, but choose wisely.
Go to a dance instructor. You've got the money. Pay for lessons. Then go to group dance lessons. Meet people there and then get groups going to dance clubs.
All your problems will disappear.
Unless you're a girl. All the above assumes you're a boy. You're a boy, right? OK, then go learn to dance.
If you attend church (fat chance of someone who uses slashdot doing that I know) then that would provide a good starting point. If you have a job then you can maybe organize a get-together after work with the guys. Being that the people are from the workplace, you could probably invite some women and they wouldn't feel as uncomfortable because they know you from work. The cafe' area in a Barnes and Noble might be a good place too. These aren't necessarily geared toward technology but if you are looking for women you basically have to avoid technology anyway.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
Eric Raymond's famous essays on relationships and the modern geek: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/sextips/
Linux groups would be a good bet for meeting more geeks. Something that help me get out of my shell at an early age was a martial arts club. Most times you will find they have a good set of values and a nice sense of community. Also it helps with self esteem. I have found this question to have a snow ball response. Once you start getting out and enlarging your comfort zone things can grow quickly. Checking out events in your area and region with social network sites and local arts events / classes can also go a long way. Approaching new people is easier when you are approachable, be friendly smile make eye contact and most of all simple complements. Oh and getting a 2nd job in a bar will change you for life.
Great way to connect with local people of like minds.
There's a wonderful world of people out there, safely screened by the most effective condom of all -- ASCII.
. . . the book store.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
First of all, don't talk like you do in your summary. Using overly precise words will freak normal people out (Geeks tend to find it pretentious, as well.) Find a local geek hangout spot, hang back and observe. Smile when something is amusing, laugh when it's funny. Say nothing until you feel comfortable. Do this until you are having a conversation. Repeat conversations until you are invited to activities with people. Repeat until you have friends. But most of all, throw your research away, stop asking Slashdot like you're preparing a technical writeup...and Relax! People are fun.
Take up an outdoor sport.
If you can find something that you like to do you will meet other people who like the same thing and friendships will develop. I met a future girlfriend while mountain biking...
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Not using terms like meatspace. Really. Where are we, the fridge?
Why limit yourself to geeks? I spent years at various Universities trying and failing to meet women and it wasn't until I started doing stuff outside of my normal group that I did. I took up figure skating of all things and met my future wife. Now you may ask why a red blooded male would take up figure skating. Same reason I did cookery at school. No red blooded male would do them so there were loads of females and no competition.
Get out, take up a social activity. A friend of mine in a similar situation took up dancing and ended up meeting lots of girls too.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
Some ideas:
If you're unafraid of your klutziness, join a dance troupe. Or a theatre group. You'd be surprised; most such organizations desperately need someone to do lighting and such, and are woefully ignorant of basics. So if you can wire a lightswitch, can follow a script, you can be a stagehand or a technical director.
Volunteer for trail building. OK, this only works if you're an outdoor person, but that's where the sort of women I like hang out. You can build a trail in a local park, get to work next to some really good looking women, and perhaps have something to talk about - especially if you can keep your mouth shut and listen to eco babble about salmon runs and invasive species.
Or....
Anyway, find an activity that's not a dating meatmarket. Someplace where your social awkwardness (if such exists) is irrelevant, where you're working toward a common goal, and pretty soon you'll find some fellow tree planter or trail builder or invasive-species puller is asking you to come out next weekend to do something else.
The whole idea is that if you set out to find "fellow geeks" you'll end up in a room full of guys with stilted conversations about geek stuff. If you set out to do something different, and are honest and accepting and funny about your ineptitude, you will meet some really cool people.
Yoga. Namaste.
Say hello to my little sig.
Simple do what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did.
1: Create a huge tech company
2: Engage Human Resources
3: Pick a girl out of company cafeteria line.
4: Have lots of kids right away.
5: PROFIT!!
The need is huge, the hands very limited, and the job has awesome fringe benefits: you like the person in the mirror and you work with some people who are willing to stop yakking long enough to actually help people.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
OK. It's a fair question. I intentionally left those details out because this is not a geek dating site (and it was not a geek dating question) and I really did want to dig up some generic answers to the question. But I'll answer it on this thread.
I'm 33, male, live in Orange County, CA. I'm a Linux systems engineer/administrator by trade, but I'm also a fairly good pianist/keyboardist, like making and hacking on electronic stuff, and have a rather odd interest in jets, trains, and abnormal weather. :-)
My background is a little bit unusual, which is why I'm in a position of not really knowing where to start on this. The suggestions here are very helpful so far, mostly.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
Learned to play the guitar (badly). Learned to dance (just enough to look and feel confident). Learned to cook, and present the output nicely on a plate. Got fit. Ignore any fad diets, the best way is to grab a "Get fit for the army" type poster from your local armed forces office and *follow* it. Went to lots of parties. If you can't get any invites, start some of your own. Relax. It takes time for you to become more personable and socially aware. It takes time for people you meet to know you. Outcome? Epic win. I'm going out with a British model, who is also a programmer!
I met my first serious girlfriend of 5 years on what used to be Yahoo Personals (I think it's still around or it's probably Match.com powered now).
My most recent (going on 3 years) girlfriend who I would consider my long term partner I met on Craigslist.org. I know it sounds lame but finding someone who was smart and shared at least a few similar interests is a challenge especially when your passion is technology.
Might be worth a try?
It takes time to get your posts right before you get responses. The best advice I can give if you try your hand at online dating is share a picture within an email or two, and make sure to meet up in person as opposed to developing a relationship via email first. People tend to be different when you meet them in person. Get out there and go on as many dates as you can. You'll find someone for you.
And people who make fun of you for trying are lonely and miserable and they are just projecting onto you because you're trying to correct your situation!
Good for you!
Perhaps it has been so long that it just seems like Slashdot use to be an actual site you could turn to every day and read a nice cross section of laypeople and industry experts discussing interesting technology topics.
Can't all these inane 'Ask Slashdot' - aka Please Give Me Attention!!! articles be done away with?
Just. Fucking. Google. It.
If you try something and it fails, you can always reload from a previous saved game. If only real life were like that... "Wow, that didn't go over well. ctrl-z! ctrl-z!"
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
What do you mean the situation is not tenable (i.e. maintainable). If you don't do anything, or if you do the wrong things, the situation will stay as it is---maintaining the status quo is easy as pie.
As to why you should give up, the answer is roughly that you probably don't have anything to offer to women. Firstly, note that only about 40% of men reproduced compared to twice that percentage for women (as inferred from mitochondrial DNA), so you're in a man's normal condition.
For some contemporary evidence that women don't need most men, just look around to notice that in general women don't hit on men sexually. Often women will only have sex with men for the first time after large amounts of alchohol. There's no culture where women pursue men instead of vice versa, so this is not merely a fact about western culture. There's also plenty of chemical evidence (e.g. women get testosterone treatment to increase their sex drive).
In fact, scientific studies (tracking eye movements) show that both straight women and straight men are more turned on by a naked women than naked men (see Matt Ridley's The Red Queen for a discussion).
Finally, studies usually find that married men are much happier than unmarried men, but married women are usually no happier once the financial contribution of the man is deducted (here for example). Furthermore, married men but not women live longer and are healthier.
So anyway, I can see why you want a woman, but in general that's usually a selfish decision for a guy. Why not come to terms with your condition and lead a meaningful life in another way?
Technology is one of my passions, but not my life. I found God - the Lord gives me the ability to mingle with society as the techie I am without the fear of what people will think or how they will react...
Join a (sports) club - the most common way to meet people. Real people. And don't worry if you're not that physically strong; join a cards or chess club or so: mind sports are also sports. As geek you probably have the brains for it. And especially when joining a mind sport club you have a good chance there are males and females playing together.
Firstly, don't use terms like "meatspace" in, er, meatspace.
Bitches are crazy, don't bother.
Get a dog. - Gordon Gecko
Sig this!
It doesn't matter where you go, or what you do. Just start talking, and when it feels awkward, and people give weird feedback, don't take it personally, move on, and try again. After a while, you'll be person of character, and able to interact meaningfully with everyone.
Flip on a TV. Watch some touchy-feely story and you'll inevitably see women doing all kinds of crap. Now, this is partly because the camera crew knows that they are easy on the eyes, but they're there.
If you're religious, even mildly, or even somewhat anti-religious, church is outstanding. Think about it from their point of view: making babies is the #1 means of recruitment.
If you like animals, you are set. Just go to your local animal shelter. If you're a little loopy, try PETA. Likewise, environmentalist groups are a dime a dozen and the less you know about the environment, the better.
If you're political, there are plenty of girls on both the right and left. I'd recommend sticking with campaigns for major candidates to avoid nutters, but if you're a nutter, go for it.
If you can teach _anything_ do that. People need job skills and fscking around with Office is a job skill. Volunteering at a local school is great; so many teachers are women that men actually benefit from affirmative action in the public school system.
If you can play an instrument, join a band. Avoid the drugs.
And even if you have absolutely no talent, you can always volunteer at a homeless shelter.
One caveat: go in with a plan. Say you'll stick with whatever you choose for a few months. If you don't meet anyone, try something else. Don't feel obligated to whoever you're volunteering with, and most of all, realize that wanting a relationship is a perfectly good reason to do this stuff.
Wife #1: Took community college courses in tennis and volleyball when recovering from a motorcycle accident. Lots of single women there.
Wife #2: IRC
Another suggestion: volunteer for your favorite flavor of politics. And if not into politics, some other form of volunteering.
If you have friends who are going to go hang out, just go with them. Never say no to going anywhere. Try new stuff. Bars are great with friends, talk to whoever you're sitting next to. Just smile, say hi, ask what kind of work they do/school. Little stuff like that. You can do eet!
Don't be cocky though - it's annoying. Do group things - dancing, classes, anything really, Introduce yourself to people - it'll feel awkward, but most of them will be pleased. Remember names - saying a person's name in a sentence 3 times shortly after meeting them helps. Be polite - please, thank you, hold open doors, etc. Don't be cocky - it's annoying.* This helps you meet people - beyond that is up to you - but it's ok, no one else knows what they're doing either. -- *I typed it twice because it's important.
Get involved in volunteering. It's probably not a direct and easy way to hook up, but if it's something you believe in it gives you a little common ground with the people in the group you're working with as well as another dimension to your character you can share in conversation elsewhere.
Have heard tell, for example, that some political campaigns were almost as much college-age social mixers as they were about getting the candidate elected.
You really have to read this and have Google Images open elsewhere wtih pictures of ESR to appreciate the humour fully.
Umm, you don't perhaps want to give up now do you?
Still listening? Sigh! Biology has you by the balls, eh?
Ok. First off. Wash. Squeaky clean, shaved and no smells.
Next, practice. Practice on a captive chained wage slave.... I mean till operator.
Practice, being polite, nice, more interested in what they are interested in than in yourself, complimentary. You know that incredibly boring weather and hair stuff smalltalk (not the OOP language) you hate? Get over that and practice anyway. Not about tech, not about what's wrong with your life, but what the girl is saying, doing, thinking.
Be always squeaky clean and nice. The next step is tricky... you see, men deceive themselves that they can get the girls. It's the other way round. Human biology works the other way.
Men merely demonstrate that they at least have some capability of being molded into a domesticated breeding partner.... and then the girls take their pick.
Thereafter make yourself available. Place yourself in contexts where the opposite gender exist. Going to Linux meetings or motorbike meets is not what I mean. Church socials are an excellent place, visit married friends (with eligible friends and sisters), ...
Umm, let be a bit clearer.. Nature's course is some girl will attempt to mold you like putty. Change what you wear and how, what you eat, how you live, what you do etc. If you show you are (to the appropriate degree) pliable...AND more interested in what she is doing and saying than your tech.
She may decide you are marriagable material.
Still here? Sure you don't want a new netbook instead? Or perhaps an inflatable friend?
Sigh! Girls, they're the ultimate bait and switch.
And NO, you not having my wife, get your own. I may grumble, but I wouldn't swop her for anything. Not even a new motorbike.
Get out and do things, anything really.
Nobody just shows up to your door and asks if you want to date or hang out.
Lots of above posters have suggested great things. The biggest thing to remember is to just DO SOMETHING.
Go to a class - cooking, dancing, photography, poetry, reading, etc
Develop a physical hobby - working out, martial arts, running, biking, climbing, hiking, tennis, soccer, basketball, softball
Go to a book store
Go to the mall
Go to a bar
Go to a club
Yes, online works too. Match.com, craigslist, meetup, etc etc
If you want to do geeky things, find a D&D game, or a LAN party, or whatever
Probably the best place to find geeky girls is on a college campus. Go find out where the engineering and computer science departments are or find out where those people like to get together.
The thing about being social is - you just have to BE social. Put yourself in social activities and social situations and you will have the opportunity to be social!
Get outside and do things
First of all, you will not be as successful in your career if you aren't socially adept. I'm an Engineer, and I spend about 50% of my time at work doing social things - meetings, proposals, talking to vendors, working with technicians, technologists, and tradespersons. Another 30% of my time is shopping - procuring parts, calling suppliers, etc. Most of the rest is inspecting drawings, and I'd say that at a max, 1% is technical work that I learned at school and I give that to co-op students.
Second, you will not be successful in your career if you do nothing but that all the time. A tagline I saw here was, "would you trust a brain surgeon that tinkered on animals for fun in his spare time?" There are very good suggestions in this thread, and you should start a "down tools" policy at home. NO CODING. Make dinner for yourself to start. Learn to play a musical instrument and join a community band (some offer free lessons to beginner players.). Take up a sport where you work with other people.
The good news is that, in DnD terms, CHA is a stat that can be faked and it gains by use. The more you fake it, the less you have to fake it because you'll actually get better at the social aspects of interpersonal relationships.
I am married and have two kids, for what that's worth.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
He already tried sitting in the basement eating Cheetos and playing WoW all day...no luck so far.
Do it part time. One or two days a week, even more if you want. This will force you to interact with the hoi polloi. The general day to day communication skills you learn will help you to communicate better with others, including geeks.
Where to meet fellow geeks? University is the only place I have ever meet such people... oh, and then there was linux.conf.au where my partner said that I actually looked normal rather than the usual "out of place awkward geek that I really am".
Does it go on forever?
Unitarian Universalist. Something I've been considering too.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
My girlfriend is a 2nd grade teacher. She and all her co-workers are single, female, very intellectual, super educated (masters degree is required), and very hot. Can't meet anyone of the opposite sex at work? They can't either!
This is actually some good advice for two reasons:
1) You will have an instant best friend.
2) You can meet people at your local Dog Park.
Play with him (or her), teach him to do tricks, scratch him on his belly until his leg goes crazy. You will both learn social skills as you train him. Also, I have found that people who love animals are generally kind and friendly. Best of luck.
Unexpect the expected!
Psst.
Basement Underground Network.
Babe Galore.
Follow the Cheetos trail.
You didn't hear it from me.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Well, the one "skill" most people neglect to mention is simply approaching women and asking them out. I'm not saying you should be an ass and hit on every girl you see, but if you respectfully ask if they'd like to go out sometime they'll either be flattered and decline or say yes. You'll get rejected less often if you're honest about who you are and look for someone like yourself. Are you an overweight nerd that's into renaissance fairs? Walk up to the next chubby girl you meet at the fair and ask it she'd like to split a turkey leg.
There's a world of socially awkward women desperate for someone to show some interest in them. Be confident, don't fear rejection, and make the women that show interest in you feel desirable and attractive.
Everything a woman can ever need is found at WalMart. Go to WalMart, you'll find women. Hang around the lingerie, and when some gal starts eyeing and fingering the frilly stuff, tell her how great it would look on her. Go for it. Yeah, you'll get slapped ten or fifty times - but the NEXT ONE is probably the girl of your dreams.
No balls, no glory. Of course, no balls, no girl either.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I met my wife online too, but before that, a motorcycle did wonders for my social life (in fact, it was the bike that gave me the confidence to meet her in person.)
Before I had the bike, I was shy and had low self esteem ... I was dateless for over two years. Within a few weeks of getting the bike, I was getting 2-3 girls a week asking me out! Seriously.. a motorcycle turns "shy and introverted" into "dark and brooding". (But don't assume that every woman will ask you out - if one comes over and talks to you about your machine, chat with her a bit about the bike and offer her a ride.)
Some caveats:
Get outside and just start talking to people. talk to people at work, at mcdonalds, at the mall, etc.
Start talking and interacting with people and the friendships and relationships will follow. You simply need to get people to know you, even if its your opinion about the burger they're eating while they sit next to you --- to get the seed of a fruitful relationship planted.
And, from a guy who has been a computer nerd since 1993 (when i was 12), computers and geekery (aka via. technology) will not (generally) facilitate an answer for you in this department. Forums, myspace, facebook, whatever... they will all fail you in that your correspondence lacks real impact and emotion and it will not be taken as seriously or with the level of importance that a personal conversation has.
Get out there, start talking. You will eventually find people that like you, and possibly a chick that wants to do you.
Good luck out there. If there is anything else I can add, in big cities its harder to talk to random people because they usually seem irrationally afraid you're going to rob or rape them. its crappy... small town people are really easy to warm up to in any old place.
http://www.meetup.com/
I had the same problem as you, when my ex-girlfriend moved out; she'd managed to alienate literally everyone I'd previously ever known, including family members.
I joined a Meetup group about 18 months ago, and was eventually made Organizer. I host monthly groups, and out of a resident membership of around 100 people, I get regular attendance of close to a dozen people now. There are also Meetups for just about every possible kind of general interest you can think of, including some which are purely for random socialising.
MEET-SPACE.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
For one, if you're geeky enough to use the word in casual speech, you might well find people who freak out at such vocabulary to be tiresome, so using the term works as a kind of social self selection.
For two, read the wonderful short story, They're Made out of Meat . Choice quote:
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Geeks, social life, surely sir is joking?
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
It's amazing how much of this thread is about action, and how little about traction. The Seligman video I watching this morning on TED discusses how psychiatry is devoted to getting people from -infinity (suicidal) to zero (empty, but not distressed); there hasn't been much study about how to get people from zero to something better.
A lot of the advice here is from the -infinity to zero camp: having none to having some. You could end up with someone you're not very well suited to, who doesn't really see you for who you are (see the "mold like putty" post), and with few emotional skills to make a relationship last more than three months.
Women have finely tuned sensors about men who are posing for effect. If a woman doesn't have this skill, she's nothing but trouble herself.
90% of success in relationships comes from listening skills, mostly of the non-verbal variety. The safest place to start an intimate conversation with a women you don't know very well is about her relationships: family members or close friends. If you have the knack of non-verbal communication, you'll pick up many small clues from body language during the rambling chit-chat. Note that most women tend to be peace-makers at heart, so if a chick is rambling endlessly about a relationship and your head is starting to spin from all the mindless detail (e.g. dress colour selection as a bridesmaid) there is usually some relationship tension hiding in there.
The next step is to engage the emotional clues you're getting with your own emotional content. It's hard to ask sensitive questions if you sound like you're filling out an insurance claim form. It works better to go "I was listening to you the other day and I started to get this feeling, so I started to wonder if there was more to your story." The first five words will catch most women off guard, the rest of it is fairly non-directive, and the woman will regard it as a small trophy that you, as a man, admit to having emotional responses. She'll want to affirm your bravery by telling more of the story.
Even if I pose this as a bit of gambit, you're best off being completely authentic. Note that this is hard, delicate work. Inauthenticity is a kind of lie, and lies become hard to remember.
If you're not insulting with your content, don't be too afraid of occasional conflict. Women tend to seek resolution, so you're almost certain to be given a chance to redeem yourself. At this point, be gentle, but act like you have a backbone. As much as women will try to mold you, they get cranky if they have too much success at this. At the end of the day, you can't rely on putty.
Women tend to be more straightforward about their emotions with their close friends than their romantic partners. Another detail it is important to bear in mind is that women experience the same range of emotions as men, including dark emotions of anger and hostility, but they tend to dress it up differently, and the rules are complicated about when this can be openly discussed (with some women, never, but these are not choice companions).
No matter how good you become with your communication skills, your biology is down there shuffling the deck, making things at the surface confusing as hell. Women tend to assume that if you're not confused by your emotions at some point, you aren't fully invested. A little bit of volatility proves you're alive. So don't be afraid once in a while to venture off script.
In the long run your sanity will be much improved if you reach the state of being where you can say "vive la différence" about all this heartache and really mean it.
The number one predictor of a successful romance is shared value systems, and the number one predictor of a successful long term relationship is emotional engagement. Eventually, even great sex becomes a matter of psychology and emotion, and for that, you need to find something in yourself worth sharing.
I started dancing (primarily vintage swing -- Lindy Hop & Balboa) at age 23 with zero experience, rhythm, coordination, or fitness. Since then, I've driven 15,000+ miles just to dance and met hundreds of people across the northeastern US.
Dancing is a great way to make a wide variety of friends in all sorts of geographic locations.
*** Plenty of women, from a variety of backgrounds
*** Plenty of fellow geek men (ie math or sciences). Something about the structured social interaction and dancing makes it attractive to us. It's much less intimidating than going out to a club. Dancing is easier with a partner -- the responsibility for performing is diffused & shared, and coordination is biomechanically easier with someone else to help you. At least initially, the dance patterns are standardized (though there are many layers of variations and subtle differences that can be introduced at a higher level). Also, in an evening of social dance, you're expected to dance with a whole bunch of diff people, so you're forced to meet new people :-)
Women that I meet while dancing are never surprised when I tell them that I'm in CS. There are at least four male PhD student dancers (ballroom and swing) who work in my hallway. This phenomena is pretty general: high dance penetration in many CS, physics, and math departments around the country. I get a kick whenever I see a swing DJ post on a Bugzilla for a Linux media app, or geek out on hardware/software on the forums.
Good info: http://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/musings.htm
Are you still in university? Great options.
*** Go to social dance club. They're usually pretty big, with plenty of n00bs. At my school, 90% of the active members are PhD students in math/science.
*** Go take the level one dance studio class (i.e. modern, ballet, hip hop). Gender ratio is in your favor for meeting women (about 10% guys, 90% girls). Plenty of awkward guys there, so you won't be too embarrassed. As one of the few guys in the class, you automatically stand out socially -- people will want to know why you're taking that class.
If you find a gal that is candid, then you will know that the similar stimulation factors involving the motorcycle's seat/vibration characteristics compare favorably to the seat/movement stimulus of a horse under saddle for said gal.
For you motorcycle-less, and horse-less dudes, there is still hope.
Howard Stern conducted an impromptu 'experiment' involving a powerful subwoofer that the gal could 'ride' astraddle of a sub-woofer under his control that achieved the same orgasmic results of motorcycles and horseback riding.
Imagination and creativity is your friend.
Studies conducted decades ago came to the conclusion [citation needed-too lazy to look]that date scenarios that induced adrenaline and other thrills increased your odds of getting lucky on dates...scary movies, thrilling carnival rides, riding 'shotgun' in safe, sanctioned drag races, bungee jumping, etc...all produced positive results far better than the typical 'dinner, chic-flick movie, then try to enter on delivery to domicile'(can I come in for coffee, or 'one for the road') approach.(there seems to be some correlation between adrenaline induced episodes invoking some kind of sexual arousal...may be related to some survival instinct or dopamine levels in the brain chemistry)
It seemed that the more novel the date setting==increased 'getting lucky' factor.
Exercise her mind and imagination with the date setting, don't be afraid as being lame for not following the time accepted formula..chicks dig getting a non-standard date...it shows innovation and 'outside of the box thinking', which will make them feel special and cherished.
I once took a gal to an annual 'Machinegun shoot' in Arizona, packed a picnic lunch.
I let her fire many different select fire, and automatic-fire weapons during the day.
We did not get 3 miles from the shoot and she was suggesting us getting a motel room to 'work off' the excitement.
Get out to groups that share your interests, and talk to any interesting(to you) gals in those groups to find likely candidates for dates.
Being turned down is just a filter to apply, not the end of the world, nor hope. Even if just talking to them gives you a platonic friend, that's still a plus!(hint:the more desperate you seem/act/come across as, the less chance you have.
A wedding band caused me to need a baseball bat to keep them away right after I got married!
Act somewhat aloof, but friendly to all for good results.
Somewhat shadier, but extremely successful, is if you have a friend that has a small child, especially a really cute 4-5 year old boy...offer to babysit, then take him grocery shopping. Make sure to take your 'little black book', as you will fill it before you get to the checkout line!!!!!
My college roomate (female-it was a 'big brother/surrogate hubby relationship-purely platonic..she was a single Mom, 12 years my junior, but convenient for us both at the time to 'set up house' together-we had separate social lives) had such a son, so I know it works(see shopping/babysitting tip above...I was exhibiting a 'nurturing/protective' attitude that long-term relationship gals were looking for subconsciously. apparently, and they came in droves and flocks!
I have found other effective techniques, but the bottom line:
1. stick to the truth at all times, it's much easier to remember 'one true story' that subsequent inquiries will inevitably expose/uncover, thus corroborate...it will happen!
2. avoid bars/clubs as 'girl shopping' areas, unless you are a 'knight in shining armor', and can afford to put up with the complications tha always seem to arise...still recommended against, but YMMV. YMMV adversely to exceptions more often than not-be forewarned!
3. avoid preconceptions and expectations, enjoy and treasure the jewels you find...even if they are not 'that right one'
4. beauty is not skin deep...beauty is like a properly cut, dressed, faceted, and polished gemstone. There are many facets that combine to make true beauty, which endures
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
People like to label things, it makes things easier: you can skip the nuances. You are not a geek, you're a guy with technical interests, introverted character traits. And probably some character traits that are not often associated with geekyness, like being a great story teller or being good at some sport - other than chess ;-)
Start looking at yourself as a cool guy with a geeky job, because you happen to like that. Gives you a whole different self-image. Cultivate a few non-geek capabilities or learn some. Learn how to listen to other people instead of constantly talking about yourself or the things that interest you - not saying that you do this but I see it happen often enough. If you ask about them, if you (try) genuinely to understand them instead of explaining yourself, they will like you.
And then meet a lot of people, the dancing thing is OK, but making a habit of talking to people when you meet them helps lowering barriers - while waiting for a lift, standing in line,...
There's lots of great advice in this thread about location, and tips on how not to freak someone else out.
But one thing to keep in mind, probably tip number 1 in my mind anyways, is once you've met someone interesting, don't forget to pull the trigger.
By this, I mean you have to act if you want to get anywhere. Don't worry too much about the consequences of said actions, and play it relaxed. So, if you see a lady you might be interested in, strike up a conversation. See if you can get 5 minutes of not-uncomfortable small talk. If you can get that far, maybe ask if she'd like to continue the conversation over coffee. Don't suggest coffee at a later date (but don't argue if that's what she counters with) -- just do it.
Commit yourself to coffee and nothing more. Do your best to convince yourself that the entire meeting ends once the cup is empty, and just focus on having a meaningful encounter for 20 or 30 minutes.
If things are going well, hint that it would be fun to meet up again sometime. If she agrees, ask for her number.
When you call her back, have something interesting that you'd like to suggest doing. Dinner is always safe, but make sure the restaurant matches the girl (eg. if during coffee she mentioned that she moved from the coast to Wisconsin, and misses Indian food, see if you can find somewhere with a wicked curry - don't, however, just book a dinner at a nice restaurant and assume that's OK). Better than dinner, try finding an activity, with a fixed start and stop time, that could be fun for both of you. Maybe there's a con or a concert in the park, or you and some friends are heading to the beach for an afternoon with a bar-b-q (note: this is only a good idea if there are other ladies coming, four dudes on an empty beach will be creepy).
If you think things are going well, and you feel a spark, initiate some kind of physical encounter. Start with casual touch (putting your hand on her shoulder, or on the small of her back), then move up to less casual from there. The more basic contact there is, the less creepy non-standard contact will seem. That is, if you kiss someone out of nowhere it will feel strange. If you have already been in physical contact, it's the next logical step. Also, this gives you a good way to assess how she's feeling. If she recoils in terror, you're probably not getting lucky tonight. If she's fine with it, or if she seems into it, awesome. Then, by all means, man up and kiss her when the time seems good. (But don't' wait too long or she'll get confused and think that you're her new gay knitting friend. You have intentions, let her know them.) A lot of geeks fool themselves into not acting on the physical side, by saying things like 'I'm respecting her boundaries by letting her pick the level of physicality...' Blah blah blah, most (not all) women are taught to not initiate things like a first kiss - they are supposed to flirt and encourage you to act, but not to actually do it. If you don't, you'll both end up waiting.
At this point, I leave the rest up to you.
OK, so this seems like pretty basic advice, but all of this is a specific counter to something that would block your standard socially awkward introvert:
- Not starting a conversation. (Just talk to her!)
- Not asking for a date. (Coffee is a date, but isn't scary.)
- Putting too much pressure on the first date. (You're just meeting someone, not assessing their potential as a life partner)
- Not calling her back. (Why do people ask for numbers they won't use?)
- Being over the top, or too generic in the second date. (Pick specific, interesting, encounters. And yes, your selection is a test.)
- Scared of physical encounter. (Touching is good.)
- Not getting past the friend barrier. (Once you are kissing someone, they have a good idea of where the relationship is going.)
don't view non-geeks as "mundane". The "meatspace" will earn the "weird" label, but the "mundane" will earn the "motherfucking asshole" label, and justifiably so.
At least he did not call them muggles.....
Truthfully I'm an IT guy as well my downtime I like Video games and Anime. I met my wife to be at a convention believe it or not. Women are actually doing the convention scene. When I started doing Cons in the 90's women were rare but now there is almost a 1:1 ratio. The 4 Cons I attended before meeting my fiancee I was leaving with numbers and I'm not a great looking guy but girls are out there seeking guys like them. We have a good relationship its kind of cool playing and MMO and she's in the game with me makes RAIDS fun. Going to the movies is also a great experiance as we saw Lord of the Rings together. So if you are a guy looking for a babe go to the CON scene.
> ...women most dislike about geeks is their lack of personal style/confidence
Confidence and style; also breadth and depth.
The grandparent suggested a motorcycle, but that's just one way to appear confident. Become competent in a few areas outside computer tech; learn and practice things that will give you confidence about your abilities.
Martial arts is one; as you progress, it naturally gives you more confidence. But so does softball and playing a musical instrument. Pick something(s) non-geeky. Try several to find out what you like.
If you are weak in conversational skills, spend time learning and practicing them. Don't overlook Dale Carnegie's books.
Also shift enough of your focus away from tech to be able to converse in some depth about subjects that appeal to non-geeks. That's the depth part.
Don't substitute one obsession for another. Be able to discuss a number of subjects in fair depth. That's the breadth part.
As you acquire greater conversational skills, you learn how to listen and learn from the conversations. You learn how to participate in discussions about subjects you don't know a lot about, because you demonstrate that you are willing and able to listen and learn.
As far as style, avoid the temptation to shortcut by adopting someone else's style; don't just copy someone. Learn a bit about what works for you, and what you're comfortable with.
A portly 5'6" man won't look good in the same style as a lean 6 footer, and he wont look good in the same styles as a 300 pound body-builder.
If you adopt suits and ties but aren't comfortable in them, it shows. Being comfortable, in clothes and situations, is part of being confident.
... that's bollocks. Not that I'm taking QI as the arbiter of whether something is bollocks or not. Discussion here (do a search for "Camel") and as discussed in the show.
Also The Straight Dope.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
The trick is finding someone who shares enough similarities. Even just "we get along extremely well" can be enough of a baseline; everything else is optional.
However, there are a few dissimilarities you need to be wary of. Location is one thing; long-distance relationships are not easy. Free time is even worse; my last (and admittedly first) relationship broke down because my GF was so busy with her social life (lots of ultra-important occasions that will never come around again) that I was tempted to get her a copy of Outlook so we could schedule meetings. In the end I told her that she'd have to call me when she has free time for me (which apparently was very rare) and two months later she broke up with me because I never came over anymore.
That relationship left me with two (actually more but the rest are too discouraging to mention) insights: First, I'm happy I'm not that social a person; having your social life be equivalent to a part-time job really messes up your schedule. Second, I'm not entering into a relationship with a person with that kind of social life again. I'm not going to spend twenty hours a week meeting people I don't know on the off chance of perhaps actually spending an afternoon with my partner (if I even get invited/can afford to come along, that is).
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
There's a small trick somebody not habituated to meatspace can easily pick up: if you wear all black, it's dead easy to look good (for some values of good, but still better than not bothering), and easy enough to finetune. Additionally, the goth subculture is particularly friendly to geeks, consisting (in places) largely of geeks.
A lot has been said here allready, and a lot of it is important: Patience, Persistance, Success by volume of throughput, focussing on non-IT stuff, etc.
What can help is structured social interaction. That doesn't exist anymore and was lost throught the last 100 years - aside from very small and limited areas. One of them is dancing, more percisely: Tango dancing.
I got lured into it by a former colleague of mine, a teacher I once worked with. She asked me to join her in Tango lessons, since I have stage-dance and Aikido experience and she could use a little help. I agreed and didn't think much of it and expected to drop pair-dancing right after the course again. However, I'm *totally* hooked! Tango is a very hermetic scene - and for good reasons too - with own dance events called Milongas and an eventually very close and intimate style of interaction between the dancing partners.
As a super-geek and nerd I find that Tango covers a lot of aspects for me that would otherwise be beyond my controll:
1) People dancing tango are smart and more on the intellecutal side of things - no ultimate idiots or drunkards involved, as Tango requires a working brain (and a little more) to do. I've allways felt that clubs are stupid and pointless. Now I know it and have found a place where people go that think the same way.
2) Modern Tango and Tango Nuevo in particular still have the important remainders of formalized interaction between the sexes as seen around 1900 or so. You need to get confident in asking the next lady to a dance (or 10 dances as the case may be) but with pratice your confidence grows and even a turndown (which I've both gotten and also given) is allways polite and non-offensive. It's even possible to dance with ladies that don't even speak your language, or only a little. ... Like that cute slender Korean beauty thats currently visiting her local relatives and visiting Europe and will be at my favorite Milonga on wednesday again ... :-))) Asking to a dance can be done with simple gestures - no speaking involved.
3) All abount pair-dancing but also the special thing called Tango (Tango is not generic latin dancing - its an own thing) can be formally learned like learning programming techniques or a martial arts style. You can rehearse the steps and styles on your own or with another insecure member or your or the opposite sex. There are quite a few of those too, you'd be supprised. It also is a normal thing to switch leads and practice with members of the same gender, especially for men. That comes from the olden days when access to women was rare and wide and far between and you wanted to be good when the chance to prove yourself in leading a lady came up.
4) Lot's of people dancing tango are motion legastenics themselves, so if you put a little extra effort into it (I go to 3 milongas a week and take at least to classes with different Tangoschools) you'll be king of the dancefloor in no time. I had ladies lining up to dance with me last week at my favourite weekly milonga! Seriously. You can imagine how that feels - and it *does* feel great.
5) Tango is a cheap and fullfilling. Dancing shoes and some chump change for non-alcoholic drinks at Milongas and the admittance boil down to 50 Euros a month at max. And that's if I by drinks for two ladies per milonga. Which I rarely do.
6) Dancing Tango with a Lady is a *very* good method to find out if she's a good partner and mistress. It goes just as well the other way around. 3 dances and I'll tell you if the lady and I go well together. And we won't need to speak a word.
7) Since scoring a pickup is a secondary and having fun dancing is a primary for all people involved theres a lot of humor and nonchalence involved in all social interactions. You sit together with the guys and judge the ladies and the ladies sit together and do the same. Experienced ladies and the Tango instructors in your local scene will acutally come up to you and tell you that you sho
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
That is assuming that you can actually walk into a church without, you know, bursting into flames. Some of us are kind of screwed on that account.
this podcast explains the fundamentals of being attractive to women. After about 10eps you realise why you never got a date at high school. After a little troubleshooting of your appearance and behaviour, women actually starting chasing after you. it's wierd.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
That relationship left me with two (actually more but the rest are too discouraging to mention) insights: First, I'm happy I'm not that social a person; having your social life be equivalent to a part-time job really messes up your schedule. Second, I'm not entering into a relationship with a person with that kind of social life again. I'm not going to spend twenty hours a week meeting people I don't know on the off chance of perhaps actually spending an afternoon with my partner (if I even get invited/can afford to come along, that is).
I think you can condense those two insights into one: you learned a little about what works for you.
I'm not a very social person either, I like to recharge by doing as little as possible. My wife likes to go out every now and then because she can't stand just hanging around the house. The reason it works though, is that neither of us is at either end of the spectrum so we're able to meet in the middle. Some days we stay in and watch a movie and other days we go to the park or host a party. It's very important that if you don't share the same level of introversion/extroversion that you're at least able to reach a compromise. While you probably walked away from that relationship a little sore it sounds like you also walked away a little wiser. ;)
To answer the original question, I live in an area where finding local geeks is pretty difficult. To fill that need I communicate with them on the Internet and occasionally try to arrange meet-ups when I'm vacationing in their area. I dated a geek girl for a while in high school but found it way too difficult because we tended to end up in power struggles on the topic of computers. Even if you define yourself as a geek you shouldn't limit yourself to searching for friends and women in the same field. Try to diversify as much as possible.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
I was tempted to get her a copy of Outlook so we could schedule meetings.
Outlook!? Hand over your geek card. You'll get it back in two weeks, that'll give you some time to think about using such expensive lazy-ass solutions.
;-) )
(That should help you with the ladies, you can thank me later
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
So says the man with an 8 digit UID
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I hate to sound like every Disney and sitcom character during the epiphany stage of the movie or episode, but the honest answer is that you just have to come to terms with yourself before you'll be able to find the confidence to meet people.
All the above advice about what you should or shouldn't do, where you should or shouldn't go, isn't going to matter one bit if you arn't comfortable enough with yourself to be able to offer the good times, support, excitement, and attraction that your potential mate is looking for in a man. To be an attractive candidate, you have to be self-sustaining. You have to make it clear that you are low maintenance and willing and able to shrug off the small stuff so that you can give a girl the uncomplicated, stress-free, not-difficult-in-any-way good times that she's been looking for. The moment you start to clam up or backpedal or panic, their interest in you will dry up.
In other words, once you learn to let go a bit, stop fretting over finding someone, stop self-analyzing and being self-conscious, and finally become honest and comfortable with the type of person that you are, you'll be able to be open and honest with the people you meet. You won't have to ever put on a show or google for jedi mind tricks you can use in social situations, because you'll be strong enough to say "if this person likes me, then great. If not, that's fine, we're just not the right type for each other" and move on.
That's not to say that it's not possible to find someone who's equally 'immature' in terms of their self-discovery who would be willing to spend time with you. But neither of you will be happy because it will be a constant effort to prove yourselves to each other over and over until someone can't deal with it any more. Any woman who HAS reached that level of maturity will recognize that you're not ready for a relationship shortly after you approach them, and hopefully let you down easy.
I find that the challenges inherent in describing to someone how to be emotionally mature are reminiscent of Plato's allegory of the cave. Once you see the light it's difficult to come back and describe how to find it to the people who are looking for the truth. It IS there, though, a self-discovery waiting to happen, and when you find it, you'll wonder how you could ever have had trouble finding your very own sweetheart. There isn't much I can do to tell you about how to interpret yourself, though. That's why there isn't such a thing as man page for the human heart.
I'll start this long post with a story to illustrate my point:
A few years ago, I was living down in Boca Raton, FL. For those who don't know the area, this is a little north of Miami along the east coast. One weekend, I drove down to Key West to go kayaking (by myself). I'd been out for a few hours, when I stopped off to eat lunch at a little island off the coast (just barely close enough to still see the coastline, probably further out than is really safe with the tidal patterns down there). To my surprise, I found another person there. She had been out kayaking as well, and her kayak sprung a leak. We split my lunch and I looked at her kayak, which was beyond what we could repair out on the island. At this point, it is getting late, and the tide is turning. I was in a single kayak, so there wasn't room for both of us. I didn't want to take off and leave her there, and she refused to leave me there with her kayak. We ended up spending the night out on this little scrub island, and the next morning she took my kayak in (I was picked up later that day when her kayak outfitter sent out a boat). Once back, I paddled down to my outfitter, turned my kayak in and drove back to Boca. Later that night, she shows up at my place. We eventually dated for about 8 months, before she was transferred to Virginia.
She had some very geeky traits, which I loved (what really impressed me at first was that she managed to find my address so quickly). If you want to meet people, just go do things. You can be a geek and still be active. I play sports, I go to local events/museums/etc. Do it long enough, and you'll start seeing the same people over and over, possibly making new friends, or even *friends*.
If you want the education route, take some social science courses at your closest uni. While I'm a sysadmin, and I took a bunch of engineering courses, my actual degree is in anthropology (with a N.A. archaeology focus). Most of my classes, in all social science disciplines, were about 75% female once I got beyond the gen ed cruft (Intro Psych, History I/II, etc). A lot of these types are smart and very geeky, but in a way that you probably don't have much experience with. Which is good. Two geeks with different interests makes for a fun ride, you can really learn a lot from each other.
Summary: If you want to be active, be active. Go to free concerts (a lot of smaller towns have weekly get-togethers like this), go to museums, join some pickup sports leagues (you don't have to be good, most people in these kinda leagues suck). Take art/pottery/etc classes, enroll at your uni. Try exericse. Group hikes/bikes are great, or sign up for yoga courses (flexibility is never bad). Have a poker night with your coworkers, go to a ball game with them, etc. Take a cooking course (ladies love a man who can cook something more complex than chicken and rice). Want something really different? Take the little 1-2 hour workshops at places like Lowes or Home Depot. You'd be amazed how many ladies you find at these, trying to figure out how to do repairs to their houses.
But in all this, don't approach it as a way to meet women. You'll just set yourself up for disappointment. We're nerds, we're supposed to love learning new things. Approach it that way. When you're hiking, try to understand the mechanics of it. If you're at a pottery class, try to learn more about the material, and how the constituents affect the final product. Focus on the geek side of life, learning new things, and let the socializing come along as it will. Once you've started getting comfortable, then you can be more of an active socializer. When you do get into a conversation, don't say a lot. Ask questions that let the other person talk. You know, *learn* about them. Also a great way to gauge interest. If they keep turning the conversation to you, then you can be fairly sure they're interested.
If you think you might fit the Aspergers profile, get a professional evaluation. There are too many people on the internet who use self-diagnosed Assburgers as an excuse to be assholes.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's no secret. Just like anything else in life it takes practice to get results.
.NET while at a Super Bowl party. And hey who knows maybe one day you'll be sleeping with your girlfriends best friend (or sister or... mother) or getting high fives from your mates for doing lines of coke off a stripper's ass.
It's like the first time you walk into a gym or play soccer or play WoW or juggle chainsaws. It's intimidating at first but you have to get out there and do it to get any good at it. Some people are born with innate talent that allows them to excel at being social. It helps to have natural charisma or good looks. However, the rest of us can improve by doing and doing over and over again till we get better.
You're not going to get good at making friends or meeting girls or being the life of the party by sitting on the sidelines. In the beginning you won't know what you're doing, you may embarrass yourself, make a complete fool of yourself, or set something on fire by accident but in the long run you only lose if you stop trying. With time you'll learn that it's not good to bring up your anime fetish while talking to girls or debate the finer points of Java vs
Starting out is simple. Just go someplace where there are many people having a good time (someplace not online) and introduce yourself. Alcohol helps.
Anyway, Malcolm Gladwell says it takes 10 years or 10,000 hours to become accomplished at anything. So you better get started.
I'd rather be alone than lower my standards that far.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Courtesy of craigslist best-ofs:
It was last Friday. I had just gotten up from a SWEET game of Warcraft on my PC.
Anyway, I realized I was dangerously low on Mountain Dew, so I threw on my lucky green sweat pants and my trenchcoat to walk 3 blocks to the convenience store. I figured if I had enough change, I might even pick up some Slim Jims, but I digress...
On my way back to my apartment, Dew and Slim Jims in hand, I saw you and your friends walking into the Jazz club across the street. You seemed so comfortable and cool dressed to the nines for an evening of drinks and dancing with those closest to you.
It was then that I knew I had to meet you. Although I had never been in that particular establishment, I followed you in. You probably would have seen me, but I was slowed by an argument with the doorman over my attire. After a few minutes, I think I had him convinced I looked ok, but then he proceeded to ask me for $10 just to walk into the bar. I couldn't believe they wanted to charge me just to get in. I, of course had no money, having spent every spare cent on caffeine and sticks of processed beef. I walked back to the convenience store and failed in my effort to return the goods I had so recently purchased. Luckily, the store had an ATM, so I pleaded with the checker to hold my purchases behind the counter for a short time, and I withdrew $20 from the cash machine. Armed with my fresh $20 bill, I marched to the Jazz Club, paid the $10 cover, and went looking for the woman of my dreams.
I saw you immediately, near the bar with your friends. You were at the end of the group with some space next to you, so I settled in close. You noticed me once or twice as I cleared my throat nervously trying to think of what to say. It sounded like you may have commented on my trenchcoat to one of your friends, but I couldn't be sure.
I finally bumped you to get your attention. I may have bumped to hard as I noticed you spilled some of your drink on your shirt. Sorry about that.
ME: So... Do you come here often?
YOU: No. (you turn back to your friends)
ME: Me neither. I hate bars. I can't come to terms with why anyone would want to pay such high margins on watered down drinks they could make at home for a fraction of the cost... (I trail off noticing you aren't listening)
I regroup and lean in close to your ear...
ME: What are you drinking there?
YOU: (barely looking over your should back to me) A gin and tonic.
ME: Can I buy you one?
YOU: I already have one, see... (you hold up your drink sarcastically)
ME: Well then, can I reimburse you for the one you are drinking?
YOU: What? (looking at me now)
ME: Let me pay you back for that one.
YOU: Whatever. (looking puzzled and annoyed)
ME: How much was it?
YOU: What?
ME: How much is a gin and tonic?
YOU: Five dollars
ME: Jesus Christ! What fool pays $5 for a freakin' drink? That's robbery!!!
YOU: Get away from me.
ME: (embarrassed by my outburst) No, no, no. I said I'd pay you for it, so I will. (reaching in my pocket) Do you have change for a $10?
You: What?
ME: I only have a ten dollar bill? Do you have five dollars change?
YOU: (turning to face me completely and folding your arms as your friends quiet down to watch our interaction) Actually, this drink was $6 with tip.
ME: What?
YOU: My drink. It was $5 plus $1 for tip!
ME: Damn, this is getting expensive. Ok, do you have $4 change for my $10.
YOU: No.
ME: Well, then I'll have to get change from the bartender.
YOU: Don't bother. Leave me alone. (you turn back to your friends as they erupt in laughter)
I spend 10 mintues trying to get the bartender's attention. I can't blame him much because he was very busy serving so many other morons begging to be robbed of their hard earned dollars. When he finally gets to me,