Slashdot Mirror
India To Put All Citizen Info In a Central Database
Oracle Goddess writes "As part of a project to issue ID cards for all 1.1 billion of its citizens, India has announced plans to place information on every single citizen in what will be the world's second largest citizens' database. The government believes the scheme will aid the delivery of vital social services to the poorest people who often lack sufficient identification papers. It also sees the scheme as a way to tackle increasing amounts of identity fraud and theft, and, at a time of increased concern over the threat of militant violence, to boost national security and help police and law officials. 'This could be used as a security measure by the government which leaves migrant workers, refugees and other stateless people in India in limbo, without access to public services, employment and basic welfare,' said Charu Lata Hogg, an associate fellow of the Asia program at Chatham House."
When I read "Your Rights Online: India To Put All Citizen Info In a Central Database" I was horrified, But then I read further and realized that, while bad, it wasn't nearly as bad as the headline makes it sound.
Turns out they're only planning on putting some data about the citizens in the database. But it looks like people will still be allowed to keep their own grocery lists and address books etc. and manage them however they wish.
For now at least.
--MarkusQ
Hey dammit, we had the idea of reducing everyone to a number long before you did, and we're the only ones that should have to suffer with that kind of stupidity. You can steal our jobs, but don't steal our retarded government ideas -- as a patriot, I simply must draw the line there!
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Sort of like the IRS? They have how much money you make, where you live, what you own, who you're married to, and who are your kids.
India currently has no real way of identifying a person uniquely - other than a passport. Most formal government identification systems are uncontrolled and easily available in exchange for money. So we dont really have a credit system, no social security number etc. One recent change was PAN cards - a tax identification number.
So this could will help a lot in uniquely identifying a person - especially in a country where there are 28 languages, and where migration of labor has started increasing substantially.
This is also being led by Nandan Nilekini of Infosys fame.
[An estimated 100M id cards will be rolled out in 3 years]
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it. This can save lives and can get us more accurate reporting about how important it is to, say, find a cure for AIDS over a cure for cancer.
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
We're so accustomed in the West to distrust of government that we've lost sight of the basic truth: it matters who you get into government, and how willing they are to fight back corruption (entropy). We can't regulate government into sanity. But we can pick sane people, although mass media democracy isn't so good at that.
Instead of fighting back at any recordkeeping, we might consider the following:
People like to have something tangible and external to blame. It wasn't my fault; God did it. It wasn't my fault; The 1984 Government did it. Leftists claim government is capitalist and dominated by white men; Rightists claim government is socialist and against white men. It seems every group is projecting its fears outside of itself in order to claim innocence.
Futurist Traditionalism
Is it possible to have national taxes/benefits without a federal database? Drivers' licenses are issued by state, and each state has a database of its licensees. Federal income tax is federal, and there's a federal ID for it (SSN).
Slashdot readers, little help? If universal healthcare were implemented in the US, wouldn't we need a federal database for it?
You're already in several federal databases, plus who knows how many databases owned by multinational corportaions. The time to panic has long passed, and apparently you slept through it.
Caveat Utilitor
I think I know how this will work out.
I already have a national ID card which lets me vote, I have a PAN number which tracks literally every economic transaction of significance I make. They know everything about my vehicles and my travel arrangements.
Now, they're going to pay someone to build a system which correlates all this into some useless information. It'll take six years to build & cost tons of money for the government, half of which will end up being passed under the table as kickbacks and the rest with the contractors. Eventually, the system will be built and works fairly decently, but has no information about anyone who does not really volunteer it first-hand.
It'll be done, but completely useless. Some people will become rich and ... as the general attitude will be "I want less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it". A complete waste of tax payer's money, but not quite the invasion of my privacy that most people imagine.
But hell yeah, I'm going to protest. Even their incompetence can't be depended up on :)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
As a citizen of India, I whole-heartedly welcome this measure. One of the benefits (amongst many) is that native Indian citizens will not be marginalized by hordes of illegal immigrants who have crossed the borders of our country. That might sound callous, and yes, it indeed is, but the harsh reality is that many regions of our country have had their demographics completely changed by vast, un-checked immigration from Bangladesh and Burma. These immigrants zealously bring their religion with them - the one with the conspicuous lack of family planning or birth control and outdated ideas regarding education and treatment of women. (I assume you can guess which one)
For a country like India which is already heavily overpopulated with a severe lack of natural resources, such immigration is just breaking the elephant's back. A national identity card system will go a long way to address this severe problem.
I am aware that Americans strongly believe in individual privacy and are only too eager to shudder and sneer at such measures. Privacy is a valid concern, but the need for privacy is stronger in the West and lesser in the East - one f those strange cultural differences - it simply matters less to us here. And in the hierarchy of needs, the rights of basic citizenship and access to government resources matters more than an individual need for privacy.
Will the system be fool-proof? Of course not. It will be hacked - I expect it will be hacked both socially (corruption) and through technology and will definitely be misused a number of times for fake identities. The risk of misuse, however, is not a sufficient argument against the very real need for introduction of such an identity system in our country.
India is a corrupt democracy.
The more rules and laws are present, the more corrupt the government becomes.
I bet my ass that billions of dollars will be spent to implement it, with doubtful results.
The really criminal and refugees will escape by paying the local officials and politicians.
The poor lower end will get their cards after they pay some money.
The middle class will be harassed since most move around the contry.
The uber-rich will not care.
In short another fiasco to add to the many fiascos called government programmes.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
How incredibly appropriate. Their uniform will consist of brown shirts, perhaps with pantlegs tucked into their boots.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
... is that *actually* we all would like to have a government that does not know anything about us and doesn't care who we are and what we do as long as we don't act as criminals or work in sensible areas.
This is a very simple thing to understand: As long as you don't mess around with your neighbours they don't need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your larger community it does not need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your government it does not need to know anything about you. In an ideal world you could be born, live and die without your government even knowing about you as long as you don't try to do something that harms the government or the community the government cares for.
Of course it doesn't work this way because there will always be a minority of people trying to get away from what they've done or who switch identities to be able to plot and steel and murder without being caught. And the more complex and mobile a society becomes the less you can rely on people not being able to exploit this. Nowadays and in the future this means that "leave me alone as long as I leave you alone" won't work anymore (if it ever did).
So, yes: There is no way around databases of citizens, identity cards and all this shit. The sooner we accept this, the better. Because once you have accepted this you can start to look at the real problem and the real problem is securing all this against abuse and tampering both by the government and interested third parties. The real problem is not someone knowing everything about you, the real problem is *you* knowing nothing about everyone else and the government (or corporations) having both the power and the freedom to abuse what they have.
And there are no simple solutions to all these problems. Todays highly virtualized, mobile and complex societies create totally new problems which need new solutions. We're not made for this and we have no build-in solutions to these problems. Every solution the ape in you suggests is probably wrong. Don't trust your first thoughts. We are building this world as we go and we can only try to do it as best as we can.
I read the news and was quite impressed by it. It seems like a great idea, having basic information about the citizens available, and being able to provide better service using it. And if implemented it will be a great help for the people too, being able to have a single ID to serve as their Ration cards, Voter ID, PAN cards, Driving license, Electricity bill payments etc.
The most immediate problem however is that the infrastructure to utilize this kind of information is absent, and is not going to be widely available for several years to come. The vital social services that the govt. intends to provide to the poorest are not in a very good shape, and identity information is the least of the problems. The IT infrastructure required to facilitate interactions via IDs is limited to big cities.
I don't have much concern about the breach of privacy. I expose several orders of magnitude greater information about myseff on internet and social networks than what the govt. plans to collect. And this information has been collected through National Population Census since several decades. It will just be more accessible now.
Also, how are they going to generate and distribute these ID cards? In a country of over a billion people, where a significant portion of the population doesn't even have voter ID cards, its going to add several layer of more bureaucracy, corruption and red tape. As someone already pointed out, they don't have any means to enforce it on those who don't want it, and the middle class will be the one to suffer the most.
At the risk of sounding defeatist, I still maintain, its a nice idea, but both impractical and premature.
Parent poster is the reason why such a National ID Card is a bad idea for India.
This card will become a means to make people prove their "Indianness".
This is a very bad idea in a nation as diverse and full of competing ethnic/religious/language groups as India.
People should not have to prove that they are Indian.
Making people do so will poison the soul of this nation and cause existing divisions in society to deepen rather than be healed.
You are one of the privileged few who generate enough income to be above the threshold to pay taxes.Not the entire population of India has a PAN number or a ration card or any form of id whatsoever. The central idea of the national id is NOT to track citizens. Its main aim is to counter the major malpractices that thwart the efficacy of public welfare programs, where government provided benefits are usurped fraudulently by intermediate crooks (some of whom are a part of the govt machinery) Its the pessimism of the likes of you that holds us back.The kickbacks and under the table aspects are one of the major reasons why this has been entrusted to Nilekani. Get your facts right. After a long long time we have a government that is trying to sincerely uplift the masses. If you cant support them, at least dont hinder them.