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Goldman Sachs Trading Source Code In the Wild?

Hangtime writes "The world's most valuable source code could be in the wild. According to a report by Reuters, a Russian immigrant and former Goldman Sachs developer named Sergey Aleynikov was picked up at Newark Airport on July 4th by the FBI on charges of industrial espionage. According to the complaint, Sergey, prior to his early June exit from Goldman, copied, encrypted and uploaded source code inferred to be the code used by Goldman Sachs to process in real-time (micro-seconds) trades between multiple equity and commodity platforms. While trying to cover his tracks, the system backed up a series of bash commands so he was unable to erase his history, which would later give him away to Goldman and the authorities. So the question is: where are the 32MB of encrypted files that Sergey uploaded to a German server?

324 comments

  1. huh by amnezick · · Score: 1, Funny

    Oh look: now they check FBIs intel on LinkedIn to see if they got it right.

    --
    mov ax,4c00h
    int 21h
    1. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ror, +5 Informative

    2. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think this is hilarious (as usual). You should have a blog or something where you post all of these stories. They're awesome!

    3. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't say who the op was, but the author of the content is http://www.trollaxor.com/

  2. Surely not? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can't believe that Goldman's algorithmic trading code is more valuable than its list of root passwords to governments all over the world...

    1. Re:Surely not? by McGiraf · · Score: 2, Informative

      A root password list is no source code...

    2. Re:Surely not? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What if having the code allowed you to analyse it for ways to game the system? Knowing precisely how the system will react in certain circumstances could give you a serious leg up when attacking the system on the markets (trade limitations, trend spotting for error codes or edge cases et al).

      This code could be worth significant amounts of money on the international fraud market.

    3. Re:Surely not? by GigaHurtsMyRobot · · Score: 0, Troll

      I'm trying to figure out the value in it at all, by itself or to another trading platform...

    4. Re:Surely not? by GigaHurtsMyRobot · · Score: 2, Informative
      It would help if I RTFA:

      The platform is one of the things that apparently gives Goldman a leg-up over the competition when it comes to rapid-fire trading of stocks and commodities. Federal authorities say the platform quickly processes rapid developments in the markets and uses top secret mathematical formulas to allow the firm to make highly-profitable automated trades.

      --

      sounds like cheating to me...

    5. Re:Surely not? by mysidia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Passwords can be easily changed by any old sysadmin, with minimal damage, as long as the passwords are changed quickly, or remote access is locked out, the damage can easily be mitigated very rapidly.

      Changing source code (to allay use of it by the thief to attack its owners, beat GS at their own game, or sell to competitors), is time-consuming, and requires the assistance of many software experts (programmers).

      The damage can only be mitigated by shutting down the system, and waiting a long time for changes to get made, or for the software to get rewritten, to protect against evil third parties knowing the trading system's flaws.

    6. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. Analyzing the source code will tell you how Goldman Sachs trades its stuff. It's not valuable because it was so expensive to develop this stuff, it's expensive because it shows how they play the game with what kind of strategy, and the stakes of the game is extremely high. It's like knowing how your opponent plays poker when the stakes are on the magnitude of billions of dollars.

      If the source code is in the wild, Goldman Sachs is forced to stop all related real-time trades, because their strategy is completely exposed, and once somebody exploits it, they will lose money really quickly. (Just imagine how many transactions they can make per second, and imagine every one of those transactions lose some money in average.) That means they get forced to leave the market until they develop a new trading system, or at least, re-develop their strategy. That costs a lot of money because they have to stop doing investments and leave the money some place safe.

    7. Re:Surely not? by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Excellent! If knowing the source code for _financial trading mechanisms_ allows for gaming the system, then it's a very good thing that the code was exposed. If anything, I'd expect banking code to resist outside intrusion.

      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    8. Re:Surely not? by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

      This may end up being pretty damned interesting. GS has a long history of market manipulation from insider trading to installing plants in the media through subsidiaries who appear and disappear over-night to gaming IPOs to make sure the right people get a payday (ie. Yang and Yahoo). Though I wouldn't hold my breath, stacking the deck against suckers is generally "nothing to see here" issue.

    9. Re:Surely not? by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Based on what the markets have been up to, I'd say this code has been out there and has been actively exploited for at least 18 months.

      --
      stuff |
    10. Re:Surely not? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not talking about exploits or bugs, I'm talking about knowing *precisely* how the code will react in given circumstances, *precisely* which edge cases are handled in code, *precisely* what results in an error state and how that error state is handled.

      Knowing such things will allow you to tailor your fraudulant trades so as to not raise suspicion, or to make more money within a set amount of time. If you know precisely how far to push your actions, and then push no further, then you could continue with the same fraud for longer than you would otherwise without being discovered. If you know how often the trend analysis reports are run, and how they do what they do, then you can tailor your trades so as to not appear on those reports - just enough, no more.

      All of which means you can make more money without being detected - and you haven't attacked the software itself, you haven't changed how the code works, you have stayed within the boundaries that the software creates. All because you knew *precisely* how the code works.

    11. Re:Surely not? by infolation · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The online gambling industry analyzes the games made on their system against games played by known gambling software to identify players cheating.

      Perhaps GS haven't immediately stopped real-time trading using their existing system because they're able to analyze trades made by other brokerages to identify patterns that would indicate whether their own trading system is being used by others.

    12. Re:Surely not? by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be fair: Goldman Sachs has way more control over government policies than a mere root password would give them. They don't just have root passwords, they have root passwords, physical access, and insider support.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    13. Re:Surely not? by funkatron · · Score: 1

      What if having the code allowed you to analyse it for ways to game the system?

      Then you'd just be another trader in the market. The whole point is to game the system to your advantage

      :

      --
      "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    14. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So G&S were using a glider this whole time? fuckin noobs..

    15. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Maybe Goldman is worried that if someone reviews the code, they might be able to discover that Goldman is gaming the system and the source code is just the smoking gun.

      Surely that would be a much bigger problem for Goldman Sachs than an individual or small groups trying (probably unsuccessfully) to game the market.

    16. Re:Surely not? by WindowlessView · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm talking about knowing *precisely* how the code will react in given circumstances,

      It's an advantage for sure, but maybe not a slam dunk. It's likely that those systems are highly parameter driven. Without knowing the values of whatever tables they have set up for the day/hour/minute your trades could get smacked pretty hard before figuring it out.

      --
      Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
    17. Re:Surely not? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, but you know the old saying. Give a man source code and he'll review for a day. Give a man the right passwords and he'll review source code until he gets locked away.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:Surely not? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Someone already HAD the source code - the people who wrote it. It would have been just as easy for them to abuse it. If you want to talk to me about how ethical these people are, two words: Bernie Madhoff.

      The code should be open source. That way nobody has an edge.

    19. Re:Surely not? by captainpanic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact that one can compare the strategy in big business with poker shows clearly why I think we're all better off when this whole banking business is downscaled a bit.

      While in the good old days the banking business was simply a place to store and borrow money, it has now become a mess so complicated that nobody really understands it anymore.

      It can be interesting to see what happens next... although I also realize that this accident can cause some innocent people to lose their jobs.

    20. Re:Surely not? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Well, SOMEBODY got rich off the economic meltdown.

    21. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Specifically, if you can second guess their pricing model, you can spot arbitrage opportunities where you can automatically buy/sell to Goldman Sachs. This is why algorithmic trading code is such a closely guarded strategic secret,

    22. Re:Surely not? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      to protect against evil third parties knowing the trading system's flaws.

      Evil third parties? What about first parties? You're saying Goldman Sachs isn't evil?

    23. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There will be so much infra managed by so many teams in the bank that nobody will have root passwords to everything from internet entry point through to a trading platform, if GS still allow root passwords to be used at all. Additionally there will be many firewalls between public side and anywhere you would be interested in getting to. A developer would have no Prod system access anyway (SOX).

    24. Re:Surely not? by Dishevel · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the old days banks were never "simply a place to store and borrow money". They started and have always been a place for bankers to make money by providing their customers a service. The real problem is the millions of people who throw their money in a bank they know nothing about.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    25. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My password is actually a Hello World in C#.

      // A. Cowardon

    26. Re:Surely not? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I never meant to give the impression that its a 'slam dunk', but it does put you into a better position than you would otherwise be.

    27. Re:Surely not? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Having root is far more valuable than having the source code...

      You can steal the source with root...
      You could steal other things with root...
      You could disrupt/modify trades with root...

      The source code will only teach you so much...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    28. Re:Surely not? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      and once somebody exploits it, they will lose money really quickly.

      You mean quicker than until now? ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    29. Re:Surely not? by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      Ever consider what it would be worth to a company that wanted to make the same kind of transactions that GS makes, therefore making the same kind of profit GS makes?

      Maybe this isn't about hosing GS, and more about making money.
      There is no profit in hosing GS - but there is plenty of profit in repeating their methods. Follow the money.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    30. Re:Surely not? by demachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is a pretty good expose up on Rolling Stone describing the nefarious behavior of Goldman Sachs. They are in general what you expect out of Wall Street types, greedy and unscrupulous but very good at what they do. Unfortunately what they are good at is creating devastation in their wake so they can take home multimillion dollar bonuses every year, and completely controlling our government so they can get away with it.

      --
      @de_machina
    31. Re:Surely not? by bdenton42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Depends on how their systems are organized and which root(s) you have. Having root to the source, build or test server doesn't necessarily mean you would be able to disrupt/modify trades on the production server. Even if you had root to the production server you may be able to disrupt/shutdown trades but modifying trades could require access to an Oracle server somewhere else. It all depends on if Goldman has any clue about system security.

    32. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Sure the Source Code will only teach you so much. Like being able to break in without needing root access passwords for one...

    33. Re:Surely not? by networkconsultant · · Score: 1

      Internaiontal fraud market - don't you mean Archipelago or Brut?

    34. Re:Surely not? by dimension6 · · Score: 1

      Although if you look at the recent stock price of GS, you'll see that there hasn't been a big drop recently. This means that the shareholders don't think this leakage is a big deal.

    35. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely they're not that stupid though:

      1) While the code may contain minor technical details of how limits are watched and responded to, the system is ultimately controlled by their investment specialists. This is not a fully-automated trading AI we're talking about here, there are human elements.

      2) Surely with the amount of money on the line, they're smart enough to inject true randomness. They know that people will try to game their game, and the simplest way to defeat that is to design the trading algorithms to use an RNG to inject small randomness into minor parts of the decisions re: prices and times. Just enough to throw off a concerted effort to reap a 1% margin from studying their patterns or whatever.

      3) Given how far along this story is (FBI involvement, slashdot hearing about it, etc), they've undoubtedly already changed key elements. It's not like they have to hire someone to rewrite all their software from scratch. They probably instructed some of their many other in-house coders to change a few key variables in the algorithms as soon as the leak was discovered.

    36. Re:Surely not? by sam0vi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and once somebody exploits it, they will lose money really quickly.

      Not necessarily. IANAE but they probably make money off the transactions, whoever makes them, and whoever profits from them. I think it would be analogous to obtaining the source code for the DowJones stock scoring system. DJ wouldn't be the first/most affected by it. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

      --
      When my Karma level reaches 0 I feel in piece with the Universe
    37. Re:Surely not? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, but the root password list consists of having large numbers of government positions filled with former (and future) GS employees.

      Hard to put that in a suitcase.

      A lot of money was funneled to GS by Paulsen (a GS alumni) and some of their major competitors were crippled.

      Recently close to 40% of NYSE volume was GS which gives them enormous power to manipulate prices.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    38. Re:Surely not? by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Knowing such things will allow you to tailor your fraudulant trades so as to not raise suspicion, or to make more money within a set amount of time. If you know precisely how far to push your actions, and then push no further, then you could continue with the same fraud for longer than you would otherwise without being discovered

      And if the public has access to this source code, we can figure out how someone trying to avoid detection would behave and nab them. Someone out there has access to this source code, and is almost certainly abusing it. Opening this source code would level the playing field. Absolutely nothing about our financial systems should be secret.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    39. Re:Surely not? by zigurat667 · · Score: 0

      Go RTFA the code was used to [b]process transactions[/b] no decission making involved that you could make a profit on, the only thing you could abuse would be delays to disrupt completion of transactions.

    40. Re:Surely not? by anonieuweling · · Score: 1

      Banks OWN the governments.
      Especially in the USA for the next few years if the people do nothing and remain apathetic.

    41. Re:Surely not? by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "While in the good old days the banking business was simply a place to store and borrow money, it has now become a mess so complicated that nobody really understands it anymore."

      The real problem is that stocks are a legalized ponzi sceheme and should be done away with entirely, it's basically a ponzi scheme through abstraction using machiens so you don't see the other people trying to fuck one another over for personal gain.

      Securities themselves are the problem they allow the wealthy to suck wealth out of society on unprecedented scales in a legal way that is entirely suspect to begin with. If we could get rid of things like securities and credit default swaps, savings would probably pay pay a hell of a lot better. Trading is just too enticing for those that have the mega bucks and quite rankly it's a drag on the real economy.

    42. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - i work on a quant trading desk very similar to the one at goldman. my guess is that the guy took the code that manages market data and *executes* high-speed trading, not the code that decides what to buy or sell. generally speaking quant traders don't tell the IT guy who writes and maintains the trading infrastructure the brains behind the code.

      to make it more accessible for non-finance guys it's like trying to steal a super-complex and secret encryption software but only taking the (still important) code that let's you read and write the results of the encryption faster but not having access to the encryption algorithm itself.

      on top of this, there exists certain strategies that having others know your strategy let's you make MORE money in the short to medium term.

    43. Re:Surely not? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      The code should be open source. That way nobody has an edge.

      Normally I agree with you, but not this time. This bit of code is one of those things that a company develops to get an edge, either through efficiency in transactions, or built in arbitrage handling, etc. It should not be open source by mandate, as it is a private interest. It is not like voting SW where it is written for a government operation (elections) and as such should be open to inspection. If you called for a peer review to verify lack of fraud and such, I'd agree with you. But to force it to be open? No.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    44. Re:Surely not? by nacturation · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's more like multi-level marketing than a ponzi. With a ponzi scheme, it's impossible to carry on long-term because the offer (investment) generally has no intrinsic value whatsoever. With multi-level marketing, the offer (product/service) generally does have value, but it comes with an overly inflated price resulting in a large number of people losing money in order to have others make money.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    45. Re:Surely not? by kgskgs · · Score: 2, Funny

      Did you hear the latest?

      They found the source code was just one file containing contained only the following lines

      #include "federal_reserve.h"

      int main ()
      {
          if (loss)
              {
                    feds->bailout();
                    executives->pay_bonus();
              }
            else
              {
                    stockholders->pay_dividend();
                    executives->pay_bonus();
                }
      }

    46. Re:Surely not? by metlin · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that stocks are a legalized ponzi sceheme and should be done away with entirely, it's basically a ponzi scheme through abstraction using machiens so you don't see the other people trying to fuck one another over for personal gain.

      Ah, the Slashdot school of finance.

      Investment is different from speculation which is different from mere gambling.

      Securities themselves are the problem they allow the wealthy to suck wealth out of society on unprecedented scales in a legal way that is entirely suspect to begin with. If we could get rid of things like securities and credit default swaps, savings would probably pay pay a hell of a lot better. Trading is just too enticing for those that have the mega bucks and quite rankly it's a drag on the real economy.

      Of course. Who wants to invest in companies? Let them all go to hell, I say! /snark

    47. Re:Surely not? by nacturation · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe Goldman is worried that if someone reviews the code, they might be able to discover that Goldman is gaming the system and the source code is just the smoking gun.

      The system is a game. As long as Goldman operates within the rules, it's all fair play.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    48. Re:Surely not? by peter_gzowski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I skimmed the Rolling Stone article, and it was difficult to find any specific evidence for what Taibbi is asserting. I have no doubt that Goldman is a huge behemoth that abuses its position to affect markets in a way that benefits itself at the expense of lower-tier investors, which makes it doubly dissapointing that Taibbi mounts such a weak attack. He chooses to fill his "expose" with invectives like [t]he world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money. To prove this point, he simply lists the former Goldman employees which are now, or were, in positions of power. I find the Frontline documentaries on this topic to be much more rational and informing:

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/
      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/breakingthebank/view/

      --
      "Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
    49. Re:Surely not? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      The code should be open source. That way nobody has an edge.

      Why not just take all the money in the system and distribute it to each citizen equally? That way, we won't have different classes of people and one comrade will not have a financial edge over another.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    50. Re:Surely not? by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Absolutely nothing about our financial systems should be secret.

      I don't understand this sentiment. If someone creates a model that predicts where the oil futures will go based on past performance in similar circumstances, you think that person should be required by law to reveal his model? Wouldn't that make it nearly impossible to make money in the stock market (as everyone would gravitate to one or two models endorsed by the big boys, and the only buying and selling would be people looking to begin investing in blue chips for the long haul or retiring from the market completely), thus reducing investment in companies, thus reducing funding, thus reducing R&D, thus reducing innovation? Sure, it might make VC funding more important, but that would lock out the small investors even more than they are now.

    51. Re:Surely not? by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "It's more like multi-level marketing than a ponzi. "

      The truth is they are both very similar, both metaphors are apt.

      When someone buys a stock at say 3 bucks, and another one at 3.50, the person who bought at 3 bucks can cash out and sell his stock to the ones buying at 3.50, it's still very ponzi ish when you get down to it and basically suspect to begin with the idea that when you invest money in shares you make good gains by other people buying the stock after you and selling before the other people do is playing a game.

      In ponzi scheme you have pyrmaid of taking someones money and using it to pay profits on the next persons money, etc, etc, ala bernie madoff, the stock market functions in similar way except using 'shares' as an abstraction for people. Multi level marketing bears many resemblences to ponzi schemes the same way - you build pyramids

    52. Re:Surely not? by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Investment is different from speculation which is different from mere gambling.

      The way investment and speculation have been handled over the last decade or so, it's really hard to see how it's different from mere gambling -- or, as the GP said, one big legalized ponzi scheme.

      Back in the middle of the .COM era, if you had a web-site and a company name, your stock could trade at a value which would be 100 years income. Certainly Enron and lots of other examples tell us that the people who we're supposed to trust are doing not much more than kiting cheques on a grand scale.

      The "Slashdot School of Finance" is a bunch of people who have been around long enough (and burned enough in some cases) to have a very cynical view that it really is a fairly shaky foundation with a lot of mumbo-jumbo even the so-called experts can't navigate. Many of us have had options, and been in the markets -- quite a few of us are probably fairly savvy about investments.

      Things which are supposed to be investments are totally devalued because their value became tied up in all of those stupid asset-backed paper commodities or whatever they were. Modern "investment" strategy seems to be buy a high flyer, expect it to go up 15% year over year, and sell it before the price drops out so some other poor schlep is stuck with it when it becomes worthless -- which, is what the stock market has always been.

      Other than sneering, and not actually making any points or stating any facts, why don't you tell us how the statement

      The real problem is that stocks are a legalized ponzi sceheme and should be done away with entirely, it's basically a ponzi scheme through abstraction using machiens so you don't see the other people trying to fuck one another over for personal gain.

      is inaccurate, and in what ways the markets are truly valid ways of doing business in which someone isn't trying to fuck over everyone else to get a piece of the pie? Because, quite frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the GP -- it's hard not to look at the state of the stock market and think it's not a big legalized Ponzi scheme.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    53. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, thanks for your comment. You know, I really feel a lot better now knowing there's someone else who misses the "good old days" too. Hey, by the way, would you happen to know anyone who would trade salt or yeast for squirrel pelts? I need a couple of loaves of bread, and I know this guy who will trade wool for squirrel pelts. I've got a friend of a friend who will trade corn for wool. Then I heard a rumor that there's a guy a few counties over who will trade the corn for wheat. Then I'm basically set. Well, except I still need salt, yeast, firewood, oh yeah, and a good oven might help. But it shouldn't be hard getting that stuff, right? Everyone loves squirrel pelts and fresh squirrel meat.

      BTW, just because YOU don't have the first clue about economics and finance doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of others who do. I'm not going to try to sit here and defend the tons of stupid things that have been going on for the past 20 or 30 years, but lately it's been fashionable for people who know nothing about economics to spout off this bullshit about how we would be so much better without big banks and the stock market. Fact #1: Whenever someone's harkening back to the good old days it's never as good as they imagine. That's because of selective memory. It's all a bunch reactionary ranting because people's greed got the best of them and now they're hurt and afraid. Fear and greed.

      I will say this, much of the problem stems from the fact that the economic landscape is formed by legislators who are usually lawyers, not economists, and therefore have little understanding of the financial implications of the laws they're passing. The fact that all kinds of strange economic incentives and disincentives result from bad legislation really has nothing to do with banks, stock markets, etc. When we elect unqualified legislators to office, or when we elect legislators for their social policies rather than their fiscal policies, we get what we deserve - a failed economy.

    54. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Recently close to 40% of NYSE volume was GS which gives them enormous power to manipulate prices."

      You are aware that GS has a large market making operation, right? Therefore, in some markets they may be on one side or the other of nearly every single trade. Many option exchanges allow specialist units to take the other side of 40% of market volume as an incentive to be the specialist. What's more, how many high net worth, institutional, and professional customers trade and clear through Goldman? Plenty.

      Yes, Goldman has a ton of clout due to the positions of their alumni and they work that network extensively. But I think just don't think you understand the trading aspect very well.

    55. Re:Surely not? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I understand it, and their recent bonuses (after being bailed out by the government to avoid bankruptcy only a few months ago) to know that they should be split up/shut down and replaced with smaller firms with less power. Evidence is that they are already taking on increased levels of risk again-- why not-- they know the rest of us suckers will cover their losses. Heads they win, tails we lose.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    56. Re:Surely not? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      No, the software for processing external orders has little value, as it's just buy X at or below Y, sell Q for R or above and so on.

      This software would only have real value if it did automated buying/selling of securities.

      This is like if you go to a casino to play poker, with a house dealer, and the house also sits in and gets to see one of your two hole cards. You've still got a chance to win, but it's not as easy as people think it 'should' be.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    57. Re:Surely not? by HungryHobo · · Score: 2, Informative

      One hole.
      If the company pays dividends to the shareholders of say 5 or 10 percent and you simply buy and do no more you'll eventually make back your investment over 10-20 years.
      Now if you want to make money short term the thing to do is of course to go for the quick profit but shares don't have to be a hole to throw money into.

    58. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It all depends on if [some corporate entity] has any clue about system security.

      What a delightfully amusing supposition!

    59. Re:Surely not? by dave562 · · Score: 1

      What does Madoff have to do with Goldman Sachs or the rest of the industry? His lack of ethics didn't have much of anything to do with trading on the stock market. He ran a huge Ponzi scheme and completely falsified the results of his "investment strategy". Goldman Sachs actually has an investment strategy, and they invest money in real securities. Madoff did nothing of the sort.

    60. Re:Surely not? by SirCowMan · · Score: 1

      Wish I had some mod points, as this is what I gathered from the article: it's arbitrage trading code, where speed is the beginning, ending, and be-all. I don't see any problem therein ether, as both ends receive market value, it's how we imagine trading across markets to work; just done really quickly.

      --
      !Equality through palindromes semordnilap hguorht ytilauqE!
    61. Re:Surely not? by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      But you're missing the point of downside risk, dividends are likely not going to be more then your investment and you're totally eliminated the amount of risk that you're exposing yourself to when *other people sell* the fact that when other people sell and you lose money if it never reaches that high again is proof positive that my original observations are correct.

      I know, I have investments I know what dividends are and I know almost all companies don't pay enough in dividends that would ever make up the average persons investment they made in them, dividends become irrelevant if you can't get your original amount back without a loss.

    62. Re:Surely not? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What does Madoff have to do with Goldman Sachs or the rest of the industry?

      He was IN the industry. From Wikipedia: "Madoff founded the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC in 1960, and was its chairman until his arrest on December 11, 2008.[8]

      "Madoff was active in the National Association of Securities Dealers (NASD), a self-regulatory securities industry organization and has served as the Chairman of the Board of Directors and on the Board of Governors of the NASD.[9]"

      His lack of ethics didn't have much of anything to do with trading on the stock market.

      "The Madoff family has long-standing, high-level ties to the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association (SIFMA), the primary securities industry organization. Bernard Madoff sat on the Board of Directors of the Securities Industry Association, which merged with the Bond Market Association in 2006 to form SIFMA."

      "Occupation (former) stock broker, financial adviser, (former) chairman of NASDAQ"

      I'd say being the chairman of NASDAQ pretty much DOES has to do with the stock market. What makes you think any of his associates are any more ethical than him? Birds of a feather. The difference between him and the rest of those jackals is he got caught.

    63. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That article is complete shit. The author's most famous article to date is 52 reasons why the upcoming death of the pope is hilarious.

    64. Re:Surely not? by HiThere · · Score: 0

      For certain definitions of fair.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    65. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent! If knowing the source code for _financial trading mechanisms_ allows for gaming the system, then it's a very good thing that the code was exposed. If anything, I'd expect banking code to resist outside intrusion.

      This isn't even an issue of fraud or gaming the system. IF you know Goldman's current holdings, and the market conditions, you know how they will react to fluctuations. For example, you could predict ahead of time when certain thresholds are met that triggers their software to buy or sell a stock in large quantities.

      You probably couldn't do a whole lot of illegal stuff with it, but it would allow you, in the right situtation, to leverage your own investments based on what they will do in the future.

      It's almost like being able to predict the future... in the right scenario. For example, if you see a trend and know that their software is going to dump a huge pile of company X's stock, you could place a bet against that companies stock dropping, with a very high chance of being correct. There are plenty of other scenarios, but to sum it up, it's like being able to read the mind of the GS's own stock brokers in a short-term scenario. The poker analogies are very close to how you could take advantage of such a system. Luck still rules the day, but a little inside knowledge tells you when it's a good idea to take the risk, or just get out while the getting is good.

      The biggest threat to GS from this, is not small traders, but competitors who can use the knowledge in some cases to out-trade GS.

    66. Re:Surely not? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I don't mean to imply any parties "are evil", I mean third parties that might wish to use the info to further evil intentions, or commit evil acts harmful to the rightful owner of the info.

      I should have said: to protect against third parties knowing the trading system's flaws and using them to further evil objectives, or to exploit flaws to harm Goldman.

      (e.g. the company that paid for the technology to be developed, or the company whose equipment the passwords belong to)

      For the most part, individuals and corporations aren't ever "evil" or "good"; evilness or goodness is a characteristic of a specific behavior, action, or pattern of activity.

      Someone who performs many good acts, has a pattern of good behavior, can still be responsible for some evil activity, and vice-versa, someone who conducts a lot of evil activity, or evil behavior, can still also partake in good activity.

      It would be a highly unusual exception to the rule that an entity or person only does evil (or good) things.

      It's even hard to define what activities are evil or good acts. Usually it comes down to intent: if malice is intended, then it's usually evil.

      Goldman Sachs would probably consider a saboteur using inside info about their trading system to beat them, or to influence their trades for their own profit, to be partaking in evil behavior.

    67. Re:Surely not? by lennier · · Score: 1

      "All of which means you can make more money without being detected - and you haven't attacked the software itself, you haven't changed how the code works, you have stayed within the boundaries that the software creates. All because you knew *precisely* how the code works."

      Maybe I'm just naive... but wasn't having *precisely specified rules* for financial transactions, published and known by all players, once upon a time considered the bedrock of what finance and banking were all about? And why capitalism was the most perfect economic system known to mankind?

      Yeah, I know, it's never actually been like that, that was probably way back before the Dutch invented the stock market or the Egyptians started building pyramids or the first hunter-gatherers traded some dodgy furs for some suspicious berries... but still.

      Sorry, I don't have much sympathy when the guys playing liars' poker have their hands shown to the world. Something as critical as banking shouldn't be the preserve of proprietary commercial secrecy and deception. It should be a publically operated service, open and transparent and trustworthy and boring and above all manipulation, and that goes for all critical planetary infrastructure.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    68. Re:Surely not? by lennier · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "If someone creates a model that predicts where the oil futures will go based on past performance in similar circumstances, you think that person should be required by law to reveal his model?"

      Yes.

      "Wouldn't that make it nearly impossible to make money in the stock market"

      Yes. That would mean the stock market would be an *efficient market* and would do the job it's supposed to do: direct investment to sources of real value (long-term, planet-wide improvement in social conditions) rather than short-term Prisoner's Dilemma-style scams and ripoffs.

      "and the only buying and selling would be people looking to begin investing in blue chips for the long haul"

      YES. This would redirect the attention of the economy to solving the vitally important long-term problems of the world.

      "thus reducing investment in companies"

      No, only reducing investment in short-term rip-offs.

      "thus reducing R&D, thus reducing innovation?"

      No, it would expose the true sources of R&D investment, which remain what they've always actually been: groups like DARPA with funds and a long-term vision and commitment.

      If your long-term R&D funding model is driven solely by expectation of short-term returns and REQUIRES obfuscation and deception between investors seeking self-interest rather than honest and transparent public dissemination of scientific knowledge, your society is already screwed no matter how you try to cut the cake.

      Long-term, planetary scale R&D requires long-term, planetary scale wisdom and cooperation. There's no way around this. You can't boost the system by making individuals fight each other like starving rats in a fog of ignorance and think somehow that will generate good vibes of positivity and constructive progress. It won't.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    69. Re:Surely not? by demachina · · Score: 1

      I'll agree its kind of a fluff piece. What did you expect out of Rolling Stone :) A problem is I don't think you will get anyone in the financial press who will do a hatchet job on Goldman because they are too powerful and well connected. I saw one of the frontline pieces and it wasn't really much better. It just recounted pretty much the same sequence of events you would have heard on CNBC during the melt down. I'll watch the other, thanks for the pointer.

      If you were looking for "specific evidence" I doubt you will find any unless there is a criminal investigation like Enron where their internal emails are acquired and I doubt A) anyone will touch them with an investifation, they are too powerful or B) they are dumb enough to keep any juicy emails. Only other way the truth will come out about what Goldman is doing is if a powerful insider rats them out and that is also unlikely because insiders make a lot of money there and would risk it all if they ratted out Goldman. It would be entertaining to analyze their trading software to see if it offers clues in to any potential manipulation of commodities markets in particular.

      The whole problem with the shenanigans at Goldman Sachs and Citigroup is they have used their alumni in the White House and lobbyist control of Congress to completely eliminate transparency or accountability so no one really knows what they are doing, and we may never. They can't keep manipulating markets and creating bubbles to their benefit if there is transparency in the financial system, especially in commodities trading and credit default swaps.

      One interesting part in the Rolling Stone piece I hadn't heard were the "secret" letters Goldman's commodity trader J Aron and a dozen others had gotten exempting them from the depression era regulations on speculating in commodities. It used to be producers of commodities were the only ones exempt from speculation rules because they actually produced the commodities. Someone how a bunch of pure speculators like Goldman and Citigroup's commodity traders were also exempted. Anyone have good pointers to more details on that?

      I wish I remember where I saw it today but there was a piece on the NY Times or some place similar about the volatility in oil prices. The volatility we've had the last couple of years is unprecedented, it is completely decoupled from fundamentals and is probably entirely due to speculators either like Goldman and Citi commodity traders or day traders using ETF's in commodities. It is becoming clear if the speculation doesn't stop it will break big oil consumers like airlines. Airlines simply can't survive if their fuel prices continue to swing wildly. The only other culprit I've heard lately is maybe China went on a commodity buying binge in first half of 2009 as a way to dump the dollars they have too many of, which is why commodities have been rallying this time around.

      The problem is some big companies with a stranglehold on our government have managed to constantly emasculate regulation and prevent all transparency, especially in commodity trading and credit default swaps. It is basically impossible right now for anyone to know what kind of BS Goldman and friends are pulling to manipulate markets to their benefit and to the devastation of everyone else. You simply can't let commodities speculation continue if you want a healthy economy. Speculators provide a little liquidity but otherwise they are pure vampires on essential commodities. All they do is drive up the price and they play no constructive role anywhere in the process. Their sole goal is buy low and sell high and they don't care if they drive gas to $4 a gallon for no reason, or cause starvation and food riots in the third world because the drive up wheat, corn and rice prices for no reason. All commodity speculators do is either take advantage of shortage, or even worse create shortages where none would exist to drive up prices so they can profit for no reason.

      Goldman and friends have fought

      --
      @de_machina
    70. Re:Surely not? by pyite · · Score: 1

      A lot of money was funneled to GS by Paulsen (a GS alumni) and some of their major competitors were crippled.

      You're an idiot and I can't let this stand without rebuttal. If you're referring to AIG bailout money going to GS, then you're complaining about GS getting paid for contracts that AIG knowingly and willfully entered into. Had AIG failed to live up to their end of the bargain, credit default swaps on AIG itself would have been triggered and even MORE companies would have had to pay for AIG's mistakes.

      Goldman should be praised for properly hedging all their positions and this is what any shareholder of the firm would expect.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    71. Re:Surely not? by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Here's the main problem. Most of the people working in economics don't have a clue how the economy actually functions. They didn't predict this crisis, and they are still saying we are going to recover soon when the data really doesn't support that point of view. I've been reading Steeve Keen's blog for a couple of years. He did see this coming, and his predictions of just how bad this will turn out have been holding so far.

      I would really like things to go back to how they were in the 30's to 50's in terms of legislation. Back then everyone remembered the Great Depression, and people had a much better understanding of the risks of widespread leverage. But since that generation died out we've been convincing ourselves we know better and have repealed all the laws that held the financial / banking system in check.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    72. Re:Surely not? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      One reason the stock market isn't a Ponzi scheme is that sometimes companies really do use the money invested in them to set up factories which make stuff. Then when that stuff is sold, the investors get a share of the profits. Difficult to believe, I know.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    73. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. That would mean the stock market would be an *efficient market* and would do the job it's supposed to do: direct investment to sources of real value (long-term, planet-wide improvement in social conditions)

      So if everyone had this software, it would enable people to predict the future and it would change human nature?

    74. Re:Surely not? by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "One reason the stock market isn't a Ponzi scheme is that sometimes companies really do use the money invested in them to set up factories which make stuff. Then when that stuff is sold, the investors get a share of the profits. Difficult to believe, I know."

      Except this ignores the flagrant evidence to the contrary of the largest rally in stock market history from this past Jan to around now that I participated in the dead-bank sector, all the financials rallied over %100 off their lows in march off of nothing more then speculation there certainly were no profits here or nothing produced, thereby cementing my point entirely.

      Yes by and large the stock market is a legalize ponzi scheme under the euphamism of investment, since the way and manner in which the "profits are shared" and the way shares are bought and sold are proof positive of it's ponzi like nature, if one bought shares in a company at a fixed price which you couldn't then resell to other buyers, except back to the company like the current model that paid dividends you'd have a point.

    75. Re:Surely not? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      Then try looking for shares in companies with a record of paying decent dividends and remaining fairly stable in the long term.
      Or do such shares not exist?

    76. Re:Surely not? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Is this thread now speculating that Aleynikov may have installed a back door into GS production servers via the software he maintained that allowed someone outside of GS to manipulate the trade processing? Is this why GS trades for the last couple of weeks were removed from the NYSE programmed trading reports?

      There seems to be a lot more going on here than a simple white-collar burglary.

    77. Re:Surely not? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Without knowing the values of whatever tables they have set up for the day/hour/minute your trades could get smacked pretty hard before figuring it out.

      wanna bet that part of that 32MB is the config files from the production environment?

    78. Re:Surely not? by MoriaOrc · · Score: 1

      error C4716: 'main' : must return a value

      Also, you could drop a few lines by moving that pay_bonus() call out of the if statements (since it really isn't conditional on anything anyway).

    79. Re:Surely not? by True+Grit · · Score: 1

      would you happen to know anyone who would trade salt or yeast for squirrel pelts?

      Nice rant you got there AC, there's just one problem: the GP wasn't bitching about paper money, he's complaining about the insanity that is the modern stock & bond markets.

      Fact #1: Whenever someone's harkening back to the good old days it's never as good as they imagine.

      Now thats true enough.

      the economic landscape is formed by legislators who are usually lawyers

      No, the problem is that legislators are usually available for purchase to the highest bidder. Unfortunately, the "winners" from the crazy roulette wheel of the stock/bond markets are always the ones who can bid the highest.

    80. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So which is it? Are you asserting that the equity markets are rigged because "legislators are ... available for purchase", or are you asserting that the equity markets are random gambling like a "crazy roulette wheel"? Because I tend to see the two as mutually exclusive. What's more, I can't think of anyone who would bribe a legislator to rig the market to be random. That seems kind of senseless. Your conflicted assertions seem to indicate that you don't have a coherent explanation for what's going on economically. You're simply simply jumping on the bandwagon of blaming everything that is related to big finance in a scattershot kind of way.

      Either way, the markets are not directly controlled by either the legislative or executive branches. If they were, the Republicans never would have allowed the market to go down before the election and/or the Democrats would be effortlessly re-inflating the markets now that they're in control. No, at best/worst what happens is that legislators pass bad laws with incentives that favor narrow special interests creating the bizarre economic landscape I mentioned before. Is it screwed up? Of course it is! Anyone who looks at just our tax code knows that. But there's nothing inherently evil about the equity or fixed income markets. I shudder to use the word "game" because it's always misinterpreted, but for the most part market participants play the game according to the rules as they are, not some alternate idealized reality. If the market were so tilted against the average investor why has the average investor kept trying to play the game? Again, it all goes back to greed, fear and greed.

      With regard to the idea that legislators are "available for purchase", I would respond, of course they are, everybody knows that, and for the most part, that's the way we want it. It is universally known that people contribute money to the election campaigns and vote for the politicians that they believe will do the most for them. To put it more crassly, we buy and vote for the politician that will give us what WE want. Consider the alternative, a bought and paid for politician who decides he's going to go his own way. Well, as the saying goes, "all politics is local", and any elected representative who ignores his electorate certainly does so at his own peril.

      But I think the idea you're really trying to sell is the conspiracy theory that the big corporations have bought out the politicians and the poor average joe can't get a fair shake anymore. And you'll probably get a lot of buyers for that theory here on slashdot where conspiracy theories are a pastime. But I think the only true answer to your theory is a resounding maybe. If it's true, it is hard to know if we've passed the point of no return, or whether the people could reassert their control through a wholesale executive/legislative housecleaning. (Some might say that's what just happened.) Either way, this is the country we've collectively created with our vote, or lack thereof, for those who choose not to vote, and we're reaping what we've sown. That may sound harsh, but it's the reality we've left ourselves in, and trust me, I wish it were otherwise.

    81. Re:Surely not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fundamental contradiction - if the world does end up being an efficient market and all high-frequency traders go out of business, the markets are NO LONGER efficient. Markets are perpetually efficient-seeking, never efficient (or else no one would play a zero-sum game with information symmetry).

  3. Even More Interesting by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even more interesting is in the second article that notifies us that Goldman Sachs has been removed from the NYSE 15 Most Active Members Firms Weekly Report. GS had been #1 the week before and now they're not even on it. These fifteen firms alone represent about 98% of all trades with the NYSE. So what happened?

    The author mentions some things but gives no clear motivation for GS hiding their stats. I would speculate that if one of your developers copied your code and uploaded it to a server discretely, you could have that in your logs and not notice it for days or weeks. But if he then did something to your system to ensure his new employer's ownership of that code you wuold notice that pretty damn fast I imagine. Sergey Aleynikov sounds like a brilliant coder but maybe he's not so smart on legal issues, is it possible he completely hobbled GS to please his new employer? Are they keeping their transaction report hush hush so investers don't worry? Was Sergey Aleynikov thinking he could sell the code and the rights to the code? After all, if he could remove all copies of the code from GS how could they take people to court over the code without a local copy to prove ownership?

    If GS remained #1, they would have left themselves on the list. I presume that something else related to this has gone wrong with their operation, the news just hasn't broke yet.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      A brilliant coder...

      who's never heard of "history -c"???

    2. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its a longshot, but maybe it has something to do with this:

      http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3159732&pagenumber=1

    3. Re:Even More Interesting by dr.newton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems unlikely to me that any single person, or even small group of people, would have the capability to remove all copies of this code, binary and source, from the company's information infrastructure.

      Is it possible that they have suspended use of this code because they fear that someone analyzing it could profit from the trades it would have made?

      --
      Just another proletarian malcontent.
    4. Re:Even More Interesting by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      After all, if he could remove all copies of the code from GS how could they take people to court over the code without a local copy to prove ownership?

      I don't see how a developer could possibly do that. They must have backups all over the place. Certainly the BOFH could corrupt the backups, but Aleynikov isn't the BOFH.

    5. Re:Even More Interesting by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems unlikely to me that any single person, or even small group of people, would have the capability to remove all copies of this code, binary and source, from the company's information infrastructure.

      Ah, the double edged sword of secrecy. Keep the location of your secrets solitary so that you don't have to keep track of multiple copies. With every new location it is stored, the odds of corporate espionage double. Had they ascribed to keep it in one place, this would be all too possible. And let's face it, if you're shelling out $400k to one or two developers, you do checks on them and make sure they can handle the keys to the palace.

      Is it possible that they have suspended use of this code because they fear that someone analyzing it could profit from the trades it would have made?

      I had not thought of this, although I believe these transactions would be done on secure networks with insane encryption. Again, if you're shelling out $400k to a developer, you're probably laying fiber straight to the NYSE's servers from yours or at least including a level of encryption that is so high it would take the NSA days to decrypt it -- rendering the data worthless as it's public by then.

      Still if they don't understand how it works, I could see them doing that. I could not, however, see them sacrificing a week's worth of trading for these fears without first researching them. Do you know how much money and customers that would cost them?

      --
      My work here is dung.
    6. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, oh... their bollinger bands (or something nearly identical in principle [like rolling candles?]) broke!

      It is not unheard of these algorithms [all of them!] to simply stop working one day---like majority of the naive ones did in ~2002 or so.

      Also, ``most active trader'' list means very little these days, as only ~20-30% of the total volume goes through nyse.

    7. Re:Even More Interesting by Ciaran+Power · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A brilliant coder...

      who's never heard of "history -c"???

      TFS says that his history file was backed up while he was Hacking The Gibson. He might have cleared his .history afterwards but presumably didn't know about/didn't have access to/didn't bother clearing the backup. TFA doesn't mention anything about his history btw, but slashdot wouldn't lie to me.

    8. Re:Even More Interesting by ammorais · · Score: 0

      ... the system backed up...

      And backups to external servers. Did you ever heard about?

    9. Re:Even More Interesting by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      including a level of encryption that is so high it would take the NSA days to decrypt it

      Keep in mind that encryption, right now, can be strong enough to take millions of years to decrypt.

    10. Re:Even More Interesting by xaxa · · Score: 2, Informative

      unset HISTFILE and he (might) have been OK.

    11. Re:Even More Interesting by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Seems more likely he was caught by auditing through the audit daemon in Red Hat Enterprise Linux. It records both high level "actions" taken on the machine, and (in some cases) commands typed at the shell. Unless you have root (in some cases, even if you have root), it's hard to erase those logs.

      Rich.

    12. Re:Even More Interesting by eldavojohn · · Score: 2, Informative

      including a level of encryption that is so high it would take the NSA days to decrypt it

      Keep in mind that encryption, right now, can be strong enough to take millions of years to decrypt.

      You, sir, are correct. Although, I must inquire that if you're making several thousand transactions a week and you're writing software to whereby the transaction frequency matters to you (probably down to the millisecond) do you have the time to waste in encrypting/decrypting this? I would imagine that while it would take millions of years to decrypt it would also take several seconds to encrypt. That's time they don't have.

      Also, if you are doing transaction with foreign institutions or exchanges then you may incur the wrath of exporting a weapon and putting national security at risk by deploying your software overseas. I know that sounds stupid for me to say. But you see, ever since Phil Zimmerman's arrest and subsequent release (and even more subsequent celebration), people have been wary of crossing that line.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    13. Re:Even More Interesting by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had not thought of this, although I believe these transactions would be done on secure networks with insane encryption.

      Knowing the algorithms that Goldman Sachs uses to do realtime trades could possibly give you insider information you wouldn't have otherwise had. When doing realtime transactions, if you know the ORDER Goldman Sachs will use to do the transactions, for instance, you could buy certain stocks a minute or two before Goldman Sachs does...since the act of GS (or anyone) buying a stock will increase its trading price some, and you've just automatically made money and hurt GS at the same time.

      This type of insider trading information will likely result in criminal prosecution by the SEC, however, so don't try this at home, kiddies.

    14. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is possible that the bank which aided the defrauding of the Mirror pensioners for million pound bonuses while the pathetic UK government stood by with its thumb up its arse might suffer some serious financial problems as a result of Aleynikov. Couldn't happen to a more deserving crowd.

      Goldman Sachs... cockney rhyming slang for bunch of c**ts... or at least it should be.

    15. Re:Even More Interesting by ground.zero.612 · · Score: 1

      Citation needed.

      I'm willing to put myself in cryostorage for millions of years to test this theory!

      --
      "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
    16. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      unset HISTFILE and he (might) have been OK.

      Not likely... since most financial institutions capture not only the commands, but the output to STDOUT/STDERR, and that is logged outside, upstream of the physical machine, using tools like PowerBroker, Sudoscript, and others.

      I know, because I work for $LARGE_BANK, and we use it there. You can't just symlink ~/.bash_history to /dev/null, or unset HISTSIZE or any of that.. even the !shell trick out of vim doesn't help, because everything you type and everything it outputs, is logged where you can't wipe it out.

    17. Re:Even More Interesting by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 2, Interesting

      [...]since most financial institutions [...]

      I know, because I work for $LARGE_BANK, and we use it there. [...]

      That's a hell of an extrapolation. It could only be correct if there are less than 2.0 possible $LARGE_BANK values...

    18. Re:Even More Interesting by Sentax · · Score: 0

      The real question is how could GS let one single developer have complete access to the whole source code at the same time? It's like Microsoft giving the person that is improving the calculator for the next version of Windows complete access to kernel code, etc.

      I'm not positive on the position that Sergey was in, but if he is very low level developer of the code for GS, then they should of done more background checks, personality checks, whatever you can think of checks to ensure that he's a trustworthy employee to have complete access.

    19. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When doing realtime transactions, if you know the ORDER Goldman Sachs will use to do the transactions, for instance, you could buy certain stocks a minute or two before Goldman Sachs does.

      It would not be nearly that simple. Realtime here means microseconds, not minutes. People pay a lot of money to have their server co-located at the exchange to reduce microseconds. You could have perfect information about GS's algorithms for high frequency trading and there's no way you could use it to "beat them to the punch" unless you can match them in hardware, networks and server location.

    20. Re:Even More Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooh, the SEC! I'm shaking in my boots.

    21. Re:Even More Interesting by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Yes, I realize that we are talking microseconds. A 'minute or two' was intended to be a generic unit of time like 'a few jiffies', but didn't quite come off that way.

      Maybe you can't match them in hardware, networks and server location, but I'm willing to bet someone can and that that someone is willing to pay a lot of information for those algorithms.

      That's what matters.

    22. Re:Even More Interesting by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      "..is it possible he completely hobbled GS to please his new employer?

      The problem with making suggestions, without the proper background information, renders said suggestions nonsensical! GS can now be fully exposed with the mass speculation they are guilty of when there exists duplicate trading platform code out there - period - end of story!

    23. Re:Even More Interesting by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Black Hat Hacker lesson of the day;

      If you're going to steal source code you need to find a deniable way of copying the code to a machine you own before you send it outside the company.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    24. Re:Even More Interesting by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      More likely you trade slightly above and below the current price to trick GS into trades that manipulate the price further in ways that you can profit from.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    25. Re:Even More Interesting by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 1

      Not really. Large banks are subject to lots of regulation and tend to be paranoid about security (I know because I also used to work at a $LARGE_BANK).

      Assuming similar behaviors among multiple actors within a common environment -- within a common industry -- is not unreasonable. Is it a logically-certain assumption? No; banks *could* behave differently. But are the behaviors *probably* similar? Yes (particularly in banking), and therefore it's reasonable.

  4. nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's funny... I normally find myself loathing companies like Goldman Sachs for hyper-selfish capitalism, finding ways to get rich at taxpayer expense, etc.

    But then, when I see industrial espionage by Russians, Chinese, Israelis, etc. against those very same corporations, a sense of nationalist anger makes me forget my anti-corporatist anger. Somehow I completely fail to have a sense of schadenfreude for the corporations that I normally hate, and I don't know why.

    Being human is strange.

    1. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That, my friend, is what having your self interest 0wn3d by your primate instincts feels like.

      Don't worry, multinationals have no such weaknesses, and won't bat an eye when you are on the hook.

    2. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      Unless TFA (didn't read) says Aleynikov was backed by a government, my guess is he was self-employed or being paid by a mafia organization. Look, it can be a Russian mafia if you want. Other than that, his surname isn't much evidence.

    3. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless TFA (didn't read) says Aleynikov was backed by a government, my guess is he was self-employed or being paid by a mafia organization.

      Some would argue that the current government of Russia is a Mafia organization.

    4. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by noidentity · · Score: 1

      It's funny... I normally find myself loathing companies like Goldman Sachs for hyper-selfish capitalism, finding ways to get rich at taxpayer expense, etc.

      That's not due to capitalism, it's due to statism (having a government that goes way beyond its mandate). You can't fault companies for taking advantage of government perks, because if they don't, they can't compete in the marketplace. Again, the solution isn't more government regulation (which also has loophoes), but less (none!).

    5. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Some would argue that the current government of Russia is a Mafia organization.

      "In Soviet Russia, government is the Mafia."

      Poor Yakov. How could he have known he'd be the most bang-on political pundit of the next century?

    6. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by CrazyDuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I damn sure can fault them when they are the architects of said perks. Last I checked, Goldman Sachs "donates" quite heavily in DC.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
    7. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Gilmoure · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That us-and-them geographical, language or ethnicity identification is pretty weird. Try to cultivate the "scared bunny" / "everyone's out to get me" attitude and you won't feel sorry when a local coyote or mountain lion gets run over by a foreign truck.

      The whole us/them left/right axis is just part of the circuses to distract the crowd. If you really want to see the us/them divide, it's the upper crust Kleptocrats against everyone else. We're all just cattle and cat food to them. The only way they can make the tens of thousands of dollars a minute they do is by harnessing the earning power of lots of ants and skimming off a bit of everyone else's productive power.

      After WWII, the traditional pyramid shape of society (large number or poor, smaller number of middle class and very small number of upper class) changed towards more of a diamond shape. Ever since then, a lot of folks have been trying to revert that, driving down real wage gains while increasing productivity. All that benefit of efficiency has to go somewhere and it's not going down to the poor and it's not showing up in the paychecks of the works so it must be flowing up towards the top.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    8. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by maxume · · Score: 1

      I blame the people for electing politicians that are essentially open for sale.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by enrevanche · · Score: 1

      The government only gives these companies "perks" because these companies have undue influence in government (especially in Washington DC)

      We see what the unregulated financial industry has brought.

      Before regulation, the economy when through extreme cycles of boom-bust (i.e. prosperity and deep recessions/depressions). The depth of our current recession is due to the extreme deregulation that has occurred from the Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bushette legacy. (Although Clinton did not do that badly with economy, he signed in a lot of financial deregulation.)

      Regulation is necessary because industry and the "market" will not sufficiently regulate itself concerning things that are important to society. These include pollution, safe products, privacy and competition.

    10. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by demachina · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good point but Goldman Sachs deserves to be loathed. They are behind some of the most malevolent behavior that has damaged our economy while they profit dating back to the Great Depression. They were probably a leading creator of the housing bubble and crash which has wiped out trillions of dollars of average peoples wealth. They are also leading commodity manipulators, they have a letter from the U.S. government exempting from commodity laws to prevent speculation. They may be partially responsible for the oil price spike above $140, and last years spike in food prices that caused food riots and starvation in the third world.

      You do have to give them credit that they manage to cause catastrophic collapses when the bubbles they help create bursts, and still manage to walk away unscathed. During the house bubble they created mortgage backed securities they knew were garbage and then suckered AIG in to writing credit default swaps on them so they won when they sold the crap and then won again when it went to hell. At least ten billion dollars of your tax dollars went in one door at AIG and out the back door in to Goldman Sachs pocket as reward for creating garbage mortgages.

      Rolling Stone has a good expose on them though the bootleg version has been pulled offline due to "copyright infringement". Its called "The Great American Bubble Machine".

      --
      @de_machina
    11. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by macbeth66 · · Score: 1

      This is perfectly normal and has happened over and over again in history. Goldman Sachs is like that family member you can't stand to see, hear or know anything about. However, if someone outside of the family comes between you, you close ranks and defend against the invaders.

    12. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So basically you argue that:

      • Citizens have to obey ethic rules
      • Governments have to obey ethic rules
      • Legislators have to obey ethic rules
      • companies can do anything they like

      Again, the solution isn't more government regulation (which also has loophoes), but less (none!).

      Look at what happened to failed states like Somalia and Sudan. Warlords. Pirates. Al-Qaeda.

    13. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warlords. Pirates. Al-Qaeda.

      3-way ultimate death-match!

    14. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Deanalator · · Score: 1

      Nationalism is not patriotism, it's a superset of racism.

    15. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      One of the more intelligent posts on slashdot, can't believe you didn't get modded insightful yet.

    16. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      funny because most of these industrial secrets are made by ethnic Russians, Chinese and Israelis...

    17. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Thanks, but am just regurgitating David Brin with a bit of Bob Lassiter (80's-90's talk radio guy: They don't care what you believe, as long as you blame your neighbors for how things are. They don't like you, they don't want to hang out with you. They're too rich!). Wish I had time to dig out Brin essay on the diamond shaped society of the west.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    18. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by jafac · · Score: 1

      GS may be an "American" company, but they have no loyalty to the US. They do all they can to lobby to avoid paying taxes to support the infrastructure that enables their business. There is nothing patriotic about GS, and loyalty or even sympathy to these opportunistic parasites is misplaced. Not long after they have finished looting the richest economy in the world, rest assured, they will relocate their corporate offices to greener pastures. The super-rich do not give a crap what country their estate is located in, nor do they give a crap about the people in that country. They have their own private armies, and own the officials anyway. Their peers are other super-rich people, and to them, economics, war, and politics is little more than cheap entertainment for their amusement.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    19. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by CrazyDuke · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, blaming the people for electing shitty politicians is a lot like blaming the dog for giving you a backyard full of shit.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
    20. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russians, Chinese, Israelis, etc. -- these folks are Americans. Immigrants who have taken the tough technical work that most 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Americans don't want to do.

    21. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by jawahar · · Score: 1

      Patriotism is Oxymoron in Globalization.

    22. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has any of you ever thought that there is a little possibility that the man never stole anything ?
      That instead GS just want to keep him from reproducing whatever he has in its head ?
      Wouldn't be nice in that case to just arrest a Russian just before independence day ?

      Just asking ;-)

    23. Re:nationalism vs. anti-corporatism by True+Grit · · Score: 1

      I blame the people for electing politicians that are essentially open for sale.

      Given a high enough concentration of wealth at the top, an increasingly expensive political process, and a tame corporate media that would otherwise be the only effective watchdog against shenanigans, all politicians are now open for sale.

      If the choice is only between 'bad' and 'worse', one shouldn't expect 'good' to be the result.

  5. Colour me surprised by Antidamage · · Score: 5, Funny

    Pure evil partnered with Linux?

    I'm pretty sure that can't happen. I'm going to pray to Linus for guidance.

    1. Re:Colour me surprised by neomunk · · Score: 5, Funny

      Linux isn't GOOD by nature. It's not BAD either.

      It's like The Force, you see. All around us, binding our processes behind the scenes in ways it takes an enlightened eye to perceive. There is always Linux prodding along the information swirls and eddies that make up our modern lives, unconcerned with the nature or usage of said information.

      Windows is like The Force too, except I've never heard a Windows acolyte preach any path other than the quicker, easier, more seductive one...

    2. Re:Colour me surprised by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's like The Force, you see. All around us, binding our processes behind the scenes in ways it takes an enlightened eye to perceive.

      Wait, so does that mean that in 20 years, you're going to tell us that Linux is actually made by invisible creatures that can only be detected with special equipment?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    3. Re:Colour me surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anger leads to control, control leads to alt, alt leads to delete...

    4. Re:Colour me surprised by grub · · Score: 1


      Wait, so does that mean that in 20 years, you're going to tell us that Linux is actually made by invisible creatures that can only be detected with special equipment?

      The curator at the Creationist museum already has people working on their Linux exhibit.

      .

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    5. Re:Colour me surprised by Splab · · Score: 1

      Well you do need a flashlight when entering the Linux kernel developers lair, so in the dark they are kinda invisible.

    6. Re:Colour me surprised by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      These invisible creatures are "nerds," and the special equiment used is not actually so sophisticated. All one has to do is walk into a room where one suspects these nerds are habitating and announce PICARD WAS A BETTER CAPTAIN THAN KIRK.

      The resulting chatter will prove their existence.

  6. Access controls anyone? by jonnyj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can't read the original article so I might be inferring something incorrect. But who on earth though it was a good idea to give internet access to someone with access to valuable source code? Whatever happened to role based access restrictions?

    1. Re:Access controls anyone? by u38cg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Possibly because in that position you need internet access to do your job.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    2. Re:Access controls anyone? by jonnyj · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't need internet access that is in any way shared with your development work. Completely sandboxed internet access in a totally locked down thin client session might be OK, but you certainly don't need to be able to upload data to remote servers. If you think you do, you need to go and read up about segregation of duties.

      But I don't expect you to agree. Your signature displays more about your attitude to the world than you perhaps realise.

    3. Re:Access controls anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Possibly because in that position you need internet access to do your job.

      That's where other industries with access to sensitive information ensure that it's reasonably difficult to remove such information from such a machine. I would think that the machine(s) with the source code would have absolutely no access to the outside internet, or to any machine that does. In fact, the machines used by programmers should be dumb terminals with no media of any kind, with binaries compiled and stored on a machine in a vault to which the programmers have no physical access. Binaries should be deployed to trading computers from another machine with no network connection to the source machine. Binaries should be copied from the source machine to the deploy machine in a locked vault by a manager via optical drive.

      This is just common sense when you're dealing with extremely valuable, sensitive information.

    4. Re:Access controls anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This code really isn't that valuable. It appears to be algorithmic trading code- Algorithmic Trading is essentially a fancy term for automated trading. Back in ye olde days, a person that wants to trade a very large number of shares, typically a pension fund or something similar, would call up a broker or a few brokers and say "hey sell 1 million IBM shares, but don't do it all at once because then the entire market will be eaten up and the price will move too much on me." The broker would then go to a junior to mid level trader, and say "trade 5,000 of these shares every hour until the order is completely done." These days, you feed that into an algorithm, which will then over the period of a day or another time frame you specify, trade them in small drips and drabs so you never rock the boat too much. There are variations on how you do this, but most the common try to ensure that you trade your very large order at or below the average price the stock was at for that day.

      This is becoming an important piece of the world, but doing this at a basic level isn't that hard, and all it is doing is putting some lower level traders out of a job. When you also consider that this is just a piece of code and will not be able to be used without all of the infrastructure that the system uses (we are talking market data, reference data, historical data, direct market access, etc), at best you will be able to maybe find a flaw in their algorithm, and maybe find a way to exploit that flaw to chide the algorithm into trading at a price that is more beneficial to you and detrimental to the GS client that the algo is trading on behalf of. The very nature of algo's is that it is difficult to tell if you are trading against them.

      The biggest value this piece of code has is to GS's competitors- there is a lot of competition in the algo space, and a higher performing algo can save large funds millions of dollars over time. Competitors can review this code and see what factors GS is using in making its trading decisions and say something like "ooh they are taking into account the current direction of options prices for this same stock they are trying to trade, I never thought of that!" and then implement that idea. Even that claim is a bit questionable, because the broad strokes of how the algos work are told to clients so they understand what they are trusting. I am working with "mission critical" code to my company, but the value of the code itself is really overrated, you need the data, the connectivity, the servers and network hardware, the clients, and the staff to make it all hum everyday. I have NEVER seen code so critical that internet access needs to be cut off in the financial space. For what its worth, I used to work at GS, and they are huge on entitlements and making sure you only have access on a need basis. The real damage here is the embarassment to the companies involved.

    5. Re:Access controls anyone? by u38cg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can get away with that when you're the NSA, but I'd suggest that a typical quant is not going to play nicely with a policy like that. I would rather take the risk than scare away talent by running a shop on that basis. At the end of the day, the contents of that guy's head are worth more than the mere code he was working on.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    6. Re:Access controls anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... you'd rather your developers be 10x less productive (without quick google searches)? I say the key to security is to -trust- your employees. Yes, once in a while you get jerks stealing stuff, but, eh, paranoid security can cripple your company quicker than a crooked employee.

    7. Re:Access controls anyone? by jonnyj · · Score: 2, Interesting

      i'd respectfully suggest that the kind of quant that refuses to play nicely with security policies is the kind of quant that I'd rather not employ. And as I'm the kind of guy who gets to decide who works in parts of a financial services company, I'd also respectfully suggest that the kind of quant who refuses to play nicely with that kind of policy will find his career and earnings opportunities somewhat constrained compared with the kind of quant who's prepared to fit in with company policy.

    8. Re:Access controls anyone? by jonnyj · · Score: 1

      So... you'd rather your developers be 10x less productive (without quick google searches)? I say the key to security is to -trust- your employees. Yes, once in a while you get jerks stealing stuff, but, eh, paranoid security can cripple your company quicker than a crooked employee.

      Speaking as a senior manager in financial services, I would: in my industry, the cost of a developer's time is small compared with the value of the systems and data that he works on. But I'd be very suspicious about an employee who told me that he'd be 10x less productive because his internet access was sandboxed.

    9. Re:Access controls anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can get away with that when you're the NSA, but I'd suggest that a typical quant is not going to play nicely with a policy like that.

      Not sure why - it wouldn't keep him from doing anything except stealing the code, or making undisclosed copies on a local machine which becomes a code tracking nightmare anyway. You obviously give the guy another machine for general use that is attached to the internet. They can even be side-by-side - it just prevents copying from the source to the internet.

      At the end of the day, the contents of that guy's head are worth more than the mere code he was working on.

      Yes, but both are worth less than what *everybody* in the whole company are working on - and that's apparently what he had access to.

      Bottom line is that something like that - the logic behind the business of a massively multi-billion dollar corporation - is worth a ton. Thus, it has to be controlled. You have to know who has access to it, and you have to know who makes copies. You also need to restrict access to the source to the portion of the project that each programmer is working on.

      There's obviously a balance between security and the ability to get stuff done, but if you give every programmer unfettered access to each of the 32M lines of source, with the ability to copy it to another machine - that's just dumb.

    10. Re:Access controls anyone? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      But who on earth though it was a good idea to give internet access to someone with access to valuable source code? Whatever happened to role based access restrictions?

            Most posts are assuming the code was stolen to attack GS, or sell it, or duplicate GS trading. The Russian was VP of the technology involved and a VP because he actually knows something. Being Russian is clue #1.

            The guy was leaving GS to take a position at a competitor. Making a personal copy of your code you developed (and other code involved) is illegal but not uncommon. Maybe the FTP'ing to a European computer is throwing people off, but smart people do things like that to throw people off, versus say FTP'ing to their home computer.

            I'm not sure about the encryption thing, for example who says it's encrypted and how they know and whether it's a GS lie or not, but I would expect this guy to encrypt the source code zip before sending it off to his European stash account to retrieve later. (much later, as in after he was sure his personal computers wouldn't be searched after leaving.)

        rd

    11. Re:Access controls anyone? by Quetzo · · Score: 1

      This is almost certainly not the source code in question. You are talking about a standard vwap engine that some firms use to trickle trade large orders. In fact only an idiot pension fund manager would ever call up his broker and tell him to sell 1MM shs of anything. ( or maybe one that's expecting ringside seats to the superbowl in the mail ). Anyway, what used to happen in the "ye olde days" to cop a phrase from another poster is that said idiot fund manager would call up 4-5 brokers at various banks and ask them to price a block of 1MM shares. If you did not consummate the trade with the broker thats on the phone right away, he starts dumping ( or buying ) the instant you get off the phone ( sometimes while he keeps you on the phone ). So that no matter what strategy you used to break up the order, the damage is done much before your flow even comes on the market.

      The software in question appears to be some sort of arb engine. Stat arb, index arb or futures arb. These engines typically need pricing data from various markets and execute trades on all those markets. They run a very small shortest path loop with one anchor to figure out whether certain items are getting out of sync ( they get out of sync for example, when a regular joe like you or me leaves a limit order hanging out there waiting for the market to trade through our price ). An engine like this will try to do a closed loop trade that makes maybe a penny or two with 0 risk at the end; ie there is not a great expectation of profit per trade but thousands of these an hour and millions a day add up pretty quickly. Any strategies layered on top of these ( wavelet anaylysis, momentum etc ) will try to increase the 1-2c to 2-5c etc. Based on the stuff this engine was touching and reading the resume on what the dude was doing at GS, this is my best guess.

  7. Proving theft.. by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Its hardly surprising that this sort of code is highly valuable but the challenge is surely going to be proving that it was actually stolen. If they have a bash history that doesn't include the IP addresses but just shows that he created a tar ball then where is the proof that he actually stole anything at all?

    The original is of course still there, what he took is a copy, so you can't show something is missing.

    They currently don't know where it has gone, so they can't prove that a copy was moved outside the firewall successfully

    If he hasn't yet sold the stuff on they can't prove there was a financial benefit linked to the theft

    So how will they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some actual theft has gone on?

    Its not like he has just lobbed it on Bit-torrent or posted it to Wikileaks. What he has done is taken a copy of the code, which means its Intellectual Property and copyright issues rather than "simple" theft and therefore they really need to prove (surely) that he has done something with the code.

    Should be interesting to see how the police "generate" and prove the evidence on this one.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:Proving theft.. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Whenever I run into a tough time proving a case, I fall back on due process of law...

    2. Re:Proving theft.. by japhering · · Score: 1

      So how will they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some actual theft has gone on?

      If GS has any brains, they don't go after him in criminal court they go after him in civil court, where the statndard is the preponderance of evidence and then attach anything any everything that in his name to pay off the billions of dollars they will get from the jury.

      All the while waiting on the feds to figure out how to nail him in criminal court, after all international spying is federal jurisdiction

    3. Re:Proving theft.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have clearly never worked on a leading financial companies' network before

    4. Re:Proving theft.. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      C'mon, it's anything but hard to prove that something "wrong" has been going on unless their security department deserves being fired for gross negligence.

      First, tarball. He created one? Was he responsible for backups, was he responsible for updates, for distribution, for anything that would justify making a tarball out of code? If not, first alarm bell that should have rang.

      Second, transfer. 32MB of source ain't something you trivially and routinely ship about, unless you have reason to. Did he have any good reason to transfer those 32ish MBs of data? I worked for a long time in a high security financial company, and a transfer of 32MB required more than just a nod from IT. Granted, that was in 2000, times have changed. But someone who has access to highly critical code should definitly be under better surveillance.

      So was he? If so, it should be trivial to find out that he did it. Was he not? It should be trivial to grab the CISO at his ankles and shake him for every cent he's worth, he duely deserves it in that case.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Proving theft.. by aricusmaximus · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you had RTFA'd you might have gone to http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-case-of-quant-trading-industrial.html and read the affidavit - http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/Complaint_--_Aleynikov.pdf, you would see that (a) they have proof that the file was transfered (b) they know *exactly* which server the files were uploaded to and (c) Sergey Aleynikov has already confessed to copying the files.

      Should be interesting to see how the police "generate" and prove the evidence on this one.

      It's all there in the affidavit.

    6. Re:Proving theft.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good lord... even the fucking summary says that he uploaded it to a German server. So obviously they know where it has gone.

      Mod parent down: -1, didn't read anything.

    7. Re:Proving theft.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, I'm exposing myself to a giant woosh, but... huh?!?

    8. Re:Proving theft.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you had RTFA'd you might have gone to http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-case-of-quant-trading-industrial.html and read the affidavit - http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/Complaint_--_Aleynikov.pdf, you would see that (a) they have proof that the file was transfered (b) they know *exactly* which server the files were uploaded to and (c) Sergey Aleynikov has already confessed to copying the files.

      Should be interesting to see how the police "generate" and prove the evidence on this one.

      It's all there in the affidavit.

      "A server in Germany" is hardly and exact location...

  8. Alternative theory....(and more probable) by tacokill · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...or, perhaps last week was a short trading week which cut into the already-low trading volume. Did you by chance compare the overall volume levels when you came up with your theory?

    I am betting you didn't because if you had, you'd see that the volume last week was way lower than the norm.

    More likely, lots of GS traders just took the week off and went on vacation.

    1. Re:Alternative theory....(and more probable) by Pixie_From_Hell · · Score: 5, Informative
      It's a good alternate theory, but you're a week off:

      On the week ending June 19, Goldman, for instance, was ranked first on the NYSE program trading list. But on the week of June 22, Goldman mysteriously didnâ(TM)t appear on the list of the top 15 firms at all.

      So unless the Fourth of July is celebrated in June, I think that's not the issue.

      Of course, I'm not checking the volume of trading either, so there could be something to your theory. (Of course, if GS bailed out for a week, wouldn't that lower the volume significantly? Weren't they the number one traders?)

    2. Re:Alternative theory....(and more probable) by KillerBob · · Score: 1

      I think it's more likely that they pulled themselves from trading while they updated their code/algorithms.

      If a malicious trader had their algorithms, he could know how the software would react in real time to his actions. It'd be fairly easy, from that point, to design a bot that could buy the right number of the right stock to trick GS' software into thinking that the stock is hot and buying large amounts of it. Buying large amounts of the stock would cause the price to rise, and then the bot can dump their stock at a profit.

      In other words... having their source code out there made it possible to pump&dump them. That's fraudulent at best, and doesn't *really* hurt people when you're talking about a few hundred dollars worth of penny stock (never play stocks with money you can't afford to lose), but when you're talking about one of the biggest trading houses in the world, with a trading volume in the billions of dollars... that's a very bad thing.

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    3. Re:Alternative theory....(and more probable) by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not real sure someone with the code would be able to do much at all. I guess someone with the code, billions of dollars (or at least tens of millions), a high volume trading interconnect, and quite a lot of time to analyze the code for self re-enforcing behaviors might be able to make a little bit of money.

      The whole point of the programmed trades is to take advantage of market conditions, staging the market so that one system goes AWOL is going to be a hell of a trick.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Alternative theory....(and more probable) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GS uses an Event Data Warehouse tool to capture and report on the logs from their enterprise assets and applications. This behavior was captured and reported upon as a part of both their normal SOX compliance auditing as well as exception alerting.

    5. Re:Alternative theory....(and more probable) by AVee · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they stopped trading, but that very week turned out to be a record week in terms of automatic trading volume. It could ofcourse be that they others have been extremely busy and reached that record without GS, even though they are normally the biggest automatic trader, but that would be really suprising.

  9. No one will touch that code. by Tei · · Score: 4, Funny

    Probably people that would do something similar, will never touch that code, for fear of be "tainted".

    And anyway.. most code create new stuff that is worthy a patent. But not because most programmers are genius, but because the patent system is crap. No one sould care about what is on that code, because any professional can recreate the code anyway with the same features. There are not "sacred" code in this world. More the other stuff... Is really hard to make other people look at your code. The bussines type of guys dont want to look at your code. The users don't want to look at your code. Often, others programmers don't want to look at your code. Maybe is more valuable and interesting the features, and the documentation, the analysys of the problem, than the fucking source code. I do like to read source code, but I am one in a million (of programmers) and theres probably around 7 million programmers, so probably theres only another 7 dudes like me :-I

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

    1. Re:No one will touch that code. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on,.... are you that slow, what do we care about using the code we want to find the holes and with the code it takes less time
      1. get the code
      2. find the hole
      3. profit :)

    2. Re:No one will touch that code. by Snarf+You · · Score: 1

      I do like to read source code, but I am one in a million (of programmers) and theres probably around 7 million programmers, so probably theres only another 7 dudes like me :-I

      Slight correction on the math: if there are 7 million programmers, and 1 in a million enjoy reading source code, there should be 7 total. You are one of them, thus there should be 6 other dudes like you.

      And I am one of those 6.

      The search is on for the other 5 dudes like us.

    3. Re:No one will touch that code. by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Funny

      The "extra" 1 out of 7 represent a better than 14% return, which is excellent. Just the sort of trade secret any major trading house would love to have.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    4. Re:No one will touch that code. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The code itself is most likely very trivial. What the code does is anything but that. That code is not about the next great thing in how to implement a square root in only 5 cycles or how to search faster than binary. The programming is most likely dull like a lecture from your programming 101 teacher.

      The interesting part is what the code does. Sure, it would be "nicer" if you could instead read an abstract or white paper telling you, but you don't have that. Instead, you have the code.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:No one will touch that code. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The search is on for the other 5 dudes like us.

      Get a room

    6. Re:No one will touch that code. by Algan · · Score: 1

      The code itself is not a big deal, the trading strategy behind it is. A competitor would be able to know in advance how Goldman Sachs' trading systems will respond to any given situation so will be able to adjust its strategy to counteract GS's. Given the fast pace of real time trading and the volume that GS does, this could lead to immense losses pretty quickly. Which is why GS probably had to shut down or alter their real time trading system already. Even if no outsiders have actually seen that code, it would be irresponsible for GS not to take action... which means that either way, they're screwed.

      --
      If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
    7. Re:No one will touch that code. by Missing_dc · · Score: 1

      If your code is anything like your english, it must take forever to interpret.

      Maybe you should flowchart or use a debugger before posting.

      I mean, wow, I can see where your thoughts are going, but parsing your post generated a ton of syntax errors.

      --
      How amazed would you be to suddenly find that you just forgot what I wrote and you needed to reread my post.... again.
  10. Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    GS's code for program trading is all written in a proprietary programming language called slang and relies on a proprietary database (secdb).

    The install for that is a hell of a lot bigger than 32 MB, so this is probably just a few trading algorithms that a pissed-off developer has copied away.

    It will be largely useless without the slang and secdb components and will be totally unsafe to trade off without a sufficient source of historic data and reference data, correctly formatted and loaded into secdb.

    The idea that this leak is likely to be in any way materially damaging to GS is frankly a joke to anyone with even a passing knowledge of how these systems really operate.

    But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia about how the world works.

    1. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well done, sir. I was thinking about just the same (slang/secdb).

      Of course, it wont be easy to install the whole system and then put those bits of code he stole on it and run it. But it is entirely possible those algos were not his, but coming from some of the very important core modules. It can still carry a large value.

    2. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dammit, put your tin foil hat back on. You're making us look bad.

      The algorithm could be all the competitor needs to implement something similar on their own DB/trade application. I mean, I'm sure Bing would love to have some Google code, even if they don't implement it, just to try to 1 up it.

    3. Re:Non-story by MadFarmAnimalz · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It will be largely useless without the slang and secdb components

      If you didn't have a python/java/$LANGUAGE interpreter and no python/java/$LANGUAGE documentation you'd probably still be able to glean the logic and algorithms from the code. The trade secret is the algorithms not the computer instructions representing them.

      --
      Blearf. Blearf, I say.
    4. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, cool, another ex-strat weighing in. Seen MAF around recently?

      We're talking about PT code here, and although they use the train code to talk to the secservs, the really important stuff isn't written in slang. And even if this is the slang bits, the code without the interpreter is cause enough for a Really Bad Day(tm).

    5. Re:Non-story by anothy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      i have a somewhat-better-than-passing knowledge of how these systems work. i'm very unconvinced by your explanation.

      you seem to be assuming the intent would be to out-compete Goldman by re-implementing this system, perhaps with some changes/optimizations. for that, sure, you'd need the rest of the environment. but a good understanding of the algorithm and implementation could be obtained without the rest of the environment (like i can read C# code and extract the algorithms without having the rest of the environment). that seems like it would be enough to game Goldman's system (which is a sizable part of the system overall).

      note that i am not asserting that this is a catastrophe for Goldman, just that your explanation isn't convincing. i will, however, agree with a previous poster that Goldman's sudden absence from NYSE's 15 most active members, rather than being #1 as they had for a good while, is very suspicious.

      --

      i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
    6. Re:Non-story by vagabond_gr · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly, nobody needs to run the code, just understand some parts of it.

      Clearly Goldman Sachs should have used Perl, which has the "write-only" security feature built well into the language.

    7. Re:Non-story by DavidHumus · · Score: 1

      Even without knowing these idiosyncrasies, it's unlikely that the code is runnable without the expensive, unique infrastructure for which it's been customized.

      As far as "gaming the algorithm" - it's doing real-time processing between multiple sources. You're unlikely to discover anything by reading the code other than that they do some seemingly-odd things in the interests of efficiency. In fact, you can probably guess the most important algorithm: if the same thing is priced differently at two different exchanges, buy the cheaper one and sell the more expensive one.

    8. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you didn't have a python/java/$LANGUAGE interpreter and no python/java/$LANGUAGE documentation you'd probably still be able to glean the logic and algorithms from the code

      But you have to undestand that this is written in slang. There's no way for an average citizen to dechyper code like : "rebizzle the zizzle if the stizzle reaches the quarizzle"
      Now, you could of cause hire a rapper to translate it back to plain english but since they already have most of the cash in the world you probably couldn't lure them away from the bare-breasted-women pool parties they're always having.

      - Peder

    9. Re:Non-story by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      you seem to be assuming the intent would be to out-compete Goldman by re-implementing this system, perhaps with some changes/optimizations. for that, sure, you'd need the rest of the environment. but a good understanding of the algorithm and implementation could be obtained without the rest of the environment (like i can read C# code and extract the algorithms without having the rest of the environment). that seems like it would be enough to game Goldman's system (which is a sizable part of the system overall)

      I often wonder if people don't think something to be more valuable than it really is.

      For example, let's assume someone wanted ti implement a similar program elsewhere. So I hire away teh coder, who decides to bring the code along. If they are smart enough to understand the code they're probably smart enough to re-implement it and avoid criminal charges. Unless it is a stand alone program that is easily transferred, having the code vs having the knowledge of how it works, is probably of limited use. Yes you can refer to it and jog your memory; but it's probably cheaper in the long run just to hire away the developers. can't do that? Then you probably aren't able to run with the big dogs anyway.

      Know, if you wanted to game the system and had an insider why would you want them to leave. As with any espionage operation, having a well placed mole is worth a lot since they can get real time information which you can analyze and use to direct their efforts. Once they leave, they're knowledge becomes less valuable with every passing minute; which is why you try to keep them in place as long as possible.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    10. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without a serious volume of historic data and the necessary reference data in a format the code can use, I wouldn't bet on being able to game the system accurately.

      While the absence of GS from the NYSE's Top 15 most active could be a precaution, I'd doubt it's any more than that.

      Still, you've piqued my curiosity - think I'll see what my old GS buddies say about this over beer one night soon...

    11. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A decent programmer could sus the algos regardless and a team of them could potentially duplicate the logic, language-independent. Still, i think there's a good chance guy just wanted to have the source he worked on since he was changing jobs. I know I'd like to take a lot of the code libraries I've worked on over the years, just as reference alone. And of course that stuff is small potatoes compared to this.

    12. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      their algorithm (and everyone's ``unique-super-secret-algo we-keep-under-lock-and-key''):

      Rolling N seconds [n usually being 5 to 20 seconds]: if price is greater than rolling M*sd, [M is usually 2] then sell, if price is less than rolling -M*sd then buy. Yep. That's it.

      Cleverness is with doing this efficiently (using 2nd - 1st moment squared to get sd, etc. [you'd be surprised how many folks can't calculate sd right]) and with N, M values [simulations against historical find N, M that maximize profit---against historical data].

      Yes, they're all based on this. They could be rolling candles, calculating momentum, regressing the derivative, etc., all based on N seconds, and all some M units away (ie: functionally equivalent).

      And of course you can do the reverse (of trying to benefit when the above algo goes wrong---such as reversing buy/sell decision, with different N, M values---like buy when stock seems to be going up, etc.)

    13. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming some useful algorithm was actually leaked: I doubt that a single person reading these posts has the capital or the order routing ability to utilize those algorithms.

      They are probably some variation of index arbitrage. That is not some top-secret manipulation of the market -- how it's done is public knowledge. Only institutions do it because of the capital and infrastructure requirements. The time it takes for your order to get routed, filled, and confirmed is more important than the algorithm itself.

      And the commissions you pay at your retail broker aren't going to allow you to make any money with any institutional trading algorithms. Ever. These are not buy x shares of this stock at this price and sell x shares at that price.

      These would be trading futures, commodities, complex options spreads on those, pairs trading (i dunno - hedge a short oil position by being short transportation sector?), trading the spread between the Nasdaq and the S&P or any other index for that matter, probably throw in some hedges with bonds and currencies.

      And you can do all of that with your retail broker, so someone at Goldman in the know would laugh at those examples I wrote above. Point is, there is always a bigger fish who knows more than you and none of the proprietary trading algos at GS are going to be of use to any of you reading this.

      These are not complex AI or market manipulation programs. Just big-volume hedging algorithms.

    14. Re:Non-story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you can "game" their system. Institutions don't move markets at their whim. They can make a nice pop up by hitting every offer until they don't have any capital left. Then it gets pushed right back down by every other institution hitting all the new bids that hit the exchange after that pop up.

      Sometimes you have more buyers than sellers. This makes the chart go up. And sometimes you have more sellers than buyers. This makes the chart go down.

      What causes a majority consensus among all market participants on when to be a buyer and when to be a seller is the real question. And institutions have no effect on that. Joe-daytrader might get head faked out of a short position by the hypothetical pop up I mentioned above, but other institutions are not fooled, and will sell the pop up in a way that has completely defined risk. They are not just "placing a bet".

      Don't let that get in the way of your conspiracies and plunge protection teams etc, though... Have fun.

    15. Re:Non-story by Splab · · Score: 1

      While we can all laugh at the silly perl jokes, they should just implement it in APL and no one would be able to do anything with the code ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language) )

    16. Re:Non-story by overbored · · Score: 1

      The OP's point is not that you wouldn't be able to interpret the logic, but that the logic could be useless without the dataset it operates on. Cf. any statistical supervised learning algorithm that consume hand-labeled training samples.

  11. Operation mayhem? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    "Oh look: now they check FBIs intel on LinkedIn to see if they got it right."

    Aleynikov (pronounced Aley-nick-off) stole the code and Tyler Durden was all over the story a week ago.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  12. "codes"? by zarkill · · Score: 1

    The article keeps referring to what was stolen as "codes". Does that mean "source code" or are they talking about some kind of access codes or authentication keys or something, like the way people call their bank PIN their "secret code" ?

    1. Re:"codes"? by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1

      The article keeps referring to what was stolen as "codes". Does that mean "source code" or are they talking about some kind of access codes

      I noticed that too. Nowhere in the article does it actually say "source code". It just says things like:

      "being held on federal charges of stealing top-secret computer trading codes"
      "the codes Sergey Aleynikov tried to steal"
      "Federal authorities allege the computer codes and related-trading files that Aleynikov uploaded"

      Of course, the guy writing this article may not even know wat source code is.

  13. The code is worthless by lxs · · Score: 4, Funny
    1. Re:The code is worthless by jeffasselin · · Score: 1

      "Server not found"

      I'm probably not on the cabal's DNS servers.

      --
      If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
    2. Re:The code is worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an old link. The Illuminati have merged with Bilderberg. Ignore all the conspiracy theory shit. That's just to make you think you're not on the real Bilderberg site.

    3. Re:The code is worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Dammit! They took it down because you posted the link! Way to go, jerk.

    4. Re:The code is worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn it. Slashdotted!

  14. No, it belongs to the U.S. people by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Considering that they got about $13 billion of our taxpayer money as part of the AIG bailout, I'd say that software belongs in part to us too.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:No, it belongs to the U.S. people by cathars1s · · Score: 1

      They were forced to take the money by the Fed and they tried to repay it within days because they didn't want the ex post facto strings attached.

    2. Re:No, it belongs to the U.S. people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goldman is one of the banks that recently paid that back, with interest.

      A related aside though... do you use credit cards? have a car loan or mortgage loan? If so (or just imagine you did), would you consider yourself to be "owned" by those entities to whom you owed money to?

    3. Re:No, it belongs to the U.S. people by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

      elrous0 is bitching about something else. AIG is 'unwinding' the insane contracts that drove them out of business; rather than declaring bankruptcy and paying pennies on the dollar, they got 80-some billion dollars from the government and payed it to the people they had these contracts with. elrous0 is saying that Goldman Sachs got $13 billion of that money.

      Of course, between Goldman manipulating and controlling the government in order to receive that money (Secretary Paulson, who did much of the bailing out of AIG was a former Goldman CEO) and the government deciding to bail out AIG in order to preserve millions of annuities and whole life insurance policies, I choose to wear the blinders that let me believe in the latter.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:No, it belongs to the U.S. people by radish · · Score: 1

      AIG is 'unwinding' the insane contracts that drove them out of business; rather than declaring bankruptcy and paying pennies on the dollar, they got 80-some billion dollars from the government and payed it to the people they had these contracts with

      Indeed, because a failure of AIG would be a bad, bad thing on many levels. The whole reason AIG got that money was to pay back the people it owed, to try and bring some stability back to the financial system. GS was one of those creditors, as were many others. I'm sure much of the $13b GS got back went straight back out the door to people they owed, and so on - trickle down.

      Secretary Paulson, who did much of the bailing out of AIG was a former Goldman CEO

      And as such he was someone who clearly knew how the system works inside-and-out, hiring him was one of the few good decisions Bush ever made. He's also obviously got nothing to gain personally from GS doing well as he's not even a stockholder.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    5. Re:No, it belongs to the U.S. people by maxume · · Score: 1

      As someone with almost no assets, I'm not sure preserving the status quo was worth it. I mean, it is obvious to me that it was worth it for much of the population, but I'm not sure it did me any good.

      My biggest concern would be whether there were any supply disruptions, but I'm not sure there would have been any.

      Hopefully home prices stagnate for a couple of decades (I won't be in the market for at least 1 of those decades, so hey, why not). There is at least a chance they will, it all depends on how shocked people were by this bubble popping, and how big the next few bubbles are.

      (And I don't think Paulson acted to protect narrow interests, I think he acted to protect the entire establishment (a group which I think includes every single baby boomer with a 401k or pension plan (and anyone else with significant assets or interests in the current economy)))

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  15. From the summary: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "The world's most valuable source code could be in the wild."

    Duke Nukem Forever? Oh joy.

    1. Re:From the summary: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the source engine!!!!!

    2. Re:From the summary: by Ascagnel · · Score: 1

      That got leaked circa 2003, in The Big Half-Life 2 Leak of 2003.

      --
      "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine."
  16. Cheating by hummassa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Down here in Brasil, there is an interesting card game called Truco ("trick me"/"triple up" portmanteau in Portuguese) -- every college student in my State plays it :-D One of the most interesting rules is: "you can cheat as long as nobody catches you in the act". The financial market is based exactly on the same rule.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:Cheating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possibly the same game exists in the UK, simply known as "cheat". If someone accuses you of cheating i.e. picking up multiple cards when you haven't they are penalised. The core rules are very simple, so deciding to risk cheating or not (and developing the sleight of hand to do it) pretty much is the game.

    2. Re:Cheating by fmobus · · Score: 1

      The brazilian game mentioned by the GP is quite more complicated, and has some regional variations. But it is quite entertaining and somewhat hard to master. Wikipedia

    3. Re:Cheating by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      In the US, we have a game called "bullshit." Basically, you have the players who take turns laying down cards. First player lays down any number of aces he has in his hand, while announcing how many and placing them face down. The next player does it with twos, the next with threes, and so on. If you think someone is lying (by laying down more cards or by laying down cards other than the given face value assigned to him this round), you yell "bullshit" and reveal his cards. If he's caught, he takes the whole pile that has been laid down so far. If he's truthful, the "bullshit" caller takes the pile.

      First to run out of cards wins. When you get to kings, start back over at aces. Bullshit.

  17. What's the exit strategy? by Sits · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I were a rival to Goldman Sachs I would be terrified of someone offering me Goldman's source code. If I use it and Goldman find out then I'm in a world of trouble. If I use it but Goldman don't know for a bit AND the person who offered it knows I used it, then they can blackmail me. Even if I don't use it there could be expensive legal battles to prove my innocence ("Exhibit A shows the same loop variable counter is used in these two different source code bases." "?!"). How do I know it's not a trap? It would be like someone offering the secret of Coke to Pepsi - what do you expect Pepsi to do? Use the secret? What if they like their product more?

    Obviously there must be another angle if this situation is true to drive someone to actually do it. I just can't figure it out at the moment.

    1. Re:What's the exit strategy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be like someone offering the secret of Coke to Pepsi - what do you expect Pepsi to do?

      That sort of happened, and yes Pepsi did immediately inform Coca-Cola.

    2. Re:What's the exit strategy? by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Actually, Pepsi and Coke know each other's formulas. Have since the early nineteen hundreds. There's nothing really secret about the formula, it's just that people who prefer one to the other are already entrenched with marketing, and there isn't any incentive to switch brands on something that is exactly identical. As long as they've got slightly different tastes, they don't have to get into a price war.

      Oh, and the KFC "secret blend of eleven herbs and spices"? All marketing. All that they really use is flour, salt, and MSG.

    3. Re:What's the exit strategy? by zarkill · · Score: 4, Informative

      It would be like someone offering the secret of Coke to Pepsi - what do you expect Pepsi to do?

      that very thing happened a few years ago - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5152740.stm

      pepsi declined the offer and reported it as a theft of trade secrets.

    4. Re:What's the exit strategy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what Pepsi would do: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06188/704045-28.stm

    5. Re:What's the exit strategy? by dintech · · Score: 1

      It's possible that he wasn't going to sell it to anyone. I think he was just moving his toolbox to the next job rather than re-write common/useful stuff he might need again from memory. This sort of thing is quite common.

      Anyway, I doubt his next employer knew anything about it in advance. Would you hire a guy who was going to walk out with your code when he left? No major bank would want anything to do with this particular headache.

    6. Re:What's the exit strategy? by PPH · · Score: 1

      The difference between utilizing this code and stealing a design or secret formula for a product is that this system is never going to see the light of day for sale as a competing product. There will be no executable to reverse engineer that will reveal similarities. The only thing visible to the public and GS attorneys will be a pattern of trades. And they'll have a difficult time proving that someone else didn't just build a similar system from the ground up.

      Granted, there is still the possibility of blackmail. But this is usually taken care of by ensuring that anyone familiar with the codes origins will also be charged as a co-conspirator. And cutting them in on the profits for additional motivation.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:What's the exit strategy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could just be a non-US company who doesn't care about US-laws or the influence of GS.

      For example a Chinese or Russian company that's got close ties to the government. Goldmann doesn't hold a monopoly on corruption and subversion of governments.

    8. Re:What's the exit strategy? by True+Grit · · Score: 1

      pepsi declined the offer and reported it as a theft of trade secrets

      I'll bet it was the recipe for New Coke, so no wonder Pepsi turned it down!

      :)

  18. GS Runs Linux. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just notice the sentence with the word bash. I'm sure Goldman Sachs runs Linux. Take that M$! You are your .NET, C# stinking attitude!

  19. Their source code is useless by bartwol · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I worked for a financial services company that had similar types of systems. The legal department and security people were always concerned about people stealing our source code.

    But their fears were unfounded. Why? Because the source code is highly customized code that not only implements thoroughly non-standards-based algorithms, but is also tightly coupled to underlying hardware/software platforms (and the non-standardized APIs of their peer systems). The result: you can't run it anywhere but on the infrastructure of the company for which it was built. Sure, you could pull out a subroutine here or there. But overall, it's pretty worthless stuff.

    Humorously, we had a large, difficult, multi-year project to port our code to a newer hardware platform (same O.S. and language tools). I joked that we should post all our source code on the web for free unencumbered download, and if somebody could get it to run on the newer (or any other) platform, we could pay them $2 million for their effort and still come out way ahead in the deal. Everybody laughed and agreed that that would be a dream come true.

    1. Re:Their source code is useless by anothy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you're only looking at reputable players here. sure, BofA won't touch GS's code, for a host of very good reasons like those you describe. but for someone looking to game GS's system, being able to run the code is totally unimportant: just reading it could likely be enough to extract exploitable characteristics.

      --

      i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
    2. Re:Their source code is useless by bartwol · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Nope. You're unlikely to find interesting stuff there. The trading strategies mostly exist in the heads of traders, sometimes on their spreadsheets, sometimes in VB on their desktops, but rarely in the data centers.

      It's easy to think of these companies as monoliths, but it's not like that at all. Most of them have grown through acquisition. The systems of the acquired companies are only loosely integrated into core systems. And you'd be surprised how competitive and autonomous their traders are...each one tries to find his own advantage, and when he does, he's HIGHLY protective of it and unlikely to have the inclination or resources to put it into code.

      There are some exceptions to this. For example, there are some large asset inventory databases with an occasionally interesting costing methodology that could be useful to just the right kind of person who is positioned just right to take advantage of that knowledge. But that's a highly speculative and unlikely possibility.

    3. Re:Their source code is useless by powerlord · · Score: 1

      Nope. You're unlikely to find interesting stuff there. The trading strategies mostly exist in the heads of traders, sometimes on their spreadsheets, sometimes in VB on their desktops, but rarely in the data centers.
      It's easy to think of these companies as monoliths, but it's not like that at all. Most of them have grown through acquisition. The systems of the acquired companies are only loosely integrated into core systems. And you'd be surprised how competitive and autonomous their traders are...each one tries to find his own advantage, and when he does, he's HIGHLY protective of it and unlikely to have the inclination or resources to put it into code.

      There are some exceptions to this. For example, there are some large asset inventory databases with an occasionally interesting costing methodology that could be useful to just the right kind of person who is positioned just right to take advantage of that knowledge. But that's a highly speculative and unlikely possibility.

      But the article isn't talking about the "traditional" trading system that involves real Traders. Its talking about the automated system that drives that system in the "micro-second"/"low latency"/"trendy term" trade arena.

      Basically the trader says "buy X" the system then floods the markets buys and sells (all quickly cancelled) to create a sea of white noise in which the actual trade is going to be created, just so any other LL system watching can't just pounce and buy/sell itself until the price stabilizes a bit to take advantage of the actual order/sale, plus outside "viewers" can't as easily follow what the banks own system is doing. :/

      Makes me think the systems are designed/programmed by people who read "The Art of War" and then played too many games of C&C before going to work one day "We must generate a Fog of War!")

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
  20. Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by Enleth · · Score: 1

    $ sftp && kill -9 `/sbin/pidof `/bin/basename $SHELL``

    Unless the shell is modified to append commands to the history file *before* executing them (as far as I know, no shell does that out of the box), or the system is hardened (exec() logging etc.), this will take care of any history logs.

    --
    This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    1. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by daid303 · · Score: 1

      $ rm ~/.bash_history && ln -s /dev/null ~/.bash_history
      Works for all commands, forever.

    2. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by Enleth · · Score: 2, Informative

      But it's an instant giveaway that something sleazy is going on. Every automated security auditing tool checks for that and every sysadmin worth his salary knows this "trick".

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    3. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HISTSIZE=0

      Instant private shell session.

    4. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The FBI article points to bash history as a piece of evidence.

      It doesn't say if anything else was used internally to find the breach which also would have recorded, oh I don't know, keystroke history. That seems like something that is shell history" and "can't delete" (if kept off server) and something that the probably wouldn't want to leak out as well.

    5. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's an easier way if it's bash. Bash writes updates the history file on shell exit. "unset HISTFILE" suffices.

    6. Re:Looks like he skipped the Unix classes by True+Grit · · Score: 1

      In addition to what Enleth said, why are we all assuming they run a *stock* bash on these sensitive systems? I'll bet money there's a "secured" shell out there somewhere, or perhaps they just customized a version of bash, that will not let you do this at all. Its logging is automatic and hardwired I'll bet.

  21. So the question, where are the 32MB of encrypted f by ChoboMog · · Score: 3, Funny

    So the question, where are the 32MB of encrypted files that Sergey uploaded to a German server?

    Rapidshare?

  22. "Project Mayhem" Alternate Ending? by tunapez · · Score: 1

    Anyone notice the 2nd article's author's name? Wouldn't it be nice if this bit of info exposed the market manipulations that led us down the road of $124 barrel oil? Tyler Durden eat your heart out, maybe Robin Hood will save the day!

    sigh...that shit only happens in the movies.

    --
    Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
  23. as you suggest by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 1

    it would be the insider trading from hell.

  24. What if? by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    What if this is all a ruse? What if the source code released isn't the real source? What if, when people start making trades based on it, they find that the advantage goes to GS because it was specifically designed and released to mislead?

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    1. Re:What if? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a ruse, and that's all I can say.

    2. Re:What if? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      How do we know your post isn't a ruse?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  25. Information wants to be free! by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Funny

    I think it's wonderful that the code has been reintroduced to the wild. Looks like their captive breeding program has been quite a success!

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  26. We'll save so much money by hiring Russian coders by TheGrapeApe · · Score: 1

    Flashback to a meeting with a bunch of douchebag MBAs 4 years ago at Goldman Sachs:

    MBA Dbag 1: "We'll save so much money by moving these coding jobs overseas to Russia! American coders are getting too expensive!"

    MBA Dbag2: "I don't see any drawbacks. Let's do it. As long as they can't outsource us playing phonetag and having meetings with each other all day, right?"

  27. a convenient fire by rs232 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    'This week's NYSE Program Trading report was very odd .. what was shocking was the disappearance of the #1 mainstay of complete trading domination (i.e., Goldman Sachs) from not just the aforementioned #1 spot, but the entire complete list. In other words: Goldman went from 1st to N/A in one week'

    US v Sergey Aleynikov, Violations of 18 U.S.C $$ 1832(a) (2), 2314, & 2

    "ALEYNIKOV claimed, however, that he only intended to collect "open source" files on which he had worked, but later realized he had obtained more files than he intended. ALEYNIKOV aslo admitted that he has uploaded files from his work desktop from home. ALEYNIKOV claimed he did not distribute any of the proprietary software that he obtained from the Financial Institution, and further claimed that he has abided by an agreement he entered into with his new employer not to use any unlicensed software"

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  28. Likely not another angle by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Crooks aren't always that smart. The guy may have the plan of "I take code, sell it to rival, I make millions," having not thought the practical matter through. As another poster noted, the Pepsi/Coke thing DID happen and what they did was contact the FBI.

    While this isn't quite the same situation here, I'm betting the result would be the same. No legit corp wants to be involved in shit like this. It just wouldn't make sense and you'd stand to lose WAY more than you'd stand to gain. So they'd ignore the guy or, more likely, go to the authorities.

    He probably has essentially stolen something that is worthless because there is no market. In theory it has a high value because it is special and was expensive to make but in practice nobody probably wants to buy it and as such it isn't worth anything.

  29. Nice! by Exitar · · Score: 1

    Now I can download their system with bittorrent and become billionaire in seconds!

    1. Re:Nice! by jo42 · · Score: 1

      Psst! The magnet link for the "C0de" is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c0dec0dec0dec0dec0dec0dec0dec0dec0dec0de

  30. I can't believe. by Roskolnikov · · Score: 1

    Is bash history admissible in court? really? does the 5th amendment apply, it might be considered testimony against ones self.

    fun....

    --
    Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
    1. Re:I can't believe. by maxume · · Score: 1

      It wasn't his computer.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:I can't believe. by C_Kode · · Score: 1

      Anything editable by the user is unacceptable. I work in the financial district as an Infrastructure Engineer. Instant messages are a big channel of communications between traders and brokers. If the IMs are stored on a users local machine they are pretty much useless in court. You need a external IM logger of sort. Since bash history is editable by a user, it's useless in court.

    3. Re:I can't believe. by nacturation · · Score: 1

      A record of your actions can't be used against you? That would make video cameras useless as evidence since it records your own actions and would constitute testimony against you.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  31. Disabling bash history logging by guacamole · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe disabling bash's history logging into a file is as easy as typing :

    HISTFILE=

    at the prompt. In other words, he was probably one command line away from being detected..

    1. Re:Disabling bash history logging by naich · · Score: 1

      Or "rm ~/.bash_history" after you've done your business. There are always at least a couple of different ways of doing things with Linux.

    2. Re:Disabling bash history logging by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      You are assuming stock bash. It is of course quite trivial (as suggested also in TFA) to change bash's history behaviour and have the details not just written to the file given in $HISTFILE but (also) silently to some remote history file, potentially on a remote server. Just to add a little more monitoring to people that deal with high value stuff.

    3. Re:Disabling bash history logging by guacamole · · Score: 1

      Removing own .bash_history file is automatically a grounds for suspicion of malevolent behavior. And if someone suspects your account of malevolent activity, recovering the contents of the deleted .bash_history file from the disk is often possible. HISTFILE= is a much better, stealthier option. In the later case, nothing gets logged on the disk at all, and so no trace of activity is present on the disk. (Of course, there are more esoteric ways of monitoring someones activity, such as the process accounting files, and real security logging software.. but most sysadmins of course do not bother to do use that).

    4. Re:Disabling bash history logging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe disabling bash's history logging into a file is as easy as typing :

      HISTFILE=

      at the prompt. In other words, he was probably one command line away from being detected..

      He should finish his session with >kill -9 $$
      This works unless they have smth. like PowerBroker

    5. Re:Disabling bash history logging by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      And I suspect you are aware of this trick, but none of the sysadmins at GS are aware of this trick.

  32. Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Germany?

  33. Finally by mikeage · · Score: 1

    We can finally know what goes in the ????? before PROFIT!

    --
    -- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
  34. not exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    They weren't forced, they were part of the insider deals to get the loot. What backfired on them was the executive bonus compensations limitations proposals that came along later. They were perfectly willing to take money they didn't have and use it to acquire other assets initially.

  35. H1 Visa's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this an argument against H1 Visa's?

  36. I reverse engineered the GS trading algorithm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Based on the Rolling Stones article I was able to reverse engineer the core Goldman Sachs trading algorithm:

    #include
    int main( int argc, const char* argv[] )
    {
    pump();
    dump();
    }

    1. Re:I reverse engineered the GS trading algorithm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not funNy komrade;

  37. Bash is responsible for it. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Funny

    Had it been Vista, this guy would have been busted long back by, "You are trying to steal the valuable source code from your employer. Cancel or allow?" dialog.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  38. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  39. Are you sure this wasn't intentionally done? by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    If we leak the source code, maybe we can take their economy down too. Less competition. Heck, let's give it to the BRICs. We can have a level playing field of algorithmically generated idiocy.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  40. This has been modded funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...but I guess it's "laughing at" rather than "laughing with"

    1. Re:This has been modded funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be an asshat. I'm guessing you don't even speak a second language.

  41. where are the 32MB of encrypted files by furby076 · · Score: 1

    I would say they are surfing in the cloud

    --

    I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
  42. Government Sachs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cry me a river. Their "secret" is not their trading programs, it's their revolving door with governments and total regulatory capture. Is it just coincidence some years ago their CEO was leading the charge to "deregulate" so that Goldman Sachs could raise leverage limits to insane danger levels? Then years later the same man (Hank Paulson) is the Treasury chief issuing bailouts to his own company? Who give a hoot about the code? But yeah code is meant to be free, so if it's out there then good.

  43. Is this valuable by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

    Is this valuable because they paid too much for it, or because it was heavily involved in putting our economy in the tank and they would prefer that the world not see what the bubble was based on, lest their be lawsuits?

  44. It appears outrageous to me. by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    Why is this software so valuable? It is so valuable because of the complexity of the financial markets!

    Why are the financial markets so complex?
    Are they unnecessarily complex?
    Does the complexity fairly serve US citizens?
    Does the complexity fairly serve US businesses?

    These are burning questions that must be addressed, but are being ignored.

  45. Worthless Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean the worthless code from a /failed/ Goldman Sachs? The possibilities are endless.

  46. Bash?? by sam0vi · · Score: 1

    Bash?? Really?? Then i guess we don't have to ask the age old question... What OS do their systems run??

    --
    When my Karma level reaches 0 I feel in piece with the Universe
  47. I don't even see source code anymore... by kungfugleek · · Score: 1

    All I see now is: bond... stock... low-yield bank deposit.

  48. FFS, stop blowing this up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AFAIK, the guy simply stole the code for an "algo" - an engine that takes trading decisions based on a set of formulae. These things take a good year to develop and have an active life of a few weeks until someone figures out the algorithms and starts trading against them.

    This is not news, this stuff exists since years. The theft isn't a surprise either, there is quite a bit of competition in that small market. There is AFAIK only a limited set of people who can develop this, put it into live use and make a profit for as long as it works.

  49. I have the code right here... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 3, Funny

    Here is a copy of the code in it's entirety -

    Buy Low
    Sell High

    --
    "But this one goes to 11!"
  50. the code Goldman used to tank itself. by swschrad · · Score: 1

    truly a pearl of great price, I'm sure.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  51. Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is a long article in Rolling Stone magazine this month, The Great American Bubble Machine, alleging that banks control the U.S. government and that Goldman Sachs is one of the leaders of the corruption. Anyone wanting to know more about how the financial corruption of the U.S. government is operated should read the article. The article alleges that Goldman Sachs will use any manipulation whatsoever to get money.

    This Slashdot comment, The Investment Banking cohorts JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs are the **huge** winners, discusses some of the issues. The Slashdot comment links to the Rolling Stone article, but that copy of the article has been removed.

    According to the Rolling Stone article, Goldman Sachs makes money mostly through corruption, not investment insight. Your tax money may be their profit: Goldman Sachs takes $12B Bailout, Hands out $14B Bonuses. (The article lists British pounds, the Digg article lists dollars.)

    The corruption is not new. For example, see the May 13, 2002 article in Business Week, How Corrupt Is Wall Street? New revelations have investors baying for blood, and the scandal is widening Quote: "Consider Enron, which has paid $323 million to Wall Street in underwriting fees since 1986, according to Thomson. Goldman, Sachs & Co. (GS ) pocketed $69 million of that..." Enron, of course, went bankrupt when it was discovered the company was dishonest.

    Beginning in 2002, Warren Buffett began very publicly calling derivatives "financial weapons of mass destruction". That particular part of the corruption was caused by the removal of laws designed to prevent fraud, at the beginning of George W. Bush's first term. Nothing was done to reinstate the laws, and that's why we are suffering now. Why was nothing done? Numerous articles say the corruption was allowed to happen because Goldman Sachs people control the U.S. government's Federal Reserve Bank. To give a small indication of the level of corruption, the "Federal Reserve Bank" is not federal, there is nothing in reserve, and it is not a bank.

    1. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Goldman Sachs IS the US government. It was made perfectly clear when other investment banks were failing. When the sharks started circling GS, the government stepped in and shut it down.

    2. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by djtack · · Score: 1

      Your tax money may be their profit: Goldman Sachs takes $12B Bailout, Hands out $14B Bonuses [digg.com]

      Your Digg author has confused millions with billions. There's a slight difference.

    3. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "removal of laws designed to prevent fraud, at the beginning of George W. Bush's first term"

      Are you referring to the repeal of Glass-Steagall?

      That was signed into law by Bill Clinton. A distinction, and not quite the way you intended it.

      At least let's not disguise history too much, ok?

      If you were referring to some other legislation, please let me know. I'm trying to keep track of these things, and the second Bush administration took some time to get around to that, if I recall.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    4. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beginning in 2002, Warren Buffett began very publicly calling derivatives "financial weapons of mass destruction". That particular part of the corruption was caused by the removal of laws designed to prevent fraud, at the beginning of George W. Bush's first term. Nothing was done to reinstate the laws, and that's why we are suffering now. Why was nothing done? Numerous articles say the corruption was allowed to happen because Goldman Sachs people control the U.S. government's Federal Reserve Bank. To give a small indication of the level of corruption, the "Federal Reserve Bank" is not federal, there is nothing in reserve, and it is not a bank.

      fast forward to 2008, and warren buffett has basically bet his whole company and then some more on there not being a big depression... through derivatives.

    5. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rolling stone article is conspiracy drivel some pothead wrote for a quick buck. His past work includes 52 funniest things about the upcoming death of the pope.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Taibbi

    6. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by Hynee · · Score: 1

      There is a long article in Rolling Stone [http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/28816321/the_great_american_bubble_machine] magazine this month, The Great American Bubble Machine, alleging that banks control the U.S. government and that Goldman Sachs is one of the leaders of the corruption. Anyone wanting to know more about how the financial corruption of the U.S. government is operated should read the article. The article alleges that Goldman Sachs will use any manipulation whatsoever to get money.

      I've only skimmed the article and watched one video, but AFAIK the oil price was high for good reason--we'd finally reached the point where demand pushes the price up very steeply--because the Saudis literally couldn't get the stuff out of the ground fast enough. For 6-12 months before the crash in October there were repeated attempts by Bush Jr. to get the Saudis to increase output, and they claimed they really couldn't, but about 6 months before the crash they upped output by as much as they could, about 25%. All figures and dates are off the top of my head and probably wildly off, but the picture is roughly correct. We effectively hit an oil crisis 12 months before the meltdown.

      The oil price lost 75% during the crash, and I believe that's because the Demand/Supply curve was so steep, when demand dropped during the economic meltdown, the Oil price dropped by an accelerated amount. I believe Matt Taibbi (RS writer) is trying to show that this drop was caused by GS going bankrupt and no longer being able to rip off the market. It is naive to believe that GS couldn't still game the market after they went bankrupt if they were before they went bankrupt.

      I have no idea whether there are speculator limiting rules in the US and world commodity markets, and have no idea whether Goldman Sachs got around those limits quietly. The fact that oil went "through 27 stages of ownership" before going to the gas pump means nothing frankly. That ownership of oil is wrapped in a complex series of financial products doesn't change anything. His article probably goes on to show that that's how GS got around commodity trading rules, but...

      I get the feeling that this is all conspiracy theory bullshit.

      He also said that GS was making stacks of cash by "grossly overreporting the value of Tech stocks," malevolently tricking the investing public into handing over their cash for trash. It's well known that all Tech stock is overpriced, and for good reason, people are willing to take a bigger gamble on Tech stock, we're in the Tech Age after all. Again, I feel this is just bullshit.

      Sorry for not RTFA fully, but the Rolling Stone article is off topic anyway.

      --
      Damn, I already moderated this topic. Now I'll have to log in with my sock puppet to comment.
    7. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by ocularDeathRay · · Score: 1

      Warren Buffet trades derivatives for Berkshire Hathaway... He has placed well publicized bets in the options markets. These are not small trades, or hedging positions, they are HUGE collections of options contracts.

      --
      Obama is a twitter sock puppet
    8. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by jnnnnn · · Score: 1

      It seems to me the US is going the same way as Soviet Russia.

      In the US, corruption kills you?

    9. Re:Rolling Stone alleges Goldman Sachs corrupts... by jrade · · Score: 1

      ...There's a slight difference.

      Not that much...only a few zeros

      --

      Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at Sig.setCleverSig(Sig.java:42)
  52. How to stop the corruption: by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 0, Troll

    The laws of the U.S. government should not allow a trading market designed in such a way that proprietary source code gives an advantage.

    1. Re:How to stop the corruption: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim? If Goldman Sachs was the first one to write it, they shouldn't have to give it to anyone.

      This has nothing to do with any of the GP's claims either.

  53. Why valuable? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

    Why is it so valuable? It most likely takes decisions based on random distributions. I can do that, too. Can I get a 100 million bonus?

  54. Sorry, I don't have time now. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    "Are you referring to the repeal of Glass-Steagall?"

    No. It was a lot more subtle than that.

    I don't have time now to find references. Maybe later.

    1. Re:Sorry, I don't have time now. by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      If you had time to reference it then, you have time to reference it now. At least give me the legislation name. I'll go look at it if I feel the need.

      ps- Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to learn something I don't know yet...

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  55. What's the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A measly 32MB of code leaked, which could have valuable algorithms.

    A ex-employee walks over to bank B on promise of $$$ and has all the algorithms in his head.

  56. Re:Why should Goldman Sachs have an unfair advanta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Why should Goldman Sachs be allowed to take money from people who don't have the same time or equipment?

    If you can't afford to play, don't.

  57. He of little knowledge!!!! by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

    What if having the code allowed you to analyse it for ways to game the system?

    Dood, don't you get it?? The system has been gamed for some time and is ever increasing in being gamed! Goldman Sachs (and other members of the bankster cartel) does mass speculation on the oil/energy futures market through the exchange they founded with Morgan Stanley and the oil cartel: ICE (InterContinental Exchange), as well as the precious metals market (along with JPMorgan Chase & Morgan Stanley, et al.), soft commodities market and on and on.....

    With the new so-called "cap-and-trade" being gamed for expanding the derivatives and securitication market for futures in carbon offsets and carbon dioxide emissions allowances, the GS code is the final alchemy. (And the possibilities for entirely new forms of speculation between emissions/carbon offsets AND oil/energy futures is simply mind boggling!)

    As far as gaming, one need only look at the outline for this anti-global warming legislation (cap-and-trade) and how it's being handled: via ICE US Trust (which is owned by ICE and Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase along with other banksters) and the Chicago Climate Exchange (which is owned by ICE) and utilizing the DTCC (majority owned by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley & JPMorgan Chase). And those derivatives and swaps will be "priced" by ICE Trust and Markit Group (which was originally financed by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and BofA). And to review, ICE is owned by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and the oil cartel.

    Beginning to see the big picture??????

  58. Re:Why should Goldman Sachs have an unfair advanta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The easy answer is to close the market, or to limit anyone to two trades per day (or one trade an hour, or something like that), but that will likely not fly.

    The easiest answer would be for everyone to wise up and pull all their money out of the market.

    I'd like to see the banks keep playing if everyone else takes all their chips and goes home. We might even get back to a stable market instead of the "thing" that got created ever since the heyday of the Day Trader in the '90s. :/

  59. How much is already available publicly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the interesting parts of the book "My Life as a Quant" by Emanuel Derman was the part where he compares the culture at Goldman to the culture at Soloman. He basically says that when it would come time to publish financial models, theories, etc., at Goldman there was relatively little obfuscation compared to other firms. I wonder how much of the theory is already publicly available, just not in code form. Between the two, I would think the models/theory are the much more valuable part, but depending upon the quality of the code, it may not be that easy to understand what they were doing.

  60. Its the Mass Speculation by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

    No, you don't get it, guy, it's about the code for the mass speculation they've been doing. It's not about trading fraud - although speculation and naket short selling is supposed to be against the law (as if they exist in this plutocracy???). Thieves are ripping off the super-thieves.

  61. Grep the source for "Plunge Protection" ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, here's a paranoid idea.

    The real fear, and the reason that the government moved so quickly to try to get a lid on this, is that the Goldman program trading system probably contained Plunge Protection [tm] code, at the request of the government. The idea would be to use Goldman's massive program trading volume to either cause, or mask, intraday instability and achieve "up" closes on critical days, or around the release of critical numbers. That's the "proprietary" secret that can't get out, or the whole game is up.

  62. Germany? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet they're in Germany.

  63. Uses Neural Networks ? by cpu_fusion · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Found a post on ACM by someone with same name as the accused. Looked like a person with research background in Neural Networks. No idea if it is the same person, but it would be intriguing to me if Goldman Sachs was using neural networks for trading.

    One interesting facet: if two or more counterparties in a market had neural networks that were trained to coordinate and cooperate in ways that would violate trading rules (e.g. like bridge players sharing info through actions), would the company be liable if the neural networks had developed these exchanges by themselves? In other words, would it be an instrumentality for violating the law if it learned, on its own, to violate the law, and the programmers / administrators "had no idea" it was doing that?

    1. Re:Uses Neural Networks ? by RoboRay · · Score: 1

      Yes, they would be liable for violating the law. If you create a system capable of operating independently of human control, you are still obligated to ensure that it will operate within the law.

    2. Re:Uses Neural Networks ? by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

      Do you have any case/statute cites for that?

      (Not asking to be a dink, but out of curiosity.)

    3. Re:Uses Neural Networks ? by RoboRay · · Score: 1

      I don't think any such case history is really needed. Think about it. If I design and build a machine with a gun, a motion detector, and servos to pivot and elevate, set it up in my ex-wife's front yard, and it shoots her, would you expect me to be immune from murder charges?

  64. Maybe not the install, but gen'd code ... by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

    Let's assume GS's trading system uses learning algorithms to generate new rules. This is a very logical assumption unless you want developers tweaking the code year after year, day after day.

    In that case, it's not the code that generates the rules, nor the data it uses to generate the rules, nor the engine that runs the rules and interfaces the markets that is valuable: its the current state of the optimized rules themselves that has immediate exploitability by criminals.

    If you know GS's system is going to react to market behavior that does X by doing Y, then you can exploit that to make money off it to GS's detriment.

    And an interesting twist. The accused referred to the code as "open source." That might indicate that he thinks it isn't copyrighted. If the rules [code] were generated by software itself, such as a learning system, there is a colorable argument that there isn't the necessary quantum of authorship for copyright under U.S. law. Naturally this wouldn't encompass other claims, like those based in trade secrets, employment Ks, etc.

    To recap, the state of rules generated by the learning system would be far more valuable [and dangerous in enemy hands] than the underlying engine and database of historical data. In fact, those rules would be the crown jewels.

    I'd add the above is 100% pure speculation based on inferences and some expertise in the area. (No inside knowledge of GS.)

  65. And the 32MB amount is telling too, isn't it? by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

    Sorry to respond to myself, but to add ...

    32 MB seems like a nice sized "chunk" to be an image of an on-die cache.

    The size of the file is so conveniently close to a power of 2 to suggest to me that this is an image of RAM. (L2 cache?)

    Again, I'm suggesting that a snapshot of the core rules generated by a learning system would be more useful than the framework it would run on.

  66. The basic story is correct. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    The basic story is correct. I didn't have time to do more thorough research for better links.

    This is a better article, in some ways: US banks owe billions in pay, pensions to execs-WSJ. Quote: "For instance, nine banks paid out an estimated $50 billion in bonuses in 2007..." That's Billion, not million.

  67. The bankers certainly knew there would be a crash. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The rolling stone article is conspiracy drivel..."

    Thoughts:

    1) The linked article is not the article published on paper in Rolling Stone, although confusingly it has the same name.

    2) A Slashdot comment is not meant to be a complete discussion of anything. A Slashdot comment can alert you to the need to do further research.

    3) The actual Rolling Stone article in the paper edition only says things that have been reported elsewhere.

    4) The bankers certainly knew there would be a crash, and that they would profit from the crash, and that the crash would be very destructive to everyone else.

    5) Matt Taibbi's article, The 52 Funniest Things About The Upcoming Death of The Pope lacks any humor. It's just stupid. In number 26, he guesses that the pope lives, and he dies. The point of the article seems to be that the pope gets less respect now; a big difference from 50 years ago. But it's a terrible article.

    6) What is important is not what someone said, but the facts.

  68. It was market manipulation. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2, Informative

    During the time of the oil price increase, the supply of oil went up a small amount, and the demand went down by a tiny amount. There should have been a tiny price decrease.

    However it was accomplished, it was market manipulation. I don't have time to supply links now.

    1. Re:It was market manipulation. by Hynee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think it works like that, but I'm not an economist. I think the catch here was that the future price of the oil sitting in the ground went up massively, because there aren't any ways to increase the supply before it runs out. I believe articles like this Rolling Stone article peddle quasi-economic arguments, looking for correlations then asserting cause/effect without proving it.

      I have to make an errata of sorts, Goldman Sachs not only didn't go bankrupt they actually profited heavily from the crash in the subprime market... kind of takes the edge off half my comments.

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      Damn, I already moderated this topic. Now I'll have to log in with my sock puppet to comment.
    2. Re:It was market manipulation. by True+Grit · · Score: 1

      was that the future price of the oil sitting in the ground went up massively

      No, and the GP is wrong too.

      The important thing to remember about the oil "market" is that its a "futures" market, driven by medium to long term *speculation* going 6 months to a year out or beyond. Its driven (now) primarily by *fear*, because the market isn't just focused on crude oil, but the refined products derived from it (gasoline/heating oil), and there is a growing problem with both the supply of crude oil, and refinery capacity.

      Anything that impacts the flow of oil or the flow coming out of the world's refineries will cause jitters in the oil market. This is mainly because the supply/demand ratio was extremely tight just before the global recession, the world was very near to consuming it faster than it could pump it out of the ground and refine it (some countries also have tight refining capacity - like the US).

      The recession took a lot of the pressure off, but despite the world not having recovered yet from the recession, oil is creeping back up. Why? Because, as soon as the world economy gets rolling again, we'll hit the Peak Oil wall head-on, where consumption begins to consistently out-pace supply... and the oil traders *know* this is coming, thats why they're perpetually nervous about any kind of disruption to global oil supply.

      Before the recession, we were on the way to $200 a barrel oil, even though the supply was still (somewhat) ahead of demand. The reason the price was escalating then was because the oil traders saw what was coming - they were looking a year or so into the future and saw the shadow of that wall looming...

  69. GS secrets revealed on /. right here, right now by jackspenn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Listen I am going to drop a huge bombshell on how GS makes their money and it has nothing to do with source code or trading. Ready?

    Step 1: Buy Republicans
    Step 2: Hedge investment and buy Democrats
    Step 3: Create illusion that there is a difference between above to avoid discovery that you own both. Get people to vote for their party each election, one thing you don't want is for people catch on and vote against all incumbents which you are heavily invested into and who have been there long enough to feel comfortable bending rules or outright breaking law.
    Step 4: Make money trading stocks, bonds and commodities using leverage from 1,2,3 and 5.
    Step 5: If nobody to buy, have former GS executives run. See Corzine - D - NJ Governor and Paulson - R - Former Treasury Secretary.
    Step 6: If GS fails to make money on step 4, get politicians to bail you out indirectly to avoid blame. For example get them to bailout your failing investment AIG, then have AIG kick you back the $20 billion you gave them. Sure take direct bailout money, but give it back should public try to regulate GS salaries or demand transparency.
    Step 7: Act like you are better at making money because you are really really smart and it has nothing to do with the fact that you are in a position to change the rules. Look down on little people and small businesses trying to compete while playing by rules.
    Step 8: As if making money trading actual items by influencing markets/politicians isn't profitable enough, kick it up a notch and make money trading ... wait for it ... nothing. Call it Cap 'n Trade, make people think it will help environment, knowing that in truth it will not cut back on global pollution, that it will ship manufacturing to other countries along with jobs. Tell people it doesn't tax them and will create jobs (I mean with all the money GS execs will be making they can higher more gophers to get them coffee and they will be going out in NYC to eat expensive meals and that will employ aspiring actors ... I mean waiters). Don't tax/charge people directly just tax companies, services and products the people cannot do without. When prices go up on those things blame the very companies that GS and US federal government are robbing with a pen (guns are so small time) and say it is their ... wait for it ... "selfish greed". Have system in place so the shares of nothing you are trading become more and more rare over time to ensure you get larger and larger pay outs and hope US public is to stupid to vote out every paid politician you had in your pocket to vote for it. Rememeber avoid and deflect, blame the other side.
    Step 9: If questioned or called out, act as if there is no way the person pointing out truth could possibly understand the complexities of the system and therefore and unqualified to comment. If person is in energy production label them greedy capitalistic ways". If somebody from any other sector of economy comes forward to detail insanity of scam, I mean legislation, label them a racist or proclaim they don't care about ... wait for it ... "the children". If person is using slashdot then mod them -1 TROLL.
    Step 10: Goto Step 1.

    --
    Respect the Constitution
  70. Vampire squid? by lennier · · Score: 1

    Now there's a whole new genre of romance novels begging to be written.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  71. Me, I'd rather know... by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

    ....not the source code, but the triggering events and the nature of all inputs. I'm more curious to know if the source code is really just one big bloat that only serves to cover GS themselves' gaming of the system.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  72. Mirror? by mfh · · Score: 1

    Anyone got a mirror for that GSachs code? I need some jet fuel and a bunch of dolphin-safe tattoo ink. I need tattooed dolphins for my lagoon, inside my volcano hideaway -- and the stock market hasn't been helping this lair construction very much thanks to the competition and the high priced assassinations required to not lose everything I've worked so hard towards.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  73. Re: Detecting *their* trading system in use? by HydroPhonic · · Score: 1

    The idea wouldn't be for someone else to use "their" trading system, though. It would about finding its conjugate-the system which would be able to perfectly game against the GS system, manipulate it, abuse it, take $$ from it, then vanish.

  74. Rumored: NYSE to keep program trading private by whovian · · Score: 1

    The New York Stock Exchange quietly announced last week that it would end its practice of requiring companies to report all their program trading -- a move that helps shield large investment banks, particularly Goldman Sachs, from public scrutiny.

    The new rule means the public will no longer be able to tell if large investment banks are manipulating the stock market for their own gain, says Matt Taibbi, the journalist whose Rolling Stone article on Goldman Sachsâ(TM) role in asset bubbles over the past century has rocked the financial world.

    According to previous NYSE rules, any company that carried out program trading -- essentially, large computer-automated trades worth more than $1 million -- had to report the trades to the NYSE, which then made the information publicly available.

    But, under new regulations (PDF) published last week, that requirement has been removed.

    "The NYSE announced that it will no longer be releasing its weekly program trading data," Taibbi wrote in a blog posting. "This is quiet obviously a move designed to make it even more impossible to track whatâ(TM)s going on in the NYSE and shield, in particular, Goldman Sachs."

    Taibbi argues that the move is designed to protect investment banks from bloggers who are exposing the companiesâ(TM) stock market manipulations. Goldman Sachs is singled out because the investment bankâ(TM)s share of principal NYSE trading has gone from 27 percent at the end of 2008 to fully 50 percent of trades in recent months.

    Blogs such as Zero Hedge have been using NYSE data to argue that Goldman Sachs now has an almost unfettered ability to control stock prices.

    Source: Alternet

    --
    To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
  75. Why do you want to know? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    "If you had time to reference it then, you have time to reference it now." That's not motivating to me. It seems impolite.

    It's crazy, I think that the events are not common knowledge.

    Why do you want to know? What research are you doing?

    I just don't have time now. All I remember immediately is that Glass-Steagull was not particularly objectionable. The corruption was accomplished using several rule changes that were kept quite secret.

    1. Re:Why do you want to know? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I thought so. My research is for personal purposes. Trying to understand events. Sorry to waste your time.

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      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.