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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
I am an engineer (ME), my wife is an engineer (EE).
We have been married for 15 years now and things are good.
1) I dated non engineers and let me tell you those relationships were more "active" in every sense of the word. But you actually tire of it quite quickly because you are constantly trying to figure things out.
2) The relationship becomes pretty constant since both you are pretty constant people. That is a good thing, but as my wife says NEVER take it for granted. Appreciate each and every day.
3) Be there for each other. I seriously mean this one. Be there for the other person through it all. EVEN if your logic says that the other person is wrong.
4) Support the other person. My wife is a director level manager and I have worked for her. Here in Europe some look at that as being a "wuss". After meeting me people quickly realize I am not a wuss, but there is a stigma associated with it. Though times are changing...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Small piece of advice.
We geeks find it hard to "get in touch with our emotional side" sometimes...
Oh my...
The "alpha-male jocks" mentioned in TFA aren't stupid, they're socially so successful because of their high social/emotional intelligence.
(Some) women may think that what they want in a man is someone who is 'in touch with his emotional side', essentially a girly-man, but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men.
You have to be someone she can look up to. In this day and age this doesn't have to mean huge amounts of muscle bulk. She might look up to you for your leet skillz, your artistic prowess or your meticulously cultivated good manners, whatever, but if that element is missing, but being all touchy-feely is not a plus, but something that has to be compensated for.
This also explains why highly successful women so often end up single, or go through divorce after divorce. The selection of men they can look up to is much smaller, and in that segment they have to compete with not very successful but seriously good looking girls.
As a geek couple, I can say after 12 + years there are certain real pitfalls.
This may vary for you, but here's a few key items:
Your intellect can be very clever at making up lies, hiding what you really feel, and it basically just gets in the way. This hiding and dissociation from your feelings can take different forms. If you're the kind of guy who tries to be nice and tries to be a good partner, then you may find that you hide your natural anger and hide your resentments. Eventually these will bite you hard. If on the other hand you or your partner are basically quite selfish, lack empathy, and lack a basic goodness, then she or you can do the most outrageously selfish things but rationalize them away using your clever intellect. (I know one woman who would cry "sexist" if you said she was behaving badly, on the basis that had she been a man, you'd have complemented him for being "strong" (some people are educated beyond their intelligence)).
So feeling is very important. But what's also important, and this is beyond therapy now... what is also becoming more important for modern couples is that, once you both accept each other as equals (you're not stereotypical gender roles from the 50s), once you accept each other as equals, doesn't mean you are the same. You still have to be a man and she still has to be a woman, otherwise there is no difference between you, and there is no polarity of attraction, and sex and romance will disappear completely. See David Deida's books for a challenging and difficult slap in the face on this subject. Your woman may often act crazy--she is testing you and she wants to feel your masculine ability to be a solidly dependable rock who can stand there and still love her. Once she knows she can trust you to be a rock, she can relax into her feminine side and blossom and be sexy. And this little drama will repeat itself over and over. If you don't want that, get a best friend and forget about romantic partners.
You know, some of us are actually married (with a woman, shock, horror!) and we passed though lots of those pitfalls.
But back on subject. I suggest some NLP training - it's a good stuff if you want to understand other people. I know, lots of you will not agree, but I still believe that the basic parts of it are very useful, relationship wise. Best is that those not only apply to marriage but all kind of relationships.
Then I'd get into some books/audiobooks about negotiations. Only Win-Win stuff. Surprisingly helpful ;)
You can also try to get stuff like "Laugh your way to better marriage". It floats somewhere on intertubes.
Go to elbitz.net and search there. They have lots of cool material. Just stop your urge when you get there and build the ratio as it's quite hard later ;)
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
I'd disagree with you on those bachelor parties, but then again, only very few people have such a relentless grip on their jealousy as me and my wife do.
I will agree with the honesty, though. You made a good point: Demand it of your partner. In fact, you might have to TEACH it to her in the first place. I married a geek girl, not the cheerleader-type and she still had to be taught that yes, it is okay to tell me the truth, no it will not result in a fight and yes, I do want to hear her opinion.
My wife has had to deal with a mother who thought she had to be like her in order to be an acceptable child. You can imagine how puberty impacted on that relationship, though, so this situation might not necessarily apply to other women. Do not forget, though, that the stereotypes of a beer drinking, football addicted husband and the constantly frustrated and nagging wife come from somewhere. They are so prevalent in our media that, it seems, a lot of girls think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
(Some) women may think that what they want in a man is someone who is 'in touch with his emotional side', essentially a girly-man, but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men.
You have to be someone she can look up to. In this day and age this doesn't have to mean huge amounts of muscle bulk. She might look up to you for your leet skillz, your artistic prowess or your meticulously cultivated good manners, whatever, but if that element is missing, but being all touchy-feely is not a plus, but something that has to be compensated for.
This also explains why highly successful women so often end up single, or go through divorce after divorce. The selection of men they can look up to is much smaller, and in that segment they have to compete with not very successful but seriously good looking girls.
This poster is on to something. I teach a class for engaged and newlywed couples at my church. The poster is, perhaps unknowingly, articulating the biblical instructions for husbands and wives. Wives are to respect their husbands. If he is not a muscular jock (which is not a great reason for respect), she should find reason to respect him (his intelligence, kindness, love for others, character, work ethic, etc.). Husbands are instructed to love their wives sacrificially. The Apostle Paul wrote that a husband's love should be like that of Jesus Christ, who died for His bride (the church, who doesn't deserve His love).
Advice for the original poster: love your wife sacrificially, even when she doesn't deserve it. Become wife-centered rather than self-centered, focusing on her needs. If you do that, your wife will respect you. Marital harmony will ensue.
Life is short; think quickly.
The question is not about getting girls it is about making living together work. Also your story is bullshit. My father always had lots of women he was not socially intelligent or successful at all he was scary (aggressive drinking manipulative). Staying married to them was a completely different story.
I've had (... still have ... in a way such relationships never die) a 16 year relationship with a woman. We have one daughter, 11 years old. My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship. And on this aspect of issues i'd like to quote this:
"People who are intensly in Love often forget that for it to last you need to actively maintain it. Emotionally and in your attitude towards your significant other."
Every single day. Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted. Maybe you or your SO is a federal employee and will have to move to a different state whenever superiors say so and there only are exemptions for married couples. However, what you should do - both of you, at the same time and in the same intensity - is treat each other as if you weren't married. Every day. That's easiest to ensure if you simply don't marry or do so with a thick contract that seals details.
Me and her, we've each had our share of affairs on the side lately and we actually console each other when things get rough or someone of us is lovesick about it. However, we have never lost our respect for one another. I went through a solid stretch of of near flat-out neglegt by her for years, and simply the fact that I knew I could walk out of the door at any time had me stick with her and my responsibilies towards our daughter. If you marry, it should be under circumstances under which you both feel comfortable with your self and are sure that you can give what the other expects of you and what is required to make the others life better than if they were alone.
And if you, after all this advice, *do* marry, *don't* spend huge amounts of money on the wedding. Marry, maybe invite your best friends and families to a dinner or party or something, but don't go into huge dept just for a wedding. The positive effect (bragging rights, etc.) wears of quickly and if that's all your doing it for it's pointless to do anyway. And you get the best marriage effect ('My wife' / 'my husband') anyways.
Congratulations on finding the love of your life and my best wishes to both of you!
My 2 Euros.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, I do this and go with her to the booth aswell (which admittedly felt a bit weird at the first times specially if someone looked what they're doing, but ohwell). High heels and shoes and such is hard to comment, other clothing easier tho. But seeing some boobies in the booth helps make the time more enjoyable :)
I couldn't disagree with this more. My wife and I are both intelligent, sensitive, caring, dedicated people. But after being married for 5 years, we were seriously ready to throw in the towel if something didn't change. I'd share with people occasionally that we were having some trouble, and people would ask what it was about; my response was, "Honestly, we don't really know. If we understood what the problem was, it wouldn't be happening."
By a random chance (aka God's intervention), we were put onto the work of a guy named John Gottman. John Gottman actually did research on all kinds of couples. He'd wire them up with electrodes to measure their sweat and heart rates, and record their conversations. They even had an apartment rigged up where people would live for 2 days, and record their interactions. He then correlated what he saw with with people's marital satisfaction rating, and with the success of their marriage down the road. He got good enough that after listening to a 15-minute conversation about a hot-spot in their marriage, he could predict with 95% accuracy whether a couple would be divorced in 5 years' time.
We picked up his books, and a lot of what he described I saw in our marriage. Suddenly things aren't so mysterious anymore. We're definitely not out of the woods yet; 5 years of pain and bad habits don't just disappear. But now at least I feel like I have an idea what's going wrong, and even better, I have an idea of what "going right" looks like; and the "going right" is backed by real research, not just "This is my theory". I'd definitely recommend his books to anyone who ever wants to have a long-term relationship, even if it's pretty good right now.
Recommended books:
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if you're alpha-male-jock or whatever other type. What matters is how well you accept one another and how you deal with problems together. Most of the time, it is the woman that finds the man intolerable and not the other way around. (Yeah, there are exceptions of course) Usually, it's something that a guy does or doesn't do that leads to things becoming rocky and unstable at home and it's largely the weakness of the woman who quite literally chooses to not accept it as part of who you are. (There are also exceptions to this as well... should she accept sex, drug or gambling addiction? hell no! should she accept gaming addiction? hell no! should she accept failing to pay the bills because you spent money on geek crap? hell no!)
So putting aside serious detrimental behaviors, if she can't accept that you're a slob or a neat freak, then you shouldn't get married. And let's be clear on what the whole idea of marriage means in the first place. Don't consult a religious leader. Consult a divorce lawyer! If anyone knows what a marriage is REALLY all about, it's an experienced divorce attorney who has assisted in disassembling a marriage and all the things connecting the two people together in a tight relationship. You may find that in this day and age, that marriage is completely obsolete! A limited power of attorney, as it turns out, is all anyone needs unless one of you is from a foreign country. (I firmly believe that marriage is a legally binding agreement that can and will be used against you in a court of law.)
I have also found that some of the most serious sources of troubled marriages stem from the misconceptions of what marriage is or what function it serves. You'd both better be on the same page when it comes to the preconceptions about marriage religiously, socially and legally because they will lead to stupid friction moving forward. Personally, I have no religion and neither does my wife. That takes out 1/3rd of that problem from the start. Socially, we are on the same page. Legally, I'm fully aware since I have been divorced before (and came out on top).
Some people need to not be married at all. Both of you need to do some hard personality analyses on the matter. How do you balance "self vs relationship"? How do you balance "self vs family"? How do you balance "self vs child/ren"? If you favor yourself too much and are mature enough to admit it to yourself, then you probably shouldn't get married at all.
People too often think of marriage in terms of 30 minute situation comedies or two hour romantic comedies. They also too often think of it as a religious and/or social mandate. Get those misconceptions cleared up before you sign those legal documents. I'd say "read the fine print" but there is no fine print!!! Marriage is a bizarre legal construct that is not defined in any one single law anywhere. It's all over the place and frankly most written law is about divorcing if that tells you anything at all.
And even if you have all of the above completely covered, be prepared for changes that occur down the road. Dynamics and roles shift and change... sometimes abruptly and sometimes so gradually, you don't notice. Be flexible and know your limits so that you don't break when things go too far.
I'll tell you what works for me -- I'm ridiculously easy to get along with. I know myself well and have little trouble explaining myself to others while at the same time, I am very accepting of others. It also helps that it is accepted by my wife that I TRULY suck at remembering dates and what day it is. Having forgotten my own birthday on several occasions was all the proof she needed that I am an honestly a forgetful person when it comes to things like that. (And it's not like my birthday would be hard to remember. It's the first of a month! I'm just not that guy.)
Oh yeah, and don't make "the marriage" the thing... not EVER. If "the marriage" was the thing, then you're both chasing something that doesn'
6) Let her do things her way, even if suboptimal. When I heat a can of soup, I pour the can into the soup bowl and microwave for a few minutes. My wife insists on heating the soup in a saucepan, then ladling it into a bowl, thereby using more energy to cook and clean (and serve less soup). I've tried explaining the physics involved but it doesn't take. Live with it.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H. L. Mencken
What, your grandfather read Robert Heinlein?
"In a family argument, if it turns out you are right--apologize at once!"
Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
I was going to make this same comment. When you read those books pretend that the word "sports" says "favourite hobby." Even if you have the same hobby as your wife, if you're doing it alone all the time it will only harm your marriage.
My ex-wife used to come home and play the nintendo ds all night. It wasn't sports, but it was her hobby. The time we could have spent together talking and working on our relationship was spent with her face and attention glued firmly to something else.
The judge signs our divorce papers today at noon. Out of spite, I kept the DS even though she got to keep all my money and can just go buy her own.
My advice:
*The 5 love languages is a great book for new marriages. You'll learn a lot about your spouse. It will take an honest effort to put what you learn to good use, but it can work wonders.
*If either of you even think about the Fireproof movie and doing the "love dare," just don't. "sports jocks" and "cheerleaders" go for that, but all the nerds I know who's spouses tried it saw right through it and resented them using a manual...
*Whatever you both like doing together, do it often. Make it an important time for the two of you to spend together.
*Make friends with other married couples. Go out together. Enjoy being with your spouse and your friends.
--Forest C. Adcock--
First off, being "in love" with someone is a pretty messed up mental state which often blinds people to the faults and realities of the other person. This state of being "in love" can last a couple of years - though it does last far longer for some folks. The biology of this emotional state is to get two people who would otherwise not hook up, to have kids. Essentially, love blinds you to the faults (large and small) of the other person so that you are willing to make an eternal commitment to the other person.
1. Sex in relationships often diminishes regardless of the honesty of the people involved mostly because the female does not have the same sex drive as the male. Other factors contribute to the decrease in sex: medications (such as the birth control pill, anxiety medications, etc.), time stresses (got married and now you are both focuses on earning money to pay for the mortagage), and the negative emotional baggage that builds up over time. Sure, you love her now, and the fact that she won't do the dishes until the last dish is dirty doesn't bother you, but it will bother you a lot three years from now when you come home from an exhausting day of work related hell to find that all of the fucking cups are dirty. You won't get confrontational about it then because you are TIRED and it's a small thing. But sand is a small thing, and it can irritate the hell out of you. And after you have kids. . . sex is a challenge because nothing on earth kills the moment like the sound of your offspring opening the door for . . . a drink of water.
2. Weight gain happens because your metabolism changes and as you get older the work you do becomes less and less physical.
3. You money stops going where you wanted it to go when you were single. That causes resentment because no matter what, marriage does not change WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU LIKE. Don't expect her to change either. The only thing that changes people of either sex is trauma - emotional, physical trauma.
4. Relatives . . . mine are strange and insufferable. I like my in laws better.
5. My spouse drives the vehicle I don't want to drive. Right now, I drive the new truck and she drives the old civic. When we bought the SUV, she drove it, because I liked driving the protege better, of course she wanted to drive it.
6. Neglecting your spouse because you play HALO, or WOW 80 hours per week will cause just as much trouble as if you spent 90 hours per week working came home and watched football. It's the not being fair to the other person and forgetting that they need you to participate in their emotional well being part that cause the trouble.
7. Yes, she will ask. You will lie about it.
8. Learn to cook well.
9 & 10. Love is blinding so you'd better be sure she's being honest. If she likes to do the same things you like to do then you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, you'll need some win-win negotiations.
Honesty is the most important factor. If a person is brave enough to be honest with you, and very much wants to be a part of your life and vice versa, great. Beware though, the deceiver, because like a cheater, a liar keeps on lying.
Been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Wait, what? Christ died for the church? I sincerely hope you're just trolling... or being sarcastic or whatever.
Huh? Ephesians 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."
The christian ideas about marriage are sick to the core and should never be applied without liberal amounts of interpretation.
Huh? "Christian ideas about marriage" like, "Husbands, love your wives?" Wow. Nasty stuff.
Fact is, the christian interpretation of the bible is very heartless and uncaring, no matter the words they spout.
Huh? "Love your neighbor as yourself." Oh, the cruelty. Dude, are you serious, or are you just spewing anti-Christian hate?
Love your wife sacrificially, even when she DOES NOT deserve it? I know that christians tend to sound like crackpots, but how in the seven levels of hell do you expect this to work?
Ah! A great question! The answer is not that difficult. Jesus Christ, the eternal God who became a Man, died in my place and suffered the just penalty for my sin---and I don't deserve it! Because Jesus Christ is able to forgive me when I don't deserve it, I am able to forgive my wife of 15+ years, regardless of whether she deserves my love. I forgive as I have been forgiven.
Do you really think your it-girl wife will respect you for lying at her feet whimpering for attention like a dog, never saying a word while she throws your money out the window? This is the stuff sitcom-stereotypes are made of and you want to tell us this somehow works?
No, I don't think a groveling, whimpering man would be respected (and I do not grovel or whimper), nor did I suggest that the OP become such a man. What I told him to do was to respond in love and kindness when his wife is not acting loving. Oh, it's far easier to just respond in kind, but to respond with kindness? That's tough, but without it a marriage is doomed.
Marital harmony will ensue... It isn't harmony, when half of the involved people have to completely bend over backwards for the other in the hopes that this person will take pity on them for it...
It is not in hopes of receiving pity. It is out of love for my wife that I bend over backwards for her. If she needed my heart for a transplant, I would gladly give it to her. I love her. That's not an emotional feeling. It's an action.
Man, you are a seriously fucked up individual...
Yes, but not for the reason(s) you cited. As broken and fractured as I am, God still became a man and still offered Himself as a substitute for me, and still bore my sins in His body on the cross. That's love.
Life is short; think quickly.