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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Being in a similar situation, I'd also be interested in hearing suggestions from married geeks with more XP
It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Small piece of advice.
We geeks find it hard to "get in touch with our emotional side" sometimes...
Concentrate on enjoying each other's company. Enjoy being with each other. Stop trying to analyse the hell out of it and just ENJOY it :)
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
Replace every passage in all the marriage books you've read where it says "Sports" - with "gaming/Linux geek" and you'll have exactly the same result.
However, don't believe everything you read! :-)
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
.: Max Romantschuk
I am an engineer (ME), my wife is an engineer (EE).
We have been married for 15 years now and things are good.
1) I dated non engineers and let me tell you those relationships were more "active" in every sense of the word. But you actually tire of it quite quickly because you are constantly trying to figure things out.
2) The relationship becomes pretty constant since both you are pretty constant people. That is a good thing, but as my wife says NEVER take it for granted. Appreciate each and every day.
3) Be there for each other. I seriously mean this one. Be there for the other person through it all. EVEN if your logic says that the other person is wrong.
4) Support the other person. My wife is a director level manager and I have worked for her. Here in Europe some look at that as being a "wuss". After meeting me people quickly realize I am not a wuss, but there is a stigma associated with it. Though times are changing...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
What good will that do?
0, 1, 10 ...
I'd guess that you being a Linux geek and she being a literary geek won't have much effect on your marriage. Other things, such as what you each expect from marriage, how you communicate (or whether you communicate at all!), how considerate each is of the other's needs, and so on, are more important. Forget the marriage/relationship books. They're pretty useless, and for the most part sell well because lots of people think that there can be manual for everything. It's not true; some things you just have to learn by doing. I've been happily married for 15 years. It takes patience and work to get through rough spots, but the good times make all that more than worth it.
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
...it could all end in a Geek Tragedy! I'm sorry...
Someone asking marriage advice on Slashdot (of all places) -> who else can we ask something important? Mmm, probably asking George Bush about achieving world peace!
A picture is worth exactly 1024 words.
I agree completely, throw the books away!
I think people like stereotypes and consequently try to change themselves so they can fit into them - not the other way around. For example, if most successful relationship books deal with caveman-style guys and submissive girls, that's because many people draw comfort from these role models, it's something that they can "aspire" to and those stereotypes can be used to explain away anything and everything that comes up in regard to social issues (no actual insight required).
That's the reason why most people always try to become more jock-like or cheerleader-like as the case may be. If you have typical jock/cheerleader problems, your relationship is perceived as normal, you can then go out and buy books that tell you "it's normal because guys are always that way and girls are always that way", most of them purporting (without a real scientific basis of course) that's how it's always been and evolution forces us to be jocks and cheerleaders anyway. On the other hand, if you have real and deeply special problems, you're perceived as a freak and your issues are quickly attributed to failure to be a real jock or cheerleader.
So you basically have to decide if you want to be a conformist who is striving to be a stereotype or whether you want to be yourself. Either way you'll be paying dearly for the path you choose.
As a geek couple, I can say after 12 + years there are certain real pitfalls.
This may vary for you, but here's a few key items:
Your intellect can be very clever at making up lies, hiding what you really feel, and it basically just gets in the way. This hiding and dissociation from your feelings can take different forms. If you're the kind of guy who tries to be nice and tries to be a good partner, then you may find that you hide your natural anger and hide your resentments. Eventually these will bite you hard. If on the other hand you or your partner are basically quite selfish, lack empathy, and lack a basic goodness, then she or you can do the most outrageously selfish things but rationalize them away using your clever intellect. (I know one woman who would cry "sexist" if you said she was behaving badly, on the basis that had she been a man, you'd have complemented him for being "strong" (some people are educated beyond their intelligence)).
So feeling is very important. But what's also important, and this is beyond therapy now... what is also becoming more important for modern couples is that, once you both accept each other as equals (you're not stereotypical gender roles from the 50s), once you accept each other as equals, doesn't mean you are the same. You still have to be a man and she still has to be a woman, otherwise there is no difference between you, and there is no polarity of attraction, and sex and romance will disappear completely. See David Deida's books for a challenging and difficult slap in the face on this subject. Your woman may often act crazy--she is testing you and she wants to feel your masculine ability to be a solidly dependable rock who can stand there and still love her. Once she knows she can trust you to be a rock, she can relax into her feminine side and blossom and be sexy. And this little drama will repeat itself over and over. If you don't want that, get a best friend and forget about romantic partners.
Dear OP,
clearly you are not the target audience of those books, throw them out. You two are the only ones who know enough about your relationship to suggest anything, but if your mindset is having fun walking through life together, you'll be better off than thinking about all the things that go wrong. You mostly find what you're looking for, you know.
And if you let it get boring, it will be boring, and probably short, too.
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
You know, some of us are actually married (with a woman, shock, horror!) and we passed though lots of those pitfalls.
But back on subject. I suggest some NLP training - it's a good stuff if you want to understand other people. I know, lots of you will not agree, but I still believe that the basic parts of it are very useful, relationship wise. Best is that those not only apply to marriage but all kind of relationships.
Then I'd get into some books/audiobooks about negotiations. Only Win-Win stuff. Surprisingly helpful ;)
You can also try to get stuff like "Laugh your way to better marriage". It floats somewhere on intertubes.
Go to elbitz.net and search there. They have lots of cool material. Just stop your urge when you get there and build the ratio as it's quite hard later ;)
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
Give her looks a rating out of 10. Then post that on the fridge. Encourage her to lose some weight to increase her rating. If she objects compare it to levelling up on WoW.
Name her breasts Han and Chewie.
Tell her that everytime you put on your Wedding Ring you hear the voice of Sauron calling you to do evil.
Inform her that her feet are as cute as a hobbits.
When times are rough tell her that you wish you took the blue pill.
Remind her that you are a true geek by not having sex with her unless she accepts money first.
Tell her you hope you both have a kid like Jake Lloyd one day.
I'd disagree with you on those bachelor parties, but then again, only very few people have such a relentless grip on their jealousy as me and my wife do.
I will agree with the honesty, though. You made a good point: Demand it of your partner. In fact, you might have to TEACH it to her in the first place. I married a geek girl, not the cheerleader-type and she still had to be taught that yes, it is okay to tell me the truth, no it will not result in a fight and yes, I do want to hear her opinion.
My wife has had to deal with a mother who thought she had to be like her in order to be an acceptable child. You can imagine how puberty impacted on that relationship, though, so this situation might not necessarily apply to other women. Do not forget, though, that the stereotypes of a beer drinking, football addicted husband and the constantly frustrated and nagging wife come from somewhere. They are so prevalent in our media that, it seems, a lot of girls think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
I've had (... still have ... in a way such relationships never die) a 16 year relationship with a woman. We have one daughter, 11 years old. My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship. And on this aspect of issues i'd like to quote this:
"People who are intensly in Love often forget that for it to last you need to actively maintain it. Emotionally and in your attitude towards your significant other."
Every single day. Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted. Maybe you or your SO is a federal employee and will have to move to a different state whenever superiors say so and there only are exemptions for married couples. However, what you should do - both of you, at the same time and in the same intensity - is treat each other as if you weren't married. Every day. That's easiest to ensure if you simply don't marry or do so with a thick contract that seals details.
Me and her, we've each had our share of affairs on the side lately and we actually console each other when things get rough or someone of us is lovesick about it. However, we have never lost our respect for one another. I went through a solid stretch of of near flat-out neglegt by her for years, and simply the fact that I knew I could walk out of the door at any time had me stick with her and my responsibilies towards our daughter. If you marry, it should be under circumstances under which you both feel comfortable with your self and are sure that you can give what the other expects of you and what is required to make the others life better than if they were alone.
And if you, after all this advice, *do* marry, *don't* spend huge amounts of money on the wedding. Marry, maybe invite your best friends and families to a dinner or party or something, but don't go into huge dept just for a wedding. The positive effect (bragging rights, etc.) wears of quickly and if that's all your doing it for it's pointless to do anyway. And you get the best marriage effect ('My wife' / 'my husband') anyways.
Congratulations on finding the love of your life and my best wishes to both of you!
My 2 Euros.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Make her rewrite the Linux Documentation !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
So called "geeks" are no different to anyone else. So like anyone else your marriage will be a success if:
1) Your wife has no other man but yourself
2) Your wife should not encourage any other man to make love to her, or kiss or caress her
3) Your wife should remember to kiss and caress you, to honour and obey you and obey your every whim and fancy seven days a week and twice on sundays
4) Your wife should honour your name so that all other women will honour it also
5) Your wife should no provoke you to anger
6) Your wife should not search your pockets or night or annoy you with her hearsays
7) If you are walking in the street with another woman your wife should not shout at you in the street but wait intelligently until you get home where the matter can be dealt with decently.
8) Your wife should neither drink nor smoke
9) Your wife should not commit adultery since if she does she risks forcing you to murder her
10) Your wife should not covet her neighbours dress, nor her shoes, nor her bureau, nor her bed nor her hat nor anything which is hers. Your wife should not call your attention to anything which may be for sale in any stores since you will provide her with everything she needs for her daily purpose.
Clearly you don't understand sandwiches at all otherwise you would not have said that. Come back when you can demonstrate that you know what a sandwich actually is.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
Small lies, it's what holds relationships together.
I married my favorite geek 19 years ago, and here are a few of the things I've learned:
Be considerate.
Shut up and listen when she wants to talk.
Respect her opinion.
She's smarter than you are, get over it.
It's more important to be friends than lovers (sex is fun, but no foundation for a marriage).
Give her the remote before you fall asleep.
If she prefers Windows (or a Mac or a different Linux distro), let it go.
Very few things are important enough to argue with your spouse about.
Money is the biggest marital stressor, to avoid this, live well within your means.
Settle disagreements quickly.
Even geeky girls like tasteful jewelry.
Make time to take her out on a date at least once a week.
Don't be an insensitive clod.
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, I do this and go with her to the booth aswell (which admittedly felt a bit weird at the first times specially if someone looked what they're doing, but ohwell). High heels and shoes and such is hard to comment, other clothing easier tho. But seeing some boobies in the booth helps make the time more enjoyable :)
NLP?? I certainly disagree.
I had this stuff inflicted on me during a management course recently. Being the nerdy little science geek I am I went out to investigate it and discovered the same thing that you will discover if you go out and spend some serious time looking through its underlying claims - that is, that it's mostly pulled directly out of someone's plump rectum. I didn't just take my own word for it - I went to the psychology dept at my local university and checked my findings with senior research staff.
That's not to say that learning to listen isn't incredibly important to keeping a marriage going, and it probably is true that approaching that via NLP, bullshit as the specifics are, is still better than not bothering to get the skillset at all. However, it would probably be more healthy to avoid the obfuscatory layer of mumbo-jumbo. NLP selling organisations can be virtually cult-like, and the 'science' has been recognised as more or less valueless since about the 80s.
Posting anonymously because I have a day-job.
Very, very good advice.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the last paragraph, provided the first paragraph is properly observed: if you have a history of open honesty (and mutual respect) then there are no hard barriers on behaviour in public - you will both know intuitively what is unacceptable/hurtful/undermining behaviour. Saying that, it's vital to have that well-established foundation of trust and respect before relaxing the rules.
I would add one important piece of advice though: Remember That You Will Both Screw Up. In any close relationship, you will inevitably end up hurting one another from time to time; sometimes in everyday little ways, sometimes in almighty one-off fuck-ups. Patience and forgiveness from both parties are the only medicine for such ills, and when applied liberally and sincerely, the relationship will often be stronger after the fuck-up than before.
Meta will eat itself
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
I suggest some NLP training
And while you're at it, an astrology course. Knowing someone's zodiac sign really helps in understanding them. /sarcasm
Ahh, this reminds me of George's marriage counselling days. The dude really saved our relationship. Nothing keeps a wife satisfied like shock and awe in the bedroom.
I suggest some NLP training
I have to disagree with this. Non-linear programming is not appropriate for a marriage. If you can't express your needs as a set of linear constraints, then you're not trying hard enough. If you can't use the simplex algorithm to resolve resource allocation conflicts, then you're not ready to get married.
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I am an expert in electricity. My father held the chair of applied electricity at the state prision.
I have been an Anesthesiologist for 20 years. I have been fascinated when I see 80 year olds who have been married for 50+ years and they still care about each other. Whenever I have a couple like that, who tearfully kiss goodbye before surgery, I ask what the secret is to being married >50 years. The consistant pattern of advice I find is two things: 1) Be easygoing, compromise. 2) Make each other laugh. I don't know how many times I've heard "He makes me laugh" with people who are married >50 years. So do you make her laugh? Does she make you laugh? Is she willing to compromise a little if you want to do something she isn't in to?
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
DON'T DO IT
What?
Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if you're alpha-male-jock or whatever other type. What matters is how well you accept one another and how you deal with problems together. Most of the time, it is the woman that finds the man intolerable and not the other way around. (Yeah, there are exceptions of course) Usually, it's something that a guy does or doesn't do that leads to things becoming rocky and unstable at home and it's largely the weakness of the woman who quite literally chooses to not accept it as part of who you are. (There are also exceptions to this as well... should she accept sex, drug or gambling addiction? hell no! should she accept gaming addiction? hell no! should she accept failing to pay the bills because you spent money on geek crap? hell no!)
So putting aside serious detrimental behaviors, if she can't accept that you're a slob or a neat freak, then you shouldn't get married. And let's be clear on what the whole idea of marriage means in the first place. Don't consult a religious leader. Consult a divorce lawyer! If anyone knows what a marriage is REALLY all about, it's an experienced divorce attorney who has assisted in disassembling a marriage and all the things connecting the two people together in a tight relationship. You may find that in this day and age, that marriage is completely obsolete! A limited power of attorney, as it turns out, is all anyone needs unless one of you is from a foreign country. (I firmly believe that marriage is a legally binding agreement that can and will be used against you in a court of law.)
I have also found that some of the most serious sources of troubled marriages stem from the misconceptions of what marriage is or what function it serves. You'd both better be on the same page when it comes to the preconceptions about marriage religiously, socially and legally because they will lead to stupid friction moving forward. Personally, I have no religion and neither does my wife. That takes out 1/3rd of that problem from the start. Socially, we are on the same page. Legally, I'm fully aware since I have been divorced before (and came out on top).
Some people need to not be married at all. Both of you need to do some hard personality analyses on the matter. How do you balance "self vs relationship"? How do you balance "self vs family"? How do you balance "self vs child/ren"? If you favor yourself too much and are mature enough to admit it to yourself, then you probably shouldn't get married at all.
People too often think of marriage in terms of 30 minute situation comedies or two hour romantic comedies. They also too often think of it as a religious and/or social mandate. Get those misconceptions cleared up before you sign those legal documents. I'd say "read the fine print" but there is no fine print!!! Marriage is a bizarre legal construct that is not defined in any one single law anywhere. It's all over the place and frankly most written law is about divorcing if that tells you anything at all.
And even if you have all of the above completely covered, be prepared for changes that occur down the road. Dynamics and roles shift and change... sometimes abruptly and sometimes so gradually, you don't notice. Be flexible and know your limits so that you don't break when things go too far.
I'll tell you what works for me -- I'm ridiculously easy to get along with. I know myself well and have little trouble explaining myself to others while at the same time, I am very accepting of others. It also helps that it is accepted by my wife that I TRULY suck at remembering dates and what day it is. Having forgotten my own birthday on several occasions was all the proof she needed that I am an honestly a forgetful person when it comes to things like that. (And it's not like my birthday would be hard to remember. It's the first of a month! I'm just not that guy.)
Oh yeah, and don't make "the marriage" the thing... not EVER. If "the marriage" was the thing, then you're both chasing something that doesn'
My experience tells me otherwise. You normally both end up going to bed feeling really shitty, and things get left unsaid. You have a bad night sleep, because you're worried, and wake up the next day feeling crap, thoughts stewing in your head, often blaming the other person. Very often, it's easy to just sweep it under the carpet and things get left unsaid. Overall, things get worse.
Actually, it should be, "Never go to sleep angry." Normally we end up going to bed, and after a few minutes, we're feeling crap, and start discussing rationally.
I'm not saying it's not important to know when to walk away for tempers to cool (that's definitely good advice) but leaving things hanging in the air for any length of time, even for sleep, is not good.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
Mod parent up. As a married man myself, I can attest that trying to keep the "don't go to bed angry" myth as a practice can serve to make small, petty disagreements into large scale fights due to the lack of sleep. This gets compounded even further when/if kids are involved and your sleep becomes even more precious.
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
I don't forget to say those three special words: "I am sorry." I'm amazed at how many people in this world have trouble saying they are sorry even when they know they are clearly wrong. (This applies in all relationships, not just marriage.)
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Remember to 'sudo'
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
agreed.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
i heard a comedian say it, on tv.
my wife hits me when i say it.
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
6) Let her do things her way, even if suboptimal. When I heat a can of soup, I pour the can into the soup bowl and microwave for a few minutes. My wife insists on heating the soup in a saucepan, then ladling it into a bowl, thereby using more energy to cook and clean (and serve less soup). I've tried explaining the physics involved but it doesn't take. Live with it.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H. L. Mencken
Eating your soup cold out of the can is even more efficient. Cooking != physics.
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
1. Sex stops
2. She get's fat (probably you too)
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
90% of the time when she has a problem she wants to talk about, SHE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SOLVE IT, she wants to TALK about it! They have to vent and discuss and analyze and most of all gossip about the problems they have. Men just want to get things done and if it dose not work fix it. Spending time talking about a problem without the intent to resolve it goes against everything we are made up of, however that is just the way they work.
Still trying to get this right after 17 years marriage (to the same girl) so good luck! Ooh and if you ask them which they want, they will tell you they want it solved, just don't try and offer them advice on how to accomplish that!
I agree that that phrase is less often said than it needs to be said.
But by itself it accomplishes little. It can even be counter-productive. How often do *you* want to hear your loved one tell you "I'm sorry!" for exactly the same thing. Without some commitment to change (and progress thereof) it's really pretty meaningless.
Let's take alpart your list.
1 happens only if you married a liar. If she stops sex after you get married then she was faking liking it when you were dating.
2 happens If you have kids, yes she will get fat, but if you will get fat as well you lazy bastard.
3 happens only when you marry a liar that is hiding things from you see #1
4 she feels the same way, your parents are not a treat to her either.
5 Only because you let her.
6 Again, you married a control freak liar. your fault.
7 say yes, be honest.
8 again did she say she could?
9 OMFG shoot me now.
10 I host a MTG event monthly, Lan partys now consist of 4 42" plasmas in the living room with xbox360's or ps3's networked. she usually ends up the top of the heap and pisses off most of my friends.
If you marry someone that is incompatible with you and you lied most of your dating, yes you get what you listed. if you are honest to each other when you date, and you actually date people compatible with you you avoid most of the above.
the one I cant stand.... WTF is it with all the fricking pillows on the bed? we need 2... TWO!!!! not 60 of them!!!!!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No - they taste best when cooked IN the can over a trashcan fire.
Proximity to railroad tracks or bridge underpasses seem to add to the taste.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
First off, being "in love" with someone is a pretty messed up mental state which often blinds people to the faults and realities of the other person. This state of being "in love" can last a couple of years - though it does last far longer for some folks. The biology of this emotional state is to get two people who would otherwise not hook up, to have kids. Essentially, love blinds you to the faults (large and small) of the other person so that you are willing to make an eternal commitment to the other person.
1. Sex in relationships often diminishes regardless of the honesty of the people involved mostly because the female does not have the same sex drive as the male. Other factors contribute to the decrease in sex: medications (such as the birth control pill, anxiety medications, etc.), time stresses (got married and now you are both focuses on earning money to pay for the mortagage), and the negative emotional baggage that builds up over time. Sure, you love her now, and the fact that she won't do the dishes until the last dish is dirty doesn't bother you, but it will bother you a lot three years from now when you come home from an exhausting day of work related hell to find that all of the fucking cups are dirty. You won't get confrontational about it then because you are TIRED and it's a small thing. But sand is a small thing, and it can irritate the hell out of you. And after you have kids. . . sex is a challenge because nothing on earth kills the moment like the sound of your offspring opening the door for . . . a drink of water.
2. Weight gain happens because your metabolism changes and as you get older the work you do becomes less and less physical.
3. You money stops going where you wanted it to go when you were single. That causes resentment because no matter what, marriage does not change WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU LIKE. Don't expect her to change either. The only thing that changes people of either sex is trauma - emotional, physical trauma.
4. Relatives . . . mine are strange and insufferable. I like my in laws better.
5. My spouse drives the vehicle I don't want to drive. Right now, I drive the new truck and she drives the old civic. When we bought the SUV, she drove it, because I liked driving the protege better, of course she wanted to drive it.
6. Neglecting your spouse because you play HALO, or WOW 80 hours per week will cause just as much trouble as if you spent 90 hours per week working came home and watched football. It's the not being fair to the other person and forgetting that they need you to participate in their emotional well being part that cause the trouble.
7. Yes, she will ask. You will lie about it.
8. Learn to cook well.
9 & 10. Love is blinding so you'd better be sure she's being honest. If she likes to do the same things you like to do then you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, you'll need some win-win negotiations.
Honesty is the most important factor. If a person is brave enough to be honest with you, and very much wants to be a part of your life and vice versa, great. Beware though, the deceiver, because like a cheater, a liar keeps on lying.
Been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
alimony
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
See #1. You're not using them right ;)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
ain't that the truth. in my case, it was 18 years of resentment. and then I had to pay to send resentment to college.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
I would add some more -- the big relationship breakers:
#1: Don't cheat. This sounds obvious, but...
#2: Don't think that you could never cheat. Cheating in marriage is incredibly common, and most people who ended up cheating were people who thought that they could never cheat on their spouse. Recognizing that humans are hardwired to be at risk for cheating, that humans are still capable of falling deeply in love with someone other than their spouse during marriage, is the first step toward prevention. The second step is if you develop feelings toward someone else or someone else develops feelings toward you, end contact with that person immediately. The absolute worst thing you can do is to discuss your feelings with them; that will only amplify the feelings, especially if they reciprocate.
#3: Avoid spouse-approved sexual experimentation involving others (X-somes, etc) and so-called "open relationships". They impose too great of a risk for devolving into emotional attachments with the others that can strain the original relationship or unintentionally causing resent by your partner, even when both parties begin by insisting that they're okay with it. Follow the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
#4: Stay in tune with your spouse's needs. Absolutely do NOT expect that this will just happen on its own. Talk with your spouse at least once a month about their feelings, whether they're happy with their life, etc. It's an awkward topic to bring up, so most people just avoid it -- but that just leads to people suppressing the things that they're unhappy with. And when they're not having a need met by the relationship, they're at risk for turning elsewhere to get that need met. Don't let these conversations lapse as the relationship goes on; they become more important with time, not less!
#5: Help your spouse stay in touch with your needs. Don't pester, and be very gentle about it, but if you have a long-running issue, bring it up. If it's a sensitive subject, use extra caution when talking about it. However, don't let resentment on some issue fester inside of you.
#6: Money is the root of all evil. In most divorces, money is at least a partial cause. In particular, the issue is debt. Buy a smaller home, fewer cars, take fewer vacations, etc than you think you can afford, keep off of ebay, etc, and you'll relieve a lot of that potential monetary strain by keeping your debt levels low to begin with. The most stressful situation is when you're already deep in debt and you find that you need something expensive, be it replacing an air conditioner, medical bills, or whatnot.
Best of luck!
Aeris Died For Your Sins.
White lies are what stupid people tell because they can't figure out how to tell truth gently.
Do you love that (really ugly fucking sweater) I gave you? Not really, grandmother, but I love you!
What do you think of (outfit that accentuates every single flaw of a person's figure)? You know I love the way you look, but this outfit doesn't really seem to suit your look.
At work they made me so mad I (did something really childish in response to a stupid coworker) - what do you think? It's great that you stand up for yourself - you always have a plan. What is your plan for handling the blowback if any of those idiots get upset?
All of those are honest but they are said in a way that is kind and speaks to the core issue. Allowing someone to look like a fool when they were counting on you for honesty is incredibly cruel.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.