Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Neuros LINK Mixes Quiet, Aesthetics, and Ubuntu

Posted by timothy on from the gone-to-seed-is-before-the-good-stuff-in-this-context dept.

jonniee writes with a link to Dr. Dobb's Journal's look at a rather cool living-room-suitable media-centric computer from Neuros (presented as being suitable mostly for developers and serious hobbyists for now), excerpting: "The Neuros LINK is essentially a quiet x86 PC running Ubuntu Linux with an ATI graphics card delivering video via VGA, DVI, and HDMI output. ... What makes the LINK such a compelling platform for these folks and Linux/open source developers in general is the recognition that a real business entity is stepping forward to spend the money necessary to market and commercialize what tech enthusiasts have been doing for years."

121 comments

  1. Nice by Noam.of.Doom · · Score: 1

    I'm actually looking setting up a media center, but I think I still rather build my own machine for it. It also gives the advantage of reusing old hardware that's just laying around anyway

    --
    It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
    1. Re:Nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I use an old Dell gx620 with a Nvidia 8400GS. Running Ubuntu and Xbmc, easy as pie.

    2. Re:Nice by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Specifically any Nvidia chipset that will let you use VDPAU.

      mplayer now supports it and you can easily drive 1080p with an underpowered PC, as long as the video card is up to the task.

      (And if you're into that sort of thing, off hours you can be contributing to projects that use CUDA to offload to the GPU and thus do stuff much faster).

    3. Re:Nice by marcansoft · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The 8400GS is a great choice for a linux media center. I got an Asus EN8400GS Silent 512MB and highly recommend it. 512MB is required to decode some reference frame-heavy h.264, and the 512MB version seems to have a better heatsink (and it is, of course, fanless). There are also two versions of the 8400GS chip (one based on an older Gxx architecture - I forget the specific number), and the Asus card uses the newer one which has better VDPAU features.

      Of note, although not advertised, the card does have an SPDIF header - so with a simple RCA to pin-header cable you can get HDMI audio out of it with any DVI->HDMI converter. I've been using this card to watch a lot of 1080p HDTV lately without any issues. If you're looking for a cheap Nvidia card to do 1080p h.264 decoding with VDPAU to an HDMI TV (with audio), it fits the bill perfectly.

    4. Re:Nice by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Have they fixed the problems with b-frames in playback with mplayer/VDPAU? If they haven't (and I can find no indication that they have) then it's pretty worthless for a lot of people.

    5. Re:Nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only valid for the AVI container, but (almost) nobody uses it for H.264. I doubt it is an issue in practice.
      Let's just hope this terrible container format goes away quickly.

  2. Yes but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yes but does it run... wait... nevermind.

    1. Re:Yes but... by TheGreenNuke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes but can I sync it with my toaster?

    2. Re:Yes but... by Noam.of.Doom · · Score: 1

      I think I stumbled upon a project like that or something similar. Can't find the URL anymore

      --
      It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
    3. Re:Yes but... by inamorty · · Score: 3, Informative

      NetBSD Controlled Toaster

    4. Re:Yes but... by Noam.of.Doom · · Score: 1

      that's the one

      --
      It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
    5. Re:Yes but... by Coffee+on+Mars · · Score: 1

      Actually, syncing it with a coffee machine could prepare coffee just before a break or the end of a movie. And now that I see that idea written, I still can't find what is the problem with it.

  3. Looks pretty good on features and price by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It looks like it is only $250, not too bad. I could probably use it replace the Roku and AppleTV, which each kind of suck but at least do their one function well.

    I wonder how quiet it is, some of the pictures had fans...

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by value_added · · Score: 5, Informative

      I wonder how quiet it is, some of the pictures had fans...

      At least you clicked the link. ;-)

      In the text accompanying those pictures it said 27dB. Not quiet, but not noisy either.

    2. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The price is fine and all that. Unfortunately, at least according to my (personal) doesn't it doesn't look good in the literal sense. It looks like one of those cheap PCs back in the time when they were put on the desk below the monitor. The keyboard looks horrifying, too. Are all good industrial designers working for Apple?

    3. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by addsalt · · Score: 2, Informative

      FYI - XBMC now runs very well on the AppleTV (aside from HD support). You can replace your Roku and AppleTV with, well an AppleTV. It removes all the crappy restrictions and provides a beautiful interface my 3 and 4 year olds can use and my wife is happy with. It might be worth a look if you haven't tried it

    4. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wonder how quiet it is, some of the pictures had fans...

      Maybe the fans are to be pointed down to keep it levitating like a hovercraft.

      A very silent hovercraft.

      That runs linux.

    5. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Christophotron · · Score: 1

      Looks fine to me.. This is meant to go in an entertainment center, so you should be comparing it to your DVD player or your A/V receiver. That's the reason for the horizontal case. Also, that keyboard has been around a while and it's actually very ergonomic for non-desk use. It also has good battery life and quite long range. It has a trackball that you use with your thumb and the mouse click is on the index finger of the right hand. Left and right mouse buttons are also found on the left side. My only complaint about it is that it's not bluetooth.

      If your only complaint about this PC is that it's not shiny and awesome-looking, then maybe you deserve an Apple. The rest of us would rather spend less money on technically superior hardware.

      This thing actually looks like it uses completely standard hardware that I could pick up at Fry's. I might be able to build it for under $250 (it's a stretch), but then I wouldn't have a corporation supporting it with a warranty and such...

    6. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on how much noise you're used to. I've been using a Mac mini for over three years now, and I just can't stand regular PC towers anymore with their power supply fan and GPU fan.

    7. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Gorphrim · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The keyboard looks like it might be this Adesso model: http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Wireless-Keyboard-Optical-Trackball/dp/B000JJM7S0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1249910929&sr=8-1 If so, my experience with it is that it is crap. Every time I woke the PC up from a sleep state, I had to re-sync the keyboard with the USB dongle. Typing sporadically dropped keystrokes, and the trackball was jittery. Overall it felt very cheaply made. Just my two cents.

      --

      Queens of the Stone Age - they rule
    8. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Profit!

    9. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by casings · · Score: 1

      I have one, and honestly the noise isn't noticeable. Without anything else on (pc, ac, etc.) you can hear it, although I would definitely say it is certainly quiet enough. Also, I only turn it on when I actually want to watch tv or a movie, and in those situations I never notice it.

    10. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Year of the Linux hovercraft?

    11. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      sounds like poor drivers what OS where you using?

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    12. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My hovercraft is full of eels.

    13. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My hovercraft is full of eels.

    14. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      The keyboard looks horrifying, too.

      If you want something a bit more compact, you could always use something like the palm-sized Logitech diNovo Mini keyboard. I use one with an old Mac laptop I've relegated to handling internet media, and on the whole I'm pretty happy with it.

      But my main reservation about this gadget is that it won't replace my (much-hated) LG HDD recorder for live-to-air stuff. I might need to spend some time looking at MythTV for this, but there seems to be a lot to learn here. Last time I looked at it, I only had a partially-supported analogue TV card, which didn't make the job any easier, and I ended up just throwing the card in the bin.

    15. Re:Looks pretty good on features and price by itsthebin · · Score: 1

      perfect for a media centre except it also needs a learning IR remote built in.

      what do you do first - turn the television on with an IR remote.

      --
      ...I obey the laws of physics....
  4. Looking good by Osmosis_Garett · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the main things I look for in my entertainment systems is that they run quietly, and its promising to see a company develop a system capable of 1080p in a low sound output system. It is however disappointing to see that the system is just a reorganized PC, including multiple fans for cooling, which add the majority of decibels. As it takes on load (say, for running video in 1080p) and the fans kick it up to cope with the added heat, its going to increase in volume substantially, and as the system ages, it will start to make a fair bit of noise... not sounds I really want to be hearing as I'm engrossed in some sort of cinematic masterpiece.

    Ideally, I'd like a system much like the PS3 to use for a entertainment hub, something the PS3 is actually quite good at doing and doing quietly as well. Its just too bad that its a Sony product.

    1. Re:Looking good by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Noise: under 27dB"
      That's from the device's specs. Although I'm not terribly impressed, that seems rather high for a box that needs to be near my entertainment center.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:Looking good by dabadab · · Score: 1

      Look no further, check out the ION offerings. They can be run fully passively without any moving parts (although manufacturers tend to build complete systems with a single (smallish) fan, you can get a passive Ion mobo with a passive fan from Zotac) yet fully capable of playing back anything. And yes, it does run Linux (http://www.xbmc.org/).

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    3. Re:Looking good by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      PS3 is quiet? I'd hate to have a loud machine. In my experience PS3s sound like they're cooled by aircraft propellors.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    4. Re:Looking good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on which model of PS3. As they've shrunk the chips in various models, the amount of noise (and heat) put out by them has gone down considerably. New ones are near silent at all times.

    5. Re:Looking good by Azaril · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to wikipedia, 27dB is actually as loud as a "very calm room", and is a minimum of 20 times quieter than talking. The PS3 weighs in at 24dB at idle, so this box is twice as loud as that (I believe from googling, that source shows the new, smaller process PS3 though this may not be the case).

    6. Re:Looking good by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "a minimum of 20 times quieter than talking"

      You failed math, how many times? You can't turn that statement into a mathematical equation. If you were able to do so, you would have stated it properly.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    7. Re:Looking good by Azaril · · Score: 1

      Well given that 27 decibels is 13 less than 40 (which is the minimum for talking according to wikipedia), it is a minimum of 20 times quieter. 27 dB is 20 times quieter than 40 dB. How many times did you fail maths?

    8. Re:Looking good by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I asked for a mathematical equation, not for a circuitous rationalization for your poor grammar.

      Had you stated, "1/20th the volume" your statement could be incorporated into any mathematical equation. 20 times quieter is meaningless marketing babble.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    9. Re:Looking good by Jahf · · Score: 1

      Agreed. My PS3, HR20 (DirecTV DVR) and Xbox360 are the same age (approaching 1 year) and the PS3 is quieter than either of the other 2. I use the Xbox to play games on but I won't watch programming on it (I use UPnP streaming on all 3 devices). The PS3 runs louder than the HR20 if the PS3 is loading from a game disc but when playing BluRay they are about equal (and no, I'm not saying the HR20 has a disc, just that it is comparable in sound) and when viewing from the HDs or streaming the PS3 is the quietest of the bunch.

      --
      It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
    10. Re:Looking good by Fyzzler · · Score: 1

      Here's some math, since you are insisting on it.

      y = 20 * x

      ergo, x is 20 times quieter than y, assuming x and y are based on linear units of quiet. The math gets slightly more complex if you insist on using logarithmic units like decibels. I leave that as an exercise to the reader with reference source here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure

      --
      I have one question. If the Japanese Ministry of Agriculture is not in charge of Gundam, then who is?
    11. Re:Looking good by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "something times less than"

      "20 times quieter" means "20 times less than"

      It is a meaningless expression. It is a grammatically idiotic expression, which does NOT translate into mathematics.

      You have left NOTHING as an exercise for the reader. Express yourself properly.

      An educated person who wished to express the concept you wish to convey, might very well say "this machine produces a noise level .05% of ambient noise in a quiet room"

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    12. Re:Looking good by RogL · · Score: 1

      An educated person who wished to express the concept you wish to convey, might very well say "this machine produces a noise level .05% of ambient noise in a quiet room"

      When flaming someone else about their math, it helps to get your units right: .05% != 20x

    13. Re:Looking good by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      LOL - I made the error, caught it during proof reading, and decided to let it stand. And, you're the first to catch it! ~13 hours for an obvious mistake to go unchallenged on a geek forum? I guess geeks != math major college grads!

      However - I don't think that you typed what you meant to say, either. How about .05% != 1/20th ? To say precisely what the GP was ATTEMPTING to say, I would need to remove the decimal point.

      But, I'm confident that those who commonly use terms such as "20x quieter" aren't going to figure any of this out.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  5. ATI? eek! by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Using ATI in a linux MPC... that's just asking for trouble.

    I hope they give these things a _good_ testing...

    I see they are using an ATI Radeon HD 3200 - does anyone have any gaming performance numbers handy for this card, without all the benchmark-website-bullshit? If this thing works well enough... I may consider finally getting away from nVidia. But I thought these Radeon HD cards were giving Linux trouble? Did this get fixed?

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    1. Re:ATI? eek! by blackpaw · · Score: 1

      Yeah - I've had and heard nothing but trouble when it comes to ATI and video playback. NVidia + their binary all the way thanks.

    2. Re:ATI? eek! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got a HTPC running pretty much this setup, the 3200 is dreadful - it's fast enough to push 1080p but video tears severely - unfortunately it's onboard, or I'd throw it somewhere, as it stands, nVidia in just to get rid of it.

    3. Re:ATI? eek! by TyFoN · · Score: 1

      Yeah my thought exactly
      The ATI drivers don't support accelerated H.264 yet either do they?

    4. Re:ATI? eek! by javilon · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is another reason for considering Nvidia. They have vpdau:

      VDPAU (Video Decode and Presentation API for Unix) is an API designed by NVIDIA for its GeForce 8 series and later GPU hardware, targeted at the X Window System on Unix operating-systems (including Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris).[1][2][3] This VDPAU API allows video programs to offload portions of the video decoding process and video post-processing to the GPU video-hardware.

      This would allow them to use fairly quiet and cheap processors, like the atom, and still get flawless HD 1080p output.

      --


      When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
    5. Re:ATI? eek! by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Redundant comment!

      Somebody up more!

      If they went with Nvidia they could have had lower price, better Linux performance, better drivers and importantly VDPAU (video accelleration, drops CPU usage by 90%).

    6. Re:ATI? eek! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I recently bought an aspire revo, Nvidia ION platform. And after a short Linux install I can say VDPAU totally rocks.

    7. Re:ATI? eek! by TeknoHog · · Score: 4, Informative

      In my experience, watching video on Linux is hardly limited by the graphics card, and you certainly don't need a gaming monster to get get good video. I'm only interested in a good Xv implementation for hardware scaling, since the video formats are evolving anyway.

      My current media machine has a Mini-ITX motherboard with integrated Intel graphics and a Core Duo T2300 at 1.66 GHz. When I watch 720p H.264 (that's the most my monitor is capable of), only one CPU is used at 60%, and of course everything is smooth. The machine has only one fan, rated at 24 dBA, but it's running at 7 V instead of 12, so it's even quieter. The power supply is a passively cooled one (like PicoPSU) rated at 80 W.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    8. Re:ATI? eek! by doctor_nation · · Score: 1

      No kidding. I'm running the same thing and it's been nothing but trouble. I did at least manage to get the proprietary drivers to work after upgrading the BIOS. That gets me DVD playback at high quality. But I haven't figured out the HDMI connection yet, and flash is horrible.

    9. Re:ATI? eek! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's unfortunate, but it seems there is just not the man-power for delivering sufficient ATI/AMD linux drivers; it's unfortunate because ATI has laid open the docs to their hardware and thus allowed open source driver builders to write their own drivers, while nvidia offers no such support, so naturally for any linux enthusiast it should be the company of choice to pick, after all one of the strengths of Linux is that it is open source, *anybody* can check the source for bugs and improve it. With nvidia there is always the chance their binaries do have a bug and a fix for the exploit would depends solely on how fast nvidia could/would react.

       

      The thing is (as noted above and below ;) nvidia's drivers are far suporior to ATI/AMD's offering (be it the open source or the closed source version); the open source drivers don't even support 3D on cards bought last year, e.g. the 4850..

       

      Anyone who has "FOSS" written on their banner and has some skill in driver coding should support this effort and help the open source driver development.

    10. Re:ATI? eek! by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the other hand, the OSS drivers seem far more stable than the binary ones on hardware they do support (i have an older X1600), and a media player box like this is unlikely to need very much in the way of 3d capability... In this instance, the open ATI drivers are probably the best choice.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    11. Re:ATI? eek! by kinema · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's wrong with XvBA from AMD/ATI? What does vadau offer that XvBA doesn't?

    12. Re:ATI? eek! by wagnerrp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Support. VDPAU is something that is in the drivers, and can be used right now. Last November, they added it to their beta drivers, and offered a patched version of mplayer to test and as a code example. XvBA has been rumored for years, and hints of it showed up in the driver in October, but it is still not functional.

    13. Re:ATI? eek! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's out, ready and there's software supporting it.

    14. Re:ATI? eek! by bami · · Score: 1

      There is also the difference in media players.
      My HTPC is equipped with intel graphics and a dualcore atom. It struggles with 720p under VLC, but it's smooth sailing under Media Player Classic (under Windows XP). I guess if I overclock the graphics card it could run 1080p too, but haven't tested it since my monitor goes to 1440x900.

    15. Re:ATI? eek! by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with h264 "benchmarks" is that every h264 file can be different and
      the fact that you managed to get one particular sort of high res file to play on
      a particular system doesn't necessarily mean anything. Playing BBC or Apple web
      content is a bit different than playing and HD-PVR captures or BD rips.

      A $200 popcorn hour will play everything you throw at it.

      So will a $300 Revo running Ubuntu or Windows.

      This Neuros box is an interesting idea that was obviously flawed and
      somewhat behind the curve the moment it was announced.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    16. Re:ATI? eek! by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      The problem with h264 "benchmarks" is that every h264 file can be different and the fact that you managed to get one particular sort of high res file to play on a particular system doesn't necessarily mean anything. Playing BBC or Apple web content is a bit different than playing and HD-PVR captures or BD rips.

      Actually, my 60% CPU is surprisingly consistent over a wide range of different 720p H.264 sources, using MPlayer.

      However, I do have some experience on the graphics card limitations. On my somewhat older Intel laptop (Pentium M 1.6 GHz, 855GM chipset), 720p H.264 does not play smoothly using default settings. But it does with software downscaling, even though it increases the CPU load. Actually, this limitation went away with recent Xorg drivers, but at the time it was an interesting point to note.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    17. Re:ATI? eek! by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Holy crap! I love my Atom netbook... except when I'm playing video. If this tech works with most of the popular video player software (including Flash), then I can totally see myself buying an NVidia netbook.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    18. Re:ATI? eek! by Trogre · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but do the current ATi drivers manage to sync to vertical refresh correctly? I've never gotten it to work on a TV output with ATi chips. No problem with the nVidia driver.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    19. Re:ATI? eek! by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      However, 3D performance on a media center box is usually not very important. The fact that the unit just uses the AMD 780G integrated graphics is testament to that- if they cared much about 3D, they'd use a much more powerful discrete GPU. Media center units need to display the TV application's GUI and then play back video smoothly without tearing. The current xorg-video-ati drivers have excellent video playback through Xv and good 2D performance. Unless you're running some very high-bitrate 1080p H.264/MPEG-4 video, no remotely modern CPU needs GPU hardware decoding assist. Most of what you'd be seeing is MPEG-2, which just about any CPU made in the past half-decade can decode without any GPU assistance.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    20. Re:ATI? eek! by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Well, I need a gaming 'monster' mostly because I prefer to render the video in OpenGL and do the processing on it as a textured plane, with things like OSD and subtitles as another texture, that can have an independent "resolution".

      This means that I can use triliniar + anisinotropic filtering for scaling, and the hardware definitely can do that quickly (and it's not codec/container specific)... and even with a 320x420 video, I can have native resolution subtitles.

      It also means I can easily get vsync working.

      (i use mplayer, btw. not sure if other players can do this, commonly)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    21. Re:ATI? eek! by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Plus having the GPU as an on-board component is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Been there before, and never again, at least for desktop-type machines.

    22. Re:ATI? eek! by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Well, I need a gaming 'monster' mostly because I prefer to render the video in OpenGL and do the processing on it as a textured plane, with things like OSD and subtitles as another texture, that can have an independent "resolution".

      This means that I can use triliniar + anisinotropic filtering for scaling, and the hardware definitely can do that quickly (and it's not codec/container specific)... and even with a 320x420 video, I can have native resolution subtitles.

      It also means I can easily get vsync working.

      (i use mplayer, btw. not sure if other players can do this, commonly)

      Interesting, I also use MPlayer, but I had not though about those possibilities. This seems to work fine on my GMA950, except for the scaling/filtering options.

      Thus I admit that you could get a somewhat better picture with more hardware :) But there's also the tradeoff with noise, size and power consumption.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    23. Re:ATI? eek! by Finite9 · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with ATI? Depends on your point of view, but I suspect you may be comparing apples to oranges.

      If you take nVidias own driver and compare to ATIs own driver then yes, I agree that nVidia wins hands down. But we all hate proprietary drivers don't we? So if you compare an nVidia open source driver to..oh wait, it's still in alpha? Ok, if you compare alpha nouvau or whatever it is called, that currently doesn't ship with most distros and doesn't have much 3D support, to the open source driver for ATI cards that are starting to get to the same level of feature completeness that Intel graphics cards enjoy, then ATI wins hands down.

      I use an nVidia Go in my laptop and am forced to use the proprietary driver as the open source one just doesnt have the features I need to duel display etc and doesnt even have a decent 2D driver!! However, the system utilisation is much higher when using nVidias driver, you cannot trust them not to botch things on the next release, and if they do, it won't get fixed until they deem it a problem which may be a few releases down the road. Seriously, there are major drawbacks to using proprietary drivers in Linux.

      --
      "Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman
  6. Even for power users... by MukiMuki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even for power users, HTPC's can be aggravating. Why, in a world where you could put together a tiny monster PC for around $300 would someone buy a MivX or NMT player? Simple. Take any HTPC on the market, ANY.

    Plug it into a regular, yellow, composite television.
    Plug it into an HDTV via component or HDMI.

    If you can turn it on, boot it up, and play a video on it without a single configuration edit without any hassle from installation, then please, reply to this topic because as far as I know, an HTPC that does this is akin to a fucking unicorn.

    I have an iStar Mini and a Popcorn Hour, both NMT devices. The Mini's in the living room. If I wanna take that thing to the kitchen TV (13", composite in), I just put the movie on a USB stick and it's showing the film inside of the 2 minutes it takes to set up and boot. When it goes back to the living room, it's an HDMI connection to the TV and coax to the (admittedly cheap) surround system. Works just fine, automatically detects 1080p at startup. Over component, I'd have to hit two buttons to get 720p or 1080i (worst-case, 480p is instantly automatically enabled).

    I had a friend try to build a MythTV box. Hours went by as this man tried to get MythTV to show up at a decent resolution on his HDTV (this was a few years ago, via DVI). This is a guy who runs and actually knows how to use Gentoo, and would be a sysadmin if he wasn't a programmer at a Fortune 500 company (A good one, you've probably used their services at some point(s) in the last six months). On the AppleTV, the first test isn't even a possibility without some insane level of hacking (especially if you want color out of the composite out). I can only IMAGINE what it's like an a Windows Media Center rig. And in the last two cases, playing videos other than Quicktime or WMV, respectively, (let alone something like MKV) is a hassle that goes more hours into getting up and running than those devices are probably WORTH.

    As crappy and low-end as the interfaces are on mini video boxes are, they happen to work remarkably well for the simple process of "Plug into TV, watch stuff", whether "stuff" is on a usb stick or the network. Give me a call when the HTPC manages to get there on a remote-friendly interface.

    1. Re:Even for power users... by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      For playback, rather than using as a recorder with a Tuner, I've been using XBMC on an original Xbox for a couple of years. It's amazing. Plays anything, it's small, can be made near silent with a couple of mods, and costs virtually nothing - the only problem with it is that in the days of HD, it doesn't have the horsepower for decent HD playback. Other than that - it's the best thign since sliced bread - the interface is brilliant, it's got a huge developer base, and it's genuinely living-room-friendly.
      When I feel a pressing need to upgrade I'll probably go with Boxee running on either a modded Apple TV, or on a mini-ITX PC.

    2. Re:Even for power users... by Tx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I did battle with a couple of those little standalone media players, but in the end I went to the trouble of building and configuring a full-fledged (XP and MediaPortal based) HTPC. If you can live with the limitations of those stand-alone things, then fine. But when you run into an unsupported codec on those things, that's it, your only option is to convert the video on a PC. If you want a feature it doesn't have, say you want to add a tuner or whatever, you're stumped. Network performance (if any) usually sucks. There's really no comparison to the power and flexibility of a full HTPC, and yes, the HTPC takes a few hours of setting up, but once done, with a suitable remote and the right software, it's as remote-friendly as any of the little stand-alones.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    3. Re:Even for power users... by jeffehobbs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Check out the MSI media live bareBones. My daughter is watching Backyardigans right now via Ubuntu/Boxee. TV out has always worked, even 'out of the box.'

    4. Re:Even for power users... by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 1

      I had a friend try to build a MythTV box. Hours went by as this man tried to get MythTV to show up at a decent resolution on his HDTV (this was a few years ago, via DVI).

      Things have improved considerably with regards to Linux support of TV out. My latest build involved little more than a change using the Nvidia control centre to get s-video out working. Video out over HDMI was even easier.....plug and play quite literally. Audio over HDMI would have been similar if I had managed to wire up the motherboard to the card correctly :/

      In fact, TBH I don't recall getting TV out working to have been that difficult for many years but it all does depend on the particular hardware and distribution...e.g. I'm in the market for a new video card but am having to discount ATI due to known problems with their Linux drivers.

      As crappy and low-end as the interfaces are on mini video boxes are, they happen to work remarkably well for the simple process of "Plug into TV, watch stuff", whether "stuff" is on a usb stick or the network. Give me a call when the HTPC manages to get there on a remote-friendly interface.

      Most media-center front ends have been there for a while; certainly Freevo and I suspect Moovida have this level of ease of use...and I would be surprised if XBMC wasnt right up there.

    5. Re:Even for power users... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Looks to me like the devices you mention are pretty standalone. There is a lot of power in each device being able to recognize one another. Also, I'm not quite sure what OS any of these run; the websites don't mention it. That makes me nervous.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re:Even for power users... by jmac_the_man · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is most likely heresy, but my HTPC runs the Vista version of Windows Media Center just fine. I've got cable running directly into my capture card. With an "unofficial extension" (3rd party patch) it plays the (admittedly common) videos I watch. (No AVI support out of the box was a stupid idea, but that's fixed with the patch.) There's an official Netflix plugin for watch instantly. A one time wizard sets up the tuner and program guide. The interface works over HDMI, so long as I have external speakers plugged into the machine. (I don't, so I use a combination of stereo input and VGA, but that works on my TV.) I use the remote that comes with my case, which has a joystick for mouse navigation, but WMC translates that into keystrokes. I built this from scratch for about 700 bucks. (I got Windows at a discount though.) Add 70 bucks for video game controllers for emulators. And it's also a gaming quality PC. The only advice I can give is that you shouldn't skimp on the keyboard and mouse if you want to game on it.

    7. Re:Even for power users... by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Even for power users, HTPC's can be aggravating. Why, in a world where you could put together a tiny monster PC for around $300 would someone buy a MivX or NMT player? Simple. Take any HTPC on the market, ANY.

      Plug it into a regular, yellow, composite television.
      Plug it into an HDTV via component or HDMI.

      If you can turn it on, boot it up, and play a video on it without a single configuration edit without any hassle from installation, then please, reply to this topic because as far as I know, an HTPC that does this is akin to a fucking unicorn.

      For a DVR-replacement, an off-the-shelf HTPC may be more cost effective for the majority of people.

      I'd rather do more things with my HTPC. For example, play emulated games. Which off-the-shelf HTPCs tend to not be able to do.

    8. Re:Even for power users... by JoeBorn · · Score: 1

      The parent post does a very good job of posing the problem that the NeurosLink is trying to solve (with the exception of composite output which we've left for dead). The traditional embedded devices are more plug and play and a PC is vastly more flexible, how do you combine the benefits of both?

      The problems with a HTPC being plug and play are not at the high level. As many posts in this discussion demonstrate, many people have an easy enough time installing XBMC on Linux and the machine works well at the basic level. Its the details where a big amount of effort is needed. Make sure audio over HDMI works. Make sure the remote works and all the buttons are mapped correctly. Make sure you can configure the system entirely with the remote (at a minimum get it on the network). Make sure all videos play flawlessly out of the box, not just downloaded MKV files, but Hulu HD and all the other flash video sites. These are the kinds of little details that its really helpful to have a manufacturer behind. Someone has got to hammer away at the "final 5%" that's required for it to be competitive with any dedicated device.

      The good news is that once you get those details taken care of you left with a really powerful, robust flexible system. Obviously many talented folks have been hammering away at the various components for years (XBMC, MythTV, etc) so its really glue that's left to be done.

      --
      If you're going through hell, keep going -Winston Churchill
    9. Re:Even for power users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up: CEO of Neuros

    10. Re:Even for power users... by Amphetam1ne · · Score: 1

      That's the problem, trying to record and encode TV on a regular schedual yourself instead of getting someone else to do the hard work for you....

      I grab all my regular TV shows from usenet. I have the Alt.binz usenet client hooked up to the the tv and hdtv rss feeds from newzleech. It checks my wildcard text filters against the rss feeds, grabs the nzb files for the tv shows I want to watch and then downloads them for me overnight, automatically runs the parity check and fixes broken files then unrars the shows to the correct folders on my FreeNAS box.

      I switch on my XBMC Windows HTPC, which boots and loads XBMC without any problems (boot time is a little longer than I'd like, but I live with it). XBMC scans the smb shares on the FreeNAS box, finds the new TV shows, runs the filenames through the tvdb.com scraper, collects episode information, plot synopsis, generates a thumbnail and adds it to the library where I can view all the episodes, with fullscreen background art, cast lists, etc.

      Setting up XBMC for Windows was trivial. Setting up the FreeNAS box was prety simple. Setting up the rss filter list was reasonably straight-forward, once you understand how you use a modern usenet provider as an alternative to torrenting. The usenet subscription costs me Euro 8.50 /quarter for unlimited downloads at up to 2.5mbps, which I find to be excelent value as I use it quite a lot.

      This sort of setup may not be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you want to record less popular shows that don't get a scene release. It does occasionally glitch and miss a show, so I end up having to download roughly 2 missing episodes per month, which Isn't exactly a hardship if you consider I'm watching 10+ shows at any one time with 4 episodes a month, so a 2/40 or 5% miss rate roughly. This solution is working well for me at the moment and I'll stick with it until somthing better comes along.

      --
      I only buy pepper spray that's been tested on anti-vivisectionists.
    11. Re:Even for power users... by Finite9 · · Score: 1

      The problem with media players is that they always have some bug that is a showstopper for someone. I read a lot of reviews because im ni the market for a good media player and some have good network support but poor music support, whilst others have good movie support and bad at everything else. It IS better to build your own on Linux with MythTV or some such.

      --
      "Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman
  7. Not competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been looking for a small, quiet system to replace my current MythTV system. I don't find the Neuros LINK competitive with the various nettop offerings available now, particularly the new ION based systems. I can't find any power consumption figures in the article or on the Neuros site. I imagine they're worse than the typical ~20 watts for a ION based system. From the point of view of GPU acceleration, Nvidia's VDPAU video acceleration framework is widely supported and ATI's XvBA isn't. An atom system with an Nvidia GPU seems like the best option at present.

    1. Re:Not competitive by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well it is using an AMD 1660-LE so you are talking 40w just on the CPU. If I was building an HTPC for a customer I'd be looking at a Dual Core, so that even when crunching high def video the controls would be smooth as butter. With C&Q enabled my AMD 7550 is nice and quiet, even when running 1080p which is fed to my 4650 GPU for post processing. Of course all of this is in WinXP X64, where ATI has hardware video post processing so I have no idea how it would work in Linux, but I haven't heard good things. Does AMD even HAVE post processing up and running in Linux yet?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  8. Maybe it will force Adobe to fix flash on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Adobe Flash Player is the biggest CPU hog I have seen on my Ubuntu box, even with hardware acceleration enabled. Things have improved with version 10 but the experience is still considerably worse than flash performance on windows. Maybe if a few hundred thousand Neuros devices are sold, it will convince Adobe to put a serious effort into fixing these issues.

  9. HDTV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As far as I know, ATI cards doesn't support video acceleration for HD content, which makes this device rather useless.

  10. Fans? No no no by jabjoe · · Score: 1

    I don't want another fan heater in the liver room. At the moment the TV is just another screen for the desktop, the TV menu system is something I knocked together with pyGame, MPlayer and pyLIRC. Job done (all the existing media software was fat and/or HD only). If I'm going to get a separate machine for media, I want it not to add more noise or notable heat/power use. My perfect media machine is something like a SheevaPlug with Scart + HDMI (future proofing) output. If you can fit DVB input too, great. A affordable modern available DreamBox. A x86 fan heater doesn't fit the bill to me.

    1. Re:Fans? No no no by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      There are modern versions of the Dreambox available, like the DM800 (single tuner) and DM8000 (4 tuner slots), the tuners are modular, you can fit hard drives and it supports usb/esata devices too...
      I have a DM800 because i couldn't justify the cost of the 8000 and it works nicely... The only issue as far as a media player is concerned is that it will only play mpeg2 and h.264 (which it does in hardware because the cpu is too slow on its own), but most videos can be acquired in those formats these days anyway.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Fans? No no no by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      Never seen a DM8000 on offer any where in the UK, there always "out of stock" or "coming soon". The price looks to dear anyway, now you tell me it can only handle a few formats. I thought you could get vlc for it. It's a shame it's pricy and not up to spec, because other than that, it's exactly what I want. Maybe one of the Linux ARM/Nvidia netbook would fix the bill. DVB cards would be nice, but is increasingly less important.

    3. Re:Fans? No no no by JobyOne · · Score: 1

      I have to wonder: If your TV is already plugged into your primary machine, complete with what sounds like a sweet menu system you made just how you like it...what exactly would you need another dedicated video machine for?

      "Time to watch a movie, let's shut down computer A and watch it on computer B!"

      --
      Porquoi?
    4. Re:Fans? No no no by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine bought a DM8000, and yes they are very pricey...
      It has a 400MHz cpu, and a hardware decoder for mpeg2/h.264, so using vlc it will play anything that can be played on such a spec of system, not sure if divx/xvid would play correctly.
      I only have the DM800, which has a slower cpu than the 8000, most of the videos i want to play on it are h.264 encoded anyway which it plays using the hardware support. It handles 720p video perfectly, and i don't have any 1080p video to try with it.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  11. MP4 / Patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I notice that it supports MPEG4 with mplayer/xine/vlc, I wonder if Neuros licensed the relevant software patents to allow them to ship this codec.

    1. Re:MP4 / Patents by JoeBorn · · Score: 1

      yep, sure have. It's funny just today in the mail I got a big envelope from a law firm I didn't know, and I put it aside just figuring it was another letter from a patent troll demanding royalties. That's just a routine part of being an electronics manufacturer nowadays. It turned out it was something else for once, but generally big envelope from a law firm you don't know mean patent troll nowadays.

      --
      If you're going through hell, keep going -Winston Churchill
  12. But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 acceleration by sanermind · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Honestly, nvidia's vdpau is the only way to go now for playing hi-def content (like that produced by the HDPVR1212)on anything other than a super high end box. (Seriously, even my quad core2 clocked at 3.2Ghz can't handle high bitrate x264 hi-def), although I've heard there's an experimental ffmpeg branch that can decode across multiple cores.

    --

    ---
    the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
  13. Acer r3600 with NVIDIA ION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    TFA reads like an ad...

    Here's another:

    Have a look at the r3600 from Acer. I have just bought one and it is fantastic. It passes the girlfriend test by being silent and attachable to the back of the TV -- no wires visible except the power cord, and it is pretty happy at decoding HD video, thanks to NVIDIA VDPAU (ION platform). Costs next to nothing and is available in a Linux configuration. Couple that with a nice TV and a wireless keyboard and you get a pretty neat setup...

    1. Re:Acer r3600 with NVIDIA ION by frehe · · Score: 1

      Your girlfriend is silent, attachable to the back of the TV, has no wires visible except the power cord, and is pretty happy at decoding HD video? Well, you sure are one lucky man!

    2. Re:Acer r3600 with NVIDIA ION by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      I take you live in Europe or, more likely, the UK? AFAIK, devices like the r3600 are still not for sale in the US. Anyone want to suggest reasons for this? It's pretty much impossible to find ION-based netbooks here as well. No major PC manufacturer that I can find ships anything other than Intel-only systems. Since the ION is an Atom-based system, you'd think Intel would be happier seeing these shipped than systems like the Neuros running ATI gear.

  14. ATI, linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why on earth would they design a linux product running on ATI? That's just begging for issues..

  15. Re:But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 accelerat by KamuZ · · Score: 1

    What about XvbA from AMD?

    Also, this ATI is close to release it a seen here.

    Of course is not perfect yet and they have been pushing the release date but still, i don't see right now a big gap between NVIDIA and ATI.

  16. Re:But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 accelerat by wagnerrp · · Score: 3, Informative

    A 3.2GHz Core2 should be able to handle any video an HDPVR can throw at it. The HDPVR really isn't even that high bitrate. Peaking at 13.5mbps, it's less than half what you might find on Bluray disks. The problem is that it is single sliced. You can currently only use one core per slice. The ffmpeg-mt branch should being decoding within range of most dual core processors.

  17. Fit PCs by coofercat · · Score: 1

    I can't comment about true HD capability, and relative speeds, and respond to "does it do better than " type questions, but that machine looks like a regular PC in a shiny case to me. If you want something a bit more revolutionary, then a Fit PC might be more up your street: http://fit-pc.co.uk/ (and yes, it can run Linux).

    1. Re:Fit PCs by luca · · Score: 1

      In the specifications they say that h264 is fully hardware accelerated, but I don't think it's possible with an intel GMA500 (at least under linux), is it?

    2. Re:Fit PCs by xlotlu · · Score: 1

      You're right, it won't under linux.

      Actually the GP is rather wrong in saying it will run linux. If you want to use your GMA500, you're stuck with a specific kernel version, a specific mesa, and a specific x.org, with no upgrade path for now.

      The Z series Atoms are nice, the chipsets paired with it are very low power, the PowerVR graphics kicks ass, and that tiny box is really sweet. But if you want linux, you have to stay away from Poulsbo.

  18. Slashvertisement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because Adblock doesn't kill "editorial" content.

  19. Direct X 10 support? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So has Linux finally sorted itself out w.r.t Direct X 10?

    When I was looking at building a HTPC I decided that Windows was essential due to direct 10 and games. Another important issue is still that MOST software you buy off the shelf is ONLY supported for Windows. So if you've already got software you'd have to use WINE. Don't get me wrong I liked using Ubuntu, but couldn't get HDMI sound working... only the pucture.

    1. Re:Direct X 10 support? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      DirectX is really only relevant if you're intent in creating an HTPC is really to create a modern equivalent of an Amiga or Atari ST: namely a computer that uses a TV as it's monitor. The "Charlie Chaplain problem" really isn't too terribly relevant for an HTPC. There is certainly the various HTPC type apps to consider but for the most part on any platform the "usual stuff" is pretty much off the table.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  20. ATI graphics on a media pc? by sammydee · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Why are they using an ATI card? Nvidia cards have much better support under linux generally, including full 1080p h264, mpeg2 and wmv hardware decode support. ATI don't have any hardware video decoding support at all, so to play HD films you need a much more beefy cpu creating a lot more heat and noise than with the nvidia solution.

    ATI's drivers still haven't really got much better, tried installing them on a friend's Ubuntu pc the other day for a radeon 3650. Trying to enable compiz caused the entire system to hang immediately, and the only way to get working video was to use the opengl output option. The open source drivers aren't exactly brilliant at the moment either. If you want real opengl or video support on linux your only option is still nvidia.

    --
    This is how the loudness war is killing music.
  21. ati graphics on Linux? by ilkensai · · Score: 1

    We know the machine will be quite, but the owner, not so much when he starts yelling, "Damn ATI Catalyst!!!"

  22. Aesthetics??? by Shag · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    If a black rectangular box - even a somewhat shiny one - strikes you as an example of aesthetics, you really need to pause "2001," lock the screen, step away from your Linux box, go up the stairs out of your mom's basement, put on some sunglasses and sunscreen and go spend some time in the big room with the bright lights and the blue ceiling.

    Find some people on the street - people whose life does not revolve around Linux systems of their own construction - and ask them whether they think a black box, shiny or not, has any beauty to it, compared to products that they personally own or use.

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  23. Re:But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 accelerat by sanermind · · Score: 1

    Um, except for the fact that vdpau currently, I don't know ...WORKS?

    --

    ---
    the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
  24. Re:But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 accelerat by sanermind · · Score: 1

    That's working now, is it? I'll have to try it again, last time I looked, it wasn't. Also, if we're talking high end processors, we aren't talking about this particular device.

    --

    ---
    the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
  25. Re:But ATI doesn't support hardware x264 accelerat by JoeBorn · · Score: 1

    Also, if we're talking high end processors, we aren't talking about this particular device

    A 2.8GHz single core is a pretty careful choice. It's a pretty good balance that supports a wide range of content, remember not everything supports multiple cores well (or hardware acceleration for example). This processor does everything up to 1080p24 (what you see on apple.com for example) and also supports flash video, etc. On one hand, there's a great deal of discussion of ION or other graphics centric solutions, which are great when that hardware matches *exactly* what you want to playback, but then try something not optimized (flash for example) and you are very limited. On the other side, there are more powerful CPUs, but the expense (and cooling requirements-noise go up) and in most applications you won't see one lick of improvement, I know because we tested a lot of them before settling on this one.

    --
    If you're going through hell, keep going -Winston Churchill
  26. Why not Nvidia ION platform? by notanatheist · · Score: 1

    Seriously, they took a stand microATX case, stuffed in regular desktop components, installed Ubuntu, and said "it's for hobbyists and hackers"? Wow. Gee. Amazing. NOT!!! Why not pick a slicker 17" wide case that matches existing AV components and work with a mini ITX Nivida ION based platform? At least then it would seem to be more than a computer. Throw in XBMC or Boxee if you don't want to deal with setting up MythTV and call it a day.

    1. Re:Why not Nvidia ION platform? by hackmeister · · Score: 1

      I just built an Ion based Myth Frontend. It's awesome:
      http://pdavila.homelinux.org:8080/blog/?p=347
      http://pdavila.homelinux.org:8080/blog/?p=348

      It's a great box for MythTV (frontend), XBMC and Boxee.

      I love NeurosTechnology but yeah why the hell did they go with an ATI card? They can still replace it. They're not locked to it by any means.

      --
      http://tllts.org - The Linux Link Tech Show
    2. Re:Why not Nvidia ION platform? by atamido · · Score: 1

      Nice posts, but you should probably introduce the concept of paragraphs at some point.

  27. USA only by freezin+fat+guy · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately for would-be worldwide adopters, a significant portion of the neuros.tv catalogued television content is only served to US ip ranges.

    The good news is that foreigners will still be able to view water-skiing squirrels.

  28. keyboard does suck by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    I personally would not bother getting the keyboard version. I would watch movies on it, not type my memoirs.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  29. 27dB is not good compared to PS3 and AppleTV by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    Exactly, I think 24dB is closer to what we want. And I don't want something close to normal talking at all if I'm going to watch a movie. I don't think I want to even have anything close to whispering at 1m, which I assume would be like a movie theater.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  30. Or Intel XvMC open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Intel has XvMC components in their open source drivers. Works in mplayer.

  31. Cue the haters: by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

    Ubuntu and Aesthetics? NEVA!

    --
    But... the future refused to change.
  32. Lost me at "ultimate media convergence appliance" by JobyOne · · Score: 1

    Since when did Slashdot start posting slightly edited press releases from little-known hardware manufacturers?

    --
    Porquoi?