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Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels

QuesarVII writes "Tavis Ormandy and Julien Tinnes have discovered a severe security flaw in all 2.4 and 2.6 kernels since 2001 on all architectures. 'Since it leads to the kernel executing code at NULL, the vulnerability is as trivial as it can get to exploit: an attacker can just put code in the first page that will get executed with kernel privileges.'"

120 of 595 comments (clear)

  1. Ahh... by clone53421 · · Score: 5, Funny

    So that's what the NULL pointers were for.

    --
    Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    1. Re:Ahh... by PhilPSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The biased /.er. It doesn't matter that it was a 8 year old really bad exploit. If it was MS this post would have been on the same day as it was found and everyone laughing at how lame Win is. Not for the /.ers. Nope focus on the fact the article didn't get posted here till today and that "hey, look its already been patched way back in april of this year no worries WE WIN!!

    2. Re:Ahh... by alexborges · · Score: 2

      Not so. We just simply get this fixed within days of an exploit being discovered.

      Windows, on the other hand, STILL, TODAY, HAS local root exploits that are plain UNPATCHED.

      Microsoft just doesnt give a fuck about their customer's security. And thats that.

      --
      NO SIG
    3. Re:Ahh... by pugugly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is, if this were an eight year old really bad exploit in Windows, the article would be explaining how the authors pointed this out to Microsoft 7 years and six months ago, were threatened with legal hell if they said anything to anyone, the exploit has been in the wild though three versions of windows for six years, they finally managed to get a gag order revoked now, and we're just now finding out about it.

      Instead we are finding out about an old, but only just uncovered (by white hat) exploit, and there is a reasonable chance my PC will be patched by the time I get home tonight.

      A 'bias' or 'prejudice' is judging in advance of the facts. When a judgment is based on a long prior history, the term is 'Experience'.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
  2. I'm safe! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I use Windows!

    1. Re:I'm safe! by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Funny

      Once again, my 2.0 Linux kernel is safe!

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:I'm safe! by Bandman · · Score: 3, Funny

      Excellent. My old 2.2-based Slack 8 boxes should be fine, too.

      Can't trust that new-fangled 2.4 stuff. USB support? Who needs it!

  3. Security through Obscurity? by MarkvW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does this mean that Linux was never more secure than Windows--only more obscure?

    1. Re:Security through Obscurity? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, all Microsoft OS's would fault when trying to execute code at a NULL address, merely because people needed to use something to signify an uninitialized pointer. Most operating systems do this. Apparently (I could be wrong, the article is short on details and I don't play in that part of the kernel), this is due to an optimization and not necessarily the original intention.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    2. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      uh huh..and the 8 years it took to discover don't matter, eh?

    3. Re:Security through Obscurity? by dissy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does this mean that Linux was never more secure than Windows--only more obscure?

      It's hardly obscure since they could look and find it, evidenced by the fact they found it.

      Go try that with the Windows kernels!

      In addition, there is already a patch out for this, which by end of the week will be pushed down from the distro managers. We don't have to wait years after finding it for the fix to be released, as Microsoft historically does.

      In fact, why just assume this similar bug is NOT in the windows kernel? Did you check? Did any reputable security company check?
      I'm not saying it is there, only that you can't easily prove otherwise.

      *that* is the security being spoken of.

      As far as I know, only one OS claims no exploits, and that is OpenBSD.

    4. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Romancer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Little faster than that:

      -
      Solution
      -

      Linus committed a patch correcting this issue on 13th August 2009.

      http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=e694958388c50148389b0e9b9e9e8945cf0f1b98

      -
      Credit
      -

      This bug was discovered by Tavis Ormandy and Julien Tinnes of the Google
      Security Team.

      --


      ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
      ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    5. Re:Security through Obscurity? by amorsen · · Score: 5, Informative

      Generally people don't care about local privilege escalation on Windows. Like this vulnerability.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    6. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How do you know that nobody knew about it. It could have been a nice little tool for somebody for years.

    7. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does this mean that Linux was never more secure than Windows--only more obscure?

      No. If nobody knew it wasn't a security issue.

      Isn't that exactly what security through obscurity means?!

    8. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Bandman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I can't buy this, and neither should you.

      Really, just because they're not common knowledge doesn't mean that no one has found them.

    9. Re:Security through Obscurity? by molo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Important, not "Critical". And there are a bunch like that on every Patch Tuesday,

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    10. Re:Security through Obscurity? by recoiledsnake · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Does this mean that Linux was never more secure than Windows--only more obscure?

      It's hardly obscure since they could look and find it, evidenced by the fact they found it.

      Go try that with the Windows kernels!

      In addition, there is already a patch out for this, which by end of the week will be pushed down from the distro managers. We don't have to wait years after finding it for the fix to be released, as Microsoft historically does.

      In fact, why just assume this similar bug is NOT in the windows kernel? Did you check? Did any reputable security company check?
      I'm not saying it is there, only that you can't easily prove otherwise.

      *that* is the security being spoken of.

      As far as I know, only one OS claims no exploits, and that is OpenBSD.

      The transparent thing works both ways... it's easier for black hats to find holes too, by your own logic. And they can keep it secret and exploit it as long as they can. A similar bug existing in Windows doesn't prove anything and is irrelevant here. After all 'M$ can't code shit'. Linux and FOSS is commonly claimed to be more secure because of it's development model and bug free here in these parts. Any data that runs counter to this is routinely downplayed by commenters and moderators... just like your post got modded up.

      --
      This space for rent.
    11. Re:Security through Obscurity? by recoiledsnake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Linux runs on a lot of shell servers, gameservers, webhosts etc. where normal user accounts are sold to customers. This happens much less with Windows servers which tend to be more owned and used by a single entity with full admin rights.

      --
      This space for rent.
    12. Re:Security through Obscurity? by DavidTC · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, but generally exploits get discovered by others if they are used.

      At some point, someone curious will get hacked, and wonder how the hell that happened, and track down the exploit.

      And that's not even including discovery on the cracker's side. (People he works with, etc.)

      The only way to keep an exploit a secret is to (almost) never use it. It's going to be made public within a few months of even low usage.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    13. Re:Security through Obscurity? by spun · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No. If nobody knew it wasn't a security issue. I'm sure there are bugs on every OS with more than 8 years old yet to discover.

      You veered completely off track right about here: "If nobody knew"

      Seriously? Really, that's the best you could come up with? That's your apologia? How do you know nobody knew? You think the real blackhats are going publicizing their 'sploits? Blackhats these days aren't script kiddies and honest hackers, they are hard core Russian mafia doing it for cash. Your Linux systems could have been owned twelve ways from Sunday for EIGHT YEARS without you ever knowing it, and you are claiming 'it wasn't a security issue?' WTF? When did Linux get infested with idiot fanboys? Shouldn't you be slobbing all over an Apple or something? I was using Linux before you even knew what Unix was, I despise Microsoft and love open source, but a bug is a bug.

      Try this one: 'No. Because it's a freaking LOCAL EXPLOIT and nearly no-one uses Linux for multi-user systems now that everyone can afford their OWN FREAKING COMPUTER.' Good lord, kids these days, gotta teach them everything.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    14. Re:Security through Obscurity? by freeweed · · Score: 4, Funny

      Your post got modded up, too.

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    15. Re:Security through Obscurity? by amorsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, it was patched, but it wasn't exactly all over the news. Neither is this one for Linux, but it managed to get mentioned on Slashdot.

      Local privilege escalation is hard to guard against with current mainstream operating systems. The attack surface is very large and it is hard to completely verify interfaces. That said, Linux team seems to be doing fairly well overall. We're certainly a long way from the "good" old days when crashme would crash pretty much any Unix system. OpenBSD is doing even better, masturbating monkeys or not.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    16. Re:Security through Obscurity? by taviso · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, it is possible to map at NULL in Windows, which is just as plagued by NULL pointer dereferences as Linux is.

      Try this:

      BaseAddress = (PVOID) 0x00000001; // (1 & ~PAGE_SIZE) == NULL
      RegionSize = 0x1000;
      NtAllocateVirtualMemory(GetCurrentProcess(), &BaseAddress, 0, &RegionSize, MEM_COMMIT | MEM_RESERVE, PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE);

      --
      ex$$
    17. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Vexorian · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It was fixed much faster than MS after it was announced. I guess it is 100000 times faster than your usual MS flaw. So, yeah Linux is more secure.

      Also, did you bother reading what this exploit does? It is very bad because it allows user programs to gain administrator privileges. This is insecure because it puts Linux in a category that's as insecure as all pre-vista windows computers and also the UAC-enabled-because-else-it-is-useless vista and 7 computers. That's the problem here, it moves Linux to a windows state...

      Finally, it is easier to find flaws in Linux, this increases the chances blackhats found bugs, but it also increases the chances someone else will find it in paralel, preventing your hypothetical situation...

      Ironically, it is because of some artificial obscurity that this bug was present and took so long to find. Most vulnerabilities aren't caused by obscure optimization issues, and are findable in source code, those were a non-issue thanks to the lack of obscurity. So this actually proves obscurity != security.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    18. Re:Security through Obscurity? by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The fact that Travis and Julien found it after eight years pretty much means that the flaw existed in obscurity.

      Except for the fact that it was out in the open (being open source and all), which pretty much means it was not in "obscurity".

      Just because something isn't known doesn't mean someone is trying to hide it.

    19. Re:Security through Obscurity? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Theoretical nefarious hackers who discovered the flaw before Travis and Julien would have been trying to hide it. Just because something isn't known doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

      Security through obscurity does mean the thought that that as long as no one knows about it, it's not an issue. Being open source doesn't make you immune to this. What would make you immune to this would be formal testing and security audits of every component, like is done on things like the space shuttle. This is generally prohibitively expensive for situations where actual life and limb danger isn't a factor, which is why no commonly used operating system implements this strict security level. Sure, having a lot of eyes looking at the Linux kernel helps (and it eventually worked in this case) but just being open source doesn't mean it's secure.

    20. Re:Security through Obscurity? by 0xABADC0DA · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, it's called hardware level paging ... The problem is from how the exceptional condition (null pointer access) is handled by the kernel, and not the fact that NULL was called.

      No, it's not. The problem is that the kernel also has access to the process's memory, so if the process mapped page 0 as r-x then the kernel also has that page. So when the kernel jumps to NULL through a function pointer, it runs whatever code the process put there.

      This mapping is done for efficiency because otherwise any system call would flush TLB at least *twice* and it would be slow as hell.

      Hardware memory protection is as old as dirt, but it's also a brutish fossil, symbolic of a decayed era, gratefully forgotten.

    21. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is this like some kind of (biological) virus that might just be out there, wreaking havoc and killing people, even though there's absolutely no evidence of such a virus? That makes no sense at all.

      If this exploit were already known by people with malintent, they would have used it already, and it would be known more widely. Note that this works for both open-source and closed-source code. The main advantage with open-source code is that anyone can look through the code for problems; this doesn't mean that they do. But it looks like this exploit was found by some researchers, not the kernel developers. This is something that can't be done in the closed-source world, so theoretically there should be fewer exploits in OSS code overall.

      In reality, however, I think the issue of closed-source vs. open-source really doesn't make that much difference when it comes to security. What does make a huge difference is Microsoft's crappy code and architecture, with idiotic things like ActiveX. OSS code would have the same problems if their developers made such poor choices; it's just that OSS coders aren't driven by marketing the way MS (and other proprietary companies) is, forcing them to make poor architectural choices because marketing thinks customers will like it better.

    22. Re:Security through Obscurity? by martyros · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It turns out that it's not simple to map NULL, but unfortunately (from a security standpoint) not impossible. It's normally disallowed, but since there are programs that sometimes need it (namely domemu-style programs). See this LWN article describing the previous NULL-dereference exploit. Presumably the seriousness of this NULL pointer exploit inspired others to look for exploitable NULL pointer bugs as well.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    23. Re:Security through Obscurity? by malevolentjelly · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You clearly don't understand what is meant by quick. Quick is the time it takes to patch the bug from the point it's determined that it exists.

      How do you know when Microsoft plugs a bug in the Windows platform? Do you keep track of their internal repository? What matters is when the patch gets to the users of the system, not some bleeding edge repository. It's still not in the hands of Linux users. If it gets there in less of the time than Microsoft can push a patch out for their platform, then it's faster. It being in the bleeding edge repository is meaningless.

    24. Re:Security through Obscurity? by Bent+Mind · · Score: 4, Interesting
      About a week ago, I updated to kernel 2.6.30. One of the options that showed up describes itself thus:

      CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR: This is the portion of low virtual memory which should be protected from userspace allocation. Keeping a user from writing to low pages can help reduce the impact of kernel NULL pointer bugs.

      Unless I am misunderstanding, or the bug is in this code, the Linux kernel is already protected if properly configured. The kernel already prevents this attack.

      --
      Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
  4. I don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why the bloody hell isn't page 0 hard-wired to panic the kernel / SIGSEGV the userland when accessed?

    1. Re:I don't get it... by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's somewhat ironic that this is only exploitable if you have selinux running.. (afaics)

      AFAIK it's not SELinux, it's poorly-designed SELinux policies which allow any process to map pages at address zero even if they're not root or not otherwise allowed to do so.

  5. Summary's Useless link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's the real one- linked from (mostly) useless article.
    http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html

  6. I can hear the OpenBSD users laughing already... by thenextstevejobs · · Score: 5, Funny

    Or I would be able to, if there were any

    --
    Long live the BSD license
  7. (from the blog) by An+anonymous+Frank · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the Linux kernel, each socket has an associated struct of operations
    called proto_ops which contain pointers to functions implementing various
    features, such as accept, bind, shutdown, and so on.
    If an operation on a particular socket is unimplemented, they are expected
    to point the associated function pointer to predefined stubs, for example if
    the "accept" operation is undefined it would point to sock_no_accept(). However,
    we have found that this is not always the case and some of these pointers are
    left uninitialized.
    This is not always a security issue, as the kernel validates the pointers at
    the call site, such as this example from sock_splice_read:
    [snip]
    But we have found an example where this is not the case; the sock_sendpage()
    routine does not validate the function pointer is valid before dereferencing
    it, and therefore relies on the correct initialization of the proto_ops
    structure.
    We have identified several examples where the initialization is incomplete:
    [snip]

  8. Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels by sofar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    sudo

    Please, this is a _local_ privilege escalation. It's not like code red infecting your box remotely. A sledgehammer is also a local privilege escalation.

    1. Re:Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels by jandrese · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing is, local privilege escalations can become remote privilege escalations when combined with buggy services that allow for code injection. This is especially bad for people who are forced to run services that they don't trust and thus place them in jails, only to discover that if the exploit happens at the kernel level then your jail means nothing.

      My guess is that rootkits are being updated as we speak, so get your kernels patched people.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels by athakur999 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But if you have any programs that access the Internet that have a bug that allow running arbitrary code, couldn't a remote cracker could exploit the vulnerability in that program to invoke this bug, and through that gain root access to the machine? It sounds like the program being exploited could even be running as a regular user.

      --
      "People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
    3. Re:Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels by quarterbuck · · Score: 3, Funny

      A sledgehammer is a Denial of Service - Unless you aim it at the head of the operator and threaten to use it.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    4. Re:Local Privilege Escalation On All Linux Kernels by cenc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is easily used as a remote exploit from the looks of it. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. Some of the new linux users are likly getting the impression you need to be physically sitting at the machine.

      Say you have virtual server somewhere as is common to most low end VPS hosting companies with linux running on it with a reseller account. What is there a few million of these or more around the World likly?

      You have given clients ssh access to use sftp. So, they have limited local user rights, if they are not properly jailed.

      In theory then this is part of a remote exploit on certain systems that will give elevated privileges.

      Am I right about this?

  9. SELinux? by Shimdaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is this something that SELinux would protect against?

    1. Re:SELinux? by QuoteMstr · · Score: 4, Informative

      SELinux makes the problem worse. Without SELinux, there's a variable that specifies the lowest page in memory that a process can map. If you can't put anything at address 0, jumping through a NULL function pointer isn't as big a deal.

      With SELinux on, that variable is ignored, and you can map at address 0 to your heart's content.

    2. Re:SELinux? by Bandman · · Score: 3, Informative

      From http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html:

      -------------------
      Mitigation
      -----------------------
      Recent kernels with mmap_min_addr support may prevent exploitation if
      the sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr is set above zero. However, administrators
      should be aware that LSM based mandatory access control systems, such
      as SELinux, may alter this functionality.
      It should also be noted that all kernels up to 2.6.30.2 are vulnerable to
      published attacks against mmap_min_addr.

    3. Re:SELinux? by eparis · · Score: 4, Informative

      SELinux is currently weaker in this area for local users. It is stronger in this area for remote network facing daemons. See http://eparis.livejournal.com/ for all the details. Blanket statements in either direction on SELinux and NULL ptr exploits are wrong.

  10. World-wide Linux reboot party by adosch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oh how I wish 'ksplice' was more widely adopted in my deployed distro at work...

  11. Re:pwned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this were Windows, we'd first hear about it when our machines get owned by some malware, and then it would take months for a patch to be released. Since this is Linux, expect a fix in a week or less.

  12. Re:The REAL impact here by dissy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Within a few days, patches will be released to all the OSS vendors. Admins will be inconvenienced by a reboot.

    Even that last bit is avoidable, if you have Ksplice installed :D

  13. Guys? by eexaa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    where's the source?! I want to try it. On my box.

  14. It's from April? Really? by winkydink · · Score: 5, Informative

    Then why did Linus check in a patch today to fix it?

    http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

  15. Re:The REAL impact here by Bazman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How can you trust that a user hasn't used a privilege escalation to install a rootkit already? You can't trust apt-get, or yum, or anything.

    Fresh install time, surely? Back to the bare metal.

  16. Re:I can hear the OpenBSD users laughing already.. by frn123 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sure there are. And they are both laughing.

  17. Re:pwned by lukas84 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Expect a source fix with no regression testing in a week or less. Wait months for the big distribution makers (RedHat, Novell) to release it to the masses.

    Expect people manually rebuilding their kernel in panic, having machines rendered unbootable because they decided the 250$ bucks for the iLO Advanced license wasn't worth it since Linux never crashes, etc. pp.

    Face it: IT sucks. The OS matters little.

  18. Re:pwned by Bandman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ah, I miss 1999, too.

    Seriously, have you used a Windows machine at all in the past, say, decade?

    A _real_ Windows machine, not the crap they sell you at Best Buy. No? OK then.

  19. local... remote... by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As was stated before: if someone has a local account on your Windows machine, they already own you. You DO know the difference between local and remote exploits, right? I mean, NOBODY on Slashdot would go spouting off on topics they know nothing about just to score some points for their favorite OS.

    Yeah, this is a serious bug. But honestly, how many people are running real multi-user systems with multiple honest to God local users? Okay, I am, but I figure I'm probably in the minority nowadays.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:local... remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      nobody (the apache account) is a local user.

    2. Re:local... remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Local exploit in kernel + arbitary code execution exploit in network service = remote exploit.

      You know, like running WordPress.

      It would be quite an accomplishment to introduce a remote exploit directly in the kernel.

    3. Re:local... remote... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 2, Funny

      I broke into nobody's account and took a peek at their files. Look what I found:

      $ ls -l
      -rwx------ 1 nobody nobody 12542 1000-07-24 12:45 predict_spanish_inquisition

  20. Re:I can hear the OpenBSD users laughing already.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... I don't get it... Stallman uses Linux...

  21. Some distros less vulnerable by default by Bandman · · Score: 5, Informative

    From http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html:

    -------------------
    Mitigation
    -----------------------
    Recent kernels with mmap_min_addr support may prevent exploitation if
    the sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr is set above zero. However, administrators
    should be aware that LSM based mandatory access control systems, such
    as SELinux, may alter this functionality.
    It should also be noted that all kernels up to 2.6.30.2 are vulnerable to
    published attacks against mmap_min_addr.

    I have checked my default Ubuntu and CentOS/RHEL boxes, and both of them are set well above 0:

    root@Ubuntu:/proc/sys/vm# cat mmap_min_addr
    65536

    [root@CentOS /proc/sys/vm] cat mmap_min_addr
    65536

    [root@RHEL /proc/sys/vm] cat mmap_min_addr
    65536

    1. Re:Some distros less vulnerable by default by iggymanz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      on my Debian 5 (Lenny ) it's zero

    2. Re:Some distros less vulnerable by default by cyphercell · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    3. Re:Some distros less vulnerable by default by gfolkert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Debian Sid running:

      greg@maxime:~ [0] $ uname -a
      Linux maxime 2.6.31-rc4-686-bigmem #1 SMP Sat Aug 1 08:00:47 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux
      greg@maxime:~ [0] $ cd /proc/sys/vm/
      greg@maxime:/proc/sys/vm [0] $ cat mmap_min_addr
      4096

      How is that?

      --
      greg, REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
    4. Re:Some distros less vulnerable by default by sowth · · Score: 3, Informative

      dosemu also needs it to be set 0.

  22. Re:pwned by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well by that logic 99% of windows users haven't used a real windows machine either.

  23. Re:It's from April? Really? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    a severe security flaw in all 2.4 and 2.6 kernels since 2001

    April or not, I want to know why it's taken eight years to find this flaw.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  24. Re:pwned by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If this was Windows we'd never hear the beginning of it. How much local privilege escalation vulnerabilities normal windows users worry about? Are the remote vulnerabilities (and the ones that don't need to escalate, as run as the current user) the ones that get lots of publicity. And you got from time to time a number big enough of remote vulnerabilities there to consider them the only ones that matters.

    Of course, if you add a local privilege escalation to a some app remote vulnerability that enables to run code, even if is with low privileges, there you have a potential remote root exploit. Is something to care about, but odds are low that a lot of systems will be affected.

  25. Re:pwned by Bandman · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yeah, I know, I nearly cancelled the post after I wrote it.

    Desktop Windows /is/ Windows, but Windows Servers are far more inherently secure than Windows Desktops, simply by the way that they're operated. It was a bad comment.

  26. Re:pwned by dword · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course we'd never hear the end of it, because we paid a shitload of money for a system that would be vulnerable for months until MS would decide to release a patch that wouldn't conflict with the rest of the bloat. That wasn't always the case, but it's what happened most of the time when Windows (as an operating system) got pwned with an exploit like this. There are still tons of unpatched Windows computers infected with Blaster... as long as you still hear about Blaster, you'll still hear about the vulnerability. That's why you'd never hear the end of it.

  27. Re:I can hear the OpenBSD users laughing already.. by tres · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a theme of comments that occur every time another Windows vulnerability happens. It goes something like this:

    Windows FanboiIt doesn't matter. Marketshare marketshare marketshare blah blah business drivel Linux has no marketshare!

    It's ironic to now see the Linux 31337 in this meme; trying to redirect from security vulnerability to lack of marketshare by a competing OS.

    But I guess maybe it goes along with the whole tired 'BSD is dying' theme.

    --
    Notes From Under *nix: blas.phemo.us
  28. Re:The REAL impact here by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How can you trust that a user hasn't used a privilege escalation to install a rootkit already? You can't trust apt-get, or yum, or anything.

    How do you know that the CD image doesn't contain hacked software?

    How do you know that the compiler hasn't been hacked in with a hidden precompiled message?

    How do you know that the website with the MD5 summaries isn't a Man-In-The-Middle?

    At some point, you have to take a good look and decide that it's good enough. And the "compromise" position that you have to take with Linux is sooo much more secure than the Windows alternative. True, I don't know for *sure* that no local users have compromised the systems. But then, I never do, truthfully, anyway. But I do have some pretty strong assurances, and that's good enough for almost anyone.

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  29. This reminds me of why I use linux... by calmofthestorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because we fix it instead of hushing it up until it becomes fairly well known and then waiting a month to fix it.

    That said, it's nice to see the occasional vuln in Linux. Helps shut up the fanbois and keep everybody sharp. Because while under many eyes, all bugs are shallow, that only works if the eyes are actually looking.

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
  30. Re:pwned by Real1tyCzech · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The flaw has been around since 2001.

    There goes your theory. ;)

  31. RHEL is safe? by neurovish · · Score: 3, Informative

    It looks like RHEL's mmap_min_addr (cat /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr) is set to 65536 by default. According to the vulnerability posting:

    Recent kernels with mmap_min_addr support may prevent exploitation if
    the sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr is set above zero. However, administrators
    should be aware that LSM based mandatory access control systems, such
    as SELinux, may alter this functionality.

    So, if you're running stock RHEL 5.3 without SELinux, you should be safe?

    1. Re:RHEL is safe? by neurovish · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are probably running a kernel that does not have support for vm.mmap_min_addr.
      I'm not sure when it was added, but I have kernel 2.6.23 on my desktop and don't have it.

      Adding it to /proc would do nothing if the kernel doesn't support it.

    2. Re:RHEL is safe? by Athanasius · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just having mmap_min_addr and setting it to a page or more above 0 isn't good enough. It also depends very much on the exact kernel version you're running. 2.6.30.2 had a problem with both SELinux and personalities making it possible to get around this. 2.6.30.3 fixed both I believe.

      See http://lwn.net/Articles/342420/ for more about which versions are vulnerable and why (and, yes, I'm the same Athanasius linked to in the "This change is not enough for some users, who have requested the ability to turn off the personality feature altogether. " bit, if I could get my arse more in gear I'd have coded up a sysctl/personality patch by now).

  32. Re:pwned by AigariusDebian · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd rather expect a patch within 4 hours (cutting functionality) and a real fix within 24-48 hours and then I would expect most big distributions to have fixed packages out in less than 5 days (linux kernel takes a while to compile). More rapid distros might even have two fixes - a fast fix within 24 hours and a real fix in less than a week after that.

  33. Re:pwned by dword · · Score: 4, Informative

    Replying to myself, with additional information for the OP: And how long have we heard about this? We're already so used to Windows exploits that we don't even care much about them...

  34. Re:pwned by AigariusDebian · · Score: 4, Informative

    And if any of us would have read the article before posting we would know that a typical one-line fix is right there in the article and has been commited into the kernel mainline yesterday.

  35. Hide teh Lunix by tepples · · Score: 2

    Seriously, how hard is it for the OS to just blow up whatever program is running if it tries to access the memory location NULL, period?

    That depends on whether you're running this OS on a PC or a C64. Programs on a C64 are expected to access memory-mapped I/O registers at $0000 and $0001.

  36. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 5, Funny

    Aw, cheer up little guy. I thought it was a very nice comment.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  37. "Many eyes", but all of them nearsighted? by Petersko · · Score: 5, Funny

    And from all across the globe came the sound of geeks crying, for they would soon see their beloved "uptime" reset to zero.

    1. Re:"Many eyes", but all of them nearsighted? by imrehg · · Score: 2, Informative

      And from all across the globe came the sound of geeks crying, for they would soon see their beloved "uptime" reset to zero.

      Except if they are proper geeks, they don't have to reboot to patch kernel, do they? ;)

  38. Re:It's from April? Really? by Verdatum · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yeah, that was my fault. Sorry about that. I knew it was there, I just kept putting off fixing it or telling anyone.

  39. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, hardened windows is reasonably secure. After you spend an hour or two installing all the third party software and configuration settings you need to prevent being owned in under five minutes. Or you can just install Ubuntu.

    Yes, Ubuntu. Which apparently you don't need to configure at all to get owned.

    Seriously, in a story about how trivial it is to get code to execute as root you post a comment about how much more secure Ubuntu is than hardened Windows?

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  40. Re:Patch will be out right about...now by compro01 · · Score: 2, Informative

    You could measure it with a stop watch.

    Indeed. Patch was committed 16 minutes after that blog post and 3 hours, 57 minutes before this story hit the front page.

    http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=e694958388c50148389b0e9b9e9e8945cf0f1b98

    --
    upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  41. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Buzz off, little worker bee, its simply not the case: this happens once every, say, couple to four years in Linux. Microsoft has one of this bugs every couple of sundays.

    Citation needed.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  42. Local vs. remote by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which part of "local" are you not understanding?

    "Local" doesn't necessarily imply physical access. It simply means that you have gained permission to run arbitrary code as a user on the given system. For example, if you have logged into an SSH account that is local to a given machine, you are local. So first you use a remote exploit to gain local privilege, then you use a local exploit to elevate from there.

  43. Re:pwned by calmofthestorm · · Score: 2, Informative

    Um...are you referring to a physical attack? No unencrypted machine is even remotely resistant to that.

    This particular vulnerability probably affects ubuntu (depending on the mmap status; certain default settings can actually prevent this), but I'm speaking generally.

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
  44. Re:The REAL impact here by rjstanford · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't have any users.

    Probably don't need to install the patch then. Or keep the machine powered on, for that matter...

    --
    You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
  45. Re:pwned by timepilot · · Score: 2, Informative

    Committed to the mainline kernel != Available as an update to [CentOS|RedHat|Debian]

  46. But it was there the whole time by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think that's his point. You have, in fact, been able to escalate without privilege for a long time. It wasn't known you could, but that doesn't mean the bug wasn't there. It was "obscure". The reason Linux was secure from this kind of arbitrary escalation was because people didn't know the trick to doing it, not because the security was such it couldn't be done.

    I'm not saying I agree with the GP 100% or anything, but he raises an interesting point. One of the oft lauded advantages of open source is the "many eyes" thing. It is claimed that there aren't major holes since so many people can look at the code. Well, this demonstrates that isn't always the case. This is a LONG standing bug. However, despite the people looking at the code, it wasn't noticed. Only now has someone discovered it.

  47. Vulnerable by design by 0xABADC0DA · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In normal configs, Linux is vulnerable to this kind of problem by design because it runs unsafe programs and then for efficiency the kernel also has direct access to it's memory plus the memory for a process doing a syscall. And it's not just a NULL pointer, and preventing maps for page zero doesn't solve the problem... it just means you need to find a bug where you can corrupt a function pointer to point to mappable space.

    What this demonstrates is that the cost of isolating programs from each other by using separate memory spaces has a much higher cost than commonly understood. It either has a ~10%-20% overhead and is insecure by design (kernel map includes calling process memory space) -or- it is far slower than even that, but safe (kernel memory is completely separate from process). Computers are already faster than many users need... maybe it's finally time for an OS with a single memory space, like JavaOS or jxos, or even Singularity.

    1. Re:Vulnerable by design by True+Grit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In normal configs, Linux is vulnerable

      The problem you're describing is not an issue just for Linux but most current 'conventional' OSes. On any OS with a shared memory space as you described, if you can a) 'hack' a pointer, and b) move or map your own code to where that 'hacked' pointer is now pointing to, and c) combine this with some other exploit/bug to get elevated privileges in the code you inserted earlier and take immediate advantage of this, then you can theoretically pwn the system whatever its OS (as always, it depends on the specific circumstances).

      As you say, this is fundamentally a weakness of the hardware-assisted approach to process isolation, because in a paradigm that allows modifiable pointers in userland code, neither the hardware nor the OS can ever *really* know what the pointers are actually pointing to.

      It either has a ~10%-20% overhead and is insecure by design (kernel map includes calling process memory space)

      Not sure I'd go as far as 'by design', at the very least its not an easy exploit to accomplish (not withstanding this latest problem), since it depends on finding at least one bug/flaw in the OS to let you do the first step of 'hacking' a pointer (and usually at least one more bug/flaw to be able to do something really dastardly), but yes, there is an overhead, and its certainly not a perfect model (what is?).

      maybe it's finally time for an OS with a single memory space, like JavaOS or jxos, or even Singularity.

      If they can get it right, absolutely.

      In fairness however, these OSes accomplish their goal by restricting you to a type-safe language(s), in effect, they (try to) avoid the problem of pointers being 'hacked' by eliminating the presence of writable/modifiable pointers that *can* be 'hacked' within running code. They use the strictness of the language as the protection mechanism, rather than hardware assistance. This however is not trivially easy to accomplish either (see jxos and their 'Isolates' mechanism they're having to shim into their system), which is why these OSes remain work-in-progress research projects. Then, once they do get it right, we won't be able to just 'port' all our current software over and take off, nope, all the software we use now will have to be rewritten in a type-safe language that that OS supports (or thrown out!), so the switching over process won't happen anytime soon. :(

      It is a 'cool' idea though, if for no other reason than it avoids the overhead of the hardware assisted model, and eliminating modifiable pointers (at the source code level) in code will allow smarter static/jit compilers to safely do *far* more aggressive optimizations than they can do now, as modifiable pointers (especially if they can also be aliased) are the single biggest headache for any optimizing compiler.

  48. Re:pwned by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So wait, the "exploit" is to run untrusted code as admin? That is not a privilege escalation attack. How is this different than running any malicious code?

  49. Re:pwned by alexborges · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well its not trivial. This is not a remote exploit, its local.

    --
    NO SIG
  50. Re:pwned by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well - I'm searching for Linux botnets that have been created by this exploit. Searching . . . searching . . . searching . . .

    Dang, I'm not finding any.

    How about Windows botnets? WOW, will you just look at all of them? http://www.secureworks.com/research/threats/topbotnets/

    I sure wish Linux would get off their dead arses and patch this problem. Sure would be nice if they can get it done in less than a month or six, like Windows!! Oh - wait - what? Linus committed a patch correcting this issue on 13th August 2009.

    http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=e694958388c50148389b0e9b9e9e8945cf0f1b98

    I guess I'll hold off on pushing the panic button. I see no need to "upgrade" to Windoze, LMAO

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  51. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's right. It's a trivial local exploit. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  52. Re:pwned by Tacvek · · Score: 2, Informative

    Modern windows has many levels of "admin".

    But let us say that the admin accounts are are now by design almost the same as regular user accounts. By default they should not be able to harm the system. If you deliberately elevate an application to full rights (equivalent to using sudo to run the program) then it can do anything.

    The problem here is that an unelevated application can just inject code directly into the memory space of certain other unelevated applications which can elevate themselves at will without user interaction.

    This is a broken design. It is equivalent to having some normal applications that can just call setuid(0) and be granted full root rights without any user input, and then having a way for other normal applications to span a new thread in the other process running arbitrary code.

    --
    Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
  53. Re:pwned by Jerry · · Score: 4, Informative

    In a week or less?

    Linus already patched it.
    http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=e694958388c50148389b0e9b9e9e8945cf0f1b98

    He wrote it at 8:28AM and committed it at 10:57AM this morning. Expect to see it in your repositories tomorrow, if not sooner.

    --

    Running with Linux for over 20 years!

  54. Re:pwned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is the windows newbs one chance to stick it to the Unix guys, don't fuck this day up for them!

  55. Re:The REAL impact here by Exception+Duck · · Score: 2, Funny

    You must be mistaken. rjstanford is the computer.

  56. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Informative

    Possibly, for sufficiently loose definitions of "much more".

    Linux kernel 2.0-2.6: 279 Secunia advisories, 473 vulnerabilities

    Windows 2000 Server + Windows Server 2003 Standard + Windows Server 2008: 472 Secunia advisories, 580 vulnerabilities

    It's also worth noting that kernel 2.6 alone contains 186 advisories for 352 vulnerabilities with 6% unpatched. Windows Server 2008 contains 40 advisories for 82 vulnerabilities with 0% unpatched.

    So there's the math. Keep in mind that's comparing an entire server OS with just the Linux kernel.

    We are now that picky...

    This is Slashdot. We've always been that picky.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  57. Re:pwned by arndawg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Parent is not a troll. Local Exploit still means a bug in firefox can leave your box totally "PWND!" A local exploit is more dangerous for a desktop computer than a server. but is still a very real concern.

  58. Re:pwned by alexborges · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thats what I get for sending you to do the math. Im still too lazy to go check it out and look at methods, years and the rest.

    ||sarcasm|| I take your analysis as true and hereby declare that windows has been exploited lesser than linux, has less malware against and is inherently less prone to attack than linux or turning into a braindead spamzombie than linux. ||end sarcasm||

    Happy?

    --
    NO SIG
  59. Re:pwned by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Funny

    Windows Servers are far more inherently secure than Windows Desktops, simply by the way that they're operated.

    Wait, what?

  60. If Windows is your metric by synthesizerpatel · · Score: 2, Funny

    Linux is ready for the desktop!

  61. Re:pwned by magarity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How much local privilege escalation vulnerabilities normal windows users worry about?
     
    They probably don't worry about it at all because the vast majority of Windows users log in and run with an administrative level account in the first place.

  62. Re:pwned by beav007 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Of course, as this only affects 2.4 and 2.6, users of Debian stable should have no reason to worry.

    See? All that testing is worth it after all!

  63. Eyes Wide Shut by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because while under many eyes, all bugs are shallow, that only works if the eyes are actually looking.

    For eight long years no one was looking. Tell me again how the geek spins this story in a way that inspires confidence in Linux and FOSS?

  64. Re:pwned by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    (Sigh) I miss KESU and the constrained addressibility of ring-fenced instruction sets. Oh, VMS, Oh my heart!

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  65. This is a flaw in x86 by pclminion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This actually is a flaw in x86. Under the x86 segmentation model, it is impossible to transfer control from ring0 code to lower-privileged code. This is precisely to prevent this type of attack, where you can trick the kernel into calling a function inside user-controlled memory. (You can, of course, transfer control from ring0 to a less privileged ring, but it's far more deliberate process).

    However, Linux doesn't really use the segmentation system all that much. Instead it relies on the paging model to enforce the user/supervisor distinction. Problem is, the x86 does NOT prevent code running from a supervisor page from transferring control to a user page. Intel's excuse for this is that "you can use segmentation to achieve that protection" but as we all know, nobody uses segmentation for shit.

    Let me say this all over again. The bug is not in the kernel -- it was performing a NULL check which gcc was optimizing away. It is not a bug in gcc, because according to the ANSI C standard, NULL cannot be dereferenced, and therefore a dereference followed by a NULL-check is redundant and can be optimized. It is a bug in the kernel build system (for not setting the proper flags to tell gcc that's it's not compiling ANSI C code, it's compiling kernel code) and it is also a bug in the CPU itself (for allowing direct transfer of control from supervisor pages to user pages)

  66. Re:pwned by turbidostato · · Score: 2, Informative

    "A common defensive technique. X isn't the REAL X, so it doesn't count!"

    That's called the "no true scotsman" fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman).

  67. Your new math is very flawed. by WebCowboy · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's also worth noting that kernel 2.6 alone contains 186 advisories for 352 vulnerabilities with 6% unpatched. Windows Server 2008 contains 40 advisories for 82 vulnerabilities with 0% unpatched.

    Your comparison is very flawed and meaningless. Linux kernel 2.6.0test was released in 2003--IT HAS BEEN AROUND 5 YEARS LONGER THAN SERVER 2008! If you want your math to actually make a real point try integrating the vulnerability rate of each OS over the same time domain. Simply put, you have to look at the combined vulnerabilities reported by Windwos Server 2003 AND 2008 when comparing against Linux 2.6.x kernel based OSes.

    More proper numbers for Windows would be 242 advisories for 341 vulnerabilites. Slightly lower vulnerability count but quite a few more advisories. 6% of these vulnerabilities also remain unresolved. These numbers do not show Microsoft having any meaningful advantage in quality over the Linux kernel

    And, to be more fair still, you should compare OS to OS as you said, rather than OS to kernal. For RHEL5 OS the stats are 272 advisories for 828 vulnerabilities and zero unresolved (suggests that one advisory and pne patch probably solves many separately counted vulnerabilities--perhaps because Linux-based OSes leverage shared libraries far more than Windows?) Keep in mind, however, that Comparing SLES or RHEL strictly speaking wouldn't be a complete comparison either, because in Linux OS distributions many applications are included where the equivalent in Windows would be separate (possibly extra-cost) add-ons.

    Furthermore only counts are considered above, with no factor for intensity. Windows server 2008 has more than double the rate of "highly critical" vulnerabilities (35%) than does RHEL5 (16%) and it is well known that Linux exploits are far less likely to be directly remotely exploitable than is the case for Windows exploits.

    Yes, MSFT has made great strides in closing the quality and security gaps in ther server OSes (quality is still sorely lacking in their desktop offerings), but even if Windows was perfect I'd still prefer a Linux OS or OpenBSD:

    * can't afford Ballmer'$ ga$
    * Windows is closed--I don't trust what nobody but the vendoar/author can see. Secunia et al can only report what they can observe from behaviour. As in this reported Linux exploit, third-parties can perform extremely detailed analysis with source code at hand, often releasing the patch to plug the exploit right along with the exploit itself.
    * licensing and actrivation take a lot of time and resources that serve no practical purpose than to enforce an increasingly questionable business model--Activation is pure bulls**t. I've wasted FAR too much time on clients issues where the root cause of functional deficiencies was improperly activated/licensed closed software (be it Windows or others). I've HAD it with closed crippleware.
    * I like to tinker. I like to build. The playing field is for more flat in Free software land than in Windows land. I can reconfigure kernel modules, choose which web server, DNS server, email server I want to use and evaluate them truly on their merits. In Windows, if you think IIS or Exchange or MS DNS Stinks, you can try the alternatives but they always seem hobbled by comparison. MSFT never lets third parties play by the same rules, especially when server apps are considered "windows componenets" like with IIS and DNS. They get to leap MSFT's long-professed "chinese wall" to get total access to OS internals info others do not have. ANYONE who wants to write server apps on a Free platform has the same access to info.

    1. Re:Your new math is very flawed. by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your comparison is very flawed and meaningless.

      Clearly, and you could have stopped there. I wasn't trying to make a major point and get a +5 comment, he told me to look it up on Secunia and so I did. There are about 25 versions of Windows listed there, and I didn't even include XP or any consumer OS, so obviously it doesn't mean a lot.

      That's not even considering the fact that one bug that lasted over several versions ends up counting as more than one.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  68. Re:pwned by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 3, Informative

    XP Home Edition, Unpatched 12% (27 of 229 Secunia advisories), Most Critical Unpatched: Moderately critical.

    Ubuntu 9.04, Unpatched 0% (0 of 50 Secunia advisories).

    Keep in mind that Ubuntu is also affected by standard apps like OpenOffice.org, Firefox etc. If you're going to pick server versions to prove a point...

  69. Re:pwned by maxwell+demon · · Score: 4, Funny

    But it wasn't a real "no true scotsman" fallacy. After all, it didn't involve a scotsman. :-)

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  70. Re:pwned by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought these nonsensical cherry-picking comparisons using Secunia or any other site that doesn't track Linux, were dead?

    I hadn't heard that, let me see if Netcraft confirms it.

    Linux 2.0 : 1 Secunia advisory, 0 vulnerability
    Linux 2.5 : 2 Secunia advisory, 0 vulnerability
    I can be kind too :
    Linux 2.2 : 8 Secunia advisory, 5 vulnerability

    People have been quick to point out that it wasn't a good comparison to include 2.0 or 2.2 because of how old they are. I frankly thought it would make the numbers for Linux look better if they covered 5 versions vs. 2 versions. 2.4 and 2.6 between them have 268 advisories for 468 vulnerabilities, I thought if I bumped that up a little to 279/473 and included 3 other versions it would be more kind to Linux. So that's where my agenda is.

    I frankly find it funny that I asked a guy to back up his claims, quoted stats from Secunia (which he asked me to do, by the way), and now people assume I have an anti-Linux, pro-Microsoft agenda. That's not even remotely true, I haven't even stated my opinion on either OS (in this thread, before today, anyway). I've mentioned in a couple other replies today that I consider Linux to be the superior OS of the two, but people have become very defensive.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black