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Dell Says High Linux Netbook Returns a "Non-Issue"

Posted by kdawson on from the data-trumping-bluster dept.

Michiel Roos notes that at this week's OpenSource World, a Dell executive deflated Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines. "Todd Finch, Dell senior product marketing manager, said the number of Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks. He categorized the matter of returns as a 'non-issue.' 'They are making something of nothing,' he said of Microsoft's claims."

66 of 324 comments (clear)

  1. IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The end of the article plugs Dell's IdeaStorm which has these as top ideas:

    1. 115170: Pre-Installed OpenOffice | alternative to MS Works & MS Office
    2. 105120: Have Firefox pre-installed as default browser
    3. 103950: No Extra Software Option
    4. 101110: Pre-Installed Linux | Ubuntu | Fedora | OpenSUSE | Multi-Boot
    5. 86980: Provide Linux Drivers for all your Hardware
    6. 72510: No OS Preloaded
    7. 53180: Sell Linux PCs Worldwide - not only the United States
    8. 46690: Stripped down, fast Linux Box
    9. 39970: coreboot (formerly LinuxBIOS) instead of proprietary BIOS

    So maybe only open source users know about IdeaStorm? Regardless, Dell is staring down hundreds of thousands of users looking for more options that should honestly be very easy to provide. So if the returns are a "non-issue" and are similar to Windows returns then what's the deal, Dell?

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I suspect that, while the enthusiasm on ideastorm is real, it isn't wildly representative.

      Think about the people who are actually passionate about computer related stuff: You've got the Linux and/or FOSS guys, the hardcore gamers, the Mac-heads, some true Microsofties, and that's about it. Almost everybody else uses them, and wants them to work; but isn't going to spend their leisure time posting on some Dell messageboard about it.

      Of those groups, the hardcore gamers and the Mac-heads wouldn't give Dell the time of day if they were on fire(in aggregate, obviously there are gamers with Dells; and the Mini-9 hackintosh crew; but the more passionately you are a member of those groups, the less likely you are to be running a Dell), while the Microsofties can already get all the MS software they want from Dell, so they have no reason to complain. Linux/FOSS enthusiasts are pretty much the only ones I'd expect to show up.

    2. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by operator_error · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would 100,000 people [with valid Dell site user-registrations] who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

      100,000 registered folks seems compelling to me, and most anyone listening, Dell. I tried to click the up arrow, but user-registration is required first.

      Still, I think M$ forces Dell's & Asus' (etc.) hand by hidden fees & bulk-discounts related to the M$ tax.

    3. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by mpapet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Dell is staring down hundreds of thousands of users looking for more options that should honestly be very easy to provide.

      I can tell you from personal experience, none of those things are 'easy.' Yes, some of them are very easy for you and I. But we're talking about a huge unwieldy corporate machine where every good intention/new idea from the bottom of the org chart is unwelcome and punished.

      FYI, for most people at any sufficiently large organization, the customer is at the very bottom of the org chart.

      If the CEO drove these changes without endless, mind-numbing discussion and rooms full of people notifying her of the 'dangers' it would be a different story. But that's just not how it works at that level.

      Coreboot would be at the very top of my list. From there, the user is free-er to do what they please with the computer. Words cannot describe how important that project is to the future of computing. Please, go help coreboot out.

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    4. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Funny

      you did not put the rest on the list...

      They get wierd after #15...

      16. Sell it with a free pony.
      17. Can I get mine in plaid?
      18. I want fur everywhere on it.
      19. Get rid of the keyboard and put a mouse in the middle.
      20. PONIES!!!!!!!
      21. Stop making them so confusing, What it is with having the whole alphabet on the keyboard.
      22. Send it via Email instead of FedEx.
      23. Make it waterproof, I'm on my third one because of spills.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by fortyonejb · · Score: 5, Informative

      You say that, but did you look at the numbers on that page? The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

      Before your misinformation gets too far, a little clarification, Dell's IdeaStorm increments by 10 for each vote, meaning it has received 10,000 upvotes, not 100,000.

    6. Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Coreboot is hard, but Dell has the bad habit of installing thousands of software on every machine it sells. Adding Firefox and OpenOffice to the list seems pretty straightforward. OpenOffice and Firefox marketshare are far bigger than the computer enthusiast. Many people know that open office is the "Microsoft Office that is free". The fact that Dell leaves so many clients unsatisfied for a feature that is easy to add is a strong indication that the issues are contractual and commercial, not technical.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  2. Summary by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Informative

    Essentially most of the initial high return rate was due to unclear advertising leading people to believe they were buying a window machine and getting linux. Dell has cleared up the advertising to make sure people know what they are buying and the high return rate has stopped.

    1. Re:Summary by CannonballHead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So in other words, now we should pay attention to sales rates of Windows vs. Linux, not just return rates?

    2. Re:Summary by HermMunster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The rates of sales are not relevant in that Microsoft is a monopoly, one convicted of criminal predatory practices, which forced hardware manufacturers into illegal contracts to exclude. That gave them the monopoly, and in case you don't know what a monopoly is and how hard it is to compete with a monopoly you might want to check up on that.

      The only relevant statistic that I can see is one that tracks the rate of behavioral change as it relates to buying an alternative. Not in the number of sales but in the increase of sales of the alternative non-monopolistic products.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    3. Re:Summary by sbeckstead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A few billion of MS's profits. Well they went somewhere, just not to M$. And whether MS fanboys want to admit it or not what MS did is criminal.

      --
      Why bother
    4. Re:Summary by sbeckstead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hardly worth the effort to reply but "What?" I don't think any of those words mean what you think they do.
      In what way were the corporate convictions against MS "so-called"? They were, I assure you, quite real. Remember that a corporation can be convicted of a crime and no one go to jail. However fines are a very real sanction against a criminal corporation.
      A political stunt no, not even close. MS was convicted of illegal restraint of trade and mis-use of a monopoly. Don't believe me look it up. I may not have the exact statutes that they violated but violate them they did. There is nothing "so-called" about them.

      --
      Why bother
  3. Playing with words by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:

    Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

    The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

    That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

    1. Re:Playing with words by HermMunster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you are missing the point. Dell says they are not receiving returns except at the same rate. He means that linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate as windows netbook returns. Now, Dell is the company that sells and accepts the returns. Microsoft has nothing to do with it. Microsoft has no first hand knowledge. Since they can't count Linux returns, as it has nothing to do with Windows returns, Microsoft would be clueless except maybe by receiving information from Microsoft funded reports.

      Bottom line is that Dell is giving facts whereas Microsoft is giving conjecture.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    2. Re:Playing with words by Angst+Badger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

      Well, maybe. The open source ecosystem has long since become large enough to be self-sustaining, so it's questionable how much it matters that Microsoft still has a majority of the market share. If MS went bankrupt tomorrow, it would be a minor win for Linux but mostly a huge win for Apple, and Apple's behavior as a company suggests strongly that they would be no less unpleasant as a near-monopoly than Microsoft currently is.

      The important thing to me is that I have multiple free (in both senses) alternatives to MS and that those are not likely to go away in the foreseeable future. Would I like to buy a laptop without the Microsoft tax. Sure, but then, I pretty much already can, since I usually buy year-old off-lease corporate laptops at a steep discount -- being neither a hardcore gamer nor a videographer, most machines have been more than fast enough for everything else for several years now.

      If the whole Free/Open Source Software movement was a battle for our freedom, we already won, and won decisively. The battle against Microsoft's very existence? Who cares? Odds are, Microsoft will be around for a long time to come, and waiting for it to die is like waiting for Apple or one of the *BSDs or any other stable niche offering to die: time better spent having actual fun and getting real work done.

      Besides, it's not like Dell's products or their customer support are very good to begin with. When I can buy generic, standard laptop parts to build my own laptop as well as I can build my own desktop boxes, then I'll get excited. Until then, the token gestures of companies selling proprietary, closed hardware are really nothing to become overly concerned about.

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    3. Re:Playing with words by DrJimbo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually. Technically. The article says the same amount of returns for each... and I bet they sell a lot more windows machines, still...

      From TFA:

      ... we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux.

      So technically the article says return rate. Earlier the (very short) FA talked about the number of returns being the same but I believe that the explicit mention of rate clears up any possible ambiguity. A marketing manager might easily use the word number when he meant numbers or rate but his use of return rate seems completely unambiguous.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    4. Re:Playing with words by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:

      Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

      The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

      That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

      From TFA: "we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux." So, yes Dell has disputed Microsoft's assertion. A return rate 4 to 5 times higher would be a significant difference.
      So, it is not a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:Playing with words by rtfa-troll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which exact part of

      we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux

      is it that you have difficulty reading. What he's saying is that Windows machines return at the approximately same rate for technical problems as Linux machines return due to both technical problems and misunderstandings. This implies that if they can improve their communication then the return rate of Linux machines will be significantly lower than the return rate for Windows machines. To be honest I have difficulty working out why. Surely the hardware should be pretty much the same? Is it possible that the rate of malware infection at the beginning of a modern, up to date, Windows system's life is really high enough to account for the extra Windows returns?

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    6. Re:Playing with words by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you are majorly missing the point.

      It's a bunch of people that are ordering a Duck dinner at a resturant and returning it because it has duck in it.

      The returns are from people too dumb to read what they are ordering, clicking blindly and then sending it back because they did not pay attention.

      I bet a large number of them say "Oh, I though when it said it runs linux it means some new game on the internet...."

      This is the way of the consumer, People that wanted linux and ordered linux are happy with their linux. Any linux returns are due to low IQ consumers not paying attention.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Playing with words by agnosticnixie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, the initial high rates data came from MSI - they slapped a default install of OpenSUSE on it, didn't bother to make sure the drivers worked, and sold that.

    8. Re:Playing with words by mvdwege · · Score: 2

      I think it would behoove you to read more than the first few paragraphs of an article before spouting off.

      Did you miss this bit?

      we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux.

      So no, he is not talking absolute returns. He is talking return rates. Perhaps this is a case of unclear reporting, but it is not so clear-cut as you pretend.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  4. Here's another fact. by iCantSpell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That fact that a multi-billion dollar corporation is making up lies about free software on a daily basis is just another sign of true weakness.

    1. Re:Here's another fact. by Draek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe you misunderstood the GP's point about a "multi-billion dollar corporation" to mean Dell, rather than Microsoft.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    2. Re:Here's another fact. by rxan · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well.. well... gad damn!

  5. Not Surprised.. by schon · · Score: 5, Informative

    ASUS said the same thing about the EeePC return rates.

    As far as I can tell, the "higher return rates" source is MSI, who shipped a borked distro. Everyone else seems to be doing swimmingly.

  6. Re:in your face microsoft! by yourexhalekiss · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to Dell, and TFA, Linux netbooks don't have high returns vs. windows netbooks.

  7. Not surprised by ciroknight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People buying these machines know they ship with Ubuntu. It says so right on the website, and the button you click, and repeats it when you checkout. People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.

    Now, if only this would rub off on the rest of the business sectors. I'd love to buy a new Studio 15 laptop with the option for Ubuntu. It'd save me 45 minutes formatting, reinstalling Ubuntu and reconfiguring the system the way I like. But unfortunately their selection for machines with Ubuntu only includes the crap Inspiron line (the Ford Fiesta of laptops).

    --
    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
    1. Re:Not surprised by rxan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.

      That's a nice sounding way to spin it. But in TFA it actually says they were buying them because they were cheaper, not because they had Ubuntu.

      Normal people don't know what Ubuntu is. They don't know what Windows is. They just want cheap computers and assume that they all have that familiar OS.

  8. Troll? or data... you decide. by starglider29a · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wonder what the return rate is of Macs is? Esp from Best Buy?

    1. Re:Troll? or data... you decide. by Scragglykat · · Score: 4, Funny

      I didn't think you could return a Mac without first signing a legal document binding you to not speak of the return to anyone for the rest of your life... guess we'll never know. :o)

    2. Re:Troll? or data... you decide. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dear user,

      Thank you for your question. Unfortunately, your question was not sleek, white, and shiny, so we are unable to process your request.

      Kisses,
      Apple Customer Service

    3. Re:Troll? or data... you decide. by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I worked for WorstBuy Canada, every time a new model Mac would come out. I knew I would be seeing a pile of Mac returns starting in about a week. They would have lots of generic faults listed as the reason for the return, but 95% of them I wiped the drive, reinstalled the software and right back to the store.
      I used to think of it as "Returned because my pirated copy of Office doesn't work."

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
  9. Re:in your face microsoft! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The people who return Linux netbooks do so because they can't find the big blue "e" on the desktop. To hell with them, I say.

    Linux is fucking king now. Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters. The strong survive and run or migrate to Linux, the weak do not live on because they are cuckolded by Linux users.

    We, the Linux users, are fucking king...no, GODS. We are the gods who demand sacrifice! Ha. Ha ha. HahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

    -- Ethanol-fueled

  10. Same Number or Same percentage? by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Funny

    Incredibly vague wording there that means his quote can be interpreted either way. Windows machines outsell Linux ones so if they're experiencing the same number of returns, it indicates people are less happy with the Windows one. Did he really mean same percentage or same number?

    Also, given that this was a Dell rep at an Open Source show, he wasn't exactly going to go "yeah, Linux hasn't really been working for us, it sucks, we'll be switching to Windows".

    1. Re:Same Number or Same percentage? by dwinks616 · · Score: 2, Informative

      HP in fact sells quite a few computers with Linux pre-installed. In fact, my sister just bought one of the HP Mini Mi computers, and bought it configured exactly the same as the Windows version for $50 less. On a 10.1" screen, Atom processor, low-end Intel graphics machine, exactly WHAT benifit does getting XP have? Certainly not games, as the machine won't play them, not even 5 year old ones, not even close. Does Facebook or Myspace function better in Firefox for windows than it does in Firefox for Linux? Nope. In fact, the opposite is true, as Linux uses less system resources, and thusly has more to use on Firefox. Oh, yea, you can't install MS Office 2007 on Linux...but why the hell would you install $250+ of office software on a netbook that doesn't even cost $250?? Photoshop, etc all fall under the "why install software costing many times the cost of the hardware on such a low-end machine" category.

  11. So they creatively interpreted the numbers? by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh noes, how could they!

    This will put a serious dent in their excellent credibility track record..

  12. Re:in your face microsoft! by HermMunster · · Score: 5, Funny

    Me thinks he's been nipping at the ethanol a bit too much and it's not even noon.

    --
    You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
  13. Microsoft is fighting back by alen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    if anyone hasn't noticed, Apple and Microsoft have been playing very nice together since last year.

      Apple has licensed ActiveSync for the iphone and MobileMe
    there is Exchange 2007 integration into Snow Leopard
    New MS Office for the Mac will have an Outlook client for the first time with full Exchange integration

    I think MS is playing nice with Apple to get back at Dell and HP for the netbook linux thing. If HP and Dell want to ship linux PC's, then MS is going to help Apple poach Dell's most profitable customers

    1. Re:Microsoft is fighting back by Hyppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That must be exactly why Microsoft has the astoundingly successful "You find it, you keep it" ad campaign going, with Dell and HP laptops prominently featured.

    2. Re:Microsoft is fighting back by alen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and Apple seems to not want to compete in the desktop space. macbook pro's and imacs are made of the same internal parts and Apple seems content selling the same PC at ridiculous mark ups to it's niche market. the way everything is integrated on the motherboard today and the fact that it's very easy to build a consumer level hackintosh it shouldn't be a big deal for Apple to sell a desktop system that's cheaper than the imac's laptop internals.

    3. Re:Microsoft is fighting back by Hyppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh... I run an Exchange server, and every WinMo phone in the office is happily accessing it. Calendar, contacts, and everything.

  14. Surprised? by FreonTrip · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And here we see Microsoft making messy and untenable assertions to the detriment of its ostensibly valuable business partners. My charitable side is prone to thinking that these moves are just oblivious on Microsoft's part, but the side that's been reading Slashdot for a decade suggests that they still think they're too big to be affected by their own irked customers... and it's happy to see that notion countered more and more these days. Next slide.

  15. just think by flahwho · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People who use Linux use it because they CHOOSE to. On the contrary most people who use Windows do so because they're forced to.

    1. Re:just think by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're probably correct in pointing out that they make a choice. Whether they make an informed choice is another matter. I doubt there are many non-techies that truly make an informed choice about what OS they intend to use. I doubt that usage percentage has anything to do with what system is actually better and more to do with what they use at work or school or what their neighbor who is "good with computers" thinks.

  16. Re:in your face microsoft! by micheas · · Score: 2, Funny

    It was rejected by slashcode.

    --
    Work bio at MMWD
  17. Re:in your face microsoft! by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Problem is he was not drinking ethanol.. Methanol.. He's gone raving mad....

    Dang it, now he's drinking the salt water from the reef tank in the lobby. STOP THAT! I gotta go and try and catch him before the boss get's back.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  18. Typical. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Being grabbed and screaming to the cold reality that many people out there hate to be constrained to Windows.

    People keep trying to explain what has become now pretty obvious: Linux is mainstream.

    It is high time companies and people interested in computing wake up to this simple reality.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  19. Re:It does not matter by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time.

    No they don't. You're just trying to add to the mindless anti-Linux hysteria.

    All of these are quite suitable for the average user and in many cases FAR
    SUPERIOR to the default Lemming option. Linux multimedia software in
    particular is used to bail out both Windows and MacOS from usability and
    functionality issues.

    Time to find a new FUD talking point. "Linux multi-media" is over in this respect.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  20. Re:It does not matter by element-o.p. · · Score: 4, Informative

    What we should do, is to focus our efforts on make Linix and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being....Lets work on these so that if one takes the Linux plunge, that person gets pleasantly surprised.

    Have you looked at one of the Dell netbooks with Linux on it? We bought two Mini-9's for testing where I work; I got one, and one of the other network admins got the other. The things are awesome, except for a couple of minor gripes:

    1) A couple of tools that I expected (sshd, slocate, rsync) aren't available on the install or the on-line package repository, since it's a slightly lobotomized Dell-specific version of Ubuntu that's installed on the Mini-9;
    2) The software update site that Synaptic syncs from worked for about a month, then stopped working (I haven't bothered to call Dell to ask what happened, but I probably should so I can keep the OS updated);
    3) It occasionally will not resume after suspending.

    Item one problem won't matter to most users; just network geeks like myself. Item two is probably the biggest problem, but like I said, I haven't tried to contact Dell to see why synaptic/apt-get update/etc. can no longer connect to the update server. Item three also happens on my wife's Vista laptop, so doesn't seem to be a differentiating characteristic of Linux over Windows.

    On the other hand, the wireless (typically a weakness for Linux distros in my experience) is rock solid, quickly and easily connecting to wireless networks with no fuss and no hassle...very much unlike the wireless on my wife's Vista laptop, which frequently can't find wireless networks, won't stay connected in cases where it does, and/or provides mind-numbingly slow transfer rates when it can connect. Setting up network printers is again far easier and more reliable than the printer setup on my wife's Vista laptop, which has to be reconfigured every single time she reboots. As far as multimedia...I can play DVDs on my Mini-9, I can watch YouTube videos. As far as Firefox and Open Office...on Linux "suck[ing] big time", well...FF may be somewhat slower to run JavaScript and OOo may not have *all* the features or be as pretty as MS Office, but I'll take standards-compliant FF over IE and free OOo with all its faults over MS' $500 price tag and freaking annoying "ribbon" interface any day.

    In other words, I think the FOSS/Linux community has done a great deal to make Linux and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being. I see FOSS/Linux as pretty good already and getting even better, but YMMV.

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  21. Re:in your face microsoft! by drewzhrodague · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters.

    So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?

    --
    Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
  22. No, they don't suck. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Informative

    To say that Firefox sucks is frankly pure spite.

    Many of us are using OpenOffice and exchange files with MS only shops without any issues.

    Audio support in Linux is quite good for most people. Amarok and Audacity cover most bases.

    Video support is patchy, but each release of every video product gets better (there was a time WMV files were not supported, not you can play them out of the box).

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  23. Re:in your face microsoft! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Real trolls and flame bait artists take note: If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven. We, the mods, don't mod you down because we disagree or are offended, but because, well frankly you are boring and we're just trying to help people avoid the same old non creative crap. So go to comedy school and take some creative writing classes.

  24. Computers aren't just a tool. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 2, Informative

    The underlying political and economical issues at play are widely explained by proponents of the FOSS movement.

    What is at play is the access to your own frigging data.

    If you don't understand why this transcends the purely utilitarian nature of a computer and its software, then I can't help you....

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  25. Dell UK. () by NickFortune · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I suspect that, while the enthusiasm on ideastorm is real, it isn't wildly representative.

    It isn't representative of Dell UK, I can tell you much. End of last year, I bought the wife a new laptop. She's a fan of Ubuntu, so I got her a Dell Inspiron with Ubuntu preloaed. She loves it - never been the least bit bother.

    A month ago, my old laptop finally gave up the ghost, and I thought (seeing as how the Missus' machine was so reliable) that a Dell machine might be the way to go.

    So I go to Dell's UK website, only to find that the only Ubuntu option they now offer is a minimum spec netbook - and that I suspect only because Michael Dell threatened to remove their testicles if they didn't offer something.

    I suppose ... if I'd wanted to phone them up, and if I'd been willing to spend the time arguing, I could probably have got my preloaded Ubuntu system. Instead, I thought "sod it" and order an Acer instead.

    I do wonder if Dell are aware of they shenanigans going on at their UK subsidiary sometimes. Operating system evangelism is all very well, but this is costing them sales, you know?

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    1. Re:Dell UK. () by sowth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are a major computer distributor, you have more than enough clout to demand the company who supplies your sound chips give you Linux drivers. Saying Dell can't do that is bullshit.

  26. Re:in your face microsoft! by s4m7 · · Score: 2, Funny

    So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?

    I believe we're calling this one the "Redmond Steamer."

    --
    This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
  27. XP gets returned becasue it's too slow by davecb · · Score: 4, Insightful
    In the store where I bought a Aspire, the clerk offered a "refurbished" model with XP for a lower price. I asked him if they were being returned because they were too slow, and he shamefacedly admitted that was the case.

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  28. Just a thought... by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is not specific to Dell, but Netbooks in general. The goal of the Netbook builders seem to be making them as cheap as possible and that is one of the many reasons why they choose free Linux over costly Windows. However, simply because they are making them as cheap as possible, they're also just shoddy computers and they get returned because of that. I have and likely always will be of the opinion that 99% of computer users don't care what OS they use as long as they can surf the web, check their e-mail, do their taxes, etc.

    --
    http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
  29. Re:in your face microsoft! by s4m7 · · Score: 4, Informative

    You're absolutely right about customers having to seek it out. Heck right there in the article they basically say that when they subtract the people who are returning the netbooks because it isn't windows, then the returns are a non-issue.

    Which is why I think it's such a shame that you go on to invalidate your otherwise perfectly reasonable point by perpetuating a worn-out, well-debunked meme.

    At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support.

    Since you don't bother to state what kind of devices you're talking about, I'll simply relate my experience. My mother's a 57-year-old computer illiterate. I put ubuntu on a machine for her to try out. Once in a while (maybe twice a year) she has to call me to ask what program she needs to do X. Her multi-function printer: worked out of the box, including scanning. Her ipod: worked out of the box. Her $5.00 keychain digital pictureframe: worked out of the plasticwrap. Her DSLR? works out of the box. Her HD video recorder: works out of the box. I haven't seen one single device touch her computer that failed to function on the first try, without her ever doing any "cli voodoo dance". She never does any research about whether stuff works with linux, she just goes and buys stuff and uses it. And she's getting a nice supply of new coasters from all the worthless driver discs that come with these products, that I've comfortably told her she can just ignore from here on out.

    --
    This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
  30. Re:It does not matter by SEE · · Score: 2, Informative

    I found upgrading the Dell Mini 9 to Ubuntu 9.04 Netbook Remix cleared up #3, and probably fixes 1 & 2, too.

    (Granted, 9.04 Netbook Remix has a different alternative desktop than the one that comes with the Dell version of 8.04.)

  31. Re:in your face microsoft! by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Informative

    I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.

    Heh... As an exercise, I conducted a little experiment. I wanted to see if your claims were at all true...

    First click: A search for "netbook" on dell's main page

    Second click: The netbook product lineup main page

    Third click: "Choose your mini". At which point you're offered a choice between a blue one or a red one (A 10v or a 10) which lists Linux or Windows XP as the OS.

    At which point you're into purchasing. Now... Oddly enough, there was only one choice which was clearly marked "Customize With Ubuntu"- but it's one of the ones you'd really, really want, whether you're doing Ubuntu or XP, unless you're unable to afford the extra $20-50 for the stock config on the price. Seriously.

    As an observation, neither "Linux" nor "Ubuntu" was plugged into looking for this ephemeral "buried" netbook you're claiming- just "netbook".

    Four.
    Clicks.

    And it was the same number if you were looking for a Linux preinstall or an XP one.

    Sorry, you're neither correct nor insightful- and I wish the people that'd modded you up had bothered to do the same little experiment I did and didn't give you the time of day, any more than the discussion threads over at Linux Today gave you an inch on this stuff you're coming up with. Which, I might add, is verbatim what you posted over here.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  32. Re:To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" ! by HermMunster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Did he actually say that? I make my living off the problems that Windows has.

    --
    You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
  33. Re:in your face microsoft! by michaelmanus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hate to say it, but it's likely that the dell product manager is spinning this in Linux's favor as best he can.
    It seems weird that he'd want to piss off his supplier, right? I mean, why would he make any comment at all on the issue? Well, that's just the thing. When you tell your supplier that they are in less demand than they used to be, then you have some weight to throw around when it comes to relicensing.
    This guy is just using the media as a pawn.

  34. Re:Dell has dropped most Linux models by Shikaku · · Score: 4, Informative

    You are not looking hard enough. Please check at least the last link.

  35. Re:in your face microsoft! by masshuu · · Score: 4, Funny

    This?
    +----------+
    |  PLEASE  |
    |  DO NOT  |
    | FEED THE |
    |  TROLLS  |
    +----------+
        |  |
        |  |
      .\|.||/..

    --
    O.o
  36. What Asus did wrong with the EEE by sowth · · Score: 2, Informative

    Everything worked okay, except the OS it shipped with had serious security holes. Especially with the ancient version of Samba. Last time I checked, they were never fixed. perimetergrid.com - asus eee pc and linux vmsplice vulnerabilities.

    Also the restore disk was a CD (The EEE doesn't have a CD drive), and it was MS Windows only (so you had to have a windows machine to use it). So if I did need to reinstall the OS my netbook came with for some reason, I would need not only a separate computer, but it has to be one running a MS OS. I do have other computers, but they all run Linux.

    The drivers did not work with people's favorite distro because the hardware Asus chose wasn't compatible with Linux. For example, the Atheros wireless chipset wasn't open sourced until after Asus shipped their EEEs. The drivers were introduced into the 2.6.29 or .30 kernel. Most distros probably don't even have that version on their repositories today.

    These are all things which asus did wrong. This isn't a reason not to ever buy from them, but if my choice was between a EEE and a netbook which didn't have these problems, I would choose the other netbook.

    I just don't get why they never updated the kernel or samba.