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Dell Says High Linux Netbook Returns a "Non-Issue"
Michiel Roos notes that at this week's OpenSource World, a Dell executive deflated Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines. "Todd Finch, Dell senior product marketing manager, said the number of Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks. He categorized the matter of returns as a 'non-issue.' 'They are making something of nothing,' he said of Microsoft's claims."
So maybe only open source users know about IdeaStorm? Regardless, Dell is staring down hundreds of thousands of users looking for more options that should honestly be very easy to provide. So if the returns are a "non-issue" and are similar to Windows returns then what's the deal, Dell?
My work here is dung.
Essentially most of the initial high return rate was due to unclear advertising leading people to believe they were buying a window machine and getting linux. Dell has cleared up the advertising to make sure people know what they are buying and the high return rate has stopped.
Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:
The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.
That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.
That fact that a multi-billion dollar corporation is making up lies about free software on a daily basis is just another sign of true weakness.
ASUS said the same thing about the EeePC return rates.
As far as I can tell, the "higher return rates" source is MSI, who shipped a borked distro. Everyone else seems to be doing swimmingly.
According to Dell, and TFA, Linux netbooks don't have high returns vs. windows netbooks.
People buying these machines know they ship with Ubuntu. It says so right on the website, and the button you click, and repeats it when you checkout. People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.
Now, if only this would rub off on the rest of the business sectors. I'd love to buy a new Studio 15 laptop with the option for Ubuntu. It'd save me 45 minutes formatting, reinstalling Ubuntu and reconfiguring the system the way I like. But unfortunately their selection for machines with Ubuntu only includes the crap Inspiron line (the Ford Fiesta of laptops).
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
I wonder what the return rate is of Macs is? Esp from Best Buy?
The people who return Linux netbooks do so because they can't find the big blue "e" on the desktop. To hell with them, I say.
Linux is fucking king now. Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters. The strong survive and run or migrate to Linux, the weak do not live on because they are cuckolded by Linux users.
We, the Linux users, are fucking king...no, GODS. We are the gods who demand sacrifice! Ha. Ha ha. HahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!
-- Ethanol-fueled
Incredibly vague wording there that means his quote can be interpreted either way. Windows machines outsell Linux ones so if they're experiencing the same number of returns, it indicates people are less happy with the Windows one. Did he really mean same percentage or same number?
Also, given that this was a Dell rep at an Open Source show, he wasn't exactly going to go "yeah, Linux hasn't really been working for us, it sucks, we'll be switching to Windows".
Oh noes, how could they!
This will put a serious dent in their excellent credibility track record..
Shrug, I use it to learn about Windows security shit I should be aware of. Those are usually the only timely stories that make it here anymore.
Me thinks he's been nipping at the ethanol a bit too much and it's not even noon.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
Andy
if anyone hasn't noticed, Apple and Microsoft have been playing very nice together since last year.
Apple has licensed ActiveSync for the iphone and MobileMe
there is Exchange 2007 integration into Snow Leopard
New MS Office for the Mac will have an Outlook client for the first time with full Exchange integration
I think MS is playing nice with Apple to get back at Dell and HP for the netbook linux thing. If HP and Dell want to ship linux PC's, then MS is going to help Apple poach Dell's most profitable customers
While this may be a non-issue in terms of returns... I still find it extremely difficult to actually "find" Linux machines on the Dell.com site.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
And here we see Microsoft making messy and untenable assertions to the detriment of its ostensibly valuable business partners. My charitable side is prone to thinking that these moves are just oblivious on Microsoft's part, but the side that's been reading Slashdot for a decade suggests that they still think they're too big to be affected by their own irked customers... and it's happy to see that notion countered more and more these days. Next slide.
Return rates for a new, less familiar product are higher than those for an older product which customers had 15 years to evaluate and decide if they want. This doesn't mean the new product is bad. On the contrary, people who are returning it - and those who are not - bought it because they were not completely satisfied with the old product (on price or other reasons) and wanted to evaluate other solutions.
You know why? Because for most folks, perception *is* reality. Once Microsoft succeeds in "planting" the notion that netbooks based on Linux are somewhat inferior, only the geeks will buy them.
This works for Microsoft. What we should do, is to focus our efforts on make Linix and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being.
What is going on now with MS Office coming to Nokia's hardware is a case in point. It does not work for OSS in general.
Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time. Lets work on these so that if one takes the Linux plunge, that person gets pleasantly surprised.
Possibly the reason for thiese claims and why they are still way behind on technical merits compared to the competition...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Who? Microsoft?? Seriously?? Amazing. Noone would ever think of that,...unless take a watch of Microsoft's history of claims since, well, ever (yes, ever, probably they got in the future a time machine and said Eve that glass is the safest food in the history, but she was smart and picked Apple)
People who use Linux use it because they CHOOSE to. On the contrary most people who use Windows do so because they're forced to.
The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.
I don't know if it applies to the Netbooks, but from experience I found that Dell would put Linux on a computer, neglecting to ensure all the hardware in the device has associated drivers. If Dell still hasn't fixed this issue, then this is a Dell issue and not a Linux issue.
What would be more enlightening, is why the computers are getting returned. If it is simply a fact that people were expecting to have MS-Windows and got something else, then it is is a fair reason. Had they given Linux a chance they might have stuck with it, but in certain cases the 'know' what they wanted and didn't get it.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Kudos to Todd for laying what may be the truth out there.
If Todd's march to the top of the cubicle farm dung heap doesn't end over this one, then Dell gets my next notebook order.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Okay, got it. Yours is bigger. You the man. I get it. Satisfied now ? Oh boy... I will never understand these "religious" wars... Who gives a &*&@ on what you or me use on the desktop ? It's a tool ! To each his own. It's like "I drive a Mercedes - See ? I'm smarter then you !" PS. Personally, I have tried Ubuntu once. It failed miserably at the first (minor) HW change (the display died completely). Sorry, I have NO TIME TO SPEND on babysitting an OS - I have lost three whole afternoons trying to make it work again - when Windows found the new graphic card and installed it automatically in less than a minute. You use what suits you - fine, I'm happy for you - why to you need to start a crusade with each occasion ?
It was rejected by slashcode.
Work bio at MMWD
Problem is he was not drinking ethanol.. Methanol.. He's gone raving mad....
Dang it, now he's drinking the salt water from the reef tank in the lobby. STOP THAT! I gotta go and try and catch him before the boss get's back.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Being grabbed and screaming to the cold reality that many people out there hate to be constrained to Windows.
People keep trying to explain what has become now pretty obvious: Linux is mainstream.
It is high time companies and people interested in computing wake up to this simple reality.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"They are making something of nothing" Well that is the Microsoft business model isn't it?
As a 'softie told me here once, vendors are coin operated. Take three guesses at who's dropping the coin in their slot and punching their buttons.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
If you market Linux computers to people who are looking for "a computer" that will "run software they buy or already have" you'll get high return rates. Same as if you market a Mac to those people without also selling them a Windows license and teaching them how to use dual-boot or a dual-os system like Parallels.
If you market Linux computers to people who know what they are getting you won't get any OS-specific return problems.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It's really hard to get a Dell netbook delivered with Linux. At the moment, the Latitude 2100 is one of the very few machines to come with Linux. It's $30 cheaper than with a Microsoft OS. Dell's search page has a "FreeDOS and Linux" option, and if you check that, you get "No configurations are valid for the selected options." There's a Linux option for the Mini 10v, but the Windows versions has an "instant discount" to bring its price down to match the Linux version. (Also, the Windows version comes with a hard drive, while the Linux version only has 8GB of flash memory)
There are, as far as I know, no Linux-only netbooks left on the market.
This has been a non issue for a while for companies with enough know how...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That is what capitalism is all about.
Why insist on this same point every time Linux makes some progress?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters.
So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
.. at your own peril: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/13/the-zune-hd-september-15-apple-ipod-event-likely-september-8/
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
....and what the high street experiances may be different. Afaict the people who buy computers in high street chains are usually those who don't know any better.
It probablly also makes a difference that dell is loading a proper linux distro rather than the crappy vendor specific stuff that some vendors have been loading.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
To say that Firefox sucks is frankly pure spite.
Many of us are using OpenOffice and exchange files with MS only shops without any issues.
Audio support in Linux is quite good for most people. Amarok and Audacity cover most bases.
Video support is patchy, but each release of every video product gets better (there was a time WMV files were not supported, not you can play them out of the box).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Real trolls and flame bait artists take note: If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven. We, the mods, don't mod you down because we disagree or are offended, but because, well frankly you are boring and we're just trying to help people avoid the same old non creative crap. So go to comedy school and take some creative writing classes.
The underlying political and economical issues at play are widely explained by proponents of the FOSS movement.
What is at play is the access to your own frigging data.
If you don't understand why this transcends the purely utilitarian nature of a computer and its software, then I can't help you....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.
This is why Dell can pull it off and retailers,. like say Walmart can't, or why I can't allow Linux anything to be displayed at my little shop. Because you have to go out of you way to find the Linux at Dell, with a retailer folks walk in off the street. You aren't gonna trip over Linux at Dell, whereas retail anybody can see it. Here is my experience with Linux-Folks see the lower price, go "oooh pretty!" and no matter how you try to steer them they end up going to Walmart, or Best Buy, or Staples and going "oohhhh sale!" and putting something in their cart with ZERO research. And without research the odds of getting something from a retailer like Walmart that works in Linux is less than 20%. Then they bring it back because the PC is "broken" and expect you to "fix it", which of course you can't. So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business, or take the product back and eat the difference between the new price and what you can get for it used.
So while I am glad Dell can pull it off, there is a REASON why you won't see Linux at a retail outlet near you anytime in the near future. It is because the support for the devices found at the big three retail outlets, the above Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart, is piss poor at best. At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support. There is just too many items being sold at retail that have zero support from the vendor, and since Linux will never get a stable ABI, so vendors can 'write once, use forever" as they do with Windows, I just don't see that situation changing. It seems that many in the Linux community are "source code or nothing!" and therefor will get nothing, at least from most vendors of home products. So I'm glad for Dell, but that doesn't solve the "Linux stays a niche" problem, because Linux is hidden in the back of the Dell site.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I just bought a mini 10v, but I got it with windows because the price was the same, and I figure a free XP license is a good deal. I can always put Ubuntu on it and use that legally licensed copy of XP where I might really use it.
I also have gotten into the habit of writing down or snapping a pic of the license sticker on old PCs people throw away. A computer from 2002 might not be that useful, but an XP license from then is just as good as one now. You can use any XP disk, because it's the key that matters (well, keep OEM disks with OEM licenses, but yeah).
I jumped on vista right away and had vista ultimate on my home PC (bought the upgrade, but that was when MS gave people the option of just using an upgrade copy just for using the Beta, so it wasn't too bad) and when I finally couldn't stand Vista, I used an XP license from an old PC i found. It worked out great! :)
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
They should stop recommending Windows Vista on all their adverts oh and have clearer links on their site to the LInux machines.
Methanol Sniffers. MS. I see it now, it makes them blind and mad. Poor Steve, take a chair.
This is detracting from what is really happening. It has little to do with people making the wrong choice. To blame the return rate on people making the wrong choice is incorrect. That smooths out over time. They'll get what they want.
The issue is whether windows and linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate. And they are. From that you have to break down causes. One cause is the fact that some people bought the wrong version. There are other issues as well.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
They'd have to open new factories to produce all the ones they'd sell. People get a big kick out of seeing it on my mini9, and it's way more powerful than the PBG4 I used for a long time.
Officially, apple says that their users don't want the mac experience on a dinky netbook. I think they're just holding off the would-be ravenous crowds until they can get their own (tablet?) out the gate.
It isn't representative of Dell UK, I can tell you much. End of last year, I bought the wife a new laptop. She's a fan of Ubuntu, so I got her a Dell Inspiron with Ubuntu preloaed. She loves it - never been the least bit bother.
A month ago, my old laptop finally gave up the ghost, and I thought (seeing as how the Missus' machine was so reliable) that a Dell machine might be the way to go.
So I go to Dell's UK website, only to find that the only Ubuntu option they now offer is a minimum spec netbook - and that I suspect only because Michael Dell threatened to remove their testicles if they didn't offer something.
I suppose ... if I'd wanted to phone them up, and if I'd been willing to spend the time arguing, I could probably have got my preloaded Ubuntu system.
Instead, I thought "sod it" and order an Acer instead.
I do wonder if Dell are aware of they shenanigans going on at their UK subsidiary sometimes. Operating system evangelism is all very well, but this is costing them sales, you know?
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
Not really... stores also say there really isn't a demand for Linux power computers, which is why they aren't in BestBuy.
So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?
I believe we're calling this one the "Redmond Steamer."
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
I worked at a common retail outlet until recently and I know for a fact around 80% of the linux netbooks we sold were returned. Perhaps people that order them from dell actually realize that they are buying a linux based system.
This is not specific to Dell, but Netbooks in general. The goal of the Netbook builders seem to be making them as cheap as possible and that is one of the many reasons why they choose free Linux over costly Windows. However, simply because they are making them as cheap as possible, they're also just shoddy computers and they get returned because of that. I have and likely always will be of the opinion that 99% of computer users don't care what OS they use as long as they can surf the web, check their e-mail, do their taxes, etc.
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
You're absolutely right about customers having to seek it out. Heck right there in the article they basically say that when they subtract the people who are returning the netbooks because it isn't windows, then the returns are a non-issue.
Which is why I think it's such a shame that you go on to invalidate your otherwise perfectly reasonable point by perpetuating a worn-out, well-debunked meme.
At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support.
Since you don't bother to state what kind of devices you're talking about, I'll simply relate my experience. My mother's a 57-year-old computer illiterate. I put ubuntu on a machine for her to try out. Once in a while (maybe twice a year) she has to call me to ask what program she needs to do X. Her multi-function printer: worked out of the box, including scanning. Her ipod: worked out of the box. Her $5.00 keychain digital pictureframe: worked out of the plasticwrap. Her DSLR? works out of the box. Her HD video recorder: works out of the box. I haven't seen one single device touch her computer that failed to function on the first try, without her ever doing any "cli voodoo dance". She never does any research about whether stuff works with linux, she just goes and buys stuff and uses it. And she's getting a nice supply of new coasters from all the worthless driver discs that come with these products, that I've comfortably told her she can just ignore from here on out.
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
Take the UK arm of Walmart. They are selling an Elonex Netbook with Linux for less than £150.00 However, I'd like to see XP or Vista running on it. 2Gb SSD 128Mb Ram http://direct.asda.com/Laptops-+-Handhelds/4061,default,sc.html The Elonex is in plain view. There is another model available for £190.00 Via CPU 512Mb Ram 80Gb HDD There you have it, even Walmart is selling Linux Netbooks.
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
Microsoft: Dell netbooks with Linux are being returned at 4 to 5 times the number of Dells with Windows.
Dell: Our netbooks are being returned for technical issues at the same rate regardless of the OS.
Uh ... they aren't talking about the same thing. What Microsoft is saying is NOT that netbooks with Linux are somehow broken, but rather, people are just unhappy with them and returning them (for replacement with a Windows version or money back). Dell seems to think the statement is claiming that Dell machines break more with Linux. Dell is probably pretty sensitive in that way for some reason like maybe they have a history of cheap hardware that breaks a lot. Microsoft is just trying to say that people who do try Linux find out they prefer Windows (which could be for one of many reasons, such as a favorite game is designed to only run on Windows and they didn't realize the issue until they tried to install it on Linux).
I recently bought a netbook (ASUS EEE). I specifically got one with Windows XP on it, instead of with Linux on it, despite my intention to use Linux on it. Since I plan to put my own Linux on it, the factory installed Linux does me no good as an alternative fallback OS. I image-copied the 16GB SSD (compressed down to 2.6GB) that had Windows on it to other storage media and saved a few copies of it. I verified that restoring it to the SSD even works (booting up after each restore, it goes into the "new user" setup again). Now if I ever need Windows for some reason, I can restore one of those images and I have it. Had I chosen the netbook with Linux, what I'd have would be Linux I could use instead of Linux.
My point here is that sales rates for netbooks with Windows will be higher for reasons that don't always involve Windows being the preferred OS. Because Linux has traditionally been "an Internet OS" (e.g. an OS you get by downloading it from the internet), this will always skew sales figures.
At least it's XP instead of Vista.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Heh... As an exercise, I conducted a little experiment. I wanted to see if your claims were at all true...
First click: A search for "netbook" on dell's main page
Second click: The netbook product lineup main page
Third click: "Choose your mini". At which point you're offered a choice between a blue one or a red one (A 10v or a 10) which lists Linux or Windows XP as the OS.
At which point you're into purchasing. Now... Oddly enough, there was only one choice which was clearly marked "Customize With Ubuntu"- but it's one of the ones you'd really, really want, whether you're doing Ubuntu or XP, unless you're unable to afford the extra $20-50 for the stock config on the price. Seriously.
As an observation, neither "Linux" nor "Ubuntu" was plugged into looking for this ephemeral "buried" netbook you're claiming- just "netbook".
Four.
Clicks.
And it was the same number if you were looking for a Linux preinstall or an XP one.
Sorry, you're neither correct nor insightful- and I wish the people that'd modded you up had bothered to do the same little experiment I did and didn't give you the time of day, any more than the discussion threads over at Linux Today gave you an inch on this stuff you're coming up with. Which, I might add, is verbatim what you posted over here.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
But if you want to find something that's NOT a netbook, then things get harder. In fact, I found the best approach was to google "dell ubuntu laptop" instead of trying to find them on Dell's website. At that point, it's clear you know what you're looking for (lcomputers w/ linux OEM installed) and you're buying from Dell becuase you know they've got it, so while the original claim is not %100 on the mark, there's some truth to it.
That's cheating... You had to plug in "Linux" or "Ubuntu" to find the same. That's part and parcel of his gripe. They're "buried" and you have to "know about Linux" to go find them.
To whit, I've proven that the end result isn't as he claimed without a single mention of either term, only "netbook" or "mini" and following their expected path with three clicks will get you to a page with Ubuntu prominently mentioned in relationship to their Netbooks and a fourth click will get you into the start of the order system, ORDERING one from them with it on there.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business
While I do see your point,I have to point out that according to my personal experience, those customers, once burnt, are pretty unable to spread anything.
Oh wait... you were kidding, weren't you ?
(Anyway, you should give it a try, really, it feels so good...)
Segmentation Fault in "Life, Universe and Everything" at line 42. Don't Panic.
Actually it means the customers were complaining that they was too slow when they brought them back. It's definitely underpowered, it's just that Linux doesn't care (;-))
The clerk did say that a lot of people did take the Linux model in it's place, an I suggested they copy Linux onto some of the XP returns.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
I think Dell will take them back whether you are stoned or not.
Have gnu, will travel.
Here is my experience with Linux-Folks see the lower price, go "oooh pretty!" and no matter how you try to steer them they end up going to Walmart, or Best Buy, or Staples and going "oohhhh sale!" and putting something in their cart with ZERO research. And without research the odds of getting something from a retailer like Walmart that works in Linux is less than 20%. Then they bring it back because the PC is "broken" and expect you to "fix it", which of course you can't. So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business, or take the product back and eat the difference between the new price and what you can get for it used.
When I worked for an internet electronics retailer I was amazed at just how often situations like this would happen. A typical call would go something like this:
"You idiots! You sent me the wrong item! Take this piece of junk back and send me what I want!"
"I'm sorry about that, it says on your order form you ordered a Widget ABC dash 9. What did you receive instead?
"Oh, I got a Widget ABC dash 9 alright. Why did you send me this thing?"
"Because you, um, ordered it?"
"Yeah, I ordered it, but it's not what I want.What's wrong with you guys that you can't send me what I want?
This would happen at least a couple of times a week - apparently for some customers a "Sale" banner with a low price on some item is just too much to resist, and they'll order it having absolutely no notion of what they're buying. We called this "I don't know what this thing is but I want it" syndrome. In their minds apparently it was the job of the retailer to somehow divine after the fact what the customer actually desired.
Low demand and high return rate aren't the same thing
You mom hit the jackpot, that's what that means.
I use ubuntu, and fyi most the computers I've installed it on require some level of research on ubuntuforums.org to figure out all the tweaks and workarounds that are necessary for my parts to work.
It has worked perfectly on one computer so far. Now that I'm thinking about it, the 20% that the parent was talking about is pretty much spot on for the experience I've had. Of course I've gotten most of them working, but had I not done all the forum research and terminal commands, the computers would have been less-able or basically junked for inop.
>> she has to call me to ask what program she needs to do X
just to incite a flamewar, what do you recommend to do X -- kde, gnome, or xfce? :)
In other news, I've scrounged up some old hardware and can't seem to get it running properly with the latest kubuntu. It's one of those Hauppauge PCI PVR things that is said to be supported. I was eventually able to get audio but no video yet. Even then, I had to do some CLI-thing to make component the default input. KDE goes unusable when I turn on desktop effects (flashes off and on, slows down the machine) with an HIS Radeon HD4850 and the proprietary drivers from the ubuntu repos. I've had to do the Alt-Shift-F12 thing to have a shot at disabling it. I also have an old Canon scanner E3000 or something like that which SANE lists as unsupported.
I've been running Linux now in one form or another for quite a bit. Went from Red Hat to Mandrake to Ubuntu/Kubuntu spanning 3 different machines. I've put up with having to fsck with wireless drivers and finding out certain products (same name, different chipset...bad Linksys!) just weren't supported. I still like it better than the alternatives, for the most part. Right now, though, if I have to scan pictures or record/transfer VHS video to my HDD, I have to boot to XP.
It's not exactly the "your grandma" experience and I guess I take some of the blame by not doing as much research and just hoping that parts I had laying around would work effortlessly. I still likes teh Linux...now if I can get those things to work, that'd be great.
It's always noon SOMEWHERE!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I supported the Linux before Dell shut a lot of American support sites down.
For the most part it was quiet, if hardware was an issue (and rare at that even) the user seemed to have isolated the component and was calling in for a direct swap. Obviously, we would test with a diagnostics disk and find that for the most part, our linux users were bang on the money.
The majority of our calls seemed to originate between two different people who wanted to get away from Microsoft and wanted to learn about computers. While we were still in operation, these people received Gold Support with follow-ups and complete resolution.
The grub update killed a number of systems but luckily we had a good team to help our linux users.
The reason that linux is hidden on the Dell site stems from two separate factors. A) The linux systems we sold were loss-leaders (oh yes - the support alone killed any profit margin). They did this to give Dell a cool factor (to geeks who would continue to buy) B) They believed the average windows novice would be lost in Linux
Having supported Vista/XP and Ubuntu, I was glad they kept it more of a secret. Some of the windows support calls turn into nightmares trying to get someone just to a command line or even to the desktop.
Oh! and the returns were much much less than our windows computers. Go figure.
http://picasa.google.com/linux/thanks-deb.html ?
And I haven't used Picasa, but maybe f-spot (Ubuntu's default photo manager) is an option (it also can upload files to Picasa, allows to manage your albums, etc.)
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
So, where does one get one of these returned Linux netbooks? I'd love to get a couple more and spend a little less right now.
HA HA! The joke goes both ways!! Newegg and Tiger are happy to be the vendors of No-OS hardware! Maybe you should take a hint? Stock bare metal, stock Linux CD/DVD, and be prepared to inform potential buyers that they shouldn't even ATTEMPT to install Linux on bare metal, unless they have an IQ larger than their shoe size. What? You say that you can't get away with insulting customers like that? Phhht. Dozens of people have achieved fame and fortune by insulting their customers. Google "stand up comic". Alright, so you're not Graucho Marx. Even so, just a little practice on your part should kick in the "reverse psychology" thing that people are hard wired with. The customer should walk out your door, carrying hardware and installation CD, calling over his shoulder, "I'll be back next week, I'll show you, I CAN DO THIS!"
As I say, Newegg and Tiger are laughing all the way to the bank.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Sorry, you're neither correct nor insightful- and I wish the people that'd modded you up had bothered to do the same little experiment I did and didn't give you the time of day, any more than the discussion threads over at Linux Today gave you an inch on this stuff you're coming up with. Which, I might add, is verbatim what you posted over here.
I still think Slashdot needs a (-1, Wrong) moderation option for idiots like this.
Pirate Party UK
The loose ABI encourages open source drivers, which is a good thing for long-term hardware support. Which is part of the reason why Linux supports more devices than Windows, or any other OS.
The linux stays a niche problem will be solved by the "free as in beer" part given enough time. Linux is the platform of choice for embedded systems as well as high-power systems. So the reasons preventing it from not being dominant in the middle of the spectrum are cultural, not technical.
Still, as you are in the trenches selling the stuff, I trust your expertise. Just don't expect the situation to stay the way it is now forever. Cheap has always been the driving force in what dominates the PC market. Ask IBM. Or Microsoft, for that matter.
No, it's more effective to go to dell.com, search for "Linux", then click the link to narrow your results to only laptops. That works just fine.
Follow me
Wow, thanks, I guess I'm out of touch, I didn't even know this was an issue.
Well, now that I know that it's been implied that people are returning linux netbooks, there must be something wrong with linux on netbooks and probably linux in general and since folks are not returning many windows netbooks, then windows 7 must be superior, so I'd better get a new windows 7 netbook right away.
Thanks Microsoft, that was a close one
The only netbook I've seen of theirs that comes with Ubuntu by default is the cheapest 8" one that's only ~$50 less than the cheapest 10" ones with XP. (via a link different than the one you posted)
But it's true that it's hardly a challenge to find a Ubuntu machine. Particularly if you're looking for one.
I hate to say it, but it's likely that the dell product manager is spinning this in Linux's favor as best he can.
It seems weird that he'd want to piss off his supplier, right? I mean, why would he make any comment at all on the issue? Well, that's just the thing. When you tell your supplier that they are in less demand than they used to be, then you have some weight to throw around when it comes to relicensing.
This guy is just using the media as a pawn.
A customer who buys a computer with Linux preloaded is likely to be more techncially savvy than a customer who buys a computer with Windows preloaded, and technically savvy customers are less likely to encounter issues that prompt them to return the purchase?
paintball
Ubuntu's hardware support has been fine on every computer I tried it on.
Although last year libata got updated to break support for an old via PATA controller... but there's always SATA. ;)
My problem with Ubuntu is still the amount of CLI & gedit configuration needed for "simple" tasks like networking.
This?
.\|.||/..
+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
| |
| |
O.o
If there was any substance to the claim, then it would be fun if it turned out that it was ordinary people returning the Linux laptops simply because "I cannot install word or find Internet Explorer"
right there in the article they basically say that when they subtract the people who are returning the netbooks because it isn't windows, then the returns are a non-issue.
Did we read the same article? I can't find where they say this.
according to your reply to my comment you did not have a clue what i meant...
According to your reply to the wrong comment you do not have a clue how to use /.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
...STOP THAT!...
Who exactly are you typing to there?
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
Thank you. I love how the Linux guys just scream and shit over me because I am not following their "religion" of choice. I ask them: When was the last time you sold Linux at retail? never? Then how would you know squat about the average home user or their needs? I deal with customers 6 days a week (sometimes 7) so I know of which I am speaking. As for the earlier poster that wanted to know "what devices" well, only the three biggest sellers here according to the guy running the electronics desk at Walmart. They are, the Lexmark all in one (VERY hot seller, and Walgreen's refills for $10 so they are cheap to buy AND use now), the USB Wifi sticks(also VERY hot, as folks can set up their PC anywhere they want and add new ones without running wires) and the USB TV tuner (smoking hot, according to him with the laptop crowd).
Now tell me with a straight face that those devices are supported in Linux. Lexmark all in one? After hours of CLI voodoo I got one to print, kinda sorta, when it wasn't crashing. Never got scan or fax to do squat. USB Wifi cards? Good luck if you researched a rev d and they have switched to rev F without changing the box. Thos things are like a cracker jack box, you never know what you are gonna get! USB TV Tuners? BWA HA HA HA HA HA. See USB Wifi cards for the answer to THAT question.
Look, I want Linux to have a fighting chance. I remember the 80s when you could get Amiga or Atari or Apple and Am I ALL for competition. But based on my research and dealing with customers Linux just ain't there yet. Did you have to use CLI this week? Today? if the answer is "at all" then you can forget the home users, who often have trouble finding things in control panel, hence Win7 and "search everywhere". I can't even count the number of times I have had hardware boned doing an update on the various Linux distros I tried, I can't remember the last time I had that problem in Windows. Lastly without a stable ABI the home manufacturers will NEVER ever support you! Why should they? They aren't selling enterprise or server gear, therefor you are not worth keeping developers just for you or risking patent trolls by releasing their code. Is the Linux Foundation gonna indemnify them if they get hit by a patent troll over their code? Didn't think so.
So if it works for you, and you are willing to put in dozens if not hundreds of unpaid hours supporting your family? Fine and dandy. I am happy for you. My time is $75 an hour and good luck trying to get most customers to buy support contracts. See the hatred Best Buy gets for extended warranties as an example. The amount of work I would be required to do, and would be unable to charge the customer for, simply dwarfs the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro. I have already ordered Win7 HP and when SP1 comes out I will switch my customers over. Even if they raise the price to $150 it will still be cheaper than all the research and CLI I'd have to deal with selling Linux. Sorry, no sale.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I bought a compaq windows notebook and replaced it with linux mint because I didnt want windows in the first place.
Most people buying a linux netbook from dell know exactly what they are getting.
Except that your theory is as full of holes as a pair of fishnet stockings.
How to find a Linux netbook on Dell.com in a few easy steps:
1: visit dell.com
2: point at 'for home', then click on 'laptops & minis'
then follow one of these steps:
3a: click on 'mini 9'
3b: click on 'mini 10'
and continue with this:
4: click on 'customize' or 'customize with ubuntu', but do not click on 'customize with windows xp'.
Of note: the Mini 10v does not appear to have an Ubuntu offering that can be easily located.
Four steps to buying a Dell netbook with Ubuntu.
Not particularly hard, nor out of the way. It's the same way to get the same unit with Windows, anyway, so it's no extra incantations, or out of the way running to get the job done.
Remember: Research BEFORE FUD. Your comment's a dud.
One of these days, I am going to flip out. When I flip out, I'll be back in five minutes.
To test this, I went to dell.com, clicked the link for computers for Home, then clicked the link for the mini and netbook page. I next selected the min 10. There was a list of four model. Each one had a list of features under it, with a big green "Customize" button. One of the models had an additional shiny green "Customize with Ubuntu" button. Right there in plain sight on the very first page listing the models to choose from. The mini 10v has the same choices. The mini 9 has Ubuntu as the default OS, and therefore requires additional mouse clicks to change to XP. It takes, at most, three mouse clicks from the Dell front page to see a choice for a linux model. It isn't even possible to see a list of available models without seeing a linux choice.
Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
Actually, he's 100% right. On this page you linked: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/laptop-mini2?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
It lists the operating system as Windows or Linux. Then go ahead and click on one, and you're presented with four choices. All Windows XP. Even when customizing, you can't change from Windows to Linux. It even took me a while to realize how to buy a Ubuntu netbook. One of the four choices has a button "Customize with Ubuntu", then and only then you can buy it with Linux.
Did we read the same article? I can't find where they say this.
It's written in marketroid speak so you might have missed it, but since I used to work in marketing I'm semi-fluent. I've bolded the relevant stuff.
Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface. Consumers had responded to the low price, he said - the Mini 10v retails for $299 online. "Now we are trying to be a little more explicit in our advertising," Finch said. "We are not seeing any technical reasons for why they are returning Linux machines so...we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines."
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
Took them long enough to debunk this. I have non-computer guru friends who (unknowningly) got DELL netbooks with linux on them, and never noticed a thing.
I see the Linux trolls modded me down. That is funny as hell. Waste you mods baby, I got karma to burn yeah!
That does NOT change the simple facts. Here are the FACTS. FACT- The three biggest retailers-Staples, best Buy, Walmart USA, don't sell Linux. FACT-The reason is you are looking at less than 20% support for the popular items being sold in those stores. FACT-Updates often break Linux, requiring CLI. Go to any Ubuntu forum after a release to see this in action. Sound is especially problematic. This simply rarely happens with Windows. FACT- support for Linux will DESTROY any profits gained by the lower price. It is simply easier to tell your customer 'google name of device XP Driver' instead of giving them some huge CLI mess that has to be perfectly spelled and capitalized and could screw things up worse if not typed in perfectly. "Clicky clicky, next next next" is simply easier for home users. That is of course if there even IS a driver, with in Linux is iffy if you don't research your ass off. Even Linux users will tell you to research your purchases. Do you HONESTLY think Windows users will research every purchase? Really?
So mod away baby, that does not change the facts. Linux is simply not ready for home users. It has too much CLI, it requires too much work to repair, too much research before making purchases, and then thanks to hardware revs even with research you may get boned. The simple fact is the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro 32/64 is simply cheaper than Linux, unless your hours of time are worthless. It isn't some conspiracy, or MSFT backing money trucks up to every retailer in America, it is simply economics. If the only users you get are those will to research and use CLI, then no problem. But retailers have found those users don't actually BUY retail, they buy online or build themselves. So why should they kill themselves and raise their costs for those that don't buy from them? Windows WORKS for home users and Linux DON'T. Sorry,but that is reality. No Sale.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
A "computer illiterate" person who also uses a DSLR and HD video camcorder -- that's pretty unusual!
I picked up a refurb'd Aspire One off woot a couple weeks ago to play with. The default XP install definitely feels slower then the Ubuntu NR install I'm playing with. But overall it does feel way underpowered for any "real" use, i.e. aside from casual browsing. Though the keyboard is awkwardly small enough to make it not good for heavy typing anyway.
It barely can play some video files I encoded ages ago... might be good for watching some of those vids on a plane vs on my iphone though.
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven.
None of the manors I have ever been in weren't very funny at all. They were mostly impressive. I'll assume it is a matter of taste and next time I visit a manor I will state my comment hoping it is funny enough.
...goes unusable when I turn on desktop effects (flashes off and on, slows down the machine) with an HIS Radeon HD4850 and the proprietary drivers from the ubuntu repos. ...
Don't turn on desktop effects on an old computer. Would you turn on Aero (in Vista) on mediocre hardware (you couldn't even put Vista on an old computer)?
$ make available
Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines.
the numberof Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks.
So Linux has a 16-20% notebook market share? Or is the summary's language screwed up?
I notice the Linux trolls modded me down again, but didn't respond. Why? Because they CAN'T! They can't because they know I am right! Your OS has been free for...what 15 years now? And according to the zealots it has been "ready for the desktop!" since 2005. That is FOUR YEARS where you can't even give your product away for FREE while OSX has a $1000 entry point and has been kicking your ass year after year after year! Why? Why is Windows, at $89 minimum, kicking your ass? Why don't OEM want anything to do with Linux? Why is it when Woot! offered a Linux and a Windows XP Home netbook deal, that the XP one sold out in less than 2 hours, while the Linux one, with a cheaper price and better hardware, couldn't sell out at all?
I'll tell you why, it is because you won't LISTEN to your damned customers, that's why? MSFT listened, folks said "Vista sucks" and they said they would fix it with Win7, and guess what? They did. Apple listened. Their users said 'we want easy and intuitive!" and guess what? apple has a whole "dream factory" whose whole damned job is to make their GUI the essence of ease of use. So when users say "We don't want CLI and don't like it!" what does Linux do?
They get flamed or get response like this and why is that? Because Linux geeks are delusional and refuse to face reality, that's why. News Flash: NOBODY wants CLI but you, okay? I don't care if you think it is the second coming of Christ, and it is the bestest, most fastest, most beautiful thing in all the fucking world, the home users will never ever in a million fucking years touch that shit, okay? Is that so hard to understand? Which do YOU think is easier for a non technical user? Launching something from the GUI and checking a checkbox? Or typing this long list of Unix gibberish that if they don't get the spelling AND the case AND the correct order right won't do shit, or worse completely bone the system?
But if you don't want to accept that, fine and dandy. Please enjoy your 1% and gripe all you want about MSFT conspiracies. But please don't spew that "Linux is ready for the desktop!" bullshit when those of us working retail and actually putting products into consumers hands know better. Windows XP works with every product you can buy in the big three retailers. Apple has these nice things called "Apple stores" where Geniuses will hold the consumers hand and help them all along the way. Linux? If you don't research your living ass off you'll end up with a paperweight and some asshat going "LOL Lexbark! LOL Windblowz". Yeah, that "free as in beer" don't feel like a bargain then, huh?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Unlike Microsoft??
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Microsoft isn't a supplier of Dell ? Interresting, I wonder how they get all those 'legal' windows licenses.
New things are always on the horizon
They ARE on the frontpage, just look in the 'for home' menu: under laptops and mini's, you'll get a page with a column, mini's and when you click on the mini 9 listed their you'll go to a page which says: you can get it with Windows or Ubuntu.
It may not say: 'Get your Ubuntu here !' on the frontpage, but it doesn't say 'get your Windows here !' either.
New things are always on the horizon
My current system is a Lenovo Ideapad. Everything worked out of the box - bluetooth, webcam, sound, wireless, flash card reader, so on and so forth. As it did with my prior laptop, a Toshiba. The only CLI computing I do commonly is the occasional 'ping' to see where upline a network is having a problem. Sometimes I'll use it for image batch processing or converting, things like that. But there are GUI's which do that, they're just a lot slower and less specifically configurable, IMO. I've been MS-Free for over 10 years, so I do remember well the days when installing Linux = massive and regular CLI use, that's when I cut my teeth. But those days are ***LONG*** gone. I do keep around whatever MS OS is installed on my own system, for the sole reason that I have a legal license to use under VBox in order to use IE so that I can see how it is breaking the pages I develop.
I frequently use Linux LiveCD's on clients computers (which run the full gamut of OEM's, with OS'es from Win98 to Vista, far many more combinations of soft/hardware than any retailer has in stock) in order to recover data or kill nasty badware that has taken over their MS OS installs. No problems, the hardware in far more than 80% of these systems also works out of the box. I would say that it is north of 90% of typical OEM hardware which has native support in Linux.
A few months ago, a friend brought me his wifes Dell laptop. It had been owned, for the 3rd or 4th time. I think you could safely guess that she is obviously *not* a CLI geek. So, again, I put Win back on, but this time, I partitioned the drive, and dropped Ubuntu 8.10 on a second partition. I told him to have her use Win *only* for work documents *only* when needed, and Ubuntu when at all possible for work, and for when she wants to venture out onto the web. Two weeks ago, at the birthday party of another friend (a lawyer whose office I am slowly converting to Linux), out of the blue when the lawyer mentioned my 'Linux project' at his office, she vociferously and with great force expressed her opinion that Linux is the best thing she has ever seen on a computer, and that she now detests having to use Windows. I could go on about what she said (like she did - she spoke for a good 5 minutes), but you get the point. And part of that is this: she has no idea what a "CLI" is. I have had similar results with other people as well.
Your hatred for a simple monochromatic textual based interface is interesting, in a clinical sort of way. I wonder why it is so, why you have to spew such venom and rage when you think about it. It's kind of scary, and definitely unreasonable. Doing remote support, to save gas and time, I frequently have Windows users - total non-geeky grandpa/ma's, suits, housewives, etc - drop to the command line so that I can tell if it is an issue I need to do hands-on, or to tell where the problem might be coming from. None of them ever freak out because they see white text on a black background. Some of them even ask me to leave instructions for them to do the same without needing to make a phone call to me. Maybe if you would try using it sometime, you would find that it is not something you need to be scared of, and that it in fact can actually be quite a useful tool.
And BTW - I am neither delusional, nor do I refuse to face reality. I don't push Linux on everyone. There are many places/applications where it is in the better interest of myself or the client that they continue to use a MS OS. But at those places where it is not an essential, I have found many times that Linux as an alternative results in a happy customer whose IT billing drops quite significantly, once they move away from proprietary solutions. These folks know they can call me and I will gladly give them a free consult when they need to buy some hardware, or find an application for a specific purpose. Rarely do I send them to a retail outlet, because it is my own experience that has shown me that the people working at computer retail don't really know a whole lot
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
Wrong... If you look at the BUTTONS on the page in question, they give you the option to "Customize with Ubuntu" on the third one over. Spotted the button right away.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
This is ridiculous. Hairfeet's point (who incidentally got troll mods) is that the only person who ends up with Ubuntu is someone looking for it. If you have to press "Customize with Ubuntu" (which is only on one out of 4 options) and not an option in the standard "Customize", then the person is seeking out Linux.
Come back when Linux is an option that people pick to save money, and then lets compare return rates. And this is posted by someone whos running Fedora rawhide.
That's right It's a little known fact that the bits in Microsoft operating systems are 20% larger than the ones in *nix based systems. That means that Dell would have to retrain the army of cyborg hamsters it currently uses to package the bits into bytes and glue them onto the HD platter, and they'd have to repeat the exercise for each machine they shipped because hamsters have poor long-term recall.
It's a disk image for Grud's sake. You write it onto a disk. Job done. What's the problem?
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
All those devices are supported in Linux. (said with a straight face)
Unfortunately people have two very bad habits here
For almost every piece of hardware out there I can find a Linux distribution where it works, and another where it doesn't. Use a truly good Linux distribution like Mandriva and your devices will all work just fine.
... and you couldn't get those things working? You are seriously overpaid ;-) That being said, my skills actually justify that amount, and I save $150.00+ every time I install Linux rather than Windows since it takes at least two hours longer to install Windows and all the apps needed than to install Linux and all the apps needed. That is just the savings out of the gate. Every person I have introduced to Linux, including many virtual computer illiterates, experiences significantly less problems than they did with Windows, and they thank me profusely.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Everything worked okay, except the OS it shipped with had serious security holes. Especially with the ancient version of Samba. Last time I checked, they were never fixed. perimetergrid.com - asus eee pc and linux vmsplice vulnerabilities.
Also the restore disk was a CD (The EEE doesn't have a CD drive), and it was MS Windows only (so you had to have a windows machine to use it). So if I did need to reinstall the OS my netbook came with for some reason, I would need not only a separate computer, but it has to be one running a MS OS. I do have other computers, but they all run Linux.
The drivers did not work with people's favorite distro because the hardware Asus chose wasn't compatible with Linux. For example, the Atheros wireless chipset wasn't open sourced until after Asus shipped their EEEs. The drivers were introduced into the 2.6.29 or .30 kernel. Most distros probably don't even have that version on their repositories today.
These are all things which asus did wrong. This isn't a reason not to ever buy from them, but if my choice was between a EEE and a netbook which didn't have these problems, I would choose the other netbook.
I just don't get why they never updated the kernel or samba.
How is that Lexmark all in one treating you? How about that funky Wifi USB stick (thanks Braodcom!)? Or the USB TV tuner? I so rarely get to use this in a sentence...WOOOOSH! If you research your living ass off? or stick to the high dollar stuff bought on the Internet? Linux is NOT a problem. Tell you what, I'll prove beyond a shadow of a doubt Linux isn't ready for the average Joe. Ready? Remember no cheating!
From this moment on until the experiment is over your name is Joe and you are NOT a geek. You don't do research, hell you don't even know the difference between an AMD and an Intel. To you the PC is a tool to get the job done, nothing more. Ready? Grab a pen and piece of paper, have them handy, now go to Staples.com, Best Buy.com, and Walmart.com. You there yet? Good. Now buy these three items, and if you want to be accurate buy two on price alone, and remember NO research! Okay here is your shopping list- an all in one printer, a USB TV Tuner, a USB Wifi stick. Remember you're Joe, not Linux geek, so you don't know about lexmark, so if it is the cheapest buy it. Now go on and look up "support" in the Ubuntu forums. Refuse ANY that "support" consists of a pile of Unix gibberish, because Joe will just fuck that up royally. Go on, I'll wait..../listens to new Rammstein/
Total fail, huh? I'm betting you didn't get a SINGLE cart through there without at least one "gotcha" in there, did you? So while it is nice that you are willing to waste countless unpaid hours supporting those around you, my time costs $75 an hour, no exceptions. How many hours of CLI voodoo dancing do you think it takes to make the "Windows Tax" a better deal? The correct answer is two. And believe me, a single Lexmark all in one can suck up two hours without even printing a single page. Good luck on getting scan or fax to do shit. And you want to know why I hate the CLI voodoo shit? Because it costs me M.O.N.E.Y that's why! Your average Joe is not going to be comfortable doing that Unix gibberish, or worse will fuck something up royally when they don't get the spelling AND the case AND the order right, and then guess who has to fix it if it is still under warranty? That would be me.
That is why Linux is a FAIL in retail, because the support will eat alive any profits you may have made from not having a "windows tax". If you want to waste YOUR time in unpaid support, fine and dandy. Average Joes don't buy extended warranties, nor do they buy support contracts. And Linux geeks don't buy retail. So why should I support their OS again? The one that has less than 20% support for the items at my local supercenter, and that is counting those that "support" consists of Unix gibberish or supposedly hacking some driver that was never meant for a piece of hardware to "kinda sorta" work if the moon is full and RMS smiles on you? Correct answer: No reason AT ALL. The same conclusion that Walmart reached when they pulled the gPC off the shelves. For you Linux is "free as in beer and freedom" but for my customers? It is "free as in worthless". Sorry, NO SALE
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Lexmark?
That's the company that gives away their crappy printers so that they can sell their vastly overpriced ink! Their "printers" are also designed to fail just beyond the warranty period...
Wow, talk about the FUD. Where did you get YOUR info from? Mine is on year 5 right now, and that is for a $39 special I picked up while in school. As for ink? Hasn't been a problem in years. Walgreen's now refills those for a whopping $10 a cart. They'll even touch up photos for you or make prints while you wait.
So while you Linux guys may be boned by Lexmark, they actually work quite well for Windows users. For $39-69 depending on model you get a printer/scanner/fax that will last you anywhere from 2-5 years, depending on the amount of wear it gets. And if you have the carts refilled it is $10 each, or if you forget and let them dry up? The price jumps to a whopping $17 at Walmart. But don't take my word for it, go to Walmart, or staples, or Best Buy. Have them show you the top five PC products. Then look them up for Linux support. I'm willing to bet you will be LUCKY if you get 25% support. When I tried it the number was 20%, and that was being generous and counting tons of CLI voodoo gibberish or hacking a driver for a different model and supposedly making it "kinda sorta" work as "support".
Linux has great server and enterprise support because millions is being spent to ensure that it does. Home gear? Expecting some nerd in his basement to reverse engineer the thousands of new home products being released on a daily basis is just delusional.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Oh please! I love how when the people refuse your crap you Linux nerds go all elitist on them. And I quote Mr. Bigot-"it is sad, that your client base is a bunch of cheap/broke people who watch TV on their computers, systems which are so old they don't have native support for wireless.."
The TV Tuners are quite popular because most of my customers bought big ass $1000+ screen for their PCs and now want to watch TV on them. Considering the superior resolution, what a fucking surprise. And the USB Wifi? How many desktops have you seen with native wifi support? Not very damned many. With the USB wifi they can drop another machine onto their network in seconds from anywhere in the home without ugly wires everywhere. I guess they must be stupid for not wanting to ugly up their expensive homes with Cat6 huh?
And as for "90% support"? Allow me to say this...BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Can I have some of what you are smoking? because it must be some seriously good shit. Want proof? Bestbuy.com, Staples.com, Walmart.com. look for yourself if you don't believe me. Those three retailers move more computer product than any Linux geek could ever hope to. look up their products while having Ubuntu forums in a new tab. look up support for yourself. if you are having a GREAT day and RMS is smiling on you you have MAYBE 35%, and that is if you count 'support" as pages of Unix gibberish that may or may not work or having to recompile a driver that was never made for a product in the hopes it will kinda sorta work.
The only one not facing reality and just fucking sad here is you. There is a REASON that Linux kicks ass on servers and has good enterprise support: It is because millions of dollars, let me repeat that: MILLIONS of dollars are spent by the likes of Red Hat and Novell to support Linux on servers. They also have the support of the major server vendors like HP, who with their giant patent war chests can afford to release code without fear of patent trolls. Since RMS and the "source code or nothing!" brigade refuse to allow Linux to have a stable ABI, and hell I could argue that Linux doesn't actually have a stable ANYTHING, from the kernel on up, then you can't honestly expect any hardware manufacturers to support you, when the cost is so high.
With Windows I can write 4 drivers and have 15 YEARS of Windows support- Win98/ME, Win2k/XP32, WinXP 64/Vista 64, and WinVista/7 32. Done, how easy was that? Can you sit there and honestly tell me that a binary driver from even 5 years ago will work out of the box now, much less for over a decade? This is why linux will fail. It will fail because of bad attitude elitist crap from guys like you that expect users to learn CLI because it is "leet", it will fail because trying to support it will suck up any profits gained by lack of a "Windows tax" and it will fail because most manufacturers of home equipment will NEVER ever support you, because you refuse to allow binary drivers that 'write once, work for years" like Windows. But tell you what, in 5 years when Win7 is everywhere and Linux is still stuck at less than 3%, be sure you tell yourself it is because users are "deh stupidz" because they don't want that unstable CLI mess that is Linux. You got right ahead and tell yourself that. Meanwhile I will be taking these nice checks from customers who hand them over with a smile on their faces. Because unlike your "free as in beer and freedom" my Windows boxes work with everything sold at the big three. Too bad you can't say the same.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.