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Thanks For the ... Eight-Track, Uncle Alex
Uncle Alex writes "My niece just turned one year old and her parents have asked that, instead of the usual gifts, we each contribute something to a time capsule to be opened on her 17th birthday. Multiple members of my family want to contribute digital data — text, video, music files. They came to me (the closest thing to a geek our family has) wondering: what's the best way to save the data to ensure she'll actually be able to see it in 16 years? Software might be out of date, hardware may no longer be used... any suggestions?"
Of course, you could use paper ... but then you take the risk that people will still be able to read 17 years into the future!
16 years isn't such a long time, but just to be sure, put a netbook inside the capsule. Make sure it can run on external power alone, and remove the battery.
Get a plain writing book with acid-free paper and each write a personal story, message, commentary etc. Attach photos on stable stock paper together with personal items such as a slip of wallpaper or slither of wood etc. from her first bedroom, a dried flower from the garden, small items that conjure up the day/year she was born etc.
Store in a sealed box in a dry, safe, dust-free environment
Much more unique, personal and tactile. /Even geeks need to know when to stop
AT&ROFLMAO
Physical objects should go into the capsule, not data. The reason we do that is because it's difficult to keep archived objects pristine and from getting lost. With data, you can store it in multiple places and always retrieve a bit for bit exact copy. Not so with physical objects.
Camping on quad since 1996.
Write it down.
I can still read a book a hundred years old, I can't read a C64-floppy twenty years old.
Open an account for her right now and place the username password combination in the time capsule. Once 17 she will then be able to ask slashdot how to read all the ancient media and have a geekish low account number when viewed fro 16 years into the future.
Then it should be stored redundantly in several locations, online and off-line and should be checked at several points.
An actual time-box is not a good idea at all since all tech has a risk of going bad even if not used.
Well, think what was around 16 years ago (1993) and project forward:
The compact disc had been invented for a little over 13 years and was still going strong (and would do until five-ten years after that).
Thinkpads were available with CD etc. (although we're talking 486's here because the Pentium was JUST coming out)
So if you dug up an old 486 with some CD's now, how hard would it be to get running? How hard if your particular units didn't work? Not very.
Now project 16 years into the future - buy yourself some *new* reliable technology (CD was in its infancy as a computer format in 1993). Make it as standard and popular as possible. Throw in a device that's still likely to be passed around on second-hand websites like eBay just in case. Hell, I can still buy ZX Spectrums for little more than a few dollars, and that was 25 years ago. Hedge your bets... use a Blu-Ray AND DVD for everything you want to put in there. Throw in some Windows / Linux / Open Source / freeware to read the data (don't do a BBC Domesday project and have to decode the software as well as find the hardware).
If you wanna be ultra-sure... throw in a Gumstix or something small and capable of playing the media (you could use USB memory in this case, or CompactFlash or similar). Hardware easily survives 16 years if you look after it or don't touch it. The data media may not (especially writable media) so project it forward with each transition of your own personal data.
And most importantly - backup, backup, backup. Include *two* of each device, and two copies of the data in two different media, on two seperate discs/flashs and keep a copy on your home machine to "upgrade" to the next new format.
Yeah, and there's absolutely no chance that google won't exist in 15 years....
Manuals are your last resort only
Recently it was mentioned on a documentary I've seen: 10,000 years of evolution, and the best thing to conserve information we came up with was stone tablets.
It's unfortunately true. The more sophisticated our means of storage are, the more brittle and frail they are. Essentially, you would have to bury not only the medium but also the means to play them back. The tricky part is finding out "where to stop".
"Thanks for the 8track" was a quite good tagline for this problem. 20 years ago, an 8track would have been the thing to store information on. Today, you would have a hard time finding a player. And the problem gets worse with every year. Magnetic tapes, VHS or Beta, dominated the video market for over two decades. DVD didn't dominate for one. BluRay is probably going to be replaced before long. The time between generations of players is shrinking quickly. Soon we'll see, if you're not an early adopter, you're already lagging a generation behind.
The most sensible way, and a worthy geek project too, would be to create a playback device made entirly from standard off the shelf parts that you may sensibly assume to be still available in a few decades, put the packing list along with the content you want to preserve into the box and make sure you also store your content in a way that survives the test of time.
You only have to bridge about two decades. It would be a very interesting project to try something like that with the goal to make information last millenia.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As odd as it may sound, this may be one of the more sophisticated ideas.
Yes, many services fold over times. Just use all of them. At least one will probably survive. It might pay, though, to keep monitoring such services and move the data if you happen to run out of backups. But that, essentially, perverts the idea of a time capsule. The interesting part of opening such a thing isn't just the old info, it's the very idea that these old parts have been sitting there for years/decades, untouched and stored.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
USB is like... the best standard ever. Just have everyone throw everything on a flash stick. In 16 years, if there is not just yet another faster version of it that is backward compatible with all the old ones, then you can personally come over here and slap me with a rolled up newspaper.
.jpg, .mpg, and .mp3 ever not being supported. Those are standards which are also more likely to be updated than ditched, I think.
The files are a little tougher, but it's hard to imagine
of course not. gods are eternal.
weinersmith
"what's the best way to save the data to ensure she'll actually be able to see it in 16 years? "
You're missing the real point of his question. I think he's really asking how to make his Time Capsule zombie/meteor/nuclear bomb-proof.
And divorce-proof.
"Oh darling, when you were just twelve months old your mother and ... Damnit! If it wasn't for you I'd have never had to get married to that ... $%^#&#@%$".
I still have music CDs that I purchased in the 1970's that are still usable :)
1982 at the earliest.
But there is a difference between a pressed CD - which can last for a very long time - and a CDR which decays surprisingly quickly.
I still have music CDs that I purchased in the 1970's that are still usable :)
A pretty good trick since they weren't commercially available until late '82 :)
The most sensible thing would be digital files, with a maintenance schedule -- migrate to a new medium every so often.
However if the requirement absolutely requires that a physical medium is locked up or buried for 17 years, then I'd go for analogue media with tangible encodings:
It may not be easy to play the vinyl or the 8mm film in 17 years -- but it will be possible, and decay is less likely to be catastrophic.
Do you realize that you're a looking at it with 20/20 hindsight? Yes, the 3.5" floppy did all right but loads of other media did not. I've used 8" floppies, 5 1/4" floppies, Iomega zipdrives, several sorts of tape drives, half a dozen different memory card standards... none of those were seen as fringe technologies at the time.
In other words: No, all technology will not be an arcane relic in 16 years but _many_ technologies will be. The trick is choosing the right one.
I would include a player for any media you have. I am still trying to cope with all my Mom's trays of slides...Oh, and make sure you include descriptions of the participants, I have a lot of old slides of people I presume are cousins, but I am not sure exactly who they are....
Or get the entire package, transform it into a single file (by whatever means necessary) and print the binary code of that file in 2D barcode, in plastic sheets.
It will last well over five thousand years and no matter the difficulty of reading it, it will always be at least possible.
If you expect your niece to become a vampire or somehow surpass the expiration date of plastic, you can pay a little to get the 2D barcoded plastic sheets engraved in metal sheets or tablets.
Follow those steps and your niece's time capsule might become the rosetta stone for an intelligent being aeons away.
Keep copies of all the software needed to play those video files *cough* vlc *cough*, and a means of running that program - maybe a whole OS in a raw hard disk image or something, so you can mount it in a virtual machine in 16 years. I'm sure some nerds will want to emulate x86 processors long after ARM has taken over.
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
20 years ago, an 8track would have been the thing to store information on.
20 years ago CDs were almost 10 years old, and 8-track was already "20 years ago, and you'd have a hard time finding a player".
I would burn the video files to Bluray (primary disc) and also DVD and CD (backups). I suspect these formats will still be around 16 years from now - or at least some kind of disc player with that backwards-compatibility. I also suspect the lower density discs like CD will survive longer. I've experienced this with my own machines where the 3 1/5" floppies died, but the low-density 5 1/4" disks still worked.
And yes text files and photos should be printed to paper. If the discs self-erase (the dye fades), then at least she'll still have the letters and photos to look at. .
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
"For my clients, I always suggest the use of stone and / or clay tablets for all mission critical data archive projects, regardless of size or scope. Bablyonian and Greek models of data retention from as far back as 4,500 years ago are (in many cases) superior to the models we commonly use today, with much of the physical media having survived electrical storms, tornadoes, floods, fires, and wars on every scale imaginable with a data corruption rate of zero and without the benefit of a climate controlled room, dedicated security staff, or even a closet for media storage. Imagine the elegance of a 84'3/4 STROM (Stone Tablet Read Only Memory) machine hooked up to your Slackware Archive server for performing restorations, and the ST Binary Writer you have networked to your backup systems and kept physically over by the quarry... nice! The TCO for slab is far less than that of tape archives, considering you can store the media in a pile of mud and hose it down when you are ready for a restoration."
M
Why not tattoo the text on her body? Paper can get lost! Ok, use a mirror so that she can later on read the message without any difficulty.
Let's look back 17 years, to 1992. I was just starting college at Georgia Tech. I had a 12MHz 286 with a 40MB RLL hard disk, 360k and 720k floppy drives, and a CGA monitor. I did buy a brand new machine my first quarter - a blazing fast 386 DX-40 with 4MB of Ram, 1.44mb floppy, a 120MB hard disk, and a 800x600 super VGA monitor. it cost over $1000.
Most everything is still around: the Parallel IDE interface, the floppy drives, and the VGA connector. We've also had some new things: USB, Serial ATA, DVI, and so on, but if you had to find hardware that could read an old hard disk, you could.
The problem with the time capsule is... well... time. If you leave a hard drive to sit for 17 years, I doubt it would be able to spin up. I think the same would be true for just about any mechanical device.
How about non-volatile memory, like FLASH? Well, FLASH definitely has a finite retention period - usually 10 to 20 years, so even then you're taking a risk of losing data.
Optical disk? Well, now we're talking. Archival-quality media stored in controlled, ideal conditions will hold data on the order of 20+ years. It's the controlled, ideal conditions that make it tough. If exposed to heat, humidity, and temperature cycling, even the best archival quality media can be destroyed in a matter of months.
So, I think the best thing to do would be to maintain the materials unknown to the child until it is time to reveal the time capsule. Either that, or "dig up" the time capsule every few years and refresh the contents by replacing the media on which they are stored.
What is writing? Encoding of information. Nothing else.
What is paper? An insufficiently dense medium for encoding huge volumes of data such as audio or video, even with a 75-square-inch block of QR Code on each page. Nothing else.
Consumer grade optical media degrade when stored. Planning to exceed 15 years is a huge gamble
Make sure you bury one barrel of oil with it.
It won't help you with the message, but should pay for 4 years at a moderately priced college.
Cruise TT
USB 3.0 is coming in a year or so, and it's still maintaining backwards compatibility with the older revisions, so it seems reasonable that computers 17 years in the future would be able to support them, since USB technology is already 13 years old. The bigger problem would be the file system on the drive. Is FAT16 still supported by default on the major operating systems of today?
Learn something new.
I love /. tags!
What?
Most flash drive manufacturers state that their drives are not good for archival storage. They expect to lose data before 10 years have passed.
This is absolutely correct, no flash memory. Unlike hard drives (and tapes, for completeness), which store data as magnetic regions, flash memory stores actual electric charge. While the magnetic domains on an HDD are permanent (unless overwritten or degaussed), the small charge in each flash media bit will slowly leak away. The drive should still be usable, it just won't have your data on it anymore.
A portable hard drive might be the best solution, for its small size and relative permanence of data. Perhaps even an iPod, preloaded with music that it can play, pictures and video it can watch, and files that (assuming USB and the files system are still around) will also be available. One iPod with everyone's files could be a good split, and a great trip down memory lane. Just be sure to pack in a USB wall charging socket, just in case.
Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
Archival grade isn't prohibitively expensive and should last a bit longer (some claim 100 years or more so they should last atleast 15 years). CD would probably be your best bet if all data fits on it, since newer media players for Bluray/DVD/HD-DVD/etc all seem to remain backwards compatible with CD.
How long do things like USB sticks last?
If you want to be difficult, you could also develop a simple protocol for printing and scanning binary data on paper, then print a definition of the protocol and data. Be sure to use good ink and paper though!
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
flash memory will not last that long, the charge will leak away... the drive will probably still be usable, but the stored data will have *gone away*
Chuck
I never understood that. I can understand the purple-colored dye fading if it's exposed to light (same as a rug or painting fades), but if it's stored inside a dark Caselogic notebook, why would it fade? It should be just fine.
I guess you could also throw-in a USB flashdrive for backup. That ought to last 15 years, but the question is - Will it still be readable? What if USB ports disappear like PS/2, Centronics, and serial connections have disappeared? For example I have an ancient 80s printer that still works, but I have no way to hook it up. The same might happen to a USB drive.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Most flash memory only quotes a retention time of a decade or so. Whether that is optimistic or pessimistic is not yet clear.
My niece just turned one year old and her parents have asked that, instead of the usual gifts, we each contribute something to a time capsule to be opened on her 17th birthday. Multiple members of my family want to contribute digital data - text, video, music files.
Data doesn't go into time capsules. There's absolutely no reason why you couldn't share that text, video, or music with her at any point over the next 17 years. And she'll likely be exposed to it anyway... Music will be playing on the radio, books will be available, folks will share family pictures and videos...
It might make sense to include a photograph with a note on the back, or a couple-page letter to her... But you don't just stuff the capsule full of digital data. That stuff would be better archived on a live computer and updated over the next few years.
What you put into a time capsule are physical objects. Think back to 17 years ago... What would be more fun to stumble across - an mp3 of I'm Too Sexy , or a working minidisc player?
What physical objects are new/cool/important/meaningful right now, that may not be later? Maybe throw a pair of her baby shoes in there... Grab something small off your dining room table or out of your front yard... Maybe the cell phone you just replaced... A couple ticket stubs to something that just opened... Toss in a cheap mp3 player (something that takes disposable batteries, like AA/AAA) loaded with some current songs on it...
In 17 years, when she opens it, you'll be able to say "Those shoes were on your feet 17 years ago. I talked on that cell phone 17 years ago. That's what we used to listen to music 17 years ago." And she'll be able to pick the things up, handle them, feel them, turn them on, see how they worked, compare them to whatever is current. Instead of just firing up a home-made version of I Love the '80s
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
If I were going to pick a random filesystem that will be readable in 15+ years for such a project, I'd probably put my bets on ISO9660, especially since this is a read-only storage situation.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
What if USB ports disappear like PS/2, Centronics, and serial connections have disappeared?
This is a non-issue as you have described it. I just built a brand new computer 5 months ago. I was not interested in any of those items listed, yet it has a parallel port, a serial port, and two PS/2 ports. It's actually unfortunate that they don't make a RS-232 flash drive because the serial port is not going anywhere for a very long time. You might need to purchase a special card in the future to have it, but it is far too convenient and easy for use with industrial controls to ever die out.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
Memorabilia from 16 years ago is going to be completely banal to a 17 year old. Think about memorabilia from 1992 being "opened" in a time capsule by a 17 year old today. Gosh, a VHS tape of "Unforgiven," and a tape of "November Rain" by Guns 'N Roses. This is not exciting.
Better might be to put in stuff that's 18 years old now. (That is, when she's seventeen, it will be from as long before when she is born as she is old). That might have at least a little bit of nostalgia value in 16 years.
File formats will be gone, of course, but in 16 years lots of people will still have 2009-vintage technology around, so she'll still be able to access it.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
I'd suggest storing a certain clip from Rick Astley on a DVD :)
http://xkcd.com/573/
If you want to include digital files, the best option is to probably include the entire hardware/software stack to run it on. Get a netbook, and throw that in there. Kind of an expensive option, but definitely would ensure that the data could be read. I'm almost certain we'll still be using the same AC outlets in 17 years time. Or at worst, you'd need some kind of plug adapter.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
>>>I've got some DVDs purchased over 10 years ago that still seem new
DVD-ROMs or DVD-Rs because they are not the same thing. The ROM uses pits pressed into the disc and theoretically will last forever as long as the pits remain undamaged, but the -R uses a purplish dye that fades with time.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Having read the bulk of the responses, and having been 17 ... seventeen years ago, I want to offer a tangential point:
Don't give it to her when she's 17. It will mean very little to her then. Give it to her at the birth of her first child.
Yes, I have ISO file systems that I burned on CDs 15 years ago and current computers have no difficulty mounting them. I would still choose that over UDF (ISO 13346) on DVD for two reasons: lower density recording is typically more tolerant of physical degradation, and the video industry seems more likely to abandon DVD for higher capacity media than the music industry to abandon CD.
The formats for individual files are important too. On those oldest disks, I can still view the HTML, images in JPEG and GIF, and flat ASCII text files. Interestingly, groff handles the troff/mm files on the disk without any difficulties, but extracting the Word files took a bit more effort. The PostScript files on the disk still render just fine (no PDF files to try). The MPEG files on the disks play.
There are plenty of PS/2->USB, DB25(Centronics)->USB and DB9->USB converters available. I don't think you should worry too much about USB going anywhere in only 17 years.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
USB isn't going anywhere fast, and even 16 years from now, the hardware will still be plentiful enough to ensure it's still readily available. The form factor may change, but the fact that everyone has a USB device of some kind (all with the same computer-side "A" connector) would ensure that even 16 years later, they'll still be on the front of at least some computers. USB has already lasted over 10 years in its current form... ;)
So that's a starting point. I'd say get yourself a high quality (read: lower capacity; look for a "single-level cell") USB Flash drive. Flash chips are used on all PC motherboards, even on the oldest (>10 year old) ones and they still work fine, so I don't think there'd be an issue with it losing its data over time. Try looking for a Flash drive with low capacity that claims high-speeds (the signs of SLC Flash), but stay away from cheap Chinese ripoff junk.
MP3 and JPEG have both stood the test of time - once again, they're both standards that are well over 10 years old (I think over 15, even). Your music and pictures would be safe with them. And, of course, TXT files are just plain ASCII data with no formatting, the de facto standard for storing any plain readable information on a digital system.
Or... you can just toss a netbook in there, new in box. It might just be as good as opening a brand-new-in-box Apple IIc. That would definitely be a cool gift, as long as she understands the value of nostalgia and doesn't just think "gee, what a piece of junk, thanks". :P
First off, you need to know what you're placing in the container to determine how big it needs to be. The next is to ensure that you have multiple packs of Silica Desicent to handle any extra moisture (corrosion reduction). In regards to the container itself, it needs to be waterproof and possibly air tight but not gas proof as you'll eventually need to purge all Oxygen from the container using Inert Dry Nitrogen. Then simply don't open it until the designated time (birthday gift is a great idea). Another way of introducing Dry Nitrogen into the case is the use of Liquid Nitrogen and allowing it to evaporate. The advantage is it will drive all of the oxygen out of the case and ensure a very slight overpressure, which helps keep moisture from entering.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
Even if there's no serial port, many motherboards still come with a serial header; the white header on the bottom of this board is for a serial port.
Convert FLACs to a portable format with FlacSquisher
Wow, she'll have around $2000 then. In 2025 dollars. While I'm sure she won't be complaining about free money, it's not like it's going to be a heck of a lot of money.
If you want to get something along the lines of a long term investment, I would recommend an ounce of gold. Perhaps get a bullion coin like an American Eagle or Canadian Maple minted in the current year. One will run you a bit less than $1000 currently. I would expect it will appreciate better than the CD will. Or at the very least it will be a pretty physical object to find in the time capsule in 16 years.
ironic how this story is almost 12 hours old and this comment is outdated but:
Use an iPod and a plug. The interface is simple and electricity is pretty much the same as it was in 1920. Solid state drive and built in interface make it the clear winner (and I am not a mac fan, so take it as you will). Ps at least one person in her "time capsule celebration" group will know how to use it.
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
The USB 3 standard is being finalized, that should last quite a few years! I mean USB 2 must be almost 9 years old, and it will still last for another few years. USB 3 will be backwards compatible. The other option is to use a high quality archive level DVD/Blu-Ray. Verbatim makes a disc that's certified for Archive purposes, but its pricey. www.verbatim.com/optical/archival/ The netbook idea is nice, but I wonder if it will last, unless the time capsule is air sealed. Another thing to think about, is filesystems, if you use a Data DVD or flash disk, what's the chances the file system will be supported in 17 years? Rather get a Good quality Portable DVD player, or something like it, remove the battery. Make a few videos, record it onto the Archival DVD, and store it in a air-sealed container, make sure no moisture or insects can get the the container, metal containers are a good option.
This question gets asked a lot. The answer is that there is no guaranteed way -- interfaces change so that your device may not even plug into anything in the future; motors in drives seize up and stop turning; file formats evolve so that there may not be software to read your data; bitrot erodes the data right out from under your nose... The best solution that anyone has come up with is to keep it spinning on a live computer, and migrate your data with you when you upgrade said computer hardware/software. If you want to put something in the capsule that's great, but make it a symbolic effort. If you /really/ want to make sure the data is readable in 16 years, then keep a copy on your computer and don't delete it. Storage capacities blossom larger and larger every year, so chances are you won't miss the drive space.