Aion Open Beta Starts September 6th

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Aion Open Beta Starts September 6th

Posted by Soulskill on Thursday August 27, 2009 @10:17PM from the gives-you-wings dept.

NCSoft announced today that the open beta for upcoming fantasy MMO Aion will begin on September 6th, extending through to the 13th. The client is available now. The game launches on September 22nd in the US, with a two-day head-start given to players who pre-order. NCSoft has also said they'll be showing off Aion in more detail at the Penny Arcade Expo, expanding on the information they provided at Gamescom (video).

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Rootkits for everyone! by regular_gonzalez · 2009-08-27 22:22 · Score: 5, Informative

A word of warning - Aion uses GameGuard which for all intents and purposes, is a rootkit. The article is a bit outdated w/ regards to incompatibility issues with other apps, as the Steam incompatibility was fixed a month or two ago iirc. Either way, it's a terrible and invasive bit of software that I won't allow anywhere near my PC.

--
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
1. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 23:08 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I used to play another small korean mmorpg, Priston Tale. It used GameGuard. The GameGuard server would go down all of the time, making the game inaccessible. The parent is 100% correct, GG is crap.
2. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 23:24 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Aion 1.5 (the version that will be in the open beta and used for release) does not have GameGuard. Unless they decide to put it back in before release, that is.
3. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Datamonstar · 2009-08-27 23:57 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Yep. it's another ADMINISTRATOR account that silently gets added to your system. Once I figured out what it was I disregarded it, but I was still pretty pissed.
  
  --
  The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
4. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by blackraven14250 · 2009-08-28 00:21 · Score: 1
  
  *jumps for joy*
  Since when is this?
5. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by democomputer · 2009-08-28 00:38 · Score: 1
  
  Aion 1.5 (the version that will be in the open beta and used for release) does not have GameGuard. Unless they decide to put it back in before release, that is.
  I'll mod you up if you can give a source for this
6. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Lonewolf666 · 2009-08-28 02:15 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I'll mod you up if you can give a source for this
  Now that you have a comment in this thread, you can't moderate it anymore.
  FAIL.
  
  --
  C - the footgun of programming languages
7. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 02:18 · Score: 0
  
  According to this that's not quite true:
  
  GameGuard will be improved or removed before launch.
  
  Sounds to me like it's still going to be in the software for the beta and that it will still be in the launch product if they deem it to be "improved" enough.
  Personally, I'm not installing it. The wikipedia article reads like a laundry list of how to compromise your machine with one little installation. I wonder, however, how many nerds who come here and rail against "idiots" they know who install malware from "stupid" sources like free screensavers will happily install this piece of craptastic malware for the chance to play a video game.
8. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Yosho · 2009-08-28 03:06 · Score: 1
  
  Now that you have a comment in this thread, you can't moderate it anymore.
  Unless he has a second account that has mod points?
  
  --
  Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
9. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Jim_Maryland · 2009-08-28 03:30 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Dual boxing /.?
10. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Kagura · 2009-08-28 03:33 · Score: 1
  
  The GameGuard server would go down all of the time, making the game inaccessible.
  The MMORPG server would go down all the time, making the game inaccessible. I'll never play an MMORPG!
11. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 03:38 · Score: 0
  
  The open beta does have GameGuard. I know this since I downloaded and installed the OBT client and it sure has GG.
12. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by geminidomino · 2009-08-28 03:54 · Score: 1
  
  Karma farming FTL.
13. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Skuld-Chan · 2009-08-28 03:59 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Best/easiest way to disable gameguard? Load it on 64 bit windows. Patchguard won't let it patch the kernel, so while it loads - it can't do anything against cheating. So if you are a hacker or botter - get Windows X64 and have at it.
  No doubt about it - it is a rootkit. On 32 bit machine I've watched it read window titles, intercept I/O - stuff like that. One of the ways around gameguard on 32 bit machine is to build a rootkit that sits below it.
14. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 04:07 · Score: 0
  
  Quote from Aion Customer Support:
  "Your feelings on GameGuard are justified and known to the North American and European teams. As it stands now GameGuard does provide a certain level of protection. If and when we find a better hack/cheat/bot prevention system we will use it. GameGuard will be improved or removed before launch."
  Source:
  http://www.aionsource.com/forum/aion-discussion/33125-important-news-gms.html
15. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-08-28 04:52 · Score: 1
  
  Well, on the one hand, one does want a cheat-prevention program to be hard to uninstall, otherwise what's the point? It's like outlawing guns and being shocked -- shocked! -- that the crooks didn't cough them up.
  The best bet for the future is to develop data mining techniques to analyze player responses to deduce who is probably using a bot or a cheat program, then do a direct analysis from there (e.g. a fast Turing test, for example.) That way it's all server-side.
  It'll still be a running battle with the cheat hack developers, but at least it won't rely so heavily on such intrusive software.
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
16. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Pyrion · 2009-08-28 05:08 · Score: 1
  
  Looks like you need to learn to read. There's nothing in there that says they're absolutely going to remove it before release. Read it carefully: if they find something better than GameGuard, they're going to switch to that, but in the mean time, they're sticking with GameGuard.
  
  --
  "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
17. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by cfalcon · 2009-08-28 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  No, don't be absurd. There's NO REASON for it to be hard to uninstall. A game that requires an anti-cheat will refuse to let you play without it. If you were to claim that it should be hard to SPOOF I would agree. But if I uninstall Aion and Gameguard doesn't go away, I'll never buy anything from NCSoft again. If it runs when Aion isn't running, then I'll uninstall it for sure.
18. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  His statement doesn't seem hypothetical to me. Apparently it's tied to a second server in addition to the MMO server and that second server has horrible availability.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
19. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by AP31R0N · 2009-08-28 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  Can someone explain to me why this is so bad?
  While playing in the closed beta i had no problems with it.
  How is this different than/same as punk buster? Are there systems to prevent cheating in MRPGs that don't involve some program watching the code on the client side?
  
  --
  Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
20. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 08:21 · Score: 0
  
  This isn't that complicated. I know it's a lot more fun to be a gigantic douche and act like you're really smart rather than just admitting that you're wrong, but try to keep up with the rest of the class: if you have two servers to maintain - one for the game and one for the anti-cheat software - that's two servers that can fail and deny access. If you have one server to maintain, that's half the failure risk.
  Bonus points: gameguard servers are maintained by a third party, separate from the game manufacturer, so the game manufacturer could be doing their job 100% and you still might not be able to play the game you're paying for every month.
  Try being less of a douche in the future.
21. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by ruemere · 2009-08-28 13:28 · Score: 1
  
  Don't know current version of GameGuard, but until a year ago it always left its mess behind.
  And believe me, it was not pretty.
  Regards,
  Ruemere
22. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by ruemere · 2009-08-28 13:35 · Score: 1
  
  Disclaimer: experiences based on a game with GameGuard for four years. Obsolete by one year.
  GameGuard filters and blocks certain API calls and certain applications. It also actively scans background applications.
  The resulting issues have to do mostly with USB devices with dedicated drivers, several versions of graphic card drivers.
  In some cases, GameGuard conflicts with other resident programs monitoring system activity, firewalls, host intrusion prevention systems, antivirus scanners - unless you remember to add it to list of exceptions, you are likely to experience problems running your game.
  In rare cases, you get memory leaks from graphic drivers (for some reason they keep claiming more and more memory) - watch out for NVidia cards. Also, expect 100% CPU spikes from time to time (several people had their CPUs go up in flames due to extended 100% spikes).
  That's all in addition to invasive installation.
  Regards,
  Ruemere
23. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by regular_gonzalez · 2009-08-28 13:40 · Score: 1
  
  Would you give, say, me permission to install a rootkit on your machine and monitor everything that you do on it? Yeah, that's how I feel about letting someone else - an individual or company - install a rootkit on *my* machine.
  
  --
  Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
24. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by csartanis · 2009-09-03 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  You've watched it do this?
25. Re:Rootkits for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-03 13:53 · Score: 0
  
  Terrible customer support. Game bought pre ordered...nothing works. Top of the line system should be no problems according to them. Frustrating. I'd wait until they get the kinks out or wait for something better. Total BS. The customer support is a joke.
Semptember? by el3mentary · 2009-08-27 22:29 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Submitter FAILS

--
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Fileplanet Subscribers Only by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

It looks like the open beta will only be available to Fileplanet Subscribers (about $5/month)...
There may be more beta keys available from other websites, but currently Fileplanet is claiming to have exclusivity on the beta.
So, I'm not really sure in what way this is "open", it sounds like it will be exactly the same as all the other Aion beta events with a limited number of keys for select (lucky) players.
Maybe, someone with more info can prove me wrong.
1. Re:Fileplanet Subscribers Only by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:38 · Score: 0
  
  Closed Beta is where they have a smaller group that they have selected to work on the game. Open Beta is where they open it up to the public and just let in anyone who gets a key.
2. Re:Fileplanet Subscribers Only by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:44 · Score: 0
  
  Sadly, even though I preordered the game, I wasn't lucky enough to receive a key. I sent them an e-mail about it seeing if there's anything I can do to get one but I'm sure i'll probably get a "sorry limited number" excuse.
3. Re:Fileplanet Subscribers Only by blackraven14250 · 2009-08-28 00:25 · Score: 1
  
  It's also for anyone who preordered. We were all stuck playing 1.0, they had better let us in on some 1.5 action before the beginning of headstart. Thre's alot of changes to the game between the 2 versions.
4. Re:Fileplanet Subscribers Only by Fozzyuw · 2009-08-28 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  I pre-ordered Aion from Gamestop a while back and they gave you a Beta key. I've been beta-ing in for like a month now. It's not hard to get into this beta.
  Since then, I've canceled my pre-order and put the $5 in on the WoW Cataclysm, which was listed with a release date of 11/2010. Which, of course, means nothing but a rough idea of when we might expect the new WoW xpac. It seems about right to me as well... except for the 2 months they'll likely push it back come Oct. 2010. =)
  Aion wasn't bad and anyone with enough time on their hands who enjoy fantasy MMO's should give it a look... if they don't mind the GameGuard Rootkit. I already installed the beta when I found out about it, but I canceled the preorder because I won't purchase a game with a ToS that states it's GameGuard can delete files off MY computer if it doesn't like it. Terrible, terrible.
  
  --
  "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:30 · Score: 0

Do we really need another shallow MMO with pretty graphics? The game looks like yet another Korean-Grind MMORPG. It even looks to follow the "The game begins at level 10", then grind to whatever level specializations come into play.
1. Re:Who cares? by Tridus · 2009-08-27 23:54 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Yeah, pretty much. I wasn't impressed and cancelled my order. Blizzard doesn't have much to worry about here. It gets really good when you get into the forced PvP part. Once people learned that, every single person in my WoW guild who had been interested decided not to bother.
  It seems that being ganked isn't exactly a feature people look for in games.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
2. Re:Who cares? by dnaumov · 2009-08-28 00:36 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Yeah, pretty much. I wasn't impressed and cancelled my order. Blizzard doesn't have much to worry about here. It gets really good when you get into the forced PvP part. Once people learned that, every single person in my WoW guild who had been interested decided not to bother.
  It seems that being ganked isn't exactly a feature people look for in games.
  It does get really good when you get into the forced PvP part, none of that casual carebear blueshield / pveonly server bullshit in this game. I was impressed, kept my Aion preorder and cancelled my WOW subscription. Different strokes for different folks.
3. Re:Who cares? by Opportunist · 2009-08-28 01:51 · Score: 1
  
  I hardly agree with a summary of a game that doesn't even take two lines, but this is pretty apt.
  I was in Aion Beta, "won" it as a TR player. To say the least, it was a bit of a letdown. As hacked together as TR was, that game had a better chance to succeed in countries that aren't big into what's commonly refered to as "Asia grinders". TR was one, sorta, but at least it was a little different from the usual "stand there and hit a few buttons" gameplay.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
4. Re:Who cares? by Opportunist · 2009-08-28 01:54 · Score: 1
  
  If that's your thing, more power to you. I'm all for different flavors in games (hell, I know I'd want a game where groups are more than just 'raid only', i.e. where you will start playing with other players instead of against them before you hit levelcap). Just as much as my likes are not really mainstream, so ain't yours, I'm afraid. What's to be seen is if there are enough people like you to keep the game running.
  I know I won't be there, sorry. Yeah, call me carebear, but my idea of fun isn't found in the frustration of being permaganked by people who have more time to play than I do and thus reach levelcap so early that there's nothing left for them to do but bash low level chars.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
5. Re:Who cares? by Snoboo · 2009-08-28 02:05 · Score: 0
  
  There is basically nothing left of my WoW guild. Just one player is still raiding. Most quit the game because of boredom and quite a few are interested in AION. WoW might not contain a "forced PvP" part, but it contains a "forced raid" part - either raid or you have almost nothing left to do.
6. Re:Who cares? by Tridus · 2009-08-28 02:14 · Score: 1
  
  The whole point of different server types is that you can play on yours, I can play on mine, and we're both happy. That means more customers.
  Since Aion wants to force me to endure that bullshit, I'm taking my money elsewhere. The only real way you can oppose such a server split is if your goal is to get people who don't want to be ganked forced into it, so you can gank them.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
7. Re:Who cares? by Tridus · 2009-08-28 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  Nope. PvE focused MMOs have always been more popular then PvP focused ones. Ganking is why forum whiners play the game, but that's a minority.
  Ganking in particular is never popular for the people on the receieving end. Only instead of bitching about it on Slashdot, they just quit the game entirely and go spend their money on something else.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
8. Re:Who cares? by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 02:19 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  What's the point of pwning people in MMOs when that usually amounts to "my level is higher than yours, I win"? It's not a demonstration of skill, it's just a demonstration of how long you have played before that battle.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
9. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 02:27 · Score: 0
  
  "none of that casual carebear blueshield / pveonly server bullshit in this game"
  What the hell are you talking about? How do people who don't want to live in fear get in your way? Is it that it bums you out that you can't just run up behind a newbie and burn them down in one shot while laughing about it? Or what? I seriously do not understand.
10. Re:Who cares? by dnaumov · 2009-08-28 02:44 · Score: 1
  
  What's the point of pwning people in MMOs when that usually amounts to "my level is higher than yours, I win"? It's not a demonstration of skill, it's just a demonstration of how long you have played before that battle.
  I am confused. When talking about PvP, why even bring pre-levelcap PvP into the discussion? It's irrelevant.
11. Re:Who cares? by Ogive17 · 2009-08-28 03:11 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  PvE mmorpg servers seem to be missing a huge element of the game. Like most people, I hate getting killed... especially to a much higher level or when I was involved in some other task. But I can't imagine playing an online game with hundreds/thousands of other people without getting to "interact" with them. I'm on a very low pop PvP server.. so low population that there's practically no PvP going on except at meeting stones and of course the battle grounds. It's boring.. I can't remember the last time someone tried to gank me. Part of the thrill is killing someone who got the jump on you.
  
  Sure pvp isn't for everyone, if you want protection travel in small groups. These games aren't designed for solo play.
  
  --
  "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
12. Re:Who cares? by jimmyfrank · 2009-08-28 03:13 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, most people whine and call it ganking, probably because they've been on the other end of a good beat down and it crushes their ego. 8 man RvR battles that lasted 10-15 mins were the bomb.
13. Re:Who cares? by geminidomino · 2009-08-28 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  I am confused. When talking about PvP, why even bring pre-levelcap PvP into the discussion? It's irrelevant.
  Because pre-levelcap PvP is where ganking happens, which is what the subthread is about.
14. Re:Who cares? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-08-28 05:03 · Score: 1
  
  Forced PvP isn't the only Fail.
  > Warriors are masters of close combat. They are about grit,
  > power, and sheer strength. They use their great physical
  > strength and prowess to pound the enemy and provide cover for allies .
  Jesus Christ! Another game where warriors are crap-damage pseudo-controllers instead of, oh, I don't know, an actual warrior.
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
15. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 05:14 · Score: 0
  
  Once people learned that, every single person in my WoW guild who had been interested decided not to bother.
  Good. The fewer WoW tourists, to complain and moan about how it isn't a 100% copy of WoW, the better. That sort of person helped to drag down WAR by badmouthing it incessantly when they realised they would have to (*gasp*) fight other players (!!!)
  Aion is a PvP game. Don't go into it thinking that you'll just quest and raid. It sounds like it's not for you -- but that doesn't make it a bad game.
16. Re:Who cares? by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  You don't get to decide "I'm not at the level cap, I don't want to engage in PvP" because it's enough that the other guy decides to attack you.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
17. Re:Who cares? by AP31R0N · 2009-08-28 08:01 · Score: 1
  
  Check out PlanetSide. The shallow power curve make level a minor factor. Skill, tactics, and organization can beat higher level and high numbers.
  
  --
  Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
18. Re:Who cares? by Hausenwulf · 2009-08-28 08:07 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  It does get really good when you get into the forced PvP part, none of that casual carebear blueshield / pveonly server bullshit in this game. I was impressed, kept my Aion preorder and cancelled my WOW subscription. Different strokes for different folks.
  I always thought that's what fps games were for. MMORPG pvp tends to be of the "I-can't-beat-you-fairly-so-I'll-outgear-you-or-out-level-you-or-get-12-of-my-friends-to-kill-you" variety. It's seldom challenging.
19. Re:Who cares? by Tridus · 2009-08-28 08:46 · Score: 1
  
  Actually they are designed for solo play now. Where have you been the last few years? Solo-unfriendly MMOs are a niche product these days.
  When I want to PvP, I can go hit a battleground, or arena, or just flag up and try to screw with people. That's a small price to pay for the ability to be left the fuck alone when I just want to go exploring and not have some asshat 40 levels higher then me decide to do some corpse camping.
  For people who like that kind of gameplay? More power to them, thats what PvP servers are for. But I notice that type is much more quick to start hurling insults at people who don't like it.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
20. Re:Who cares? by Tridus · 2009-08-28 08:50 · Score: 1
  
  Because that's what ganking IS. It's what forced PvP is about. You come into this zone where somebody who you can't possibly fight back against can simply flatten you.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
21. Re:Who cares? by ildon · 2009-08-28 12:19 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, WoW is designed with the ability to solo play in mind, especially for leveling. Which is a huge part of its success.
22. Re:Who cares? by bmatt17 · 2009-08-28 20:22 · Score: 1
  
  PVP servers aren't just about ganking. Some of my fondest memories of WoW were taking on 2 lvl 60's with my solo level 60 rogue and coming out victorious. Or being able to assassinate 1 person (usually the mage) in a group of 5 and being able to escape the the other 4 level 60's trying to come after me. And while I did some raiding I wasn't top geared by any means. Battlegrounds I found to be extremely boring. If I wanted to have that kind of play experience I'd play a FPS.
23. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 20:26 · Score: 0
  
  If I'm raiding enemy territory, I can expect to see the resistance come in waves, each one larger than the last. Eventually, my group will be up against the entire city and we'll be destroyed, fighting 'till the bitter end. On the other hand, if I'm the one being raided, I can expect my forces to soon outnumber the opposition. There's no XP loss for dying to the enemy faction, so there's nothing stopping me and my fellow faction members from trying again and again until we finally overwhelm the intruders. If they split up, we can easily gank them one by one.
  Ganking may exist in Aion, but the feeling you get when you rally together your fellow faction members and crush the opposition is really quite exhilarating, for both sides. It will evoke emotions in you that you didn't know existed--the primal sort that have been locked away in an age of (relative) peace. They've done a superb job of creating that feeling of "us versus them" in Aion, so that even when you do get ganked it's nothing personal. I would definitely say that I'm a PvE-oriented person, but whenever I see someone shouting for help in Aion I'll drop whatever I'm doing to help out--every time.
24. Re:Who cares? by Supurcell · 2009-08-28 20:46 · Score: 1
  
  Jesus Christ! Another game where warriors are crap-damage pseudo-controllers instead of, oh, I don't know, an actual warrior.
  You mean one who participates in war? I'd say they are doing that.
  
  What exactly do you want them to be? Damage only? That's not very interesting. I have no idea how they are implemented in this game, but in WoW, they have the ability to be substantial damage dealers(or have had in the past, don't know if they are broken or not these days).
25. Re:Who cares? by Supurcell · 2009-08-28 20:53 · Score: 1
  
  Someone really needs to do away with the level concept in MMOs. All they do is separate players. There needs to be some other form of advancement that still feels like advancement, but doesn't prevent players from grouping together.
  
  You said that you thought that's what FPS games were for, but maybe it shouldn't be something exclusive to their genre.
26. Re:Who cares? by drsquare · 2009-09-06 00:03 · Score: 1
  
  Blizzard doesn't have much to worry about here.
  It already has millions of players in Asia, and it's been a long time since Blizzard was constantly crowing about its subscriber numbers.
  If you're a new player looking for an MMO, you're not going to get WoW. It's incredibly dated, the graphics are ugly and the 'kill ten boars' quests are laughable archaic. Plus, you're eighty levels behind everyone else and have no-one to group with.
  
  It seems that being ganked isn't exactly a feature people look for in games.
  That's your opinion, millions of others disagree. Your WoW guild might not like it, but there's a selection bias there. In WoW, even dying is a mere several-second inconvenience, so they're never going to like a game with difficulty and set-backs.
  At any rate, people who decide they don't like a game without even playing it are the sort who would never like it anyway, as it isn't exactly like everything they're used to. Like a child screwing his face up at a new food before it's even in his mouth, your guild-mates would find any excuse not to like Aion. If not the 'ganking', then the combat sytem not being exactly like WoW, or the quest-givers not having huge question marks over them, or not being allowed to install add-ons to walk you through quests without the player having to put any thought or effort in, or a million other things.
  At least now the 'ganking' will turn off the WoW-tourists so they won't flood the chat channels and forums with whining about how every little thing isn't exactly like how they want it.
Where's the download for Mac? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Where's the download for Mac?
1. Re:Where's the download for Mac? by toolie · 2009-08-28 05:43 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Looks like you'll have to stand in line with the other 5 people wanting the Mac download.
  
  --
  -- toolie
2. Re:Where's the download for Mac? by Mhtsos · 2009-08-28 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  You're stuck with eve online friend, sorry.
3. Re:Where's the download for Mac? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  Why would you assume there is one?
4. Re:Where's the download for Mac? by Shimono · 2009-08-28 07:28 · Score: 1
  
  Or City of Heroes.
5. Re:Where's the download for Mac? by donweel · 2009-08-29 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  You could play this http://www.warhammeronline.com/mac/ instead. It was a little laggy for me but has a lot of nice features. You can't use http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxgames/ as it is not working, perhaps due to game guard?
  
  --
  Many a long talk since then I have had with the man in the moon; he had my confidence on the voyage. Joshua Slocum
Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Tei · 2009-08-27 22:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

This is a RvR game. To avoid the problems with PoTBS:
Don't join AION, if you can't handle ganking. Ganking in Darkfall could be much more fair than in AION, the "resistences" of a high level may make imposible to kill a players that is a few levels higher than you.

--
-Woof woof woof!
1. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-27 22:51 · Score: 0
  
  With the update to 1.5 ganking on lower level maps becomes increasingly difficult due to enemy race positions being shown on the map for everyone of the opposite race. There are also two separate maps which can carry a player to level 50 which do not allow other races on them (maps have somewhat reduced experience given per mob ~ .5%).
2. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by blackraven14250 · 2009-08-28 00:27 · Score: 1
  
  Plus after a certain number of ganks you can't rez in enemy territory at a tiki, then you can't even come back through a portal if you survive that long. They seriously did alot about the ganking problem.
3. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by abigsmurf · 2009-08-28 00:49 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  All the talk of ganking really put me off this game. PVP is fine but being constantly oneshotted by people you stand no chance against isn't. Yes you can ask high levels to help go around and kill gankers but they'll take a while to arrive and they're not always available.
  
  I was really looking forward to this until I read impressions from people playing on Korean servers that say ganking is almost out of control and the recent penalties have done little to stop it.
4. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Dr.+Eggman · 2009-08-28 01:03 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I never understood why MMOs didn't implement some sort of PvP honor system that takes into account the difference between levels and awards or takes away from a players honorabilty, like a morality meter in some rpgs. A more honorable character gets certain, small bonuses to a stat like luck or maybe just allows them higher standing with some faction. Ganking is still possible, but a minor deterrent could at least reduce the instances of repeated ganking. Sure, you'd have to track who started a fight to make sure some sort of reverse-ganking doesn't happen, but it can't be that hard.
  
  --
  Demented But Determined.
5. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by SpartacusJones · 2009-08-28 01:23 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Back in the early days of WoW, you could get a dishonorable kill for killing non-combatant NPCs. I'd also like to see the same happen for ganking much lower level characters. It's one thing for an 80 to kill a 70 (which really doesn't have much of a chance either), but for an 80 to kill a 20 and camp the body is really ridiculous. That should be considered dishonorable and the 80 should get some sort of reputation penalty for it.
  
  Blizzard apparently thought otherwise though because they removed the entire concept of a dishonorable kill from the game.
6. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Jim_Maryland · 2009-08-28 02:12 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  for an 80 to kill a 20 and camp the body is really ridiculous.
  
  Completely agree with you on that. I have no problem though with an 80 running through a low area once (example: Mid-Summer Festival quest/achievements) but staying there and repeatedly camping is crazy. Kill the low level once, then move on to whatever you have to do in the area.
  
  That should be considered dishonorable and the 80 should get some sort of reputation penalty for it.
  
  Wouldn't be completely opposed to this, but lets face it, don't most people already have an 80 or know an 80 that can come help them? Even just shouting in the local chat channel will draw other 80s to come solve a problem like this. Unless the reputation is associated with something the level 80 needs, I don't think most would worry about losing a bit (especially if they are already willing to camp someone so much lower than them).
7. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Tridus · 2009-08-28 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  When you do that, the gankers whine on the forums endlessly about how the game is too "carebear" now, and other such nonsense.
  Lots of developers listen to their forum whiners and thus don't want to do anything to stop it. In something like WoW, you can just join a PvE server and the problem basically doesn't exist. Unsurprisingly, the PvE servers are more popular then the PvP ones where ganking does exist (not that the pro-ganking forum whiners would ever want to acknowledge such a thing).
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
8. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 02:23 · Score: 1
  
  Or maybe just area level caps, if you go into an area that's for lower level characters you get dropped to their level automatically for the duration of your stay.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
9. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 02:39 · Score: 0
  
  You don't even have to keep track of who started the fight, if the lower level character (as more than five levels down, or gray or whatever the convention is) takes a swing or casts, the honor should be neutral. One shots of n00bs should have a significant demerit, (or chasing him down as he's trying to flee) but spanking a group of lowbies who are harassing you would be just fine.
  in my perfect world, at least.
10. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by dnaumov · 2009-08-28 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  Unsurprisingly, the PvE servers are more popular then the PvP ones where ganking does exist
  Proof or retraction. This claim couldn't be farther from the truth.
11. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by _Sprocket_ · 2009-08-28 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  I never understood why MMOs didn't implement some sort of PvP honor system that takes into account the difference between levels and awards or takes away from a players honorabilty, like a morality meter in some rpgs.
  This is an old debate WoW. This sort of system is only a deterrent if the losses are harder than the gains. That is, gaining honor is slower than losing honor for attacking a lowbie. And then you'll have griefers gaming the "morality meter" to screw with folks' hard-earned honor points.
  As SpartacusJones noted, WoW's honor points system was very different when it was first introduced. Honor wasn't a currency but a sort of meter. Honor was difficult to come by and very quick to lose when you attacked and killed a "civilian" NPC in a town. And nothing would break up a worldpvp raiding party faster than someone accidentally aggroing a civilian - eveyone in the raid lost honor for that kill.
12. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by gone9teen · 2009-08-28 03:28 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The one thing that people do not seem to know about Aion is that you can be ganked but there is 10+ channels to select to quest in. It's an option that quite a few don't know about until you get to near 15+. If you can't find an NPC you need in one channel? You switch channels and hope that it's there. If you are getting ganked in one channel you can switch channels and they would have to figure out which channel you were in to follow and each time you switch it takes time.
13. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Skuld-Chan · 2009-08-28 04:04 · Score: 1
  
  WoW used to do this. You'd lose honor for killing low level players and npc's. Not sure why they changed this. WoW these days is - help me if you are around, if not - better switch characters while someone camps your corpse.
  Lineage 2 has a system in place to prevent people from killing low level players. You lose karma, and if you lose enough (3-4 dishonorable kills - I forget...) people can take your hard earned epics when you die and guards from cities will attack you.
14. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 05:40 · Score: 0
  
  May seem anecdotal but every time I've logged in and changed realm (because I play multiple realms) and bothered to look at the realm listings, the pvp realms always had much lower traffic/population than the PVE/RP realms.
  I also see a lot of posts on forums where people say they're much happier on the pve realms where they can still do arena and battlegrounds for pvp and not get ganked.
15. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by changedx · 2009-08-28 07:02 · Score: 0
  
  Using the Warcraftrealms census on level 10-80 characters on US and EU realms:
  
  PVE server population = 3.16 million
  PVP server population = 2.21 million
  
  PVE-RP server population = 709k
  PVP-RP server population = 256k
  
  http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php
16. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by AP31R0N · 2009-08-28 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  MPRGs with Gygaxian power curves are like this... aside from the Warhammer game which turned n00bst0mpers into chickens. i didn't reach level 20 so i can't say anything about the PvP specifically. In general, when you're in a PvP area in a power curve game... bring your friends.
  PlanetSide (an MFPS) doesn't have n00bst0mping because it has a shallow power curve. Give it a look.
  
  --
  Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
17. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Hausenwulf · 2009-08-28 08:30 · Score: 1
  
  I loved Planetside. Unfortunately, they weren't able to respond to community complaints quickly enough which resulted in populations too low to sustain interesting battles. Their core combat add-on just further fragmented the already low population. Here's hoping for a Planetside 2.
18. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by Tridus · 2009-08-28 08:40 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Actually its entirely true. Someone beat me to the Warcraftrealms stats.
  So, I've got that. I've also got the server count, showing more PvE/RP (129) servers then PvP/RP-PvP ones (112). And on top of that, the average population is higher on the PvE side (3.9 million to 2.5). More PvP servers run at low population then PvE servers do.
  Now, what have you got to disprove it?
  It's a fundamental reality - more people dislike being ganked then like ganking. Which makes sense, really. There's nothing very cool about one shotting someone who can't fight back unless you're some kind of reject that is terrible at the game and thus can't beat players your own level. ... so to quote you, proof or retraction. :P
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
19. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 08:44 · Score: 1
  
  Unsurprisingly, the PvE servers are more popular then the PvP ones where ganking does exist
  
  Proof or retraction. This claim couldn't be farther from the truth.
  (I'm responding only to the bolded part). Yeah, ganking exists even on PvE servers, but you kind of have to ask for it. The first time I was ever ganked was in STV right after killing Samantha Swifthoof (which flags one for PvP) and I was sitting on my horse talking to one of the quest givers in the Nesingwary camp. I got over it.
  I've been corpse camped a couple of times too. A call for help to level capped guildies solved that.
  "It's better to give than to receive."
  And I've ganked myself. Some lowbie who was along for the ride in a raid on The Exodar strayed too far from his herd so I killed him. His mates were on the boat heading back to Auberdine, so I hope he had a fun time retrieving his corpse.
  I'm still a carebear. If you or I have done something stupid, I think that makes us fair game and that's why I like PvE servers. So, sue me.
20. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by regular_gonzalez · 2009-08-28 13:44 · Score: 1
  
  Age of Conan does this -- if you gank people more then (iirc) 8 levels lower, you get murder points. The lower their level, the more murder points. If you have any murder points, all city guards will kill you on sight, vendors won't trade with you, etc. You have to work them off via questing. I can count on one hand how many times I've been killed by someone more then 8 levels above my own, due largely to this system.
  
  --
  Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
21. Re:Gameplay beyond level 20: Unfair ganking. by donweel · 2009-08-29 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  I believe Warhammer Online uses the chicken system. High level characters entering starting areas are turned into chickens, which can be ignored or killed by other players.
  
  --
  Many a long talk since then I have had with the man in the moon; he had my confidence on the voyage. Joshua Slocum
Played the Closed Beta by ShakaUVM · 2009-08-27 23:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

I played the closed beta. It's not terribly impressive. People have been excited about the graphics, but they're kind of outdated... maybe top of the line stuff for 2004 or so. There are a few impressive areas in the game, though.
Gameplay and questing is not terribly fun. If you've ever done a Kill 30 Wasps or Gather 10 Herbs quest, you've done them all, and AION has a lot of this kind of stuff. I guess there's a story or whatever to read, and IIRC some quests have different options, but by and large I was completely bored while leveling up my character.
While I would like someone to knock WoW off its high horse (because the game really isn't designed as well as they think it is), I doubt AION is going to be it.
1. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 00:03 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  Oh come on, who could get bored with that?
  "Only you [and all the players around you] can save our village! Travel to the far-away mystical land of Boringtoss [run along that road for 5 minutes]. Then kill 1,000,000 [identical] Orcish Barbarian Wizards [special attack: sap your will to live]. Gather the Borestone that each of them carries [for no apparent reason]. Bring me back the Borestones and I will give you one gold piece and ten experience points [so if you do this a few hundred times, you'll go up a level, yay]. Now remeber to play for at least 10 hours a day, or your friends will level faster than you, and then you'll be left behind with no friends."
  It's almost like these things are part of a conspiracy to make us learn to love our actual real-life jobs
2. Re:Played the Closed Beta by blackraven14250 · 2009-08-28 00:28 · Score: 1
  
  At least they give run speed scrolls.
3. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Opportunist · 2009-08-28 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  Search YouTube for some old Tabula Rasa (pre 2005) demos and be surprised how much alike it looks. I'm almost tempted to say they recycled some of the old graphic they didn't use for TR to make Aion now.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
4. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 01:50 · Score: 0
  
  I guess there's a story or whatever to read, and IIRC some quests have different options, but by and large I was completely bored while leveling up my character.
  Bwuh?
  Is it just me, or are you saying "I randomly clicked buttons until I got quests and leveled up, and it was really boring"?
  Guess what else is boring if you skip all the text? Just about every single RPG ever.
5. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 06:04 · Score: 0
  
  People have been excited about the graphics, but they're kind of outdated... maybe top of the line stuff for 2004 or so.
  Really? So Aion is just on par with EverQuest 2? City of Heroes and WoW were also released in 2004, is it only marginally better than those?
  Maybe try playing with something better than EGA. Aion has amazing graphics and a beautiful game world... no serious reviewer has complained about those, so something tells me you're just a troll.
6. Re:Played the Closed Beta by AP31R0N · 2009-08-28 07:40 · Score: 1
  
  Did you get your wings?
  
  --
  Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
7. Re:Played the Closed Beta by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 08:54 · Score: 1
  
  While I would like someone to knock WoW off its high horse (because the game really isn't designed as well as they think it is),
  So what's your problem? Unsubscribe! I like endless days of collecting Murloc eyes and sorting through monster dung for Nagrand Cherries.
  And WoW works (quite well) on my Mac and Aion does not. It's a no brainer.
8. Re:Played the Closed Beta by ShakaUVM · 2009-08-28 09:49 · Score: 1
  
  >>Really? So Aion is just on par with EverQuest 2? City of Heroes and WoW were also released in 2004, is it only marginally better than those?
  It's better than WoW, certainly. But WoW intentionally went for, what did they call it?, the "epic cartoon look". To me, it looks like all the buildings were made out of folded construction paper.
  I mean that the graphics are about equivalent to video games that came out in 2004. When did Far Cry come out? 2004. And Far Cry looks better than this game, which uses the same engine, incidentally.
  >>Maybe try playing with something better than EGA. Aion has amazing graphics and a beautiful game world... no serious reviewer has complained about those, so something tells me you're just a troll.
  I play with all the detail settings turned on, at about 30fps.
  And yeah, the reason I posted that was because I was tired of hearing all the bullshit from the reviewers about how beautiful the game is. There's a few nice areas, but by and large it is unimpressive.
9. Re:Played the Closed Beta by ShakaUVM · 2009-08-28 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  Search YouTube for some old Tabula Rasa (pre 2005) demos and be surprised how much alike it looks. I'm almost tempted to say they recycled some of the old graphic they didn't use for TR to make Aion now.
  I actually played TR. There's not much similarity.
10. Re:Played the Closed Beta by ZerothAngel · 2009-08-28 11:23 · Score: 1
  
  I actually played TR. There's not much similarity.
  But have you seen a Tabula Rasa video like this?
  I believe this is what the grandparent post was referring to. It looks nothing like the Tabula Rasa that was actually launched. It was more fantasy and magic back then.
11. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Opportunist · 2009-08-29 00:28 · Score: 1
  
  TR also didn't have much in common with the original concept of TR. Or how many harp-playing magic users did you see in the finished TR?
  Take a look at this. And tell me that's the game you played. Yes, this is TR, before they went from fantasy to scifi.
  And even as a scifi game it looks like more fun than Aion. Aion is just another "stand and deliver" MMO, like the billion othres that clutter the net today. TR at least tried something new. Yes, it failed. But I doubt it was because of the FPS'esque control system, personally I think that was one of its strong points. Unfortunately, also maybe the only one it had.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
12. Re:Played the Closed Beta by Opportunist · 2009-08-29 00:31 · Score: 1
  
  Pretty much, yes. And if you ask me, that indecisiveness (Fantasy? SciFi? Mix? Something else?) was what sunk this game. It was released a year before it was done, but the VCs got, understandably, quite cold feet when they saw year after year pass and million after million sink into the game without any ROI on the horizon. Ironically, TR was quite playable and fun when it was closed down, a year after its release.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by rodrigoandrade · 2009-08-28 00:21 · Score: 1

Really, I was really excited about Aion, but all that excitement vanished once I learnt from the official web site the game cost $50 PLUS monthly fees. Sorry, nowadays I just don't spend that much time gaming to justify paying monthly fees, no matter how awesome the game is (otherwise I'd be another WoW addict).

The sad part is that NCSoft will likely abandon the incredible F2P Atlantica Online in favor of Aion.

Back to Perfect World, I guess, the best MMORPG I've ever played, period.
1. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 01:28 · Score: 0
  
  The sad part is that NCSoft will likely abandon the incredible F2P Atlantica Online in favor of Aion.
  Altantica Online is from NDOORS, not NCSoft. I guess all Asian companies look alike to you, you racist.
2. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Ultra64 · 2009-08-28 01:35 · Score: 1
  
  "Back to Perfect World, I guess, the best MMORPG I've ever played, period."
  That's not really saying much if you are excluding all the pay for play games.
3. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Yosho · 2009-08-28 01:44 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Really, I was really excited about Aion, but all that excitement vanished once I learnt from the official web site the game cost $50 PLUS monthly fees. Sorry, nowadays I just don't spend that much time gaming to justify paying monthly fees, no matter how awesome the game is (otherwise I'd be another WoW addict).
  If you look at it in terms of entertainment per hour per dollar spent, MMORPGs are actually quite cheap. Let's say you play WoW quite casually -- you occasionally hop on for just a little bit during the weekdays and then put in a few solid hours on the weekend. Maybe 5 hours per week, total. The Battle Chest (original + BC expansion) will cost you $40, then $13 per month. You don't need the WotLK expansion right away; if you're only playing a few hours a week, the original + BC will last you for quite a while. After six months, that'll be a total of about $118 for 120 hours of entertainment, so less than a dollar per hour.
  Compare that to going to see a movie, where you can expect to spend $8 - $10 for maybe an hour and a half or two hours of entertainment. Also compare it to buying non-online games, where a new game will cost you maybe $50 and last for maybe 20 hours (it varies, of course, since different games have wildly different lengths -- that's a rough estimate). You could also compare it to spending an evening barhopping, and going anywhere good will cost you way more per hour than that...
  So, MMORPGs with a monthly fee are really a pretty cheap form of entertainment compared to many alternatives. The best part, though, is that the presence of a monthly fee keeps away kids who can't convince their parents to pay for their subscriptions! It doesn't keep all the kids away, of course, but it definitely makes a difference. Heck, I'd be willing to pay $20 a month for a WoW-quality game that only allowed you to play if you were over 21 and had a full-time job...
  
  --
  Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
4. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 02:27 · Score: 1
  
  You make the assumption that the hours in an MMO are entertaining.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
5. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by space_jake · 2009-08-28 02:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  If you want a mature-ish WoW experience. Join a mature guild and turn off all of the public channels.
6. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Yosho · 2009-08-28 03:03 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If you don't consider MMOs entertaining, why would you even want to play a free one?
  Heck, why would you have clicked on this article?
  
  --
  Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
7. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Draek · 2009-08-28 03:08 · Score: 1
  
  If you look at it in terms of entertainment per hour per dollar spent, MMORPGs are actually quite cheap.
  But still nowhere as cheap as offline gaming, online FPSs, or free online RPGs.
  
  The best part, though, is that the presence of a monthly fee keeps away kids who can't convince their parents to pay for their subscriptions! It doesn't keep all the kids away, of course, but it definitely makes a difference.
  
  Does it? all I've seen about WoW suggests that the community is filled with stat-whores who won't give you the time of the day if you can't do $X of DPS and have at least an $Y level armor, and that a 'casual' gamer has no chance of *ever* finding a good party (defining 'good' as 'can speak proper english and is willing to help newbies with their shortcomings instead of writing "gtfo nub"') withotu joining a mature, respectable guild. In other words, exactly the same as most free MMOs.
  
  --
  No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
8. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Dutch+Gun · 2009-08-28 03:40 · Score: 1
  
  The sad part is that NCSoft will likely abandon the incredible F2P Atlantica Online in favor of Aion.
  Yes, I'm sure they're abandoning all their free to play MMOs once Aion is out.
  
  --
  Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
9. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Tensor · 2009-08-28 04:04 · Score: 1
  
  Heck, I'd be willing to pay $20 a month for a WoW-quality game that only allowed you to play if you were over 21 and had a full-time job...
  
  That would be awesome... an adult-filled MMORPG (not necesarily adult-themed) ... where you play with people that have a life and can't be 20hrs a day online leveling... and can actually type a full sentence.
  
  Sweet...
10. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by KDR_11k · 2009-08-28 04:56 · Score: 1
  
  MMOs apparently start out entertaining for many before turning into more of an obsession than entertainment. I can't really speak for them because I get bored pretty quickly. No idea if an MMO could be designed in a way that would make me care but I do believe so.
  
  --
  Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
11. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by illumin8 · 2009-08-28 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  The sad part is that NCSoft will likely abandon the incredible F2P Atlantica Online in favor of Aion.
  You're wrong. NCSoft doesn't have anything to do with Atlantica Online. Atlantica Online is run by a company called Ndoors.
  
  --
  "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
12. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 07:48 · Score: 0
  
  But still nowhere as cheap as offline gaming, online FPSs
  Only if those are free -- as the previous poster pointed out, in fact, your typical offline games will end up costing you more than a monthly MMORPG.
  
  or free online RPGs
  Well no shit. Thanks for letting us know, Captain Obvious. You've really added a lot to this discussion.
13. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Hausenwulf · 2009-08-28 08:38 · Score: 1
  
  It reminds me of smoking. I was a 3 pack a day smoker until I quit cold turkey. While in the process of quitting, I would fidgit and wonder what to do with my hands. What did I do before I started smoking? I don't know or at least I couldn't remember.
  It's the same way with mmo's. Most players play long past the point of being entertained. At some point it becomes merely a habit, and when you try to quit, it's hard to remember what you did with all that spare time before you started playing.
14. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Tridus · 2009-08-28 08:43 · Score: 1
  
  "Does it? all I've seen about WoW suggests that the community is filled with stat-whores who won't give you the time of the day if you can't do $X of DPS and have at least an $Y level armor, and that a 'casual' gamer has no chance of *ever* finding a good party (defining 'good' as 'can speak proper english and is willing to help newbies with their shortcomings instead of writing "gtfo nub"') withotu joining a mature, respectable guild. In other words, exactly the same as most free MMOs."
  What is known as a 'casual' guild also fits. Those are people not interested in hardcore pushing content, and go out to have fun. It means you progress more slowly, if at all. It also means people won't start yelling at you because you haven't dropped 1000g on an enchant five minutes after getting a weapon upgrade.
  Though my guild is pretty helpful, actually. It depends on the type of players you run with. Playing alone? Not so good, you'll run into a lot of jerks. Thats true in pretty well any MMO.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
15. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Draek · 2009-08-28 08:51 · Score: 1
  
  Only if those are free -- as the previous poster pointed out, in fact, your typical offline games will end up costing you more than a monthly MMORPG.
  The previous poster assumed you'd somehow grow bored of the game in less than a month, but tolerate the tedium of the MMORPG for at least half a year, *and* that you'd pay full retail price for the game, each time. I know plenty of people still playing Team Fortress 2 after almost two years, for a total cost of $30 for The Orange Box, and I know many who've spent a *lot* more than 20 hours on Fallout 3 and Oblivion, both of which can be gotten for a lot less than $50 nowadays.
  
  Well no shit. Thanks for letting us know, Captain Obvious. You've really added a lot to this discussion.
  By "free" I meant "with no monthly fees", though yeah, completely free ones also exist. The question is, however, if their existence was so obvious, why didn't the GP mention them in his post? hand-picking the comparisons to make your argument appear more solid than it is isn't a very good form of argument.
  
  --
  No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
16. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 09:05 · Score: 1
  
  You make the assumption that the hours in an MMO are entertaining.
  You make the assumption that the hour or two (plus any waiting in line) in the theater is entertaining. Whatever.
  If you don't like it, don't subscribe. I haven't felt compelled to go to a theater to watch a movie in years. That doesn't mean that I think others who enjoy that sort of thing should be denied the opportunity.
  What is it about people that they feel the need to eliminate something that others consider fun?
17. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  Heck, I'd be willing to pay $20 a month for a WoW-quality game that only allowed you to play if you were over 21 and had a full-time job...
  I see your point, but that would make the already miserable family support in WoW worse.
  /leave 2 and join an adult guild.
  Takes most of the childishness out of the game for me. And I *do* want my sons to play when they get a bit older and certainly before they are 21.
18. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  If you want a mature-ish WoW experience. Join a mature guild and turn off all of the public channels.
  Ah, I posted too soon. You are exactly correct.
19. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 09:18 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  all I've seen about WoW suggests that the community is filled with stat-whores who won't give you the time of the day if you can't do $X of DPS and have at least an $Y level armor, and that a 'casual' gamer has no chance of *ever* finding a good party (defining 'good' as 'can speak proper english and is willing to help newbies with their shortcomings instead of writing "gtfo nub"') withotu joining a mature, respectable guild.
  The community is so large that you can find your own niche of mature online players. I'm an MMO n00b (at least when I started) and I managed to find an outstanding guild within a month or so. I think you've never played and just want to WoW-bash.
20. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Draek · 2009-08-28 10:20 · Score: 1
  
  So, your experience of finding a guild with mature players somehow contradicts my assertion that you need to join a guild to find mature players?
  Good guilds exist in every MMO, free or not. My point is, if you can't join a random pick-up group and expect a significant majority of the players to act maturely then WoW isn't any better than the 'free' ones and, therefore, the GP's assertion that having a monthly fee improves the level of the community is false.
  
  --
  No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
21. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 10:58 · Score: 1
  My point is, if you can't join a random pick-up group and expect a significant majority of the players to act maturely then WoW isn't any better than the 'free' ones and, therefore, the GP's assertion that having a monthly fee improves the level of the community is false.
  It's a dumb assertion and it's dumb trying to refute it. People will be people and I defy you to find any self-selected group where you are guaranteed not to come across childish wankers, regardless of their RL age, whether it be WoW, WAR, Aion, or the US House of Representatives or US Senate.
  I'm not generalizing against specific groups that have two rules:
  Don't be a wanker.
  Refer to rule #1.
  But even those will have childish wankers try to sneak in, not that they may last for very long.
  You're tilting at windmills.
22. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Draek · 2009-08-28 16:26 · Score: 1
  
  People will be people and I defy you to find any self-selected group where you are guaranteed not to come across childish wankers, regardless of their RL age, whether it be WoW, WAR, Aion, or the US House of Representatives or US Senate.
  My point, exactly. I quote:
  
  The best part, though, is that the presence of a monthly fee keeps away kids who can't convince their parents to pay for their subscriptions! It doesn't keep all the kids away, of course, but it definitely makes a difference.
  
  Emphasis mine. It does not, therefore the GP is wrong, therefore he should use better arguments if he wants to defend monthly fees instead of that 'holier than thou' attitude since it's annoying, stupid, and wrong.
  
  --
  No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
23. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by SL+Baur · 2009-08-28 16:40 · Score: 1
  
  Bad hair day. It appears that you and I are arguing exactly the same point.
  Peace brother /.er.
24. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by donweel · 2009-08-29 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  Dungeons and Dragons Online Is going free to play September the 9th. If you participated in the beta or are a subscriber you get to start the new Eberron expansion on the 1st of September. They plan to make money using the in game store, selling expansions, potions and other game enhancements. You can still pay and be a VIP member which allows you more privileges.
  
  --
  Many a long talk since then I have had with the man in the moon; he had my confidence on the voyage. Joshua Slocum
25. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by drsquare · 2009-09-06 00:30 · Score: 1
  
  If you look at it in terms of entertainment per hour per dollar spent, MMORPGs are actually quite cheap.
  And if you look at it in terms of kg of food per dollar, McDonald's is better than a Michelin starred restaurant.
  Or maybe entertainment is more about quality than quantity.
26. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Yosho · 2009-09-06 02:14 · Score: 1
  
  And if you look at it in terms of kg of food per dollar, McDonald's is better than a Michelin starred restaurant.
  Or maybe entertainment is more about quality than quantity.
  Seriously? You went and replied to a topic thats over a week old just to make a lame food analogy and take a dig at WoW?
  You may not like it, but there are a lot of people who think WoW is a great game.
  
  --
  Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
27. Re:$50 + Pay 2 Play = No thanks! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-06 10:10 · Score: 0
  
  If I look at it in terms of entertainment provided per hour, then I'm not going to play a MMORPG. I get more playtime and entertainment out of my PS3 games, which I only pay (at max) $30 for. I would never pay $50+extra fees for something that I can get the same amount of entertainment value from any of my other games on my shelf.
School! by AtomG · 2009-08-28 01:30 · Score: 1

Just in time for school! Looks like another year mediocre performance for me!
1. Re:School! by leonardofelin · 2009-08-28 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  Don't worry. Games aren't addictive. I play games since I was 12 (31 now) and NEVER got addicted.
2. Re:School! by An+ominous+Cow+art · 2009-08-28 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  Don't worry. Games aren't addictive. I play games since I was 12 (31 now) and NEVER got addicted.
  I hope you've taken the occasional break to sleep, eat, etc.? :-)
Answer to competitor's launch ? by Atreide · 2009-08-28 02:53 · Score: 1

At the same time (the 5th I believe) Cryptic Studio is expected to launch Champions Online.
That MMO is a competitor to NCSoft City of Heroes.
By the way Cryptic developped and delivered City of Heroes to NCSoft a few years ago, then sold it to NCSoft.
Then Cryptic went on Champions.
Is it intriguing that NCSoft starts its new MMO at same time as Champions the competitor of its product CoH ?
If this is just calculated, then it may proove Aion is too young and not complete at launch time.

--
The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then :-(
1. Re:Answer to competitor's launch ? by toolie · 2009-08-28 04:02 · Score: 1
  
  If this is just calculated, then it may proove Aion is too young and not complete at launch time.
  You are aware that Aion has been released for almost a year in Asian markets and that the West version is starting at 1.5, right?
  
  --
  -- toolie
I don't care by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 03:05 · Score: 0

The game has a death penalty. Screw that.
Trolls don't give me an adrenalin rush. They just annoy me. The allure of the game is a sense of progress from the grind. The treat of having that taken away from some bored 16 year old punk does not make the game interesting...it makes it stupid.
Call me a care bear all you want. The appeal of a game isn't how much of a jerk I can be, nor how vulnerable I am to other jerks.
To quote a brilliant man, Andrew Ryan, "Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow?"
1. Re:I don't care by toolie · 2009-08-28 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  You think a penalty that is removed by spending a few coins at the healer is a real death penalty?
  Wow.
  
  --
  -- toolie
2. Re:I don't care by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-08-28 04:59 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Champions Online has a 5-star system. You die, you lose all your stars. They start building up the longer you fight and stay alive. The more you have, the more goose your powers get. Something like that.
  Anyway, back in the day, we didn't have no steenking slap on the wrist death penalties. No, your character died and you lost three levels of XP and had to go rescue your body within 30 minutes or it vaporized with all your stuff, and you liked it! >:-(
  That it was impossible for your now-naked group to fight its way back into the dungeon to the body area was part of the challenge! So you went and got a high level guy to wade in there and /drag your corpses out and hope he didn't /drag 'em deeper to the king's throne room.
  And if worse came to worse, your magnificent, tarnished two-hander, the first upgrade from rusty, and looted from a zombie in the desert, was gone. And you liked it!
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
3. Re:I don't care by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 06:40 · Score: 0
  
  Anyway, back in the day, we didn't have no steenking slap on the wrist death penalties. No, your character died and you lost three levels of XP and had to go rescue your body within 30 minutes or it vaporized with all your stuff, and you liked it! >:-(
  Vanguard still has this (well, not quite 3 levels, and you keep soulbound items). It makes death more meaningful. It also means that making an exit when needed is as much a part of your strategy as anything else.
Meh, Ill pass... by Kaldor · 2009-08-28 03:21 · Score: 1

Played the beta.... Another Korean grindfest MMO. NC Soft's track record is not that great. Their greatest achievements: CoH/V and Guildwars. Decent, but not great. Too many fails to mention. Go look at Wikipedia for a full list. Alot of people claim it has the best graphics of any MMO. AoC had great/best graphics of any MMO Ive seen, but was fail overall. Flying in PvP is lame. Adds another dimension for people to abuse as I can guarantee there are going to be bugs. Those that played DAOC can remember all the bugs water brought on in NF. Ganking lowbies is retarded. Only hastens the death of a server and game even if they are penalized. Leveling that is basically get 20 of object X and bring it to NPC Y to level, and then rinse and repeat that 500 time, equals grind. No MMO is perfect. Christ I beta tested "The Realm" way back in the day. Ive played almost every pay to play every major MMO out there from UO, EQ, DAOC, WoW, Lotro, AoC, And WAR. Im currently playing WAR, but will be quitting when my sub is up. Ive seen Aion, its not for me. I downloaded and reinstalled DAOC last night and am waiting for the new super cluster server to be created. Time to get back to the land of where casters are dangerous but killable and tanks get respect.
another mmo? by prozaker · 2009-08-28 03:24 · Score: 1

we haven't seen those in like 5 secs.
Spellcheck, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 03:41 · Score: 0

When is Semptember?
Spellcheck isn't that hard to do.
What an idiot! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-28 15:34 · Score: 0

"Another Korean grindfest"
WTF?
What a fucking retard.
Star Wars: The Old Republic(MMO) by teamsleep · 2009-08-28 20:54 · Score: 1

The new Star Wars: The Old Republic will destroy WoW, even with WoW's new expansion 'Cataclysm' coming out. Blizzard doesn't have a chance, people would rather play a kick-ass Sith Warrior or Bounty Hunter and kill innocent Jedi than what WoW offers. Crappy quests that you do the same of, just different variations; Collect 20 Wolf Fangs, Collect 10 Raptor Eggs, blah blah blah.
Plus in World of Warcraft you get a new expansion and always are leveling, never getting a chance to enjoy all the content. Maybe a year and you still haven't done everything but a new expansion comes out, so you miss that dungeon or instance. It gets tiresome. I was pissed when Burning Crusade came out, I had been 60 for a few months and all of a sudden I need to level up, gain more rep, do more grind quests. It's not even fun, you don't have 'fun' grinding quests. I only ever had fun doing high level raids and PvP.
I hope SW:TOR destroys Blizzard's precious money-making addictive social life destroying game. So for anyone waiting for a new, refreshing MMO that actually has real voice actors and not terrible voice-overs, wait for 2010 and check out Star Wars: The Old Republic.
Bye-bye World of Shitcraft!
1. Re:Star Wars: The Old Republic(MMO) by toolie · 2009-08-29 03:03 · Score: 1
  
  Depends on if EA is dumb enough to let ANY of the devs involved in the epic failure that was Warhammer touch it. If they keep the Mythic devs completely segregated and not even allowed to look at the BioWare staff, there is hope. If the Mythic people have anything to do with it, expect another train wreck.
  
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  -- toolie