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The Design Failures That Led To Rock Band
CNN is running an interview with Eran Egozy and Alex Rigopulos, founders of Harmonix, about the long road that eventually led them to the creation of Guitar Hero and Rock Band . It wasn't an quick or easy process, and the two worked on a number of unsuccessful concepts before arriving at the games that redefined a genre. Quoting:
"I was watching people interact with our product, and the realization came crashing down on me — we had spent 18 months on a music system that was fundamentally flawed. Karaoke isn't about personal expression. It's about people reproducing the songs they know as accurately as they can. The whole notion of adding improvisation elements just wasn't connecting. So I retreated to my hotel room and was depressed for the next two days. The company was on the rocks. We had zero revenue. We had been trying for four years to make something work. We were out of ideas. Those first four years had been a graveyard of mis-starts and product concepts that never made it anywhere. Worse, there was adequate information about two years into those four years to realize that our big concept was fatally flawed."
Does this mean Guitar Hero-Abba edition isn't coming out?
Since Harmonix no longer develops Guitar Hero, I'd say the information in the interview has no bearing on that question.
Bow-ties are cool.
CNN is running an interview with Eran Egozy and Alex Rigopulos, founders of Harmonix, about the long load that eventually led them to the creation of Guitar Hero and Rock Band.
What, were they making C64 games?
...thinking that other people are creative too.
Most people aren't (or at least, not in that artistic sense). Adding elements that require improvisation or creativity just makes the game like work for those who aren't inclined that way. There's nothing necessarily wrong in pandering to an audience that would prefer to be entertained rather than try to entertain themselves. That's why rail shooters are popular and Deus Ex was a flop.
They claim they sold to MTV because :"Harmonix has always been about music first -- games are a means to an end for us"
I wish MTV was about music. For at least the last decade its been all trash reality tv and teen celeb gossip.
Call it what you want. They still developed 2 incredibly popular gaming franchises. And had you read the article, youd see that they first tried to be creative, letting people create and modify music (adjust pitch by hand movements and such) but it failed as a final product. This was because for non musicians it simply was boring. For the average person they want to feel like they are playing/singing their favorite tune. When Red Octane approached them with a guitar controller idea, that's when they realized a a rail style game would be fun for the average person, and could be a hit.
Don't blame the game makers because of this, blame the GAMERS. The article was quite a good read, and I never knew how much failure the guys went through before landing on Guitar Hero. Next time you might want to read the article before posting such a useless comment.
If I have to listen to any more GH1 and GH2 I'll climb a clock tower.
I'm assuming you are referring to the music for GH1/2, not the game itself. I can't speak for Guitar Hero, but for Rock Band the game never seems to get old because of the new music I am able to download. Sure, if you have to keep playing or hearing the same songs over and over it can get old, but every Friday I check on Wikipedia to see what songs are being released the following Tuesday. I'm not a big fan of purchasing music (I will admit it - I downloaded most of my MP3 collection) but I think that the Rock Band songs are well worth the money. The amount of entertainment they can provide, when I have a bunch of friends over on a Friday night playing RB until the early morning hours, is well worth it to me. I also pre-ordered Beatles RB and will hopefully be playing it on September 10th and most likely well into the morning hours on the 11th.
Having to pay $100> for a new controller+game for each release borders on extortion
What? At least for the 360 version, the same Guitar Hero controllers work for GH2, GH3, GH4, Rock Band, and RB2. Also the PC version of GH3 (& I presume 4).
The Rock Band controllers don't work for the GH games, but they are at least portable from RB to RB2. My understanding is that on the PS3 the GH->RB transition doesn't work either. But even these are still a far cry from having to buy new controllers each release...
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that you've never seen it or played it. It isn't about learning to make music, it's about getting a simulated experience of being a guitar god without having to go through all the work. You get on there, and the crowd cheers when you do well, and the boo for you when you do badly. It's all the excitement of being on stage, without having to go through the work to get there. It's not about pretending to play the guitar, it's about pretending to be a........Guitar Hero. And it works. It's exciting.
Qxe4
Yes and no. I find it completely insane that they don't mention guitar freaks in the article, when they mention karaoke revolution and say that Konami talked to them about it.
The article is about how they were doing something weird, that couldn't be explained to people who didn't play it, and it didn't sell. Then they sold some games, that also didn't sell well. Then Konami gave them a shitload of cash and credibility, they did something else that sucked, then Red Octane was like "Well fuck, we already rip off DDR and have a deal to rip it off even more with ITG let's get these guys to rip off another popular bemani game Konami hasn't brought over to America yet". And bam, two extra buttons and a whammy bar on a piece of plastic later, we have America's guitar hero. Then they were like "But wait, in Japan they can play keyboard, guitar and drums together. (maybe karaoke and ddr, though I don't think DDR was in there.. it's not in rock band so I'm assuming it didn't interface with konami's instrument games either ;)) So how about we do that?"
And then we ended up with a shitty ripoff of drum mania and a combination with karaoke revolution. It's annoying, because the guitar controller for rock band is far superior to the official konami home drum mania controller that I used. But the game is just .. inferior. In pretty much all possible software-related ways. Oh well. I still play it since it's about the songs, and none of my friends know any of the songs I'd play given the chance.
Though just be glad they didn't make ITG, can you imagine what they'd have us dancing to?
Whoa, way to confuse "I just want to play a game for an hour" with, "I think I need a new vocation".
Seriously guys, who in their right mind honestly believes that there is any correlation between Rock Band/Guitar Hero and learning to play a guitar. The two have absolutely nothing in common. People play guitar hero or rock band for a bit of fun, they have no interest in learning how to play a guitar.
Just like most people would rather play Halo than to build a FPS.
Actually that is a lot closer a correlation:
Guitar Hero/Rock Band = Playing Halo
Learning to play a guitar = Writing and designing a game.
So get off of your bloody high horses and realise that this is all about ENTERTAINMENT, not CREATIVITY.
I am not stubborn. I am right!
They have of course gone the other way. Kids now think controllers make music.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
I've seen people play Crysis. I've never played it. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think that there are some kind of weapons and enemies displayed on a monitor and you try to use the weapons to shoot them. Allow me to suggest an alternative. Buy a real gun and go to the shooting range. Buy a selection of guns, and practice until you're good. When you feel good and up to it, consider joining the Army so you can shoot real life people in the middle east. I've seen people play Forza. I've never played it. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think that you take a plastic controller and maneuver a car around a racetrack displayed on a monitor, avoiding other vehicles at the same time. Allow me to suggest an alternative. Buy a sports car and go to your local track. Practice driving a lot, trying to avoid accidents. When you feel good and up to it, consider joining organized races at the racetrack. Wait, that sounds stupid.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
Learn how to play a real freakin' guitar.
Don't really want to. Does that mean I'm not allowed have have innocent fun without people telling me I'm not allowed to? I can go get drunk and have a bunch of idiotic fun with my friends right now, without having to spend years learning guitar, and decades to actually be good at it. For what? Growing up (too late) to be a rock star, like the people I acknowledge will always be much better than me at it. I'm never going to be Adam Jones, or Pete Townsend, or Les Paul, or Tom Morello, or Slash, or... You get the point.
Can I play racing games without being an Formula One racer? Can I play an FPS without joining the Marines? A sports game with out being professional Athlete?
Does this also apply to books and movies? I watched the X-Men movies, and I'm not a mutant. I read the Bible, and I'm not God (or even Christian).
Relax, people do what they want. Its harmless fun. And on the upshot, a certain percentage of the people who play might actually get interested in music, and learn to play something real. Stop caring about what people do, you'll live a longer happier life.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
As stated above: Relax, and stop caring what people do for fun. You'll live a longer, happier life that way.
I love music, but I'm not a musician (unless you count playing the jews harp), don't have the desire to be one either. I support my local musicians, half of my friends are musicians (who play, surprise, Rock Band), I buy them beer, and hype their shows. I don't get my music for free, I pay real money for it. I every time a band is in town that I like I go to it, and spend money on t-shirts to show my support. But I also think Rock Band is a very fun game to play, especially with a couple of beers in my gut. Oddly enough, I also play it with a lot of my friends who are musicians, some of whom are (locally) successful ones. Odd, some of them have seemed to realize that music isn't "serious business". Some of them, I might add, are pretty serious, and classically trained.
And, as I also stated earlier, these games might get a certain percentage of their players actually interested in music. Interested enough to actually pick up an instrument and make their neighbors life hell for awhile. They force people to actually LISTEN to the music that they enjoy, deeply. Not all of them, obviously, but some. This is actually somewhat noble, being that most of the schools I know of have dropped any music programs that they used to have. This, to me as a non-musician, is tragic, as the selection of music would go up if people actually appreciate it.
Another fun thing, the drums in Rock Band is actually decent training for real drums, as is the bass guitar, since they teach actual rhythm and beat, which is pretty difficult to actually grasp for most of us.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
What's funny is that the people who say "learn to play a real guitar" usually don't actually know how to play a real guitar. I play a real guitar. I've spent a considerable amount of money on guitars and stacks and pedals over the years. I even did my part for aspiring guitarists by putting a bunch of tabs up on OLGA back in the mid 90s.
I still love playing Rock Band with my wife.
GH/RB are extremely popular with real musicians. You always hear about them playing on their tour bus.
Hell, did you even read the article? Dhani Harrison is a real musician, plays a real guitar, and "was up all night playing guitar hero".
We know the next part. You don't even own a television.
I've seen people play Forza. I've never played it. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think that you take a plastic controller and maneuver a car around a racetrack displayed on a monitor, avoiding other vehicles at the same time. Allow me to suggest an alternative. Buy a sports car and go to your local track. Practice driving a lot, trying to avoid accidents. When you feel good and up to it, consider joining organized races at the racetrack. Wait, that sounds stupid.
A great many people actually do this. It's fun, and not all that expensive to "race" an old Miata around cones in a parking lot, or on a lower budget some to the bigger go-kart stuff.
Seriously, video games can be fun, but so can actual real-life hobbies. You don't have to be good enough at playing the guitar to make a living in order to really enjoy playing. You don't have to be a professional driver to really enjoy amatuer racing. Climbing can be great fun if you live close to mountains. Shooting at real people is of course discouraged, but IDPA shoots are more fun than any PC shooter. Most of this stuff is cheaper than a high-end gaming rig, too.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
When you feel good and up to it, consider joining the Army so you can shoot real life people in the middle east.
I've tried that way (not the middle east, but still). I'm still waiting for my friend to respawn...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I've seen people post on Slashdot. I've never posted on it. ...
D'oh!
I just developed an algorithmic composition applet, very similar to the first application by Harmonix. The users can control the music dynamically with the mouse. I thought it was unique idea, but these guys did it already 15 years ago!
I think their earlier ideas were much cooler than the Rock Band franchise, too bad they couldn't sell them.
I've seen people play World of Warcraft. I've never played it. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think that there are some kind of weapons and enemies displayed on a monitor and you try to use the weapons to kill them. Allow me to suggest an alternative. Buy a real sword and practice on a pell. Buy a selection of swords, and practice until you're good. When you feel good and up to it, consider joining the Crusades so you can kill real life people in the middle east.
I've seen people play Pac-Man. I've never played it. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think that there are some kind of dots and enemies displayed on a monitor and you try to eat the dots before you get killed. Allow me to suggest an alternative. Buy real pills and eat them until you're good. When you feel good and up to it, consider becoming a hypochondriac.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Oh. My. God.
I know that "LOL" and "new keyboard" are pretty much the most worn out cliches on the intarwebs, but when I saw the "Autism Rocks!" logo I came within an inch of spewing coffee across my computer and LOLed so loudly that my cat flew out of the room like someone had tased him. What's next, "I have EXTREME cancer!" t-shirts?
We're having some trouble hearing you guys down here. Can you descend to our level temporarily so we can receive the wisdom we so desperately need? It's probably our fault we can't hear. God, we're pathetic.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
You're missing the point of the game. Rock Band isn't about playing a guitar, it's about - doh - being in a rock band, just like Gran Turismo isn't about driving a car, but about racing.
Rock Band isn't a replacement for a real guitar, just like Gran Turismo isn't a replacement for the car in your garage.
I'm looking forward to your "People can't be bothered to drive real cars anymore" rant about racing games, though. It's always fun to read posts from people who have nothing better to do with their lives than complain about what other people do with their lives.
From the article:
We naively believed that if we, backed by a big publisher, created a game that was fun, it would be successful. What we failed to recognize was that you have to make games that are easily marketable.
They are saying Frequency and Amplitude were not the commercial successes they had hoped for. I can understand that: the two games have a rather abstract look and the music selection will not suit everyone's taste. However, I love the games because of the look and music selection. And because the different instruments are on separate tracks, which makes for more interesting game play than for example DDR.
I guess, in an incredibly over-simplified way, you're right. But of course, because it's oversimplified, it misses the entire point of the article (I'm guessing you haven't bothered to read it yet, and I would encourage you to do so, since it's very well written). Allow me to explain.
... by relying on Red Octane's cumulative experience creating peripherals for DDR to create a similar, but nonetheless novel, gaming experience using a guitar.
... by using their cumulative experience developing Guitar Hero to create a new game that improved upon the experience of the old game.
1. Red Octane, creator of many (excellent) DDR peripherals, approached Harmonix about making a game wherein you used a guitar-like controller (manufactured by Red Octane, of course) to play music. Harmonix agreed, and Guitar Hero was the result. So I guess you're right, they "copied" DDR
2. Harmonix developed Guitar Hero for Red Octane. Red Octane was acquired by Activision, who gained the rights to Guitar Hero through the acquisition. Harmonix was acquired by MTV, who wanted a game like Guitar Hero that they could sell themselves. The result was Rock Band, which is like Guitar Hero (it has guitars, and you play musical notes in a sequence displayed on the screen), but also includes a drum set and a microphone. So I guess you're right again, Harmonix "copied" Guitar Hero
You may not have noticed, but the kind of copying you describe is rampant in other industries, too. A lot of computer hardware seems suspiciously similar to older hardware. Newer car models bear a striking resemblance to older car models. Modern operating systems look a lot like their predecessors, not to mention their counterparts.
The point is, the "copying" you are so ready to dismiss is kind of an important way in which innovation proceeds. In fact, if you substitute the word "copying" with the words "building upon," you're much closer to the truth. A lot of innovation proceeds by incrementally improving upon what's already there. So your comment should have read:
"Guitar Hero built upon DDR and Rock Band built upon Guitar Hero."
There, fixed that for you.
The genius of what they did is that they made DDR for fat or lazy people.
Unsurprisingly, a DDR-like game where you're required to get much less exercise is much more popular in America.
(Yes, there are other reasons for that, too -- but that one's the funniest.)
Someone did think of it first: Konami. Notice that they mention Beatmania and DDR as inspirations, but curiously omit Guitar Freaks and Drum Mania...
GFDM are on something like their eighteenth release in Japan at the moment. Konami has been pumping out all manner of wonderful music games for over a decade now, they just really suck at publishing their shit abroad, much to the chargrin of the Western Bemani fanbase (which exists despite their best efforts, and believe me the use of 'despite' in that sentence was intentional).
I thought the most interesting part of the article was the bit about the Beatles and the way they're accidentally debunking Beatles urban legends in their trivia. I'm not much into gaming but I almost want to get it just for that. :)
I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's a little intellectually dishonest to respond to these article questions and not mention konami's guitarfreaks and drummania.
He's wasting his time then. He could be practising.
Yeah, in the old days the tour bus would bring along a slave-driver - any band members who did anything apart from practicing for their next show while in the tour bus would be flogged.
Nowadays they tend not to bring the slave-driver, and band members indulge in other activities and "relaxation" between the shows. They've gone soft!
Bow-ties are cool.
But the accessibility of the "real life" hobbies is MUCH more restricted than the video games. What, a couple hundred for a complete rock band kit? Less than $600 if you buy the system, too? Another $50 for a racing game? Are you telling me you'll be able to get track time, a car, gas, maintenance, everything for anywhere near that? Hell, even shooting is only barely that cheap, if you get a really shitty gun.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Seriously, you should expect these things to happen when you sell out to EA. Sucks to be you.
"They confiscated everything, even the stuff we didn't steal!"
Seriously, video games can be fun, but so can actual real-life hobbies.
How is playing video games not an "actual real-life hobby"?
... and then they built the supercollider.