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Cell Phone Cost Calculator Killed In Canada
inject_hotmail.com writes "Internet and law genius Michael Geist writes about some shenanigans by the cell phone carriers and the Canadian government in his column in The Star. Canadian taxpayers funded a 'Cell Phone Cost Calculator' so that the average person could theoretically wade through the disjointed and incongruent package offerings. The calculator wound up being yanked a couple weeks before launch. Geist suggests that the major cell carriers lobbied the appropriate public officials to have the program nixed because it would bite into their profit if the general public could make sense out of pricing and fees. Geist continues, 'Sensing that [Tony] Clement (Industry Minister) was facing pressure to block the calculator, Canadian consumer groups wrote to the minister, urging him to stick with it.' Moving forward, Michael makes a novel suggestion, one that would show an immense level of understanding by the government: 'With public dollars having funded the mothballed project, the government should now consider releasing the calculator's source code and enable other groups to pick up where the OCA (Office of Consumer Affairs) left off.'"
Obviously its in my best interest if the Phone Company wants to rape me in the ass with my Phone Bills. That's what it said on the TeeVee anyway.
to have the program nixed because it would bite into their profit if the general public could make sense out of pricing and fees
OMG competition! Think of the shareholders!
This is where you need free press that attack like a pack of pitbulls and demand to know who ordered the cancellation and why. Nothing teaches politicians honest like public humiliation.
It seems to be the worst country when it comes to vendor lock-in (firmware branding, sim locking), long contracts, high costs and craptastic prepaid packages. The one GSM network they have there (Rogers) is only GSM by technology, they use IMEI numbers to make sure people are using the right branded device for the data plan they're on. In any country where there is no CDMA that shit wouldn't fly, of course the Gubmint there don't feel like doing anything about it.
Believe it or not things are actually better in the States because in Canada absolutely nobody understands the concept of a SIM card or an unlocked phone. If I ever visit that country I'm taking an Iridium phone because I'd rather pay $1.45 a minute than support those goons.
Besides the sales assistants there have probably been brainwashed to outright refuse to sell any prepaid SIM cards they might have and do all they can to convince you to take out a 36-month contract even after clearly explaining to them you are only staying for two weeks
If they were serious about consumer protection they'd just pass a law that requires full clear standardized disclosure of pricing.
Failure should result in fines that have significant impact on shareholder value and should be grounds for terminating a contract.
Can we find the algorithm of this calculator anywhere and Streisand Effect it?
You just got troll'd!
'With public dollars having funded the mothballed project, the government should now consider releasing the calculator's source code and enable other groups to pick up where the OCA (Office of Consumer Affairs) left off.'"
That would only make sense if the government (the Conservative Party) weren't neoconservative. They aren't going to stick it to their main constituents; the business lobby and their sycophants. Of course, in these type of observations their will be neoconservatives claiming that the Conservative Party isn't Right Wing.
Since 2002 the "Norwegian Post and Telecommunication Authority" has had a calculator offering much of the same for the Norwegian market. In addition to mobile phones it also covers telephony and broadband. Basically, all providers are required by law to provide their pricing structures to the authority, so that the services can be compared. For mobile phones this will involve entering your typical number of minutes (to other mobile phones and landlines), text messages, mms messages and kilobytes.
I'm sure someone will moan that this is socialism, since it is a service that could be offered by the market, or that people could do themselves, or that services such as this can never be efficient anyway. There are some arguments against this: The Norwegian market is small (4.5 million people), with lots of mountains and a low population density, and strict rules about required coverage by the licensees. Manpower is also extremely expensive, and most workers are members of a union. So, clearly, Norway should have really high prices, right?
Wrong - according to the calculator my mobile phone costs should be about 0,- every month, with a 0,- establishment fee for the contract. (About 100 outgoing text messages, 100 minutes outgoing, and 1mb. No mms messages)
Why is this? It is of course hard to find the "perfect truth", but here are some informed guesses: The market is very regulated, in order to enforce competition. Perhaps the most important (to the consumer) point of this is that you can move your phone number to any other operator, either for free or for some very small cost. While there are only three GSM licensees there are 16 or so "virtual operators", who operate by putting a box inside the switches of the GSM licensees, and basically resell their bandwidth. The authority is also able to punish any collusion between the operators, and to require changes in price structures between the operators.
Clearly, all this (regulated) competition is good for the Norwegian consumer, but is it good for the telecom companies? The biggest Norwegian operator (Telenor) has according to wikipedia 143 million subscribers, so clearly all this competition does something to the companies, which can't be all bad. Telenor used to be a state-owned monopoly, which was well known for being hugely inefficient and slow. In markets where there can only be a limited number of providers (such as bandwidth in the GSM bands) there is no natural encouragement for companies to become more efficient, if you want to make more money it is easy to just add another hidden fee. Only by allowing for virtual operators and implementing the pricing calculator the benefits of having a market was realized.
(The same system was implemented for electrical power providers, but it failed for the banking system - allowing people to move their account numbers between banks was evidently too expensive..)
When corporations have the ability to use government policy as a tool to protect their private interests the correct term is not capitalism - it's called fascism.
It's corporatism, actually. Fascism goes a bit further with the State.
When corporations have the ability to use government policy as a tool to protect their private interests the correct term is not capitalism - it's called fascism.
This is absolutely correct and when it's in the early stages like this, very few people recognize the danger. They don't seem to grasp that this is not a situation that can improve on its own. On its own, it can only get progressively worse and by the time it's immediately and outwardly obvious that they are living in a fascist state, it's often too late for the people to do much of anything about it other than cower and curse their lack of foresight.
From the summary:
The attempt by the cell carriers to halt this project is all the more reason to go through with it. If anything, that should result in additional effort to not only produce the calculator but also to fund a media campaign so everyone knows it is available. The failure to understand this is all that you need to know in order to realize what a bunch of spineless, useless excuses for human beings (they are puppets really) our so-called leaders actually are.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
When are people going to begin to realise that as far as consumers go there is no free market. Sure you can get a better deal at carrier B than carrier C but you will never get the BEST DEAL POSSIBLE because they don't want to give it to you. Profit is paramount, but these guys are really taking it too far.
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
For those of us in the states, the Citizen Utility Board of Illinois (CUB) already has a calculator similar to this. Just upload a recent bill or two, and it will tell you what the cheapest plan is for you on each of the top carriers. http://www.citizensutilityboard.org/cellphonesaver.html
No one with access to the code cares enough to post it to Wikileaks? Strange..... Does Canada execute whistle blowers or something? I always thought they were at least as free as the United States. Someone put it out there, and let it go viral. Screw the politicians. Better yet, hope they drown in the saunas and pools they build in their back yards with all that bribe money.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I'm norwegian aswell, we have this calculator ( run by the state ), which works with interwebs and power aswell, and im sure allot of other things i havnt had the need for. You can buy -all- phones without contracts, -tis teh law!-
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
What I think is unappreciated or underappreciated about abominations like Mussolini is that nothing they did was a chance, coincident, or accident. They understood very well what they were working for and where it was leading and accomplished it by a series of carefully planned maneuvers, each one of which had its own excuse, its own official story. Usually that story says that this is necessary, good for the country, designed to safeguard the people, intended to stop a national enemy, or that lack of patriotism is the only reason to oppose it. Above all, there is a distinctive pattern to it and once recognized, it is easy to spot, even in its early stages.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
This sounds like the platform of the Conservative Party of Canada.
In Soviet Russia is "Cell Phone Cost Calculator" a common name? For boys or girls?
While this sounds like dishonest shenanigans on the part of the cellphone companies, I doubt it would have changed anything. Consumers are not the brightest bunch out there.
Nothing against their dignity as human beings, but by definition half the population is on the left-hand side of the bell curve.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-- H. L. Mencken (I'm sure this is true regardless of country)
This sounds like the platform of the Conservative Party of Canada.
Isn't it amazing how "conservative" once meant something like "reluctant to expend governmental resources" and has now come to mean "eager to increase the size and power and involvement of government, but for reasons different from the ones used by those who are called liberals?" Really, that's a neat trick.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
It seems to be the worst country when it comes to vendor lock-in (firmware branding, sim locking), long contracts, high costs and craptastic prepaid packages.
Actually... I'm not sure if there's a place where most of that isn't true. Japan, in particular, fits all of the above quite nicely (difference, of course, being the service quality).
Anyway, there is, in fact, a fairly decent prepaid provider in Canada - Speakout, branded by 7-11, and also Petrocanada, running on Rogers' network. The price per minute is high, but you can keep the credit for a year (depending on the amount, actually), and with frequent promotions you might even get a simple phone for free/cheap with around $50-100 credit.
Also, don't have much experience with Rogers directly (and even that is mostly negative), but I was able to get a Fido prepaid SIM card from a store without any issues or extra questions. The numerous billing/voicemail/etc. issues made me give up after two months, though...
Today it seems to be more about hands-off domestic corporations, encourage private alternatives to public systems, and alter laws to support home-grown international corporations. The media spins everything into a story and you don't have a story without conflict.
These days, democracy needs to be protected from private interests, and the Conservatives are caving in all the wrong places. I don't like them.
BTW, did you send in your membership to the Pirate Party yet?
But that's the ultimate result of all unmitigated capitalist systems. Despite what conservative libertarians believe, the invisible hand of the free market does not create an egalitarian utopia where the little guys can compete on even terms with the multi-billion-dollar megacorporations or international conglomerates.
Market forces (via economies of scale/scope) almost always push towards a single fully vertically and horizontally integrated monopoly. That's why Wal-Mart beats out little mom & pop stores. So, in order to force the reality of capitalism to reflect the ideal of capitalist competition, we have to create antitrust laws and industry regulations. But those things ultimately get in the way of corporate profits, so anyone supporting them is labeled a socialist (which is true in the sense that they care about society and social welfare over money and the economy). And if you're pro-capitalism then you must necessarily be pro-business and support deregulation.
The other problem is that, even though capitalism is supposed to be an economic theory, its effects tend to spill out into politics and other societal spheres. A capitalist society, by definition, is driven by capital. Wealth equates to power in a capitalist society. With wealth, you have access to better education, better health care, and better opportunities. Additionally, having better lawyers means you are treated better in the eyes of the law, and having powerful lobbies means you have exponentially more political influence than your less affluent brethren—and why shouldn't you? you have better nearly everything else, right? If Ayn Rand was right, and the captains of industry do carry the world on their shoulders, then why shouldn't they get to decide public policy? And if everyone's goal in life should be to get filthy rich and look out for only themselves, then can you really blame the politicians who sell out to powerful business interests?
So we shouldn't really be surprised by actions such as these. Everything from health, to education, to political influence is a commodity to be traded and sold. The economy has become an end in and of itself, and one that's more important than public good.
It seems that more and more everything in American Capitalism and it's "light" version : Canadian Capitalism is a game. There's the credit card game, the investing game, the phone bill game, the health care game, the tax system game. Everywhere there are these ridiculously complex games that are used to confuse and bilk people out of all their money. Mainly it hurts people who don't have the time, don't have the wits-- or in the case of the super complicated games like the tax game-- don't have the money to hire professional game players (lawyers, accountants) to help them win.
I'm hesitant to say this 'cause I know ./ is going to crash it,
But there's actually a privately developed calculator in beta right now.
cellplanexpert.ca
It's a work in progress and txting+data is yet to come, but otherwise it's very comprehensive. You can get a feel for how complicated plans actually are in Canada (if you care to actually research) from the long questionnaire process.
The big problem in Canada is that in most provinces, there are only 2 independent networks Rogers (GSM) and "Belus" (Bell in Ontario & Quebec + Telus in BC and Alberta - the two are co-dependant on each other's network -CDMA variants). So providers and all their various subsidiaries compete on who can best obfuscate the highest prices, not who can lower them the most. This means there are a plethora of options, features, hidden rates and costs to wade through. This might change if the new carriers emerging from the recent spectrum auction actuall stay independent, and are not bought out by the big players like the last round. In provinces where there's even 3 independent players (Saskatchewan, Manitoba) it's significantly more competitive.
Full disclaimer - it's my site.
In Soviet Russia is "Cell Phone Cost Calculator" a common name? For boys or girls?
No that would be in South Africa: "Ever since mobile phone services were introduced in KwaZulu-Natal some parents have named their children after some of the terms used by mobile services providers." My favorite is (mr. ?) Pay as you go Mfeka.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
I would love to see one of these for the United States cell territories.
Yes, because only aspiring dictators use bombastic rhetoric.
Everyone thinks Canada is our nice neighbors to the north (if they happen to be American). BUT they have a pretty corrupt government run heavily on business interests. For example it is illegal to photograph or even view baby seals being killed for fur (I wish I was making that up; check out Sea Shepherd for more) unless you have a license to kill seals. Laws like that make the scenario in the parent story entirely likely.
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
What I think is unappreciated or underappreciated about abominations like Mussolini is that nothing they did was a chance, coincident, or accident. They understood very well what they were working for and where it was leading and accomplished it by a series of carefully planned maneuvers, each one of which had its own excuse, its own official story. Usually that story says that this is necessary, good for the country, designed to safeguard the people, intended to stop a national enemy, or that lack of patriotism is the only reason to oppose it. Above all, there is a distinctive pattern to it and once recognized, it is easy to spot, even in its early stages.
That sounds precisely like what President Obama and his minions are doing here in the USA currently, even including the accusations of being "unpatriotic", "racist", and many others that have been leveled at people who are in opposition to his sweeping changes, insane spending in a recession, and takeover of the private sector. As you say, it's easy to spot even in it's early stages...it's just that one has to be willing to accept what ones' eyes and ears tell them, which has been the problem with people here in the US.
There's a reason why Obama has surrounded himself with self-avowed socialists and communists and '60s radical-types. It's not just poor vetting either. He's just gathering the people that have the expertise with the type of government he plans to transition us to, like Van "Che" Jones. When he vowed to "fundamentally change America" he was being perfectly honest.
Socialism/fascism/communism would be a fundamental change from capitalism.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
There is something surreal about a post putatively defending "consumers" from cell phone companies, when those consumers are being forced at the threat of gunpoint to fund a "cell phone cost calculator," while on the other hand their interactions with cell phone companies are entirely voluntarily.
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And sounds a lot like what was being accomplished by Bush. Unpatriotic was the charge leveled repeatedly. The insane spending was initiated by Bush. The only howls are because a few different groups are getting the payouts and bribes than the Republicans would have given. Many of the payouts are the same under either party. The key to recognize is that the corporations don't care which party is in charge as long as they have been thoroughly bought. In fact, by having 2 and only two parties, the parties can fight over 'issues' and make voting seem important, when the (big) corporations still win. And having small companies die is great for the big corporations because they get them for a song. And it's not stockholders who make out like bandits, it's the actual bandits, CEO's, CFO's and cronies, who have the SEC in their back pocket.
Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
But somehow, YOU'RE the one who's "anti-market" if you want to see this service work.
Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
I think they learned this from watching US politics.
Are US Political Speeches still considered "Canadian Content" on Canadian TV?
Yes, because only aspiring dictators use bombastic rhetoric.
Are you really that shallow? Serious. Fucking. Question. Because if you can't tell the difference between that, and what I was talking about, then there's really no point in discussing this with you. For the more perceptive folks who happen to read this thread, this is an educational opportunity. This, folks, is what denial looks like. Its most distinguishing feature is that it immediately dismisses the valid points I raised while making absolutely no effort to refute it, and does so while attempting to appear superior as evidenced by the overall smugness.
There's something even more dangerous than a wannabe dictator or a government that is heading in the wrong direction. That would be the many people with their heads in the sand who want so badly to believe that "it can't happen here" that they create the excuses, dismiss the warning signs, and ridicule the aware to the point that they virtually guarantee that it WILL happen here. If it doesn't happen here, that will be no thanks to these myrmidons.
Folks, this is so simple it's absurd. Government is not a perfect institution, which we know for a fact because there are no perfect institutions. We also know for a fact that no institution lasts forever. Because it is not perfect, and cannot last forever, government has a failure mode. Be it a military dictatorship or a police state, the failure mode of modern Western government is the totalitarian state. In order to share the parent poster's naive attitude, you would have to believe that both of these are true:
God damn it, both of those are false and you know it. You know it even if you won't admit it.
When a corporation can shut down a government Web site because it contains factual information that the corporation does not want people to know, that is one of your early warning signs. Go ahead and make excuses for it and tell me it's perfectly harmless; your reasoning will be limp-wristed and and your justifications will be half-hearted because you know deep down that I am speaking the truth.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Funny, I thought conservatism always meant valuing traditions and status quo and that's what republicans are mostly doing.
And sounds a lot like what was being accomplished by Bush. Unpatriotic was the charge leveled repeatedly. The insane spending was initiated by Bush. The only howls are because a few different groups are getting the payouts and bribes than the Republicans would have given. Many of the payouts are the same under either party. The key to recognize is that the corporations don't care which party is in charge as long as they have been thoroughly bought. In fact, by having 2 and only two parties, the parties can fight over 'issues' and make voting seem important, when the (big) corporations still win. And having small companies die is great for the big corporations because they get them for a song. And it's not stockholders who make out like bandits, it's the actual bandits, CEO's, CFO's and cronies, who have the SEC in their back pocket.
Please pardon how I put this, but it's a real pleasure to hear from someone who doesn't have his head up his ass. The two party duopoly is one of the pillars of our current situation, and there is unfortunately a shortage of people who can realize that on their own as you have done. As you seem to understand, the general naivete and encouraged ignorance has become so widespread that few people personally know the sharp insight and intuitive brightness which are not only available to human beings, but are in fact our birthright.
Naturally the ability to realize your own inner genius is the first thing that must be stolen from the members of the public in order to promote the kind of stupidity that would have ever allowed our status quo to happen. That, to me, makes this a different kind of evil far beyond the mere desire to be in charge and control others.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
First of all, "corporatism" in the context of Italian fascism is completely distinct from corporate businesses in 21st century Canada.
The word "corporatism" is derived from the Latin word for body, corpus. This meaning was not connected with the specific notion of a business corporation, but rather a general reference to anything collected as a body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
And on top of that, your quote is a total fabrication anyway.
Some critics equate too much corporate power and influence with fascism. Often they cite a quotation that has been attributed to Mussolini, although it doesn't appear in any of his texts: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." Several variations of the alleged quotation exist. However, no text written by Mussolini has yet been found with any variation of the alleged quotation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascism_and_corporatism
I hate the excessive influence of megacorporations (in the modern sense of corporations, catching on?) too but try to find a real precedent next time instead of spouting nonsense that makes us all look like incompetent asses.
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The words "corporate" and "corporatism" had very different meanings back then. For Fascists specifically, this meant something closer to Medieval professional guilds, and not at all what we today call "corporations".
For lack of mod point, amen to you both.
Mind the frickin' laser...
That is because fascist is the least understood and most often misused description of all political systems.
Nobody has a clear understanding of what exactly it means, in theory, or in practice.
Even the all inclusive, if not overly pedantic Wikipedia admits there is no common definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist
"No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition."
Of late, it has become the pejorative de jour for any system the speaker dislikes.
People would listen to you and buy you beers if you couched your criticisms in terms understood by those at the far.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
And sounds a lot like what was being accomplished by Bush. Unpatriotic was the charge leveled repeatedly. The insane spending was initiated by Bush. The only howls are because a few different groups are getting the payouts and bribes than the Republicans would have given. Many of the payouts are the same under either party. The key to recognize is that the corporations don't care which party is in charge as long as they have been thoroughly bought. In fact, by having 2 and only two parties, the parties can fight over 'issues' and make voting seem important, when the (big) corporations still win. And having small companies die is great for the big corporations because they get them for a song. And it's not stockholders who make out like bandits, it's the actual bandits, CEO's, CFO's and cronies, who have the SEC in their back pocket.
I totally agree, both parties are corrupt, Bush is/was part & parcel to the corruption, and the big corporations have seen this as opportunity to advance their interests. However, the corporations should realize that once the politicians have the power structure in place, they will all be nationalized and the ones in charge now in the boardrooms will be thrown out and the shareholders screwed out of their investments.
I believe that Obama and his minions (not all Democrats or liberals) are intent on taking this to a whole new level and are seeking to radically change the basic structure of this nation to more-resemble that of Venezuela or Cuba, and do it sooner rather than later.
The Democrat/Republican, liberal/conservative fighting going on and being egged on in the media and blogs is a distraction, merely a puppet show so the American people don't realize what is coming until it's too late to save the dream of Freedom that drove the Founding Fathers to form this great nation.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Funny, I thought conservatism always meant valuing traditions and status quo and that's what republicans are mostly doing.
The PATRIOT Act is an excellent example of something that was not the status quo. We haven't seen that kind of power grab in this country since Abraham Lincoln decided to suspend habeus corpus, jailed 18,000 or so "Confederate sympathizers" without trial, and spent money that Congress had not appropriated. Yet the Republicans who support the PATRIOT act call themselves "conservative." So, I must conclude that they are using the same word but the meaning has changed drastically. Perhaps for just that reason some refer to this relatively new generation as "neo-conservatives." Too bad that has become such a loaded word.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
That is because fascist is the least understood and most often misused description of all political systems.
Nobody has a clear understanding of what exactly it means, in theory, or in practice.
Even the all inclusive, if not overly pedantic Wikipedia admits there is no common definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist
"No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition."
Of late, it has become the pejorative de jour for any system the speaker dislikes.
People would listen to you and buy you beers if you couched your criticisms in terms understood by those at the far.
For this reason I sometimes call it statism. It's a nice, simple, easily-understood word that does the job and comes with none of the confusion that's built into many similar terms. It also sums up what fascism, communism, national socialism, and all similar systems have in common: the expansion of state power at all costs, the subordination of all significant aspects of life (such as economic and personal liberties) to an authoritarian state, and the devaluing of human life which must necessarily take place before anyone can believe that the people exist to serve the state rather than the other way around.
Honestly, if another totalitarian state should occur anywhere on the planet during my lifetime, the exact name of its political machinery will make little or no difference to me. I think for that reason, "fascism" is often understood to be interchangable with "statism" even though this is not technically correct. That's particularly true for those who have studied a little Latin and are familiar with the word "fasces" (a bundle of rods with an axe protruding) which was often touted as a symbol of (Roman) state power, with the implication being that state power for its own sake was considered desirable or "glorius." For the original fasces, the rods represented corporal punishment while the protruding axe represented execution by beheading, and it was meant to symbolize the state's power over life and limb. A similar sentiment is demonstrated by any politician who dreams of being your master, under any political system, which is probably why it's so difficult to come up with a single concise definition of "fascism."
Now if you want a deeper mystery, just think about how fucked up a person must be to actually want to live in an environment that is as thoroughly saturated with misery and human suffering as a modern totalitarian state. Even if you could be in charge of it, why the hell would you want to live there in such a poisonous environment?
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The words "corporate" and "corporatism" had very different meanings back then. For Fascists specifically, this meant something closer to Medieval professional guilds, and not at all what we today call "corporations".
I'll be honest with you, this looks like splitting hairs for no good reason. Whether it's a modern corporation or a guild, this is how it works: $NON-GOVERNMENTAL-ENTITY ($NGE) acquires undue influence over the state, to the point that the state begins to represent the interests of $NGE more than it represents the interests of its general public. The state and $NGE learn to work together, so that anytime $NGE needs to get something done that it is not authorized to do, it knows it can grease a few palms and get the state to take care of it. Or, it knows that it can do those things itself and the state will look the other way. Likewise, if the state needs to get something done and wants to avoid scrutiny by not going through official channels, then the state turns to $NGE. Working together, as a duopoly of sorts, they can make sure that the people have no voice in politics anymore, though to prevent a revolution before their power is fully consolidated, they might allow the illusion that the people still have any degree of control. When this is complete, both of them view the people as a dehumanized resource to be mined and exploited as much as possible, like so much oil or lumber. The $NGE will do this by amassing wealth, while the state will often do this by amassing armies and fighting pointless aggressive wars, often against nations that were never a threat to it.
Honestly, whether $NGE is an LLC, a sole proprietorship, a non-profit organization, or a medieval guild makes no difference to me whatsoever. The process is the same because it's a very general and time-tested process that has occurred more than once throughout history.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I'll be honest with you, this looks like splitting hairs for no good reason. Whether it's a modern corporation or a guild, this is how it works: $NON-GOVERNMENTAL-ENTITY ($NGE) acquires undue influence over the state, to the point that the state begins to represent the interests of $NGE more than it represents the interests of its general public.
Not at all. So long as we're talking about fascism, keep in mind that this is an ideology, the founders of which came up with the word "totalitarianism" as we use it today, and defined it as "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state". There are no NGOs in a fascist state, by definition of said state! In particular, any guild-corporations were also government-run, and membership in them mandatory. They were run not in the interests of their owners, but solely in the interests of the state (as defined by its rulers).
A few other choice quotes from "The Doctrine of Fascism":
Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State.
The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State.
The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and useful instrument in the interest of the nation. In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.
State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management.
So, fascism is a system wherein corporation-guilds (just like everything else) are subjugated to the interests of the state, and not vice versa. What we have today, a system where corporations simply buy out the otherwise-elected governments wholesale, is pretty much the direct opposite of that. The only common thing about them is that general public is screwed either way.
That's particularly true for those who have studied a little Latin and are familiar with the word "fasces" (a bundle of rods with an axe protruding) which was often touted as a symbol of (Roman) state power, with the implication being that state power for its own sake was considered desirable or "glorius." For the original fasces, the rods represented corporal punishment while the protruding axe represented execution by beheading, and it was meant to symbolize the state's power over life and limb."
I wonder if your interpretation was indeed the historical one, or one invented much more recently.
Those old enough to remember the Mercury Dime from 1916 thru 1945 will remember that symbol on the back.
Images and history here:
http://blog.numismaticnews.net/flipside/Our+Fascist+Dime.aspx
At that time, the symbol was explained as a symbol of the strength which lies in unity, while the battle-ax stands for preparedness to defend the Union.
Long since replaced by a torch, one has to suspect that future generations will accuse the US of officially sponsoring eco-terrorism.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
indeed.
Funny, the conservatives were always pretty damn keen on some government resources. It has hardly ever meant it.
Classics fail. Regulations are considered important to stop trusts and the secretive trade guilds that ended up forming around different trades. An unregulated market doesn't mean nothing is unregulated, and it also means no single monopoly gets to be in charge.
We have fascism here in the U.S. too. But here's the thing, life is too good to do anything about it. People, well most people, will happily put up with fascism if they still eat well and mostly do what they want. Why? Because the cost of stopping fascism (revolution) is deemed not worth it. Even a mini-revolution, say, the public execution of 10 or 15 "officials", is too risky or costly for anyone involved, no matter how much it is warranted.
ALL parties want bigger government.
It's fascinating to watch the mod battle on my comment above.
Starting Score: 1 point
Moderation -1
40% Offtopic
30% Flamebait
30% Insightful
Extra 'Offtopic' Modifier 0 (Edit)
Total Score: 0
Seems like I've stirred up quite the mod-battle. I guess that means I've made people think and/or scared some people who don't want people to read and think. I wonder who might benefit from people not seeing and thus not thinking about the things in my post?
Rom Emmanuel, is that you with the "Flamebait" and "Offtopic" mods from different Slashdot shell accounts?
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Tell this to the conservative libertarians: Just like a city with no police, capitalism without existence and enforcement of rules to keep things competitive is unstable. Soon it would no longer be capitalism, but monopolism.
And don't say "regulated", say "policed". The word "regulation" has connotations of strangling, inefficient bureaucracy. The trucking industry in the US was a prime example of this. Used to be the US government ran this weird system in which the destinations and even the routes trucks were allowed to take were tightly controlled. Lead to stupid stuff like trucks being routinely sent on much longer trips than necessary. For instance, a company might own the route from D.C. to Pittsburgh, and Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, but not D.C. to Philadelphia. Any time they wanted to transport goods between D.C. and Philly, they would have to go 4 times as far as needed, so they could pass through Pittsburgh. Another problem was the acquisition of routes with intent only to block a competitor. Rather like a telecoms company trying to sue small cities that want to set up their own Internet service, for "unfairly" competing with it when the company itself is refusing to serve the community because it isn't profitable enough. It was a thoroughly artificial system. There was no sensible reason trucks couldn't take the direct route-- nothing like the roads being inadequate for truck traffic, or reserved for other uses. Thems was just the rules. Those sorts of restrictions should have a familiar flavor: the flavor of DRM.
Just what and how to police the market is the question. Should Microsoft be split, as the courts ordered? Some have used examples like the above trucking regulation mess as reason to push for the elimination of all policing of the markets. These are usually interests who think they'll win the monopoly game if allowed to try, or haven't thought of the consequences if they get what they think they want. They should read up on the history of capitalism in 19th century US. T. Roosevelt was one of our greatest presidents thanks to his anti-trust efforts. Railroads already had natural monopolies, and used this ruthlessly to gain ever more power and control. Sometimes though, it didn't work because the shark met a bigger shark, and some found themselves at the mercy of, say, an oil company attempting to monopolize its field. Standard Oil forced some railroads to give them kickbacks, and more. Ultimately, such railroads lost their independence, becoming puppets of the oil company, which found it all the easier to extend their power and control because the railroads had done a lot of the same work, for themselves. Or sometimes they'd see that cooperation and collusion was better than trying to break each other. Another area they found collusion useful was in "negotiating" with workers. One of the sickest things is the screaming of the opposition whenever the government proposes to raise our very low minimum wage. The companies only see that they are saving money if they all collude to lower wages as much as possible. They may see that they wreck the middle class if they get away with that, but they can't restrain themselves. They feel their survival depends on doing what others get away with, no matter how damaging to society. They actually like policing for that reason. They're just fine with rules that prevent destructive competition.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
What I think is unappreciated or underappreciated about abominations like Mussolini is that nothing they did was a chance, coincident, or accident. They understood very well what they were working for and where it was leading and accomplished it by a series of carefully planned maneuvers, each one of which had its own excuse, its own official story. Usually that story says that this is necessary, good for the country, designed to safeguard the people, intended to stop a national enemy, or that lack of patriotism is the only reason to oppose it. Above all, there is a distinctive pattern to it and once recognized, it is easy to spot, even in its early stages.
Hmmmm, sounds an awful lot like our last president doesn't it? Anyone who thinks that what transpired on Bush's watch was entirely coincidental is an arse.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
I wouldn't put money on life staying too good to do anything about it the short term.
Why don't make it an excel (or other spreadsheet format) file, easily downloadable and distributable by anyone?
This way no stupid legislation or lobbying can block it.
Also... not everything has to be running on a server... are we getting a little shortsighted because of the web revolution?
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
I appreciate this explanation. Sometimes opposites are exactly equal. Thus, I suppose the only thing I would add is that whether the corporation takes over the government, or whether the government takes over the corporation, either way their interests become one and the same. I consider the end result of both scenarios to be indistinguishable (as you said about the general public being screwed either way).
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Provide the good services to customers, automatically may price can not effect it's user friendly features. Like iworktickets is simple to configure, simple to use application for smart phones. It replaces paper forms used by people in the field to collect data and record work done. www.iworktickets.com
Yarrrrr,didn't know I could.
They got real pirates here in the my 'United' States of A'Merica? Don't know what Prez'O'Bama would think of all that.
And how bout the possibilities here in taxachusetts with Curt Schilling? *shivers*
And yes, part of red sox mania, how can I not be when it effects my daily commute.
the last time the US tried to invade canada they ran away with their tails between their legs (1817?)
check out the "work less party" in Vancouver,, they are the real anarchists...it is a beautiful thing...remembering that anarchy does not mean violence