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The Case For Mandatory Touch-Typing In High School

Hugh Pickens writes "With the perspective of forty-plus years since my graduation, I would say the single most useful course I took in high school was a business class in touch-typing that gave me a head start for writing and with computers that I have benefited from my entire life. So it was with particular interest that I read Gordon Rayner's essay in the Telegraph proposing that schools add a mandatory course in touch typing to the cornerstones of education: reading, writing and arithmetic. 'Regardless of the career a child takes up when they leave school, a high percentage of them will use a keyboard in their daily work, and all of them are likely to use a keyboard in their leisure time,' writes Rayner. 'Touch-typing would help every child throughout their lives — so why are our schools so blind to this?'"

84 of 705 comments (clear)

  1. That's not really the issue here. by Useful+Wheat · · Score: 4, Funny

    Say goodbye evolution/creation debate. Say hello keyboard layout wars.

    I won't have you teaching my children DVORAK, you left wing hippie! If QWERTY was good enough for our founding fathers, its good enough for us!

    1. Re:That's not really the issue here. by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not even the issue.

      Children will be typing before they can even understand what evolution is or who Jesus is.

      High School? Are they kidding? That's like trying to have mandatory sex education classes for 35 year old people. Maybe useful on /. but hardly far too late for the rest of the world.

      Typing is merely an interface to some sort of computerized system. Children learn surprisingly quickly. The other day I saw a 4 year old girl log into a Vista machine, start Firefox, and then *TYPE* the address for some website so she could play a game.

      Holy shit. Maybe she was exceptional, I don't know since I am not around kids that often. But, if 4 year old girls are doing it right now, then kids should already be typing experts by high school.

    2. Re:That's not really the issue here. by xaxa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With Dvorak, that becomes "'A;,OQ", and what the hell is that supposed to mean?

      9:13:38 ~ > grep -i '^[aoeuidhtns]*$' /usr/share/dict/words | wc -l
      1991
      9:13:45 ~ > grep -i '^[asdfghjkl;]*$' /usr/share/dict/words | wc -l
      154

      I know which I prefer.

    3. Re:That's not really the issue here. by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      We count "types per minute", no words. I.e. letters punched. I have no idea how it translates to wpm, probably 1:4 or something.

      Or 1:30 if you're German.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. IT Industry by Rophuine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm a software engineer, and I get to work daily with some people who never learned to touch-type. It would be a nice bonus to productivity if everyone around me could; not ground-breaking, but nice. I think, by and large, by the time people hit the workforce, their typing habits are pretty unlikely to change without some major effort. Is even high school too late? Most kids are regularly using computers right through primary school. I think learning to type is a responsibility shared by parents and primary schools these days.

    1. Re:IT Industry by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a software engineer who can't touch type. And I can honestly say that learning wouldn't increase my productivity in any measurable way. I don't spend a majority of my day typing. For every minute spent typing I spend at least 15 thinking, debugging, etc. Even giving it a 25% increase (which is more than it's likely to be) would be negligible.

      On top of that touch typing just isn't comfortable for many people. I tried learning back in school. Hurt my wrists horribly to try to type like that. I'm pretty sure that touch typing position is the reason so many people get carpal tunnel. What is useful is learning the layout of the keyboard so you don't have to hunt and peck, but actually touch typing and returning to home row after every keypress is horribly overrated.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:IT Industry by Mr+Z · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find people who type faster are more likely to document their work because it takes less time to do so. After all, you've spent all that time thinking, what is it to write a half page summary of what that new module does and why it does it, and why it does it the way it does it? If you're hunting and pecking, it could take you longer to write the summary than it did to think of the code. If you can touch type (or at the very least type faster than 40-50WPM by whatever means), then it's no real burden. After all, if you're spending that much time thinking about your work, then you've already worked out pretty much everything you need to say.

      I type 80-90WPM from copy myself, thanks to having taking a touch typing course. Granted, I don't follow 100% proper classroom technique, but I do pretty well. Before that, I was a four-finger typer that did pretty good. I managed 35WPM from copy on my first typing test when I started my touch typing course. That was hard won from typing BASIC programs on my TI home computer as well as any other 80s machine I could get time on.

      I enjoy the freedom that touch typing gives me. In the same amount of time I can write much clearer and more complete documentation, clearer, more complete emails, and generally get communication done with and out of the way much more fluidly. I can type almost as fast as I can think. When I was pecking away at 35WPM, I was thinking way faster than I wrote, and so I wrote only the minimum, and ended up with cryptic crud.

      *shrug*

    3. Re:IT Industry by PitaBred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Touch typing is just being able to type without looking at the keyboard. If you don't use the "standard" techniques, that's fine. But being able to put thoughts down with the keyboard quickly is essential when writing. Rather than focusing on HOW you're writing, you're able to focus on WHAT you're writing. I'm all for having children just have a minimum "40wpm" limit or something like that.

    4. Re:IT Industry by MrMr · · Score: 2, Funny

      You hire people for your mom's basement?

    5. Re:IT Industry by BeanThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a software engineer who can't touch type. And I can honestly say that learning wouldn't increase my productivity in any measurable way.

      Logically the only way this can be true is if you think slower than you type, in which case, sorry, you may not be the best software engineer out there. I easily type 120wpm and it is still far too slow for me, whether it's coding or writing English (documents, slashdot posts, e-mails) I think much faster than I type, typing is *the* primary bottleneck in my work ... if I could type 500 wpm my productivity would go through the roof.

    6. Re:IT Industry by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I read through the comments here, this seems to be a common theme. For those who don't touch type, they can't conceive how learning to do so would make them more productive. For those that do touch type, they can't imagine NOT knowing how to.

      Even giving it a 25% increase (which is more than it's likely to be) would be negligible.
      Tell ya what, let's call it a 10% increase. I'll go home every Friday at noon while you stay until 5:00. ;)

    7. Re:IT Industry by 4D6963 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He said software engineer, not code monkey. I can spend two hours tweaking 20 lines of code cause that's where all the logic takes place. If thinking up your code is anywhere near as fast as typing it, you must be a code monkey. As for the rest, my leet vim skills matter a lot more than my two-finger 80 wpm typing.

      For a software engineer typing speed matters about as much as car/bicycle aerodynamics for a mailman.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    8. Re:IT Industry by nitroamos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Logically the only way this can be true is if you think slower than you type, in which case, sorry, you may not be the best software engineer out there.

      It looks like you didn't take the time to think through your logic before you jumped to this conclusion!

  3. Re:Schools dont change by incognito84 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Touch-typing is a drop in the bucket.

    First, we'd have to begin to get rid of the lecture method with all it's crotchety old proponents who over-emphasize the main learning stream while under-emphasizing the alternatives.

    Then we'd have to rebuild education metholodogy to suit the 21st century. I'd say we're a few generations behind.

  4. If you need it, you'll know it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had mandatory touch-typing in middle school (6th-8th grades) and it was worthless. I didn't learn a thing - I typed slowly and uncomfortably.

    Then one day, I decided I wanted to learn to program computers. I taught myself C, and halfway through the project discovered that I had become a pretty good touch typist. Typing is a skill like riding a bike - you'll learn it by doing it. Forcing it on kids (who would rather be taking another, more meaningful course but can't because their schedule is full of crap) is only going to make them resent it.

    Just because something is valuable doesn't mean public education has to teach it. As I student, I can say that the room in our schedules is finite, and if it's both useful and easy (like typing) we'll get it on our own, we don't need it taking up scarce time slots.

    1. Re:If you need it, you'll know it by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've been working with computers over ten years now, and playing with them since elementary school. I'm a programmer by trade, and I don't touch type.

      Sure, I don't at the keyboard, but my typing technique could be way better. I'm using two-three fingers per hand, plus thumbs.

      I've been trying to use the exellent Klavaro ( http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/ ) to improve my skill, there has been some progress but nothing huge. I can't be bothered quite enough.

      I for one would have been grateful to have been force-fed the basics all those years back. I'm not saying it's the only option, I type fairly fast, but it's hard to unlearn all that muscle memory and use all fingers even if I'd want to.

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    2. Re:If you need it, you'll know it by surferx0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I had mandatory touch-typing in middle school (6th-8th grades) and it was worthless. I didn't learn a thing - I typed slowly and uncomfortably.

      Then one day, I decided I wanted to learn to program computers. I taught myself C, and halfway through the project discovered that I had become a pretty good touch typist. Typing is a skill like riding a bike - you'll learn it by doing it. Forcing it on kids (who would rather be taking another, more meaningful course but can't because their schedule is full of crap) is only going to make them resent it.

      Just because you didn't bother to utilize the skills you learned in middle school, doesn't mean you didn't learn it. Programming C doesn't magically enable everyone to touch type, you brain fell back on your middle school training without realizing and sharpened those skills when you finally started having to type in larger volumes and needed to do so with moderate efficiency.

    3. Re:If you need it, you'll know it by BeanThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can honestly say that teaching myself to touch-type early on (17 odd years ago) was the single-best, most valuable investment I ever made in my programmer career. It's been critical to my productivity and thus success (on a bad day I type over 100 wpm). I'm all for more of this in schools; apart from being a genuinely valuable skill, it would also reduce 'ppl lazly tpng lk this lol', and encourage more kids to write properly in general - and being able to write properly has strong links to being able to think properly.

    4. Re:If you need it, you'll know it by Narpak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I use all my fingers when I write on a keyboard. Back in school (we had a few classes were we practised touch) when I was forced to position my fingers according to the "correct method" I wrote slower and caught myself looking down on the keyboard now and again. Touch might be a fine technique for some, helping them improve their form and using all their fingers. But some, particularly those that use computers extensively for one reason (hobby) or another, can learn to type fast on their own and without "sticking to" a "correct method". Knowing what I know about the educational system I would say that informing students about the benefits off practising using all their fingers is good, but forcing them to use an approved method can have negative consequences. I distinctly recall our teacher arrogantly informing us that touch was the "only way" to truly write fast and that those of us that had used computers a lot before were basically handicapped. Despite this we, myself and two others in that particular group, beat him, the other students, and the recommended average words per minute score; when we wrote as we normally did.

      My point is that one should be careful what is made mandatory and how; the system doesn't allow for much flexibility.

    5. Re:If you need it, you'll know it by martyros · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I certainly benefited a lot from having it required in my school -- two consecutive years, in fact. I was always a bit mystified that my computer-geek friends, who planned on writing programs for a living, just slacked off in class and didn't even bother (and now program with just two fingers on each hand). Maybe the teacher didn't motivate students well enough, who knows. Maybe it was because the school still had mechanical typewriters. :-)

      There are some things that kids don't like when they're young, but if they're pushed to do it (within reason), they appreciate it later. I've never heard someone say, "I wish my parents hadn't pushed me to stick with piano lessons when I was younger". I hear lots of people, seeing their friends who now can just sit down and play something enjoyable, say, "I wish my parents had pushed me to stick with piano lessons when I was younger." I'm sure there are examples of parents who pushed kids who now resent it, but that doesn't change the fact that a little pushing, within reason and with love, can be good in the long run.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

  5. That would be a disaster! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Think about how much it would hurt their texting speed to have to work on a layout as large as a full-sized keyboard.

  6. I don't type very fast. by Supurcell · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't type very fast, but I also don't really have anything too interesting to say.

  7. Touch typing is irrelevant by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Typing speed is what matters. I've never taken a single touch typing class, and with the exception of knowing what the two notches on the F and J keys are there for, I have little idea of what finger is for what key. The result? I type at 90+ words per minute and have extremely high accuracy.

    Touch typing classes were MUCH more relevant in the days when correction tape was used and it meant that important papers would have to be completely retyped when there was a mistake. Alternately, it was important when correction tape or white out was actually a major office expense. Both of these issues are entirely irrelevant today.

    If you want to push for something, how about hand writing classes since there are massive numbers of people that after leaving high school use a pen or pencil for little more than writing their names or doodling a picture on their notepad during a meeting. Penmanship is at an all-time low. Boys who were classically bad writers to begin with are probably unlikely to be able to read their own writing anymore. Girls are the new boys, their handwriting is deplorable as well now.

    An even better idea, how about mandatory short-hand classes so that when people do not have computers available to them (for example in meetings) will be able to write in some for or another that allows them to take accurate notes and still read it afterwards when they're back in front of their computers. It's been around since the days of Caesar, believed to have been invented by Cicero's manservant Marcus Tullius Tiro and yet, while being a most efficient form of writing is still barely used outside of court rooms.

    People who need to learn to type will learn on their own. On top of that, it's rare that you encounter a high school student these days that can't manage at least 30 words per minute. Their greatest flaw is no longer in typing speed, but the fact that even with a spell checker, they can't spell for shit. Let's not forget that spell checkers don't cover things like They're Their and There.

    1. Re:Touch typing is irrelevant by Technician · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the 1970's I took a typing class before the PC was invented and on the market. Computers were on the way, but just a novelty in the hobby market. The class was filled with typewriters with all blank keys. You touch type or else. This was great as it started me typing without looking at the keys. I very quickly learned to find the keys with the notches. Correction tape was a pain.

      The biggest problem now is not QWERTY vs Dorvak, it's the layout of the rest of the keys. This is highly non-standard. Using multiple keyboards as I move about home and factory, the delete and escapse keys are located everywhere from top left to the key cluster between the numeric pad to in the numeric pad to stuffed down by the Windows key on either side. In short, they could be anywhere except in the middle of the regular typing keys.

      My favorite keyboard overall is the old IBM klacky keyboard without the Windows key. It's one of the few keyboards that doesn't have a sticky spacebar. Way too many keyboards have a wide space bar that won't press down unless you hit it directly in the middle. Having to go back and insert missing spaces cuts typing speed.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    2. Re:Touch typing is irrelevant by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You'd be surprised. Touch-typing doesn't just teach "how to type fast and accurately", it also teaches "how to type with minimum strain on your hands/wrists".

      If this hasn't affected you, you're lucky. If this has, you know exactly what I mean.

    3. Re:Touch typing is irrelevant by BeanThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The result? I type at 90+ words per minute and have extremely high accuracy.

      So? I did learn to touch-type properly, and easily type at 120 wpm with high accuracy ... much faster than 90, every hour of every day, imagine how much that extra speed adds up - why diss touch-typing?

      Touch typing classes were MUCH more relevant in the days when correction tape was used and it meant that important papers would have to be completely retyped when there was a mistake.

      Actually, the main issue was that you could type blind (in fact it used to also be commonly called "blind typing", but maybe that isn't Politically Correct enough these days?) --- so secretaries could retype documents without taking their eyes off the source document.

      People who need to learn to type will learn on their own

      Ha ha, right ... tell that to half of the programmers at my workplace --- have you actually looked at a typical workplace, or are you still in school?

  8. Equal time by has2k1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    As chairman of the Hunt-And-Peck Association of Typists (HPAT), I demand equal representation in the class room.

  9. They don't do that already? by mepperpint · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I was in elementary school, we went to the computer lab a couple days a week and were forced to use the PAWS typing tutor software on the Apple IIe. Is it really that case that there are still schools that don't teach this? Also, based on my experience, I don't think we should wait until high school to teach people to type. Elementary school seems like the right place, as children are learning to read and write, why not learn to type too?

  10. DVORAK? by pipatron · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So now is the chance to get people to start using DVORAK or maybe something even better (maybe there's been more research on this the last decades). Personally I still use QWERTY but that's just because of 20+ years of being used to it. Would be nice with a thought-through layout as standard.

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    1. Re:DVORAK? by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't see the need for DVORAK. Sure, you might be able to type faster in case you are writing plain English. But that's not very useful to me, because I'm either programming (which isn't plain english) or typing Dutch or English. Adopting DVORAK doesn't benefit my any more or less than QWERTY. (Well, maybe less because certain keys I often use in programming are now on harder to reach locations).

      Anyway... DVORAK seems to focus on people writing more text. But instead people should write less text with a higher quality.

    2. Re:DVORAK? by xaxa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What programming language isn't mostly plain English (or some other language)? Most keywords are English words, as are most function and variable names. So are all the comments.

      I type much more English (comments, documentation, emails, IM chat, posting to Slashdot) than code.

      (I don't know how well Dvorak would work with Dutch, but it's very unlikely to be worse than Qwerty.)

  11. good idea but wrong age by belmolis · · Score: 5, Informative

    Teaching children touch-typing is an excellent idea, but high school is much too late. Even junior high school kids have reports to write, and still younger kids are using computers. Touch-typing should be taught in elementary school. As far as the curriculum is concerned, grade five or six would probably be alright, but it might need to be earlier to prevent kids from fossilizing bad two-finger habits.

    I went to an unusual school that taught touch-typing in grade six back in 1968. We didn't have personal computers then, but for me it was a godsend as I have awful handwriting. Judging from my experience in that school, sixth graders have no difficulty learning touch typing.

    1. Re:good idea but wrong age by Chakotay · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Agreed! I took a Scheidegger touchtyping course when I was around 10 years old, on one of ye olde electric typewriters, and it turns out that it is one of the most useful things I ever learned. Well, math and spelling are very useful too, of course, but touchtyping is a skill that has served me throughout my professional life.

      The problem is that in elementary school, most teachers don't know how to touch type, so how could they teach the children? The teachers should be taught first!

      --

      Never underestimate the power of stupidity
      To err is human, to moo bovine
    2. Re:good idea but wrong age by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unless you're 13 right now, this has absolutely no relevance. Computers have invaded our society at an amazing rate in the last 20 years. Typewriters were not very useful for elementary and middle school students, unlike computers. It doesn't surprise me a bit that you didn't use them... -When you were a kid.-

      Today is different, and that is what this discussion is about.

      We're not getting off your lawn.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  12. But NOT Qwety, and NOT on "normal" keyboards! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't want their hands to be crippled before they start their first job!

    I wouldn't accept anything less than this: http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm
    With a adapted proper layout like DVORAK, or for German keyboards NEO ( http://www.neo-layout.org/ Because compared to this, DVORAK looks like a bad joke of inside-the-box thinking ^^).

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  13. Re:Schools dont change by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I do not (repeat do NOT) use the "home keys"

    I can understand getting away with not using the ';', but this post itself contains all the home keys.

    You must be some kind of savant.

  14. I'm all for this, under one condition: by FSWKU · · Score: 3, Interesting
    That we teach kids how to write properly and put ideas into words FIRST. Being able to type will be of no use whatsoever if you don't know how to communicate. My brother's girlfriend teaches 6th grade, and a good portion of these kids are COMPLETELY unable to put together a coherent sentence. They're writing on at BEST a second grade level (the whole issue of kids not being held back when they need to be is another debate entirely), so a typing class will be of no benefit to them whatsoever. And that's just when you can actually decipher the chicken-scrawl that passes for handwriting these days.

    Bottom line is, they need to be learning things in some sort of a sequence so that they can build on what they already know. My opinion is they should go with it as follows:
    1. Reading/Handwriting (and no, I don't mean cursive): Be able to properly and clearly write the letters you will use for the rest of your life and learn it early. Yes, this is still important, because there are many times in daily life you will not have the option to simply punch buttons on a keyboard. If taught while one is still learning to read, the two disciplines will reinforce each other. Also, learning how to write before you can type builds fine motor control.
    2. Grammar & Comprehension: Once you have a solid grasp of how to read words and copy them in your own hand, you can begin the process of learning all the wonderfully annoying nuances of your native language (English being by FAR the most annoying). You don't have to master it overnight, but you want to get the basics down before you move any further. This will ensure that you know how to properly communicate on a functional level, and also that you are able to learn the more complex tidbits more easily.
    3. Typing: Yes, I put typing last on the list. If you don't know how to properly communicate FIRST, then all having the ability to type will do is make you seem like an idiot that much faster. You will get nowhere in life if the extent of your communication skills resembles the output from a pre-alpha version of Babelfish. Once you have a successful grasp on reading/writing/comprehension, only then does typing become an important tool in enabling you to communicate your ideas much faster. Before then, all it will do is become a hinderance.

    I am well aware the article talks about teaching this at the high school level, but from what I've seen, it doesn't improve much. When I was in high school, there were juniors and seniors who could barely read, and their handwriting may as well have been from Omicron Persei 8 for how legible it was. We need to make sure kids have a handle on the basic skills BEFORE they get to high school. If we can manage that, I'm pretty sure most will pick up typing quite well on their own.

    --
    "So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
    1. Re:I'm all for this, under one condition: by PitaBred · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only way you'll learn how to put a coherent sentence together is by reading lots of them and recognizing them for what they are. Your brother's girlfriend is dealing with kids who have probably not read much of anything that they didn't absolutely have to, and their parents don't give a shit. My cousin teaches 6th graders, and I've gone in a few times to do a "Career Day" presentation. It's sad when you can see how bright the kids are, but they're trying so hard to be cool and popular and all the things that they think are important that they're missing out on the things that actually are important. I like to think that when I talk about salaries and tell them how much I had to read and write that they get a bit of a hint on how those things are connected.

  15. Re:Schools dont change by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I was about to write this. It wasn't in the curriculum 30 years ago, so it is not needed. Oh, sure, we caught up and teach now the Vietnam war in history (not instead of other junk but on top of it), but new courses? Get real. We're glad if we don't drop courses because the budget gets cut away again and again.

    Besides, how much typing skill do those dropouts need to carry a gun around?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. Re:Schools dont change by cp.tar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Touch-typing is a drop in the bucket. First, we'd have to begin to get rid of the lecture method with all it's crotchety old proponents who over-emphasize the main learning stream while under-emphasizing the alternatives. Then we'd have to rebuild education metholodogy to suit the 21st century. I'd say we're a few generations behind.

    Agreed.
    When you take a better look at it, our education system has just been adding more of the same. My grandmother took four years of obligatory education (this was in Yugoslavia, now Croatia; YGMMMV). My parents and I took eight years of primary school. The current government, may it burn in seven hells, wants to make the first twelve years of education obligatory.
    The worst part is that the second four years of education are rather alike the first four, albeit with several new subjects, i.e. some old subjects diverging into several new ones. To top it all, the four years of current secondary education are just a rehash of the second four years of primary education.

    The system's efficiency is dropping steadily and steeply; teachers are out of touch with current technologies, and those who train teachers are even worse. The school system has increasingly less connection to both the real world and to its basic purpose, i.e. teaching. Instead, schools' primary purpose is becoming something quite different: keep the children trapped in the system, and keep young people at children's level for as long as possible.

    Touch typing would be a giant step forward in any education system since a primary skill would be taught. However, I abhor the idea of such a skill being graded, as it usually happens with anything taught in schools.

    BTW curious tidbit just crossed my mind: instead of teaching touch typing, Croatian schools recently reintroduced calligraphy. Instead of learning normal cursive script (joined-up writing), first-graders are taught old-style calligraphy. The fact that practically no-one uses a pen these days seems to have escaped the 19th century educators.
    Bloody morons.

    --
    Ignore this signature. By order.
  17. Re:Schools dont change by Hadlock · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most people learn to touch type by age 12. If you don't figure it out by age 18 then it's pretty likely you won't ever need that skill. Driving lessons aren't mandatory, but people who need it learn how to drive anyways. I'm sorry, but this is probably one of the dumbest slashdot articles I've ever seen.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
  18. Re:Schools dont change by causality · · Score: 2

    I do not (repeat do NOT) use the "home keys"

    I can understand getting away with not using the ';', but this post itself contains all the home keys.

    You must be some kind of savant.

    Maybe he's holding down ALT while using the numeric keypad to input ASCII/ANSI codes?

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  19. stunned by Locutus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm stunned that it isn't required already. I took typing and even did it with a broken finger taped to a popsicle stick but it was one of the best courses I took. It is agonizing to watch someone poking their fingers on a keyboard with their hands moving all over the place and their eyes looking down and up and down and up. So much wasted effort and time and at the same time, businesses let people get away with this too. I've seen developers who can't touch-type and that is pathetic when such a skill means so much to getting the job done. Would you hire a mechanic who used a wrench for a hammer and screwdriver as a chisel? But, it's allowed, it's accepted, and as we have been made aware in this thread, touch-typing is an after thought in our school system so it's unlikely to change.

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  20. Reflection of Ueslessness of Pre-university school by colganc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This says alot more about how useless most of school is. Typing is important, but what are children doing for 99.99% of the time that learning touch typing can be considered such an important cornerstone.

  21. Re:Mandatory? Really? by raju1kabir · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ya, and homerow bullshit is the cause of much of the hand crippling RSI that people experience. It's sad that something so obvious as "that's not natural" has to be argued for.

    I've been typing most of the day for 35 years and my hands are fine. All I needed to know was "watch your posture and keep your wrists straight," which my mother told me in about 15 seconds. Not worth a slot that could be used for an actual class on something important.

    --
    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
  22. Re:Schools dont change by advocate_one · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Besides, how much typing skill do those dropouts need to carry a gun around?

    the last thing you want in the front line is to be on the receiving end of a "typo" when someone has keyed the wrong coordinates in for an artillery mission or airstrike...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  23. 1992 by Max+Threshold · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I took a touch-typing class in high school in 1992. It was utterly pointless. Touch-typing is learned naturally and quickly by people who use computers regularly, and useless to everyone else. High schools need to focus on the essentials - reading, math, history, logic - and leave specialized skills to the trade schools.

  24. Meanwhile, Back in Reality... by LKM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a software engineer who can't touch type. And I can honestly say that learning wouldn't increase my productivity in any measurable way.

    I'm a software engineer who can touch type. And I can honestly say that not knowing how to touch type would decrease my productivity in a measurable way.

    That's anecdotal evidence, by the way.

    Let's look at the larger picture here. You're correct that the "typing" part only makes up part of what a software engineer does. I'd say about 25-50% of my time is spent typing (not only code, also documentation, e-mails, blog posts on the internal company blog, wiki updates, etc.). Wikipedia says:

    An average professional typist reaches 50 to 70 wpm, while some positions can require 80 to 95 (usually the minimum required for dispatch positions and other time-sensitive typing jobs), and some advanced typists work at speeds above 120.
    Two-finger typists, sometimes also referred to as "hunt and peck" typists, commonly reach sustained speeds of about 37 wpm for memorized text, and 27 wpm when copying text but in bursts may be able to reach up to 60 to 70 wpm.

    So let's say it's 60 wpm for touch typing (I know I'm quite a bit faster than that, but we want to go with averages) and 37 wpm for two-finger typing.

    So, considering all this data: We probably spend about a third of our work time typing, and touch typing is on average roughly 1.6 times as fast as two-finger typing. For an 8-hour work day, that results in 2.7 hours of typing, of which roughly one hour is "wasted" for two-finger typers.

    I'd say one hour each day is a measurable increase (or decrease) in productivity.

    On top of that touch typing just isn't comfortable for many people.

    Then many people learned it wrongly.

    Hurt my wrists horribly to try to type like that.

    Then your position is incorrect. You really should have learned how to touch type properly :-)

  25. Re:Education vs Vocation by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah. They should also get rid of that useless physical education thing, it's useless as it's not really education. Of course, they should keep the small part that is theoretical stuff, perhaps roll it into the biology classes.

    --
    - These characters were randomly selected.
  26. Proper Touch Typing by LKM · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Proper touch typing is important; improper touch typing (wrong hand position, using the wrong shift key for capitals, etc) can cause physical harm to your hands and wrists. Thus I would say that it is important for children to learn how to touch type properly, even if they only get to really use it at a later date.

  27. typing class in jr high in late 1970s by Eric+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful
    In the late 1970s I took a typing class in junior high school. Boys were actually discouraged from taking typing, so there were only a few other boys in the class. Despite the speed and accuracy requirements to pass the class being quite low, I barely passed, and the teacher advised me that I should never take a job requiring typing skills.

    I've been employed as a programmer almost continuously since that time; I did contract programming work while I was in high school. Learning to touch type made me much more productive than I'd been before the class. Over the years my typing speed has dramatically improved; the last time I checked it was over 100 wpm, though my accuracy hasn't improved nearly as much.

    I think any student that doesn't take a typing class in junior high or high school is doing himself or herself quite a disservice. It's a valuable skill even for someone that doesn't need it for a job. I suspect that it's probably easier to learn typing the earlier you do it.

    1. Re:typing class in jr high in late 1970s by value_added · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the late 1970s I took a typing class in junior high school. Boys were actually discouraged from taking typing, so there were only a few other boys in the class. Despite the speed and accuracy requirements to pass the class being quite low, I barely passed, and the teacher advised me that I should never take a job requiring typing skills.

      I learned about the same time, but my experience was a bit different. I opted to take a typing class that was advertised as "business somethingorother" to prepare girls for future careers as secretaries. My reasons for taking the class were twofold. First, that's where the girls were, so what better place to meet one? Second, certain classes required that term papers be typed and not hand-written. I wasn't about to sit at home and do the hunt and peck routine so typing class it was.

      I met lots of girls, of course. The problem was I typed faster than most of them, so they resented me. The more "interesting" girls were hanging around outside smoking cigarettes, anyway. ;-)

      When computers came along, I felt right at home. My typing, same as you, has gotten better over the years. Funny how far learning proper technique can take you.

      Best class I ever took? Absolutely. And seeing how poorly people type on keyboards today, and listening to all the "ergonomic" complaints and excuses, I'd suggest that all kids be forced to take a typing class (and preferrably on a manual typewriter where they can discover the value of technique). Whether they grow up to work as secretaries or programmers, doesn't matter. Most all jobs (auto mechanics included) involve using a keyboard for part of the work day. And for non-working hours, how can anyone find or get porn effectively without being able to type?

    2. Re:typing class in jr high in late 1970s by rossz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I took typing in my freshman year of high school. I was planning ahead and figured it would be a useful skill in college. The class was taught on old manual typewriters. To this day I am very rough on computer keyboards because of the pressure I had to use on those old keyboards.

      It was the single most useful class of my entire four years of high school.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
  28. Re:Schools dont change by Fred_A · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Touch-typing is a drop in the bucket.

    Agreed. Since most people can't write, there's no point in having them touch type.

    --

    May contain traces of nut.
    Made from the freshest electrons.
  29. Re:Schools dont change by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wasn't in the curriculum 30 years ago?

    Nonsense. Was too.

    It was an optional class in my high school, and it was full of girls, so I took it so I could sit next to HER.

    The touch typing is still with me to this day, but I haven't thought about HER for 29 years, until just now.

    It was the single most valuable class I took in High School.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  30. touch-typing = tyranny by Anenome · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I started out as kids do, performing simple hunt'n'peck maneuvers. By the time I hit high-school it was well ingrained. At age 19, I wrote a novel of over 1,000,000 characters over a 1.5 year period, averaging four hours a day of just typing. That burned the keyboard layout into me (I would -never- go DVORAK).

    Even now, I don't even have to look at the keyboard to type near perfectly, long as my wrists remain still on the rest I don't lose my place. I can even type just as perfectly with my eyes closed or in a dark room by centering on the F and J keys to start. My style is now a mastered form of hunt'n'peck, hunt'n'peck taken to the Nth degree, massively improved through perfect memorization of the keyboard layout and ingrained muscle-memory, such that I can type now about 80 words per minute. It's simply 'think and the words are typed' at this point, as natural as speaking or writing with a pen.

    There came a time once that I thought I should improve my typing speed by learning to do real touch-typing the way professional typists must learn. So, I picked up a 'teach me typing' program, and diligently went through the courses for quite some time. I think it was 'Mario Teaches Typing' :P It had which finger you were supposed to use and all that jazz, and I did what it asked to the letter. Used the proper fingers, and arranged my hands as asked.

    Only one hitch: my hands began to hurt, a lot. I noticed there was a large amount of unnatural stretching and contortion compared to my mastered hunt'n'peck method in order to reach the key with the 'proper finger', the one the program demanded I use. Now, I didn't simply give up, I wanted to master this technique, I was committed. But, after a month of daily practice I couldn't take it anymore. I was nearly as fast while touch-typing, but my hands were killing me.

    I realized then why typists get carpel-tunnel syndrome and the like. Dogmatic touch-typing it terrible for your hands! You need to be able to relax your hands as your type, not stretch and contort them unnaturally. I went back to my freestyle typing and never looked back.

    My typing can realistically be called freestyle because, based on what combination of letters and words I'm typing, it could be any number of fingers that are available at the moment to type that key. The difference is, I know I have to hit that key, and it happens quite naturally. I don't use my pinkies to type at all (well, maybe to hit shift), but I use everything else. That's probably the difference between my speed and a professional typist, since 80 WPM isn't really something to sneeze at but a pro typist can hit 50% faster.

    But, now I'm attempting to turn myself into a professional author, and typing has become my primary skill, my devotion, my life. I'm glad I never took the touch-typing route! I'm quite certain that I will never develop carpel tunnel or repetitive strain injuries because my hands are relaxed, my fingers don't contort, and typing is done in perfectly natural motion. No overextended fingers, no awkward combinations. No pain.

    That's my experience. That's the wisdom I've gained.

    --
    "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"
    1. Re:touch-typing = tyranny by ckhorne · · Score: 2

      It's worthwhile to note that carpel-tunnel syndrome (CTS) predominately shows up in women. It used to be commonly held that CTS was a result of endless typing or other repetitive wrist motion, but studies in the past couple years have shown that women simply have a higher disposition to get CTS than men, and there were/are more women in pure typing roles (secretary, etc).

      References:

      http://www.rsi-relief.com/2008/05/carpal-tunnel-syndrome-and-women/

      http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS102819+08-Apr-2009+BW20090408

  31. Re:Schools dont change by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The system's efficiency is dropping steadily and steeply; teachers are out of touch with current technologies"

    Has calculus changed in the last 150 years?
    Has English changed (aside from a handful of grammar constructs, a few words, etc.) in the last 50?
    Does addition work differently that it did in the 15 century?

    Adding new teaching methods is a good idea if they work and help learning. i.e. putting full color 3-D graphs of certain functions in calc. books.
    But adding new technology is bad if it isn't used correctly. i.e. putting "smartboards", projectors, etc. in every classroom. No teacher knows how to use them, they are all required to use them, and student learning completely stops. Sitting in class for 20 minutes because the teacher can't get the computer to talk to the projector HARMS learning.

    Unfortunately, every time anyone tries to put "technology" into public schools, it fails miserably. Students are much better off taking notes from a lecture written on a chalkboard than watching a presentation bluescreen for the third time this week.

    People are very quick to say "TEACHERS ARE OUT OF DATE!", but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The material being taught hasn't changed because IT STILL WORKS LIKE IT DID BACK THEN!

    The other argument is that classes are "less relevant" to today's students. This is really just another way of saying "students are lazy and without spinning animations on screen every 5 seconds they start to daydream". Calculus is just as relevant to students now as it was to students 50 years ago (depending on choice of profession, this may be a lot or a little). But putting the fundamental theorem on calculus or on "these new-fangled interwebs" doesn't result in better learning over seeing it on a chalkboard.

    --
    -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  32. I'm the lazy one.. by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I learned 2 different touch typing systems so far (QWERTY and Dvorak). Why?, because I'm unbelievably lazy. QWERTY was the obvious first choice, Dvorak was the improvement on it as I had to put in even less effort for typing after I learned it.

    Oh, and by the way, no school thought me this back then. I so dream of the day when schools start to do comprehensive education for life, but I guess that won't ever happen.

    Anyway, I'll never understand people, who sit in front of a screen 8 hours a day and use the 2 finger search system for typing. Seems so infinitely more work intensive. But non adaptive people still love to it.

  33. Re:Schools dont change by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But adding new technology is bad if it isn't used correctly. i.e. putting "smartboards", projectors, etc. in every classroom. No teacher knows how to use them, they are all required to use them, and student learning completely stops. Sitting in class for 20 minutes because the teacher can't get the computer to talk to the projector HARMS learning.

    My sister was one of the first teachers around here to get those. She actually knows how to use it, and uses it to great effect.

    Of course, I was the one who helped set it up, and figure out how it all works. Now that she knows, she teaches all the other teachers as best as she can.

    She's a bright one, though. Most of the other teachers don't grasp things like this as quickly as she does. (thats what happens when both your parents are engineering-type people)

    The sad bit, though?

    The whole school has a single tech to support them. And they have to submit requests in through the county, to get the help.

    The teachers ask me for help via my sister, since it takes almost a month for it to go through the proper channels.

    It's not the teachers or the technology that is at fault. It's the administrative systems that are attached to them.

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  34. Re:Schools dont change by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

    It was the single most valuable class I took in High School.

    ...for one handed typing?

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  35. I agree 100% by bovinewasteproduct · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've kept trying to tell my own kids that out of all the classes I took in HS, typing has helped me the most.
    Sure math and english were important, don't get me wrong, but the typing helped the most.

    BWP

  36. Re:Schools dont change by fractoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Agreed. Since most people can't write, there's no point in having them touch type.

    How on earth does this follow? In my daily life I type an incredible amount; emails, online chat, code, slashdot and other forum posts... in comparison I probably write no more than 50 words a week on paper using a pen. I know that if I had to choose one of the two skills to retain while I permanently forgot the other ("You are attempting to learn the skill 'Threesome'. Both your skill slots are full. You must choose one of the following skills to forget: (1) Typing (2) Handwriting") then I'd far rather keep my current 90+ wpm touch typing than lose it in favour of being able to write shopping lists on post-it notes.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  37. Re:Schools dont change by RuBLed · · Score: 2, Funny

    I touch type so much that the only things I write these days are my signature and various doodles.. Oh wait.. make that various doodles only...

  38. Re:Schools dont change by fractoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most people I've seen who learned to touch type 'by themselves' are just fast hunt-and-peck typists who've memorised the key locations. Sure, they'll do OK at first, but they'll struggle to get above 40wpm. On the contrary, if you at least learn which finger goes on what key and then practise with that until you can touch type you can easily teach yourself 'the rest' and hit 80+ wpm with no problems. Touch typing with 9 fingers (My typing teacher told me she'd cut my left thumb off if she saw me using it :P ) is potentially at least 4.5x faster than doing so with two fingers due to maths and stuff.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  39. Top Row Retort by rabiddeity · · Score: 5, Funny

    >>I do not (repeat do NOT) use the "home keys"
    >I can understand getting away with not using the ';', but this post itself contains all the home keys.

    I tore out type ere I wrote, to type up top:
    upper typewriter row, pert repertoire.
    Reporter, I quote to you: To write, pop type out.
    Retire typewriter row two. Your tri-row?
    Rip it out, too. Tour your top row territory.
    Queer tip, you retort? I worry your poor typewriter?
    To torque it out -- typewriter terror?
    You require row two, your tri-row prop?
    You pout, try to quip. (Poor etiquette.) You titter.
    (Poorer propriety.) You utter uppity output?
    Quiet, you! Quit it! You purport to write.
    I tire to peer to your rot, your petty writ,
    to eye your wire report. You write pyrite,
    terrier to torpor. I pity you, preppie yuppie.
    I tutor you, tyro, to uproot your trite tree,
    put type to pyre. Rupture type. Write to write.
    I erupt. I riot. I prototype pure power
    to write. I, upper typewriter requiter.
    I outwit you, too. To perpetuity, I write poetry.
    You, to put it true, putter out rote poop.

    (with regards to Nick Montfort)

  40. Re:Schools dont change by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Touch-typing is a drop in the bucket.

    Agreed. Since most people can't write, there's no point in having them touch type.

    Judging by the replies to your post, most folks can't read so well either. To prevent more people from making fools of themselves, Fred A's post should probably be understood as "Since most people can't produce content that is worth writing about, teaching them touch typing will only increase the rate at which they can expel the offal that is their literary contributions."

    --
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
  41. Re:Another stupid obsolescent idea by BeanThere · · Score: 4, Informative

    OK, let me get this straight --- your reasoning is basically "I was taught some skills in school that are now obsolete, therefore touch-typing is obsolete"?

    Similarly with touch typing.

    Are you stark raving mad? Do you have any idea how many people have to use computers at work on a daily basis? Unlike tabulation machines, there's a keyboard on almost every desk in the world these days - yet you equate the two, and get modded up!? And most of the users type painfully badly ... imagine every single one of them could type better, faster, more efficiently. Yeah, totally obsolete and useless.

  42. Re:Watch Mad Men by characterZer0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Right. We do not need factory workers any more. The Chinese can do that. We need to train people for unemployment.

    --
    Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
  43. Re:Another stupid obsolescent idea by vlm · · Score: 4, Funny

    OK, let me get this straight --- your reasoning is basically "I was taught some skills in school that are now obsolete, therefore touch-typing is obsolete"?

    No, the purpose of a modern American school, at least in part, is to teach obsolete middle class skills as rich peoples hobbies, so a school teaching touch typing would be a strong indicator that most computer usage is or soon will be obsolete.

    The educational theory is for the middle class, based on worship of the upper class lifestyle, while confusing cause and effect. A quick summary of the theory would be that only rich people can afford to learn "useless" skills for fun, therefore if you learn useless skills, you'll become rich.

    Example of typical middle class education primary revolving around obsolete skills that are only useful for rich people's hobbies, thus if you have the time to waste to learn them, you must be rich, aspirational, etc:

    1) Music classes - Musician used to be a middle class lifestyle, before the recording cartel/industry/complex took it over. Now only rich people can afford to focus on music.

    2) Art classes - See all that "decorative americana junk" at the walmart, craft store, etc, made in China, to decorate our walls? Middle class people in the USA used to make "decorative artistic americana junk" and sell it to each other but now its all imported from China.

    3) Wood shop classes - Furniture carpenter used to be a middle class american job, before it went to China and/or Amish.

    4) The whole concept of the steam whistle coordinating the middle class worker at the factory assembly line. All that has gone to China except for their kids responding to bells/buzzers at school.

    5) Political Science / Government used to be something middle class folks needed to know, but now the TV tells them all they need to know about politics, or at least the last TV commercial they saw is the only thing that affects them. The only reason for middle class folks to learn about it is to participate (if you are in the oligarchy and have a last name like Kennedy or Bush or Clinton) or as an idle hobby in your spare time.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  44. Re:Watch Mad Men by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The world has changed in the last fifty years.The world has changed in the last fifty years."

    Dropped out of HS in 1975, I get about 35wpm with 2 fingers. Boys were not allowed to take typing or cooking classes. Girls were not allowed to take wood/metal-work or mechanical drawing classes.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  45. Re:Grammar of Speech & Writing by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to change their style of grammar from a classically respected form but tricky for modern people to understand when spoken, a decent respect for honest questions like yours posted on slashdot the land of the lost digital volcano of forgotten memes, a decent respect for the considerations of linguistic theory and etiquette impels us to declare the reasons for the modernization of grammar.
    .
    I trust you got the reference. That's great fun to read with your favorite beverage at home, but try that in an office and watch the phone ring.
    .
    Rudolf Flesch worked on the idea of slicing down corporate communication because finesse is despised rather than appreciated. I think he's the great-grandparent of Texting.
    .
    See how much fun short word counts are?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Flesch

    (My periods are poor-man's line breaks until I figure them out later.)

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  46. Re:Schools dont change by sensationull · · Score: 2

    The average teacher simply will not accept training from anyone who is not themselves a teacher and will often flat out refuse it if it threatens to take them any more of their time. I have to support these people and some are great but most are neanderthols when it comes to technology and refuse to learn about it as they do not consider it important at all.

    It is simply insane that they were expected to unpack and setup whiteboards and that no training was offered in that case but that may well be a symptom of having training refused or ignored in other schools. Technology is important even if it is just taught or allowed to a basic level in schools, one of the major things preventing this is the teachers. Their training does not include computer skills at most universities short of a single paper on word, because of this and the prevailing attitude at least among many of the older teachers they view it as unimportant and don't even try no matter how much support they have access to.

    Again there are really good teachers that do make use of the technology. Also technology is not a heavy weight subject like maths or english but surely the teacher should be teaching them in a way that integrates the tools that they will actually use to do the task. Not all the time or anything but at least once or twice to give them an experience of the real world rather than the standard 1950's time warp of a usual school (at least in this country and in others that I have heard about from an IT standpoint).

  47. Re:Schools dont change by twostix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The length of compulsory government education for children has steadily increased since it began as it was always the intention of the creators and maintainers of it to remove the task of raising children from parents to the child rearing "experts" (aka themselves). This in their own words was to ensure that children were moulded to requirements of industry and enlightened society without parents interfering and undoing all their hard work.

    That is not in anyway a secret to anyone who has a cursory knowledge of the history of Compulsory Education.

    Not to mention most of primary school now is purely social indoctrination and almost no hard academics is taught until fourth grade.

    If you believe students are learning more than they did 50 years you're living in an *absolute* fantasy land.
      The fourth grade curriculum had children reading and understanding Shakespeare and de-constructing poetry. Being able to do advanced multiplication and division in their heads was compulsory (my mums books from primary school look just like my high school books, my eight year old boys third grade books look like my kindergarten books).
    The school system educates children just fine by the way, you just have to understand what exactly it is that they are being taught.

    Understanding starts here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

  48. Re:Schools dont change by FlyingBishop · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I suspect two reasons, though a cursory Google search doens't turn up much justification:

    1) The frequency of the characters you type with the left hand is greater than that of the right, so it is a wear-balancing thing between the hands.
    I just ran the numbers with the Wikipedia page, and it comes out to the left side's frequency being 56.101%, while the right is 42.311%. (I did not count 'b', since b is dead in the middle, though I personally use my left hand, so that's even more reason to use the right thumb.)

    2) The right hand has a wider range of motion, with the pinky ready to hit enter or backspace, while the left pinky is practically on the edge of the keyboard. I suspect that being more stretched makes the right thumb more efficient at hitting the space bar.

  49. Both sides are wrong by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfortunately, every time anyone tries to put "technology" into public schools, it fails miserably. Students are much better off taking notes from a lecture written on a chalkboard

    If they're busy taking notes, they're not learning. They're just stenographers at that point.

    The first thing I did when I taught computers (grades 4 to 6) was tell the students that we weren't going to be using the computers. At first, they were disappointed - but I made the discussions (note - discussion, NOT lectures) interesting enough that they quickly forgot about the "boxes". Good teachers interact with their students. We say that ne of the biggest reasons for failure in business is lack of communications, but our teachers are, for the most part, TERRIBLE communicators; is it any wonder that when people enter the business world, they accept the same crappy "lefture-style" mode of organizing work that dooms them to failure?

    Better to fire half the teachers, and give the students to the other half. I never had a problem keeping 30-some-odd kids involved - teachers who cry about having more than 15 should be fired because they are clearly incompetent.

  50. Re:Schools dont change by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just to clarify. When they gave the teachers the 'smart boards' (in her case, basically a digital overhead projector that can also work as a 'classic' computer projector) nobody told anyone how to work them. They gave her the box, software CD, and thats it. Nothing was installed for them, the crap wasn't even unpackaged.

    Cry me a river. If a teacher can't figure out how to connect something like that themselves, they're probably a lousy teacher. Lack of curiosity shows in traits such as "I don't know how to do this, so someone has to show me." It's not rocket science. Then again, these people probably need the warning that comes with their blender "do not stick fingers in blades while running." - and they think "Why would I take a blender while jobbong?"

    Or they could just have asked their students to figure it out for them - at least a few of them haven't been contaminated with "learned helplessness."

    "Oh, but RTFM is too HARD for a teacher!"

    If you can't teach yourself, you have no business teaching anyone else.

  51. Re:Watch Mad Men by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Funny

    That reminds me of the plaque I saw on the desk of my tax preparers secretary. "Do you want to talk to the man in charge, or the woman who knows what's going on?".

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  52. Re:Watch Mad Men by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yeah, I kinda forgot about that. I graduated in 1974. I took typing as an elective, and I was one of only two boys in the class. We caught hell, because the jocks thought it was effeminate. Today, I guess all of those jocks search for their porn with the old tried and true hunt-and-peck method. That sure slows a guy down, I imagine. Learning to type was probably the best move I made in high school. In the Navy, I was able to sit in an office and fill out forms in a minute or two, that other people spent 10, 15, even 30 minutes doing by hand. That ability got me INTO the office, where I was able to sit on my butt while other people chipped paint, carried supplies, swabbed the decks, etc.

    Today, our local school system has "keyboarding" classes. The kids know how to do things with a keyboard that I never wanted to do. I still don't know what those 16 extra keys are supposed to do on my own keyboard - I'm perfectly happy with a standard 102 key! :^(

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  53. My MOM was this smart in 1963... by rbrander · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was in grade 10 in 1972, but my brothers, 7 and 9 years older, got the same treatment: forced to take "Typing 10" in a nearly all-girl classroom when the only point to it was as a first course towards a secretarial career. In my case, they'd turned it into a full-year course, the second half of which was beyond just typing and into various formats for business letters, filing systems, and so on. I got bored and managed to drop out after taking a test (51%, whew).

    Mom's point was that typing was a generally useful skill, like being able to hammer nails. She wasn't thinking we'd become secretaries, just able to type our college papers without pain. She'd taken touch-typing in the 40's and never been a secretary but never regretted it.

    Electric typewriters were still rare in 1972, the Apple ][ still in the future, so how much less excuse is there now for not calling it a "basic skill"? For me, it's been huge. A lot of IT work is very verbose and repetitive; I do SQL all day long some days, with tiresome table/column names like INFRANET_SW.WTR_HYDRANT.WH_VALVE_DIRECTION. (Or, yes, I can take my hands from the keyboard, move the mouse to the panel that's the list of tables, scroll down to the hydrant table, click on it, look down the column-panel for the column name, and click...which takes at least as long...if you touch type; or much longer than typing if you don't).

  54. Re:Schools dont change by geezer+nerd · · Score: 2, Interesting
    How does putting touch-typing BACK into schools involve introducing new "technology"? I took touch-typing in high school back in about 1958, along with all the girls who were preparing to be secretaries. The teacher was not sure what to do with a college-track student in the class -- I don't think it had happened before. We banged away on manual typewriters, nothing electronic, not even anything with an electric motor to assist. I don't think that qualifies as technology.

    I had no thought that typing would be career-useful; I just was thinking about the term papers I would have to do in university. I was preparing for a science or engineering career, and in those days that did not imply using a keyboard. But, like the original poster of this article, I have marveled at how much that one lowly course in high school had an impact on my ultimate career in software development.

    I actually don't know much about high school curricula these days. Has typing actually been eliminated? Or is it simply not mandatory? I think the idea of everyone being required to be proficient at typing is a good thing, but I am not sure it should be done as a course. I imagine in today's world many people are just picking it up.

  55. Re:Schools dont change by neumayr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As a bit of a reality check, let me describe what happened when my school got one of those "smart boards".
    The teacher that ordered it was rather technophile, for a teacher at least. Though also a little older, not quite up to date with current technology. However, when he tried to use it in class, he ran into all kind of problems. The software required a later version of Internet Explorer than was installed on that presumably vanilla Win2k that was supposed to run the thing. Not that it said so outright, it gave a cryptic message about some function not being available. Of course, he had no way of knowing what's the problem was, and sent for some tech support. They took the PC with them, and didn't return it for a week. So, it was back to traditional blackboards.
    After the PC was back, it was discovered there were applications missing the smartboard software assumed was there, e.g. Acrobat Reader iirc. So, it was back to tech support again.. And so on, thousands of problems came up that prevented the use of that shiny new toy, and after a while even that teacher gave up.
    So, you're saying it's stupid to not be able to install a smart board. I don't think teachers, or anyone except computer professionals, have to have this obscure knowledge about interpreting cryptic error messages, and as computer technology is often portrait as the solution to everything, more people run into that kind of problems, get frustrated and give up.
    Contrary to common conception, computers are not the solution to everything - way too often, they create problems where there were none, trying to solve non-issues.
    I have yet to experience a use of a smart board, where a traditional blackboard wouldn't have done the job at least as well, without requiring any training on part of the user.

    --
    Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
  56. Re:Schools dont change by Jhon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know that if I had to choose one of the two skills to retain while I permanently forgot the other

    An interesting side-bar:

    I have a friend who suffered brain trauma. He lost his ability to speak and write (aphasia). He could understand everything spoken to him. The unusual aspect of this injury is that his ability to communicate via typing was unharmed (this came out during a PT session using computers). He couldn't remember how to join words with a pen -- he couldn't remember how to say words to form a sentance -- but he could read and type. He could also read out loud. He keeps canned phrases on his phone which he'll read off.

  57. Re:Schools dont change by fractoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I taught myself to type, and I type at 100 wpm. I use all my fingers, just not in the ridiculously formal way touch typing is taught.

    I'd say of all the replies, you're probably closest to my style. I did a 3 month typing course in first year high school, then promptly forgot it all. Later when I finally had regular use of a computer, I found myself typing with my fingers on the home row. A while later I found out by accident that I really didn't need to look at the keyboard while I typed. I've tested myself at 90wpm but I tend to type slower if I'm not transcribing (and infinitely faster if I am - gogo copy/paste :P ) because the bottleneck isn't my keyboard skills. I'd suspect that that's why I haven't raised my speed past 90wpm, and that if I started to spend more time on IRC again I'd see some improvements.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.