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Most Detailed Photos of an Atom Yet

BuzzSkyline writes "Ukrainian researchers have managed to take pictures of atoms that reveal structure of the electron clouds surrounding carbon nuclei in unprecedented detail. Although the images offer no surprises (they look much like the sketches of electron orbitals included in high school science texts), this is the first time that anyone has directly imaged atoms at this level, rather than inferring the structure of the orbitals from indirect measurements such as electron or X-ray interferometry."

229 comments

  1. really? by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Funny

    looks like it was done in MS paint to me...

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    1. Re:really? by ModernGeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      The shadows are all wrong.

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    2. Re:really? by Canazza · · Score: 4, Funny

      Physicists are not photographers! They obviously had the shutter speed too low - Look how blurry the picture is!

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    3. Re:really? by ionix5891 · · Score: 1

      No thats just the new Ribbon interface

    4. Re:really? by sq3rjick · · Score: 1

      It's a shop! I can tell by the pixels, and from having seen many shops in my day.

    5. Re:really? by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      Although, in B, the breasts do appear to be in proportion.

    6. Re:really? by eugene2k · · Score: 1

      I wonder if it's a pirated MS paint...

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    7. Re:really? by miro+f · · Score: 4, Funny

      can't really call it a photograph if it was taken with electrons rather than light.
      I wonder how they can tell the electron is blue?

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    8. Re:really? by Frools · · Score: 1

      Those are all natural carbon breasts!

    9. Re:really? by daveime · · Score: 1

      It's a space station !

    10. Re:really? by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 2, Funny

      Looks like the magic 8-ball to me.

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    11. Re:really? by tsa · · Score: 2, Funny

      Duh. It's in a vacuum! Of course it's blue.

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    12. Re:really? by jassuncao · · Score: 1

      looks like it was done in MS paint to me...

      Nope. It's clear they used Photoshop. Those atoms look to good to be real.

    13. Re:really? by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      Thus permanently killing the movement to reduce our output of carbon.

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    14. Re:really? by InLikeFlynn · · Score: 1

      Its a trap!

    15. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Everybody knows electrons are blue!

      NB:
      Its the same with quarks but they are not blue ;)
      http://www.particleadventure.org/quarks.html

    16. Re:really? by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

      Looks like a smurf sat on the photocopier.

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    17. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can tell the electron cloud is blue because they ran the photos through the red-eye remover in Photoshop.

    18. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the bouncing of electrons off an atom is a similar concept to light bouncing off anything else in every day life.
      The blue is there mostly because they had to pick some color, they're not actually saying its blue, since the color blue is created by LIGHT reflecting not the actual object itself.

    19. Re:really? by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      Now with brine shrimp!

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    20. Re:really? by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      I wonder how they can tell the electron is blue?

      They asked them. Turns out their relationship with their nucleus has soured. They want to break free of each other, but they just can't let go. Typical codependent relationship.

    21. Re:really? by Noodlenose · · Score: 1
      what I want to know is how Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies to photography.

      NN

    22. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... Speaking of blur, I'd believe there is definitely motion blur. I wonder if the atom would look different if this process could be done with it super-cooled to near absolute zero.

      I'd almost be willing to bet that if the electrons could be slowed down enough, they wouldn't be distinct objects, but rather higher density lumps amongst spiral arms. Such that an atom structure would strongly resemble that of a galaxy. (Which when going the other way may bring up the question if different types of galaxies could actually correspond to their own "table of elements". They do form some interesting macro-structures which may be comparable to chemical bonds, so why not look into whether there's a full fractal aspect to the universe?)

      But under normal conditions, those things are spinning around so fast that all you can do is see fuzz and only get the probability aspect of the structure. I suppose for most chemistry and general physics purposes, that would be good enough.

    23. Re:really? by taddyhatty · · Score: 1

      For someone, looks like atom in "A" common sense, for others, looks like new particles in his mind. This is the truth.

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    24. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a trap!

    25. Re:really? by Mozk · · Score: 1

      That was completely off-topic, even in response to the off-topic grandparent, but I have to agree with you. I don't much like huge boobs, even if they're real.

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    26. Re:really? by Strike+Fiss · · Score: 1

      This is a 'shop. I can tell from the electrons and from seeing many atoms in my time!

    27. Re:really? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      ...Outlook not so good?

    28. Re:really? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and everyone knows electrons are yellow, not blue.

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    29. Re:really? by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      Call it an electrograph then.

    30. Re:really? by easyTree · · Score: 2, Informative

      Did someone post the wrong image? Isn't this the winner of last year's "Least detailed photo of anything" contest? I'm pretty sure it is.

    31. Re:really? by flewp · · Score: 1

      You joke, but the red eye remover tool was essential in gathering this image. You see, this is actually an image taken of a carbon atom in someone's eye. The guys over at CSI first used the red eye remover tool, and then they used "image enhance" 65,403 times to generate this image.

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    32. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can't really call it a photograph if it was taken with electrons rather than light.

      the bouncing of electrons off an atom is a similar concept to light bouncing off anything else in every day life.

      So, perhaps 'electrograph' would be more accurate than 'photograph'?

    33. Re:really? by miro+f · · Score: 1

      considering the word photograph comes from the greek word phos (light), bouncing anything other than photons off an object cannot be called a photograph.

      Electrograph is probably more accurate

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  2. Speaking as a chemist by PatrickThomson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is amazing. We'd theorised orbitals to exist, and they worked very well. We could calculate the shapes of molecules and make detailed predictions that came true to 10 decimal places. Quantum mechanics as applied to electrons in atoms is the most successful and the most rigorously tested theory ever developed.

    And yet, to finally see a real orbital, not a simulation. Looks like a 1s and a 2p, right there for the looking!

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    1. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Orbitals are not real ! They are mathematical constructs and they are not observables. People think that just because you can calculate something it is real, that is not the case. The two previous "observation" of orbitals were bogus and this seems to be the same thing over again. Orbitals are one-electron functions and thus an approximation to the wavefunction of the system.

    2. Re:Speaking as a chemist by pinkushun · · Score: 1

      It's confirming the theory, I agree that is amazing!

    3. Re:Speaking as a chemist by PatrickThomson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We can only "approximate" orbitals in atoms with more than one electron, true. That's the same as saying that numerical methods won't "exactly" solve a function. We can still get really accurate results, even if it's computationally expensive. FT-IR of heteronuclear diatomics, anyone?. Orbitals still retain the basic shapes in multiple-electron atoms.

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    4. Re:Speaking as a chemist by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speaking as a chemist, could you explain what exactly this means? Up until this very moment I have been under the misguided notion that the nucleus of an atom was orbited by electrons within groups called "shells", and these worked very similarly to satellites around a planet. I've looked up and read (for around 5 minutes, so give me a little time to properly read up on it) that this is not the case, and that the "shells" model given to 16 year olds is (understandably) over-simplified.

      So, could you in any way explain how we get from "think of it as a planet with many moons" to this or more importantly, what gives orbitals this shape?

      Maybe I'm opening Pandora's Box here, but I'm intruiged.

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    5. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a chemist: Why do we see two individual orbital images? Needs explanation to add validity. I don't see how they could isolate images of individual orbitals with this technique.

    6. Re:Speaking as a chemist by anarchyboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Depends what you mean by real, certainly splitting your many electron wave function into orbitals works well and allows an accurate approximation of the system as a whole. The orbitals do form a basis of functions for the system (with some acceptable approximations) so while your quantum state is the whole thing you can think of it as being built of oribitals. This is true in a mathematical sense its an expansion of the quantum function as a set of orbital functions. This is as valid as any other expansion like a taylor or powerseries expansion. So orbitals are real enough in that sense. You can then calculate observables for the individual electrons since your operators will act only on the single electron and your oribtals are normalised the rest of the electrons essentialy go away and you can calculate things like the average radial ditance etc and build up pictures of what that electron "looks like". Since the orbital functions are calculated (numerically) as a multi electron system even though the end product allows you to look at individual electrons as orbitals the overall wave function (all the orbitals combined) is still a very accurate picture of the system

      In fact the experimental evidence showing a physical picture of these orbitals just goes to show that this is in fact a very sensible and useful way of picturing your atom.

    7. Re:Speaking as a chemist by PatrickThomson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Basically, a chemistry education is very much like fast-forwarding through 300+ years of science history. Some dead-ends are skipped, but by and large, the simpler and more self-contained a theory was, the older it is and the earlier it's taught in school. The university-taught molecular orbital theory is (debatably) too rich and complex to be taught any earlier.

      The moons-orbiting theory fit with all the available evidence at the time it was developed. Think of orbitals as clouds of probability where, if you tried to pin down the electron, it might be. A moons-orbiting theory would give this probability cloud as a thin donut around the atomic waist. The shapes of orbitals as depicted in wikipedia etc. are consequences of the maths of quantum mechanics. It's annoyingly non-intuitive.

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    8. Re:Speaking as a chemist by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Informative

      Speaking as a chemist, could you explain what exactly this means? Up until this very moment I have been under the misguided notion that the nucleus of an atom was orbited by electrons within groups called "shells", and these worked very similarly to satellites around a planet.

      You're thinking of the Bohr model.

      So, could you in any way explain how we get from "think of it as a planet with many moons" to this or more importantly, what gives orbitals this shape?

      It's because the Schrodinger equation is a Laplacian, and the hydrogen atom is a spherically symmetric problem. The natural basis for the Laplacian in spherical coordinates is spherical harmonics. The shape you are seeing is the characteristic shape of different spherical harmonics, corresponding to the angular momentum of the electron.

    9. Re:Speaking as a chemist by S3D · · Score: 2, Informative

      Up until this very moment I have been under the misguided notion that the nucleus of an atom was orbited by electrons within groups called "shells", and these worked very similarly to satellites around a planet.

      Think of a satellite randomly teleporting around the planet, leaving ghostly afterglow behind. The "glow" would have the shape of those shells. Or the "brightness" of the shell is the probability of existence of "satellite" in the point of space. What gives orbitals their shape is the Schrodinger equation.

    10. Re:Speaking as a chemist by The_Duck271 · · Score: 5, Informative
      At atomic scales electrons cannot be thought of as points; instead they are smeared out probability distributions. They don't exist at any given point, there's a chance for a given electron to be found throughout a whole region of space, and the probability of finding it at any given point is given by a probability distribution. These probability distributions are called wave functions, and given an electron's wave function you can calculate the likelihood of getting different results when you take a measurement of the electron. It is a strange aspect of quantum mechanics that you can't calculate exactly what you will measure, you can only establish the probabilities of each possible outcome.

      Another aspect of quantum mechanics is that if you measure, say, the energy of an electron in an atom, you can only get one of a certain set of discrete values, and never any energy in between those values. The energy of the electron is quantized. In general, if you measure an electron's energy you have a certain probability to get a result corresponding to the first energy level, a probability to find it in the second energy level, and so on. This is also the case for some other things you can measure, like angular momentum.

      However, there are certain wave functions that correspond to exactly one value of energy; that is, if you have an electron with this wave function, you are guaranteed to get a certain energy value when you measure it. In fact, there is a special set of wave functions with the following three properties:
      • They each have a definite energy level.
      • They each have a definite total angular momentum around the nucleus.
      • They each have a definite angular momentum around the z axis.

      These wave functions are the atomic orbitals that are so important in chemistry. If you calculate the shapes of the wave functions that satisfy these properties, you get the shapes shown on the Wikipedia page. They are listed in a table indexed by the variables n, l, and m. n corresponds to the energy level, l corresponds to the total angular momentum, and m corresponds to the angular momentum around the z axis. For example, you can see that orbitals with high m (angular momentum around the z axis), like the ones on the very right of the Wikipedia table, are sort of flattened out by the centrifugal force from spinning fast around a vertical axis.

    11. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's wrong to think of the electron as a particle when it's "orbiting" in an atom. Instead you should think of it as a probability density. This is Schroedinger's cat all over again, the electron is "smeared out" all over its "orbit" but instead of being "half dead, half alive" it's x% here, y% there.

      This is also like the two slit experiment. The electron doesn't go through one slit or the other, it goes through both slits (not 50% dead and 50% alive; 50% went through that slit and 50% went through this slit) but when it hits the phosphor screen it's a particle as its "where is it" probability function collapses to a point.

      The "wavefunction" is (as far as we can tell) a mathematical curiosity that when squared gives us the observed probability function. The probability distribution is real, the wavefunction gives us a convenient handle to calculate probabilities and how they evolve.

      But now that I've said that the wavefunction is an imaginary curiosity, imagine a sine wave on a string and then join the two ends of the string together. There will only be a few discrete lengths of string where the sine wave will "join up" correctly (ok there's an infinite number but the length of the string is limited). It turns out that, with rather a lot of unpleasant maths (see the wikipedia page for spherical harmonics), our wavefunction works like that sine wave and we find that there are only certain orbitals where the wavefunction is well behaved.

      Tim.

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    12. Re:Speaking as a chemist by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      You probably mean that the Schrodinger equation describes the shape of the orbitals.

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    13. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Over here in the UK we threw away the orbital theory at the age of 16/17 in favour of the probability clouds. I'm sure it was still a simplification of (or precursor to) whatever theory was cutting edge at the time, but it was part of a pre-university chemistry education. And quite interesting too.

    14. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Velaki · · Score: 1

      I think it's awesome. What would be better is if they can capture s-p (1, 2, and 3) hybridization, and use that to study reaction mechanisms. I would like to see a double-bond, even if it's a picture of the Flash, rather than just a conceptual probability cloud.

    15. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a chemist, I hope you meant 2s.

    16. Re:Speaking as a chemist by commodore64_love · · Score: 1, Funny

      I don't remember learning any chemistry in my U.S. government-run school. Although I did get an A in drivers ed and sewing/cooking (home economics).

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    17. Re:Speaking as a chemist by master_p · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could it be that we can't pinpoint the exact position and velocity of an electron at the same time because they are interlinked with all the surrounding particles? i.e. the act of measurement affects the outcome.

    18. Re:Speaking as a chemist by fredrik70 · · Score: 1

      intersting, however, why does the probability wave collaps by the phosphor screen and not by the slits? because observation?

      IIRC if you place measuring equipment by the slits you collapse the waveform there already (i.e. the electron goes through one slit or the other), this would destroy the interference pattern as well, no?

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    19. Re:Speaking as a chemist by tsa · · Score: 1

      Actually, as the article says, you can make electron orbitals visible with AFM for atoms in a crystal or other structure. This is the first time orbitals of a single, lone atom have been resolved. Very cool stuff, this.

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    20. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this is stated in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

    21. Re:Speaking as a chemist by radtea · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends what you mean by real

      By "real" I mean things that obey the laws of non-contradiction and causality, which wavefunctions don't (which is why we see experimental violations of Bell's Inequalities.)

      So I see this argument over whether or not spherical harmonics are "real" kind of beside the point: they are a mathematically useful decomposition of a conceptual artefact that is already ontologically problematic.

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    22. Re:Speaking as a chemist by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      This is amazing. We'd theorised orbitals to exist, and they worked very well. We could calculate the shapes of molecules and make detailed predictions that came true to 10 decimal places. Quantum mechanics as applied to electrons in atoms is the most successful and the most rigorously tested theory ever developed.

      And yet, to finally see a real orbital, not a simulation. Looks like a 1s and a 2p, right there for the looking!

      I know. It's like with waves of electromagnetic force. We see the drawings of magnetic fields and assume those lines are for our benefit, that it doesn't really look that way. And then you stick a magnet under paper and sprinkle iron filings on it and sure enough, magnetic lines! It feels like cartoon physics made real. Gonna take me a magic marker and draw a little door on my office wall so I can open it up and go inside during lunch and catch zome z's.

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    23. Re:Speaking as a chemist by nsuccorso · · Score: 1

      What a shame. I remember taking college level Chemistry in my U.S. government-run school. (Well, actually, my school was run by state government like most public schools. You must have gone to school on a military base or something.) And getting credit for it when I went to University. On the other hand, I didn't get drivers ed until I graduated, and I had to pay for it at a private driving school.

    24. Re:Speaking as a chemist by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      Same in Canada.

      I was rather disappointed when I got to university and they taught us the same stuff again! I'd figured that pbty clouds were yet another lie. :)

      In all seriousness, E=even in the earlier grades when we were taught orbitals, valence shell electron respulsion theory, etc were told that it was a simplified model which worked well most of the time. Same deal for the Ideal Gas Law, Newtonia Physics, etc.

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    25. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, is that electron cloud thingy like bugs whizzing by your car on the highway or something? I need car pictures to understand this doohickey.

    26. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same at my (Public) US High School.

    27. Re:Speaking as a chemist by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 2, Funny

      damn, the UK is so great. I wish more people actually wanted to move into your country and got the hell out of mine.

    28. Re:Speaking as a chemist by anarchyboy · · Score: 1

      Actually in some sense the wavefunctions are the real bit. Observables do not give a full picture of the system due to the uncertainty principle and the effect of measurement. Describing an electron say classically with position and momentum is far more problematic since it just doesnt work. The wavefunction provides all the information about the system it is infact the only real thing, problems only occur when you start taking measurements and describing effects like collapsing the wavefunction which may or may not be an acurate description of what really happens. Other interpretations such as the many worlds interrupratation require no such collapse and the wavefunction is not effected by measurement.

      Saying that wavefunctions are not real is a bit like saying the wind isnt real because you cant see it, you only see it's effects.

    29. Re:Speaking as a chemist by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      Electrons don't exist as such. They are just manifestations of vibration modes in certain energy fields.

      The satellites around a planet view is deeply wrong and flawed. It doesn't account for Young's sleets experiment. It doesn't account for valence.

      It is not event consistent with itself: how can you have those electrons orbiting in the same shell and never bumping into each other or crashing into the nucleus?

    30. Re:Speaking as a chemist by tibman · · Score: 1

      That's because it was optional, you had to decide you wanted to take that class. They can't make you learn chemistry. I was actually in the US Government DOD school system my entire life. Every school had a decent chem, bio, and physics lab (comp labs didn't get nice until aound 2000).

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    31. Re:Speaking as a chemist by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      To all of the replies above / below, thanks for your efforts. However, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with "moons orbiting a planet." I get around three lines into each comment, and my mind wonders to images of Keira Knightly wearing nothing but a strategically placed Kinder Egg.

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    32. Re:Speaking as a chemist by HiChris! · · Score: 1

      Hmm I'd like to see more details - anyway it would be a 2s (not 1s) and a 2p orbital that were imaged, but Carbon has 2 electrons in a 2s orbital and 2 electrons in 2 different 2p orbitals so why do these images look the way they do? Shouldn't all the orbitals be overlapping? It sounds like they did some sort of excitation - so maybe we are seeing a higher level excited electron orbital - which means that maybe it would be a 3s or 3p?

    33. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Based on your previous posts, your lack of education was never in doubt.

    34. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for this, it's the first time the light bulb has actually gone for me wrt to quantum mechanics.

    35. Re:Speaking as a chemist by emjay88 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yep and if you do an even more elaborate experiment, where you put detectors at each slit, but then wire the detectors up to the same output (ie, the electron is detected, but you don't know which one detected it), the wave function doesn't collapse until it hits the screen!

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    36. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Nimey · · Score: 1

      That's an excellent explanation. I've saved that to a text file to refer to later.

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    37. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Barterer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Very informative, thanks. When you say the electrons have a definite momentum about the Z-axis, do you mean just one chosen axis (depending on your perspective and axes you assign) or does it have something to do with which way is "up" or gravity?

    38. Re:Speaking as a chemist by pla · · Score: 1

      And yet, to finally see a real orbital, not a simulation. Looks like a 1s and a 2p, right there for the looking!

      Yeah... That part makes me just a tad suspicious of this image...

      First of all, carbon has 2p2 in the ground state - So we should never actually see the s orbitals.

      Second, "ground state" amounts to an abstraction rather than a description - Electrons don't really sit around in the ground state configuration, they constantly bounce around between higher orbitals. And FTA, "They placed a rigid chain of carbon atoms, just tens of atoms long, in a vacuum chamber". So not only did they get a ground state configuration, but they managed to get it from a single atom participating in covalent bond? Someone feel free to correct me, but shouldn't that make one lobe of the 2p orbital smeared out in the direction of its neighbor?

      Don't mean to sound like a pessimist, and I'd love this to end up legit, but I have my doubts until someone can reproduce their methodology and get similar results.

    39. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Sinbios · · Score: 1

      Huh? You didn't have to memorize 1s 2p etc in high school chemistry?

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    40. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 1
      Its only when you document the traditional QM interpretation so clearly - as you have - that it becomes so obviously absurd and anticonceptual. No wonder I had so much trouble in my QM and QED courses.

      It's wrong to think of the electron as a particle when it's "orbiting" in an atom.

      It's only wrong in the sense that it doesn't follow a traditional trajectory. As with the double-slit experiment, if one conceives of it following a wave trajectory, the results are the same. So you've got a physical particle the entire time, but it follows the path of a wave. In the case of the double-slit experiment, this makes much more sense: an electron goes through one or the other slit, depending on where it happens to be in its wave trajectory. The apparent interference pattern on the phosphor screen is simply the result of many electrons having their own initial wave trajectories. The pictures are identical, but one is conceivable (ie, conceptual), while the other is not.

      The probability distribution is real

      It is only "real" in the sense that when we make many observations, they fit that distribution. What's actually real are the electrons themselves. The rest is our analysis of their motion. To say that a probability distribution or probability density is a real thing is to assert that electrons and the universe in general were made with observers in mind. After all, a probability in this context is the chance of an observer finding an object in a given location.

      What I have been hinting at this whole time is the deBroglie-Bohm alternative (aka "Bohmian mechanics") to the traditional QM interpretation, which was furthered by JS Bell. This professor has some good intro material online and in arXiv on this subject.

    41. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's how I first thought about it too, but it works out that this actually isn't true. If the entire universe was composed of just a single electron, and you had some god-like perspective on it, you'd still see it as a probability wave flying through space. The double-slit experiment can verify that. It actually looks like the probability field is /more/ fundamental than the particles themselves.

    42. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is Schroedinger's cat all over again, the electron is "smeared out" all over its "orbit" but instead of being "half dead, half alive" it's x% here, y% there.

      The electron is not smeared out, its wave function is. Your post constantly confuses an electron with its wave function.

    43. Re:Speaking as a chemist by onionman · · Score: 1

      As a mathematician I love it when measurement science is actually able to observe something predicted by theory in previous decades. This is an amazing piece of work that gives me a visceral punch better than a quad espresso.

    44. Re:Speaking as a chemist by rangek · · Score: 1

      Another chemist here.

      What predictions does Bohmian mechanics make that traditional (Copenhagen) QM does not?

    45. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. The particle whether observed or not goes through both slits. To YOU it only goes through one. We don't affect the outcome, we just can only see one possible outcome.

    46. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 2, Informative

      No it doesn't because my post explicitly says that the wave function is a mathematical curiosity.

      My post does constantly confuse an electron with the probability function of finding it. But that's because that's the way electrons behave. If anything the probability function is more fundamental so it should be "You constantly confuse the probability function with a hypothetical billiard ball model of the electron"

      The wave function is a mathematical trick that just happens to allow us to calculate the probability distributions we observe. It has no known physical significance whatsoever.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    47. Re:Speaking as a chemist by sjames · · Score: 1

      You learned the Bohr model which was proposed and widely accepted before the development of quantum theory. It was a decent theory for it's time as it did a good job of modeling observations up to that time. Even then, we knew there were limitations to the model (for example, an object in orbit experiances constant acceleration yet the electrons didn't radiate their orbital energy away and crash to the nucleus).

      Once the Schrodinger equation was accepted, finding the shape of the orbitals was a matter of solving the equation for the case of the electrons by selecting a probability cutoff. That whole process would take a book sized text (that I'm not qualified to write) to detail.

      The orbital is the region where interaction with the electron is highly likely. The hard part to wrap one's head around is that the orbital is NOT a region of space with a little ball shaped particle somewhere inside it. It seems that it's not a matter that we don't know how to locate it more specifically or even a matter of it having a more specific location that we somehow cannot know, it actually HAS NO more specific location to discover.It does not possess a more specific locality.

    48. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 1

      In the case of the double-slit experiment, this makes much more sense: an electron goes through one or the other slit, depending on where it happens to be in its wave trajectory. The apparent interference pattern on the phosphor screen is simply the result of many electrons having their own initial wave trajectories. The pictures are identical, but one is conceivable (ie, conceptual), while the other is not.

      I'm not sure what you're trying to say here and I might be misinterpreting but it's explicitly not many electrons. You can turn down the beam current in the two slit experiment until you're talking about orders of magnitude less than one electron in the apparatus at any one time on average and you still get the diffraction pattern.

      I've skimmed http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-bohm/ and it seems to say that you've got non-local hidden variables instead. I don't know why it's any more conceptually obvious that a "variable" should be smeared out than an "electron" should be smeared out. I'll just define the electron as my variable and we're talking about the same thing (no, I still don't know what it _means_, I can just churn the numbers and get some results that agree with experiment)

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    49. Re:Speaking as a chemist by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      By "real" I mean things that obey the laws of non-contradiction and causality, which wavefunctions don't (which is why we see experimental violations of Bell's Inequalities.)

      I'm confused. It looks like you're saying that there is experimental verification of wavefunctions, and that wavefunctions are (or can be) acausal and self-contradicting. If this is so, wouldn't that mean that those laws are (at the very least) incomplete and thus not an accurate test for reality? Isn't stuff at the quantum level like reality's machine code? Could it be that the laws you mention are like programming language limitations, able to be circumvented when you're working at a low enough level? Or maybe even just conventions?

      These are genuine questions. I'm a layman with mystical leanings, so I get excited when I see things like non-locality and acausality. I'm surprised that others aren't, because stuff like that seems to say "reality has a more complex structure than we thought" and opens new avenues for investigation. It's a shame to say "well that's just not real" and ignore it, especially for those with a scientific mindset (with or without the mysticism). Or I could be missing something obvious to you wizards who work and play in the quantum realm. More information is always appreciated...

    50. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Nothing2Chere · · Score: 1

      Wow....And I thought _I_ was a nerd. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

    51. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the probability of finding it at any given point is

      is ZERO!

      given by a probability distribution

      density would be mathematically more correct.

    52. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 1

      intersting, however, why does the probability wave collaps by the phosphor screen and not by the slits? because observation?

      We don't know why the wave function collapses. That post a few days ago about playing "Schroedinger's Cat" with a virus was a tiny step towards understanding.

      IIRC if you place measuring equipment by the slits you collapse the waveform there already (i.e. the electron goes through one slit or the other), this would destroy the interference pattern as well, no?

      Correct. If you detect the electron going through a slit then you get a distribution on the phosphor screen consistent with electrons being emitted from the slits.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    53. Re:Speaking as a chemist by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'll likely second that. Nice work.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    54. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      For probably 99.9% of chemistry, valence shells work predictably and simply. Same with Newtonian physics for 99.9% of gravity problems. It's only when you get to extreme scales that these theories break down. Frankly, probability clouds are useless to a chemist most of the time, as it's easier to accurately predict how a molecule will behave with the valence electron models.

      Basically, probability clouds are useless until you start working on RWS (Really Weird Shit).

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    55. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Don't get your panties in a bunch over semantics, of course the equation doesn't create the behavior. Jeeze.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    56. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I took the honors section of chemistry in my U.S. government-run school. Learned about the Schrodinger orbitals for atoms, which led to a general discussion of why the periodic table is called the 'periodic' table and why it's organized as it is, did interesting experiments in spectrophotometry and o-chem, built and used a calorimeter, and more. We used the same textbook that I later used in intro college level chemistry.

      I'm sorry you wasted high school taking simplistic classes. I don't think "the government" is completely at fault for that.

    57. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      What predictions does Bohmian mechanics make that traditional (Copenhagen) QM does not?

      The right question to ask. Check out this paper on arXiv: Understanding Bohmian mechanics: A dialogue. The whole paper is a good introduction, but the "Second Day" section should answer your question. What it really comes down to is which should we accept: a theory tied to reality, which is understandable, or a theory that is not understandable, and is divorced from reality, but whose equations work just the same? The former is the Bohmian interpretation, the latter is the traditional QM interpretation.

    58. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can turn down the beam current in the two slit experiment until you're talking about orders of magnitude less than one electron in the apparatus at any one time on average and you still get the diffraction pattern.

      That's not correct. See experiment and photos here (Figure 2). Single electrons produce single dots. It's only after you dump many electrons through that you get a pattern - that's simply because the electrons follow wave trajectories rather than the standard trajectory visualized from classical motion. In reality everything follows these same wave trajectories, it's just that for macroscopic objects, the individual oscillations of the individual particles cancel out.

      I don't know why it's any more conceptually obvious that a "variable" should be smeared out than an "electron" should be smeared out.

      The phrase "smeared out" conveys nothing, so it should be no surprise that it can be used for situations that are completely different.

    59. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Electrons don't exist as such. They are just manifestations of vibration modes in certain energy fields.

      Ahh, gotcha. So since they don't exist they don't have mass then, ok. Wait, what? They certainly do exist, and they certainly are particles. They just behave very, very strangly, just like -everything- at the sub-atomic level.

      What the hell did you think Quantum Mechanics was all about?

      It is not event consistent with itself: how can you have those electrons orbiting in the same shell and never bumping into each other or crashing into the nucleus?

      Now you're trying to apply logic to something that has, frankly, never been logical. We've got mathematical models that work, but they certainly don't make any sense in a way the average joe (I'm including myself in that category) would see as logical. Valence theory never made sense, but it worked. The atomic structure doesn't make much sense (positive nucleus surrounded by negative electrons and it never collapses? WTH?) but it is certainly true. It doesn't make electrons any less particles, or less negatively charged and moving around a positive core.

      They are actually very similar to Electro-Magnetic radiation, which consists of photons moving in a sort of intersecting wave pattern. Very strange, and yet it's true. The particle nature of light has been proven, and the wave nature of light is even easier to prove.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    60. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Sorry but I've got absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What does "that's simply because the electrons follow wave trajectories" mean?

      Of course the diffraction pattern is built up from an ensemble of electrons. The probability of detecting the electron at the point of detection is 1. That's precisely what "collapsing the wave function" means mathematically. We don't have a handle on what it means physically.

      If we "label" the electrons as they pass through the slit then we don't get the diffraction pattern. If we erase that "label" without looking what it was then we do. Even more bizarrely, if we erase the "label" _AFTER_ the electron should have reached the target we still get the diffraction pattern but if we don't erase the label then we don't get a diffraction pattern. (Delayed Quantum Eraser) (Admittedly, to the best of my knowledge the delayed quantum eraser has only been done with correlated photons, not electrons but there's no known reason why it wouldn't work with electrons)

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    61. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 1

      the wave function doesn't collapse until it hits the screen!

      It's even worse than that. The wave function doesn't collapse until it's hit the screen AND we've decided whether to check the reading about which slit it went through.

      When you wire your two detectors up to the same output, put a very long "wire" between the detectors and the output. Then, sometime after the electron hits the screen but while the signal is still propagating along the "wires" cut one of them (or not, depending on how you feel). Obviously if you cut one of the wires then we can tell which detector triggered based on the output and we don't see a diffraction pattern. But if we don't cut the wire then we do see a diffraction pattern. (you cannot look at where the electron finally hits until you've decided about cutting/not cutting the wire)

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    62. Re:Speaking as a chemist by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Yes and no.

      No, in that there really is no "unknown position" of the electron that we learn after observing. Its amplitude distribution *is* its existence, at the most fundamental level. You get a much worse model if you assume the electron actually is moving through some path that you just don't know yet.

      Yes, in that your act of observing the electron has an effect on it. But what's really going on is that you're "decohering" with the electron such that your relative state (relationship between you and the electron) now only has it at one point. Going by the many-worlds interpretation, there are other "you"s that perform the same act and see it shrink down to a different point. The multiple "you"s are decoherent and can no longer interact with each other.

      Aside: "observation" has nothing to do with consciousness; it's just the creation of mutual information between two bodies. In other words, making it so that learning one tells you something about the other.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    63. Re:Speaking as a chemist by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      By your reasoning having mass and existing are the same. Ergo photons don't exist either :)

      You must have missed the century-old memo which says mass and energy are more than a little bit related...

      Particles are just a way of thinking. A more correct way of thinking is seeing everything as a probability density function. A yet more correct way of thinking is seeing things in terms of Lie group symmetries.

      Particle vs wave is just a way of showing why both formalisms have problems. This does not mean we have no formalism which account for both behaviours!

      Simply the maths involved are not college level.

      For example, you speak of EM radiation. EM radiation is not made of "photons moving in a sort of intersecting wave pattern". This is just the picture shown to indicate the magnetic field is always orthogonal to the electric field. These two are forces, and the combined field is *mediated* by photons. This means that the _interactions_ of anything with an EM field are observed by detecting photons.

      An electric field is mediated by electrons and the interaction of this field are observed by detecting electrons.

      The photons and electron are produced spontaneously from the interactions when they involve a change of energy.

      The fields can be understood as the density of probability of the occurrence of a photon/electron *when an interaction occurs*. The field equations resemble strongly wave functions, and the field mediators behave a lot like particles (never mind the fractional spin of an electron...), this is why we have the so-called "duality".

    64. Re:Speaking as a chemist by casualsax3 · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, where did you go to school that you ended up calling college "University"?

    65. Re:Speaking as a chemist by mujadaddy · · Score: 1

      *masturbates furiously*

      --
      Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
      "Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
    66. Re:Speaking as a chemist by kmac06 · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by non-contradiction and causality? How do wavefunctions not obey those? Violations of Bell's inequalities show that wavefunctions do not obey realism and locality.

    67. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      What does "that's simply because the electrons follow wave trajectories" mean?

      Well, in classical motion, trajectories are straight lines. Add in gravity, and the lines become curves. At the quantum level, though, that doesn't apply (or rather, isn't dominant), but neither does the notion that particles *become* waves. Instead, they follow wave trajectories, rather than straight lines. Check out this article in arXiv: Understanding Bohmian mechanics: A dialogue, good for newcomers asking these sorts of questions. This site has some good illustrations of the trajectories, which were copied from an illustration on the site I first linked you to. Here's a paper from Physics Letters A will a better illustration of the trajectories (page 209).

      That's precisely what "collapsing the wave function" means mathematically. We don't have a handle on what it means physically.

      That arXiv article covers exactly that. Check it out.

      I cannot speak to the polarizing label experiments. I'd be interested in Prof. Norsen's take on it. I'll send him a question and see if he answers. He's been quick with responses before, so I'm hopeful.

    68. Re:Speaking as a chemist by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      Speaking as a chemist, could you explain what exactly this means? Up until this very moment I have been under the misguided notion that the nucleus of an atom was orbited by electrons within groups called "shells", and these worked very similarly to satellites around a planet. I've looked up and read (for around 5 minutes, so give me a little time to properly read up on it) that this is not the case, and that the "shells" model given to 16 year olds is (understandably) over-simplified.

      I'm thinking that the Shells idea that you are considering is just describing it in a way that makes it easy to wrap your head around it for easier visualization. The only thing you really need to take from the "Shells" model is that the Electrons grouped in the same shell are going to be (Somewhat) similar in terms of Energy required to strip the electrons from the Shell. For Example - Calcium would have 2 electrons in it's outer "shell". We know those two electrons are pretty easy to take away. We also know that taking away an electron from the next "Shell" is damn near impossible. That is extremely easy to understand and even visualize but not entirely true in reality. Others, who seem to be more into the physics side of things broke down what reality is a little better.

    69. Re:Speaking as a chemist by The_Duck271 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The z-axis is arbitrary; you just pick some direction and call it the z direction.

    70. Re:Speaking as a chemist by m50d · · Score: 1
      Single electrons produce single dots. It's only after you dump many electrons through that you get a pattern

      Yes, but the point remains - you get an interference pattern, even though there was only ever one electron going through at a time.

      You can call it a "wave trajectory" if you like, but a wave (an ordinary, water or (non-quantum, for the moment) light wave) would go through both slits at the same time - just like an electron does.

      --
      I am trolling
    71. Re:Speaking as a chemist by m50d · · Score: 1
      There is no proven violation of causality. As for non-locality, the Bell inequalities say nothing, but entanglement can cause what seems to be non-local behaviour - and it is measurable. We won't really understand entanglement until we understand decoherence, and that's still an open problem.

      What the Bell inequalities tell us is that reality really is fundamentally nondeterministic - quantum mechanics can't possibly be a "layer" on top of some more fundamental, underlying, deterministic system.

      --
      I am trolling
    72. Re:Speaking as a chemist by gribbly · · Score: 2, Informative

      It *is* correct. GP said "less than one electron in the apparatus at any one time on average and you still get the diffraction pattern" which is right. Even if you only ever send one electron through it will be detected in a location consistent with the fringe pattern.

      From the link you included in your reply:

      "Although electrons were sent one by one, interference fringes could be observed."

      You say "Single electrons produce single dots. It's only after you dump many electrons through that you get a pattern" which I think is misleading at best. It suggests that the first electron could be found in a location consistent with classical mechanics. The reality is that from the very first dot you'll be seeing interference effects (this is the heart of the double slit experiment), although it's true it won't *look* like there's a pattern until you've accumulated many dots.

      Anyway, my point is that GP had it right.

      --
      maybe
    73. Re:Speaking as a chemist by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Ok, I've done enough skim reading now to have a clue about what Bohm (and the subsequent theories) are about.

      I don't accept that it's conceptually any simpler than the standard model. It has pilot wave/Quantum Field/Wavefunction/Whatever you want to call it propagating faster than light but that doesn't matter because we cannot measure it. I find that as uncomfortable as indeterminism in the standard model. But I can see how it can be made to work.

      Everett had an interesting criticism of the Bohm model that resonates with me. The Bohm model elevates position to a special status (and momentum) since it is well defined and, IMO, therefore makes "particles" a core part of the theory. But Everett shows that the particles are completely unnecessary in the Bohm model and we still get the same results. (Extending that one step further - which Everett would not have agreed with - ISTM that we're then back to a non deterministic "probability field" problem. Everett, of course, stopped with the field and went down the many worlds path)

      I might do some more reading around this subject in the future as it's certainly got possibilities to indicate new questions to ask that might not be so obvious when looking at the standard model (not that I'm going to be coming up with stuff like that) - for example it appears to be the importance of hidden variables in the Bohm model that drove Bell to produce his inequality and it's now obvious that non-locality is a requirement of any QM formulation. It also appears that the collapse of the wavefunction being an artifact of the interpretation rather than a requirement of the physics also wasn't appreciated - I hadn't realized that because the way I was taught QM emphasized from the start that the wavefunction was a mathematical model that could be used to do calculations and there was no known physical reality corresponding to it. (Which is also why I probably got no exposure to the Bohm model - people who think that the wavefunction is merely a model are hardly likely to have much truck with a theory that says that the wavefunction is a physical reality)

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    74. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Amiralul · · Score: 1

      And it was overcomed by using Heisenberg compensators!

    75. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      The Bohm model elevates position to a special status (and momentum) since it is well defined and, IMO, therefore makes "particles" a core part of the theory. But Everett shows that the particles are completely unnecessary in the Bohm model and we still get the same results.

      They are necessary to make any sense of the measurements. The alternatives are contradictions - entities that are both waves and particles at the same time, existing in many locations, communicating instantaneously over long distances, dependent on the existence of an observer, all possible outcomes considered real and intertwined, etc. In order to have any hope of integrating quantum theory with the macroscopic world, we have to have some common conceptual ground. Right now, there isn't any. This is tantamount to saying, "relativistic theory has no possible correction for quantum motion, so therefore waves don't exist at large sizes - you get the same result so it doesn't matter!" Of course it matters.

    76. Re:Speaking as a chemist by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the point remains - you get an interference pattern, even though there was only ever one electron going through at a time.

      You seem to have not followed the discussion. Read through the other comments. The Stanford Encyclopedia puts it pretty clearly here: "While each trajectory [ie, each particle] passes through but one of the slits, the wave passes through both; the interference profile that therefore develops in the wave generates a similar pattern in the trajectories guided by this wave." So whereas traditional quantum theory claims that the particle itself somehow passes through both slits, Bohmian mechanics states that the particle is riding a wave, and only ever passes through one or the other slits - depending on its initial conditions -, but once the particle and its wave hit the slit, the wave indeed passes through both slits and interferes with itself, and ultimately modifies the particle path accordingly. So the difference may seem trivial, but it is quite huge - one is possible, the other is not; one leads to contradictions, the other does not.

    77. Re:Speaking as a chemist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Electrons are point particles. Their probability amplitudes are waves. The electron goes through one slit or another, it can't go through both. The wave packet goes through both slits and interferes with itself.

    78. Re:Speaking as a chemist by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Up until this very moment I have been under the misguided notion that the
      > nucleus of an atom was orbited by electrons within groups called "shells",

      That model is close enough to still be useful, although there is much that it does not explain.

      > and these worked very similarly to satellites around a planet.

      No, that's been thoroughly discredited decades ago. A satellite in space has a specific known location within its orbit at any given point in time and moves predictably along an established trajectory, based on inherently-macroscopic physical properties like inertia. Subatomic phenomena absolutely don't do that, ever. For one thing, they don't have enough mass to have any significant inertia or gravity. Also, they're small enough that the close-range forces can have a relevant impact on their overall behavior.

      > and that the "shells" model given to 16 year olds is (understandably) over-simplified.

      All models are over-simplified. It's just a question of how *much* they're oversimplified, and in what ways.

      Take, for example, the covalent and ionic models of molecular bonding. On the surface they seem to be contradictory, but that's because they're just models, and they're oversimplified in different ways. They are both useful because they both correctly describe *some* properties of molecular bonding, but neither model is entirely correct. Depending on the circumstances of a particular reaction, one or the other of them may seem to be more accurate. For example, the ionic bonding model is very good for describing what's going on in a solution of sodium chloride in water. The covalent model fails to describe some aspects of this material, perhaps most notably its electrolytic properties. On the other hand, the ionic bonding model does not adequately explain what's going on in large hydrocarbon chains, and the covalent model comes much closer. You can tell yourself, "well, the salt and water are ionic compounds and the dodecane is a covalent molecule", but all you're really saying is that one model does a better job of explaining the one substance, and the other substance is better explained by the other model. The truth is that the same basic forces are at work in both compounds. Both models are oversimplified, but in different ways that to a greater or lesser extent account (or fail to account) for different situations.

      So yes, the orbital-shells model is oversimplified. For that matter, the "standard model" in particle physics is oversimplified. It's a model.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    79. Re:Speaking as a chemist by m50d · · Score: 1
      Bohmian mechanics states that the particle is riding a wave, and only ever passes through one or the other slits - depending on its initial conditions -, but once the particle and its wave hit the slit, the wave indeed passes through both slits and interferes with itself, and ultimately modifies the particle path accordingly. So the difference may seem trivial, but it is quite huge - one is possible, the other is not; one leads to contradictions, the other does not.

      You're not making any difference - as you can see by the way your result agrees with the QM one. If you want to declare that the particle creates a wave and that wave passes through the slits and then alters the particle's trajectory, you can, but Occam's Razor will eat you - it's more true to simply say that the particle behaves as a wave, unless you have an experimental way of separating your particles from their waves (which I know you don't, because that would give rise to an experimental violation of QM, and there isn't one).

      --
      I am trolling
  3. Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Maddog+Batty · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Leo Gross and his colleagues at IBM in Zurich, Switzerland, modified the AFM technique to make the most detailed image yet of pentacene, an organic molecule consisting of five benzene rings"

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17699-microscopes-zoom-in-on-molecules-at-last.html

     

    --
    wot no sig
    1. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep

    2. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your article is much more impressive, IMHO. All I see in the original story is three blue blobs. You could have told me it was false-colour cellular mitosis, and I'd have believed you. I understand that the detail in the story is much higher (imaging one atom instead of a whole molecule) but seeing hexagonal Benzene rings with my own eyes just excites me more.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by junglee_iitk · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is anything but similar.
      * That article was about taking picture of big but fragile molecules, even though atoms have been pictures before with ease.
      * This article is about even detailed picture of atoms.

    4. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Schiphol · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hey, individual orbitals are several orders of magnitude smaller than pentacene molecules.

    5. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by junglee_iitk · · Score: 1

      My English has deteriorated :(

    6. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. There's one carbon atom at each corner of the hexagon. Consider there to be one of these blue spheres to be at every corner; that makes a significantly different scale.

    7. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1s and 2p. I think I would have found far cooler atoms to photograph. Three blurry blue blobs aren't very reassuring. They could be orbitals or random noise amplified.

    8. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by Nothing2Chere · · Score: 1

      ...an organic molecule consisting of five benzene rings..."

      Is is bad that I read the end of that as "consisting of five Bene Gesserit rings"? n2c

    9. Re:Similar Pictures From Switzerland by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      I think an individual deciding which seems more impressive to them is probably based on where their true interests are. As a BioChemist for the most part, I did not really think much about the structure of individual atoms after the first semester of introductory chem. For Chemists, it doesn't matter if the electrons are solid particles, light waves, or miniature flying spaghetti monsters. What does matter is which molecules want more electrons and which want fewer....and how badly they "want" to donate/accept said electrons. For me, the picture in the original article was pretty cool whereas the pictures in maddogs article is more along the lines of "HOLY SHIT! IT IS A REAL PICTURE OF AN AROMATIC HYDROCARBON!"

      It reminds me of college. My room mate was a physics major. He'd come home with some physics problems relating to quantom and ask me if I could help him try to figure them out. Makes sense to him, I'm the one looking at molecular related things all day. When I saw the material, I was absolutely clueless. It was so far above anything I had studied in that area. I'm guessing he'd appreciate the first picture more. ;)

  4. Why is this significant? by romit_icarus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The ability to directly measure electron density is quite an old technique. STMs and AFMs have been doing this since the very beginning.. I agree with the researcher's quote in the article that it's good to develop a complementary technique(FEEM) abd at best that's its contribution. I'd be happy to hear what else it contributes. though I don't quite agree with his or the editors spelling! ;) "it's always good to have complimentary approaches,"

    1. Re:Why is this significant? by Genda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The ability to directly measure electron density is quite an old technique. STMs and AFMs have been doing this since the very beginning.. I agree with the researcher's quote in the article that it's good to develop a complementary technique(FEEM) abd at best that's its contribution. I'd be happy to hear what else it contributes. though I don't quite agree with his or the editors spelling! ;) "it's always good to have complimentary approaches,"

      In this particular application, its simply a very cool thing to be able to prove theory with direct measurement. In the future I can imagine viewing electron orbitals for test samples of high temperature superconductors or producing high resolution images of the electron cloud density for a protein (get a better idea of the quantum component for protein folding) might prove extremely useful and interesting.

      In my experience, no sooner does someone come up with a better device for viewing, then someone comes up with a exquisite need for that device.

    2. Re:Why is this significant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "STMs and AFMs have been doing this since the very beginning"

      Niether of these directly measure electron density.
      STMs measures electrical conductivity, AFM measures surface accessibility, and depends mainly on electrostatic and Van Der Waals forces.

      This is the first technique to directly measure electron sensity

    3. Re:Why is this significant? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      ...it's good to develop a complementary technique... ...though I don't quite agree with his or the editors spelling! ;) "it's always good to have complimentary approaches,"

      You are quite correct, I hadn't paid any attention to that before, from Grammatically Correct:

      In its verb form, the word complement refers to emphasizing the good qualities of another person or thing by adding something.

      In its verb form, the word compliment refers to the act of praising someone or something.

      It's kinda odd to have homophones that have nearly, but not quite, the same meanings, but that's English for you.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  5. Re:like your penis, then? by Kokuyo · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Trolling isn't your forte, is it?

  6. Unscaled photo link by UPi · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:Unscaled photo link by PGC · · Score: 5, Funny

      Unscaled, wow. That is one HUGE atom.... no wonder they were capable of photographing it.

      --
      The Dutch will inherit the earth. If not, we'll settle for a bit of ocean. Beta delenda est!
    2. Re:Unscaled photo link by machine321 · · Score: 1

      The second one is my ass on a photocopier. The first one is your mom's.

    3. Re:Unscaled photo link by fastest+fascist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not to pick nits, but is a picture that is the result of electrons striking a surface actually a photograph?

    4. Re:Unscaled photo link by miro+f · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have embedded the unscaled photos in this post.

      Millions of them

      --
      being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
    5. Re:Unscaled photo link by plasm4 · · Score: 1

      isn't a photograph just the result of photons striking a surface (film)?

    6. Re:Unscaled photo link by Cobralisk · · Score: 1

      Fine, call it an electrograph then.

      --
      Waiting for ad.doubleclick.net...
    7. Re:Unscaled photo link by chainz · · Score: 1

      Is arrangement b a photograph or a is it photocopy of the atoms ass?

    8. Re:Unscaled photo link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you.

    9. Re:Unscaled photo link by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Sure, just as much as a UV or IR photograph is, or a radio telescope image, or an X-ray or MRI for that matter.

      However, if you like, we could call it a "visual representation of an object using some property of elctromagnetic theory via apparatus applying that theory" - or, we could simply call it a photograph and not worry about what detection and imaging techniques were used.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    10. Re:Unscaled photo link by pclminion · · Score: 2, Informative

      or, we could simply call it a photograph and not worry about what detection and imaging techniques were used.

      I would kind of prefer that we limit the use of the word "photograph" to include images produced by illumination by photons. There's a reason that the imagery produced by electron microscopes are called "micrographs," not photographs. The images are produced by the irradiation of the specimen with electron waves, not photons.

    11. Re:Unscaled photo link by Amiralul · · Score: 1

      If I stare at the photo for more than 5 seconds, I swear I can see Jesus!

    12. Re:Unscaled photo link by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      True! Since photos are a pattern created by photons striking a surface, and in this case we talk about electrons, the thing we see here should be called an electrograph. Duh.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  7. There are other ones by houghi · · Score: 2, Funny

    There are other ones like this one or even the inside of one like here

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  8. Grok it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now you can really grok what an atom looks like!

  9. Wooo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Particle porn! Could you shave off those electron clouds, now?

    1. Re:Wooo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you think they are called Bare Ions?

  10. Magnification by Butterspoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    On my monitor, the unzoomed images are about 3cm across. This corresponds to a magnification factor of around 100 million! Awesome!

    --
    pi = 2*|arg(God)|
  11. This is much more impressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17699-microscopes-zoom-in-on-molecules-at-last.html
    because it is harder to have such a good picture of a molecule without destroying it ....

  12. It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why? Because the "orbitals" are actually solutions of the Schroedinger Wave Equation. They are images or a probability distribution in abstract space. Electrons are not clouds or points, they are things we don't really understand but describe by means of quantum mechanics. So I am deeply suspicious of the picture, because there is no physical object of that shape to image.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by vikhyat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's probably like one of those long exposure photographs.

    2. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I am deeply suspicious of the picture, because there is no physical object of that shape to image.

      Sounds like you've caught religion. Off of QM of all things.

    3. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I think of electrons as wavicles - little chopped-off bits of waves that are bouncing-around the atom but not able to escape due to the proton's attractive force.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If I understand it correctly, what they've done is to "feed" the carbon atom with a stream of electrons (also known as a current...) and then the've imaged the pattern that forms as one electron after another is shot away from the atom to a phosphor surface.

    5. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The article was extremely superficial when describing the actual experiment, but essentially a current was passed through a small chain of carbon atoms by applying a voltage across the chain. The current caused the the carbon atom at the tip to give off electrons to a phosphor screen. I would suppose that these "given off" electrons were integrated (summed) over time and this formed a pattern that reflected the shape of the probability distribution, i.e. orbital. Each electron that was "given off" constituted a sampling experiment regarding electron position, and the sum total of the samples would, over time, give rise to the orbital shape. In the case of an s orbital, electrons were given off in all radial directions. For the p orbital, certain angles gave off no electrons. This behavior corresponds to the quantum equations.

    6. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by MiniMike · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait until you've read the paper in Phys Rev B then, it's possible the reporter just put their own spin on it...

    7. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by nigham · · Score: 1

      Why? Because the "orbitals" are actually solutions of the Schroedinger Wave Equation. They are images or a probability distribution in abstract space. Electrons are not clouds or points, they are things we don't really understand but describe by means of quantum mechanics. So I am deeply suspicious of the picture, because there is no physical object of that shape to image.

      I completely agree. Besides, from what I remember from high-school physics, how we "see" *anything* is when light falls on an atom/molecule, these electronics get excited into higher than natural states. When they go back to their natural states, they emit a photon that is characteristic of the material (color etc.). Given this, I don't see (pun intended) how it's possible for such a photograph to be taken.

      --
      I don't want to read /. I want to go home and re-think my life.
    8. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you RTFA, they describe how they got the images; basically, it's similar to how a PET scan works, but instead of positrons emitting photons, it's the electrons being given enough energy to leave the atom. So it would make sense that the picture shows the solution to the wave equation; the electrons had a given probability of existing at a particular point when the voltage was applied, and so that's the probability of seeing that point show up on the image.

      As for what they 'really' look like... I doubt there's any way to directly image that (at least, according to QM there shouldn't be), so we might as well accept that either the world really is nothing more than a probability field, or that other answers lie in the realm of philosophy.

    9. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      They are images or a probability distribution in abstract space... So I am deeply suspicious of the picture, because there is no physical object of that shape to image.

      Of course there is! There's the electron, whose location is a probability function that looks like the picture in the article. So if you're trying to take an image of the atom, and since obviously you aren't going to take a picture of something using a single sample (photon, or in this case emitted electron), you're going to "see" the electron cloud as an average that matches the probability. It's not supposed to be a picture of the electron at one "instant" in time. That would be difficult, and not very informative.

      Electrons are not clouds or points, they are things we don't really understand but describe by means of quantum mechanics.

      Kinda. An electron isn't the same as an electron orbital, and not all electrons are bound in orbitals. We know they are particles, we know their mass and their charge and can both predict and track their movements through electric fields... That's the very basis for the electron microscope used to take this image! It's the electrons themselves that the microscope is detecting!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    10. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given this, I don't see (pun intended) how it's possible for such a photograph to be taken.

      The article explains how the photo was taken. I know we aren't suppose to read it before posting, so it's "ok" you didn't, but now that you've posted, you might go read it. It's worth the time.

    11. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      It's probably like one of those long exposure photographs.

      Of what?

      For those who modded this insightful -- please explain to me what this explains!!

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    12. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by jonadab · · Score: 1

      In other words, it's not in any way a photo of the orbitals in an individual atom. It's a collection of superimposed exposures produced by dozens of electrons given off by a number of atoms.

      This makes sense to me. I don't think it will ever be possible to *actually* image individual subatomic phenomena (e.g., electrons), because subatomic phenomena don't have a specific shape and form like a macroscopic object does. We call them "particles" because it's traditional terminology, but they're *not* particles if by particles you mean "like little dust motes, only smaller".

      Subatomic phenomena do not have the properties of macroscopic objects (shape, color, texture, hardness, etc), because the properties of macroscopic objects arise from the fact that they are composed of a particular arrangement of atoms and/or molecules.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    13. Re:It makes me very suspicious indeed. by metaforest · · Score: 1

      It seems to me:

      Imagine putting a charged phosphorus plate a short distance away (no idea exactly how far... a millimeter? A few 100 microns?) from the last atom in the carbon chain. If you charge the other end of the chain. From to ~450 volts electrons will scatter off the atom. Apparently that scattering, as an earlier poster pointed out, will have a coherent pattern based on the shell those electrons were thrown off of. The electron pattern expands over the distance, until it hits the phosphor plate.

      In this respect it's like taking a picture using a pin-hole camera... In this case the pin-hole is Carbon atom throwing electrons toward the phosphor plate. The phosphor plate glows in response to the electrons. Take a photo of the glowing phosphor plate.... Bet it was a REALLY long exposure.

      This is no different than the electron accelerator in a CRT. Except in this case the electron emitter is exactly 1 atom wide.

  13. I'm confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article has a couple of images with a 'view full-size' link. I clicked the link and the images got larger. I thought atoms were itsy bitsy little geegaws.

  14. mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    .
    (not actual size)

  15. How would this look animated and slowed down? by Gravedigger3 · · Score: 1

    I have always imagined atoms as I saw them in textbooks, a nucleus with balls spinning around it so fast it would look like a sphere. Now the first image holds up to this and looks about what I expected a photograph of an atom to look like. But I don't quite understand the second image. If those two ovals represent a single atom then why does it appear to split?

    It states in the article that the photo is of "two states' of the atom. Does the electron cloud just flow around the atom in such a way as to make it appear to be splitting in the second picture?

    --
    All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be. -PF
    1. Re:How would this look animated and slowed down? by The_Duck271 · · Score: 1

      The "nucleus with balls spinning around it" is a significantly oversimplified statement of the true quantum weirdness that goes on in atoms.
      See here and responses.

    2. Re:How would this look animated and slowed down? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "shells" is a simplified model that is very practical to use to visualize energy states and how atoms release "energy packets" (photons)

      The actual shape of the orbitals are explained here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital#Orbitals_table

    3. Re:How would this look animated and slowed down? by mattr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Electrons act like both particles and waves, following the laws of quantum mechanics. They are not really like moons traveling around planets in a neat circle.

      I'm not a physicist but my understanding is that each element has a different number of electrons balancing the positive charge of the protons in the nucleus. These electrons form electron shells which are at different energy levels, and the shells are composed of a combination of atomic orbitals.

      Quantum physics says that one cannot know where an electron is until you measure it. The three-dimensional geometric shape of an orbital indicates where the probability is highest that the electron will be found, but it could be just about anywhere. Some orbitals are spherical but others are very different shapes.

      Here are some wikipedia links:

      Atomic Orbitals
      Electron Configuration
      Electron Shells

    4. Re:How would this look animated and slowed down? by tenco · · Score: 1

      The balls are a lie.

  16. 12 Carbon atoms in a row by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... so bigger that CmdrTaco's manhood.

    Actually, it's an impressive achievement, especially in that it matched predictions of what it would look like.

  17. Re:Picture of story from two weeks ago by PeterBrett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's a picture of a dupe, complete with comments.

    It's not a dupe -- that was a different story, as you would know if you had compared TFA from each story.

  18. Even more rigorous by CarpetShark · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Quantum mechanics as applied to electrons in atoms is the most successful and the most rigorously tested theory ever developed.

    No way. Back in school, I theorised that throwing rocks at people's heads would hurt. For years, I used rigorous testing for sounds associated with pain to prove that correct.

    1. Re:Even more rigorous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much did it hurt you after you threw rocks on people ?

  19. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    So this is what's powering my netbook!

    1. Re:Wow by WoRLoKKeD · · Score: 1

      If it's made by Sony, it's also what's going to be thrown everywhere when the battery explodes.

      --
      Immolation is the sincerest form of flattery.
  20. (do not mod) by aepervius · · Score: 4, Funny

    ignore. Reply done to undo bad moderation

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:(do not mod) by machine321 · · Score: 5, Funny

      MOD PARENT UP!

  21. Shopped... by grahamlord86 · · Score: 0, Troll

    This looks shopped... I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time...

  22. Non scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could someone explain why the atom looks like a blob instead of the textbook planet and moon look alike(i.e. neutrons and protons and the planet and electron going around)?

    1. Re:Non scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes

    2. Re:Non scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      =P what?

    3. Re:Non scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the gp means is "read any of the 20 or so earlier comments that explain exactly that."

  23. Comment from Ukraine by buruonbrails · · Score: 1

    Knowing Ukrainian scientific facilities' state and extremely poor level of funding, I must admit that such an achievement is a miracle! You all should welcome our new Ukrainian atom photographing overlords.

  24. Not quite a of an electron in an orbital by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 5, Informative

    They do look like the classical orbitals, don't they?

    However, there are some problems with interpreting the image as a photograph of an orbital. What the FEEM does is to charge up a very sharp point. The actual voltage may not be very big, but the local field strength depends on screening and curvature, so you can get very large electrostatic fields around sharp features, and if you get the balance right, electrons will leave the sharp points, zoom down the field lines, and get imaged. I remember seeing a sharp tungsten needle in a FEEM back in the seventies, and seeing the individual atoms. This sort of thing provided the first real evidence of a screw dislocation. You got a strange projection of the tip of the needle, as the electrostatic field tended to map the roughly spherical tip onto a flat plane.

    So what is happening here? Our field stripping an electron from the orbital. We are getting a map of the electron flows as focused by the electrostatic field. We calculate the trajectory back through the electrostatic field and guess some sort of map of emission. They must have stripped hundreds or thousands of orbital electrons from the same atom, and replaced them to get each image. However, if an orbital 'pokes out' of the atom, or forms a 'sharp feature' (inverted commas because they are wave functions, so these concepts are a bit hard to define) then we get a bright spot. The really cool bit is getting the atom to go back to the same hybridization state hundreds of times, so we got the two-lobed picture.

    It's dead clever. However, for my money, the atomic force probes are cooler as they can measure the fields without stripping the electrons. But, as the reviewer said, it takes all sorts...

    1. Re:Not quite a of an electron in an orbital by maxume · · Score: 1

      I would sort of hope they look like orbitals, the classical model isn't really all that bad.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  25. blurry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Photo looks blurry... should have used a shorter exposure time.

  26. Streamed volts by jdh3.1415 · · Score: 1
    FTA:

    They placed a rigid chain of carbon atoms, just tens of atoms long, in a vacuum chamber and streamed 425 volts through the sample.

    I'm used to reading stuff like this in the main stream press. However, I would expect an article from insidescience.org wouldn't use such a nonsensical phrase. It's kind of like saying they streamed 425 pounds per square inch of water through a pipe.

    1. Re:Streamed volts by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      FTA:

      They placed a rigid chain of carbon atoms, just tens of atoms long, in a vacuum chamber and streamed 425 volts through the sample.

      I'm used to reading stuff like this in the main stream press. However, I would expect an article from insidescience.org wouldn't use such a nonsensical phrase. It's kind of like saying they streamed 425 pounds per square inch of water through a pipe.

      So the real breakthrough is that the research team was able to convert a fleet of GM's latest poster-child vehicle into data and transmit that information through a carbon sample!

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
  27. I guess... by TDyl · · Score: 1

    ...we now know what the Blue Man Group is composed of.

    --
    Todd: I hope it proves as delicious as the farmers that grew them
    1. Re:I guess... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Well, they're carbon-based life-forms, what did you expect?

  28. If you squint... by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... you can see Bigfoot in the background!

  29. Can't sleep; mods will eat me by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    I'm a bit disturbed that this post has been modded informative. Even if it was my post ;)

    1. Re:Can't sleep; mods will eat me by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      That's better. Thanks :D

  30. Cool by Elwar123 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Atoms are blue. I guess that explains why the sky is blue...it's full of atoms.

    1. Re:Cool by archangel9 · · Score: 1

      actually, everything is full of nothing. When you start studying the relative sizes of atomic particles and quantum mechanics/theory, sometimes I am amazed I don't simply fall through my chair.

    2. Re:Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you learn about fundamental forces and why physical objects don't freely penetrate, and realize your ass is safe!

  31. No fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No Fair; They change the results by observing them.

  32. Everything is an approximation by rlseaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Orbitals are not real ! They are mathematical constructs and they are not observables. People think that just because you can calculate something it is real, that is not the case.

    That a derived quantity is "just" a calculated approximate model of some part of the universe doesn't mean it isn't real. Forget about orbitals and quantum mechanics, consider planetary orbits and classical mechanics. There is no such thing as a closed elliptical orbit as depicted in the textbooks. All orbits are unclosed.

    Physics IS building models. Models are real even if they are incomplete:

    http://www.revell.com/catalog/products/buzz_aldrin_rocket_hero.html

    It may not be Buzz, but it shares the quality of physical existence with him. (And Buzz is himself not the man he was on the Moon.) The absurdity of Moon-landing deniers lies in the fact that each and every one of us spends our entire life embedded in outer space. Where else would be be? The evolving Earth is far more special a place than just another desiccated Moon.

  33. Poor fakes by AlpineR · · Score: 1

    They even got the colors wrong. In (b), one lobe should be yellow and the other red. Everybody knows that electrons aren't blue.

  34. Atoms are fake by Sam36 · · Score: 0

    I still think atoms are fake. Heck that one pic looks like testicles

  35. oblig. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://xkcd.com/331/

  36. They did WHAT?! by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    They placed a rigid chain of carbon atoms, just tens of atoms long, in a vacuum chamber and streamed 425 volts through the sample.

    Bad day to be a carbon atom, eh?

    1. Re:They did WHAT?! by WoRLoKKeD · · Score: 1

      It's okay. They're not unionized.

      --
      Immolation is the sincerest form of flattery.
  37. Pity this is AC by Kupfernigk · · Score: 5, Informative

    Thanks for responding. This could do with some mod points but I can't mod and post...so I'll respond. It's interesting to think about what is happening here. It's possibly unhelpful to refer in the same sentence to "current" and "electrons" but I know what you mean, though I would rephrase it a little to help my own understanding. The "current" did not cause the carbon atom to give off electrons; rather, the potential difference enabled some electrons to pass along the carbon chain until they left the tip, and the path of the emerging electrons was probabilitistically interfered with in a way that reflected the solution of the Schroedinger wave equation for the outer electrons of the end atom. That's a very interesting experiment. The benefit of using carbon atoms in a molecule is that the bond angle presumably locks the orientation of the P orbitals sufficiently to enable the experiment. So for many atoms it simply wouldn't work, and what we are seeing here is not an image per se but something more like the result of the Rutherford/Geiger/Marsden experiment. It looks like a significant experiment, but the summary is quite wrong as to what is being shown.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Pity this is AC by chill · · Score: 2, Funny

      It looks like a significant experiment, but the summary is quite wrong as to what is being shown.

      Dude, this is Slashdot and the discussion is on elementary particle physics. What exactly did you expect?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    2. Re:Pity this is AC by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      ...what we are seeing here is not an image per se but something more like the result of the Rutherford/Geiger/Marsden experiment.

      What is an 'image' per se then?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:Pity this is AC by metaforest · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that you might be able image some other configurations at least with elements that will bond onto the end of a carbon chain. If TFA and TFE is for real it's a very interesting.

    4. Re:Pity this is AC by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      It is an image if the math is right. Some people have a hard time with images once you go outside of the "illuminate with X, detect with Y" paradigm. But if SEM/TEM PET_scans and MRIs are images, so is this.

    5. Re:Pity this is AC by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      But isn't the 'math being right' based on the paradigm of 'how we would perceive it with our visual system if such an object were on a scale what we could 'look at it'

      I mean, if you're doing a physical detection of a thing, the math can never be wrong, can it ( well, there is always a tolerance of error on the equipment itself) ? They're not creating an image out of nothing, like a drawing of an atom taken from theory; they are making measurements of one sort or another. Here, we're judging those measurements as far as how well they can seemingly emulate a phenomena that only exists on the macro level -- at this thing does not exist, so it can't generate such phenomena. We're judging the 'imageness' of the image based on whether it looks like something it really isn't and cannot be.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    6. Re:Pity this is AC by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      AFA the math being right. Have you ever looked at how the images on an MRI are actually made.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging#Imaging
      You arn't just taking a signal from a sensor and directly making an image from it. Sometimes it is more complicated.

      Another example is SAR/iSAR (synthetic aperture radar). You won't an direct image back from that w/o doing the right math.

  38. Speaking as a Layman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...Think of orbitals as clouds of probability where, if you tried to pin down the electron, it might be. ...

    huh?

  39. FREE ELECTRONS! by mfnickster · · Score: 1

    From TFA: "While tools like the scanning tunneling microscope already map the structure of electrons in a sample of many atoms, 'it's always good to have complimentary approaches,' Goldhaber-Gordon said."

    It is indeed good to have approaches that are 'on the house,' so to speak...

    "Complimentary coffee, muffins and electrons in the lobby every morning". :)

    --
    "Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
  40. Bastards! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not quite sure why I had to enable javascript for their website just to view an image.

  41. The annoying part, as always... by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

    Is that there's no way for a measurement to show the phase, so we could only see two P orbitals (l=1, |m|=0, 1) in the carbon atom. I wonder if they could compel the P orbital electrons to assume different quantum numbers and see if the pictures show the expected differences between the three different possibilities (both with same m, opposite m, m=0 and |m|=1). Or experimentally verify how electric/magnetic fields distort the orbitals and still get the emitted electrons to form a picture.

  42. So? by zapakh · · Score: 1

    I look at lots o' atoms.

  43. Can't we compare it by Alanis+Morissette · · Score: 1

    to a car?

  44. looks like a magic 8 ball to me... by vaporland · · Score: 1

    Reply hazy, try again.

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    Ask Me About... The 80's!
  45. Virtin Mary by Joebert · · Score: 1

    Does anyone else see what looks like the Virgin Mary in the one on the left ?

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  46. Why this breakthrough happened in the Ukraine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because since Chernobyl, many atoms there are fit to burst. They're huge lumpy things you can just photograph with an 8MP snapshotter with a macro facility. I mean look at those photos ... they're obviously before and after fission shots, of something looking just like cells in a newly fertilised Godzilla zygote. Godzilla's genetically just a garden skink, but if you make him out of those giant burstable atoms, and he's huge. He'll lunch in Kiev and dine in Odessa.

  47. Looks like it coulda been Photoshopped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep, that's definitely the gradient tool