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Spyware Prank Exposes Hospital Medical Records

cheerytt writes "Let this be a lesson to all the broken-hearted geeks out there. A 38-year-old Ohio man is set to plead guilty to federal charges after spyware he meant to install on the computer of a woman he'd had a relationship with ended up infecting computers at a children's hospital. Spyware was sent to the woman's Yahoo e-mail address in the hope it would be used to monitor what his former girlfriend was doing on her PC. But instead, she opened the spyware on a computer in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department. The spyware sent more than 1,000 screen captures via e-mail, including details of medical procedures, diagnostic notes and other confidential information relating to 62 patients. The man will pay $33,000 to the hospital for damages and faces a maximum sentence of five years in prison."

319 comments

  1. Wrong type of tracking by jrumney · · Score: 4, Funny

    He should have just planted a GPS in her handbag, then he'd have the full protection of Massachusetts law.

    1. Re:Wrong type of tracking by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      I think Ohio that's still considered an invasion of privacy.

    2. Re:Wrong type of tracking by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really, you think he had a search warrant?

    3. Re:Wrong type of tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should understand the Mass law before you comment on it

    4. Re:Wrong type of tracking by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Or he could have just moved on with his life. I swear people do the dumbest things to spy or date people that don't like them. If he would have just spent half as much effort making himself more appealing: working towards better job/pay, working out more, finding better clothing, and just researching what makes men attractive to the opposite sex he'd have all kinds of women instead of a $33,000 fine and up to 5 yrs in jail.

      fail.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
  2. The Woman by some_guy_88 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So what's happening to the woman who stupidly ran an exe she recieved in an email?

    1. Re:The Woman by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a hospital no less.

      What happened to the geek who setup the transparent web proxy that allowed that?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:The Woman by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      I mentioned eMule to a co-worker. He was fired the next day. I found out when I had an interesting visit from one of the execs asking me if I knew what eMule was. It brought down the entire network. It's been my experience most organizations don't take incompetence lightly. I bet she got fired and I think the IT guy should go too.

    3. Re:The Woman by spacefight · · Score: 1

      Are there any proxies who can filter _all_ sort of packing/zipping/password protected executable files with a 100% hit rate? I doubt it.

    4. Re:The Woman by the_womble · · Score: 1

      Given how badly IT has been run at some place I have worked, I would say lots of organisations cannot identify technical incompetence.

    5. Re:The Woman by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most all of them can be configured to reject anything they can't verify as "safe". Whitelist, don't blacklist, it's the first rule of security.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    6. Re:The Woman by bschorr · · Score: 1

      Well, she's obviously not the brightest bulb on the tree. I would say that yes, it is possible to block all of the zip/executables that a user like that would get. It's not like he changed the extension to .PDF but included instructions that she was to rename it to .EXE after saving it to her drive, right?

      There are ways for geeks to get executables past web security. I suspect he just sent her a .EXE or a .COM or something like that and she opened it.

      And what kind of web security do they have that allows Yahoo mail anyhow?

      --
      -B-
    7. Re:The Woman by Shikaku · · Score: 2, Funny

      Note to self, quick and easy way to get rid of unwanted coworker.

    8. Re:The Woman by CarpetShark · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Whitelist, don't blacklist, it's the first rule of security.

      Except when you're mandated to provide general internet access.

    9. Re:The Woman by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Hope you got that mandate in writing.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    10. Re:The Woman by plastbox · · Score: 1

      When you are, you provide it on separate machines on a separate vlan. "general internet access" has no place on the "general workers" work computer, no matter how competent the users feels (s)he is with MS Word!

      At the very least, you never allow mail with executable attachments through your defences (nor mails with archives containing executables, etc.)

    11. Re:The Woman by mspohr · · Score: 1

      So what's happening to the IT administrator who stupidly installed a Windows computer with an open admin account that allowed the woman to run an exe?

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    12. Re:The Woman by mcvos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whitelist, don't blacklist, it's the first rule of security.

      Except when you're mandated to provide general internet access.

      If for whatever silly reason you need to provide general, unprotected internet access, you do that with seperate machines, isolated from the hospital medical record stuff.

      Whichever way you spin this, it's a horrible, gaping hole in the security of the hospital's computer system. The people who set it up and authorised it need to be fired and replaced by people who know something about (the need for) security.

    13. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't you think her boyfriend would have at some point in the past been added to those whitelists?

      that is why blacklist, don't whitelist is the first rule of security. you aren't whitelisting to provide access, you are doing it so the wrong people don't get access. blacklists block access.

    14. Re:The Woman by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      > At the very least, you never allow mail with executable attachments through your defences (nor mails with archives containing executables, etc.)

      People will get around this easily - just zip the executable in a passworded zip file, put that passworded zip file into another passworded zip. Or rename the passworded zip file as .bin or something. Contrary to popular belief, there are legitimate reasons for emailing executables in zip files - e.g. an updated version of a driver to someone who can't access FTP because their firewall blocks it.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    15. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The second rule of security is we don't talk about the first rule of security!

    16. Re:The Woman by plastbox · · Score: 1

      Good points, but not being able to block all executables in all circumstances isn't a real good excuse for not blocking the 95%+ you can.

      The e-mail scanners I am somewhat familiar with can scan anything but password encrypted archives where even the filenames in the archive is hidden. It still stops spam containing "compiled" PowerPoint presentations and the typical "my ex nude.jpg.exe" files. If we were to remove that protection, we'd likely be swamped by trash in a matter of hours, as the average Word/Excel users don't have a clue as to the difference between a safe and an unsafe filetype nor the savvy to check who sent the mail (and that can be faked well enough to trick most users anyways).

      In the rare cases where a trusted outside sender needs to get something delivered to an inside user, whitelisting goes a long way. As for downloading drivers and the like, that is work for the IT department. Users shouldn't be able (nor ever need) to download or install anything, and us IT guys are on a much more free vlan of our own where we can download whatever we need.

    17. Re:The Woman by Kjella · · Score: 1

      People will get around this easily - just zip the executable in a passworded zip file, put that passworded zip file into another passworded zip. Or rename the passworded zip file as .bin or something.

      A home/ISP virus scanner probably have to let those through, but not a corporate one. You can try sending me a passworded zip, it won't get through as the scanner will reject it. And yes, it peeks at the attachments and recognizes most file types, renaming a zip or exe will get you nowhere. It's a royal pain in the ass for the few legitimate cases but overall it's very effective at stopping spam.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    18. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      She was congratulated for her achievement of being a woman, and was given a promotion in order to appease the politically-correct quota gods.

    19. Re:The Woman by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably nothing, at least not from the law. She's protected by the fact that judges are stupid enough to do the same and don't want to go to jail themselves.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:The Woman by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      They can't. HR doesn't understand computers, I've had job interviews that felt a bit like they ran along the script of the IT-Crowd pilot.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:The Woman by Angstroem · · Score: 1

      And where exactly is that needed in hospitals?

    22. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any admin worth his or her salt, espically in an environment that touchy about data, is going to "block-all-but" flags. Proxy server or something.

    23. Re:The Woman by NatasRevol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, but it doesn't do a damn thing in this case, or most places at work, where users can access their personal mail accounts via webmail.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    24. Re:The Woman by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Because you need admin account to run an exe?
      Or put one on the desktop?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    25. Re:The Woman by mspohr · · Score: 1
      You're right. I forgot how brain damaged the Windows security model is...

      In Linux, of course, you would need admin privilege to run an executable which is one reason Linux doesn't get viruses. But in Windows, anyone can download and execute anything... dumb.

      So I guess I should rephrase that as "So what happened to the IT administrator who installed Windows computers in a situation where patient privacy and security could be compromised?"

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    26. Re:The Woman by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      The admin that allows for outlook to execute files of this nature is not doing his job, and if this came from hotmail as many do...then the user should not have had execute privileges for any .exe not already installed...they are called policies people...use them, know them...own them!

      She should get fired for doing her private stuff on a hospital computer that ended up being compromised, luckily it was tracked down to someone here, should it have been a russian mafia type in russia, how could you have gone to his house there...?

      Also the admin needs to get fired too, he is not doing his job!

    27. Re:The Woman by isaac338 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're right. I forgot how brain damaged the Windows security model is...

      In Linux, of course, you would need admin privilege to run an executable which is one reason Linux doesn't get viruses. But in Windows, anyone can download and execute anything... dumb.

      So I guess I should rephrase that as "So what happened to the IT administrator who installed Windows computers in a situation where patient privacy and security could be compromised?"

      What? Any user can set something executable and run it in a Unix system. It'll just run with the privileges of the user, which in this case is more than enough.

    28. Re:The Woman by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Probably, the administration told them they had to allow it so that the administration wouldn't have to hear everyone bitch about how they can't check their email, or get online, or 'read a case file', etc, etc.

      It's not always the IT admin's fault.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    29. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod Parent Up.

      It is very terrible that legimitate domains like *.Yahoo.com and *.google.com have useful business features (search) and features that also cause problems (email). And while not impossible it is very hard to block just the email.

      It is also politically a problem when the hospital admin staff want to use their Yahoo! messenger at work.

    30. Re:The Woman by adamziegler · · Score: 1

      I'm on windows using a limited non-admin account, and have a Linux box (not using root)... and I am using the internet browsers on the machines... which happen to be executables! (Along with a number of other programs which normal users can run.) Running executables is not the issue.

    31. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whitelist, don't blacklist, it's the first rule of security.

      Yeah, for racists!

    32. Re:The Woman by Andrewr05 · · Score: 1

      That is hilarious, I can imagine that too.. Clicking... Double clicking... The internet... Email... the boxy bit that sits on the floor *THE HARD DRIVE* yeah yeah that... lmfao

    33. Re:The Woman by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Tip from someone who has suffered hell after such interviews: DO NOT take the job if the interview runs that way.

      Ponder this: Who will eventually end up working there? How knowledgeable will your coworkers be? Consider that people apply to various places, and if the HR department is smart enough to have a dev/engineer sit in for the interview, the dropouts won't work at those companies. So where will they work?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:The Woman by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2, Informative

      What? Any user can set something executable and run it in a Unix system. It'll just run with the privileges of the user, which in this case is more than enough.

      Uhh. Mounting things lusers have write access to as noexec deals with that.

    35. Re:The Woman by guruevi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You obviously don't work at a hospital. It would be very unpractical to provide 2 machines to every person, 1 for web access and 1 for hospital records. The issue is that this person ran spyware that she received. Virus scanners won't help, the only thing that could help is that she shouldn't have admin privileges (which is kinda impossible with some hospital software on Windows) or she shouldn't be running on the Windows platform (Mac or Linux can be more granular when running programs as an Administrator).

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    36. Re:The Woman by mspohr · · Score: 1
      Noooo... you can (and should) lock Linux down to keep users from running anything you don't specifically install and authorize.

      Here is one way to lock down Linux.

      You can prevent users from running executable programs even in their own user directory and then whitelist the programs that they are authorized to run.

      Whitelist is actually fairly easy. Use the same approach that Ubuntu and many other distros use. Create a group for a particular program or group of programs, set the group of the executable to that and then add users to that group if you want them to be able to access it. This is how access to sudo, printers and a whole host of other things are done on Ubuntu (and other distros).

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    37. Re:The Woman by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Running random executables downloaded from the Internet IS the issue. In Linux, you can prevent that from happening and at the same time allow people to run 'authorized' executables.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    38. Re:The Woman by mspohr · · Score: 1

      You can do all of these things in a browser in Linux and your browser and OS are not subject to malware.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    39. Re:The Woman by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      Yeah... Wire cutters. :)

      People that open exe attachments on hospital computers shouldn't be allowed on the Internet.

    40. Re:The Woman by Kuroji · · Score: 1

      My question is... why is it necessary at all for everyone at a hospital to have internet access, then? If it's part of the job then the hospital can eat the costs for keeping security intact. I can't imagine why 99% of the staff should need the internet, though, unless it's just for use during downtime, in which case it is NOT necessary for them to have internet access.

    41. Re:The Woman by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      "Hi, doctor? I read this article about your hospital on slashdot.org, and I'm worried about whether I should continue giving you my medical vouchers, or if I should take my money to another hospital? What's that? Oh, you don't have the internet in a big place like that? When I've had it for years and it tells me really important stuff like not to use your hospital because it's not safe? OK, I think I'll try the other hospital then. Bye." ;)

    42. Re:The Woman by berzerke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also the admin needs to get fired too, he is not doing his job!

      So many attempts to blame the admin, without knowing the circumstances. In the real world, security costs money. Money is limited. Security "interferes" with work. Interfering with work too much won't be tolerated by the higher ups. I've seen it multiple times. If security interferes with some new wiz-bang software that management wants, then the security goes. An admin that refuses get fired. For those that don't work in IT, you'd be surprised how many security decisions are made by people not qualified to make such decisions.

      Let me give you two real-life examples. I worked as the IT head at a medical clinic. Some medical billing software was leased with my knowledge and it came with it's own AIX server. The root password was blank and it had to be connected to the rest of the LAN. I was not allowed to touch the machine by my boss's boss. Later on, she had the bright idea of allowing remote access. I objected in writing, backed by my boss. Objection overruled. Within a week, the server was rooted. It took the company who owned the server 3 months to figure out it wasn't a hardware issue, despite my warnings on the first day of trouble.

      Second, more recent example, from just two weeks ago. I was ordered to connect an XP SP2 machine (not under my control) directly to the Internet AND the internal LAN. I was not allowed to filter any traffic (I tried and was ordered to stop) or purchase/install any additional hardware (no approval), including wiring. It's a VOIP server and the company higher ups what to be able to have a company phone anywhere. A port scan shows Windows Firewall is disabled, and I have no idea if there is at least any AV software (not allowed to touch it). Remember, I'm under orders to give it unfettered Internet and LAN access, at the same time. Secure? No. But I'm under direct orders to do it this way. At this point, the best I can think to do is put my objections in writing so I have a CYA paper trail (already done).

    43. Re:The Woman by berzerke · · Score: 1

      What? Any user can set something executable and run it in a Unix system. It'll just run with the privileges of the user, which in this case is more than enough.

      Of course, there is always privilege escalation, but at least that's another hurdle.

    44. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really suprised that you don't have some sort of legal counsel on retainer. Once the boss objects, you voice concern to counsel. But I understand that may impact your job and get you fired. Truly this is what compliance is all about - limiting liability. I think that IT needs to work closer w/ the legal people, as the lawyers are very good at putting costs on liability in a way that management understands. Management does not understand what VOIP means or what a root password "is" in terms of liability if either item is insecure. Explain the impact to your company's legal brain and the rest will follow...

    45. Re:The Woman by Reece400 · · Score: 1

      Okay then, what's happening to the people that mandated that general internet access be availble on a PC full of patient records?

    46. Re:The Woman by Angstroem · · Score: 1

      That customer is lost anyway as you can't treat her right, no matter what you do...

      But to come back to technical issues, your example is flawed, because

      • You don't need unlimited internet access for sending/receiving eMail.
      • Private network access is not required at work, therefore you don't even need access to any freemailers.
      • There's the concept of intranet. You don't need to intermingle intra- and internet. Set up two networks with very, very, very strict passing rules, if, for whatever reason, you need to access them from each other.
    47. Re:The Woman by penthouseplayah · · Score: 1

      My question is... why is it necessary at all for everyone at a hospital to have internet access?

      Well, it is necessary for doctors and nurses to have acces to medical instructions, phone catalog, google, pubmed to keep workflow fast.
      This is not a question about internet access or not, it's a question about lockdown of computers, firewall.

    48. Re:The Woman by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      I hate to burst your bubble, but the admin's job is to stand up to those who DON'T know , especially his superiors. When something is amiss, and he sees what it it, it's his job to say "Wait a minute guys, I know you want to cut corners, but I have proof now, that all your credit cards have been stolen or frauded"...would that get their attention....it's all on how your present the idea, and how important you make it look.

      No, sorry, I am not a yes man, I develop software, and it is the engineer's job to stand up for quality control. His reputation is on the line, this is what is severely taught in school...that when you are at that level, you not only have your community to protect, but your own reputation, jobs are a dime a dozen....quality isn't.

      You go ahead and be a yes man, and just keep getting screwed in the ass, when the sh*t hits the fan, and the bosses come to you wondering why you didn't put up a bigger fight, but I sure won't be there for that mess!

    49. Re:The Woman by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      That is an excellent idea, if I ever heard one! ...I might just do that....today in fact!

    50. Re:The Woman by chefshoemaker · · Score: 1

      Why would every person need 2 computers? Where I work, with highly sensitve personal data, we have computers in a seperate room that are for personal email/internet use. These machines are not conneted to the internal network for just this reason. All work machines are restricted from accessing webmail and internet access is highly regulated based on job requirements.

    51. Re:The Woman by jamstar7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hate to burst your bubble, but the admin's job is to stand up to those who DON'T know , especially his superiors. When something is amiss, and he sees what it it, it's his job to say "Wait a minute guys, I know you want to cut corners, but I have proof now, that all your credit cards have been stolen or frauded"...would that get their attention....it's all on how your present the idea, and how important you make it look.

      It's the Golden Rule. "He who has the gold makes the rules." I've had gigs where when I stood up to management ("Look, giving everybody admin access on the main database server is a Bad Idea, and here's why...") and lost the contract. Why some PHB on the board of directors needs admin access to servers is beyond me, must be a control freak issue.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    52. Re:The Woman by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Given how badly IT has been run at some place I have worked, I would say lots of organisations cannot identify technical incompetence.

      Some organisations I've done things for suffered from "Everybody but ME" syndrome, i.e., lockdown EVERYBODY but ME. Then they wonder why it hits them in the ass when they get nailed by 20 zillion viruses when they hit those Indonesian plant porn pages...

      It's not that they can't identify incompetence, it's more that they don't believe they themselves need restraint.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    53. Re:The Woman by jamstar7 · · Score: 2, Informative

      What? Any user can set something executable and run it in a Unix system. It'll just run with the privileges of the user, which in this case is more than enough.

      Not necessarily. Some system utilities, for example, fsck, can only be run in root. If the user isn't part of the suid users group and started an su session, they can't run it.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    54. Re:The Woman by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I worked in IT for a hospital for 5 years. Machines that could access patient information were on a physically different network than machines that could access the internet.

      Any patient information being sent off site (for billing or lab work, etc..) was done along dedicated lines.

    55. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a hospital no less.

      What happened to the geek who setup the transparent web proxy that allowed that?

      how would it know what's going through an https session?

    56. Re:The Woman by berzerke · · Score: 1

      Should be without my knowledge on the AIX.

    57. Re:The Woman by berzerke · · Score: 1

      Good thought, but even then if your boss thinks you go behind his or back, expect to find yourself fired real soon. In this economy, labor is real cheap, and easily replaced.

    58. Re:The Woman by Ironica · · Score: 1

      A home/ISP virus scanner probably have to let those through, but not a corporate one. You can try sending me a passworded zip, it won't get through as the scanner will reject it.

      Whereas where I work, we have a policy that we must password-protect any files we email that have clients' information in them. Why? Because we're providing health care, and have to comply with HIPAA.

      So if you've got a 66,000-row CSV file to get from one person to another, you pretty much have to do a password-protected ZIP.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    59. Re:The Woman by Ironica · · Score: 1

      Because, for smaller hospitals, it's not feasible to have the practice management and (if available) EHR tools served locally. They're hosted by outside companies and accessed via the Internet.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    60. Re:The Woman by Ironica · · Score: 1

      How long ago was that? The billing, labs, pharmacy, etc. systems use standard internet connections now (with SSL encryption) for the most part. There's some stuff that's implemented via VPN, but a lot that isn't.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    61. Re:The Woman by Ironica · · Score: 1

      In a hospital no less.

      What happened to the geek who setup the transparent web proxy that allowed that?

      how would it know what's going through an https session?

      Yahoo Mail uses https?

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    62. Re:The Woman by Ironica · · Score: 1

      She should get fired for doing her private stuff on a hospital computer that ended up being compromised,

      She should, *IF* it was a violation of her employer's policies. Some work environments allow personal use on personal time, and you can't fire someone for doing that if you don't have a rule against it.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    63. Re:The Woman by oatworm · · Score: 1

      You can do that in Windows, too. You just have to use software restrictions policies. They've been around in some form since at least Windows XP.

    64. Re:The Woman by _tognus · · Score: 1

      Why would you need to provide two machines per person? Just set up a hot desk area that's as big as it needs to be.

    65. Re:The Woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily - for a system required to handle confidential information, I would put the users under an SELinux context that only allows the required operations.

    66. Re:The Woman by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Er, sudouser group. Guess that's what I get for posting before coffee...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    67. Re:The Woman by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      My question is... why is it necessary at all for everyone at a hospital to have internet access, then?

      At hospitals, physicians get whatever they want. People vying for power try to get as much as they can like the physicians. Security is way down on the priorities list.

      Oh, did you mean practical reasons related to providing healthcare? Silly rabbit.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    68. Re:The Woman by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Because, for smaller hospitals, it's not feasible to have the practice management and (if available) EHR tools served locally. They're hosted by outside companies and accessed via the Internet.

      So limit access to those. There's still no reason to allow everything. And even less reason to allow random workers to install spyware or any other kind of software.

    69. Re:The Woman by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      She should get fired for doing her private stuff on a hospital computer that ended up being compromised,

      She should, *IF* it was a violation of her employer's policies. Some work environments allow personal use on personal time, and you can't fire someone for doing that if you don't have a rule against it.

      Actually, one of our subcontractors has specific rules authorizing this. Their employees can mark that they're using the PC (or web, actually) for personal purposes for up to 30 minutes per day. When this time is active, the access controls which block non-work-related sites, such as youtube, are disabled for them. The other firewall duties and anti-malware functions remain in operation. The time is apparently logged and capped, and the 30 minutes can be taken in increments through the day, but unused time is not carried forward to the next day.
      It seems a fairly enlightened approach, without too much potential for abuse.

      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?

      My wife is a geek - we both have engineering PhDs. Our kids seem to have inherited this disability, too...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    70. Re:The Woman by minstrelmike · · Score: 0

      Admins are NOT in charge. See Terry Childs

  3. HIPAA - SHMIPAA by C18H27NO3+ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wonder how it came to be that one would be permitted to check web-based email in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department?
    This incident could very well be the least of their problems for all they know.
    The fact that it was able to install and send screenshots willy-nilly to Graham and who-knows-where-else is a HIPAA nightmare.


    Just for grins I went looking through their employment opportunities to see if any IT jobs opened up recently and stumbled upon this:
    (Not relevant to this thread but interesting, nonetheless

    Nicotine-free hiring policy
    Because itâ(TM)s important for healthcare providers to promote a healthy environment and lifestyle, Akron Childrenâ(TM)s Hospital has a nicotine-free hiring policy.
    Newly hired employees are tested for nicotine as part of a pre-employment panel of medical tests.
    Akron Childrenâ(TM)s will not hire applicants who test positive for nicotine use.
    If you test positive for nicotine, the offer of employment made to you will be rescinded.
    If after 90 days you successfully quit using nicotine, you may reapply for employment.

    1. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Cryacin · · Score: 1
      Go the hippocritical oath!

      Nicotine-free hiring policy Because itÃ(TM)s important for healthcare providers to promote a healthy environment and lifestyle, Akron ChildrenÃ(TM)s Hospital has a nicotine-free hiring policy. Newly hired employees are tested for nicotine as part of a pre-employment panel of medical tests. Akron ChildrenÃ(TM)s will not hire applicants who test positive for nicotine use. If you test positive for nicotine, the offer of employment made to you will be rescinded. If after 90 days you successfully quit using nicotine, you may reapply for employment.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by pz · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wonder how it came to be that one would be permitted to check web-based email in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department?

      This incident could very well be the least of their problems for all they know.

      The fact that it was able to install and send screenshots willy-nilly to Graham and who-knows-where-else is a HIPAA nightmare.

      Indeed, it gives one great pause since that computer *should* have been running anti-virus software to check each download and executable as it was opened, and, presumably, would have caught this installation. Through professional contacts, I'm passingly familiar with the IT environment in a Big University Hospital and the hoops that my colleagues have to jump through to put a PC on the hospital network are near onerous. Those machines are sterile, or as close to sterile as humanly possible.

      Given this transgression and their draconian nicotine policy (which surely must be illegal), the moral of the story is clear: do not, under any circumstances, seek treatment at Akron Children's Hospital.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    3. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Carthag · · Score: 1

      Don't be so harsh on the horses man, they haven't done anything to us.

    4. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I agree but when I broke my arm my xrays were delayed by virus problems. Then they sent my xrays to me on a CD and it came with handy DLL files for processing the data. Fortunately for me gimp got the libraries it needed from the ubuntu repositories.

    5. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Through professional contacts, I'm passingly familiar with the IT environment in a Big University Hospital and the hoops that my colleagues have to jump through to put a PC on the hospital network are near onerous.

      What cheap-shit dictionary did you look up onerous in?

      Through contact only with one of my doctors, I know how sloppy some can be. While waiting for him, I read the use policy on the login screen. I told him I thought it was pretty thorough -- see only records for patients for whom you have medical responsibility -- no peeking at: celebrity patients, friends, relatives, even family. Abuse to be monitored and dealt with.

      His answer? -- Yeah, but lots of people do anyway and nothing happens.

    6. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Mr.+Roadkill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Newly hired employees are tested for nicotine as part of a pre-employment panel of medical tests.

      That'll be interesting in the future - discrimination on the grounds of disability or medical condition, perhaps?

      There's some evidence that nicotine delivered by patch can help with things like parkinsons, alzheimers, depressive conditions, ADD and a whole lot of other things. Various native peoples have ingested tobacco to treat constipation and wom infestations, and I see no reason why people using it exclusively as a herbal remedy for these or other conditions should be penalised. I'm a non-smoker and won't take it up - I think it's disgusting - but if nicotine patches were safe and effective and cheap when compared with other medication I'd use them and take my prospective employers to court if need be. I'd also be the guy passing around the poppseed bagels, fwiw...

    7. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by LordAndrewSama · · Score: 1

      No, computers that have internet access for the fun and happiness of workers should be on a separate network from computers used for important medical stuphz. I would say cumputers used for important medical stuphz shouldn't be able to access the internet, but hey, they might need to hit a database in somewhere for symptoms or I don't know, but damn, it sure as hell shouldn't be allowed to go to hotmail or any other random website, that's what separate public access terminals should be for.

    8. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by coaxial · · Score: 1

      I wonder how it came to be that one would be permitted to check web-based email in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department?

      And exactly why wouldn't be allowed? It's not like the computer is sitting in the surgery theater. Especially given that arbitrary restrictions of computer usage negatively impact productivity.

      This incident could very well be the least of their problems for all they know.

      I fail to see what you're implying. Elaborate.

    9. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

      Nicotine-free hiring policy Because itâ(TM)s important for healthcare providers to promote a healthy environment and lifestyle, Akron Childrenâ(TM)s Hospital has a nicotine-free hiring policy. Newly hired employees are tested for nicotine as part of a pre-employment panel of medical tests. Akron Childrenâ(TM)s will not hire applicants who test positive for nicotine use. If you test positive for nicotine, the offer of employment made to you will be rescinded. If after 90 days you successfully quit using nicotine, you may reapply for employment.

      Wow, that's shocking in so many ways. Excluding potentially talented employees, discrimination on questionable legal grounds, and so on. The HR folks are just as sharp as the IT folks, it appears. (I write as an HR management consultant and former smoker, so I do know something about this.)

      --
      The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
    10. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by shentino · · Score: 1

      At Will Employment

    11. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      My first tought was : and what charges will the woman and the hospital face for making this possible at all ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    12. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by mcvos · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wonder how it came to be that one would be permitted to check web-based email in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department?

      And exactly why wouldn't be allowed? It's not like the computer is sitting in the surgery theater.

      It's connected to sensitive hospital records. That's more than enough reason to lock it down and not allow web browsing or the execution of arbitrary programs.

    13. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Surely that would be against the discrimination laws in most civilised countries.

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    14. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      I wonder how it came to be that one would be permitted to check web-based email in the hospital's pediatric cardiac surgery department?

      You mean like gmail, or even hotmail? Get real. Half the world has these or a yahoo address. Telling people they can't access those would be like saying they can't use email at all. Unless the hospital is prepared to provide its own email servers and address and spam filtering and etc, etc, webmail IS a valid substitute for employee email.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    15. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      You are correct as far as it goes, but there is no reason they need to allow unfettered internet access on all machines. Any machine connected to medical records should have been locked down. She should have only been able to connect to her webmail account from a machine to which she needed a login and password to access and was wiped clean after every logout. I don't hold her responsible, but the hospital IT is at least guilty of gross incompetence (assuming this policy wasn't forced on them by penny pinching management, in which case the blame rises a couple of notches.)

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    16. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a Canadian equivalent to HIPAA called PIPEDA. Same shit, different color. Our corporate firewall attempts to block many sites but never a webmail provider, and many people get around the firewall with a proxy anyhow.

    17. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That database should be on the secure network.

      If it's in a different part of the country, there are secure connections to solve that problem. Even ever the internet. Look up IPSEC.

    18. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever for? It's pretty much the same as having a policy of not hiring alcoholics or other drug abusers.
      Smoking is probably the most intrusive to bystanders drug habit there is. Chewing tobacco not so much, but for the fact that the people using it seem to think they have the right to spit out their used wads all over the floor/walls/ceiling.

    19. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by neurogeneticist · · Score: 5, Informative

      I actually am a physician, and work at a hospital with electronic records. We do not have, nor have I ever worked at a hospital the does have, an independent set of computers with medical records, separate from ones to use for other purposes. The work-flow is just not feasible with such a system, which would require us to look things up on one computer while referencing and typing notes into another one, while dozens of other people walk around the unit trying to do the same thing.

      If you really want your mind blown, many electronic medical record systems run through internet browsers, and are not compatible with anything other than IE.

      Oh, and I can access it from home with an RSA key if Clean-client thinks my machine looks OK.

      Locking down sounds good to some of you, but it would break the workflow in a medical system that is already operating near the breaking point.

    20. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice - wonder if you can test positive for nicotine via second-hand smoke.

    21. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, we have two computers at everyone's desk? One for general internet use - getting insurance information from Insurance companies, sending mandatory reports to the CDC, NIH, CMS, FDA and so on, and another computer sitting right next to it on a different VLAN for accessing clinical information? Yes, every hospital can afford to double its expenditure on infrastructure. That will keep the price of healthcare down. And I should just have a bunch of flash drives so that users can transfer files from the internal clinical network/computers to the external-facing one? And those flash drives won't get lost either.

      Here is the problem:
      Medical software developers, as a whole, do not security, nor do they like Open Source operating systems like Linux. Why?
      Security gets in the way of product development. It takes more time and resources to write secure code, and hey, buddy we have a deadline to meet get the darn product out the door!

      Security is confusing and "time wasting" to end users, and nobody likes it and won't buy prodcuts that are too hard to use.

      Linux and other FOSS development platforms are verbotten as far as medical software developers go - they are the business of making MONEY, not giving stuff away. And yes, I know that the two are not mutually exclusive, but most of the company management that call the shots for medical software vendors don't even want to take the risk. Keep the code locked down and secret, and the customer will be forced to come back to us for support, and as a bonus they will not see what a crappy job we did putting this product together.

      Without laws forbidding the use of non-open source software in the medical industry, stories like this one will be all to horrifyingly common.

    22. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Also, if you believe the anti-smoking propaganda (disclaimer, I call all things propaganda), it's not the nicotine that is the main issue, but all the other crap that Big Tobacco puts into their death sticks. That, coupled with the information from your post, makes testing simply for nicotine bunk.

    23. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Wrong. When the body breaks down nicotine it produces free radicals. Nicotine itself is carcinogenic. As a result it is not a suitable treatment for anything but late-onset mental illness or similar; who cares if you get cancer? It's better than being a nutbag, and your clock is almost run out anyway.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I see nothing critical of hippos in that!

    25. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Unless the hospital is prepared to provide its own email servers and address and spam filtering and etc, etc, webmail IS a valid substitute for employee email.

      Every hospital should be doing this, if for no reason other than security and confidentiality.

      No employee at a hospital should be spending time on their personal email. While you are there, you need to concentrate on your job. If someone in your life has an emergency, they can call 9-1-1; you'll see them shortly. Live in the moment — lives depend on it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    26. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If you really want your mind blown, many electronic medical record systems run through internet browsers, and are not compatible with anything other than IE.

      Oh, and I can access it from home with an RSA key if Clean-client thinks my machine looks OK.

      Locking down sounds good to some of you, but it would break the workflow in a medical system that is already operating near the breaking point.

      Sounds to me like it's already broken. The whole system should be re-engineered; it is terribly flawed.

    27. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      Are you trying to be serious or just trolling?

      "Get real. Half the world has these or a yahoo address. Telling people they can't access those would be like saying they can't use email at all."

      Well, it would be more or less like telling people they shouldn't use company assets for personal issues. Doesn't seem too unfair to me.

      "Unless the hospital is prepared to provide its own email servers and address and spam filtering and etc, etc,"

      How much do you think it takes running your own mail servers? You say it as if you think is something abusive. HINT: running your own corporate mailservers/antivirus/antispam takes real neglegible costs, specially if due to your needs you already have IT personnel and moreso on a hospital where operational costs tend to be hugh.

      "webmail IS a valid substitute for employee email."

      Even if we accept this, what's the relationship between "this company's corporate webmail service" and "webmail access to your personal account on god knows which crappy provider"?

    28. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "So, we have two computers at everyone's desk?"

      What's a "computer" anyway? You seem to be one of those that really think that "the computer" is the keyboard and the screen taking real state from their table. It is not.

      "One for general internet use - getting insurance information from Insurance companies, sending mandatory reports to the CDC, NIH, CMS, FDA and so on, and another computer sitting right next to it on a different VLAN for accessing clinical information?"

      1) The ones working on clinical information are not the ones working on administrative tasks.
      2) The screen and keyboard is *not* the computer; there's no problem working on a terminal session from a protected network to access data and working on a different one as needed to relay trimmed down postprocessed info as needed. It can be made so transparent for the end user she never would know what's happening.
      3) Anyway there's *zero* chances that any of the work requirements you talk about requires access but to known in advance end points, so open Internet access is way beyond needed in any case.

      "Medical software developers, as a whole, do not security [...] It takes more time and resources"

      Developers, as any provider just go wherever the market wants them so the true point is that Hospitals don't want security. As harsh as it sounds.

      Which in turn begs the question: OK, probably that guy is guilty and he deserves his sentence. But now, what about the hospital and its policies obviously waaaaaay down due diligence? What the guy did was wrong; what the hospital allowed to happen is much, much worse; by orders of magnitude. Pitifully I won't hold my breath waiting for a multimillion exemplary fine against the hospital so others will take the issue more seriously.

    29. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I actually am a physician [...] The work-flow is just not feasible with such a system"

      Do I tell you what's the best cure for illness X or that some given diagnostic machine is too expensive and that I'd manage to do it cheaper? Not.

      Do you know why? Because I'm not a physician; you are the physician.

      Then, please, disallow yourself to tell me how should I do my job because you know as much about it as I know about yours.

      "Locking down sounds good to some of you, but it would break the workflow in a medical system"

      Thinking you know what you are talking about sounds good to you, but it only shows you take yourself too high for your own safety.

      On a side note, no, I'm not telling what your workflow should be nor I'm implying the proper technical solution to provide both effiency to your job and enough security for the nature of your job is the one you think it is and therefor unsuitable.

    30. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by neurogeneticist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Did I step on your dog or something? Previous posters have suggested that there should be a separate systems for EMR software and everything else. I said that wouldn't work very well in the current system, one in which I spend over 100 hours per week. As the primary target end-user for the EMR system, I think I am qualified to at least render an opinion on it. Nowhere in my post did I presume to tell you how to do your job, whatever that happens to be. Perhaps "news for nerds" should be amended to "news for sysadmins and software designers, who may or may not be nerds at all, but who certainly have disinclination towards anyone who makes a comment even tangentially related to their profession." Then at least I'll know to take my comments elsewhere.

    31. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also swedish snus and nasal snuff (European style) that are a lot safer than smoking. No fire , no cancer causing smoke and no tar. These products are not fermented and hence a lot safer than American dip and snuff.

      In fact they are quite a lot cheaper ,and tastier than patches. As an almost ex-smoker i _would_ recommend them to anyone with those afflictions as an immensely better alternative to smoking. Some even claim they are safer than patches , it could be , but the main reason i use them is because i can _enjoy_ them , and they're still cheaper than either patch or gum. Hell snus is used the same way nicotine gum is used , it's just a lot easier to make :).

      I know a few people that actually use it for ADD, and while i have not been diagnosed with it i can certainly concentrate better with a healthy dose of nicotine flowing through my blood , it is a stimulant after all. Some studies even show it increases memory. Ask any smoking student how their nicotine intake increases during finals.

    32. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by pegasustonans · · Score: 1

      Locking down sounds good to some of you, but it would break the workflow in a medical system that is already operating near the breaking point.

      No, locking down does not sound "good." It sounds sane.

      Leaving sensitive medical and personal records blatantly open to those with malicious intent sounds rather the opposite of sane.

      --
      And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
    33. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually am a physician, and work at a hospital with electronic records. We do not have, nor have I ever worked at a hospital the does have, an independent set of computers with medical records, separate from ones to use for other purposes. The work-flow is just not feasible with such a system, which would require us to look things up on one computer while referencing and typing notes into another one, while dozens of other people walk around the unit trying to do the same thing.

      I'd like to understand more about your workflow.

      How did you manage to do your work back when:
        a) medical records were on paper or on a mainframe with dedicated terminals or
        b) Google and whatever databases you're searching didn't exist yet?
      You definitely weren't able to cut and paste or quickly switch between screens back then.

      I don't see why you need complete, simultaneous access to the open Internet or non-work related systems from the same work terminals that have access to patient data and/or medical equipment. Even access to third-party Internet applications can be over a limited VPN or whitelisted at a restrictive proxy or firewall system.

    34. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      I'm a physician too. Don't bother, this is their equivalent of M&M - no matter what was done, some other guy is going to pipe in and say that the only really safe thing to do was to have the computer containing medical records buried in a safe in the basement accessible only by selling off your firstborn. Like the guy upthread who suggested things like 5 min clin consult and uptodate should be privately networked...

      To the IT types: if you make it really hard, people will ignore your carefully crafted systems and do it all on paper or some other method that is easy.

    35. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by a1ok · · Score: 1

      Not disputing your point about other additives being the main problem - I don't smoke, and neither do I know much about cigarette carcinogens - but if
      1) practically all cigarettes contain nicotine
      2) non-cigarette use of nicotine is extremely rare
      3) it is far easier to test for than whatever actual crap is there in the cig.

      then it still makes sense imho to test for nicotine as a simpler way to indirectly test for smoking.

    36. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Ykant · · Score: 1

      A decently competent IT department should be able to come up with several different ideas that would, if implemented, be a tenable solution to this issue without impacting the medical staff's workflow. The response you got from the grandparent post is probably the result of a mind that has been blown by the story. There are a number of things fundamentally wrong with whatever process that allowed the situation to even be possible.

      --
      Spelling, grammar, punctuation? We need something that checks logic.
    37. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by sjames · · Score: 1

      The part that could really get them hurt is that in several cultures tobacco is used for religious purposes.

    38. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Ironica · · Score: 1

      I'd like to understand more about your workflow.

      How did you manage to do your work back when:

        a) medical records were on paper or on a mainframe with dedicated terminals or

        b) Google and whatever databases you're searching didn't exist yet?

      I can't speak for the PP, but in general:

      - Hospitals and some large outpatient offices spent (spend) a TON on transcription of voice-recorded notes into machine-readable text

      - Doctors saw (see) fewer patients per day, without being able to spend more time with them

      - The body of medical knowledge was smaller, with more of it personally known to the physician, and with changes happening with less frequency. The nature of communication in the Internet era also means that doctors have the ability to stay on top of the latest literature, knowing that this or that lab result should be interpreted differently according to a new study, or that this symptom constellation may be indicative of this other previously-underdiagnosed condition. The entire approach toward diagnosis is evolving, from a knowledge of symptoms and their causes, to a research skill. At the same time, we remain as litigious as ever, and patients are also able to search for the same information, which means that if they find something that the doctor "should have," they may sue for malpractice. And win. And quite possibly *should* win... if the information is out there, and available enough that even the patient found it, shouldn't the doctor be able to?

      The expectations of medical practice have evolved with technology. The offices that are still using paper charts are struggling to keep up, and will mostly go by the wayside by 2014. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    39. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's Snus , dip , chew , nasal snuff ,pipe , hookah , e-cigarette , nicotine gum and patch. Aside from the last two , they're all more common than you might think. Furthermore eggplant and a few other vegetables contain enough nicotine that it _will_ show on drug testes.

    40. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Previous posters have suggested that there should be a separate systems for EMR software and everything else. I said that wouldn't work very well"

      And I tell you -again, you don't know what are you talking about. I'll try to put it down in your own terms.

      There's a basic misunderstand among general population about what a comma is in medical terms. While on medical speech a level one comma*1 may merely mean you are drunk if you tell somebody without medical training about comma they will understand you must be talking about somebody with a foot on the grave -and they might even mock at you: "comma? that doctor didn't recognize his ass from his face, Joe was just death-drunk!". You understand otherwise because you are a trained physician.

      Now, you are falling in the same mistake: just because you recognize the words it doesn't mean you know what their technical meaning is. I know what a lancet is and that doesn't make me a surgeon; you know what a PC is and that doesn't make you a systems architect. What a trained IT professional mean for "separate systems" is not what you understand for "separate systems" -it might requiere separate keyboard/screen sets or not; it might requiere physically segregated network connections or not. The interactions, problems, ballances, etc. you see on IT systems you use are not the interactions, problems, ballances, etc. the IT professional is aware and needs to take care of.

      It is not that you step on my dog's tail. Surely you have had patients that go to you trying to impose their own diagnostic, prognosis and treatment. Maybe the way you affront them is not exactly the same I take now, maybe because they are both patients and clients, you are face to face with them or you are just more polite than me but surely the end point is the same: "wait a minute sir, who's the doctor here?"

      "I think I am qualified to at least render an opinion on it."

      Yes, surely you are. Even more: you should be allowed to express your opinion and to put in the table your needs in order for them to be taken into consideration just as much as your patients are entitled to render their opinion about how they feel and what do they think about the proposed treatment. What you are not entitled to is thinking you know what's good or bad technically-wise just because you happen to sit in front of a computer from time to time and that's something that woefully happens just to frecuently as this very news is a clear example of.

      You have a very easy path to understand on which terms your relationship with IT should be for your best benefit since it's basically the same as the one between your patients and you.

      *1 I don't know if that's USA medical jargon, it's just a direct translation of how it's known in Spanish.

    41. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a local ambulance company, and our network is set up as follows:

      Our reporting software is installed on the local PCs. Everything having to do with reports and patient data is done solely on the internal network.

      In order to access the Internet or Email (company-only), you need to connect to a Terminal Services server on the network. The only Internet-accessible applications are Microsoft Outlook (pre-configured for the company Exchange server and locked down) and Internet Explorer, which are routed through another proxy (settings are hidden) for Internet access so that even if you are somehow able to download malicious software, it will not be able to access the Internet.

      We've been running this setup for four years now and haven't run into a single problem because it just isn't possible.

    42. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks, that helps. What you point out though is a need for doctor access to patient records and doctor access to the internet, but not necessarily simultaneously from the same terminal, virtual machine, or other sandbox. Patient data should be prevented from flowing to or accessed by parts of systems connected to the internet.

    43. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Please educate yourself and come back when you feel ready for calm discussion.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    44. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Ironica · · Score: 1

      Thanks, that helps. What you point out though is a need for doctor access to patient records and doctor access to the internet, but not necessarily simultaneously from the same terminal, virtual machine, or other sandbox. Patient data should be prevented from flowing to or accessed by parts of systems connected to the internet.

      Except that patient data is frequently gained from the internet as well. Except in large hospitals which can support very large IT departments, most EHR and practice management systems are hosted at third-party sites accessed via an Internet connection. Many don't even use a VPN, just SSL encryption.

      So you're talking about having two separate machines, connected to the Internet in different ways. You're rapidly approaching infeasibility for a small-to-medium practice or even hospital.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    45. Re:HIPAA - SHMIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can buy custom trojans/spyware and stuff relatively cheaply, I think in the hundreds of $ range or maybe a couple of thousand at the most, it was mentioned on a piece the BBC's Digital Planet did on botnets, where they actually went ahead and purchased a botnet. I think part of the point of buying custom malware was to get past virus scanners, so it could be what this guy did.

  4. Don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this not HER problem? She opened the e-mail that installed the malware on a hospital computer. If I infected computers at work, it'd be on me, not whoever sent me the virus.

    1. Re:Don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this not HER problem? She opened the e-mail that installed the malware on a hospital computer. If I infected computers at work, it'd be on me, not whoever sent me the virus.

      So if I was to mail you a package with three sticks of dynamite, a blasting cap, and had it rigged to blow up when you opened it... it'd be your fault for getting blown up?

    2. Re:Don't get it... by booyabazooka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if I was to mail you a package with three sticks of dynamite, a blasting cap, and had it rigged to blow up when you opened it... it'd be your fault for getting blown up?

      Almost a good analogy, except that mail bombs are not sent as frequently as malicious emails. If a significant portion of packages contained explosives, then yes, we probably would hold recipients accountable for not taking appropriate precautions when opening their mail.

    3. Re:Don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course. Both the recipient and sender of the mail bomb are at fault.

    4. Re:Don't get it... by gnud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No.

      If you mailed me a package with a cover letter saying "attach the fuse so and so, and you can see FUNNY KITTENS", and I did, THAT would be just as much my fault.

      And since she ran the attachment, she's at fault too. In theory, his email account could have been taken over by bad bad men, who spammed evil viruseses to all his contacts. In that case, it would have been purely her fault (not his).

    5. Re:Don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's still a horrible analogy. To be a BETTER analogy and still along the same lines, how about you disguise the dynamite, very convincingly, as fuzzy kittens and fool the recipient into thinking that activating the blasting cap would make the kittens act funny. That's a little bit more along the lines of a trojan. You may know something is a little odd, since you're getting something of value unexpectedly, but your curiosity is aroused and your knowledge too limited to see through the ruse.

    6. Re:Don't get it... by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      So if I was to mail you a package with three sticks of dynamite, a blasting cap, and had it rigged to blow up when you opened it... it'd be your fault for getting blown up?

      Yes but that is something that is lethal... This while dangerous hasnt directly killed anyone involved. It'd be more like sending someone a bag of dog shit and stinking up their house when they open it. It can eventually go away but you'll always remember what happened.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    7. Re:Don't get it... by bcmm · · Score: 1

      It's more like sending someone a bag of dog shit, and that someone is an idiot, who eats the dog shit. Then blames you.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    8. Re:Don't get it... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, if I'd get mail from random strangers every day and a good portion of those contain mail bombs, then yes, I'd probably only have to blame myself if it goes off in my face.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:Don't get it... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      then yes, we probably would hold recipients accountable for not taking appropriate precautions when opening their mail.

      They might get in trouble with their work if their work has trained their employees to do this (we don't know if that's the case). But it would never be a criminal offence - and we would still be charge the guy responsible.

      The guy's an idiot. Maybe he doesn't deserve years in prison, but he's stupid to even try such a thing. I don't understand why this is a "lesson" to geeks, as TFS suggests - as a geek, the idea of using technology to invade privacy is the sort of thing I would oppose on principle.

  5. Stereotype much? by CarpetShark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let this be a lesson to all the broken-hearted geeks out there.

    Uhh, we're not all psycho-privacy-invaders with no ability to let go and move on, you insensitive clod.

    1. Re:Stereotype much? by WarJolt · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey!!! speak for yourself.

    2. Re:Stereotype much? by RuBLed · · Score: 3, Funny

      Let this be a lesson to all the broken-hearted geeks out there.

      Geeks create and/or build their own keyloggers from code so we would be sure that the chances it would be detected are low and that we are the only ones who would see it.

      Also there is no such thing as a broken-hearted geek. Natalie Portman is still alive.

    3. Re:Stereotype much? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed - if anything, if we're going to stereotype, I'd argue that geeks are more likely to value privacy, at least when it comes to technology, and they ought to be more likely to be aware of the consequences of these sorts of things.

    4. Re:Stereotype much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And we can always whip up a batch of hot grits.

    5. Re:Stereotype much? by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Also there is no such thing as a broken-hearted geek

      Yes there is.

  6. Who is really at fault? by 89cents · · Score: 5, Insightful
    a) The man for emailing the spyware?

    b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

    c) Yahoo for not blocking it?

    d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed.

    e) Some combination of the above?

    1. Re:Who is really at fault? by wordsnyc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed.

      Bingo. They failed to take steps a reasonably prudent person would have taken to protect patient confidentiality under Federal law. Spyware installation via email is not exactly news.

      --
      Sent from the iPad I found in your car.
    2. Re:Who is really at fault? by war4peace · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming all of the above, but it could as well be any.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    3. Re:Who is really at fault? by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      The man is criminally liable for sending the e-mail and infecting computers.

      The hospital is at fault for releasing the documents.

      Yahoo doesn't claim to block ALL threats. Yahoo is fine.

      In order to find the woman at fault you would have to prove she is criminally negligent.

      I say A and D are in trouble, but I bet you B gets fired.

    4. Re:Who is really at fault? by pz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a) The man for emailing the spyware?

      Yes, for causing spyware to be installed. Electronic trespassing. Theft of HIPPA-regulated information. Stalking.

      b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

      Yes, for abject stupidity.

      c) Yahoo for not blocking it?

      Probably not.

      d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed.

      Yes, for IT incompetence. But they are also liable for some serious charges for violation of HIPPA regulations. It's entirely possible they will lose all Federal support. Breaching HIPPA is a big deal.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    5. Re:Who is really at fault? by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a) The man for emailing the spyware?

      b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

      Is this like that question in ethics class where we had to decide who was the most moral, a question seemingly designed to start fights? I'm no good at those - I say the goon at the end, but then people call me horrible.

      Explanation in case it's not as universal as I thought....

      A woman has to get to her wedding, but the only way is to ride with the boat captain, who will only accept sex for payment. She rides the bumpy boat to the church, makes it there on time. The groom ditches the bride at the altar when he learns what happened so she hires a goon to beat her would-be husband nearly to death, which he does while she laughs.

      Who's the most moral? The bride, the groom, the boat captain, or the goon? I always figured the goon was the most moral because he's offering a business service in a free market, and seems to have a willingness to make sure the customer gets his or her money's worth. No one agreed with me.

    6. Re:Who is really at fault? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      You are missing a few alternatives

      f) The one that wrote the spyware

      g) The ones that decided to put windows connected with internet and managed by people with no concepts in security in computers with sensible information

      h) Bill Gates

      i) Canada (when in doubt, blame Canada)

    7. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's entirely possible they will lose all Federal support. Breaching HIPPA is a big deal.

      In your imagination it is. Can you name one significant case where HIPPA was enforced with any real severity? I'll even give you time to google it...

      *crickets*

    8. Re:Who is really at fault? by hyfe · · Score: 1
      Who is really to blame for a rape?

      a) The man doing it?
      b) The woman for wearing suggestive clothes?
      c) The Police for not being there?
      d) The nightclub they met at for not monitoring everything closely enough?

      ..and yes, I do know the analogy doesn't quite hold, but I do believe it's close enough. If you commit a crime, you're at fault for breaking it. Always.

      The victim should never get the blame for not anticipating somebody being an asshole. You might say they already got their punishment for that mistake.

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
    9. Re:Who is really at fault? by gnud · · Score: 2, Informative

      What I (and I suspect others) mean, is that she should really have known not to open email attachments on that computer.

      Of course the dude's at fault. But this could easily have been prevented. I could try to fit this into a rape analogy, but that would just be sad.
      You can never prove that a rape wouldn't have happened if not for the miniskirt.
      The spyware would not have gotten installed if not for her running weird programs on a hospital computer.

      On the other hand, she should probably not have been allowed to check her private email on that computer at all.

    10. Re:Who is really at fault? by LordAndrewSama · · Score: 1

      Sure the hospital gets a fail, but invasion of privacy is still a crime, isn't it?

    11. Re:Who is really at fault? by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Blame Canada! Blame Canadaaaa~~

      It isn't even a real country anyways.

    12. Re:Who is really at fault? by trapnest · · Score: 0

      Except that being raped requires no interaction from you. She decided it was a good idea to run an exe from her personal email account on what was supposed to be a secure machine.

    13. Re:Who is really at fault? by BenevolentP · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Im so sick of the "guilty of stupidity" argument so common here on slashdot.
      For most people, computers are still a small, convenient part of life, so they don't educate themselves about it's threats.

      But even if they are actually stupid, as in low IQ or poor planning abilities, that does NOT make them guilty in any sense if they're victims of some sad, controlling stalker.

      Reminds me a little of some people who say that people who get caught smoking pot 3 times deserve the 25 years in prison they get in some stone-age places i heard of because they were "so stupid".

      Stupid people suffer, too, and are mostly not at fault for their stupidity.

    14. Re:Who is really at fault? by bigdaisy · · Score: 1

      a) The man for emailing the spyware?

      b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

      c) Yahoo for not blocking it?

      d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed.

      e) Some combination of the above?

      f) Nobody. It was a failure of the "system", so nobody has to take responsibility.

    15. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Breaching HIPPA is a big deal.

      Is it? Have things changed since 2006?
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/04/AR2006060400672.html

      "In the three years since Americans gained federal protection for their private medical information, the Bush administration has received thousands of complaints alleging violations but has not imposed a single civil fine and has prosecuted just two criminal cases."

      Lots of legislation gets passed to placate voters, but is deliberately de-fanged by not providing funding or a directive for enforcement. The trick is probably as old as politics.

    16. Re:Who is really at fault? by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

      Yes, for abject stupidity.

      Why? It's a computer where apparently public internet access is accepted, being tricked into installing spyware is stupidity but hardly criminally negligent stupidity. To me it sounds like a major WTF in security design (one pc for both) and permissions (how did she manage to execute the spyware), but her actions are just simple gullability that millions of users fall for.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    17. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Right. Ever worked in that environment? Nope? Thought not.. I have..
      You're faced with:

      Consultant (medical doctor) says "I need to access the net to be able to read research papers, proposals, and various ad hoc sites that contain research on the subjects that I deal with, along with external mail that I use because I move from hospital to hospital quite regularly.".
      IT says: "You can't access the net from that machine".
      Consultant goes to see hospital directors, stamps feet, and IT get overridden.

      Bear in mind there are several thousand PCs on a lot of hospital sites, with maybe 3 technicians to go fix and maybe one or 2 sysadmins. Hospital HR frequently sees IT as just waving a magic wand and things happen miraculously, so it's a "good way to save costs".
      If you tie machine names down that can't access the net, I can guarantee a consultant will find a way to get a machine in the area that does, even if it's moving someone else's there.
      As for breaking terms and conditions of use. Who do you think will win that pissing competition? Someone in the beleagured and under funded/under resourced IT department who is overlooked and overworked, or the consultant with the hand shakes and the ear of the board of directors?

      Coupled with the fact that not all antivirus and anti-malware will spot every variant. It'll get 90+ percent, but you always hear about the ones that get through.
      I'm surprised an executable got through the proxy filtering there, but hey.. Without knowing all the ins and outs of this in detail, I'm going to reserve judgement.

      The real world can be a messy morass of politics.. Working in a hospital, or academia, really has that in excess.. Try working in one if you think it's easy.. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion after doing it for a while..

    18. Re:Who is really at fault? by shentino · · Score: 1

      The bride, apart from breaking her virginity, took pleasure in the groom's misery.

      The captain, much like Microsoft, was the sole arbiter of church transportation and exploited his position to secure monopoly profit of sex.

      The goon, just like a mercenary, committed assault for profit.

      The least immoral would be the groom. Lack of sympathy notwithstanding, he is the only one of the bunch that has clean hands.

      Regarding the actual scenario, it depends on the facts.

      First of all, if she violated internal regulations regarding access to personal email, ding.

      If she knowingly opened an executable attachment, ding.

      However, if the attachment opened itself automatically without intervention on her part, then no ding.

      Incompetent IT staff misconfiguring/failing to properly secure the computer/network, ding, unless they were forcibly overruled by management.

      Management, if they prevented IT from securing the system.

      The sender, if he manually intervened to cause the malware to be sent.

      Quite honestly, if the malware was an autopropagating worm, there's not much blame to be had outside of who launched it.

    19. Re:Who is really at fault? by Dhalka226 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed. Bingo. They failed to take steps a reasonably prudent person would have taken to protect patient confidentiality under Federal law.

      Consultant goes to see hospital directors, stamps feet, and IT get overridden.

      You make a compelling argument for not firing the IT guy for what happens which, let's face it, is probably what will happen after they scapegoat him if anything bad happens to the hospital.

      However, "they" in the GP's post referred to "the hospital." In that sense it doesn't really matter if it's an incompetent IT staffer, a cranky doctor or poor executive management. Something that needed to be done under the law wasn't done, and the result was the leaking of confidential medical information. The hospital still deserves both blame and punishment for that.

    20. Re:Who is really at fault? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know what. IT support are janitors. Much in the same way that the janitors can't tell Doctors/executives "you can't do that for the good of the hospital/company", IT support can't do that either.

      So the chances of locking down a network that people work on is essentially zero. And much like janitors, when users make a mess of things is IT support's job to clean it up.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    21. Re:Who is really at fault? by Inda · · Score: 1

      Spyware installation via email is news to me in 2009. Does it really still happen? My email provider will not allow me to open executables and I've been happy with that arrangement for 3 or 4 years. Even before that, AV would have intercepted it. And before that we had I Love You and lessons were learnt...

      Not even Outlook 2003 would have opened and installed that spyware.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    22. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not c)

      It's virtually impossible to detect unknown threats, unless you're willing to deal with a lot of false alarms which is by the very nature of Yahoo mail pretty much impossible. You can do that with your mailserver, where your users should only have restricted access and where you can dictate pretty much anything, including that the sending and receiving of executables is disallowed, but Yahoo has to keep a pretty open file attachment policy or people will move from Yahoo mail to GMail or whatever other mail provider lets them do what they want to do.

      I'd go with e, without c.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    23. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Executing an unknown file from an unreliable source IS criminally negligent. Unfortunately, since our lawmakers apparently consider themselves stupid enough to do the same, it's not in the law books.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:Who is really at fault? by PinchDuck · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've worked in the IT department of hospitals in the UK, Australia, and the United States. The situation is the same in every one, you described it perfectly. Physicians are gods, and will be allowed to circumvent any IT policies they see fit, even if it exposes the entire hospital to a security risk.

    25. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Just 'cause millions do it, it's not fine and ok. At least the content industry keeps telling me that.

      When has it become a human right to use a computer, no matter how inapt you are, no matter whether you know more than "push this button to turn it on" and no matter what damage you do with your incompetence? We're far from the point where being negligent only endangered your machine, your connection, your data and your information, the internet made it very possible to become a threat to everyone else connected to this network.

      Seriously (just to bring a car analogy to this thread), if people drove the way they use the 'net, hospitals would be overflowing.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The most "moral" would be the groom. Because it's within our morals to dump someone who promised you virginity but can't provide it.

      In a perfect world, I'd probably agree with you.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:Who is really at fault? by pixr99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Right. Ever worked in that environment? Nope? Thought not.. I have.. You're faced with:

      [snip incredibly accurate account of working in healthcare IT

      Almost creepy to hear you describe the situation. Your experiences so exactly match what I face each day that I had to check the userid to make sure it wasn't me who wrote that comment. I suppose I can take some solace knowing that I'm not alone.

    28. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You ARE aware that the victims in this case are the patients of the hospital, not the woman who foolishly installed the spyware, yes?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    29. Re:Who is really at fault? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      Coupled with the fact that not all antivirus and anti-malware will spot every variant. It'll get 90+ percent, but you always hear about the ones that get through.

      I get the rest of your defence but why allow users to execute random files in a windows environment?

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    30. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you give IT as much power as janitors, then don't expect them to do anything but clean up after you when you've shat your network up.

    31. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing the expected answer would be the groom, who did nothing typically considered immoral.

      Murder is generaerally considered immoral, so the goon is out.
      The boat captain is immoral, since he exploits his transporation monopoly for sex.
      The bride is immoral for both cheating on the man who is all but her husband, and more importantly for ordering his murder.

      While what did the groom do? He chose not to marry the woman who had just cheated on him. Nothing wrong with that.

    32. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody claims to be an expert on HIPAA, but most of them can't even spell it.

    33. Re:Who is really at fault? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      In what fucking world do you live in that you think running a random file is criminally negligent?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    34. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "consultant" (ie doctor) DOES need Internet access there. It is not his fault. Either IT was too incompetent to provide safe Internet access in that location (almost never the case) or the hospital Administration was too cheap to pay for the equipment IT needed to meet their customer's (the doctor's) needs.

    35. Re:Who is really at fault? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Right. Ever worked in that environment? Nope? Thought not.. I have..

      So what you're saying is that the hospital would be even less at fault, if they cut the IT staff to one scapegoat and fired him every time something bad happened? Of course not. A vastly overworked IT department doesn't immunize a hospital against breaches of security and the release of patient information. Still an excellent whine, even for Slashdot. ;-)

    36. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, "they" in the GP's post referred to "the hospital." In that sense it doesn't really matter if it's an incompetent IT staffer, a cranky doctor or poor executive management. Something that needed to be done under the law wasn't done, and the result was the leaking of confidential medical information. The hospital still deserves both blame and punishment for that.

      I don't think you understand how powerful some MDs are in many hospital settings, especially if they are trained in a rare specialty.

      My fiancee is an oncologist (cancer doc), and there are 3 of them in the entire hospital. When one of them gets sick, goes on vacation or goes to a conference, it has a dramatic effect on patient care. It takes a long time to train an oncologist, and there aren't many of them around. She gets all sorts of perks, including a free parking spot.

      Now, my fiancee isn't a jerk, but everything she has asked the hospital for has always been granted.

    37. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They won't lose all federal support. They are subject to a big fine, true, but not loss in Medicare dollars.
      BTW, it's HIPAA (health insurance portability and accountability act).

    38. Re:Who is really at fault? by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      Consultant goes to see hospital directors, stamps feet, and IT get overridden.

      This is why you always, always, always get this in writing and keep several backup copies.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    39. Re:Who is really at fault? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      In one where doing this is the prime source of problems on the internet?

      The very least I would ask for is that you're responsible for the actions of your machines. A computer connected to the internet is the only machine I know of that can have negative effects on others that you may use with impunity, whether you know how to operate it safely or not.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:Who is really at fault? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      It's entirely possible they will lose all Federal support. Breaching HIPPA is a big deal.

      In your imagination it is. Can you name one significant case where HIPPA was enforced with any real severity? I'll even give you time to google it...

      Thanks, needed that few extra seconds - not one, but many. And those are just some basic stats (and a specific case) that was found with a three second google search.

    41. Re:Who is really at fault? by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 0

      In what fucking world do you live in that you think running a random file is criminally negligent?

      One where everyone that works in medical IT agrees.

    42. Re:Who is really at fault? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but that wasn't in his statement, or even his argument.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    43. Re:Who is really at fault? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Simple solution: Run two network loops, and give the doctor his research computer on a different network. There are lots of places that do this.

      Although in reality, the most practical solution is to make the users non-admins so this can't happen.

    44. Re:Who is really at fault? by Natales · · Score: 1

      Have separate virtual environments then. No data in local PCs. Period. Want to access a system with patient data? X/RDP/ICA into a remote *secure*, datacenter-hosted VM with all the protections and NO Internet access. Want to access the Internet? do the same in a completely different VM with *only* Internet access. It's not rocket science and the technology has been around for quite some time.

    45. Re:Who is really at fault? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Stupid people suffer, too, and are mostly not at fault for their stupidity.

      Yes, while that is true, stupid SHOULD hurt. Stupid people just don't know their limits, that is what makes them stupid.

      I know retarded people who are NOT STUPID, they know their limits. There are a few rare cases of people who know their limits, and yet push their limits to the extreme, and the funny thing is, they accept responsibility for their "stupidity" and often repeat their feats just because they like to know the exact bounds of their limits.

      In the case of the article, I'd fire everyone who made that possible in the hospital, including IT, if needed.

      If I were in IT at the hospital, I'd have documentation showing all the proposals I made to prevent such things from happening in the first place. And who rejected those proposals and their excuse.

      And if the cost of the cleanup was REALLY $33,000 I'd use that as fodder for the next time someone rejected a security policy suggestion. But that is typical of IT, we only get funding when shit breaks.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    46. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. Okay it is already at +5, but mod it up more.

      Hospital politics is a major contibutor to the success or failure of any IT initative.
      The other one is resources, as mentioned above as well. Healthcare traditionally underfunds IT tremendously. Hospitals already pay huge amounts of money for MRI machines, drugs, sterile supplies and nifty artificial joints, not to mention the cost of all those people who actually provide care. There just isn't any money left over for IT. And yes, that makes a convincing arguement for Linux and other FOSS software.

      Except it is very hard finding anyone who will sell you this stuff, for all that you want to do.

    47. Re:Who is really at fault? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Consultant (medical doctor) says "I need to access the net to be able to read research papers, proposals, and various ad hoc sites that contain research on the subjects that I deal with"

      Of course you do. And so you will do on the personnel library which has a tone of Internet-connected PCs.

      "Consultant goes to see hospital directors, stamps feet, and IT get overridden."

      Something nasty happens, medical data gets disclosed, the hospital gets a billionare fine and the directors get fired on the most publized way. As easy as that.

      On the other hand there's aplenty of technical solutions that would cope with the situation on a comfortable manner like terminals on different networks all showing on your very same screen and table. I happen to have opened a browser exported from a protected network through an VPN while I write this on a different browser on my home PC. They both look like two plain usual windows, only on this one I can reach slashdot and on the other one I can access some internal resources but not the Internet. Do you think there's a chance one window can "poison" the other one? Sorry but no.

      Involved software and labour costs for TCO? Way less than a retail Windows Vista Prof. license. Only proper knowledge and technical ability at work.

    48. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we prosecute gun salesmen whenever a gun kills someone? What about car salesmen when a car is used in some illegal activity? So why do you think the sender of the virus should be held responsible for what the recipient of the virus does with it?

      Just speaking hypothetically here, but what if the recipient knew it was a virus? TFA is light on details of if the man sent the email from an address that the woman knew was his, or if she had any reason to distrust him, but lets say she knew it came from him and was suspicious of it. Knowing this, and then going ahead and executing it on a machine with access to Personal Health Information, why should the man get any blame what-so-ever for the resulting fallout? Not saying he shouldn't be prosecuted for sending spyware, but I fail to see why it should be his fault that PHI was sent to him.

    49. Re:Who is really at fault? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?
      Yes, for abject stupidity."

      Uh... sure?

      Was she contracted as an IT expert? Did she lied when hired about her internet acumen?

      She *might* be guilty of something if she went over a training or at least a speech or a signed document where she was told what could be done or not (like using corporate assets for personal issues*1) but overall, I find that even if she was "abjectly stupid" is still the hospital at fault, not her, for hiring "abjectly stupid" people where a different profile is needed.

      After all, even if I'm "abjectly stupid" I still have to feed myself, so if my employer things I'm fitted for the position why should I tell otherwise?

      *1 And even then, if it's the company unwritten policy not to discourage or directly prosecute those attitudes, so much could be said.

    50. Re:Who is really at fault? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Or, you know... you give the doctor a wireless netbook/laptop to read papers with...

    51. Re:Who is really at fault? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The bride is the most moral.

      She didn't want to have sex with the boat captain, and sex that not all parties want is rape. Further, she's demonstrating the lengths she will go to to make the marriage work.

      Then the groom, finding she's been raped, dumps her on the spot. There was only one way they were going to get married, and he just ruled it out, after the rape. Extra guilt if he had any knowledge of the situation.

      Her cracking and hiring the goon is not moral, but is more excusable. On what should have been a happy day, she was victimized not only by a stranger but by her fiance.

      The goon and boat captain are both premeditated criminals, so they aren't moral. The groom put the bride in an impossible situation, devalued her as a person, and revealed the impossibility of the situation only after the rape.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    52. Re:Who is really at fault? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Negative effects meaning...spam? Because that's all the negative effects I'm going to get. If you choose a computer that's unsafe for you, that's your fault. Just like if you choose a car with fewer airbags.

      And, among other things, machines like cars and guns can be used with impunity, without safety knowledge, and have negative effects. Much more so that a computer. And yet USING those things is not criminally negligent.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    53. Re:Who is really at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but her actions are just simple gullability that millions of users fall for.

      Millions of people speed in their cars, but when they get caught they still get in trouble.

    54. Re:Who is really at fault? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Consultant (medical doctor) says "I need to access the net to be able to read research papers, proposals, and various ad hoc sites that contain research on the subjects that I deal with, along with external mail that I use because I move from hospital to hospital quite regularly.".

      IT says: "You can't access the net from that machine".

      So why aren't there more machines? You just had a user tell you what they need, and instead of coming up with a solution you said "no".

      The important thing to remember is that a physician is absolutely a mission-critical feature of a hospital. The hospital can't make money if no one will admit patients to it. So physicians take the place that large equipment does in factories: you keep us running, all the time, with minimal interference, because the whole rest of the system depends on our being maximally utilized. That - not our gentle dispositions and sunny personalities - is why hospital execs listen to us.

    55. Re:Who is really at fault? by introspekt.i · · Score: 1

      d) The hospital for not only allowing internet access from a computer with personally identifiable information, but for also allowing the spyware to get installed. Bingo. They failed to take steps a reasonably prudent person would have taken to protect patient confidentiality under Federal law. Spyware installation via email is not exactly news.

      Just because somebody's door is unlocked doesn't mean you can rob their house.

    56. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 1

      That's my well recognised tactic when I really need to butt heads with the directorate. Take a piece of paper to a meeting and say 'if you want this done, it'll need your signature to say you take the responsibility'.. Trust me, the backups are multiplexed, offsite covered, validated and verified along with being encrypted and fingerprinted. Doesn't help when the user accessed data (which needs to be human readable by definition) gets accessed and ripped by malware.

    57. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Umm.. You know about malware infection vectors and privilege escalation, yes?
      You don't need an admin level privilige to cause this particular type of compromise. And given that there may well be many flaws in an OS that aren't yet patched, any given vuln can be exploited to gain admin.

      If you're advocating multiple physically separated networks, you worked out the cost of doing that in a distributed campus (what most hospitals are)? Given that IT has no budget anyway, that doesn't fly.
      If you're talking about VLans, then you can vlan hop if you're clever enough anyway.

      I suspect what you may be advocating is "have some PCs on a network that access the internet, and others that don't". Yes, there are some closed area machines that have no access to the 'net.. However,for keeping the clinical departments working efficiently (especially with GP communication, inter hospital consultant communication etc. along with research materials in various off site databases), having the spread of machines is unfeasible. And when someone needs to send one of those particular pieces of data offsite, how do they do that? USB keys and writable media are disabled for users, which leaves the net.. Which isn't connected to anything that can transmit it..
      There are a LOT of issues to this environment, and not enough people to address them and implement them.
      The simple solution is to stop any computer accessing any network. Lo, you're secure. Useless, and you'll kill patients by lack of info, sure.. But you're secure..

    58. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 1

      *Cough* Really? When something's displayed is the point it's scraped. Doesn't matter where you hold your data beyond that.
      Oh, and when your 'net connection fails at the hospital boundary for any reason, you lose your data centre. That means no patient records.. Which means a lot of them will die due to lack of knowledge about their abreactions.

    59. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 1

      The only true security is a physical disconnect. If you can transmit packets, information can propogate.
      Seriously though, if you think it's that easy, give it a shot. Spend some time in a medical environment and see what you can get done. It's not as easy as you think.. And the constraints are annoyingly largely political and financial.

    60. Re:Who is really at fault? by malkavian · · Score: 1

      There aren't more machines because there aren't the people to put them in, or the money to buy them.
      And when they're in, there aren't the people to maintain them.
      So, user tells you they want something. You let them know it's not possible in the physical and financial constraints of the organisation.
      Sounds like you're a doctor. If/when you lose a patient, and you're asked why you couldn't save them, what do you say? There was nothing you could do. Valid answer. The constraints you were forced to operate in denied you the desired outcome. Now, if someone told you that a patient's family told you they wanted that person to survive, so it was up to you, and all your fault that person died, does that make you think you've done something wrong?
      Nope. You do what you can with what's known, available and possible. Maybe better equipment or a particular expensive drug avalable on hand would have swung it. Why didn't Pharmacy have it on hand to give you you, or the hospital have the machine in place?

      You'd be amazed at the work that actually goes on to make sure the medical staff don't need to know about the infrastructure keeping them running... Like all machinery, it only works when the supporting infrastructure is there. That breaks, and everything grinds to a halt.
      Yes, medics get a huge amount of well deserved respect.. But when you tinker with a system, make sure you understand it before you make the calls and apply the pressure. Thankfully, most doctors I know are pretty good about this. There are however ones that really don't think.. And that upsets more than they realise.

    61. Re:Who is really at fault? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The only true security is a physical disconnect."

      Yes. Physical disconnect... from the electric grid. But there's more than "true security", things like "there's job to be done" that are way more important since if the job is not done, the security in uneeded. There's a thing called "proper ballance". Of course, if you end up with a lot of medical records disclosed just because a rejected lover sent an e-mail you are lightyears away from "proper ballance".

      "Seriously though, if you think it's that easy, give it a shot."

      I not only give it a shot but I already make a living out of it. Not on the medical environment, obviously.

      "the constraints are annoyingly largely political and financial."

      Surely they are, and much more political than financial. But it is not technology the one that should deal with political issues; that's a mistake on and by itself. And since on a capitalistic society "politics" and "financial" are almost the same I already stated what the proper solution should be: "Something nasty happens, medical data gets disclosed, the hospital gets a billionare fine and the directors get fired on the most publized way. As easy as that."

    62. Re:Who is really at fault? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      I am a physician, although one with a reasonable amount of insight into the IT behind the walls - it's an older hospital, and I've been there for a decade. I've SEEN the wiring closets, I've watched as miles of ethernet were run through the drop ceilings. I understand the constraints on your end - you're a cost center, not a profit center, so you get shorted on resources. But some of the ideas in this thread are just frankly nuts, and I happened to pick your comment to reply to because it didn't sound too insane.

      I understand - and you do too - that there aren't going to be two separate networks. That locking down only goes so far. That requiring individual logins is a lovely concept that dies a flaming, ignominious death when you have both the doctors and the nurses upset about it. (It's too damned slow, especially on the creaky machines that we're stuck with. It takes over a minute for logging in to be complete on my office machine.) But I'd appreciate it if the kibitzers in this story would recognize why that is. There are, after all, simple economic reasons why hospital IT works the way it does, and it's not purely because the docs are prima donnas.

      (Although some of us are. It's part of the selection process - if you're full of self-doubt, you're not likely to go into medicine to begin with. Anecdote: Intro to psychiatry, first year of med school - the prof standing at the front asks everyone with a Type A personality to raise their hands. Maybe ten do. He says, "Everyone with your hands down, you're lying. If you weren't Type A, you wouldn't be here." He was right.)

    63. Re:Who is really at fault? by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 0

      Luckily, I was responding to neither his statement nor his argument, but rather his question.

      That's why I quoted it.

  7. Not applicable to slashdot by syousef · · Score: 1

    Your basement doesn't have an email account, and doesn't leave you when you treat it badly;-)

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Not applicable to slashdot by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Talk 'bout your own basement.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  8. Enough for everyone by QA · · Score: 1

    How did the .exe get through hmmm? Secondly, the machines should be locked down just a tad tighter one would think.

    Lots of blame to go round on this one.

  9. $33.000 in damages? by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

    How did they get to that number? Removing spyware isn't that expensive. For that money you could even replace a bunch of machines and trash the old ones.

    1. Re:$33.000 in damages? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't read the article, but I assume that's punitive, not compensatory.

    2. Re:$33.000 in damages? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, that's the first thing I thought too.

    3. Re:$33.000 in damages? by malkavian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Forensics, identifying exactly what the spyware was, conducting a thorough scan of all the network to see if it had spread, identifying what data was transferred, the infection vector, the administrative overheads of stopping the normal work to call an 'emergency situation' in which the sysadmins will concentrate on this exclusively, possibly not doing other maintenance work, or systems commissioning thus holding up medical projects (with the cost to them too).
      Administrative time throughout the hospital, as a fair part of the management chain will have this as a high profile to concentrate on, police liaison (and having time to have them on site to investigate in situ, and having technical staff support them), communications time to liaise with press, people to field the phone calls that come in, extra load on the patient support lines to cope with frantic patients who aren't in the best state of mind anyway after suffering cardiac problems, who are now worrying about what of their information is in the wild.. That's the tip of the iceberg by the way.
      Begin to see how that racks up to the big numbers? The machines aren't the expense, they're practically disposable. Unfortunately, data isn't tangible, so the non-IT staff don't see this shiny big item, and thus (out of sight, out of mind) don't consider it worth spending money over. All they see is that clicking a button makes data appear. Magic. Doesn't take effort, so why do they need an IT team to make it work? They decide they don't, cut IT funding (or never put it there), and eventually something like this happens because there isn't resource to make a secure network. And when it does, who gets the blame? Even from supposed 'geeks' who are supposed to understand what it's like being in an intensive overstressed IT role?

    4. Re:$33.000 in damages? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In America, damages don't mean how much the cost of the crime was, it's the amount of money they think the court will let them get away with.

    5. Re:$33.000 in damages? by Joren · · Score: 1

      How did they get to that number? Removing spyware isn't that expensive. For that money you could even replace a bunch of machines and trash the old ones.

      What dollar value would you put on the loss of privacy of one's medical records?

      --
      -- Joren
    6. Re:$33.000 in damages? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh... not really. That's probably a year's wages for the people who will have to actually clean up the mess. It's really gonna take a year to nuke and pave a Windows box and then do a grovelling letter to the affected patients using mail merge?

  10. Play stupid games... by Nick+Driver · · Score: 1

    ...win stupid prizes.

  11. wait, wha...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait, why did the not have sufficient protection against this? Let this be a lesson to the hospital.

  12. Not a Prank by pz · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article's title is "Spyware Prank Exposes Hospital Records".

    The actions described are not a prank. They are serious, and illegal by many standards. If the accusations are true, the fellow deserves everything thrown at him. The article's title should be changed to reflect the severity. Installing spyware to keep tabs on your ex-GF is not a prank. It's stalking.

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    1. Re:Not a Prank by umghhh · · Score: 2, Interesting
      why is this that fellow that is responsible for getting the records - this was obviously not his goal and if he is charged for it then it is just laughable. OTOH he is responsible for attempting to invade his Ex's privacy and that is serious enough to get some sort of punishment but why is the hospital getting the money - they are guilty of criminal negligence in handling patients' data so they should be paying not getting paid.

      to me it looks like one more example of justice system malfunctioning. It is not a great malfunction but shows that punishment and the crime are matched not by the facts but by the random acts of gov. officials. Was it not something that american constitution tried to prevent?

    2. Re:Not a Prank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The man may be liable to pay the hospital damages because he actually caused damage to the hospital (albeit unintentionally - which should lessen the punishment for the act). He surely should get punishment, how much that's a matter of what is written in the law, and the opinion of the judge in the grade of seriousness of the crime (assuming it's a crime, not an offense - this is also written in the law).

      On the other hand the hospital may be liable to pay damages to their patients whose details were exposed.

      This is justice at work properly imho - the court case is about this man intentionally sending spyware to spy on someone, and managing to get it installed. It is not about the hospital breaching regulations.

      I think we can all agree that the hospital was most certainly at fault AS WELL here for allowing such personal information to get out - but that should become a second court case; presumably initiated by either the government for breaching a government mandated regulation, or by a patient whose data got exposed. And in this case I'd call the hospital even very much at fault for allowing so open Internet access from a computer with such sensitive data on it.

    3. Re:Not a Prank by coaxial · · Score: 5, Insightful

      why is this that fellow that is responsible for getting the records - this was obviously not his goal and if he is charged for it then it is just laughable.

      What the hell is this supposed to mean? Since when has committing a crime unintentionally ever been a defense?

      "Oh officer! I wasn't INTENDING to kill all the cancer stricken orphans when I driving drunk, speeding, and firing my gun wildly! I just intending to disturb the peace!"
      "Oh! Well, that's a horse of a different color! I'll let you go with a warning then. Just try and keep it down next time. People are trying sleep around here."
      "Will do!"

      but why is the hospital getting the money - they are guilty of criminal negligence in handling patients' data so they should be paying not getting paid.

      1. It's criminal trespassing to access a computer without permission. Which he did by sending the spyware to someone with the intent to observe them.
      2. The hospital didn't hand out the data. It was stolen. It's still theft even if I leave the door wide open. It wasn't his. He has it, as a result of his actions.

      to me it looks like one more example of justice system malfunctioning. It is not a great malfunction but shows that punishment and the crime are matched not by the facts but by the random acts of gov. officials. Was it not something that american constitution tried to prevent?

      The opinion of someone who is woefully ignorant of the law, the intent of the law, common law, and basic morality, but yet somehow is an expert on constitutional law.

      It must be tough being so smart and surrounded by so many people that are blind to your brilliance.

      Go home and cry in your Ayn Rand novel.

    4. Re:Not a Prank by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since when has committing a crime unintentionally ever been a defense?

      Um, always? Most crimes require intent. Some require merely negligence. If you're charged with a crime that requires intent, and intent cannot be proven, then you cannot be sentenced for it.

      "Oh officer! I wasn't INTENDING to kill all the cancer stricken orphans when I driving drunk, speeding, and firing my gun wildly! I just intending to disturb the peace!"

      1. You're not being charged with anything by a police officer. That's the job of the prosecutor. And you'd be stupid for saying anything like that to the police officer arresting you. Remember the Miranda rights?

      2. Killing people is one of the few things that are a crime even if done negligently. However, there's a difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter.

    5. Re:Not a Prank by Dhalka226 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since when has committing a crime unintentionally ever been a defense?

      Sometimes, but more importantly it is pretty much always a mitigating factor. Your hypothetical person would be charged with reckless homicide, not capital murder (DUI = felony, murder = felony, having a gun during commission of a felony = felony). It sounds like he killed enough people in the anecdote for the differences to be semantic, but it's not nonexistent.

      Intent does matter. In this case, you can be pretty sure that's the reason the charge is only intercepting or conspiring to intercept electronic communications. They could easily have tacked on any number of unauthorized access/"hacking" charges.

      1. It's criminal trespassing to access a computer without permission. Which he did by sending the spyware to someone with the intent to observe them.

      Yeah, and? You said it yourself: criminal trespass. It's a government charge. The "victim" doesn't get the money. If they want to recover whatever it cost them to clean the systems and do whatever else it is they've done as a result of this, they can recover that via a civil action. And in any event, he wasn't charged with illegally accessing a computer system, he was charged with illegally intercepting electronic communication.

      To the degree that the government is handing over the money, the question remains. I don't know if it's an unrelated out-of-court agreement with the hospital to avoid litigation, however. The wording in the article wasn't clear.

      2. The hospital didn't hand out the data. It was stolen. It's still theft even if I leave the door wide open. It wasn't his. He has it, as a result of his actions.

      True. The question is what exactly the software did and how it works. A hospital employee shouldn't be able to install software on a department's computers at all. So what happened? Is it just really good spyware, able to avoid all the protections they had in place? Or is it that they didn't have any protections in place at all? Did the employee specifically download and run the attachment, regardless of what she thought it was? Or was it something that simply installed itself?

      The answers to those questions don't matter in terms of what the man did, but they do matter. There are extremely strict laws on the books about protecting patient data. If this is a symptom of their failure to do so, they could easily end up on the wrong side of legal action by either the government or the patients whose data was disseminated. I've no doubt that's what the OP was referring to when he said they should be paying, not getting paid. We don't have all the facts by any means, but it sounds like their security on systems capable of accessing patient records was spotty at best. That shouldn't be any more acceptable than what the man did.

      The opinion of someone who is woefully ignorant of the law, the intent of the law, common law, and basic morality, but yet somehow is an expert on constitutional law.

      Basic morality? Really? What he did was undoubtedly wrong, and he should be punished. But do you really think it's a felony? Should he really be locked up for five years because of it, in addition to a $33,000 fine? For the average American, $33,000 is essentially a year's worth of labor for free. That's a pretty hefty punishment all by itself. Five years? That's the sort of sentence we hand out for burglary or aggravated assault. This is not a man who is a danger to society. At this point we're left simply to hope that the judge is reasonable and there is sufficient leeway in the federal sentencing guidelines that this doesn't turn into a total miscarriage of justice. Surely justice counts among the intent of the law and basically morality, doesn't it?

      Maybe I'm one of these left-wing softy types, but what this guy needs more

    6. Re:Not a Prank by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      What the hell is this supposed to mean? Since when has committing a crime unintentionally ever been a defense?

      Do you need someone to explain to you the difference between a charge of first degree murder and manslaughter? Or are you just being intentionally thick for effect?

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    7. Re:Not a Prank by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You're right, to some degree, the headline should read "Spyware Prank Exposes Hospital Security Negligence"

      But maybe there wasn't enough room for that.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Not a Prank by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      That is why the REAL article says the guy is looking at 5 years in the slammer.

      You thought the Slashdot 'article/summary' header was going to be accurate? About anything? You haven't been here long.

    9. Re:Not a Prank by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      Intent follows the bullet, or the e-mail in this case.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    10. Re:Not a Prank by kharchenko · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nobody has gotten killed here - your analogies are completely baseless. What's more, information wasn't actually stolen here. Yes the records were transmitted, and this guy probably glanced over things he shouldn't have been allowed to see. But as far as I understand, he didn't try to distribute this info further, or used it in any way. Most likely he didn't even read the records. So practically, there's no consequential harm with respect to the medical records here.

      I agree what he did (spying on his ex) is illegal, but if his actions did not end up accidentally exposing glaring security problems with the hospital IT, you and the rest of the "think of the children" crowd wouldn't be calling for a public lynching here. 5 years in jail for spying on your gf's e-mail? That seems a bit extreme to me.

    11. Re:Not a Prank by mdwh2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Um, always? Most crimes require intent. Some require merely negligence. If you're charged with a crime that requires intent, and intent cannot be proven, then you cannot be sentenced for it.

      But there is intent - he clearly intended to commit the crime of installing spyware.

      Now, should someone's punishment take into account the effects, including things he didn't intended? In general, my understand is that this does happen. In fact, in some cases you can be charged for more serious crimes, even if you didn't intended that, on the grounds that you intended to commit a less serious crime. The obvious example is murder, where if you intended to harm someone, and they die as a result, that's still murder even if you didn't intend them to die.

      This makes sense if you think about it, otherwise someone could just claim they when they shot someone in the stomach, they didn't intended them to die. The point is that if you intended to commit a crime, you take responsibility for the consequences.

      In this case, it's not unreasonable to realise that installing something like spyware might have knock on unintentional effects.

    12. Re:Not a Prank by troll8901 · · Score: 1

      We are assuming that this news article is true. Yet, as Futurepower (558542) said, there are very few news items on this incident.

      I don't live in Australia, so ... anyone here can vouch for CIO Australia's accuracy standards in news reporting?

    13. Re:Not a Prank by dissy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Five years? That's the sort of sentence we hand out for burglary or aggravated assault. This is not a man who is a danger to society.

      First sentence, I agree. And the amount of jail time is the only thing left actually to question, and I will not be presumptuous enough to correct it.
      Actually most of your post I agree with...

      Second sentence however, no, he clearly IS a danger to society. Not for anything computer related of course. But he is stalking his ex-girlfriend. He most certainly needs punished accordingly.

      Any person that is not capable of controlling their actions based on their emotions is unpredictable and dangerous. On top of that, and the key point, he has proven he will act out on those emotions, putting aside all rational thought. THAT is why he is a danger to society (or at least the small portion of society that he has ever dated or talked sweetly to him.)

      Now, I too agree that it would be much much better in our society to offer help for people with emotional problems, instead of putting them in a situation guaranteed to cause more of them and produce a better criminal from it.
      That just is never going to happen. The humans doing the punishing are equally as irrational as those being punished, and so revenge will always be the primary concern for those people.
      It's not right, it's just a sad truth.

    14. Re:Not a Prank by Tarsir · · Score: 1

      How about in the exact example you gave? Intentionally killing someone with your car while drunk will earn you (in Canada, at least) first or second degree murder. Unintentionally killing someone with your car will earn you manslaughter, or possibly a lesser charge like gross negligence, depending on the exact circumstances. In fact, many laws specifically require a criminal intent.

    15. Re:Not a Prank by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      This is not a man who is a danger to society.

      Yes he is. While he wasn't seeking to PHYSICALLY harm the woman at this point, chances are a lot higher that he will in the future, compared to someone like me, who has the same basic technical skills to do the same thing, and yet never has.

      While I agree that 5 years jail is over kill, when compared to other crimes (eg Michael Vick), it he does deserve some jail/prison time, AND a very long parole period.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    16. Re:Not a Prank by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

      Sure, he deserves to be punished, but not imprisoned. He was trying to monitor his ex's email. This is pretty lame and reprehensible, but I'd hardly consider him a danger to anyone. It doesn't make sense to think of this on the same level as someone who is physically stalking a person.

      He needs to face some consequences, perhaps a fine and some community service. I would imagine he's already learned his lesson just from the shame and the legal hassles he is facing. There is no need to mess up his life. Prison will only make him more likely to cause problems once he is released.

      Cases like these are one reason we have such vastly higher incarceration rates than any other country.

    17. Re:Not a Prank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'It sounds like he killed enough people in the anecdote '

      I wish my anecdotes were that deadly.

    18. Re:Not a Prank by ffflala · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since when has committing a crime unintentionally ever been a defense?

      Sometimes, but more importantly it is pretty much always a mitigating factor. Your hypothetical person would be charged with reckless homicide, not capital murder (DUI = felony, murder = felony, having a gun during commission of a felony = felony). It sounds like he killed enough people in the anecdote for the differences to be semantic, but it's not nonexistent.

      Intent does matter.

      While intent does matter, intent can be transferable. For example if, intending to kill someone, you shoot at them, miss, and somehow kill forty innocent bystanders instead, your intent will suffice for forty counts of first degree murder.

      Here, the guy intended to stalk and illegally access information from his g/f's home computer. He missed the mark and instead hit a hospital. That he intended specifically to stalk his girlfriend doesn't absolve him of the end result of his actions.

    19. Re:Not a Prank by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      Stick the word "computer" in, and everything changes, right?

      The man is guilty of mischief.

      The woman is guilty of stupidity.

      The hospital -- they are guilty of violating a BUNCH of laws.

      You -- are guilty of being an asshole.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    20. Re:Not a Prank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      having a gun during commission of a felony = felony

      Recursively?

  13. Couldn't happen here... by Nomaxxx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In Belgium, many of the hospitals have most of their computers running Linux...

    1. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Belgium, many of the chocolate factories use Gnome(s).

    2. Re:Couldn't happen here... by horatiocain · · Score: 1

      Good job, Belgium! In the US, it's *entirely* windows for hospitals. The only exception is those facilities that are still using mainframes and dumb terminals. Terrifying, really.

    3. Re:Couldn't happen here... by velen · · Score: 1

      Great. Now get some of those vendors to translate their solutions to English and post it for sale outside of Belgium. Software in Dutch for Linux, hmm...

    4. Re:Couldn't happen here... by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm sure there exists spyware for Linux as well.

      It is a lot harder to get an executable sent over e-mail to run on the system, but it is still possible. Running Linux does NOT make one immune against this kinds of attacks.

      I'm quite sure Linux is easier to secure than Windows, the core error this hospital made was not as much running Windows, as not closing off all access to the Internet. It just doesn't go together with sensitive patient data. Those Linux computers your Belgium hospitals are working with also should be shielded thoroughly from the open Internet.

    5. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Deanalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that there are plenty of keyloggers, trojans, rootkits etc for linux as well, open source and commercial. Remember that when kiddies scan for weak php code, they will land on a linux box at least 90% of time time.

    6. Re:Couldn't happen here... by coaxial · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Russia Linux runs YOU!

    7. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Engeekneer · · Score: 1

      This might help for now, but if - like it seems - linux is getting more widely used, it will get it's fair share of malware too, well there already is a bunch. What the hospitals need to do is not trust that the operating system is completely secure, but secure their systems independent of the OS used. Come on, allowing that level of general internet access from a computer that handles patient information? Why not put the info on an USB stick and just forget it somewhere.

    8. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Ronald+Dumsfeld · · Score: 1

      In Belgium, many of the hospitals have most of their computers running Linux...

      Unfortunately, it doesn't mean 'apt-get cure-for-cancer' works.

      --
      Where's the Kaboom?
      There's supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom.
    9. Re:Couldn't happen here... by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is trivial to angrily write a trojan that infects a girlfriend's Linux machine and sends screen caps via email. You don't need to be root to run something to the effect of xwd | sendmail. All you need to do is to be dumb enough to execute an attachment. That's not a problem unique to Windows, that's a feature of dumb users.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    10. Re:Couldn't happen here... by MaGGuN · · Score: 1

      In Belgium, many of the hospitals have most of their computers running Linux...

      This was a situation where a user carelessly executed a binary offered by email, social engineering is platform independent.

    11. Re:Couldn't happen here... by SlashBugs · · Score: 1

      Of courres not.

      sudo apt-get cure-for-cancer

    12. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do they get anything done?

    13. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, how does a person without root access accidentally install a key logger in linux? I can see how, if the default for a user was to give him an account with admin rights, it might happen, but only if you habitually typed in your password every time you saw a box requesting it.

      Linux does still require you to have an account with root access and type your password in to install applications, right?

    14. Re:Couldn't happen here... by macintyred · · Score: 1

      Except you need root access to run anything that installs an executable on the system. And when you install an app, you type a password even WITH root access.

    15. Re:Couldn't happen here... by macintyred · · Score: 1

      oops. I should have read further. I still think that it's more difficult than you suggest, it would be harder to hide from the user and it would still be limited to what the original user did on the computer - not what everyone who used the computer did, but you might be able to get something like that to run.

    16. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and the argument was that the hospital had linux - no one said the girlfriend had it. Presumably he would have sent a trojan that targeted the girlfriend's computer, not the hospital's.

    17. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple, just plug in that new HDTV you got. Ever hear of powerline keyloggers? If not look it up on google.

    18. Re:Couldn't happen here... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Citation needed. I've some belgian nurses among my friends and I've never heard about this.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    19. Re:Couldn't happen here... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      In which case, if the gf ran Linux, the hospital would have been better off using Windows. There's nothing special about Linux there.

    20. Re:Couldn't happen here... by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Informative

      As a programmer, I run custom executables on systems without obtaining root access all the time. On Unix you can execute anything that has an 'x' flag, they don't need to be installed in special system directories. (other obscure operating systems required that all executables be installed in special privileged directories/volumes)

      You can put foo.sh in an email and convince someone to run it fairly easily.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    21. Re:Couldn't happen here... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      It is a lot harder to get an executable sent over e-mail to run on the system, but it is still possible. Running Linux does NOT make one immune against this kinds of attacks.

      You could write an SELinux policy to prevent outbound access except to certain binaries that only root can chance. I dunno, maybe Windows can do that too.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    22. Re:Couldn't happen here... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      It is a lot harder to get an executable sent over e-mail to run on the system, but it is still possible. Running Linux does NOT make one immune against this kinds of attacks.

      You could write an SELinux policy to prevent outbound access except to certain binaries that only root can chance. I dunno, maybe Windows can do that too.

      By my understanding that is how many Windows firewalls work, which is why there is all the time the message like "program x tries to make outbound connection, allow/deny". I'm not working with Windows much though.

      If firewalls work that way already, it should be trivial to only allow root/administrator to be able to give such permission, and you are there.

      The next step is to not only have the user not run as administrator, which is probably near impossible to do. And it will be really hard to close all the other permission escalations that are possible - all ways for an attacker to either gain permission from the firewall to connect to the outside world, or to simply stop the firewall all together.

      The real solution is of course to have a company-wide firewall shielding your LAN from the Internet and only allowing connections on certain ports to certain external sites. Whitelist only, that is. With maybe an option for certain users to log-in to the firewall to gain more open access. Or requiring a log-in to the firewall to get Internet access in the first place.

    23. Re:Couldn't happen here... by richlv · · Score: 1

      on the other hand, it's trivial to set up computers like these to have locations writable by users to be mounted noexec. that would deal with 99% of user initiated attack vectors.

      --
      Rich
    24. Re:Couldn't happen here... by Deanalator · · Score: 1

      Hrm, well how about the fact that flash/realplayer/acrobat etc updates lag pretty far behind in Linux, in conjunction with any of the 3-4 local root escalations from the past couple months.

      I'm not going to argue that it's a trivial task, but owning a Linux workstation is not really the dark art that it used to be.

    25. Re:Couldn't happen here... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The real solution is of course to have a company-wide firewall shielding your LAN from the Internet and only allowing connections on certain ports to certain external sites. Whitelist only, that is. With maybe an option for certain users to log-in to the firewall to gain more open access. Or requiring a log-in to the firewall to get Internet access in the first place.

      Ideally you could tag certain apps to certain VLAN's by policy and route them that way. I've been told by real Windows admins that the system has no internal VLAN infrastructure, though, that it's up to NIC drivers to implement, so probably not, I'd guess.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  14. I hope the woman lost her job as well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't be opening personal e-mail at work, on corporately owned computers.

  15. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this says enough about the state of health care in the U.S., if you haven't noticed.. most of the time, the staff is doing absolutely nothing while people are waiting for them to move their ass to grab some paperwork.

    i welcome reform.

    this opinion is owned entirely by me but should be your opinion too.

    1. Re:Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i welcome reform.

      That makes you a racist.

  16. MS Windows Doesn't Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have uttered this before and been made fun of for it... but non-the-less I'm gong to say it again. MS Windows does not work. Despite that it is consistently used all over the place MS has failed to produce a solution that isn't prone to constant failure and problems. Maintenance is costly and even when maintaining security tends to fail to protect the system.

  17. Pretty Steep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    That's quite a lot of money and jail time. Good thing he didn't download a song, then he'd REALLY be in trouble.

    1. Re:Pretty Steep by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Well there's a point - did he have permission to use the spyware application, or did he steal it? If he stole it, then the $33,000 will be nothing compared to the millions that the spyware author will be entitled to.

      Won't somebody think of the poor spyware authors?

  18. E) by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

    Yeah its E) as all but C) because yahoo doesn't promise 100% accuracy.

    --
    Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
  19. What could be worse by zlel · · Score: 1

    What could be worse than a bad breakup?

    1. Re:What could be worse by pwfffff · · Score: 1

      Genocide?

  20. odd by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Insightful

    does anyone else find it odd that the real damage was done to the patients and yet the hospital is being compensated for damages and not the patients? wouldn't the hospital also be liable for the damages considering that theri IT department failed to put up reasonable protection?

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    1. Re:odd by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      The company always wins, think of the court system like Vegas, corporations are the house.

      In this case a guy commited an offense against his ex.
      It ended up hurting her hospital's patients.
      Half the blame should go to the hospital for breaking the rules set up so this should be impossible.
      Possibly to the girl as well if she violated company policy in getting the email.
      In the end the hospital gets the money.

    2. Re:odd by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      In reality the girl should be suing the guy for attempted stalking or w/e maybe just get a restraining order. And the patients should be suing the hospital for allowing such a breach in security. And if the girl broke company policy the hospital should be firing/charging the girl.

      But that just makes too much sense...

    3. Re:odd by malkavian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The hospital will be compensated for material damages. They are bound by law to inform the patients that their data has been released. Those patients will take up law suits against the hospital, which will be investigated, and they will recieve large amounts of compensation.
      Odds on, if you look at the structure, you'll see the IT dept is over worked and under funded, so the real responsibility lies with the Directorate of the hospital, penny pinching on a department they don't see as shiny enough to be well funded.

    4. Re:odd by Memroid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and yet the hospital is being compensated for damages and not the patients

      Does this remind anyone of the RIAA?

  21. Hospital management at fault, not employee by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1, Troll

    Indeed, it gives one great pause since that computer *should* have been running anti-virus software to check each download and executable as it was opened, and, presumably, would have caught this installation. Through professional contacts, I'm passingly familiar with the IT environment in a Big University Hospital and the hoops that my colleagues have to jump through to put a PC on the hospital network are near onerous. Those machines are sterile, or as close to sterile as humanly possible.

    Don't be a shithead. E-Mail is not a replacement for a file system. Nor should hospitals be using systems that are even remotely succeptible to malware. Pretending otherwise or, worse, blaming the user for defective products is an M$ attitude. There are two underlying problems hidden:

    1) How the hell was it possible for a hospital unit to have Windows on any of their computers in the first place? HIPAA compliance has been mandatory for many years now and there has been more than enough time to phase out Windows. Did you read the dozen EULAs for the Windows box and all its software and server hooks? For all service packs and CALs? Thought not. Neither did the hospital management. The woman is not at fault, the hospital management who signed of on the purchase or deployment of the Windows machines is the sole group to blame (excepting the sender of course).

    2) Any self-respecting milter can strip ALL attachments automatically and delete them. MIMEDefang is a good example, but one of many. The stripping of attachments can even include a non-looping auto-reply to the sender including instructions on the correct way to transfer files.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    1. Re:Hospital management at fault, not employee by horatiocain · · Score: 5, Informative

      1) How the hell was it possible for a hospital unit to have Windows on any of their computers in the first place? HIPAA compliance has been mandatory for many years now and there has been more than enough time to phase out Windows. Did you read the dozen EULAs for the Windows box and all its software and server hooks? For all service packs and CALs? Thought not. Neither did the hospital management. The woman is not at fault, the hospital management who signed of on the purchase or deployment of the Windows machines is the sole group to blame (excepting the sender of course).

      I have an ugly truth for you - almost every hospital in the US uses Windows (95 through XP) for every single workstation. Every single Healthcare IT software vendor develops solely for windows (save a few web-based packages.) It's a very pure MS monoculture. I know, I know, it's sick. I agree completely with the above, but the emperor is threadless here.

    2. Re:Hospital management at fault, not employee by NSN+A392-99-964-5927 · · Score: 1

      Indeed, it gives one great pause since that computer *should* have been running anti-virus software to check each download and executable as it was opened, and, presumably, would have caught this installation. Through professional contacts, I'm passingly familiar with the IT environment in a Big University Hospital and the hoops that my colleagues have to jump through to put a PC on the hospital network are near onerous. Those machines are sterile, or as close to sterile as humanly possible.

      Don't be a shithead. E-Mail is not a replacement for a file system. Nor should hospitals be using systems that are even remotely succeptible to malware. Pretending otherwise or, worse, blaming the user for defective products is an M$ attitude. There are two underlying problems hidden:

      1) How the hell was it possible for a hospital unit to have Windows on any of their computers in the first place? HIPAA compliance has been mandatory for many years now and there has been more than enough time to phase out Windows. Did you read the dozen EULAs for the Windows box and all its software and server hooks? For all service packs and CALs? Thought not. Neither did the hospital management. The woman is not at fault, the hospital management who signed of on the purchase or deployment of the Windows machines is the sole group to blame (excepting the sender of course).

      2) Any self-respecting milter can strip ALL attachments automatically and delete them. MIMEDefang is a good example, but one of many. The stripping of attachments can even include a non-looping auto-reply to the sender including instructions on the correct way to transfer files.

      Dear SgtChaireBourne, Your comments are well founded, however in the UK most hospitals use Windows as does the DWP (Department for Work and Pensions) along with other government agencies and Police. The National Health Service is also open to attack despite spending over 4 billion pounds on an new IT system which is totally foobar. Maybe this should be another story for another slashdot, if a user wants to digg a little deeper and google "The Big Opt Out". But otherwise I have to concur with your comments. All the best, NSN

      --
      All cows eat grass!
    3. Re:Hospital management at fault, not employee by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) How the hell was it possible for a hospital unit to have Windows on any of their computers in the first place? HIPAA compliance has been mandatory for many years now and there has been more than enough time to phase out Windows.

      Which part of HIPAA do you think precludes using Windows ?

    4. Re:Hospital management at fault, not employee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Well for one thing, folks at hospitals have to run these things called 'applications'. Many of these applications run on windows only. They are very specialized apps, and no *nix version exists. And no, many of them don't run under Wine, nor would Wine be considered supported by the vendors even if they did.

      2) Folks at hospitals generally find attachments useful. As do most people most places.

  22. Why is this on the same network? by 228e2 · · Score: 1

    Correct me if i am wrong, but medical records like this should not even be on the same network that connects to the outside. Corporations everywhere have dedicated intranets for such private matters along with a public internet that is 100% unconnected to the internal system. Poor poor poor structure from top to bottom.

    --
    Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
  23. If I were Judge Judy.... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    ....I would judge b) thru e) as incompetence, and a) as malice of forethought.

    The woman is a careless victim, the patients are innocent victims, the hospital is a victim of it's own incompetence, the guy is a creepy bunny-boiler who got more than he bargained for when he deliberately hacked her computer.

    If I were Judge Judy, after lecturing all three on their different styles of stupidity I would then award as follows...;
    The hospital would get nothing in the way of compenstation and would be forced to come back in a month with a happy court appointed ipsec auditor.
    The woman would at worst get a written warning from the hospital.
    $30K, Three months, plus a GPS braclet for a year, plus costs would seriously fuck with the guys personal life, which seems fair punishment to me in an eye for an eye kind of way.
    It's impractical to involve individual patients so the $30K would compensate the "patients" by seriously upgrading the box of broken plastic and tattered books that childrens wards euphemistically call their "toy box".

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  24. Who are they punishing??? by rew · · Score: 1

    Why don't they fine the guy $100 for trying to spy on his girlfriend, and why don't they fine the woman $50,000 in damages and fire ther for violating hospital security procedures (at least two of them: viewing private Email on work computers, clicking on executable attachments)?

    Why don't they fine the hospital $1Million for not properly protecting the privacy of their patients?

    Did the guy intend to spy on the medical procedures of those patients? No!

    Suppose you're walking around as a tourist somewhere happily shooting pictures of the landmarks with your expensive new 24 megapixel camera with 400mm zoom lens. So you shoot a picture which say captures some trade secret. Now do you get thrown in jail for industrial espionage?

    It is completely different if you specifically buy that camera and lens with the intent to take those industrially sensitive pictures, and especially position yourself in a way that you can photograph the competitions board room.

    1. Re:Who are they punishing??? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight:

      1. Intentionally committing a criminal offence to illegal spy on someone, using malicious spyware - $100.

      2. Being the victim of a crime, and being tricked into running an email attachment - $50,000.

      3. Being the victim of a crime - $1,000,000.

      Did the guy intend to spy on the medical procedures of those patients? No!

      Did he intend to spy on whatever was on the computer that he sent the spyware too? Yes.

      So you shoot a picture which say captures some trade secret. Now do you get thrown in jail for industrial espionage?

      Last time I looked, taking photos wasn't illegal. If you broke into somewhere, took photos of the place, then yes, I'd say that "But I didn't mean to take a picture of that" isn't much of a defence.

    2. Re:Who are they punishing??? by rew · · Score: 1

      "But I didn't mean to take a picture of that" isn't much of a defence.

      So if you're walking around paris, shoot the eiffel tower, and happen to shoot a weirdo with his child-porn-magazine in the background. You're not going to say... "but I didn't mean to take a picture of that!" ? Yeah right!

      If I name the browser you used to post the above "malicious" and "illegal", you just intentionally committed a crime using malicious and illegal software by posting the above defamatory statements.

      The BBC sent a laptop in for a simple repair, to find out what the repair techs would do to the machine. So they installed software that would take a screenshot every few seconds. It took screenshots of their own laptop. Is this illegal? I think not. So is the software illegal? When packaged with an auto-installer is it then illegal?

      Do you have a knife in your kitchen? The use of that knife becomes illegal when you stick it into someone.

      With the punishments as they are what are you stimulating? That jealous husbands stop using electronic surveillance to try to spy on their wives. Good.

      But hospital employees should continue to jeopardize the privacy of the patients by clicking every executable in their inbox. If something bad happens it's always the other guy that did something illegal. Never your fault!

      Do you get any spam? I bet you do. Getting spam is a "fact of life". Getting phishing attempts simply is a fact of life as well. It isn't going away because its illegal any time soon. Hospital employees, and more importantly hospitals themselves need to protect themselves against these outside influences.

      Before you know it, it is illegal to enter a hospital with a contagious disease. And if a person ends up infecting the whole hospital, that person gets to die in jail, and the hospital gets to continue using unsafe practices that allow the wild dissemination of diseases.

  25. Offtopic by Exception+Duck · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    We need to automatically post the top story of the day 4,5,6 years ago from now, you could use.
    Take the most commented story on those 3 days in question, repost it.

    Also why doesn't /. work on chrome, the +- thingy appear at the bottom of the story.

    1. Re:Offtopic by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Er, you're begging to 1. be downmodded 2. harm your karma 3. for no good reason because when it's downmodded, nobody will see it anyway. Posts like that are what User Journals are for. Your journal is never offtopic and can't be modded down no matter if it's a blatant troll or flamebait.

      And contrary to popular belief, journals DO get read.

    2. Re:Offtopic by hadrins · · Score: 1

      Ok, I can see how you would consider this off topic. And I have not ever seen the journals until you brought it up. So I will explain. She was using the computer to do something that didn't directly relate to her job function. I assume that the hospital didn't give employees outside web mail addresses. People pass around emails all the time, "Check out this cool screensaver." It is done everywhere and IT is what keeps me busy. Now, this doesn't make her at fault on her own. Who knows she probably could not read her email at home for the same reason. But the major post above argue points about reading running programs and such and having administrator rights.. By the way you can run a program from a website without admin rights and it runs right out of the temp folder. Then it is a matter of time before the program infects other users. But you can't get some stupid web portal or remote SSL desktop connection to work correctly without it. And there are a lot of database client programs running around that require administrator rights, because they must have read/write access to the systemroot or systemprograms folders. Where does MYSQL and MSSQL install the database by default? C:\Programs files\.... it is hard to get IE settings to work for every user without manually doing it as that user. Quote from the article "That points to a security failing at that hospital, but then they aren't that different from 99 percent of companies out there," Sorry: very frustrating. As an admin you are expected to provide security. But if you block to much or won't give out passwords you are an over protective administrator. You run a risk of being locked up, fired, sued, etc.. I could bitch for hours and hours. I could say something supportive of MS VISTA but then I know I would be a troll. Which would be funny as I refused to use it, and refuse to use IE unless I have too. Personally $33,000.00 is light, the medical professional could loose her job and the hospital is at risk. "3 Wrongs"

  26. Excusable behavior by amn108 · · Score: 1

    Seems like everyone is discussing the more technical details of this incident. I, for one, am much more "interested" in the moralistic side. I find it lowlife that this scumbag could not be a man enough to realize the woman wanted to fuck someone else, and was so desperate as to reduce himself to a stalker, and not even a stalker that you can actually identify as a stalker, but a stalker that is himself "stealthy". After all, planting spyware, provided you don't get caught, does not get more anonymous than that. Wussy. Then again, our "human nature" takes the best of us every single time. Practically, the five disturbing feelings (after Buddhas terminology) - jealosy, anger, pride, ignorance and attachmen/desire - rule our societies.

  27. Is this story a hoax? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Are there any proxies who can filter _all_ sort of packing/zipping/password protected executable files with a 100% hit rate? I doubt it."

    What????

    Don't you know about limited user rights? That prevents ANY installation of ANY program.

    If someone accidentally kills someone else while driving a car, he or she will get less time for manslaughter than this man is supposedly getting for sending an email to a PRIVATE address.

    Is this story a hoax? There is only one other report, and that report is identical: Misdirected Spyware Infects Ohio Hospital. Both apparently came from the IDG News Service. This is the last sentence of both stories: "A spokeswoman with the Akron Children's Hospital was unaware of the case and unable to comment." She was unaware of a case that is 18 months old?

    1. Re:Is this story a hoax? by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't you know about limited user rights? That prevents ANY installation of ANY program.

      You don't need to install software for it to run and do nasty things.

    2. Re:Is this story a hoax? by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      You do need to be able to run it though. The user shouldn't have write access to a drive that programs can run from (set up a separate partition if they need save to the local machine).

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    3. Re:Is this story a hoax? by gitoffmylawn! · · Score: 1

      Is this story a hoax? There is only one other report, and that report is identical...

      Hoax? didn't you RTFA? there's a link to the official news release from the US DOJ.

    4. Re:Is this story a hoax? by mea37 · · Score: 1

      You know, if you'd said "for sending malware to a private address", you'd have made a pretty decent point.

      Instead you tried to downplay the guy's culpability by describing what he did as "sending an email to a private address", and so you look like a tool.

      Funny how that works.

    5. Re:Is this story a hoax? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Gotta love file extension based executability determination. It's not like Unix file attributes had this solved a long time ago.

    6. Re:Is this story a hoax? by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1

      Why everybody on slashdot think they are an expert in security? If the user doesn't have write access to any part of the disk then the mail program will obviously not work (duh). And in most cases you don't need write access to the disk to run code when making an exploit (this was not), so this comment is double-dumb.

    7. Re:Is this story a hoax? by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      I do think I said if the user needs write access create a partition they can write to but that programs can't be executed from. It is technically true that in Windows a program can be executed from memory, but I haven't seen an e-mail program or browser that will do this for an e-mail attachment. They need to save to disk (if only to a temp directory) in order to execute. If a filesystem's permissions are set properly a user can be prevented from executing anything on that filesystem, though they can write to it.

      As for browser based exploits, this remains a problem in the wild. However, if it's possible to use Vista browser sandboxing should help (Vista's not great, but something like sandboxing can protect from a number of exploits).

      Finally, no, I'm not a security expert, I'm a software engineer. However, I do know how to reply to a post without calling the parent post or poster "dumb".

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    8. Re:Is this story a hoax? by sjames · · Score: 1

      If someone accidentally kills someone else while driving a car, he or she will get less time for manslaughter than this man is supposedly getting for sending an email to a PRIVATE address.

      That would be because of the accidental part. It IS reasonable that an intentional action carries a greater weight of responsibility than an unintentional one.

      The fact that he meant to stalk the woman rather than violate the hospital's security isn't much of a claim to innocence.

      The sad part is that if he had "only" compromised her personal computer and stalked her as intended, it would have taken a miracle to get police interested at all.

  28. Think about it by westlake · · Score: 1

    b) The woman for opening it and infecting the computer?

    Yes, for abject stupidity.

    That depends on how well the executable was disguised.

    It depends on whether it launched when she opened the e-mail. It depends on the content and header of the e-mail itself.

    It depends on the security of her home computer. Her own e-mail program or browser. The protection provided by her ISP.

    Think it through.

    Imagine yourself as the specific target of a malicious attachment. Crafted by someone who knew you well. Who "thinks geek."

    I received an e-mail once from a respected open source project that linked directly to the Windows executable. Something I'd never seen from Microsoft.
     

  29. I can't help but wonder by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

    Under what circumstances would anyone consider spyware a prank ?

    --
    What a depressingly stupid machine.
    1. Re:I can't help but wonder by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Me? Under most. But that's me.

      Well, actually I consider it "job security". But, again, that would be me.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  30. So what have we learned? by TranceThrust · · Score: 1

    Build-in a kill switch for when your spyware hits the wrong machines.

  31. Stalking is a crime, stupidity is not by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    We should not allow questions of security or negligence to divert from the fact that the root cause here was criminal activity, stalking, and it is the criminal who should be caught and punished. Otherwise we ultimately end up in the position of saying "well, the mugger was at fault, but it's also the fault of the victim for being 80 years old." This guy is, put simply, ethically challenged bottom feeding scum. Make him do community service emptying bedpans in the hospital for six months. But don't give him the excuse "they let me do it, it's their fault".

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  32. MILTER?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait...What?!?

  33. WHY are our hospitals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    using Windows?!

  34. Headline is too sympathetic by Nerdposeur · · Score: 1

    ...in the hope it would be used to monitor what his former girlfriend was doing on her PC.

    I wouldn't describe that as a "prank." More like an "attempt at stalking." Rearranging her icons would be a prank. Screen-shotting her emails and bank account info is malicious.

  35. Who's at fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The email came from a known source, not a random spam or phish. It was from a person she knew - not a hacker, just an asshole using pre-packaged spyware that any jerk can buy off the internet. He deserves at minimum a fine, and probably some jail time.

    Back in the 90s I used to run an OS 9 Mac-only lab. Our campus security head claimed it was vulnerable to viruses, and I said it was not. He said "Well, I could make a macro virus, attach it to a spreadsheet and send it to you and infect your Mac." I said, "Yes you could, and I would open it, too - because it was from the head of campus security!"

    So, technically he was right but in practice I was right - the Macs were only vulnerable to a small set of malware and we wouldn't open files sent from people we didn't know. If someone you know & trust is bent on screwing you over, is it really your fault?

  36. $33,000 to the hospital for damages? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    I had not read that. In that PDF file, Robert W. Kern, U.S. Attorney, (216) 622-3836, seems to be going to a lot of trouble to downplay the case. It reads VERY differently than the story to which Slashdot linked. Maybe he wants to convict without having people understanding and protesting the conviction.

    Quote: "Graham, who is set to formally enter a guilty plea on Sept. 30 to one count of illegally intercepting electronic communications, will pay $33,000 to the hospital for damages caused by the incident. He faces a maximum sentence of five years in prison. "

    The hospital didn't use even the most minimum methods to prevent infection, so he must pay $33,000 for problems he certainly did not intend to cause?

    1. Re:$33,000 to the hospital for damages? by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      "The hospital didn't use even the most minimum methods to prevent infection, so he must pay $33,000 for problems he certainly did not intend to cause?"

      Which he nevertheless caused.

  37. virtualize by firewood · · Score: 1

    Doctors demand (and get) access to the malware laden web from hospital PCs? No problem.

    The hospital PC's should have been running linux, with the hospital records and all outside web access restricted to separated virtual machines (both running Windows if so required by the hospital record software). Or running as thin clients, using X or remote desktop access to VM's running in the hospital's server closet. Outside web access VMs get infected? Re-image 'em. Maybe nightly for good measure. No shared data with the HIPPI record access VMs anyway. The malware on the VM can only scrape its virtual display, and see nothing in the other VMs.

    Or just junk the PC's as they exceed useful life, and replace them with more power efficient thin client boxen with no HD's to infect/clean.

  38. Sure it's not you? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

    I've been given 'orders' like that also, but have managed to persuade the person.

    Are you sure that your manner, tone, and ability to explain complex technical problems isn't the issue?

    Your situation sounds rather unbelievable. But I've only worked for one hospital, so my experience is fairly limited. Was this before HIPAA?

    1. Re:Sure it's not you? by berzerke · · Score: 1

      First example, yes it was before HIPAA, not that HIPAA has any real teeth. The second example is not a medical business. And I have tried to persuade them. My boss believes me. It's his boss that is the problem. My boss is apparently under orders himself.

  39. My stoopid question is... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

    Howcome this girl was checking her personal email on a work computer? Most jobsites I've visited have a policy to NOT allow this to happen.

    --
    Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    1. Re:My stoopid question is... by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      oh hey guys, they BLAME THE VICTIM guy is here.

  40. Health reform by mldi · · Score: 1

    Maybe they should tack required tighter-than-a-nun's-asshole network security in anything dealing with medical patients onto that massive Health Reform bill they're trying to beat into our skulls.

    --
    If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  41. Secretly wonders: by hadrins · · Score: 1

    How many of you read and posted replies during working hours? How many of you consider slashdot.org related to your job enough that you justify reading and posting? How many of you are going through a separation right now? How many of you read your personal email at work?? Yeah, I get joke emails from people all the time and guess what? I see all the corp. domains in the cc: list. You think, patient data is a problem? So what if Mr Jones is getting a penis extension. Oh Yeah, When you go into work Monday and start to surf the web... (To do whatever. News. Sports, Personals, and/or Porn). What are you going to do if it is all blocked?

  42. Analogy by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Okay. The hospital CEO was lying in a roadway, taking a nap. Someone in a car ran over him. Should the driver go to jail?