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Micropayments For News — Holy Grail Or Delusion?

newscloud writes "Harvard's Nieman Journalism Lab sounds off on micropayments for news content, on the side of the argument that says they are a dangerous delusion: 'What does it mean for journalism? It could mean charging for different platforms, for early alerts, for special members-only access to certain premium or value-added content. But I'm pretty sure of one thing: It doesn't mean charging people fractions of a cent to read a news story, no matter how sophisticated the process.' The article provides good context on the debate over micropayments from a 2003 piece by Clay Shirky, to recent analysis and opinion by Masnick, Outing, Graham, and Reifman. Google's micropayment plans were recently discussed here."

234 comments

  1. Premium content by sopssa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the content is premium content, something that I know is more valuable or interesting than elsewhere, then I have no problem paying for it. This is the reason people for pay for Wall Street Journal and the likes too - they get more out of it and the writers are specialized in the area.

    For everyday news, no. I want opinions and better writing than just simply telling the news.

    1. Re:Premium content by slashqwerty · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If they don't accept anonymous payments I won't pay for the content regardless of how good it is. The technology for anonymous electronic cash has been around for more than a decade. If a vendor wants my money they had better respect my privacy.

    2. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The fun thing is that this is mainly a US problem. For example in Russia the most used payment method is WebMoney, where you define exactly what information is public about your account and *by default* everything is private. All the information other party sees is the "purse number" of yours, ie. Z435903486439 or similar.

      And you can pay for pretty much every service with it, from buying credit to your mobile phone to doing online purchases. You can also get credit card that is linked to your account. And the system is a lot more secure than PayPal too, with possibility to use keyfiles and sms verification for transactions along others. And theres none of such cases where PayPal just decides to lock out the user account. It is actually your account.

      Sometimes its funny how much US is lacking behind on some things.

    3. Re:Premium content by noundi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the content is premium content, something that I know is more valuable or interesting than elsewhere, then I have no problem paying for it. This is the reason people for pay for Wall Street Journal and the likes too - they get more out of it and the writers are specialized in the area.

      For everyday news, no. I want opinions and better writing than just simply telling the news.

      On the contrary, I want news -- instead of this ridiculous sensationalism. And I don't want it filtered through anybody in terms of opinions. If Jimmy, 5, falls down the well I want the news to report: 5-year-old Jimmy falls down the well, and not: WELLS SLAYING OUR CHILDREN, GOVERNMENT IGNORING.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    4. Re:Premium content by slim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the contrary, I want news -- instead of this ridiculous sensationalism. And I don't want it filtered through anybody in terms of opinions.

      In which case you want a Reuters feed, or similar.

      Analysis, opinion, these are value-adds. Many people *don't* just want to know what's happened. They want to know what other people think about it - people who are paid to be knowledgable, or merely entertainingly opinionated or outrageous.

      Ridiculous sensationalism isn't to my taste -- but lots of people seem prepared to pay for it.

    5. Re:Premium content by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's truly premium content, then I can see justifying paying for it.

      However, the real problem is that most newspapers think that their editorial content is almost as good as the WSJ and the like. But the sad truth is that it's nowhere near that. It's not indepth, it's not researched, it's not thorough, hell, it's not usually spell checked. And every newsroom I've ever been in believes they have great content. In spite of the fact that most stories are PR pieces or written by someone else who emailed it to the features, sports or news desk.

      And yet the newspapers think that they'll make more money by putting this crap behind a pay wall. In reality, they'll just get fewer hits on their website, and thus ads, and will end up lowering their revenue way more than what they charge for access to their 'premium' content.

      If they wanted to actually increase revenue, there's a simple solution.
      1. Create compelling content
      2. Charge a premium for ads around that compelling content.

      Compelling content = more readership which means more ad impressions which means more ad revenue. Yes, compelling content is hard. But it's the only way for newspapers to make it in the future.

      Yet every paper sees it as giving content away for free. And they're all idiots. They provide a real service - information. They just need to figure out how & who to charge to optimize their bottom line. Because advertisers, especially local ones that are impacted by that compelling content, are willing to pay for good quality ad hits.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    6. Re:Premium content by MadnessASAP · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sometimes its not funny at all how much US is lacking behind on everything.

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    7. Re:Premium content by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      I don't even have a problem paying by the story if the charge is 1 or 2 cents. But as clueless as most newspapers and old media are, I suspect they'll do something monumentally stupid like trying to charge big subscription fees ("All you can eat for $100 a year!")or trying to charge $1 or more per story. They won't get the lesson that iTunes taught to the old media in music (that the old $15-a-CD model is dead but that people will still pay a REASONABLE amount to buy a song). They need a shift in thinking.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    8. Re:Premium content by sopssa · · Score: 1

      It doesn't necessarily have to be ridiculous sensationalism however. Lots of people read slashdot for the comments, ie. what other people think, what more information they can give to the subject or make funny jokes.

      There are also news sites that tend to give more information about the subject, or actually add valid opinions and analysis to it. If its quality, I can easily pay for it. I wouldn't however pay for sensationalism, I keep away from such sites already.

    9. Re:Premium content by bickerdyke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Analysis, opinion, these are value-adds.

      as is filtering itself. I bet even the GP wants his news filtered from every bag of rice that tipped over in china, or the results of some back-country bake-off. (Which might be really important news over there, but not over here.) But not every news from over there is unimportant over here. So you as everyone wants your news filtered. By someone who is likely to share the same important/unimportant threshold as you.

      --
      bickerdyke
    10. Re:Premium content by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It's not in depth, it's not researched, it's not thorough, hell, it's not usually spell checked.

      I don't want it spell checked, I want it proofread. Spell checkers don't work; the best thay can do is catch a typoo.

    11. Re:Premium content by Zolodoco · · Score: 1

      Does US commercial journalism or editorial writing have any integrity or value to the public? No, especially the editorial writing. I don't see any reason to throw money away.

    12. Re:Premium content by multisync · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you're going to presume to "fix" someone's post, at least make the effort to get your html right. Your post is the one that's broken.

      Time to retire this boring meme

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    13. Re:Premium content by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "The fun thing is that this is mainly a US problem. For example in Russia the most used payment method is WebMoney, where you define exactly what information is public about your account and *by default* everything is private. All the information other party sees is the "purse number" of yours, ie. Z435903486439 or similar."

      That's privacy, NOT anonymity. WebMoney still has your data, and they promise not to let it out into the wild. But data breach or court order or "Oh, we changed our minds" exposes your data.

      The GP was talking about anonymous transactions, where the intermediary doesn't have that information in the first place. Electronic cash.

      There's a huge difference.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    14. Re:Premium content by drouse · · Score: 1

      And yet the newspapers think that they'll make more money by putting this crap behind a pay wall. In reality, they'll just get fewer hits on their website, and thus ads, and will end up lowering their revenue way more than what they charge for access to their 'premium' content.

      Let me tell you a secret, from the point of view of "most newspapers" the paywall is to get people to start buying the paper again, not an attempt to make money on the Internet. Print ads and sale papers (from Target and the like) still make more money than digital ads and there is a lot of pressure to keep subscription numbers up to attract those ads.

      Because advertisers, especially local ones that are impacted by that compelling content, are willing to pay for good quality ad hits.

      I'll disagree. Real Estate and Car Companies like advertising on the Internet (through Google, mostly), but have become very cynical after being hit with every single web-based-ads sales pitch in the universe. The vibe I get is that 90% of all their referrals are crap. As for the smaller companies, most of them really don't need an advertising campaign with global (or even regional) reach, or they don't have effective websites to refer to, or have the belief that advertising on the web (in terms of banners and text on a non-search website) is ignored.

      What's the answer? If I knew I wouldn't be posting it on Slashdot :-) Maybe some kind of City Guide (yellow pages+wikipedia+restaurant menus) with news as a sideline (to keep the updated content high and keep the search engines coming back).

      --
      -- I browse at +5 with stripped sigs ... Ha! Ha!
    15. Re:Premium content by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      And yet the newspapers think that they'll make more money by putting this crap behind a pay wall. In reality, they'll just get fewer hits on their website, and thus ads, and will end up lowering their revenue way more than what they charge for access to their 'premium' content.

      Let me tell you a secret, from the point of view of "most newspapers" the paywall is to get people to start buying the paper again, not an attempt to make money on the Internet. Print ads and sale papers (from Target and the like) still make more money than digital ads and there is a lot of pressure to keep subscription numbers up to attract those ads.

      Hence the reason I said they're all idiots. Charge more for internet ads, and vet them to make sure they're effective ads.
      Advertisers don't care about subscriber numbers. They care about sales from their ads.

      Because advertisers, especially local ones that are impacted by that compelling content, are willing to pay for good quality ad hits.

      I'll disagree. Real Estate and Car Companies like advertising on the Internet (through Google, mostly), but have become very cynical after being hit with every single web-based-ads sales pitch in the universe. The vibe I get is that 90% of all their referrals are crap. As for the smaller companies, most of them really don't need an advertising campaign with global (or even regional) reach, or they don't have effective websites to refer to, or have the belief that advertising on the web (in terms of banners and text on a non-search website) is ignored.

      What's the answer? If I knew I wouldn't be posting it on Slashdot :-) Maybe some kind of City Guide (yellow pages+wikipedia+restaurant menus) with news as a sideline (to keep the updated content high and keep the search engines coming back).

      Hence the reason I said they're all idiots. Charge more for internet ads, and vet them to make sure they're effective ads.
      Advertisers don't care about hits. They care about sales from their ads.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's privacy, NOT anonymity. WebMoney still has your data, and they promise not to let it out into the wild. But data breach or court order or "Oh, we changed our minds" exposes your data.

      Actually, WebMoney has different levels of passports. The first Alias Passport doesn't require personal data. You get Formal Passport when you enter it, and the rest types of passports when you go to one of the various verifications offices to verify your identity.

      Never the less, you can use the system with Alias Passport and for normal transactions its just aswell usable, so yes, it offers anonymity too. Loans, acting as official merchant in their MegaStock marketplace and other fancier stuff only requires verified account.

      You can load the account anonymously too, just walk in to some kiosk and buy one of their WM Cards.

      And like you see from the Megastock site, this is a widely used payment system in Russia to pay for mobile phone loading, cable tv, internet and so on that has also good security like options like keyfiles and so on. US is lacking behind.

    17. Re:Premium content by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      I'd be happy with spell checking. Proofreading/editing would probably be considered a premium service.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    18. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... or make funny jokes.

      Here, fixed that for you.

    19. Re:Premium content by EatHam · · Score: 1

      For example in Russia the most used payment method is WebMoney [wmtransfer.com], where you define exactly what information is public about your account and *by default* everything is private.

      I have it on very good authority that in Russia, money pays you.

    20. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... or make lousy jokes.

      Here, fixed that for you.

      Here, fixed that for myself.

    21. Re:Premium content by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Also, WM's has very small commissions on payments. Far smaller than CC processing fees.

      It's actually possible to use it for 1 cent transactions.

    22. Re:Premium content by jafac · · Score: 1

      Exactly: and to expand on what you said . . . the reason Newspapers are experiencing a decline in recent years is not necessarily because of the "internet", lack of micropayments, etc.

      it's due to competition from online journalists, and the new power consumers have to easily find better sources of news. Before, you'd go out on the street, find the paper boy, and buy one, out of a choice of two, maybe (gasp!) three different papers. Now, everyone's got the choice from thousands of different sources online. The quality of the content may or may not actually be better. But readers can target content they're looking for. If it's a model of supply and demand, demand just got much more efficient with the internet. Of course; put up paywalls, and you're going to end up hurting yourself more than helping. The providers who don't use them, will continue to win. Paywalls are a failed experiment. So sad these people just don't learn from such recent and catastrophic failure.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    23. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think anyone uses galley proofs for newspapers (or even for the vast majority of books) anymore.

    24. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shame they can't learn from Nutz and Voltz. I subscribed to the magazine, and if you click the "rebill me automatically" button (not the default), you are a member, at no additional immediate cost, and have access to an huge number of back issues available as non-DRMed .pdfs. That's a great resource. I'll continue to subscribe.

      If the NYT had a wonderful online searchable database, and would deliver just the sections I want as plain .pdfs to my Inbox, with an good "send me a back issue" option for members to get the occasional print copy, they'd have another customer, perhaps millions. The Internet isn't ruining anything, greedy stagnant business people are.

    25. Re:Premium content by blincoln · · Score: 1

      All the information other party sees is the "purse number" of yours, ie. Z435903486439 or similar.

      Does each customer-vendor relationship get a different purse number? IE if I buy something from Amazon.com do they see Z435903486439, but when I buy something from Astrophysics Emporium or wherever do they instead see e.g. Z684987784253? Because otherwise it would be trivial for enough data to be built up eventually to identify you.

      Having a unique ID per transaction would be even better.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    26. Re:Premium content by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      If it's truly premium content, then I can see justifying paying for it.

      However, the real problem is that most newspapers think that their editorial content is almost as good as the WSJ and the like. But the sad truth is that it's nowhere near that. It's not indepth, it's not researched, it's not thorough, hell, it's not usually spell checked. And every newsroom I've ever been in believes they have great content. In spite of the fact that most stories are PR pieces or written by someone else who emailed it to the features, sports or news desk.

      And yet the newspapers think that they'll make more money by putting this crap behind a pay wall. In reality, they'll just get fewer hits on their website, and thus ads, and will end up lowering their revenue way more than what they charge for access to their 'premium' content.

      If they wanted to actually increase revenue, there's a simple solution. 1. Create compelling content 2. Charge a premium for ads around that compelling content.

      Compelling content = more readership which means more ad impressions which means more ad revenue. Yes, compelling content is hard. But it's the only way for newspapers to make it in the future.

      Yet every paper sees it as giving content away for free. And they're all idiots. They provide a real service - information. They just need to figure out how & who to charge to optimize their bottom line. Because advertisers, especially local ones that are impacted by that compelling content, are willing to pay for good quality ad hits.

      If the content is subsidized with advertisements I'm not going to pay for it.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    27. Re:Premium content by MadnessASAP · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Funny, I can's seem to find a tag in the HTML standard I notice the tags which ARE in the HTML standard seem to work just fine. But I digress, I'm assuming that like most Americans you are profoundly arrogant about your own country and have simply setup a misstep on my part with slashcode as a straw man to attack me with.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    28. Re:Premium content by drouse · · Score: 1

      Hence the reason I said they're all idiots. Charge more for internet ads, and vet them to make sure they're effective ads.
      Advertisers don't care about subscriber numbers. They care about sales from their ads.

      Eh, well, I probably can't argue that they aren't all idiots. :-)

      But as far as I can tell, no non-national newspaper has been able to charge enough and/or show objective data demonstrating the ads are effective enough.

      Again, it seem that unless the ads are provided as a result of a search, most people ignore them in favor of what they are searching for. Companies still use sale papers and print ads, I'm assuming, because their research tells them that people are more likely to browse a print product (or just habit, who knows).

      And I'm not saying that it can't be done -- I'm saying there is a nice career opportunity as a consultant if you can make it happen.

      --
      -- I browse at +5 with stripped sigs ... Ha! Ha!
    29. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous electronic "cash" means that not even the bank can link a deposit to a withdrawl. Only the very few systems deployed with technology from David Chaum or Stefan Brands companies have this feature.

    30. Re:Premium content by Knara · · Score: 1

      If the content is subsidized with advertisements I'm not going to pay for it.

      this seems to presume that you believe that if the content production cost is not wholly covered by advertising revenue, that the news organization should just eat the difference.

      there's a great deal of important news that doesn't get a lot of eyeballs, after all

    31. Re:Premium content by Knara · · Score: 1

      "All you can eat for $100 a year!"

      I constantly see people advocating for an "all you can eat" music download model (the more I say that phrase, the more I realize it's past lunchtime). How would the newspaper be doing wrong by going to that model?

    32. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, "fixed that for you" really is a completely worn-out joke, and you look like an idiot for using it. You also look like an idiot for fucking up the HTML. And for being an idiot.

    33. Re:Premium content by multisync · · Score: 1

      Funny, I can's seem to find a <quote> tag in the HTML standard

      Try looking for the <blockquote> tag.

      I'm assuming that like most Americans

      You assume a lot

      you are profoundly arrogant about your own country

      That's a pretty broad generalization

      and have simply setup a misstep on my part with slashcode as a straw man to attack me with

      I don't think Slashcode has anything to do with it. The same page you used to post your comment has a list of "Allowed HTML," and that list includes the <blockquote> tag (as well as the <strong> tag, which I'm pretty sure is preferred over the <b> tag). I'm guessing you simply neglected to close your tag, which is why the text you quoted as well as the part you contributed all appeared in the same block of quoted text.

      Also, I don't think I "attacked" you, but if you feel that way I apologize.

      The law of the Slashdot jungle is clear: if you are going to be a spelling/grammar nazi, you had better make sure your spelling/grammar is perfect, or you will be ridiculed.

      By the same token, if you are going to use the tired, boring, unoriginal "fixed that for ya" meme, at least preview your own post and make sure it isn't "broken" in an obvious way.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    34. Re:Premium content by dissy · · Score: 1

      this seems to presume that you believe that if the content production cost is not wholly covered by advertising revenue, that the news organization should just eat the difference.

      It's actually the other way around.

      If your content is worth selling, then sell it for a price to recoup your costs AND make profit.

      Do not sell it at me at a loss and then bitch and moan I am stealing your crap by not responding to the hundreds of ads trying to get more money out of me after the fact I already paid your (first) chosen price.

      If your price is too high that no one will buy it when set correctly, then either perhaps your competition really is making a much better product than you, or your product just isn't seen as valuable or desirable to the public as you thought, and ads will not change that.

      It doesn't matter how awesome of a product you have to sell. If you aren't capable of taking two numbers, subtracting them, and seeing if the result is above zero, then you will not do well at a business.

      If something costs me $10 to make, and I sell it to you for less than $10, that is called me screwing up. Me screwing up does not give me the right or excuse to call you up daily every day afterward and beg you for donations or more money, because you already paid and the deal is done. nd if I did do such a thing, you have every right to be annoyed with me.

      Likewise, if I purchase a car for very cheap, and later the ex-owner comes back realizing he could have gotten another thousand dollars out of me. He should not be shocked when I am both upset at him, and chasing him off my property.

      Most places use advertisements for exactly and only that purpose.

    35. Re:Premium content by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I don't think he was complaining about the concept of "all you can eat", but the price. An online news-"paper" subscription should cost far less than a physical subscription. Both because they chop out a ton of work to get it to your door, and because people expect to pay far less for a bunch of photons flowing from a monitor, than they would for an actual physical good.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    36. Re:Premium content by julesh · · Score: 1

      Sometimes its funny how much US is lacking behind on some things.

      Not just the US, there's no services like this in most of western Europe either. The reason? It looks to our governments like a money laundering scheme.

      Which, to be fair, my understanding is that it is quite frequently used as a money laundering scheme (e.g. 1, 2)... it's just that the Russian government doesn't particularly care. At some point, though, I suspect they'll start caring, and you'll be in pretty-much the same boat we are.

    37. Re:Premium content by Knara · · Score: 1

      As noted in many other posts here, the real cost is the content creation. Economy of scale makes transport the same, but making good content will still cost a lot.

      Meatspace newspaper delivery for the NYT runs ~$50 for a year for me. I'd expect it prolly to be right around there for an unlimited online subscription, too.

    38. Re:Premium content by Knara · · Score: 1

      Do not sell it at me at a loss and then bitch and moan I am stealing your crap by not responding to the hundreds of ads trying to get more money out of me after the fact I already paid your (first) chosen price.

      If you are purchasing access to a service, you are paying the agreed upon price and subject to the agreed upon terms of use. You are, of course, free to not use that service at all, but to complain that you payed "x" and the company spent (x+y) which they make up for by "y" amount of advertising revenue is silly.

      I'm assuming that you read no magazines, newspapers, and watch no commercial media at all with your philosophy as presented. Right?

    39. Re:Premium content by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Your correct, though I'm guessing digital distribution is still a bit cheaper than physical distribution. This might not be a great difference, but it still probably exists.

      My second point still stands though. Your correct that most the money goes to "content" (a rare thing in many papers these days, I'm guessing most of my papers money goes to an AP subscription), but people will still expect it to be cheaper, so they really can't expect to hit the same distribution without lowering their costs.

      I'd never pay the same amount for a digital album as a physical CD, nor would I pay the same amount for an eBook as a hardcover. This is conditioned into most of us.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    40. Re:Premium content by sharperguy · · Score: 1

      Or they can use their existing wealth to lobby the state into brining in some regulation or other (in the same of a good cause, of course) which effectively gives them an unfair advantage allowing them to increase profits without improving service like every other "successful" business in the last however many decades.

      --
      "sudo rm -rf your-face"
    41. Re:Premium content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Used to be premium content was called a "scoop", and it was advantageous for a news organization to get it out as fast as possible. Now it's news for the privileged. There's an irony in there somewhere.

  2. Here's a crazy idea... by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll just get my news fix at free sites.

    1. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's the thing, they think we want content. Well, we do, but we've never paid for content. I can read the local paper at McDonald's or any number of other places for free. I won't buy news, but I'll buy a newspaper once in a while, and it will get passed around the office for everyone else to read for free.

      I guess that makes me a pirate in the eyes of "content providers".

      That's the thing -- we've NEVER paid for content, we pay for its container, whether it be a book, a newspaper, an album, or a DVD. We were always free to tape friends' LPs and we were always free to record TV shows and movies on VHS (well, since the advent of the VCR anyway). We didn't buy music, we bought records. We didn't buy movies, we bought tapes. We didn't buy news, we bought newspapers.

      Now that everything's digital they want us to pay two bucks for a song and you don't even get a 45, they want a buck for a newspaper and we don't even get the paper itself?

      Listen up, young people -- don't let the greedy moneygrubbers steal your money buy letting them sell you something that has always been free. Bits are like air; they're free and always have been. If you want to sell air you have to wrap a scuba tank or a balloon around it. If you want to sell bits you likewise have to have a container, like a CD or an LP or a sheaf of paper.

      These idiots think I'll buy something that's completely free from a myriad of sources. Must be some good shit they're smoking!

    2. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by natehoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Eventually, some portion of what you are paying for the container goes to pay for the content. In the case of newspapers, it's actually a significant portion. A newspaper costs a few pennies to print, and even with delivery and markup, the bulk of the money the newspaper company is paid is for content, not the printing of hieroglyphs on thinly-pounded dead trees.

      Also, digital distribution is far cheaper, but it isn't free.

      I agree that digital music and other information sources are more expensive than they seemingly should be. But micropayments might help solve that problem. Headlines and a brief summary are either free or available on a really dirt cheap subscription (a dollar a month, say). If you want to read a full article, you pay a penny. Read an entire newspaper's worth of articles of interest to you, it'll cost you a quarter or so. Compare that to the 75 cents to a dollar that a newspaper costs today on paper, and that's probably a pretty accurate reflection of how much of your money today goes into content.

      A lot of the free news sites are actually making money on ad revenues, and hopefully that will support decent journalism, but I know my local paper is laying off people (including reporters) left and right because they aren't being paid enough to reprint their news, and print subscriptions are down. Someone's gotta pay a reporter to go out and collect the news, and analyze it, and write it up. Someone's gotta be paid to fact-check, and spell-check, and digitize photos. Someon'e gotta get paid for decent layout (whether it be print or web). Someone's gotta get paid to maintain the web servers and the Internet connection.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    3. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this "container" you speak of, I like to think about it as *bandwidth*. People are, and always have, paid for the bandwidth associated with getting content from its producers to its consumers. Not for the content, but for the bandwidth. Simple as that.

    4. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by sopssa · · Score: 1

      So your argument basically is that you want something physical? That's a little bit hard with digital content.

      Now instead of talking about not getting the physical paper, you could had said that instead of buying single news stories, you'd would rather buy a subscription to the paper. I would if the price was right, I wouldn't mind paying $1-5 dollars a month to some of the sites I have in my rss reader. This is even more true for news sites that are my work or hobby related, which I have special interest to. Frankly, lots of sites would be dropped too, and the first ones to go would be the generic every-day news sites.

      However, I think the normal newspapers will stick around for long time still. Lots of people still like to read the actual newspaper. But it will probably go over time to more electronic format, even if you read it from the like of eBooks reader or so, when young people grow and older people that have got used to their habits go.

    5. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the thing -- we've NEVER paid for content, we pay for its container, whether it be a book, a newspaper, an album, or a DVD.

      I kind of sympathise with your angle, but it needs firming up. A blank notepad is cheaper than a novel or a newspaper. A DVD-R is cheaper than a DVD. So we *are* paying for content. ... and the content is far from being free to create.

      Yet, to me at least, the content is less valuable without the packaging. A printed book is worth more to me than a PDF, simply because I can read it in more comfort. It's the combination of content and format that has value.

      The problem comes as digital formats become more ubiquitous. If I owned an eBook reader - a better one than is currently available - then possibly a digital copy of a book or newspaper would be worth more to me than a printed book. This is already happening for music: lots of people actually prefer to have MP3s instead of CDs.

      If digital distribution is the future, *and* we somehow believe that digital copies should not be paid for, then how does content get financed? I don't know the answer. I'm fascinated in seeing how things work out.

      For news, at least, I think that competition will push consumer prices towards zero, such that pay sites won't be able to compete.

    6. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by slim · · Score: 1

      People are, and always have, paid for the bandwidth associated with getting content from its producers to its consumers. Not for the content, but for the bandwidth. Simple as that.

      Simple, but not true.

      The numbers in what follows probably aren't accurate, but the spirit is.

      If I pay $2 for a newspaper at my local shop, and the newspaper gets another $1 from advertisers based on the expectation that I may glance at their ads, that's $3 in total being paid for the newspaper.

      $1.00 goes to the shop, which will cover overheads such as heat and light for the shop, staff costs, distribution, as well as some profit for the shop.
      $1.00 covers materials, printing, etc - manufacturing costs.

      All of the above is "bandwidth" as you put it.

      The remaining $1 *is* for the content. That stuff doesn't just pop into existence. People take payment for creating it, and that money comes from somewhere.

      I repeat - the numbers could be wrong, but the spirit is right.

      People have always paid for the combination of content and bandwidth.

      Now that we pay separately for bandwidth - our ISP subs - we should expect our content to come cheaper, but not free. I don't think charging money directly for news content is practical. But as previously, is can be funded by ads, or by other models. At the end of the day, someone has to be spending money, and that money has to reach the journalists.

    7. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Eventually, some portion of what you are paying for the container goes to pay for the content.

      But that's irrelevant to the purchaser. The content is the carrot to get the purchaser to buy the container. It doesn't matter to the purchaser what the seller spends the money on. As a purchaser, I'm not buying news, I'm buying a newspaper.

    8. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Sure, assuming you're buying a newspaper. But you're assuming that changing the container eliminates the cost of the content too.

      The newspaper is the container, and the news is the content.

      If you read an article online, the web page is the container and the news is still the content.

      If you remove the container or switch to a cheaper one, there's still a cost to make the content, and the company that develops that content either makes money developing it or they stop developing it.

      Of the cost of a $1 newspaper, at least 25 cents of that, if not more, is going into content (reporters, editors, office workers, computers and office space, cameras, electricity, etc). Some of it goes into printing and paper, some into distribution, and some into retail markup so stores will carry it.

      Even if the container (newspaper) can be reprinted and distributed for free, there is a cost for the content that went into it. The news company wants to sell a certain number of copies of that content at their asking price. Remove the container and you've removed that portion of the cost. But there's still a cost of developing it which ends up dictating the price the content developer charges to recoup their costs and make a profit.

      If they sell enough copies or more, then 3. Profit.

      If they don't sell enough, they have one of four choices:

      1. Tighten their subscription model so everyone who reads needs to pay - prevent copying through DRM of some type. Currently, this DRM is handled by the fact that you are buying an expensive-to-copy dead tree edition. Sure, you can share it, and a lot of people do, but there are still enough copies sold that profit ensues.

      2. Lower the price in the hopes of selling more units to make up for it (which scales well since the container is practically free on this model, but assumes that more than 1,000,000 people will pay a penny instead of 100,000 paying ten cents each).

      3. Raise the price hoping to extract more money from their loyal customer base (reverse the math in #2).

      4. Lay off employees (including reporters) or hire less experienced reporters or outsource all reporting. In any of these cases, there's a good chance either the quantity or quality of generated news stories will be reduced.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    9. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by natehoy · · Score: 1

      One important side note in all of this. At no point am I espousing any of the four options. If people continue to treat newsgathering as a "free enterprise" that has no costs, it will become that, and we'll end up with option #4 as a default option.

      Then we'll end up with news organizations supported entirely by advertisers, beholden to their patrons instead of their readers and the truth they demand. And newsgathering will consist largely of reading the only sources that can be freely (or very cheaply) be milked. Social media.

      News will drop from full-time reporters on staff in Washington reporting the daily grind in Congress to reprints of people tweeting about how cool America's Got Talent was last night.

      In a way, we're already headed in that direction. People gripe about how the quality of news has dropped below the point where they are willing to pay for it, but it's largely BECAUSE people are unwilling to pay for it that quality newsgathering is going away.

      News companies are for-profit companies. If they continue their craft, they must be paid by someone and make a profit.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    10. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      How has content be financed since it started? They didn't call them soap operas because hey, everyone just loves soap! Advertising can be done without being as invasive and annoying as many companies seem to think it has to be. They're just going to have to adjust to no longer having a captive audience, and having to do things to attract attention rather than ram shit down our throats. I can't see that as a bad thing.

    11. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      That's the thing -- we've NEVER paid for content, we pay for its container, whether it be a book, a newspaper, an album, or a DVD.

      This is absolute nonsense. The next thing you'll be telling me is that when you pay to go to a concert, you're only paying for the actual paper ticket rather than the "content" of the performance. Or maybe you're paying for the privilege of admission to a concert hall, but never actually paying for the "content" of the performance on stage.

      Seriously? Of course you're actually paying to hear that performance, just like you're paying to be able to hear a specific performance from a CD, DVD, etc. Sure, there's the overhead cost of the medium, but that's not why you buy the ticket or the CD or the DVD or even the newspaper.

      We were always free to tape friends' LPs and we were always free to record TV shows and movies on VHS (well, since the advent of the VCR anyway). We didn't buy music, we bought records. We didn't buy movies, we bought tapes. We didn't buy news, we bought newspapers.

      In the past, a couple friends made copies of something. Nobody cared. But the content wasn't "free"; it's just the potential for abuse was small. However, if you went on the street and started selling bootlegged copies taped off your friends' LPs, you could very well be charged with copyright infringement. Now, with digital distribution, the same guy who just made a single tape of an LP could also make that recording available to thousands or millions of people with a few clicks.

      Don't get me wrong. I hate the RIAA and its tactics (as well as related groups). But your imaginary distinction between form and content never existed. It's just that in the past it was too hard for the average Joe to distribute bootlegged content on a massive scale.

    12. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The next thing you'll be telling me is that when you pay to go to a concert, you're only paying for the actual paper ticket rather than the "content" of the performance

      When I go to a concert I'm not buying anything. I'm paying for a service, just like when my employer pays me for my time or I pay a barber to cut my hair or tip my bartender. When I buy that band's CD I'm buying a CD. When I hear them on the radio, it's free. When I tape it off the radio it's free. The content is free, the CD and service (concert) are not.

      In the past, a couple friends made copies of something. Nobody cared. But the content wasn't "free"; it's just the potential for abuse was small.

      Well, it's hardly abuse if it's legal, and in the 1970s copying tapes was explicitly legalized (it's since been outlawed). And if it was so harmless, why did Jack Valenti as head of the MPAA say that "The VCR is to the movie industry what Jack the Ripper was to women"? The fact is that the music labels decried taping and even lied on album covers that it was illegal, when it had specifically been legalized.

      And distributing bootlegs WAS a problem; I remember an incident in the early '70s where Willy Nelson (I think it was him, long time ago) got in trouble when he went into a gas station and found bootleg copies of his stuff for sale and trashed the place. IIRC both he and the proprieter went to jail. Commercial copyright infringement isn't just illegal, it's wrong.

      Since KSHE changed their format in 1967 and became the world's first FM stereo rock station, they've had a feature called "the seventh day" from the station's beginning and still continue today. They play seven whole uncut albums and even cue the listener to get his tape recorder ready, and still do. This is in St Louis, with a population of millions able to hear and record the show. See Birth of a label-sanctioned pirate radio station

      When Ted Nugent's Stranglehold album came out I had it on tape a full week before it was available for sale - KSHE had played it, and I'd taped it. As that album kicked ass I bought the LP after it was for sale. This is how a lot of young "pirates" use P2P; someone will recommend something, and they want to listen before they shell out their hard earned dosh.

      The internet has changed a lot of things, but as to noncomercial copyright infringement the only thing it changed was to give the media moguls something to bitch to congress about.

    13. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      They're just going to have to adjust to no longer having a captive audience, and having to do things to attract attention rather than ram shit down our throats. I can't see that as a bad thing.

      Most news papers are already doing this, and this has contributed to their shrinking distribution. My local paper has shrunk their news sections constantly over the last 3 or so years, while expanding the "not relevant" sections constantly. My news paper now tells me that "Guam is a desirable tourist destination", but doesn't say much about anything happening in local or national news, outside of some biased political hit pieces. Global news is almost completely gone, unless we're currently at war with the country. The news stories they do have all have an AP byline, with very few stories being original or local. But they do spend a lot of attention on telling me what tile flooring is the rave this season. Needless to say I canceled my subscription (why get a news paper that doesn't have news?), as have most the people I know.

      And if you drop your subscription, they will call you 4 times a week at dinner time, offering a "free" subscription, which makes me LESS likely to ever pick it up again. Same story if you drop down to a weekend subscription.

      Hell, it isn't even useful for the help-wanted, or classifieds anymore. The want ads have shrunk for a nice 10 pages, to one page, shared with classified and pets for sale. Half of these classified are for telemarketers for the PAPER! itself, the other half is for working in a kiosk selling subscriptions to the paper.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    14. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      They're not adjusting. They're just throwing new content at the wall, trying to make something keep the newspaper around. That won't work. They need to make their paper relevant. Physical coupons that work in local stores. A website that encourages local people to contribute and read often. A "tourism" section with Guam is stupid because you can get that from Guam's official tourism site. They need to give you something that is relevant to you, and to the community you live in.

      I think you and I agree for the most part... I just don't think that papers are trying to adjust. They just want to throw slightly different shit at the wall in the same formula, and wonder why it doesn't work. They need an entirely new formula.

    15. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You make some good points about various historical issues which may be relevant if we were debating the RIAA and MPAA's policies. I agree that there has been a lot of inconsistency in their positions over the years, but (as I said in my previous reply), I'm not trying to defend them. I'll admit that I overstated (or perhaps didn't clarify) some things, though, and you've brought a lot of great points out.

      That said, I'm really confused about the places you decide to split hairs. For example:

      Commercial copyright infringement isn't just illegal, it's wrong.

      I have to admit I was surprised by that statement in context of your post. I'm guessing that you want distribution of copyrighted content to be allowed as long as no one is making a profit? What does "commercial" mean here? Anytime that someone accepts any compensation in return for providing a copy of a copyrighted work? Or does it have to be on a large scale? What if someone facilitates commercial infringement by making content available in a form that makes it easier to copy? I'm just trying to understand where you draw the line.

      By the way, I'm sympathetic to your view, and I understand that much of the "pirate" market consists of people who wouldn't pay for the content anyway (and, for many, if they find something valuable enough, they will pay).

      But I simply can't agree with this:

      When I go to a concert I'm not buying anything. I'm paying for a service, just like when my employer pays me for my time or I pay a barber to cut my hair or tip my bartender. When I buy that band's CD I'm buying a CD. When I hear them on the radio, it's free. When I tape it off the radio it's free. The content is free, the CD and service (concert) are not.

      I understand the distinction you're trying to draw about a "service," but you choose a very interesting place to draw the line. Are you allowed to make a recording of this "service" and distribute it freely? Are you allowed to sneak some people into the concert to enjoy hearing it as well, as long as they don't disrupt other people? They aren't interfering with the "service" for anyone, and since you aren't buying anything, what does it matter?

      I would think that the latter sounds immoral. It does to me. You're paying to hear that performance, whether you want to call it a "service" or whatever, just like part of the profits earned on the CD you buy go to pay the artist for performing in the studio and making the CD. Yeah, if a performance gets played on the radio, you can hear it for free, just as a band can hold a free concert. But it does not follow that the content of a recording has no inherent monetary value. If I go to the grocery store, and they have a "buy one, get one free sale" on cans of peas, it doesn't mean that cans of peas are "free" in any absolute sense. If I show up on the first day they're selling a new computer application, and they give me one for free as a first customer, that doesn't mean it was "free" in an absolute sense, and I should just go home and give the software to everyone. Playing something on a radio or even allowing legal taping of "free" performances on the radio does not make every recording of that performance in every medium "free."

      And even if you think it does, it does not follow that the "content" of CD is free. Come on. It's particularly noticeable in classical CDs. I can buy a recording of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" by some crappy orchestra for less than $5. I can buy a CD that looks exactly the same except for some cover art, but it was just recorded by some hip new group in Italy, and I'll pay $18 for it. If the "content" of the CD is free, then what the hell am I paying $13 more for? I'm paying for a better performance (or at least a newer one or one that's more in vogue). Classical labels are small enough that new orchestral recordings simply won't pay unless they sell CDs; how else do you justify getting 50-100 musicians together to provide

    16. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually, some portion of what you are paying for the container goes to pay for the content. In the case of newspapers, it's actually a significant portion. A newspaper costs a few pennies to print, and even with delivery and markup, the bulk of the money the newspaper company is paid is for content, not the printing of hieroglyphs on thinly-pounded dead trees.

      You couldn't be more wrong. A subscription does not even cover the cost of actually printing the newspaper:

      http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/03/02/interesting-the-incredible-cost-of-printing-the-newspaper/

    17. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by maglor_83 · · Score: 1

      What a load of bull. If all you were buying was the container, why did you buy the Sgt Peppers record instead of the Dolly Parton one?

    18. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by jawahar · · Score: 1

      Content providers do not OWN or CREATE the news. They DISTRIBUTE news. And distribution costs TRIVIAL on Internet.

    19. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Commercial copyright infringement isn't just illegal, it's wrong.

      I have to admit I was surprised by that statement in context of your post. I'm guessing that you want distribution of copyrighted content to be allowed as long as no one is making a profit?

      It used to be legal to record your friend's LP on cassette. See, publishers don't sell novels, they sell BOOKS. They should continue to sell books. When you buy a novel for your kindle, you should get a nice dead tree book to go along with it; or rather, when you buy your book you should get the electronic version as well. Noncommercial copying does not hurt the artist; it's nothing more than advertising. I'm not likely to buy Cory Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom if I've never heard of him, and even if I have I'm not likely to buy it unless I've read other stuff by him. As it is, I read Little Brother on his web site, liked the story and the way he wrote, and bought DaOitMK.

      Forty years ago I bought Jimi Hendrix Are You Experienced when a friend gave me a cassette of it. They didn't play Hendrix on the radio, so without that "piracy" that sale would not have been made.

      But selling copies of works you aren't authorized to sell DOES deprive the artist and publisher of revinue.

      What does "commercial" mean here? Anytime that someone accepts any compensation in return for providing a copy of a copyrighted work?

      Yes. A sale is a sale, it shouldn't matter if one illegal copy was sold or a million. There's actually something tangible there.

      What if someone facilitates commercial infringement by making content available in a form that makes it easier to copy?

      I'm not sure what you mean by this, you mean like inventing a CD burner or ripper? Would you prosecute a gunsmith if one of his hunting rifles was used for murder?

      Are you allowed to make a recording of this "service" and distribute it freely?

      Why not? A concert is more than music, and agiain, this only helps the artist. The Grateful Dead, who got little airplay, would have never had the popularity they enjoyed had they not encouraged bootlegs of their live performances. I have friends who post lossless copies of their shows on archive.org, as thousands of other artists do.

      Are you allowed to sneak some people into the concert to enjoy hearing it as well, as long as they don't disrupt other people?

      Thats silly, of course not. OTOH when I was in college in the late '70s at SIU, they had the Mississippi River Festival there. You could (barely) hear the concert from our on-campus apartment; it was an outdoor festival that went on every night all summer long. They didn't allow alcohol past the gates (I think they were OK with drugs though), so there were mountains of beer outside. My then-wife and I would sit outside listening to the concert and drinking beer. Occasionally we'd buy a ticket and go inside where you actually got the full experience. But nobody ever complained about the party outside, nor should they have. In fact, there were acts I'd not heard of that I wound up buying albums from hearing them outside the gates. Like I said, I'm not likely to buy a concert ticket for a band I've never heard of.

      I can buy a recording of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" by some crappy orchestra for less than $5. I can buy a CD that looks exactly the same except for some cover art, but it was just recorded by some hip new group in Italy, and I'll pay $18 for it.

      You can buy a copy of a Britney Spears CD for $20 or a CD from a local band that actually has some talent for $5. I don't see the point of your argument. The content is the "carrot" that gets you to spend the money on the physical object.

      But when you claim that recorded content (or printed or whatever) has no value... well, if that's true, I hope you won't miss that "content" when no one makes any more for you.

      It will never hapen. Creative people MUST create; it's in the way they (we) are. A musician can no more refrain from playing music than an alcoholic can refrain from drinking. There will always be art, good and bad, whether or not it's monetized.

    20. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Why did I buy the Sgt. Pepper album when I already had a cassette of it? Why did I buy the Deep Purple In Rock cassette when I already had a good quality bootleg of it?

    21. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      Thanks much for taking the time to respond. I really still don't understand some of your views, though, and you conveniently ignore a lot of the meat of what I said. Just a couple things:

      What does "commercial" mean here? Anytime that someone accepts any compensation in return for providing a copy of a copyrighted work?

      Yes. A sale is a sale, it shouldn't matter if one illegal copy was sold or a million. There's actually something tangible there.

      To me, there's where I get confused, although perhaps you have a different definition of "sale." But I said "compensation" for a specific reason -- a person might give me a recording of one thing in exchange for another recording, or a person might buy me dinner when I give him a copy of my music collection. Is that a problem? I'm being "compensated" for distributing copies of something. I'm not getting actual currency, but items of value are being exchanged between two (or more) people. Under different conditions, some of that "compensation" might be paid to artists instead, but it's not. Once again, the content has inherent value (at least for most people), whether or not you choose to believe it has monetary value.

      Are you allowed to make a recording of this "service" and distribute it freely?

      Why not? A concert is more than music, and agiain, this only helps the artist. The Grateful Dead, who got little airplay, would have never had the popularity they enjoyed had they not encouraged bootlegs of their live performances. I have friends who post lossless copies of their shows on archive.org, as thousands of other artists do.

      If your friends distribute copies of their own shows, fine. But I'm a little more hazy on when you decide to do this on your own. You're right -- for many (even most) bands it's free advertising. But don't they get to make the choice? Why do you get to choose? Also, again I'm still trying to pin down what exactly you're paying for at this concert. What is the "service" you say that you're paying for, if not being able to hear/see that performance? If you then provide that "service" to others for free, presumably again because you're claiming that the content is "free," then what were you paying for?

      Are you allowed to sneak some people into the concert to enjoy hearing it as well, as long as they don't disrupt other people?

      Thats silly, of course not.

      Why? What hair are you splitting that says you can record a concert and distribute it freely to others, but you can't actually distribute that material directly to them by helping them get into the concert hall? I'm not asking a legal question here, because that answer may vary. From a moral standpoint, I really don't see a difference. If the band says they don't want their concert recorded and redistributed, and you do that, I don't see any difference between that and allowing people to sneak into a concert hall to experience that performance. In both cases, you're allowing someone who didn't pay for the "service" to experience it. If the band says it's okay to record, fine, but otherwise you're breaking the rules in both cases. After all, most concert halls are private spaces; you're choosing to pay for admission, which usually means you agree to their policies.

      I can buy a recording of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" by some crappy orchestra for less than $5. I can buy a CD that looks exactly the same except for some cover art, but it was just recorded by some hip new group in Italy, and I'll pay $18 for it.

      You can buy a copy of a Britney Spears CD for $20 or a CD from a local band that actually has some talent for $5. I don't see the point of your argument. The content is the "carrot" that gets you to spend the money on the physical object.

      You conveniently snipped out the most important part of my argument there, which is why you don't see the point. The point is that the new recording got made

    22. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      One more thing...

      The content is the "carrot" that gets you to spend the money on the physical object.

      How does this apply to actual books or newspapers? The print in the book is actually "physical" ink. Unlike CDs or DVDs, there's not even a machine required to decode those parts of the "physical object" -- our eyes can easily make use of the ink natively (for literate people, anyway). Without that print, nobody would buy the blank book.

      You might as well say that the cereal inside a cereal box is the "carrot" that gets you to spend money on the box. Really, food companies are just selling containers, but all the food inside comes free! Oh, but you claim we can reuse the content of the CD. Fine. I buy a box of sponges or a bag of rubber bands. I reuse them... again and again, just like reading a book over and over. I use the content over and over, and eventually they'll wear out, just like all media will after some period of time.

      But in those cases, I'm not actually buying sponges or rubber bands. I'm buying a box and a bag. The sponges and rubber bands are "free." Don't you see how ridiculous that argument sounds?

      I know you're going to make some sort of argument that the "content" of books or music or whatever is different. But it isn't different, except somebody came up with a way to manufacture new COPIES of the content very easily. And if somebody did that for a (relatively new) design of sponges or rubber bands or whatever, they could be infringing on a patent by making copies, instead of infringing copyright. It's still about appropriating the product of someone else's labor and distributing it without their permission.

      The main difference with your "content" is that people have figured out a way to copy and distribute it easily and with little cost. That doesn't mean we should consider the moral question of ownership just as valid.

    23. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      To me, there's where I get confused, although perhaps you have a different definition of "sale." But I said "compensation" for a specific reason -- a person might give me a recording of one thing in exchange for another recording, or a person might buy me dinner when I give him a copy of my music collection. Is that a problem?

      I would say it would be, if it was a "I'll trade you a copy of X if you give me a copy of Y", although tha might be a gray area.

      But don't they get to make the choice?

      I don't know of a single non-RIAA band that would complain about recordings of their shows being passed around, unless it was a crappy recording that made them sound bad. If there were no such thing as radio, the RIAA would embrace P2P. But they have radio and the indies do not. Their assault on P2P is strictly an anticompetetive measure.

      Why? What hair are you splitting that says you can record a concert and distribute it freely to others, but you can't actually distribute that material directly to them by helping them get into the concert hall?

      Getting them into the concert hall for free is akin to tricking a barber into giving them a free haircut. Like a haircut, the product is a service. The concert is more than the just the music.

      The point is that the new recording got made because they paid lots of people (musicians, engineers, etc.) to make it. Part of the increased cost of the new CD (although admittedly not enough of it) goes to pay for the costs of hiring those musicians and making that recording. Maybe those musicians, for whatever reason, decide not to be a "touring" group, but they make their profits off of doing recordings.

      If I hire a musician, he gets paid once. He doesn't hold copyright. And again, a factory fresh CD with cover art, liner notes, biography of the composer, etc has value and people will pay for it. But they won't if they've never heard the orchestra or the composer.

      But not all. Even if 90% of those who'd buy the recording anyway buy it (and I think that's probably an overestimate), that 10% loss of sales could discourage future recordings

      That 10% are the ones who wouldn't buy it anyway, and there is no way to stop them in any case. You can't count something as a lost sale if the person wouldn't have bought it in the first place. As long as you make a profit on the work, why would you be discouraged from making future investments?

      I encourage you to go to Cory Doctorow's web site and read the forward to Little Brother (or check it out from your local public library for free, where BTW you can also check out movies and CDs for free), and go to Lawrence Lessig's site (or the library) and read Creative Commons.

      I get the feeling you would shut down public libraries if you could, because I can get "content" there without paying for it.

    24. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The ink is not the content, the words are; or rather, the ideas and stories encompassed by those words.

      You might as well say that the cereal inside a cereal box is the "carrot" that gets you to spend money on the box.

      Cereal is a physical object, data are not. A novel or a song are not physical objects. In this case, the box (with its fancy designs etc) is the carrot to get you to buy the cereal.

      That doesn't mean we should consider the moral question of ownership just as valid.

      When I buy a book, I own the book. When I buy a CD I own the CD. But I don't own the novel or the music.

    25. Re:Here's a crazy idea... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't know if you'll even notice this late reply (I've been really busy for the past week or so), but I do have a final way of thinking about the issue.

      That is, what happens if the rules change? A main point in your argument is that people have always been sharing things like this, just in different forms. In the past, they were advertisement or whatever, and they will still be. I understand that, and I agree with that.

      But electronic distribution is different. I'm sorry, but it is. You mentioned the "gray area" about trading music -- that happens more and more often. In fact, it was already happening on a massive scale in colleges over a decade ago. A number of people I knew even back then had never bought a single CD. They had never bought a single video game. Why? Because they could get it all for free from various repositories and friends and such. I agree that even if mp3s and cracked versions of games didn't exist, those people would never have bought ALL of those games and CDs. True. No argument there. But they would have bought MANY of them; certainly many, many more than they did, even as poor college students.

      In the past, a taped copy of an LP or a tape of a radio broadcast would usually be a lower quality than an LP. Today, the successors to mp3s are a high enough quality that most people have gotten used to them. They don't need to buy an LP or a CD to get what is considered the full quality of the recording for most people, so why would they when they could get it for free? They don't need to, and many don't. It's that simple. I knew many people like that a decade ago; from my encounters with college students today, it seems to be the same.

      Also, taping and copying in the past was a laborious task, so this kind of transfer didn't make any sense. You had to tape often in real time, or perhaps make high-speed copies, but in the time it took to make one tape 30 years ago with standard technology, today I can copy thousands of recordings. Back then, if I wanted to make a copy of a recording that my friend had, I could spend an hour making a lower quality tape off of an LP, or I could go out and buy one probably in less time from the store down the street with higher quality. Today, I can just transfer the entire contents of my friend's iPod, with its hundreds of recordings, in a matter of minutes, and sort out what things I want and what I don't want later. Even if one accepts your premise that the rules were for "free content" back then, I don't see how anyone could automatically decide that the same principles NECESSARILY should apply when the way content can be transferred now requires very little time or money investment.

      For newspapers, a similar thing happened. A couple decades ago, sure you could share a newspaper or even copy a newspaper and give it to your friends, but the latter would take so much time to distribute and get it to your friends that it wouldn't usually be worth it, since the value of news is short-lived, by definition. But newspapers could make a lot of money off of distributing AP content and similar things, since there was no other easy way to get your hands on those stories for free other than sharing a newspaper or whatever. That's not true anymore. Now, AP content is available for free and can be read instantaneously by millions of people from one source, unlike the previous newspaper copies that could only be shared by maybe a couple dozen people at most.

      Thus, newspapers will have to change their business model. But it doesn't mean that content was ever "free." Newspapers always paid for that content when they paid for their own reporters to create it. They "paid" for the AP more indirectly by contributing stories (again created by their writers) to the AP pool as members of the AP. To assert that the AP has no value is to adopt a mindset that will result in a tragedy of the commons.

      Books will be the next thing, as people get

  3. Micropayments by ZekoMal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Easiest way to find a free alternative. Most people already pay for TV of some sort on top of internet, so if every single news outlet (including local news outlets and blogs and places like slashdot) started charging for you to view news, people would simply watch the news they already technically pay for. I have no problem paying for new news. The problem with our news is that every outlet runs the same story with their commentary slapped on top.

  4. NPR by TrippTDF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Advertising on the internet simply does not work, and micropayments are never going to fly. Newspapers need to adopt the NPR beg-a-thon method. They need to learn to live with lower overheads and lower revenues. Their sales forces need to convert into grant-writers and they need to focus on asking their readers and big corporate donors for money.

    1. Re:NPR by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Or, they need to find a new, workable revenue model for an age where people do not want to pay just to be informed about the world. The news itself must be subsidized by something else, some related business where the newspapers can use their reputation for quality journalism to boost sales. What that business might be, I do not personally know, but if it cannot be discovered, then you are right: journalists are going to be begging for money to do their work.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:NPR by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Advertising on the internet doesn't work because they're doing it wrong. The more in your face they make it, the harder we readers concentrate on ignoring it, and when it gets too outrageous we put in ad blockers. ADVERTISING SHOULD NOT MOVE IN A PAGE YOU'RE TRYING TO READ. When I see a page of blinkey flashing twirley ads with two paragraphs per page, I know that the site is pure shit and is only there to garner cash for some greedhead. They're lucky if they get me to read the first page.

      The lower overheads need to come in the form of lower wages for the top earners. Millions of dollars a year, even hundreds of thousands per year for ONE single employee is ludicrous.

    3. Re:NPR by maxume · · Score: 1

      You do realize that Google is a very successful internet ad sales company, right?

      They provide search and other services because it gives them a convenient place to put the ads that they sell.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:NPR by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Ads in general need to become more targeted and less obnoxious.

      This isn't just a "web" problem. This is a problem in general
      and one that is simply "masked" by older media because it's
      less obvious that people are ignoring you. The existence of
      Tivos and AdBlock make it obvious that people WANT to avoid
      your ads and are doing so. In old media, you can "kid yourself"
      because there's no obvious and visible method of avoidance.

      It's the old 50's idea that if people weren't talking about it
      then it wasn't happening when infact it really was.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:NPR by MrMr · · Score: 1

      What that business might be, I do not personally know
      How is it possible to create content, and print millions of copies and ship them for free ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_daily_newspaper ), but not keep a server with the same content available?

    6. Re:NPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advertising on the internet simply does not work, and micropayments are never going to fly. Newspapers need to adopt the NPR beg-a-thon method. They need to learn to live with lower overheads and lower revenues. Their sales forces need to convert into grant-writers and they need to focus on asking their readers and big corporate donors for money.

      So basically you want some one else to pay for your news? Ultimately that seems to be the model everyone is favoring, let some one else pay for what I want. Artists should work for free and now reporters are overpaid or outright greedy. I used to work for a newspaper and it's not as easy as it looks. Print news has been on a decline since the 70s and the paper I used to work for has since shut down. The quality of journalism has dropped like a rock and it's going to get a lot worse. Would you prefer government run news services? Hey at least we'd be wining the war in Afghanistan if the government was the sole news source. If you think bloggers are the solution I hate to break it to you but they are either just giving opinion which isn't news or leeching off stories established news sources paid for. If the news sources dry up where do you think it will come from? Back in the 60s and 70s we had strong newspapers and reliable TV news. Most people think things are better now but they aren't. Newspapers have been around longer than this country and they are part of the First Amendment. It'll be a sad day when kids will learn about newspapers in a history class.

    7. Re:NPR by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      And they're one of the few companies that gets how to advertise effectively, efficiently and usefully.

      Go to just about any news website. You'll see flashing ads, bouncing ads, ads that pop down from the top.

      Like I said above, the reader is there for the content. If the newspaper provides compelling content, then there will be more readers, they can charge more for ads, and be choosy about the quality of the ads. But newspapers are run by ad people. They think more ads = more revenue even if you're driving your readers away. Yes, they're ALL that dumb.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    8. Re:NPR by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

      If newspaper reporters, photographers, or even editors are making millions where you live, you must live somewhere where print journalism works differently than any market I've ever seen. The same if your local TV reporter (sportscaster, weather girl, etc) is making millions.

      As far as I know, the only people making that kind of money in journalism are cable and network anchors who are nationally recognized figures. This is a handful of people in the whole country--and lowering that limited overhead is not going to save the business of journalism.

      The main thing that needs to happen is better targeting. Targeting of news content (already happens, but needs to get better) targeting of ads (currently almost useless) and targeting of audience. If news outlets can get their act together and find a niche that works then they'll survive, micro payments or not. The ones that can't adjust to this new reality will either die off or get federal funding.

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
    9. Re:NPR by slim · · Score: 1

      Advertising on the internet simply does not work

      Got a source for that?

      An awful lot of people seem to be (spending|earning) money on it.

    10. Re:NPR by tibman · · Score: 1

      Like selling ebook readers the way cell phones are done. Cheap up front with several year contract lock-ins to pay off the reader. News/Content could even be delivered as a paid service.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    11. Re:NPR by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Advertising on the internet doesn't work because they're doing it wrong.

      Advertising without flashing and twirling doesn't work. So what you're saying is, advertising doesn't work on the internet because I'm offended by the very things that make advertisements work, which is to say, getting and holding your attention in spite of your best interest.

      You're acting like advertising is about providing you information about products so that you can make an informed purchase decision. That's not advertising; that's technical information, and it comes from a different mindset. Advertising is about creating an association with a brand or product. If they can make their name familiar to you, then your brain will automatically urge you to select their product when you're holding it and their competitor's product. This is what advertising is about... tricking you into buying something.

      In short, we come right back to the statement that advertising on the internet doesn't work. Except, it does! All those banners and other annoying ads wouldn't be there if they didn't work on enough people to derive some profit from the concept. People are obviously still clicking on pop-ups and buying shit through the pop-up links. So really, advertising on the internet works. I suspect we'll see more interstitial ads and popups, and the "news" will still keep going strong. Of course, if they report some actually important news without spinning it their way, it's a total accident, since 95% of the media in the US (or more) is controlled by ten corporations, which also own moe than half of the media in the world. Think about that next time you visit a corporate news site... It's ALL advertising. Every. Stinking. Word.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:NPR by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he means the media moguls at the top. If you follow the majority of the money getting paid to these media corporations you will see that most of it flows into a remarkably small number of pockets. You certainly don't tend to see a lot of dividends paid to stockholders; instead, you see splits, which are half bullshit anyway. (The market half)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:NPR by slim · · Score: 1

      The more in your face they make it, the harder we readers concentrate on ignoring it, and when it gets too outrageous we put in ad blockers. ADVERTISING SHOULD NOT MOVE IN A PAGE YOU'RE TRYING TO READ. When I see a page of blinkey flashing twirley ads with two paragraphs per page, I know that the site is pure shit and is only there to garner cash for some greedhead. They're lucky if they get me to read the first page.

      Market forces should solve this one. If it's not working, it'll change until it works better.

      However, if it is working (that is, the publisher and the advertiser are still making profits), then your individual irritation is not relevant.

    14. Re:NPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newspapers need to adopt the NPR beg-a-thon method.

      What, be government subsidized, gain most of their money from advertisers, and still whine for money?

      The money from those beg-a-thons makes up less than a quarter of their budget. The rest comes from our tax money (whether we want it to or not) and advertisers.

      I'm sorry, "corporate sponsors" - NPR is "ad free." *cough*

    15. Re:NPR by slim · · Score: 1

      But newspapers are run by ad people. They think more ads = more revenue even if you're driving your readers away. Yes, they're ALL that dumb.

      So either it's not working, in which case they'll go out of business and they won't be mourned... ... or it is working, and more ads = more revenue is actually true.

    16. Re:NPR by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Have you read about the newspaper business?

      It's not working. They're going under left and right.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    17. Re:NPR by slim · · Score: 1

      Is that meant to contradict what I said?

      Publishers going under was the first block of my if/then/else.

    18. Re:NPR by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      My point was that there doesn't need to be an else clause...

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    19. Re:NPR by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If newspaper reporters, photographers, or even editors are making millions where you live

      Get another cup of coffee and consider what I'm saying. I'm not referring to any reporter or editor, I'm referring to the CEO and board of Copely and the other newspaper chains.

    20. Re:NPR by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If the ads are working then why do they claim to need micropayments? The fact is that these ads are repelling my eyeballs and making it far less likely that I'll pay them.

      I don't know whare the idea that it's ok to annoy your readership, viewers, or customers came from but it seems to be spreading. Cable TV now has those damned logos and worse, the History Channel has ads for "Ice Road Truckers" popping up at the botton left of the screen when I'm trying to watch something educational. What moron came up with the idea that annoying me will get me to buy your product?

    21. Re:NPR by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I gladly watch the ads on Hulu. They're short, and sometimes even interesting. Hell, I remember an ad for the council for the Arts that I was watching just last night. The point is that they're nowhere near as bad as they are on cable... a 30 second spot, then back to the show. Minute at the most. I'm ok with that. That's actually the entire reason that I dropped my cable subscription.

    22. Re:NPR by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What moron came up with the idea that annoying me will get me to buy your product?

      The whole point, and you can easily find a zillion citations, is that crap like that does work. Maybe not on you, but on most people. Television doesn't try to serve you, it tries to take your money, but in reality you are the product and the advertisers are the customer, so the whole point is to put advertising that works in front of your eyeballs to keep the money rolling in. This is why public television, radio, and in fact all forms of media are so critically important; they like ratings but are not driven by them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:NPR by StreetStealth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is precisely why Facebook killed MySpace.

      MySpace advertising: "HEY LOOK AXE BODY SPRAY HOT CHICKS YEAHH"

      Facebook advertising: "Oh hey, you said you like design. These advertisers thought you might like this design book."

      Even if I never buy the body spray or the design book, the former ad makes me dislike the product while the latter leaves me curious.

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    24. Re:NPR by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      Speaking as someone stuck with the US version of broadband, I sure don't want to see most of my bandwidth taken by massive video based adverts. When I don't use Adblock, sites with ads are aggravatingly slow.

      Think everyone is with you on the outrageous pay top management gets. I can't feel any sympathy over the hard times a news or any company is allegedly having when they can somehow still scrape together 7 and 8 figure pay packages for dozens of employees in upper management, when 15% of a company's net worth is paid out in a big fat golden parachute to one who isn't even staying! No sympathy either for wails that they'll lose their so-called talent if they don't pay.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    25. Re:NPR by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      Or will it be that we will be begging for Journalists to get back to doing their work?

      Despite the fact that most major news outlets provide a lot of garbage content, I think most of us agree that we want to know about major events happening locally, around the country, and around the world. If the Internet Ad Revenue model falls completely apart and it is no longer worth it for news sources to stay in business, they simply will not. As much as I hate to say it, it is in theirs AND our best interests to find a reasonable way for them to get paid appropriately. If all news in the United States ended up funded by tax dollars, it would be an epic disaster.

    26. Re:NPR by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Or, they need to find a new, workable revenue model for an age where people do not want to pay just to be informed about the world. The news itself must be subsidized by something else, some related business where the newspapers can use their reputation for quality journalism to boost sales. What that business might be, I do not personally know, but if it cannot be discovered, then you are right: journalists are going to be begging for money to do their work.

      That related business is journalism that is more concretely worth something to its readers: helping them choose the most suitable product.

      In the past the only reward publishers could (legitimately) get from this type of journalism was by selling ads around it, plus any money they made on the cover price. But as information distribution has opened up, ads-around-content is no longer as lucrative as it once was, particularly when they are cuting their own throats by making it more and more intrusive.

      But lately more publications (including Slashdot) have been getting into the affiliate sales game, which gains them good revenue for some product-related journalism at the expense of involving their journalism in the sales process.

      An alternative to affiliate sales is to make it possible for a product purchaser to identify which sources of advice helped them choose their product, and have those sources rewarded with either a share of any cash rebate the purchaser receives, or with a bonus payment from the product's maker. This allows publishers to be paid more often, including when they give a product a bad review.

      As has always been the case, such journalism can subsidise hard news.

    27. Re:NPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advertising without flashing and twirling doesn't work.

      Tell that to Google. They built their business on a good search engine with simple inoffensive text ads.

    28. Re:NPR by TrippTDF · · Score: 1

      "free" newspapers are filled with advertisements. There isn't a newspaper around that relies on subscription costs for it's revenues. They keep subscriber costs lot to attract as many readers as possible, thereby raising circulation, which makes them more attractive to potential advertisers.

  5. No payments, micro or otherwise by Chicken04GTO · · Score: 1

    I wont pay for news content period. There's very little out there that I have to have right now, and somewhere, someone else will have it for free. I might pay for a value added website, but not for news, which really is just raw material.

    1. Re:No payments, micro or otherwise by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      I don't know anyone who will. At worst it'll make me go back to print, sadly the profession I'm going into requires me to keep up with the news more or less. The other problem is that most of what they report on court cases is so screwed up that half the time I can't even tell that this was the court case I was actually at.

      Regardless of that, the Canadian National dalies don't seem to be going apeshit at trying to pull this so that makes me happy. I'd hate trying to goto my criminal law class without some current news article to disect.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  6. How about "Holy Grail and delusion" by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's the Holy Grail of media outlets, because it would get people to pay for something that has been given away for a long time. But it's a delusion as well, since efforts at doing just that have not met with anything remotely like success.

    For instance, the New York Times tried to do a "Times Select" paid service with a lot of formerly free content available for the low low price of $10.99 per year or so. It must not have worked, because a few months later all the content that used to be hidden behind the paywall was placed back on the free site.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:How about "Holy Grail and delusion" by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Perfect example.

      Even though most would consider the NY Times to have some real premium content worthy of paying for, they couldn't make it work. How are any other news sites going to?

      http://www.nytimes.com/marketing/ts/index.html

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:How about "Holy Grail and delusion" by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Seconded. Newspapers need to realize that the readers are the product, and they're trying to sell that to the advertisers. You keep the readers happy and get more of them, and you can charge more for ads. It's not a hard formula. Charging for the news is trying to double-dip, and you're biting the hand that feeds you.

    3. Re:How about "Holy Grail and delusion" by slim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Newspapers need to realize that the readers are the product, and they're trying to sell that to the advertisers.

      Newspapers know that. Newspapers also know that paying readers are worth more to advertisers than non-paying readers - because the fact that they're paying shows they're "engaged".

      Perhaps online news sources need to prove to advertisers that their readership is engaged in different ways. For example, a lively commenting community would be one way.

    4. Re:How about "Holy Grail and delusion" by upuv · · Score: 1

      -->> paying shows they're "engaged". --

      Do you believe this marketing lie? I've been hearing this since the 80's. This is the kind of turtle droppings sales men have been leaving in my office for years.

      Does a unique user return over and over again. This proves if they are engaged.

      I paid a full year gym membership. I can with 100% certainty tell you I was not engaged with the gym.

      P.S. I know you don't believe it either. I just react badly to marketing speak :)

      P.P.S. Tracking user is easy. It's called a cookie. Done.

  7. Micro by rossdee · · Score: 0

    The SI definition of micro is one millionth. Its gonna take a lot of payments to add up to even 1 cent. I doubt that it would be economical.

    1. Re:Micro by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but anything smaller than a million dollars is chump change for these rich greedheads, so a buck IS a micropayment -- to them.

    2. Re:Micro by blueZ3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think this is one key point: micro payments need to be micro. I'm not paying $.25 to read the on-line version of an AP article on the NYT site. If you figure there are 100 articles in the weekly edition of the NYT, then a single article is worth something less than 1/2 a cent, in print. If you eliminate the printing and distribution costs, say 1/4 or 1/8 a cent per article. I might pay a few pennies to read the entire site, but I'm not willing to pay anywhere near the dead-tree price for on-line news.

      Another point: whatever they take for micropayments it has to be something easy and ubiquitous. I'm not jumping through hoops so that I can pay 1/8th of a cent to read the obits. And whatever it is, it can't be something that only works one place. I'm not signing up for "NYTCa$h" that can't be used anywhere but the NYT site.

      My personal opinion is that news will continue to be ad-supported for the foreseeable future. As technology improves and ads become more targeted, they will be increasingly effective and less annoying. Hopefully this will happen soon enough to keep journalism alive.

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
    3. Re:Micro by TFloore · · Score: 1

      As technology improves and ads become more targeted, they will be increasingly effective and less annoying.

      Nope. There's a major problem with this viewpoint.

      Privacy is the opposite of targeted advertising. For targeted advertising to work, you cannot have any privacy.

      Targeted advertising is more than just "You read articles about computers, so we'll show you computer advertisements".

      It is "Your car needs an oil change, we'll show you ads about your local QuickLube". It is "Your kid got in a fight at school, we'll show you ads for self defense classes and team sports". It is "Your marriage is going to crap, we'll show you ads for divorce attorneys".

      Are you really comfortable with that idea? Because that is what targeted advertising is really about.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
  8. What it means for journalism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Well hopefully it means the resurrection of journalism and the death of sensationalism. Ultimately it's up to generation Y to decide what we want.

    1. Re:What it means for journalism? by slim · · Score: 1

      Please talk me through how, when for years the general public has shown that it's prepared to pay for sensationalism on paper, paid digital content will lead to the death of sensationalism?

  9. I demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I demand payment for this comment, slashdot.

    1. Re:I demand by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      Then it was an interesting choice to post as AC....

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    2. Re:I demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Payment acknowledged. Receipt is in the post.

    3. Re:I demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I demand payment for this comment, slashdot.

      Yes indeed. I am being ex-head of International Committeee on Exploitation of Foreign Resources in St.Serif island. Appearance of unfortunate irregularities in these finances means that myself not longer in former position of power. Accidentally diverted funds in amount of US$150,000,000 (ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION U.S. DOLLARS) are in accounts under my control, but which I tragically cannot withdraw to my personally. As payment for your comment, I offer 10% (TEN PERCENT) of the total amounts if the remainder can be transferred via undertakings of your account to mine.
      Please be sending your legal name and address, banking information including passwords, all credit card numbers, and a photograph of your teenage daughters in the nude, and I will speedily hasten to consummate this divine opportunity.
      His Most Excellent Holiness, Illustrious Field Marshall Prince Ranavalona XI (ret.)

  10. News is an experiential good by sjbe · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem with news is that it is an experiential good meaning you can't determine it's value in advance. You only know whether it was worth something AFTER you read it. So why would someone pay for news that might or might not be valuable? Usually because the source has a track record of providing good information (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc) or you have some other reason to suspect that the information might be valuable (information about a stock that is not widely known for instance). But the seller of information by definition cannot know what the information is worth to the buyer in advance. Generally the seller finds out it was worth something to the buyer if the buyer buys information from them again.

    There is money to be made in paying for content that can be had for free elsewhere. Apple's iTunes is proof enough of that. BUT it has to provide something you can't easily get from the free (even if illegal) alternatives. That could be convenience, it could be support, it could be complementary technology (iPod/Kindle), it could be reliability, it could be unusually insightful analysis, and it could be other things. Just copying the latest AP news has some value but not enough many people will pay for it directly.

    1. Re:News is an experiential good by slim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with news is that it is an experiential good meaning you can't determine it's value in advance.

      Indeed, and while we get over this with periodicals by using past performance as a guide, I'd say that this only works if you look at whole edition of a newspaper as a bundle, rather than looking article by article.

      If I loved one Guardian article, I don't think that's a reliable indicator that I'll love some arbitrary Guardian article from today's edition.

      Rather, I've found in the past that a typical copy of the Guardian (GBP 1.20) contains a a bunch of headlines I can skim through to get a general idea of what's going on in the world; three or four news articles I want to read in full; maybe one in-depth double page spread I can get my teeth into; some lightweight commentary; a letters page; reviews; a crossword and sudoku if I'm bored later on.

      If you unbundled those and tried to charge for the separately, I don't think it would work. I happily pay the cover price for a newspaper knowing that I'll skip more than half of it. But I don't know which half until after I've paid, and neither does the editor.

    2. Re:News is an experiential good by upuv · · Score: 1

      In the old days, The 90's people paid for news from print sources.

      They tended to gravitate to a few rather than many sources.

      Why?

      Simple. The larger news providers could provide the news conveniently and quickly. With an additional reputation for volume of acceptable content. This is something people would pay for.

      Now we have access to the worlds press from our portable phone 24/7/52. Bookmarks solve the issue reputable news dealers.

      I conclude it wasn't content that was valuable it was the access. Now that convergence of media has removed the distinction of news media from facebook status it is clear that what people are paying for is the access method. Thus a news provider must adjust to the fact money no longer comes from the reader.

  11. A working micropayment system might help! by upuv · · Score: 1

    OK news is another content type on the net that would benefit from micro-payments.

    Problem. Is there a micro-payment system out there that people would trust? NOPE.

    Every micro scheme I've seen to date want to effectively tax the user with huge fees. Or saddle it with some craptastic marketing angle.

    Until the governments put some trust behind the system like have for cash then micro payments are a no show.

  12. Holy Grail != Delusion? by TyIzaeL · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Last I checked, the Holy Grail was a delusion.

    1. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by happy_place · · Score: 3, Funny

      No. I think we all know, thanks to the movies, that the holy grail is guarded by a really bored knight of the round-table even to this day and is a common looking cup that can heal your dad's wounds, and then will cause an earthquake opening a great chasm that will swallow any (especially hot nazi dominatrix-type women) who try to grab it, instead of chosing to live...

      --
      http://www.beanleafpress.com
    2. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a delusion, it was just a cup that a guy who is still remembered 2000 years later drank from before he was tortured to death. It most likely no longer exists, but it did at one time. Its existance was documented.

    3. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by captjc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Before that, it was guarded by a bunch of deranged, foul-mouth Frenchmen who liked catapulting livestock at kings and their entourage of knights

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
    4. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      Its existance was documented.

      Not really. It only exists in one book, and right after that cup is documented the dude comes back to life. That would indicate that any historical references must be taken with a grain of salt.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    5. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by maugle · · Score: 1

      If he existed, I'm willing to bet he drank something from a cup at some point before his death.

    6. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by julesh · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a delusion, it was just a cup that a guy who is still remembered 2000 years later drank from before he was tortured to death. It most likely no longer exists, but it did at one time. Its existance was documented.

      Any documentation that exists was put together at least 10-20 years after the event, much of it much longer than that. It would be quite hard to be sure that any details in such documentation are accurate. For all we know, the entire event of the Last Supper may be a myth. The notion that Jesus showed his disciples the ritual of the eucharist and told them to do it in his memory is quite likely to be an after-the-event invention by the church. If that's the case, no holy grail, at least not in the commonly-imagined sense, ever existed.

    7. Re:Holy Grail != Delusion? by julesh · · Score: 1

      If he existed, I'm willing to bet he drank something from a cup at some point before his death.

      Yes, but the basic point of the holy grail is the notion that he performed the first eucharist with it, thus creating the core ceremony of the Christian church. If this didn't happen (and the evidence that we have that it did is pretty damned sketchy; nobody bothered mentioning it in writing until around 20 years after he died) then no holy grail ever existed, at least not in the sense that most Christians would imagine such an artifact.

  13. Advertising by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With a very few exceptions, news is worth what you can get advertisers to pay for access to the consumers. This has been true since the advent of television journalism half a century ago.

    It's the newspaper's own fault that craigs list took over classified advertising. They had the better part of a decade to get their acts together and get the ads online before craigs list existed. And it's their own fault that they still haven't learned the Google advertising lesson so that they're still serving worthless banner ads that many if not most of the browsers block.

    If they continue to refuse to embrace their new reality, they will continue to fail. Such is fate.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's their own fault that they still haven't learned the Google advertising lesson so that they're still serving worthless banner ads that many if not most of the browsers block.

      While I agree with the major part of your post, that part is simply not true.

      I do a lot of data analysis on (among others) big news sites. If you hang out on slashdot you'd start to imagine hardly anyone still browses without flash blocking, but let me assure you, the amount of people that actually block flash ads are still in the "too few to even mention" category.

    2. Re:Advertising by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

      news is worth what you can get advertisers to pay for access to the consumers

      This has dangerous implications. More people will watch entertaining news than factual news. They prefer "easy" news to abstract (but possibly of greater effect) news and will turn off if it's not presented as a series of soundbites: which makes in-depth coverage and analysis impossible.

      I can see a good case to say that informing citizens is as important as protecting them and therefore should be financed (if not controlled by) the state.

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    3. Re:Advertising by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      which makes in-depth analysis impossible.

      Perhaps you haven't noticed, but journalists are not known for their brilliant analytical skills regardless of funding. If they were analysts then covering the recent Washington DC metrorail crashes, at least one of them might have wondered why it's possible for a modern train safety system to see a train disappear from its sensors and not sound all kinds of alarms.

      A journalist's job is to report and they do best when they do just that: report the facts. When journalists make insipid and banal attempts at commentary and analysis, they usually get it wrong.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    4. Re:Advertising by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      If the newspapers are raking it in on the flash ads, why aren't their stocks over $100 a share? Surely the cost of collecting news is not significantly higher than the cost of the massive computing operation necessary for a search engine.

      The answer of course is that fewer people click on the flash ads versus Google ads and of those that click, fewer buy. Some obvious candidates for why include:

      1. Those who hang out on news sites have the ads disabled.
      2. Those who don't have the ads disabled tend not to hang out on sites where lots of moving crap distracts the eyes.
      3. The ads are poorly targeted; the newspapers fail to identify what the consumers are likely to be interested so most of the ad impressions are wasted.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    5. Re:Advertising by slim · · Score: 1

      If the newspapers are raking it in on the flash ads, why aren't their stocks over $100 a share?

      Because they're part of a supposedly free market, meaning they have to charge market rate for ads, or their ad customers will go to their competitors instead.

    6. Re:Advertising by slim · · Score: 1

      When journalists make insipid and banal attempts at commentary and analysis, they usually get it wrong.

      But a good newspaper's best part is the "Comment and Analysis" section. Otherwise all it does is paraphrase Reuters. Obviously a paper that does a bad job of it doesn't deserve to sell.

    7. Re:Advertising by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Which newspaper would that be? Certainly not the Washington Post or New York Times.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    8. Re:Advertising by slim · · Score: 1

      I only really know about British papers, of which the broadsheets (Times, Telegraph, Guardian, Independent, etc.) are the ones with mature comment and analysis. Which one's best is a matter of personal preference.

      The trashy papers also have opinion, commentary, and an editorial stance of course. It's just that it's all a bit more rabble rousing and shrill.

      As far as I'm concerned, since all the papers get the same basic raw material (news), it's how they comment on it that gives them a competitive edge.

  14. Experience goods by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the content is premium content, something that I know is more valuable or interesting than elsewhere, then I have no problem paying for it.

    The problem with that argument when applied to newspapers is that news is an experiential good and by definition you cannot possibly know if it "is more valuable or interesting than elsewhere" until after you have the information. So you have to pay for it and hope that it turns out to be valuable. You can rely on the reputation or reliability of the source, but that still doesn't tell you in advance that the information is good. Even if others tell you it is valuable, you might not find it to be so - think of a movie that all your friends like but you don't.

    1. Re:Experience goods by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nonsense. You get to "experience" a periodical in every issue. Every issue
      is an opportunity for that periodical to prove itself. Even if the content
      is only available in hard copy you can still easily browse it and all of
      it's immediate competitors (library, bookstore).

      The character of The Journal doesn't change from one day to the next.

      Neither does Fox News.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Experience goods by Knara · · Score: 1

      That's where "reputation" comes in. I still read the NYT, even though it's not a perfect publication in terms of "being something I will always find useful". As do many people, for a variety of reasons.

      Perception of quality over time for newspapers is what drives people to continue paying for their output (or not paying for their output, in some cases, ala USA Today)

    3. Re:Experience goods by julesh · · Score: 1

      The character of The Journal doesn't change from one day to the next.

      Neither does Fox News.

      Yes, but each has good articles and bad articles, only the relative frequency of each differs... the problem is, the site owners (especially News Corp, which happens to own both Fox and WSJ, but some others as well) want to charge us _for each article we view_.

      Which, to my mind, would put web-based news back to being less convenient than buying a newspaper. I don't want to have to make a decision before starting to read an article about whether I think it's likely to be worth the money I'm paying for it, even if that money is only pennies...

    4. Re:Experience goods by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "I don't want to have to make a decision before starting to read an article about whether I think it's likely to be worth the money I'm paying for it, even if that money is only pennies..."

      Please. Read ten "paid" articles a day for an entire year and at a penny a piece it's less than $40, or pretty much just one magazine subscription.

      And actually, the original idea behind micropayments was to charge fractions of a cent ($0.0025) per article or page view. So on that site you're going to bitch about paying $4 a year? For reading ten articles a day? Every day?

      Hell, your personal time should be worth more than that...

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  15. News content wont be beholden to advertisers by microbox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I sense a problem that can be solved with S****ISM (deleted as a proactive measure to stop the political-right from having a heart-attack). The BBC news is light-years ahead of anything in the USA. It's also politically independent, unlike state-run newspapers in Iran, China and Russia.

    Can you not see a simple solution when it's staring you in the face? Has Rupert Murdoch out-foxed you all? Create an independently funded public institution, with a mandate to "educate", "inform" and "entertain", and maybe the citizens of the USA wont score so poorly on survey questions such as "were WMDs found in Iraq".

    And your news content wont be beholden to advertising interests.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    1. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We could call it "PBS".

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by corbettw · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Congratulations! You just invented NPR.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    3. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

      Or NPR

      Seriously--we HAVE public-funded news here in the U.S.--it's just that nobody's interested in listening :-)

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
    4. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could call it "PBS".

      Or "The History Channel," "The Discovery Channel," etc....

    5. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      Which ism are you talking about? Satanism? Stoicism? It ain't socialism because (a) it doesn't fit into your clue and (b) socialism doesn't "solve" problems.

      As others have said, there is the Public Broadcasting Service (TV) and National Public Radio, both of which are widely available to anyone who wants to tune into them. Despite being publicly funded, unfortunately both organizations tilt quite far in the same ideological direction.

      PS you appear to have an unhealthy fascination with Americans...this story was about micropayments and your whole post is "AmeriKKKans are so stupid!" take a break man.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      The BBC news is light-years ahead of anything in the USA. It's also politically independent, unlike state-run newspapers in Iran, China and Russia.

      This should be +5 Funny, not +5 Insightful.

      The BBC is the left-wing propaganda arm of the British state; the only sense in which it's 'politically independent' is that it doesn't drop its left-wing slant even when a right-wing government is in power, though it does tone down a little.

    7. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Seriously--we HAVE public-funded news here in the U.S.--it's just that nobody's interested in listening :-)

      Not exactly nobody: NPR news shows get about 20-25 million listeners. PBS news shows (notably the Newshour) gets about 9 million viewers. Are those huge audiences? No, but they're not insignificant either.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    8. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by slim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The BBC is the left-wing propaganda arm of the British state;

      You call that left wing? Jeez.

      it doesn't drop its left-wing slant even when a right-wing government is in power

      Since we haven't had a left wing government since 1983, it's pretty hard to make a judgement on that.

      What is clear, though, is that the BBC is entirely separate from the government. The government authorises the BBC to collect a TV licence fee, on condition that it sticks to its charter, and there the links end. There's plenty of people who kick up a stink at the slightest hint of the BBC becoming a government mouthpiece.

    9. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Kirijini · · Score: 1

      socialism doesn't "solve" problems.

      Unless that problem is "healthcare is too expensive for both individuals and the government."

    10. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn that's some good kool aid you've got there. I'm guessing you've never actually watched BBC news ever in your life?

    11. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sense a problem that can be solved with S****ISM (deleted as a proactive measure to stop the political-right from having a heart-attack).

      What is the point of being informed if my freedom is taken away, I am taxed into slavery, and the government will - ostensibly - take of me? I have no doubt with the BBC you get a service you value. Likewise, with 100% free unfettered capitalism (does not exist), I would fully expect to get products I like as I do today.

    12. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by julesh · · Score: 1

      The BBC is the left-wing propaganda arm of the British state; the only sense in which it's 'politically independent' is that it doesn't drop its left-wing slant even when a right-wing government is in power, though it does tone down a little.

      ROTFLMAO.

      Really? Have you ever actually _watched_ the BBC?

    13. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC is the left-wing propaganda arm of the British state; the only sense in which it's 'politically independent' is that it doesn't drop its left-wing slant even when a right-wing government is in power, though it does tone down a little.

      That is only true if one takes the position that any centrist idea is "left-wing".

      Let me guess, you don't like it when intelligent people talk about things you disagree about, and know even less.

    14. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Despite being publicly funded, unfortunately both organizations tilt quite far in the same ideological direction.

      That's an indication of just how myopically right-wing American culture has become. The ideological direction they tilt in PBS and NPR towards is... accuracy. That is an EMPIRICAL fact, as evidenced by surveys on the knowledge of PBS viewers.

    15. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying that one political side has all the answers, while the other side is totally wrong is normal in politics. What's unique is apparently everyone has drank the Kool-aid on this one. PBS viewers agree that PBS is correct - jeez that kind of voting is the crap the Soviets used to come up with.

    16. Re:News content wont be beholden to advertisers by matt20102 · · Score: 1

      I, for one, have not listened to commercial radio or watched commercial news programs (save for the occasional television-in-a-restaurant scenario) in the 6 years since I discovered NPR, to which I now listed exclusively. I can also say, without reservation, that I've purchased more albums from artists I've discovered from NPR than from artists discovered from commercial radio in the 6 years before that.

      Commercial radio is dead to me.

  16. pay after reading by Tom · · Score: 1

    One problem is, of course, that often times you can only estimate the worth of an article after reading it.

    I wouldn't mind a system that tells me at the end of the month about the top 10 news sites I've read and allows me to say "yeah, they were good, give them some money". I know I have a few regular sites that I'd give some right now if it were as easy as a PayPal link.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:pay after reading by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Trouble is, too few would pay after-the-fact. Unfortunately, donation-driven systems just don't work for something as costly as gathering news.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    2. Re:pay after reading by Tom · · Score: 1

      It would not have to be voluntary. I don't mind a fixed amount of money I have to give to the media industry, as long as it satisfies two conditions:

      a) it is relative to the amount I actually consume (no TV = no TV fee)
      b) I can decide how it gets distributed, none of this GEMA crap (GEMA is the german institution that collects and distributes royalties, usually to the top acts)

      The technology exists.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    3. Re:pay after reading by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you've lost me. Must be time for my medications (sips coffee) ahh, better.

      If you can't determine the value of news until after you read it, isn't any system based on pay-by-value voluntary?

      Or are you referring to a system where you'd be obliged to pay, say, 10 cents per article you read no matter what the quality, but you were allowed to specify where the money went? So if you felt one article was worthless and another was worth 20 cents, you could pay the good writer 20 cents?

      If so, and given the average laziness of most, you'll end up with a GEMA system by default - people will give all of their money to the one outlet they find the most useful because splitting up the funds is, like, work.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    4. Re:pay after reading by Tom · · Score: 1

      It's just a rough idea, not a finished one. Yes, by article count might work, but I wouldn't consider it "fair". Time, maybe. I don't know.

      The main part was that our technology can help us in the distribution. My browser already knows which news sites I frequent most often, or which articles I spent the most time reading. Now I could've just went shopping, it doesn't know that, but it could generate a list of suggestions for me, allowing me to spend five minutes each month to say "check, check, check, nah I was just shopping, check, that site sucked no idea why it's on this list, check, check" and have a better distribution system than GEMA. If I can set up preferences on how the list is generated, it'll be pretty close to what I actually think of the various sites' values.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  17. Information must be free by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    It is only when everyone is completely free to spread and comment on information that everyone will be free. Until then the people without will be subject to the filters of the people with.

    Suggestion for news aggregators: Quit trying to emulate television by attempting to force ads on your viewers.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  18. Subscription + tipping by Harlan879 · · Score: 1

    I don't want have to decide *before* I read an article whether I want to pay for it, I want to decide *after*. To that end, I propose the following micropayment system. If I want to get content from a consortium of providers (say, anything owned by The New York Times Company, or Time-Warner, or Seed Media Group, or a group of publishers that set up their own consortium), I set up an account, pay my $50/year, and get access. If I like a piece of content (article, podcast, interactive graphic, whatever), I click the "Tip the Author(s)" button, and a chunk of my $50, maybe 10 cents, gets redirected to the actual people creating the content I actually like (not just start to read). If I don't use up my $50 for the year, it just gets split internally by the consortium. This way, readers have control over where the money goes and get to associate "paying money" with "feeling good about what they read", providers get cash, and the best providers get the most cash.

    1. Re:Subscription + tipping by flitty · · Score: 1

      This is a pretty good idea. For that price, i'd want both Hard news, say a Reuters news feed, a few magazines like newsweek, and even some more noteable blogs could be added. I also would want some of my "tip" to go to the org. that produced the information, so that they can focus on other important, but less popular stuff.

      Using the tip method too, it might be a good idea to to a retroactive sliding scale for the amount of content you use. Not a hard bill mind you, more of a "You tipped 1,000 news articles in the last year, which means 500 articles you tipped were not fully compensated. Please consider paying more this year for your subscription." and allowing you to pay a higher rate.

      --
      Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
    2. Re:Subscription + tipping by mattcsn · · Score: 1

      That's one of the more interesting ideas I've heard in a long time. I agree with you.

    3. Re:Subscription + tipping by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      You should patent that as a business model before they stop issuing business model patents! Try saying that 10 times fast...

      So I like it. Question... does the Newspaper (or other business) get to keep the *float* or would you let the account holder accrue the interest? There could be a whole other side to this if the Newspapers/et al could somehow provide dividends.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  19. Micropayments will favor celebrity gossip? by jittles · · Score: 1

    I worked for a newspaper in college, I know they are typically trying to be sensational. The top searches every day often involve celebrity news. If news organizations are making all their money off of gossip are they going to stop investing in quality local and investigative articles? Will micropayments be the downfall of quality news?

    1. Re:Micropayments will favor celebrity gossip? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Will micropayments be the downfall of quality news?

      No. Because the downfall of quality news has already happened. The TV news stations have the murder/robbery/assault of the day (with an "on scene" report where nothing is happening), followed by ads thinly disguised as stories, then weather, then sports (the single largest part of the newscast). The local newspaper (Philadelphia Inquirer) simply prints an abridged version of the news from the New York Times of the day before. The radio news is still good if you want the traffic and weather report (and you'll get the murder of the day sooner), but the medium lends itself to a fairly superficial treatment... which is unfortunately just as good as the treatment you'll get in the Inquirer the next day.

    2. Re:Micropayments will favor celebrity gossip? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Will micropayments be the downfall of quality news?

      No,

      The downfall of quality news has already happened.

      I've stopped reading news.com.au (NewsCorp) because every second story was about a celebrity or sportsperson in trouble. When the "guide to the iphone"* became front page new I just gave up. Now I rely on the BBC and ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) a non political publicly funded broadcaster for news.

      * - Said guide only looked at one telco, so it was obviously a set up.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  20. more news balkenization and trolling by xzvf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Forcing people to pay for news will only increase the tendency for people to only read news they agree with. What will "save" the news industry is a shift away from creating the content to vetting content created by interested parties. While most newspapers (US) have had deteriorating quality since the Spanish-American war most in depth reporting has been done by interested parties. Groklaw is a good example of a single subject reporting. What good news aggregators should do is make it easy for people interested in SCO to find Groklaw, press releases by involved parties, and alternative views on the subject. Real "news" reform would force government, corporations and even non-profits to be more transparent in their dealings, making it easier for interested parties to research and create quality news. Tort reform to keep legal action from crushing individuals prior to judicial review (ie loser pays) would have significant impact too.

  21. Second News? by argent · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe the newspapers could start charging Linden Dollars for stories? :)

  22. It's All About Circulation by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anyone like me who has published a paper newspaper knows that it is all about circulation. Every additional cent that you charge for a copy of your publication does not increase your profits. Instead, it decreases your circulation.

    Point in fact: when I lived in Omaha, Nebraska I bought a copy of the New York Times every day and read it on the treadmill.

    Now, I live in New York City where the New York Times costs $2.00 a copy. I have bought it about three times at that price.

    In short, micropayments is a sure way to send people somewhere else for the news.

    1. Re:It's All About Circulation by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Almost like the readers are the product, and the advertisers are the customers... the newspapers are making their readers go elsewhere, thereby devaluing their own product. It's amazingly silly.

  23. A new era for news by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

    I think that the main problem here is that they are attempting to charge directly for something that has ALWAYS been free -- news in all its current iterations is solely an ad-supported medium. People pay for newspapers, that is true, but the costs of subscription barely (if at all) covers the cost of cutting down trees, milling them into paper, putting ink on them, and then putting them on trucks to deliver to front doors across the world. The costs associated with the actual journalism part has ALWAYS been ad-supported, that is why you do not need to pay anything to watch news on TV or listening to it on the radio. Subscription costs have historically been assessed to cover the cost of distribution. With the relatively minimal cost (I know bandwidth is not free, but it is significantly cheaper than the printing press) of distribution online, there is no need to charge subscription. When the newspaper business comes and tries to tell you that the Internet is changing the game by getting you your news for free, tell them to blow it out their ass. They are the ones trying to change the game here, they are trying to charge for something which has been free as long as it has been in existence.

    --
    To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    1. Re:A new era for news by ^_^x · · Score: 1

      Yes - if a news site charges for news, people will go elsewhere. If they have exclusive news no one else does... they're probably making it up, so it's not news, and is worth even less.

      So really, if they want to charge for anything, they'd better find some way to add value to the service above and beyond just offering news. Perhaps non-fictional in-depth articles like Time or National Geographic...

  24. The difference between 0.00001 and free is massive by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    While a free site will get a lot of visitors (most of whom are merely casual browser types) as soon as they start charging even the slightest amount you can expect their readership to fall off dramatically. Why is that?

    Well most people regard news as just another form of entertainment - we know this, as the most popular news programmes on TV are not the authoritative ones that tell us important information about events that will affect us. The one's that get the biggest audiances are the "populist" news programmes that deal more with celebrity gossip, scandals and rumours (oh yes, and sport). The conclusion is that people want entertainment more than they want information. Occasionally, when there's a Sept-11 type event people pile in to news channels, but since these almost never happen there's no way to build a profitable news channel or website based on regularly occurring disasters.

    So if people are given two options: free entertainment websites on the one hand and paid-for sites on the other, they will almost always choose the free stuff. The small number of individuals who want and need in-depth analysis and coverage are already buying papers like the FT and WSJ and using their onlibe outlets, too. There's no room for much more in that field.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  25. I'm pretty sure by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    But I'm pretty sure of one thing: It doesn't mean charging people fractions of a cent to read a news story, no matter how sophisticated the process.'

    Well I'm pretty sure that this is exactly what micropayments are for.

  26. Yes, or... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    1. Report accurately on poignant world events, or specialist news which is well researched and factually accurate.
    2. Increase readership.
    3. Charge more for advertising space.
    4. ...

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:Yes, or... by Maestro485 · · Score: 1

      Notice the lack of "5. PROFIT!"

  27. Pay? Not for rags. by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

    I could se myself pay for high quality articles where the reporters go out on a limb, do research and investigation resulting in unbiased and correct reporting.

    Problem is most media today are highly biased, write stuff any blogger can do better and wouldnt dare touch a sensitive topic if its anything but 100% PK with upper management. The product arent worth the money and why should i pay for what is essentially propaganda aimed at me?

    Im the one who should get money for all the ads, both in normal papers and in write-for-rent rags where a big ad gets you a nice article about your company.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  28. Co-op by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If these guys want to charge for their content they should combine their offerings into a subscription service. We are used to watching television programming through the cable or satellite companies. We pay for access to a collection of channels and content. It would seem very odd to pay for each show. It would also make flipping the channels difficult and in the end people would probably just watch less TV. The same situation would be true for Newspaper articles. I would pay for a subscription to a newspaper co-op that allowed me to read articles from a collection of reputable papers.

  29. Pay With Exposure Counts by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

    Is there a reason why advertising doesn't pay for the content? What am I missing here?

    --
    Reply to That ||
    1. Re:Pay With Exposure Counts by hierofalcon · · Score: 1

      They're realizing that AdBlock works.

    2. Re:Pay With Exposure Counts by julesh · · Score: 1

      Is there a reason why advertising doesn't pay for the content? What am I missing here?

      This _was_ viable a while ago. It's starting to look less so, for a number of reasons:

      1. Global recession. Most businesses have reduced their advertising budget, and are concentrating on their core marketplace. Internet advertising is suffering more than most because it is perceived by most advertisers as less targeted and less successful than other types of advertising.

      2. Meanwhile, the amount of content being produced and published is increasing, so the number of ad impressions available to purchase is actually increasing. Google Adwords has opened up the ad-supported business model to amateurs who would never have been considered by the ad networks before it opened up (consider, for example, doubleclick.net, which had a minimum number of impressions that was, IIRC, in excess of 10,000 per month), drastically increasing the number of ads served every day. This combined with the last point means that the price per impression is dropping drastically. Typical cost these days is around $25 per thousand impressions. When I was last selling ad space on a site, some time around 2004, it was $40 per thousand. Inflation adjusted, that's closer to $45 in today's money. That's a nearly 50% drop in revenue per page served, even assuming you can fill all your ad space, which many of the sites with large numbers of visitors struggle to achieve.

      3. Increased competition for readers. A few years ago, only a few of the major newspapers put all their content online for free. Now, they almost all do. And the number of people who have shifted to getting their news from blogs and forums that have links to the interesting stories (much like slashdot, for example) is ever-increasing. This has diluted the number of visitors to each site, resulting in a reduction of the number of impressions served.

    3. Re:Pay With Exposure Counts by julesh · · Score: 1

      Actually, looking at this Morgan Stanley presentation, it seems that $25 for today's CPM is overly optimistic. They're quoting a figure of $18 for 2008's, and the trend has been ever-downwards.

  30. Being able to pick tv channels is a Micropayments by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Being able to pick tv channels is a Micropayments system that I want to see.
    I should I be forced to pay for the disney channel carp just to get ESPN?
    I can't I get some channels that are only on comcarp at this time on sat tv? I want to pay for CLTV and have it on my direct tv system.
    Why does comcarp cable put fox movie channel in the sport pack?

  31. Considering by dgun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The general public doesnâ€(TM)t put any value on the source of their 'news'. In other words, a twitter post is just as good as something from the AP. This is partially due, IMO, to shitty poor journalism, so little time and effort is spent investigating and digging for original content nowadays. Rather, today 'journalists' slap together a handful of talking points and use other news organization's reports as sources. Journalism today has by and large become a cycle of shit, thanks in large part to the freak show circus of cable 'news'.

    So, I don't see myself paying Google for the same quality of 'news' I can get for free from any random jerk's blog.

    --
    FAQs are evil.
    1. Re:Considering by blueZ3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Think about this: when a reporter covers an area that you're an expert in, how much do they get wrong? For instance, if you know a lot about computers, how often do you hear a reporter completely misrepresent something or get some key fact exactly backwards? Now extrapolate that to EVERY area of expertise (except possibly sports) and determine how reliable journalism is. Unless there's a video of the actual event (and I mean a video as it happens, not Bob from the Washington Bureau shaking his head as the ambulances drive away) you can pretty much count on getting half the facts, badly distorted, and intentionally slanted to fit the reporter's (or their editor's) bias.

      News has ALWAYS been this way--it's just that you're noticing it more. About 35 years ago I had an article written about me in the local paper. It was filled with "direct quotes" of things that I never said, contained about six factual errors in two paragraphs, and was essentially completely divorced from the reality of what had happened.

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
    2. Re:Considering by dgun · · Score: 2

      I mostly agree. However, there has been a marked decline in quality over the years also.

      In particular, the casual mixing of commentary and news is troubling.

      The increase in the number of overall news sources, combined with the trend of fewer locally owned newspapers, radio stations, and TV stations has done real damage, IMO.

      --
      FAQs are evil.
    3. Re:Considering by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      And that's why I read blogs directly from the horse's mouth. I get my news from the people who actually care and know about it.

  32. Let the providers pay by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
    They won't of course, and this will be a good thing: FINALLY Yahoo will stop feeding me their noisome bullshit they call "news". I go there for email. I don't care about the biggest hamburger of all time, or what the latest scoop is on the Hollywood douchebag du jour. Likely, "news" will then become a feature of the "Premier" or paid account on Yahoo, which is FINE BY ME. Good grief, I could vomit with all the details I've been bombarded about Jon and Kate, and I don't even watch the damn show or have slightest care who the fuck these idiots are.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  33. You know what they need by Veretax · · Score: 1

    Instead of forcing consumers to pay, they need a viral network that will distribute their news to people in as many ways as they can possibly connect, while adding in the advertisements in just like they do on radio or TV. I imagine it could work something like the Cybus Earbuds you see in the BBC Science Fiction show "Doctor Who" :D

    Now that might scare a few people, but it is not meant to be, however, with Cell Phone use nearly ubiquitous in some parts of the world, maybe that's where news needs to be targetting instead of trying to play catch up, they might actually be able to 'innovate' and find a way to deliver news to readers in a way that gets their advertisers much better coverage.

    What do you guys think?

  34. Gossip Is Free by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    The news corporations have reduced their news products to he/she said gossip.

    The journalism that people used to buy in newspapers every day (sometimes twice a day) was the report of a person finding the actual facts and telling the actual story. The modern version, especially (but not at all exclusively) on TV, is the report of a person collecting different sides of an argument, telling what each arguer said (and editing them to look just as reasonable on each side). Radio news isn't even that: it's pure commentary propaganda, paid for by corporate sponsors (not at all necessarily the advertisers).

    Who would pay for that crap? Especially in the most propaganda news (the majority of it), the news org should pay its audience to consume it, as the product is designed to serve the news org's needs, usually contrary to its audience's needs.

    The news industry should be thriving in the Info Age, with free distribution and a nearly universal audience. Instead it kept its worst artifacts of the previous eras, especially its corruption, while its main moneymakers (embedded ads and classifieds) were done better by new, focused competitors after news orgs failed for over a decade to do it right.

    Payments for news that isn't either urgent (eg. its value in making more money or protecting lives/property vanishes after 15 minutes) or valuable to an audience too small to compete with an organized distribution org (eg. technical bulletins for specialists) is just as much delusion as is the Holy Grail. The quest for it is the industry. Actually having it is a fantasy.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  35. Newspapers need to get back into journalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Newspapers have a fundamental problem, which is that they do little original journalism, buying from sources like AAP and Reuters instead.

    They are not really in the business of selling papers to people, rather they provide eyeballs to parade advertisements in front of. The news is mere bait to entice the eyeballs to bite.

    Perhaps it made good business sense to outsource content and to focus on the core business, which is carrying advertisements to the eyeballs. As a strategy it seems to have worked well so far, and for radio and tv, too, but it fails in the era of the internet, and for the same reason why it used to work: Production cost. The cost of publishing a paper, also radio and tv, is enormous because a lot of very expensive equipment is needed. Sadly for the publishers, it costs approximately nothing to publish on the internet, just the cost of the content, really.

    The papers observe falling revenues at the same time that their consumption grows online, and may feel, incorrectly, that the paper they print and deliver is somehow competing with, and losing income from, their own online edition. But even though they get no revenue from online readers, neither does it cost much to provide the service; and while they continue to be read, they continue to have a product to sell: eyeballs, remember?

    The easy money in news comes from creating content, which you make available under licence. There aren't all that many people in that game, so competition is small and rewards are correspondingly higher. The papers will all line-up to pay for the right to republish, because that's what they do.

    David Newall

  36. Re:The difference between 0.00001 and free is mass by slim · · Score: 1

    While a free site will get a lot of visitors (most of whom are merely casual browser types) as soon as they start charging even the slightest amount you can expect their readership to fall off dramatically. Why is that?

    I see you've been reading Chris Anderson :)

    It's an absolutely valid point. But the other side of the coin is that when you charge even the slightest amount, and your readership drops, the readers who remain are demonstrably committed to your subject matter. Advertisers love that kind of audience. If you sell handlebars, would you rather pay $1000 to reach 100,000 web users who skim past bikemag.com for free, or $1000 to reach 10,000 web users who are so into bikes that they pay $1/month for premium access to the site?

    (Yes - this means you have to define a premium service where "no ads" isn't the selling point)

  37. Here, time is worth more than the price. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For one simple reason, micropayments as they are debated here will never work.

    When the product is too cheap, then the time and effort buying the product is the true cost to the buyer.

    In other words, after a certain point, it just has to be free, or it simply isn't worth it.

    What's more, if the seller doesn't value their product enough to charge a non-micro amount for it, then what they are doing is failing to make a value proposition, which is the essence of a business transaction.

    No one will pay pennies for something worth pennies.

    Newspapers are already cheap, but they are not free. But they aren't micro-priced either. Whether it is buying a paper at the stand or subscribing months at a time, there is a valid value proposition there.

    On-line media has yet to find that value proposition. Without that proposition, debating the technical details concerning how payments will be made is getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of yourself.

    1. Re:Here, time is worth more than the price. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For one simple reason, micropayments as they are debated here will never work.

      As they are debated here.. So wait, why wont $10 per view work again?

      Ooh right, I see what you did there...

  38. More details by sootman · · Score: 2, Informative

    For those interested in more detail about the economics and psychology behind Clay's theory that micropayments will never work, I recommend this earlier piece from 2000. Nine years later, we still haven't seen a viable micropayment system (where "micro" = 25 cents or less) and I don't think that will change.

    ...micropayments would still seem to have an advantage over larger payments, since the cost of the transaction is so low. Who could haggle over a penny's worth of content? After all, people routinely leave extra pennies in a jar by the cashier. Surely amounts this small makes valuing a micropayment transaction effortless?

    Here again micropayments create a double-standard. One cannot tell users that they need to place a monetary value on something while also suggesting that the fee charged is functionally zero. This creates confusion - if the message to the user is that paying a penny for something makes it effectively free, then why isn't it actually free? Alternatively, if the user is being forced to assent to a debit, how can they behave as if they are not spending money?

    Beneath a certain price, goods or services become harder to value, not easier, because the X for Y comparison becomes more confusing, not less. Users have no trouble deciding whether a $1 newspaper is worthwhile - did it interest you, did it keep you from getting bored, did reading it let you sound up to date - but how could you decide whether each part of the newspaper is worth a penny?

    Was each of 100 individual stories in the newspaper worth a penny, even though you didn't read all of them? Was each of the 25 stories you read worth 4 cents apiece? If you read a story halfway through, was it worth half what a full story was worth? And so on.

    When you disaggregate a newspaper, it becomes harder to value, not easier. By accepting that different people will find different things interesting, and by rolling all of those things together, a newspaper achieves what micropayments cannot: clarity in pricing.

    The very micro-ness of micropayments makes them confusing. At the very least, users will be persistently puzzled over the conflicting messages of "This is worth so much you have to decide whether to buy it or not" and "This is worth so little that it has virtually no cost to you."...

    Imagine you are moving and need to buy cardboard boxes. Now you could go and measure the height, width, and depth of every object in your house - every book, every fork, every shoe - and then create 3D models of how these objects could be most densely packed into cardboard boxes, and only then buy the actual boxes. This would allow you to use the minimum number of boxes.

    But you don't care about cardboard boxes, you care about moving, so spending time and effort to calculate the exact number of boxes conserves boxes but wastes time. Furthermore, you know that having one box too many is not nearly as bad as having one box too few, so you will be willing to guess how many boxes you will need, and then pad the number.

    For low-cost items, in other words, you are willing to overpay for cheap resources, in order to have a system that maximizes other, more important, preferences. Micropayment systems, by contrast, typically treat cheap resources (content, cycles, disk) as precious commodities, while treating the user's time as if were so abundant as to be free.

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    1. Re:More details by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      The problem is that newspapers have no fucking clue who their customers are. Their customers are NOT the readers. Not at all. The readers are their PRODUCT. They sell that product (reader eyeballs) to the advertisers. The way you get ahead in the business? Get more readers, make people want to read your paper, so you can sell more valuable advertising. Why do you think the New York Times gets many times the rate for a full-page ad as Your Hometown Bugle? It's because they have that much more valuable of an advertising space.

      When the news is free (rather, a lot cheaper) to distribute (you no longer have printing costs, delivery costs, warehouses, trucks, etc.), you can lower the cost of entry for your readers. Get more readers by having quality content, and boom, you can sell a shit-ton of advertising. Hell, there are numerous papers around town here that put out physical papers FOR FREE, using this same principle!

      And on that note, advertising doesn't have to suck. It can be part of your content.

    2. Re:More details by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Nice idea, but it doesn't work that way. Newspapers worked in 1960 because it was there when you got up in the morning or was there when you got on the train to go to work. The "news" was there and you had some time on your hands.

      Today, nobody has the time for that. I don't know anyone that gets up early enough in the morning to sit and read any part of a newspaper. And they aren't taking the train downtown, because the city centers have emptied of jobs - now everyone is driving to work. Usually in different directions.

      So the "leisure time" that was spent looking at a newspaper doesn't exist anymore for most people. The end result is that the newspaper is dead. Nobody is going to spend 30 minutes sitting in the morning reading a news web site either - they might do that at work but they aren't going to be spending anywhere near as much time.

      Good content isn't going to save newsmongers. For the most part, nobody cares. They get their "news" from 100 different sources in little tiny bites rather than sitting down for a full meal.

    3. Re:More details by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      There's still money in those little bites. Newspapers just need to realize they're in the "news" business, and not the "selling paper" business.

    4. Re:More details by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Today, nobody has the time for that. I don't know anyone that gets up early enough in the morning to sit and read any part of a newspaper.

      I assume you combine breakfast with either your drive to work or with your first half-hour of working? I read half the newspaper (the "national news" section) over (technically, under) breakfast, and the rest when I get home from work.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  39. The future is not black and white by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As usual, what will end up happening will be something between the two extremes.

    Not every news site will be able to, or even want to go with a paid subscription model. Some sites that are charging for content at present, such as the WSJ, will continue to do so. Quite a few more will make the shift to paid access, only some of these will be successful in doing so, some will fold and the rest will go back to the present model of advertising.

    What people will see real value in, and will be accepting of paying for is opinion, insight and thought. Current events are raw data - they happen and they're reported as-is. Where the value lies is turning that raw data into information and this is what people will pay for. As an example, anyone can walk into the Australian Bureau of Statistics and get raw import/export data for commodities. There is no value in someone else simply republishing these statistics. What there is value in is looking at the series over time, analysing the data with your knowledge of the industry, saying why things happened in the past and what they're likely to do in the future. People will pay a lot of money for this kind of information.

  40. Mod this up. Best idea today! by professorguy · · Score: 1

    If I like a piece of content (article, podcast, interactive graphic, whatever), I click the "Tip the Author(s)" button, and a chunk of my $50, maybe 10 cents, gets redirected

    Genius! Someone mod this up.

    And the lazy or unconcerned will get default disbursement. The people who care most will have a reasonable capability to decide.

  41. An alternative to micro-payments by hierofalcon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another solution.

    Provide an on-line pass with the primary subscription to your local paper. Once you sign on to your local paper's internet site, you receive a cookie that permits you to access any other on-line content of the consortium for the day.

    The papers get a win by increasing local readership and circulation. You don't have to worry about micro-payments. If you don't subscribe to the local paper, you're left with micro-payments to access major papers content.

  42. But to whom are they beholden? by professorguy · · Score: 1

    With costs distributed to both advertisers AND readers, the paper has to satisfy both. When only advertisers pay, the paper no longer serves YOU, it serves a corporation only. Looking at papers where this already occurs reveals they suck.

  43. Wrong argument by thethibs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's worth noting that newspapers don't do radio news and they don't do television news. Each medium ultimately finds its own business model.

    Paper, radio, TV news content is paid for by advertising.

    The shape of internet news is already evident. The only thing missing is blog sites that start bringing in enough revenue to put journalists and researchers on staff. Suppose HubPages or Blogger decided to set up a section for hard, fact-checked news and well-respected columnists. The ad rate in this section would climb fast. Positive feedback and competition does the rest.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  44. I have an idea... by Dreadneck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If only the corporate media and big ISPs could find a way to lock down the internet and control access to and dissemination of information and content... Yeah, that's the ticket!

    Am I the only one who sees this as yet another argument by corporate media and big ISPs as to why they need to become the gatekeepers of the internet?

    I may be wrong, but I see this as just another salvo in the war against net neutrality.

    --
    Power does not corrupt - power attracts the corrupt.
  45. Zero price trumps any market by mangu · · Score: 1

    Every additional cent that you charge for a copy of your publication does not increase your profits. Instead, it decreases your circulation.

    Agreed. And I think you should factor in non-monetary costs also. For example, what it costs you to navigate a site full of pop-ups and banner ads. The cost of clicking ten times the "next page" button for an article that would easily fit in one page. THe cost of flash or javascript taking over 99% of your CPU.

    Remember the old Altavista? It used to have tons of ads in its search page. Then Google came in with its clean visual and took over the search engine market.

    Conclusion: it pays not to be greedy.

    1. Re:Zero price trumps any market by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 1

      I agree. I have a website: freejavalectures.googlepages.com that contains no ads of any kind and it has a google page rank of 5/10 worldwide. I have spent exactly $0 dollars on it. Then you go to most other tutorial-style sites and they are jammed with ads with a tiny bit in the center given over to dribs of content.

  46. Headlines and summaries work for most things by Rastl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A few things I've found by having several news sites in my rotation.

    1. The same story will appear in exactly the same format on multiple sites.
    2. The same story will appear multiple times on the same site (I'm lookin' at you Yahoo News).
    3. A headline and summary will suffice for 98% of the news I read since I don't care about the nitty gritty.

    With that in mind I would possibly pay for a handful of 'full stories' every week but for the bulk of them they're just not that interesting. I like knowing Event A happened but I don't need the in-depth analysis. But I wouldn't sign up on multiple sites and hand over payment information willy-nilly nor would I want to have to jump through multiple hoops to get access to the story. By the time that happens I will have already lost interest. Don't even start with putting down a balance on each site to have access to their content.

    1. Re:Headlines and summaries work for most things by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lots of news stories are from wire services, which means one article will be printed in numerous papers. A news aggregator site probably won't test to see if similar stories from similar papers are actually the same. I've got an AP feed app on my iPhone, which is a more direct way of getting AP stories. I haven't looked to see if other wire services have iPhone apps.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  47. MicroTransactions by Danimoth · · Score: 1

    A little offtopic, but I was looking into running a service based on transactions under $1 but I simlpy couldn't make the numbers work. All the services I looked at that would accept credit cards took at least $.20 of any transaction which would just trash any margins we would have. Any ideas?

    --
    No smoking sigs indoors.
    1. Re:MicroTransactions by julesh · · Score: 1

      A little offtopic, but I was looking into running a service based on transactions under $1 but I simlpy couldn't make the numbers work. All the services I looked at that would accept credit cards took at least $.20 of any transaction which would just trash any margins we would have. Any ideas?

      The only field where microtransactions appear to be having any traction at all, MMORPGs, have come up with the idea of congregating a number of games together under a single site, then having you buy credits on that site in minimum transaction sizes of about $3-5, which you can divide as you see fit between the games running there.

      Could you adapt this idea for your business plan?

  48. Experience Goods is an Economic Term by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Nonsense. You get to "experience" a periodical in every issue.

    You didn't bother to follow the link and learn what an experience good is did you? I'm not talking about some sort of gestalt or an amusement park "experience". An experience good is a term economists use for items you can't evaluate until after you have them in your possession. You don't know if information is valuable until AFTER you already have the information. When you pay for the Wall Street Journal, you aren't paying for specific information, you are paying for the reputation of that magazine for reliably providing interesting/useful content. If you already knew the content in advance of reading it there would be nothing worth paying for.

    Even if the content
    is only available in hard copy you can still easily browse it and all of
    it's immediate competitors (library, bookstore).

    You really didn't understand. No publication can sell you information you already have. The act of consumption (reading the paper) is one way act. Once you have read the information not even the might Wall Street Journal can make you un-read it. The good (information in this case) has already been consumed. Only after you have read it can you make a determination of value.

    This is somewhat different than music where there is some entertainment value in listening to the same music repeatedly. News is much more of a wasting asset. Once news is consumed it is unusual that anyone reads it again and it loses most of its monetary value.

    The character of The Journal doesn't change from one day to the next.

    The content does change every day and not every article is valuable to every person. Not even the mighty Wall Street Journal has any way to know in advance whether I will regard a particular bit of information as valuable or what I will think it is worth. The best they can do is publish the best articles they can on a variety of topics and bundle them together in the hopes the consumer will find a sufficient number valuable.

  49. Papers are propaganda why pay? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So now you will pay for them to manufacture your consent for another war (AfPakRaqRan), tax money to the banks, no health insurance but payments to insurance companies and the rest of the corporate agenda. I do not think so.

  50. The problem with the paywall by sjames · · Score: 1

    Putting a paywall up on the website won't fix their fundamental issues. The problem they have is that fewer people subscribe or buy a daily paper than in the past. All a paywall on the website will do is make their web hits decline in a similar manner. If they want to solve their problem, they need to figure out why readership is declining in general, not treat the web as a special case.

    I can't speak for all potential readers, but I can state some of my own reasons, particularly those where I know at least some others share them.

    Part of it is that we no longer feel informed when we read the paper. The political news rarely gets beyond partisan bickering. Big deal some Republicrat called a Demican a doodie head again. Just like yesterday and the day before. That's not entirely the newspaper's fault, the only why there is because they are members of opposing parties. Just like yesterday and the day before. I might be interested in reading an insightful look into the opposing philosophies and reasoned arguments for and against, but they can't give me that because there are no reasoned arguments anymore, just a bunch of adults acting like kindergartners.

    There probably ARE some people in Washington willing to give a reasoned andwer to insightful questions, they need to find them and find within their own ranks someone who still knows how to ask an insightful question. If the opposition spouts nonsense, they'll just have to say so at the end. and accept that a story can only be balanced if both parties are willing to express themselves and their thinking rationally.

    I realize that the kind of interviewing necessary to get such a story is the sort that gets you dis-invited to press conferences. That's unfortunate, but I suppose at least one paper could bill itself is the most hated in Washington and then focus on genuine investigative reporting. That brings up the next problem:

    News in general has become all about the sponsors. They don't want to report anything that might offend the sponsors. The real customer is the corporate interests that buy ad space. Regular people aren't buying newspapers because they are at some level aware that it's not for them. The problem with that is the sponsors don't buy newspapers and if nobody else does, there's no benefit to being a sponsor. If they want to live behind a paywall, perhaps they can manage by setting a policy to piss off as many potential sponsors as possible every day. No more printing press releases as if they were real news. Investigative journalism is much more than just asking a few people what they would like for the paper to say about them.

    The press is supposed to play a vital role in democracy by telling the stories government would rather they DIDN'T tell. They're not going to be able to do that while trying to be everyone's buddy so they get invited to press conferences and first dibs on the meaningless sound bite.

    "The Daily Show" is becoming a popular news source simply because however silly it gets and however little attention it pays to journalistic integrity, they're the only "news" that actually seems to question what they're told anymore.

  51. This is not true by symbolset · · Score: 1

    What you pay for a paper helps offset some of the cost of delivering it to you. The newsprint and ink and printing press and reportage and editing are paid out of advertising. That's why they're hurting. Nobody wants to run a newspaper ad when they get better results from Craigslist for free. So now they want us to pay for content, which we've never done before, but no doubt they'll want us to pay for content + advertising. No way. If I'm going to have to suffer the ads anyway, I'll get the free version that's paid by ads. If I'm paying, it had better be ad free.

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    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  52. delusion. folks will go for krep that is free. by swschrad · · Score: 1

    not a new idea, but if this is going to work, there will have to be a central news payback authority that issues accounts to netizens, who then drop credit in those accounts, and they debit when a news organization's premium corner is accessed.

    and it won't work well based on the slow, cranky response and stall-outs that have been increasing and dominating newspaper sites over the past year. it's going to be like a communications provider... invest in the site to make it work, then charge for it.

    fail, die.

    blowhards, liars, and phonies with no charge for shovelling the krep onto your desktop will otherwise get the hits, and society will continue to slide down the dumbness scale.

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    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  53. Micropayments = Newstheft as a new type of crime? by WorkEmail · · Score: 1

    If each news story requires a micropayment, doesn't that mean that sites like Slashdot, should they post little quotes and information from News sites, are guilty of a crime?

  54. What do you mean 'OR'? by taradfong · · Score: 1

    Holy Grail OR Delusion? A Holy Grail *is* a delusion!

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    Does it hurt to hear them lying? Was this the only world you had?
  55. content and fill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Big media owners value things differently than consumers do. For TV, the owners refer to ads as the "content," while the shows are "fill." With most corporate newspapers it's much the same, ads are the profitable part, articles are an expense which bring in the eyeballs for ads. (This wouldn't be quite so bad except corporate owners and their advertiser colleagues now have a huge influence on which articles are written and how.) Your monthly newspaper bill barely covers paper costs and the delivery kid; micropayments are similar, they can make a difference but they're a barely noticeable income compared to advertisers.

    Look for more corporate "compelling content" like celebrity news and missing pretty women. Useful corporate news will be expensive, behind pay firewalls or distributed as expensive newsletters. For useful news for the rest of us, look to alternative news collectives and the occasional exceptional blog.

  56. I don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I sense a problem that can be solved with S****ISM (deleted as a proactive measure to stop the political-right from having a heart-attack).

    How would sexism help?

  57. Re:pay after reading (from cashbacks) by Mandrel · · Score: 1

    If you can't determine the value of news until after you read it, isn't any system based on pay-by-value voluntary?

    Here's one voluntary solution and one compulsory solution. These only work for material that assists people in some direct or indirect way with product purchases. Such material can of course cross-subsidise hard news, as has always been the case.

    Voluntary: Make it possible for purchasers to make donations to creators of material that has helped them choose the product they have bought, and allow these donations to be paid out of a manufacturer's cash rebate. Donations are more likely in this case because the donor is being prompted during a cashback claim to give a portion of something that's not yet in their pocket. No credit card required.

    Compulsory: Allow publishers to charge a firm fee for an item, but allow this fee to be recovered from subsequent cash rebates the reader receives. The reader pays nothing up-front.

  58. Bundling vs. a la carte by Mandrel · · Score: 1

    Newspapers are already cheap, but they are not free. But they aren't micro-priced either. Whether it is buying a paper at the stand or subscribing months at a time, there is a valid value proposition there.

    Yes, big media will be loath to replace their bundling with item-based micropayments, because that would devalue their masthead and put them on an equal footing with smaller competitors. So they'll first try to make their bundles bigger (perhaps through a cartel).

  59. Is state-run news or corporate news better? by mykos · · Score: 1

    I am honestly torn on this issue. On one hand, I feel the news agencies need to adapt their business model. On the other hand, if news agencies decide that news is unprofitable and just stop doing it, most of our news will come from a source that has no need to profit: the government. That isn't to say that for-profit news organizations don't use the news as a means to propagandize, but I know what governments like do when they are the only voice. Can anyone lend me some peace of mind here?

  60. Micropayment white-lists by Mandrel · · Score: 1

    It's true that it'd be infeasible to have to authorise payment for each article, but you could have a system where you bless certain publications to charge you a particular amount for each item, valid for a particular period. Then you've just got to manage this white-list.

  61. Micropayments are scary by Eudial · · Score: 1

    I'm scared of micropayments. It conjures up a picture of tiny holes in my wallet that continuously leak small ammounts of money, only, a lot of tiny holes leaking small ammounts of money ammounts to a lot of money leaking away.

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    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  62. Re:Flooz payments? by Macrat · · Score: 1

    Whatever happened to Flooz credit?

  63. Re:Micropayments = Newstheft as a new type of crim by taucross · · Score: 1

    No, we'll just take it from Techdirt.

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    "In the absence of the ability to establish the attribute of truth they tried to establish the noble attributes."
  64. Re:Flooz payments? by argent · · Score: 1

    After Guinan left 10 Forward they couldn't get another Trek endorsement and it collapsed.

  65. Been working fine for OhmyNews by b00stA · · Score: 1

    This might not be entirely the same thing, but South Korea's online magazine http://www.ohmynews.com/ lets readers pay any small amount to the author if they liked the article. Though it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the English Wiki page.

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    Stop making that big face!