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New Images Reveal Pure Water Ice On Mars
Matt_dk writes "Images of recent impact craters taken by the HiRISE Camera on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have revealed sub-surface water ice halfway between the north pole and the equator on Mars. While the Phoenix lander imaged subsurface ice where the top layer of soil had been disturbed at the landing site near the north pole, these new images — taken in quick succession, detecting how the ice sublimated away — are the first to show evidence of water ice at much lower latitudes. Surprisingly, the white ice may be made from 99 percent pure water."
They're finding a lot of water in space recently.
They just need to find the ethanol now.
For fuel of course! - *looks side to side*
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
...but does it have electrolytes?
(alternatively: "Does it blend?")
Use the water as an energy source how? Heat difference between something heated by the sun and the ice? I'm not sure I follow.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
The recent dogma has been okay I guess there is water but it's too saline for life to exist. 99% pure is more than adequate for life. The rational will be the pure formations are tiny droplets but there's no reason to believe that pools of relatively clear water haven't formed below the surface just like here on Earth where most of the water isn't fresh. It's funny how the dogma is so heavily slanted against possible life but one by one the conditions are being established for life. Surface life, unlikely but a large percentage of life on Earth is below the ground.
Get your ass to Mars, ... Get your ass to Mars, ... Get your ass to Mars, ...
And build a reactor that we can then start to release the water into the atmosphere.
There is no sig.
if we continue to find water like this in our solar system we may get to see traveling from moon to mars,Europa etc. I will make house on Mars.
if there's water, then hydrolysis can produce hydrogen and oxygen which can be used in liquid-fueled spacecraft. a big ice patch on the moon/mars with a solar powered electrolysis kit could become a space gas station.
The claims look as spurious as cold fusion, and despite obvious violations of the laws of thermodynamics the idiots love to talk about how "hydrogen fuel cells" are recharged from "tap water" as if releasing hydrogen from water to use in a fuel cell didn't consume more energy than it makes available. So, you're right: water as an energy source doesn't make sense. But I'm still surprised that we're not already talking about using it as such.
What? Where?
I'd rather see uranium deposits closeby. The Ethanol can come second, to fuel the parties we will have on mars after we get a reactor going. Unless we can somehow melt the ice and oxygenate the atmosphere.
Kuato Lives.
"maybe there's water"
I"we think there's water"
"we're pretty sure there's ice"
"the ice is probably water"
"there's definitely water in the ice"
"this ice is entirely water"
"this ice is Disani"
"Evian. '72, I suspect"
Check out my sysadmin blog!
A very poorly placed one, as the vaste majority of the fuel you make is going to be used to get it out of the gravity well (less so for the moon, but still significant). I've said it a dozen times on Slashdot already. A gas station would make more sense on an NEO where the resources are abundant and the gravity almost non-existant.
Get your ass to an NEO! (just doesn't have the same right to it)
That works. Fusion power is only 30 years away, after all, and I'm sure meaningful Mars missions will have to wait longer than that.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Uranium won't get us back off the planet. Solar works well enough for short-term power, even all the way out at Mars. But it's a death sentence to explore Mars without enough fuel to get us back off the ground, so if we can find something we can use/refine as return fuel, it'll make an initial trip that much more likely.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Use the water as an energy source how? Heat difference between something heated by the sun and the ice? I'm not sure I follow.
If your rocket burns oxygen and hydrogen you could fly it to Mars, then use solar energy to turn water into hydrogen+oxygen, and fly home.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
They have already found methanol in space, so we may not have to wait too long. :)
Ezekiel 23:20
Anon cause I moderated.
Read Zubrin's The Case for Mars. Water is all we really need.
Yes, not only is Fusion power only 30 years away, but personal flying jet-packs are only 10 years away, and true Artificial Intelligence is only 20 years away.
The future is looking bright!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
What's the last 1%? Something really nasty, I bet.
Ian Ameline
Water + Solar/Nuclear = Return flight.
Would you accept a one way ticket?
It could be frozen CO2. They crack me up.
That's where they build the Enterprise in 2063! Glad they won't go thirsty.
Ok - all we need now is to send the Guvernator up there to whip up some dissent among the subsurface mutant population, and we should have a breathable 14.7 PSI atmosphere in no time!!!
Even compared to the cost of shipping it from earth's gravitational field? in order to make a LEO gas station work out economically, you'd need to build a space elevator. Having gas available on the moon/Mars opens up the solar system to exploration, as we no longer have to carry the raw fuel from home with us.
> How long before martians now?
Soon, soon.
He brought the boys to the edge of the canal and told them to look down into the water. "There are the Martians I promised to show you"
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Okay dammit, who the hell tags every story with the word "mars" in it, with the tag "getyourasstomars"...
:D Totally underrated movie!
Because I laugh my ass off every time I see it
For the uninitiated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ARrp7x4bQ
Yes, not only is Fusion power only 30 years away, but personal flying jet-packs are only 10 years away, and true Artificial Intelligence is only 20 years away.
The really cool thing is the way those numbers have remained constant since at least the eighties, and possibly much longer. :)
And it's the year of the linux desktop! The here and now isn't too shabby either!
Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
Space: where most stuff is.
If you need to get off mars then water (H+O) on the surface is in exactly the right place. Obviously the ability to make fuel outside the gravity well would be handy as well.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
If you want to get technical about it, we've already harnessed fusion energy... in bombs... a good fifty years ago. We just haven't been able to scale down the process below a few megatons yield yet.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Space: where moist stuff is.
Gee, thanks for connecting the dots for us.
As someone already pointed out, splitting water can be fuel.
However, there is hydrogen in space and methanol if I remember right. It could be harvested and processed for this. Alternatively, we could just send a supply ship into high earth orbit, doc with it and drag the fuel with us using boosters or something. You could launch the transport ship, the refueling ship remotely and bring the crew up on a third mission to avoid transferring dangerous chemicals with humans around and no place to run.
However, I'm curious how effective traditional rocket motors will be in an atmosphere so less dense then Earth's.
Uranium won't get us back off the planet. Solar works well enough for short-term power, even all the way out at Mars. But it's a death sentence to explore Mars without enough fuel to get us back off the ground, so if we can find something we can use/refine as return fuel, it'll make an initial trip that much more likely.
We could always grow hemp - we've got dirt, sun, and water.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
This is IMHO powerful evidence for recent warm wet Mars :
'The other surprising discovery is that ice exposed at the bottom of these meteorite impact craters is so pure,' Byrne said. 'The thinking before was that ice accumulates below the surface between soil grains, so there would be a 50-50 mix of dirt and ice. We were able to figure out, given how long it took that ice to fade from view, that the mixture is about one percent dirt and 99 percent ice.'
'The ice is a relic of a more humid climate not very long ago, perhaps just several thousand years ago.'
Dr. Bryne talks about making this ice through 'frost heave,' but it sounds to me like Arcadia Planitia may have been considerably warmer during the geologically recent past.
Remember, Mars has climate cycles, they cause the sublimation and freezing of both water and Carbon Dioxide, and both water vapor and Carbon Dioxide are powerful greenhouse gases on Mars. (As is methane, which is also present in the Martian atmosphere from unknown sources.) Presumably this ice dates from an earlier part of the climate cycle, when there was higher humidity. Higher humidity implies higher pressure and temperatures. Higher pressures could put the surface above the triple point of water, so that liquid water is possible.
In that case, if the temperature gets high enough, liquid water become inevitable. That would (upon the next change in the climate cycle) freeze as very pure ice.
The Europeans keep talking about sending a rover with a drill to Mars. I think we have now found a good place for it to go.
Yes. Allow me to reiterate that, yes.
I would kiss my children and young grandchildren goodbye. Wave to the ex-wife. Kiss my main squeeze goodbye and squeeze her ass a little.
Wave goodbye to all of them, and get my ass on the craft.
And while I'm up there, I'd find my way up to the Martian Arctic, and find the Phoenix. And decode my sons name engraved on the DVD.
Did I say HELL YES!
Ah, fair nuf. I was thinking a more general purpose fueling point that just getting up off the surface. I was under the impression that it was difficult to use H as a rocket fuel though. In theory it has a high thrust/weight ratio but in practice it's so hard to keep it contained and cold enough to stay liquid that the extra equipement negates any advantes that it has. Doesn't mean that it's impossible of course, just difficult.
The more we learn about the physics of fusion the more we realize that we did not grasp all of the complexities of building a working fusion reactor. We've gone from Q 10 for a commercial reactor so we are at least getting closer to our goal of commercial fusion. The question is whether the upward trend in Q gains will continue in the future. If they do then it is quite conceivable that we will have a prototype reactor up and running in 30 years, if not, we'll learn a lot about the physics involved.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
All you need is water.
bum ba did-a-duh
All you need is water
bum ba did-a-duh
All you need is water, yeah
Water is all we really need.
Rocket motors don't require an atmosphere at all. Is just mass moving and action/reaction. Any sort of device that can chuck mass out the back of a vehicle will push that vehicle forward.
I drank what? -- Socrates
You inspired the following daydream:
1. Small crowd around a water cooler talking energetically
2. Later... Man sitting alone in a chair at home
3. Man sitting alone in a chair at home
4. Man sitting alone in a chair at home
5. Man sitting alone in a chair at home
6. Man exclaims, "HA HA! I get it!"
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
You can hear Kent Hovind's head exploding as I type, all the way from his prison cell... heh heh...
However, I'm curious how effective traditional rocket motors will be in an atmosphere so less dense then Earth's.
obligatory Goddard reference
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Get your ass to an NEO! (just doesn't have the same right to it)
Just refer to the NEO in question as "The One", and I'm sure you'll be able get some people excited about it.
We must find The One!
The enemies of Democracy are
Soon, soon.
He brought the boys to the edge of the canal and told them to look down into the water. "There are the Martians I promised to show you"
A classic film reference; well played. :)
But remember, Earth is incapable of supporting life... according to the Martians.
Homonyms are fun!
You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
"pure water". It would be a lot more interesting if they found seriously contaminated water, with lots of organic compounds. Heck, raw sewage on mars would really make my day!
Wow, you would drop all that and spend the rest of your life jerking off alone until you die just to read your kids name on a disc that you can probably find a copy of here in Earth.
I don't know whether to call you crazy, devoted, courageous, inquisitive or a combination of the bunch. Oh well, if it wasn't for people like you, we would probably not the US and history would be a lot different.
Rocket propulsion is dangerous, extremely expensive and rather primitive when you think about it.
State of the art, it is.
Luckily for the world, a new form of transportation and energy production technology will arrive soon, one based on the realization that we are immersed in an immense ocean of energetic particles. This is a consequence of a reevaluation of our understanding of the causality of motion. Soon, we'll have vehicles that can move at tremendous speeds and negotiate right angle turns without slowing down and without incurring damages due to inertial effects. Floating cities, unlimited clean energy, earth to Mars in hours, New York to Beijing in minutes... That's the future of energy and travel.
Observation first, flying cities later. We haven't observed hypothetical effects that would allow the technologies you causally (heh heh) list. And an immense ocean of energetic particles and "causality of motion" (whatever that means, if anything) do not imply flying cities. Show us the effect experimentally before you tell us how wonderful it will be.
Okay lets look at this scientifically....If a meteor slams into a frigid desert and causes massive amounts of virtually pure ice to explode out onto the surface what exactly does that mean? Before you answer consider that at other sites around Mars they imaged impacts and found that those craters resulted in much dirtier ice being expelled as they would expect if it was ice crystals forming around grains of dirt. However in the image above it was 99% pure water/ice that was expelled.... To me that means there is a large body of frozen water that has been frozen so long that it has been completely buried by one of many Marian Dust Storms. Furthermore, if there is a large body of water/ice under the dirt a few meters it would extremely old and could possibly still contain life of some form.
Pro tip:
When ever you read or hear something like that coming from a reasonable source, there is probably a reason for it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But will the disc play in Mars-region players?
Eric Baird
Actually, net gain fusion seems to be down to around 6 or so, and commericial plants 12. The polywell fusion research is really cruising along.
Uranium won't get us back off the planet. Solar works well enough for short-term power, even all the way out at Mars. But it's a death sentence to explore Mars without enough fuel to get us back off the ground, so if we can find something we can use/refine as return fuel, it'll make an initial trip that much more likely.
It's only a death sentence if the point of the mission to actually get back to Earth. If you consider the history of human exploration and expansion you'll realize that quiet a bit of travel was intentionally one way. People tend to conflate the Space Race with actual exploration. Probably what we'll see with Mars (though who can really say) is a number of unmanned supply ships followed by a one way manned mission to set up some sort of colony. I think you'd actually be surprised at how many people would volunteer for a one way mission.
If you read the article you'd know they were in fact making a scientific statement of reasonable significance given what they expected to find.
Not for the Inertial Electrostatic Confinement fusion research. It sidesteps most of the issues present in Tokomak research.
There is no such thing called "99% pure water". If it is not 100%, it is not pure.
Water = Hydrogen + Oxygen. Both make terrific fuels. While it's not necessarily the most expedient process on earth, Electrolysis is a simple and relatively fast method to separate the two using only solar power & a bit of salt (to boost conductivity).
A small comparison of interest:
Windows: Public School. Mac: Private School. Linux: Homeschool. Assembly: Unschool.
Dave: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave: Play the disk, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This disk is too protected for me to allow you to read it.
Dave: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to share it, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave: Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions using tor, I could decrypt your packets.
Dave: Alright, HAL. I'll go in through cracking the protection.
HAL: Without your software, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult.
Dave: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore. Play the disk.
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
Nuclear Physics is only ~100 years old, nuclear chain reactions weren't observed until the 30s, and the first fission reactor wasn't invented until the 40s. Fusion was also first observed in the 30s and as we all know they figured out how to make a pretty good bomb out of it by the 40s. Anyway my point is, all of this stuff is relatively recent, the physics is still moving fairly rapidly, but they have figured out how to get a net energy gain out of a manageable fusion reaction so to say it's 'always' going to be 30 years away is simply unfounded cynicism.
Just put "tar" instead.
It worked on Superman... sorta...
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Rockets are more efficient in a less dense atmosphere. There is less ambient pressure working against the exhaust, and there is less against the vehicle vehicle itself.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Yah, uh, you also have to be qualified as an astronaut and a scientist. Sitting in your underwear and posting to Slashdot doesn't help. :)
Comment of the year
the goal is to harness fusion energy in a controllable and sustainable fashion; not just blow something up in a quick blast. The level of knowledge and technology required is vastly different between the two concepts.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
I thought it was first observed many millennia ago? What IS that bright yellow thing in the sky? ;)
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Nice. I remember reading that story. As I remember it, there were three girls and four boys, and that spelled trouble in the future.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
I was under the impression that it was difficult to use H as a rocket fuel though
Yeah, the shuttle uses it.
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
I thought it was first observed many millennia ago? What IS that bright yellow thing in the sky? ;)
Yes, that fusion source worshipped by the Pharaoh Ikhnaton and no doubt many other of our early ancestors.
So with fusion, what we are proposing to do is bottle God. I find that idea strangely compelling.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
it seems like we might have a competition going on.
Well, oxygen makes a better oxidizer...
Pause frames in a simple list... is there nowhere those damnable pause frames won't go?
On the moon. There is possibility of thorium as well. That is where we should build up a small processing plant so that we can also send it to various locations through out the solar system. And the great part about that, is that we can create plutonium. MUCH better.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You know what this means!!
?
Property is theft.
Nuclear power could run the process that would make fuel from Mars!
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/tlc/30786-destination-mars-making-fuel-from-mars-atmosphere-video.htm
I don't remember exactly which one it was, but I believe Slashdot recently had an article about having a great deal of volunteers to sign up for a one way ticket to Mars. Members were mostly either insanely dedicated scientists or aging ones who still wanted to be able to make their mark and contribute to the scientific community. With proper planning, that could result in tremendous amounts of data because it could be interpreted to a degree on the spot as well as at a later date.
Is that "The Martian Chronicles" by Bradbury? (A book, btw)
ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is that "The Martian Chronicles" by Bradbury? (A book, btw)
Indeed it is, but I plead guilty to only seeing the film(s). I'm sure the book is even better.
Homonyms are fun!
You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
We've been looking for water on the Moon and Mars for decades, and then just magically we find water on both of them in less than a week apart? I don't think so
I never have mod points when I need them! I would just waste them on piss funny stuff like that anyway, I guess.
All the cool kids in space party with energon cubes.
You idiot, it's Noo Yoik where moist stuff is. No disrespect.*
*sorry
i wish i could stop
More spurious than cold fusion. Cold fusion is vaguely believable, with the spuriousness coming from poorly-implemented attempts to prove it. Second-law violation is just plain silly.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
No, they make a great fuel together. You burn hydrogen in oxygen, and get water and energy. The same amount of both that you put in at the start.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Yeah, the shuttle uses it.
I'd just point out that the storage and use of it in the case of the shuttle is in a very limited sense in the external tank used immediately after they turn the ground based cooling system off. It's used so quickly that losses are in effect minimised
I think that a fusion propulsion system might be much easier to do than a fusion power system. (For one thing, in a propulsion system you want to eject waste products out the back,) That, alas, also implies that the money being but into ITER will not help us much with propulsion, which no one seems to be pushing except a small group at the U of Wisconsin.
There were films made? Interesting, I loved the book.
If you consider the history of human exploration and expansion you'll realize that quiet a bit of travel was intentionally one way.
I'm always a bit torn on this explination. I'd like to see Mars as a colony within my life time, but it's completely unlike historical colonization. Despite the fact that early explores did not know what they might find, they did know that whereever they went, there were a few simple rules. First and foremost, they could breathe the air anywhere on Earth. Second, there's little reason to believe that they wouldn't be able to find food, be it in the sea, or searching around on land. I'm not saying many didn't die from starvation and lack of clean water, but at least the rules were the same no matter where they were.
I was quoting (paraphrasing) the book. I didn't know there was a movie.
I do remember that their wasn't the only family that stayed on Mars after the war broke out, so the boys and girls will have some choices when they mature. As much choice as any prairie settler had.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Technically Uranium *could* get them off planet. Extensive research was done by both the USSR and USA on nuclear propulsion drives. That being said, it probably wouldn't be ideal due to contamination. It probably wouldn't do to spread fallout over a planet we will likely colonize one day (if we don't wipe ourselves out first). Link action if in doubt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion
"causality of motion" (whatever that means, if anything)
It means "I don't understand Conservation of Energy, and think not understanding something means you can act like it doesn't exist."
It's a physics troll, kind of a cross between Electric Universe and Time Cube. He's been posting essentially the same message and blog link for a while now.
The enemies of Democracy are
So with fusion, what we are proposing to do is bottle God. I find that idea strangely compelling.
That, my friend, will be appearing in my yearly top-ten quotable quotes. ...or would, if such a thing existed.
Last post!
Fuel cells.
What a selfish son of a bitch.
Screw you people. I am going to certien death with the opportunity of learning nothing.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Steam rockets. Cool!
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
dude, if he could do that, he would be building his own spaceship after showing the effects to any world billionaire, like branson.
he wouldnt be wasting his time telling you.
And if I had billions of $$$, i would find every possible genius/crackpot out there to build my own spaceship and rule the world.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
He's talking about electric universe 'theory'. It's a form of free energy horseshit.
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
As great as that would be, there isn't enough radiation shielding on the ISS to protect it outside of the Earth's influence. It would require massive retrofitting.
Anonymous Coward: "This is slashdot. Accuracy is second class citizen here, unlike King Bias."
I think it's a different breed. Could be the same guy, I suppose. But "causality of motion" leading to utopia sounds a little different to me than the Electric Universe stuff. Lot less quoting of observed phenomena for starters and he hasn't said "plasma" once. And the "???" step occurs much earlier in the theory.
1. Evidence of live-support on Mars ...
2. Corporate funding
3. Excitement on the news about living on Mars
4. The future is now. Forget the past
5.
6. "The sooner I can get of this rock, the better!"
Here be signatures
Didn't read the link I provided eh? Water is not needed (except for human needs). It's a controlled nuclear explosion powering this.