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Scientists Write Memories Directly Into Fly Brains
TheClockworkSoul writes "Researchers at the University of Oxford have devised a way to write memories onto the brains of flies, revealing which brain cells are involved in making bad memories. The researchers said that in flies, just 12 brain cells were responsible for what is known as 'associative learning.' They modified these neurons by adding receptors for ATP, so that the cells activate in the presence of the chemical, but since ATP isn't usually found floating around a fly's brain, the flies generally behave just like any other fly. Most interestingly, however, is that the scientists then injected ATP into the flies' brains, in a form that was locked inside a light-sensitive chemical cage. When they shined a laser on the fly brains, the ATP was released, and the 'associative learning' cells were activated. The laser flash was paired with an odor, effectively giving the fly a memory of a bad experience with the odor that it never actually had, such that it then avoided the odor in later experiments. The researchers describe their findings in the journal Cell."
The scientists later discovered that even fly's without this injected memory avoided the odor. One man was quoted saying "It smelled pretty bad."
Wouldn't having a laser pointed at your brain in the presence of an odor kind of count as a 'bad experience'?
I'm not sure how you create a control group for an experiment like this- shine the laser in the absence of odors so the fly is terrified of clean places? Isn't that how most flies act already?
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
In my day we just ripped their wings off. This new stuff is REALLY sick...
sudo mount --milk --sugar
NPR's Science Friday had an interview with the one of the scientists this morning. You can listen to the segment here: http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200910161
This kind of surgery smells of butchery. Can't wait for upgrade patches.
http://xkcd.org/644/
Are we sure it was a new memory they created? Because we can't just interview the flies about what they were thinking, how do we know the smell conjured up a fake memory rather than, say, just a strong feeling of unease?
Doesn't having your "this is a bad experience" receptors activated count as a bad experience? I don't mean the whole brain-and-laser unpleasantness, I mean having negative-association cells firing in your brain at all. It might not just count as a bad association later, it might be pretty unpleasant now. In which case it's not a fake memory, it's a real memory.
For flies maybe this question has no meaning... maybe flies aren't conscious. If they did this to a higher animal (I have a horrible suspicion they will) it would be a question to ask. But a good question for this experiment would be: when they fire those brain cells, do the flies try to avoid what's going on immediately?
Help me!
Otherwise the inevitable "writing to memory in the browser" hype will amount to flyshit.
WHOA, I know Kung-Fu!
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
The distance from this to what you think about when you say "memory" is as far as your use of "morals" in your argument irrelevant.
We already know we can implant false memories into humans and now a method for creating false bad memories in flies by command? Things are looking good. I just want a way to model this as a system instead of just being able to target groups of cells. Full neural systems would be awesome!
Eat sleep die
Who died and made you the guy (or gal) who decides what is and is not moral for the entire human race?
Quit bitching about people investigating these things, and instead bitch about the people who use their ideas for evil if and when that happens.
Nearly everything can be misused by someone, somewhere. If people like you had their way, we'd still be in the dark ages, god forbid anyone learn anything that might one-day come back to bite us.
Hmm... let's see here..
Bad odor.... Check.
Laser beam directed INTO the brain.... uh... Check.
"Bad memories" induced.... err... Check.
And in other news... sugar tastes good.
It would be like making someone smell something and then NOT hitting them in the head with the pipe, but later, they think they remember being hit with the pipe even though they really weren't.
...is a laser?
How about treating PTSD?
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Is there any morally correct application for 'writing' false memories into a brain?
Identifying the areas responsible for trauma and bad memories can be useful for treatment of patients who have experienced things like car crashes. It can help by reducing the effects associated with these memories.
The thing about research is that lots of times the applications are not immediately obvious. Academia does research all the time on subjects that people don't have uses for yet. You're right in pointing out the possible negative side effects of this knowledge though. It's something that is very often unavoidable in research. A good example of this would be nuclear fission and it's range of uses.
Is there anyone in you family that has alzheimers?
Is there anyone in your family that suffers moderate to severe memory loss as a result of accident, disease, or trauma?
Does your child have physical and mental problems that impair learning?
Fuck the flies, and fuck you for suggesting that research like this is 'immoral'. What's immoral is your haughty 'I'm holier than thou' attitude that just because you can't immediately grasp all the implications of an experiment, it shouldn't be done, the benefit be damned.
Two basic lines of response:
A) Sure. Loads of morally correct applications. There are plenty of situations where the mere existence of a given memory is the point of the exercise. Many forms of instruction/training, for instance. If the memory of having read the manual is false; but the contents of the manual you falsely remember having read are true, you win. You'd need the subject's consent; but it isn't at all hard to imagine plenty of situations where people would be delighted to knowingly have various useful memories implanted.
B)An experimental result like this is quite far from application, well within the realm of basic research into memory functions. Understanding memory function, while it would have both positive and negative potential, is arguably a net positive. Right now, if I want to implant an unpleasant memory, or fuck with your sense of reality, or otherwise do nasty things to you, I don't really need a sophisticated understanding of memory. A water bottle and your T-shirt and no sense of decency will do well enough. If, however, I want to improve education, or understand why certain psychiatric disorders include serious memory problems, or treat brain injuries, or what have you, knowledge of the neurology of memory systems is necessary.
There could certainly be, at least in principle, scientific/technological developments that are just plain bad news; but I don't think that this is one of them. Virtually all the potential downsides can be achieved(or at least closely approximated) by far lower tech means, while many of the potential upsides are otherwise out of reach.
If I could replace those years at school with a few minutes of some guy shining a laser directly into my brain, I'd do so in a heartbeat.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
i don't think you managed to fool anyone with that statement.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
It's a *fly*, for fuck's sake. Are you so intellectually sterile you can't believe in simple curiousity, and must suspect some nefarious ulterior motive in its place?
How about the ability to teach someone something almost instantly. For example, imagine bing able to give someone a university degrees worth of knowledge and then have them spend the time in school to see how they apply it. Or eventually being able to have yourself cloned and then when your near death be downloaded into your new body. No more pesky death to worry about.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
The aliens are all false memories, the probing isn't.
"Memories! You're talking about memories!"
Well, the fly DID come back thinking it was a secret agent on Mars...
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
the flies used 'atp-get'
They stole this idea from Joss Whedon.
Ahhhh....the beaches, the babes, all that free cake... I sure am gonna miss Vietnam.
Summer Glau really isn't that attractive... she reminds me of a sickly Christina Ricci.
Because that worked out so well in Clockwork Orange...
Because over-population isn't already a major issue. That's ok, though... we'll just keep the youth and immortality expensive, that way only really, really rich people can afford it, continuing to live on into eternity and amassing ever greater levels of wealth for themselves. Only, the clones can't reproduce... and.. and.. then it just gets more and more like a strange cross between Underworld and Vanilla Sky from there.
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
This is a completely incomprehensible analogy.
Could we have a car analogy please?
....its probably a terrorist fly, Lets torture it some more.
can I have one of these with USB?
[ $[ $RANDOM % 6 ] == 0 ] && rm -rf / || echo *Click*
How about treating PTSD?
Very good point. Also, addiction. Basically, you'd erase the 'memory' of the urge to consume the particular substance your addicted to.
There was a story in the news six months ago about some research that would make it possible to do this in humans. PTSD and addiction were two examples they explicitly mentioned.
Have you never dealt with people who enjoy negative consequences?
^..^
Finally, evidence for those who have held off purchasing their tin-foil hats.
It's like that car you owned last year which you didn't.
How about the ability to teach someone something almost instantly.
Ah. Like kung-fu.
or with writing bullshit on /.
When they shined a laser on the fly brains, the ATP was released, and the 'associative learning' cells were activated. The laser flash was paired with an odor, effectively giving the fly a memory of a bad experience with the odor that it never actually had, such that it then avoided the odor in later experiments.
People who don't know how brains learn, might believe the "that it never actually had" part.
But if you know anything about that, you will know that what they did, was the same thing as what we call "learning": Associating something with something else.
In this case they just provided the "bad feeling" part of the association, while the odor was in place. Causing the fly to learn that the odor causes that bad feeling.
The same thing as if someone would always kick you in the balls when you see a pretty lady. (Just that the kicker would be invisible.)
And actually, a large laser on your brain *is* something pretty bad, that is unknown to a fly.
So this is nothing very special at all! They just found another way to "kick the fly in the balls". ^^
With an indirect way, using ATP and laser, but still just that.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
That would be wonderful. I'd be willing to give up a lot to not have that side effect of the Iraq war.
"Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
I actually don't see much of an ethical problem with this experiment as the technique only works on genetically-modified flies and requires brain surgery -stealthily rewriting someone's memories is not likely to work. The human brain contains ATP so they can't even use the same receptors and introducing a new chemical that doesn't yet have receptors and doesn't interact with the bran in other ways might prove difficult.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
will this work on my girlfriend, LOL yes honey I did remember your birthday, dont you remember I got you that ring...you must have lost it
Am I the only one that read this comment and imagined a dude completely stoned, laughing hysterically making tiny "Help me! Help me!" voices while motioning his hands in a ridiculous manner.
First, let's discuss what is going on, then we can discuss what may come of it.
This is not the ability to implant true-to-life false memories as implied. It is the ability to associate stimuli with reactions in flies, without having the actual stimulus present.
Potential actual applications for this in humans are mostly positive. Sure, you could make someone feel really bad about the color blue, reading the bible, watching NBC, or swimming in public, but even then, as with all phobias, rational examination wins out. People, over time, generally reject ideas that are in opposition to their own experiences.
Where it could help is when someone does have a true phobia, something irrational, something intangible that is hurting them. Having a positive association implanted to help level off the negatives could be quite beneficial. It wouldn't solve anything, but it would give a leg up to recovery. Think of it as an immune booster for the psyche.
Mind you, it was a book, not a scientific study.
It is "memory" after all, ad Rambus thinks everyone should pay them.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
Just listened to the NPR interview with one of the researchers - turns out this is just a method demonstration. The method itself lets them activate *any* class of neurons (with sufficiently distinct markers). They went so far as to turn on (oh Lord, forgive me for my puns) male courtship behaviors in male flies - and, strangely enough, in female flies too. The memory-inducing one is just the flashiest, and the one that will probably lead to the most new fundamental knowledge about brain function.
So, the flies were "gifted".
Exactly.
Should be easy then to find the 6 brain cells responsible in the previous chief executive.
Nope, you are not the only one mate...although I havent thought about the voices
Hmmm... that's the first time I've been marked troll and I wasn't trolling for anything. odd... I thought that an example of how a negative memory association might be helpful would be more welcome than most of the jokes that had been posted. Oh well.
Come play Moral Decay!
Ahem... don't you mean CARjacking?
--I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
-- See?
...write an unpleasant experience with an odor? Okay, I know it's just a stupid fly, but why not write a nice, pleasant experience with an odor that usually doesn't attract flies? They only live for a few hours, why fill their heads with bad things that didn't really happen?
--I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
-- See?
The advantages of immortality outweigh the disadvantages no matter how you look at it. If you disagree you can (sorry if this sounds dramatic) go kill yourself.
30 years later, in the White House...
"Of course we should go to Iraq. Sun, sand, free cake, and of course the women - what could possibly go wrong?"
More like making someone smell something while giving them electroshock therapy. The unique thing is that they circumvented the physical senses of discomfort and went straight to the negative stimulus flag in the brain. In that respect I think the title of the article is misleading; they didn't write a memory directly. They flipped the negative stimulus switch directly. Now if they could get the same results without having actually exposed the fly to the odor, that might be directly writing a memory.
...Burma Shave!
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.