The US's Reverse Brain Drain

Sounds good to me by Jeff321 · 2009-10-17 17:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

More jobs for the rest of us.

Re:Sounds good to me by Lemmy+Caution · 2009-10-17 17:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

More jobs for the rest of us.
Most of the people I have met who have expressed that sentiment lacked the qualifications to fill a job vacancy left by someone with a PhD in a science or engineering field.
Re:Sounds good to me by coaxial · 2009-10-17 17:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

More jobs for the rest of us.
Yeah, because attracting the best and the brightest from around the world, and having them build the future from here has been such losing proposition from the very beginning of this country.
This is disturbing phenomena. It's not just the the economy marking what would previously be immigrants return home. It's that it is incredibly fucking difficult to get a job if you're not an American. The visa process is notoriously burdensome, and then ties the immigrant to a specific company, essentially indenturing them. Then that doesn't even start the green card and citizenship processes. Canada is super easy. So easy to the point that when you talk to immigrants about immigration, they'll tell you that their friends told them "Why are you going to America? Just go to Canada, it's so much easier, and it's the same!"
Why should we be aid our competition in the international economy, by training and giving all our best ideas to foreign countries, when we used to "steal" their best and have them work for us? The fact that we're no longer a magnet, illustrates just how screwed we are.
Re:Sounds good to me by Bruha · 2009-10-17 18:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's also in some cases after we paid for their educations through government grants, many of which place no requirements on them remaining in the US.
Case in point, my ex attends college here free, working on her PHD. In fact she said that there's so much free money he plans on getting a second masters as well.
It'd be nice when the US Government would invest in it's own citizens.
Re:Sounds good to me by Devout_IPUite · 2009-10-17 18:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

I say cut our military spending until it's twice what China's is. That will save us around half a trillion per year.
Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 19:38 · Score: 2, Informative

I think a lot of the problems with that is the fact that if you can afford the college to get the job, you typically don't need the job. I had a friend who was going to college for computer programming. He currently is having to take a break from college not cause he needed the break, but because he is having to work 2 jobs to try and pay off some of his college debt before he can go back and continue. He owes over $27,000 in college bills. And that isn't even for a big time college. And even after that, he will have to move a out of town and probably out of state to get work if he can afford to get back into college to begin with.
I am trying to go back to college myself for an X-Ray tech job, I originally was going for computer programming too but the lack of local jobs kinda put me off. I am still having trouble going when you are paying over $1,000 a semester for a community college (Not even a high end college) and most of the jobs out here don't want to pay more than $880 a month after taxes. I live in North Carolina. How can you go to college and still live off that? You can't go to school cause you can't pay for college and if you get a good enough job to pay for college you don't even need the job. Kind of a bad cycle.
Re:Sounds good to me by dokebi · 2009-10-17 19:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

Oh come on, there is no reason to turn this into some diatribe about the government handing out money to foreigners. Why is it that your ex is working on a PhD and you are not? Why do you think half of US PhD's are awarded to foreign born? Is it because the evil government favors foreigners? Or is that Americans just don't give a shit about science and engineering any more?

Go to any science graduate course in any of the top 10 universities, and more than half are foreign born. The US high tech and biotech industries are full of foreigners. We basically built our technological superiority by attracting bright foreigners away from their home countries. Remember Google? This process is called the "brain drain", and it is a Good Thing(Tm) to hand out money to smart foreigners to come to the states. It strengthens our economy

In my observation, scientists and engineers are much better regarded in other countries than in the US. Why is that? Don't people know that science is the foundation of all of our economic growth?

Instead of blaming the government, we should blame the policy makers, the fiscal conservatives who cut subsidies so that higher education becomes a luxury for the rich, the religious zealots wants to stop teaching science to children, the ignorant that wants to stop funding "volcano research" and fund home schooling, etc, etc. IMHO, subsidized higher education is the best investment we can make for ourselves, and anyone who's against it is basically arguing to shoot ourselves in the foot. That means you.

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Re:Sounds good to me by AHuxley · 2009-10-17 20:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

During the cold war Moscow and Washington sucked up the 3rd world, hoping to shape future leaders grooming them for top positions in their respective private and public sectors.
They would go home and buy IBM, Boeing ect.
Was also great for the CIA, KGB ect.
So the cash for "awarded to foreign born" was policy and continues.
US police depts and the US mil do the same, teaching others from around the world on your tax $.
Your just another cubicle filler to the US gov, a foreigner might have his or her hands on $1-x000 000 000 one day and remember the US in a better way during the bidding.

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Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re:Sounds good to me by interkin3tic · 2009-10-17 20:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

Case in point, my ex attends college here free, working on her PHD. In fact she said that there's so much free money he plans on getting a second masters as well.
It'd be nice when the US Government would invest in it's own citizens.
What field is your ex in? Biomedical research? Chemistry? As long as it isn't something like "theater" or "english," I'd argue the US government IS investing in it's own citizens, just not -specifically- it's own citizens. Grad students are pretty cheap compared to other researchers, if he's helping to advance the sciences, like say working on cancer, then that IS going to benefit US citizens. It's also potentially going to be cheaper than paying someone with their doctorate already in hand.
Re:Sounds good to me by kklein · 2009-10-17 20:57 · Score: 4, Informative

Marry me!
Of course, I'm a college prof, so I may be biased.
That being said, I'm a college prof outside of the US, because here they'll actually pay me a decent middle-class salary for my time and degrees, whereas in the US, I literally had a hard time paying rent. As in, my food and utilities budget was what was left after I paid rent; I had no discretionary income, and didn't even have a mobile phone.
HOWEVER, I'm not in the hard sciences, but I still agree that science and technology are the basis of all developed countries' growth. There's no room for linguists and psychometricians in anyone's budgets without physicists and chemists and biologists and engineers making things that make money.
Re:Sounds good to me by shutdown+-p+now · 2009-10-17 21:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

You keep referring to those "foreigners". What does it matter if they become U.S. citizens in the end? They still end up working for your country, and your economy.
When they do not - yeah, that's the problem, which is precisely what TFA is about. Broadly speaking, it means that either U.S. quality of life goes down, or that of the Other Countries goes up.
Re:Sounds good to me by lemmywrap · 2009-10-17 21:43 · Score: 4, Funny

You could always outsource weapons production to China, problem solved.
Re:Sounds good to me by iwulinux · 2009-10-17 23:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

>>subsidized higher education is the best investment we can make for ourselves
Just be careful to avoid the situation I see in the Netherlands, where those who are considered "gifted" enough to get into a University program (as opposed to a technical or vocational school) are basically SOL if they don't get a Master's degree. I call it educational inflation: when all of your peers have an MA, you need an MA just to get your foot in the door for a normal job, and an MPhil/PhD to get a really good job.

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-- "Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best of all."
Re:Sounds good to me by PopeRatzo · 2009-10-17 23:32 · Score: 2, Informative

What if we used the money that we now spend on educating foreign students to educate our own? We have been providing advanced degrees (via tuition waivers) for people who come from countries that give them free educations, while our own students are expected to amass huge student loan debts.
But first, maybe we should make sure we have jobs for them.
Chicken and egg, I guess.

--
You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Sounds good to me by jonbryce · 2009-10-17 23:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Do doesn't. It means less jobs for the rest of you. They are taking their jobs with them when they leave, very probably serving the same customers as they did before, at lower cost to them, and the money they were previously spending in California, supporting other Californian jobs is now being spent in India and China supporting other Indian and Chinese jobs.
Re:Sounds good to me by mopower70 · 2009-10-18 00:15 · Score: 2, Informative

Why do you think half of US PhD's are awarded to foreign born? Is it because the evil government favors foreigners? Or is that Americans just don't give a shit about science and engineering any more?
Spoken like someone who hasn't been in school for a while. If you've actually attended a graduate institution in the last twenty years you'd realize you have no idea what your saying. Americans do give a shit about science and engineering. The problem is there just aren't enough of us to make us statistically competitive.
When I was in graduate school, I had to fight for every dollar of financial aid and every adviser slot. Yes, I had a few fellow Americans I was competing with, but the vast majority of my competition were Chinese and Indians who were being funded by their government as well as ours. You take a population of 1.3 billion, another of 1.2 billion and there's going to be 8 equivalently intelligent foreign-born individuals for every American. And since this is America, we give equal weight to everyone's application regardless from whence they hail.
The problem is not one of motivation, it's one of numbers. Given an equivalent percentage of Americans, Chinese, and Indians competing for the same slots in Universities, Americans will be outnumbered 8:1. Until our grant money starts going to the people who pay for them, this situation is never going to get better.
Re:Sounds good to me by DaveV1.0 · 2009-10-18 01:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Attracting them at expense of other Americans, improving their lives, having them become citizens, then run back where they came from at the first sign of economic trouble is a losing proposition.
Apparently, you have no clue how actually the actual immigration process works, because you are describing the process where an H1-B visa, which is a non-immigration visa, holder comes to the US and then works to be come an immigrant.
H1-B visas are supposed to fill holes in the skill sets of the American workforce but are being used by American companies to higher foreign workers are lower pay and longer hours.

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There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Re:Sounds good to me by SerpentMage · 2009-10-18 01:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

American's as a general populace don't give a shit about about science and engineering. Otherwise why on earth are people more interested in reality TV, and think that the bible is *real science*.
The real problem is that only geeks, nerds and ninny's according to North American English speakers go into engineering. I know me and my wife are North American educated engineers. Yet here we are in Europe and have been here since two years after graduation. My wife is French Canadian and her family has been in Canada for about 425 years. She is the first one in her family in about 400 years to leave Canada.
The problem in the North American english speaking society is that there is a deep distrust of scientists and people who are "smarter". For crying out loud only in North American English society is there a debate on whether or not evolution exists. People elect those people who are good "drinking buddies". They don't elect those that might actually make their lives better. It is freaken sad.
So to say that you have unfair competition due to those foreigners, how about you get more of your high school buddies to study engineering and science.
What you forget in your statistics is that other countries might actually have a good university. You are making the arrogant assumption that ONLY in America can you get a good education. Take a look at the latest university rankings why don't you ok? Other countries have good Universities as well.

--

"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Re:Sounds good to me by jvin248 · 2009-10-18 01:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Alas, no 'regular' people in the US are encouraged into the sciences.

It's more cool to be a half-drunk celebrity reality show subject than a top Engineer. Rock Stars and Sports Athletes are where the media and society encouragement pushes kids (gotta get that football 'scholarship').

Movie cliches with technical people in taped-up glasses do not the professional merits.
Tons of shows about lawyers and physicians but where are the cool Engineer dramas? CSI/NCIS/etc may be helping, but too profitable for the studios to make the next follow-around-this-crazy-person reality show.

Most other countries place their Engineers and Scientists at the same level of respect held by doctors and lawyers.
Until that happens here only a few talented kids will find their calling and invent stuff.
Re:Sounds good to me by magamiako1 · 2009-10-18 01:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

drsquare:

You forget that people get an education to become better at something, so your point about a "better Chinese student" versus an American student is somewhat irrelevant. You can't really define what constitutes a "better" student, because the results of which are not seen possibly for decades beyond that education.

Is it a student that studies all of the time? What about students who don't need to study all of the time yet still pass their classes? Is it a student that attends every class? What if you don't need to attend every class?

It can be argued that even if the American student isn't quite as educated or capable in a mental sense as the Chinese student, that the money should still go to the American student. After all, chances are he's going to stay within this country while the Chinese student may or may not have an allegiance to be here. After all, it's a lot easier to come to the US than it is to go to any other country from the US. This includes language.

So you spend our tax dollars to educate some smart Chinese student who has a strong possibility of returning to his home country with his education, versus a student that is more than likely going to stay in the US, providing us with the knowledge he learned.

There are a lot of problems in the US Education system, but this sort of comparison isn't related to any of them.
Re:Sounds good to me by bzipitidoo · 2009-10-18 02:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

In my observation, scientists and engineers are much better regarded in other countries than in the US.
That's my impression also. A situation I recall is the choice of person to head a laboratory in the US. The person these American leaders picked didn't have a PhD. Why? There were several PhDs available. Why did the business leaders pick someone without a PhD? I managed to speak with their candidate, and when I said that I thought a requirement for the position was a PhD, he instantly responded with "or equivalent experience", and then went off on a 10 minute speech about how 10 years experience in anything vaguely related was not only as good as but in fact better than a degree, and that advanced degrees don't really matter and don't really mean anything. Perhaps the head of a lab doesn't absolutely have to have a PhD, but if some are available and willing and competent, why not use one of them?
I suspect that they didn't want to do real science. They were afraid to do real science as it could fail and then everyone would lose their jobs. And they didn't really get what science is. They knew what results they wanted, and they preferred a puppet who would "make it happen", wink-wink nudge-nudge, know what I mean? And they were quite willing to delude themselves that they were doing science. Some thought it's all bull anyway, so why not? Others seemed to think they could get the outcomes they wanted through sheer willpower. The puppet would also make a handy fall guy and sacrifice when problems surfaced. Fortunately, the whole deal fell through.
Too many of our leaders are the sorts who cheated their way through school, and cheated themselves out of a real understanding of science. They dry-labbed their way to an A in chemistry class and didn't get caught, and they halfway believe that every "successful" student did it the same way. Or they worked the system and wangled some soft course in lieu of a science requirement. Or their school was funded by people who believe that the only thing that really matters is making money, and think that market forces will keep science honest, because otherwise it wouldn't make any money, right?

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Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Re:Sounds good to me by SerpentMage · 2009-10-18 04:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

The world is borderless....
Want to know about "borders"
Read about it on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport
The idea of borders, haves and haves nots is a relatively recent concept. Thus to say you need to enforce and keep people out is crap!
People used to move from one place to another ALL the time. So long as you paid your local taxes and gave all of your servitude everything was cheeky.
If we went back to borderless countries we would all be in much better shape because people would travel however they would please.
So do your history and then understand what I am getting at...

--

"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Re:Sounds good to me by happyemoticon · 2009-10-18 04:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

So a lot of Americans don't care about education. That should surprise no one - heck, like half of China and India are still working in agriculture.
The qualitative difference, though, is that China and India have public educational programs that separate the wheat from the chaff early on. In America, we waste huge amounts of resources educating anti-social malcontents who invariably grow up to be criminals, and, more importantly, don't want to be educated. 10% of the class makes 40% act out, and prevents the rest from learning or enjoying school. Put that 10% in a military-style education program and they might just come out productive citizens, because we have a teaching population of lily-white middle-class women, and all these thugs respect is a big, tough, loud muscular man who wants to humiliate them and make them do pushups.
It's not about the character of the American people. Sure, I'd love it if the dominant urban youth culture wasn't racist, homophobic, sexist and anti-intellectual, but we can't control that. What we can do is separate the disruptive element from the bulk, either by giving them a program that destroys their diseased individuality or by kicking them to the curb.
Re:Sounds good to me by stbill79 · 2009-10-18 05:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

I say cut our military spending...
icall I used to say this exact same thing. Until I realized I'd been wasting the last few years of my life in the private sector, as a decent and ambitious developer, learning nothing and stagnating. I don't know if it was just the positions I was in, or that all the interesting work has been offshored to Bangalore, but putting up web sites so insurance companies can automate billing was not helping me learn much new technology.
All that changed when I got a job in the military industrial complex. Now I'm doing interesting stuff (mostly geospatial) and actually earning the same as my less intelligent peers who chose to go into insurance sales and law. I'd have to say that the military spending, a huge proportion of which goes to contractors, is basically the only industry allowing US citizens to stay in the forefront, as our universities and other private industries have essentially decided to offshore/import foreigners for all their science and technology needs.
Re:Sounds good to me by ahabswhale · 2009-10-18 07:07 · Score: 2, Funny

Maybe you didn't get the memo, but Jesus is returning in 2012 so all your fancy-pants science tricks won't matter soon anyway.

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Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Re:Sounds good to me by operagost · 2009-10-19 03:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

We spend about as much per year on Medicare. Defense is part of the powers delegated to Congress in the Constitution. Health care is not. At least with defense, the government is spending money on what it's supposed to spend it on.

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Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.

Surprised? by Tubal-Cain · 2009-10-17 17:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

Why is this a surprise? Isn't that exactly why they came here in the first place?

Re:Surprised? by coaxial · 2009-10-17 17:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

Why is this a surprise? Isn't that exactly why they came here in the first place?
In the past most of them stayed. "America is the land of opportunity," you know? Only now it increasingly isn't. The fact that Chinese are returning home for "a better quality of life" really sticks a fork in that claptrap about how financial freedom brings political freedom doesn't it?
Re:Surprised? by phantomfive · 2009-10-17 17:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

really sticks a fork in that claptrap about how financial freedom brings political freedom doesn't it?
Not really. The number of Chinese living in poverty is still greater than the entire population of the United States. Even the few Chinese who do manage to graduate from college still have trouble finding a good job. Getting a degree at a US university merely puts them at the front of that line. And of course, there are a few in China who are filthy rich. That is everywhere.

And of course, 'better quality of life' is relative.....most parts of China, even in the cities, don't have drinkable water coming into the house. That would be unacceptable to many westerners, but if you don't mind, then it's not a problem.

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Qxe4
Re:Surprised? by ls671 · 2009-10-17 17:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yes I know...
Unfortunately, that perception is fading, especially in the minds of people outside US. I do not think the former US president helped much in fixing this problem.
A considerable portion of US economy is now owned by foreign countries and some countries should start to deal oil, gold and other goods in euros soon when American dollars were previously the reference used world wide.
As wikipedia states ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream ) the American Dream seems to be a fading concept:
"In recent years, the concept of the American Dream as a national ideal has been studied by various organizations. The conclusions of these studies indicate that during the 1990s to the 2000s, a period of remarkable wealth for the U.S., an increasing number of people confess to having lost faith in the American Dream."

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Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
Re:Surprised? by coaxial · 2009-10-17 18:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

sorry, i can figure out what connection you mean by that, but i don't see how that discredits the theory that if you don't have economic freedom, you don't have freedom at all.
Economic freedom not only isn't predicated on, it doesn't necessitate, political freedom.
Let me indulge in a bit of history. Back in the 80s and early 90s when Wall Street was lobbying to remove embargos on investing in China, the argument was that the US was actually opening up a giant market, not promoting trade with the regime that just slaughtered a pro-democracy movement, and by opening trade, the Chinese would see how the West lived, and then would force the dictatorial regime to fall. Then it was about how by deindustrializing and moving all production to China, they would get money in their pockets, start to make economic decisions on their own, and soon would stop wanting to only "vote with their wallets" but want to "vote with their ballots" instead. But that's not what happened, now is it? The standard of living along the coast has rapidly improved, but far from weakening the regime, it's actually strengthened it, because the average person (rightly) says, "We've got a good thing going. My life is better. My child's life will be better than mine. Why would I want to take a chance and mess that up?"
Ironically though, China is the perfect lab for what would happen in an unregulated market that libertarians argue for when they want to eliminate the EPA, FDA, and every other regulatory industry.
Re:Surprised? by micheas · 2009-10-17 18:27 · Score: 2, Informative

...most parts of China, even in the cities, don't have drinkable water coming into the house.
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Drinking-water-in-America-not-all-that-safe-3A-says-report-10757-1/
While no more than a third of US households have unsafe drinking water.

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Work bio at MMWD
Re:Surprised? by phantomfive · 2009-10-17 18:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

OK, you linked to a report by the Sierra Club, a group that has a definite agenda. You need to be careful when doing that.

In this case, they are trying to be sensationalistic by redefining the word 'unsafe' to mean 'potentially unsafe.' They aren't saying that the water is unsafe to drink, they are saying that the water could become unsafe to drink, if there were an oil spill or a chemical spill in the source of the drinking water. Whether true or not, this is not at all the same as the drinking water in China, where you should boil the water before drinking it to avoid sickness.

Try to make sure a study is reliable before citing it.

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Qxe4
Re:Surprised? by Idiomatick · 2009-10-17 18:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

You are confusing quality of life with inequality. In china and india there is truly a land of inequality. With their fancy degrees education and experience when you stick them in a place that has people starving in the streets they are veritable gods.

Economy is such that people are able to survive but big shot CEOs while in the US might be able to afford a nicer car and a bigger house. In China they can afford a nicer garage filled with cars and a mansion with butlers and maids. While this sounds like quite the opportunity... When you look at the average it truly isn't.

I'd think again before I got jealous of a country where most of the populace doesn't have running water. Even if you knew you would be among the privileged would you really wish that on your people?
Re:Surprised? by PietjeJantje · 2009-10-17 19:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

The number of Americans living in poverty is also still greater than the entire population of Scandinavia. If I continue to mirror your point it gets funny.
Re:Surprised? by Blue+Shifted · 2009-10-17 19:25 · Score: 3, Informative

you can have economic freedom and STILL not be free, i am not arguing you that.
but if you don't have economic freedom, you are not free, at all.
do you have trouble with the not all rectangles are squares thing too?
Re:Surprised? by UncleWilly · 2009-10-17 19:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

But that's not what happened..
Your position is to short sighted. It's not done yet, give it another generation or two. Like the USAs strategy to isolate (and not attack) the USSR, post WWII. This policy took approximately 45 years (1945-90) to work through. I'm not saying the USA-China policy will work, but 20 years is too short to say "it failed".
Re:Surprised? by Hognoxious · 2009-10-17 20:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

Making the standard of living radically better is a good thing.
It is for the small minority for whom that's true.
The vast majority in the interior are still dirt poor and local government is disgustingly corrupt which helps to keep them that way.
CNN and the like don't show all that though. The comfy hotels are where the skyscrapers are, so let's make another article about handbag shops.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Surprised? by phantomfive · 2009-10-17 20:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't know what your point is; do you really want to boil your water before you drink it? I've done it, and I'll tell you, it sucks. Not only that, you're always wondering if the drops of water you get in your mouth when you take a shower are actually going to cause problems.

In the US, I can just drink the water from the tap, without worrying about whether I'm going to get giardia or something. There's a huge difference. Are you really so focused on splitting hairs that you can't see that?

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Qxe4
Re:Surprised? by phantomfive · 2009-10-17 20:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

Poverty in America is entirely different than poverty in China. I mean in China there are people literally living in caves.

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Qxe4
Re:Surprised? by arjennienhuis · 2009-10-17 21:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

Poverty in America is entirely different than poverty in China. I mean in China there are people literally living in caves.
Poverty in Scandinavia is entirely different than poverty in America. I mean in America there are people literally living in tents.
Re:Surprised? by Paul+Jakma · 2009-10-17 21:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

Water dispenser machines that automatically boil the water for you are very common in Chinese homes and elsewhere. Bottled water is also readily to hand across China.
Does it suck compared to having potable water flow out the tap, sure, and no doubt the chinese will in time invest an fix it. The situation however is much *better* than my memories of holidaying in various parts of the European mediterranean as recently as the 80s.

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I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
Re:Surprised? by edumacator · 2009-10-17 23:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

who the heck drinks from their tap?
Me and my family. Of course we live in a suburb of Atlanta. There are still a lot of areas where the water out of the tap is just fine. I'd also suggest there is a huge difference between, I don't drink tap water because it tastes funny, and I don't drink tap water because it gives me parasites.
I do believe you though about the water in LA. If I come to visit, I'll bring bottled water.

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An important change for education.
Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 00:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

You don't think we have homeless in Sweden? Some of them don't even have tents.
Re:Surprised? by Bysshe · 2009-10-18 00:24 · Score: 3, Funny

And the number of people living in poverty in Scandinavia is greater than the entire population of Lichtenstein!

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Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
Re:Surprised? by Dr.+Spork · 2009-10-18 00:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

If the average Chinese person really does say "I've got a good life going" (which I would dispute, but anyway), then I don't think we need to fret so much about how their government needs to be changed.
Re:Surprised? by Hognoxious · 2009-10-18 00:52 · Score: 2, Funny

I live in a basement, is that close enough?

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Surprised? by sukotto · 2009-10-18 01:48 · Score: 5, Informative
My wife and I came to this country because it is the land of opportunity. The place where the very best in the world go to build the best business. We're thinking of leaving because that don't seem to actually be true... at least, not anymore. Instead you:
- treat us like criminals whenever we want to cross the border or enter a government building
- limit H1 terms to force us to leave
- have a surprisingly poor primary and elementary education system (on a side note... your President wants kids to stay in school longer?!? You already have them in school for more hours than other countries whose kids score better on tests... it's not the quantity you need to improve, it's the quality)
- allow your religious nutjobs a frightening amount of political power. This is less evident under Obama than it was under Bush II but still scares the hell out of me
- disappear people to Guantanamo under Bush II and Bagram under Obama
I wanted to make this permanent, get my green card and eventually citizenship. But it seeme to me that you guys are trending hard towards compleat paranoid xenophobia. We have kids now and I'm thinking more and more about what living here is going to do to them. I don't want my kids to grow up in what, to me, seems like a poisonous atmosphere of stranger hate, militant and religious zealotry, misplaced sense of entitlement, and a "we're the greatest because we're the greatest" view of the world.
At this point, it's just a matter of time for us. We're making pretty good money and want to pull together a large enough nest egg to allow us to move home, buy a house, and start a business. After that, we'll likely only ever return here to take the kids to Disneyworld
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Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
Re:Surprised? by ScrewMaster · 2009-10-18 02:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Water dispenser machines that automatically boil the water for you are very common in Chinese homes and elsewhere. Bottled water is also readily to hand across China.
Sure, but a. boiling temperatures don't kill ALL pathogens ... Clostridium Botulinum, for one, is capable of surviving that and b. boiling will have little effect if your water is contaminated with some poisonous industrial compound leached into the local water table by badly-operated factories. That's the problem China is facing now. Also, bottled water is only as safe as the source it was bottled from. Unless China gets a handle on its manufacturing-related environmental problems, bottled water is no guarantee of safety.

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The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Surprised? by misexistentialist · 2009-10-18 03:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

You don't say where "home" is, but xenophobia, nationalism, and religious zealotry in the US are quite amateur when compared to other countries. You're used to it at home, but in America is seems strange. Sorry if you thought living here would be like an animated children's adventure.
Re:Surprised? by cenc · 2009-10-18 03:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

You need to get to know China a bit better, and what they are doing.
They lifted a population equal to or greater than the U.S. population out of extrema poverty in less than a generation. Most of my friends in China have stories about relatives and friends that starved to death. I am not talking 50 years ago either. I mean like 10 years ago.
It would be impossible with a population that large to simply flip on the democracy light. Millions really would die in civil war and unrest. I am not advocating repression, but it is simply a practical fact of having population of more than billion people. The "communist" in communist party is mostly just symbolic now. Yes, it is corrupt. In fact, I believe China on some level is only functioning because the corruption keeps things moving. There is very little in common with western ideas of "communism" and "socialism". Perhaps an oligarchy is s better description of what they have. It in many ways today is much more free than many of the "allies" of the United States (e.g. all of the middle east), not to mention how well Russia is doing on that front.
An Nobel winning economist (can not remember his name right off hand), in an interview once pointed out that the big difference between the transition of Russia to open markets and democracy and the transition of China, is that the Chinese even under extreme repressive communism always had a tradition of commerce and trade. Local markets functioned, trade of goods and services went on. Russia never had that. Russia had even under the royal families a tradition of tightly controlled centralized resources.

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Living in Chile
Re:Surprised? by timeOday · 2009-10-18 03:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

You don't say where "home" is, but xenophobia, nationalism, and religious zealotry in the US are quite amateur when compared to other countries.

The problem is we are backsliding in all those areas, not getting better. Assume he came here 10 years ago - his complaints probably aren't compared to some imaginary version of the US, but rather to how it was when he got here. The more time passes, the more it becomes clear that we really shot ourselves in the foot in a major way with our unhinged militaristic response to 911.
Re:Surprised? by Thakandar2 · 2009-10-18 05:45 · Score: 3, Informative

All Western European schools keep people in school longer than America does. Britain has 190 days. Canada has 190. Japan keeps kids in schools much longer than Americans do. South Koreans, Australians, and other outliers do as well. We are actually behind by only going to school 180 days or so. South Africa is 200. Philippines is 200. Hong Kong goes September to July. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_term
Re:Surprised? by pommiekiwifruit · 2009-10-18 09:25 · Score: 2, Informative

And in New Zealand you can just drink the water straight from many streams (except in volcanos), some rivers (tongariro) and the biggest lake (taupo). Which is handy when you are hiking :-)
Hmm, the lake quality has declined in the last 20 years, so there are a whole heap of regulations for farmers in the catchment area (for example no more than 3.3 llamas or 10 goats per hectare), and a lot of paperwork with resource consents and Nitrogen Discharge Allowances. I wonder if China or Spain has such regulations.
Re:Surprised? by YeeHaW_Jelte · 2009-10-19 00:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe you shouldn't trust CNN then for your world views?
Apart from that, you can't expect one billion people to be elevated to wealth in a few decades.
Please reference India, which is and has been a democracy for multiple decades, and which still has exactly the same kind of wealth spread as China.

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"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."

H1Bs? by PrimaryConsult · 2009-10-17 17:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Would this be caused by expiring H1-B Visas as discussed previously?

What a surprise! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 17:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Here's a shocker: we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students, and then watch as they leave the US and put our industries out of business. Meanwhile, we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students. Who would have thought?

Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries...

Re:What a surprise! by Kizeh · 2009-10-17 18:12 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, foreign students pay around triple, depending on school, the tuition of citizens and residents. In many institutions they in fact bring in the funds to subsidize the Americans that share their classes. Less foreign students means higher tuition for Americans.
Re:What a surprise! by Dahamma · 2009-10-17 18:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's kind of misleading...
They pay non-resident tuition at public state schools, just like any US student who attends a college in a state they don't reside in. And for most private schools, there is no difference at all.
Sure, they don't get the federal grants, but those are so piss poor these days that probably barely matters (plus they may very well get grants or loans from their home country to attend a US school).
Re:What a surprise! by cetialphav · 2009-10-17 18:42 · Score: 5, Informative

we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students
I would like to see some evidence to back that claim because that does not match my experience. In my CS department, US citizens are almost automatically accepted into the graduate program, while foreign students have to compete with each other to get in. (My professor is on the admissions committee.) The reason is that there are so few US citizens that apply that they have to take as many as they can get. The only people being turned away are foreigners who got beat out by more qualified foreigners.
The fact is that the US has half of the world's colleges and universities. It is the large number of foreign students that allows us to have so many universities and that gives domestic students a wide range of choices.
Re:What a surprise! by Idiomatick · 2009-10-17 18:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

Your tax dollars aren't. Look at how much more you pay if you are a foreign student in your school. And look up how much of your school is funded by your tax dollars. There is a good chance that foreign students are actually FUNDING your education.
Re:What a surprise! by Sir_Sri · 2009-10-17 19:14 · Score: 3, Informative

completely untrue. At least in canada. Roughly every 6 or 7 foreign students subsidizes a professor (well maybe 10 or 11 depends on how you count the flow of money and if you include grad students etc). They pay about 20k in tuition and the average prof gets probably a bit less than 100k. Lots of courses are taught by people making a lot less than that too. On top of that they bring into this country about 15k/year in living expenses which is spent, unsurprisingly, on local things like rent, food etc. Though one should see the irony of a student from china spending extra money in canada on goods made in china with much lower point of sale costs there.
There is not a limit on the number of students we can teach - there is a limit on how fast we can grow, but not how big we can get. In fact quite the contrary - the more students we have the more we can teach, because the more graduate students we can fund, and thus the processes is a positive feedback system. Engineering, medicine and the like; programs which control enrollment do so artificially to keep the value of their degrees up, if demand gets too high (we cannot attract enough engineers/doctors) politicians either force rule changes or the price goes up and more of the smartest people from other countries stay here, and don't go home.
Don't kid yourself for a moment - we aren't 'passing over' domestic students for foreign ones. We get the best and brightest from those countries; you don't move 10 time zones across and ocean to a place where you don't know anyone and barely speak the language because you're mediocre. They make our 'average' students look bad sure, but we have lots of room for domestic students, for good or bad we can train far more domestic students than want to apply to our programs. And we still, including here on /. bemoan the falling quality of computer science graduates because we're dumbing down the programs. I'll let you in on a secret: we're not dumbing the program down for the guys from india china or the middle east.
Right now I'm in a PhD programme in comp sci. We could probably double our undergraduate enrollment (2nd 3rd and 4th year courses probably have 400 ish students combined now) with all domestic students right now, and not skip a beat.
Imagine I was at a business. Lets call it the computer science corporation of London ontario. (Fake). And we do 70% of our business with india the middle east and china. Our real dollar business with the local market (canada) has basically grown with inflation for 10 years, but we've more than doubled in size by exporting our product to those markets and we see continued expansion in those areas. Is that really bad, shareholders would be thrilled? Car companies have basically reached one car per person in north america, the market is pretty obviously saturated at that point, so to grow your business you go elsewhere. Education has the same problem. Frankly we have more PhD's than the private market really wants, and more people who would rather the ~25% pay cut but academic freedom and the ability to teach rather than work for the man (IBM, MS, Google). Think of foreign students as sales to a foreign country - and lets face it, we're running out of other things the chinese are willing to pay money for that we have.
You want to pick on someone pick on programmes that aren't the aforementioned "management, technology and science". Want to know why we're managing such poor enrollment? Because students have been given the woefully misguided impression that 80K later any degree will be just as good as spending 80k on one in management, technology or science, and that working hard and learning to do math is bad. Admittedly I'm in Canada, and we have oil, and oil makes you as a society stupid because any high profit margin product that can be mass produced reduces demand for education or efficiency gains through education. It's not that I object to psychology, or history or anything else, but if the market wants 100 grads and you
Re:What a surprise! by Lemmy+Caution · 2009-10-17 19:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Foreign students are considered a cash cow by schools, because their fees are much higher, and they are usually funded by sources from their home countries, not from the US. They are subsidizing the education of domestic-born students, not the other way around.
Re:What a surprise! by poliopteragriseoapte · 2009-10-17 19:26 · Score: 5, Informative

I am a faculty at a US university, advising several such foreign students and postdocs. Many of them choose to leave the US after their PhD or postdoc simply because there are often better opportunities elsewhere, especially for those interested in an academic career. Many countries are ramping up their investment in education and research, while the trend in the US is negative. In the 70's and 80's, US universities were the top. Now, researchers are often offered much better support, infrastructure, ability to grow a research group, and even salary, in other countries. So they leave. Three of the people who worked with me are now professors; none of them is in the US. What this says for the future pre-eminence of US science... wait, which pre-eminence?
Re:What a surprise! by martas · 2009-10-17 19:33 · Score: 4, Informative

Actually that's misleading too. I'm a foreign undergrad student (soon to be graduate, hopefully *fingers crossed*), and the sheer number of NSF-funded summer internships and other opportunities that are closed to me since I'm not a citizen is mind-boggling. Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining or anything - it's only fair for a gov't to take special care of its own citizens, and to expect anything else would be absurd - I'm just pointing out that american citizens still have it a lot better than int'l students.

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weinersmith
Re:What a surprise! by blue_teeth · 2009-10-17 20:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I am an Indian and never wanted to visit the US for the mighty dollar. Never visited the US. Here is another shocker. Most of the students came purely for economic reasons. My worry is, this reverse brain-drain is also likely to bring filth in India...aka MBA shit and Wall Street greed.
Re:What a surprise! by Paul+Jakma · 2009-10-17 22:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

You know that PhD and (to a lesser extent) masters students are basically the dogs-bodies of academia, right? I.e. they're usually the ones doing the heavy-lifting investigative work to support the research interests of their supervisor. If you seriously constrain the pool of available PhD students, then you're making it harder for your professors and Universities to get their research done.
The sheer ignorance on display in some parts of this discussion are amazing. Doubly amazing when you consider /.'s readership is biased towards being significantly more educated than the average American. If this represents mainstream thinking in the USA, then one must worry the USA is doomed to a dark period of shoot-in-the-foot policies driven by xenophobism.
(I say this as someone who believes the health of the USA's economy is vitally important to that of the globe's, and has a mostly-positive opinion of it. NB: the country I live in also is experiencing some measure of xenophobist-pandering policy setting).

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I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
Re:What a surprise! by moosesocks · 2009-10-18 01:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

As a physicist, this sort of thing has me really worried, as it's becoming increasingly clear that physics research in the US is now in the process of "winding down." None of the new big projects on the table are even being considered for the US, as we lack the willingness and capacity to help them.
Fermilab has a few years left, but even its experimental projects face an uncertain future. Their big accelerator, the Tevatron has a year or two left (thanks to the LHC's persistent issues), while their smaller accelerators will continue to provide beams to a small number of neutrino experiments until around 2015. After that, the lab's fate is uncertain.
The story is the same at many of the other big labs around the country. Meanwhile, we continue to funnel funding into CERN and other international collaborations that provide few opportunities for American scientists and students.

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-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Re:What a surprise! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 01:52 · Score: 2, Informative

I am an international student in the US. I have an MD from India, my home country, and I'm doing my PhD in the US in a medical field in a public university. While US citizens in the same situation get NIH fellowships of more than $60K per year, I worked as a teaching assistant for $9.50 per year the first year I was here. Now, I make $30/hr as a research assistant, which is half of what an American PhD student with a previous MD gets on an NIH fellowship. Foreign students have to work a lot harder to achieve the same or lesser benefits as US citizens, so don't think that life is easier for foreign students in the US compared to American students.
By the way, I am also paying the college tuition for my girlfriend. Her tuition is $5,000 per semester for some undergrad level courses that she's taking as a prerequisite to get into graduate school (because her undergrad degree is in a different field). She has to pay out-of-state for the entire duration, whereas the in-state tuition is $1,500 per semester.
Both undergrad and grad school is more expensive for international students, because we have to pay out-of-state for the entire duration (and we are not allowed to work off-campus on a student visa). So, they do subsidize the education for US citizens. The only exception is graduate students who get assistantships and tuition waivers, but it's the same for US citizen students too - in fact US citizens have more funding opportunities (NIH, NSF, etc) for graduate school than foreigners.

Good, leave, bye bye by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 17:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Until the US federal government stops regulating the US labor market with work visas we will not have a reason to fix our education system.

Also wages will not rise and unemployment will stay high. We need to protect our markets too. We are the only nation that fails to protect its domestic markets. And we are the only nation that imports highly skilled labor the way we do.

Before H-1B wages rose. Jobs used to be great in programming and IT. But since we started H-1b about 12 years ago things have slid and only gotten worse and worse.
The solution is to let the US labor market regulate itself the way its supposed to.

Re:Good, leave, bye bye by ClosedSource · 2009-10-17 19:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is something that makes no sense to me.
If a company is really serious about a project, they'll hire the most qualified people available. Those available people may or may not have the exact qualifications they are looking for.
If they can afford to sit on their hands and wait for everything they want in a candidate, either the project isn't that important to the company or they already have the number of people they really need to get it done.
I'm convinced that some companies deliberately post jobs that they have no intention to fill just so they can say they can't find qualified candidates in the US.
Re:Good, leave, bye bye by shermo · 2009-10-18 12:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

We need to protect our markets too. We are the only nation that fails to protect its domestic markets
Woah, get off your high horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_the_United_States

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Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results

Maybe because we treat them like criminals by HangingChad · 2009-10-17 17:39 · Score: 5, Interesting

the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the US plan to return home, or already have.

Between Homeland Security and treating H1-B's like slave labor, who can blame them? They can go home and enjoy a better lifestyle than they have here and not get treated like a potential terrorist.

Funny is how many of the teabirthers walking around thinking this is the best place in the world to live and everyone wants to come here.

Not anymore.

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That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage

Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals by wizardforce · 2009-10-17 18:21 · Score: 4, Informative

Funny how many people forget just how much the government has to do with the hostile treatment that immigrants face upon entering the US. Considering how much red tape and utter nonsense is baked into the system it isn't any surprise that a lot of educated people want the hell out of here.

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Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals by Lemmy+Caution · 2009-10-17 19:18 · Score: 2, Informative

Remember, the US was largely built up by people who thought that making a buck was more important than staying close to family and friends.
Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals by Totenglocke · 2009-10-17 19:43 · Score: 2, Funny

Remember, the US was largely built up by people who thought that making a buck was more important than staying close to family and friends.
Remember, the US was largely built up by people who thought that making a buck was more important than mooching off family and friends.
Just because you're a lazy bastard doesn't mean that people who are responsible and motivated are "evil".

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Re:Maybe because we treat them like criminals by DaveV1.0 · 2009-10-18 01:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

treating H1-B's like slave labor
Which is why we need to do away with H1-B visa. There is no need for H1-B visas in this economic climate.
Remember H1-B visas are supposed to fill positions for which there are no American suitable candidates, but with so many workers, including IT people, out of work, it should not be a problem to fill those positions with Americans.

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There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.

No wonder... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 17:40 · Score: 3, Informative

Have you ever tried applying for a green card in America? You get stuck in a queue and have to wait years before you might finally get permission to stay here. It's no way to plan a secure future for yourself. It's also worse for migrants from certain countries. I have Indian friends who have basically been told that the process may take so long that they'd be better finding other means to change their status (e.g. marriage).

The US makes it quite difficult for talented people who follows the law to stay in the country. It does not surprise me in the least that Indians are returning home.

During and immediately after WWII... by Starker_Kull · 2009-10-17 17:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

...the U.S. had the greatest rise in its living standards. Scientists, engineers, and other professionals from all over the world migrated here in seach of a better life, the opportunity to live pretty much in peace and quiet, or simply to survive. It was seen as the most desireable place to live in the world, and that seemed to become a self-fulfilling prophecy as 'the best and the brightest' came here to do their best.

I wonder, are more folks returning to their home countries' simply because of money and career advancement? Or do they feel less welcome in the culture? Or perhaps their own home cultures are changing to where they feel they can shape them for the better?

This seems more like an anecdote than a study; but there is something wrong when science and engineering and other technical fields are seen as undesirable by most Americans, and the immigrants who come here to learn them decide that they'll have better opportunites back home to use them.

Re:During and immediately after WWII... by scamper_22 · 2009-10-18 06:22 · Score: 2, Informative

On a more political note...
The West was getting its engineers and scientists on the cheap by importing them. Really no different than bringing in Mexicans to work on the farm or Chinese people to build the railways.
Western people are of course too good to be subjected to such tasks. They need just be in charge of everything, being bureaucrats and lawyers and business people.
You have a 'right' to cheap food, but don't want to work on the farms for the cheap wages to get cheap food... that's for lesser Latin peoples
You want a strong industry, but don't want to pay your engineers and scientists properly relative to the rest of society... that's for lesser people like Asians.
Everyone knows being an engineer or scientist in the Western world is a bad deal. Otherwise, your own people would be doing it. Much better to be a lawyer or work for the government or health care or education industries. You know, the nice work :P Work worth the time of the great western person :P We're not blind to such realities. We're very much aware of it. I'd like to say I am glad to be working hard, generating all the wealth for the West, only to see it used to subsidize Western people who have not earned their standard of living... just living off the wealth of the past. I'm not.
However we are glad to exchange our labor for money and skills. Yet, these are no longer colonial times... which still seems to be the prevailing mentality of Western people. No longer can you simply force us to do the mundane work, while you reap the profits and the high end work. Here's looking at you England and Indian colonialism :P Most Western people still hold this colonial attitude though. Interestingly, the only places where you don't get this attitude is in the American South. Sorry, but in a free world, this is impossible to sustain. We will do what any person does. We're going to take what we need (money and skills) and then go to where we get the better deal.
In this case, moving back home is simply a better option.
-high standard of living. Engineers earn as much or more than doctors in India.
-close to family (this is a huge one)
-no immigration/visa worries
-living in a rising society instead of a falling one ...
The transition is not complete. It is far from complete. The West still has a lot to offer in terms entrepreneurship, business management, legal systems... but those can all come in time.
All I can say to Western people is that colonialism is over. Get used to it.

Moral of the story by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 17:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Here in Quebec, Canada, universities charge a certain rate for Quebec residents, a higher one for students from other provinces and an even higher one for students from outside of Canada (France is an exception). The price ratio is about 1:2 for Quebec:out-of-province and about 1:5 for Quebec:non-Canadian. As a result, we have more "local" graduates who aren't tempted to return to their country after receiving a good education. This doesn't mean that the graduating population is predominantly white, male and heterosexual - it just means that we lose less graduates to their countries of origin.

The moral of the story: education is still too cheap for foreigners in the United States. If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, charge much more to people from other countries - this will decrease demand from foreigners and open spots to US citizens.

Re:Moral of the story by reilwin · 2009-10-17 18:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

The moral of the story: education is still too cheap for foreigners in the United States. If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, charge much more to people from other countries - this will decrease demand from foreigners and open spots to US citizens.
Eh?

Using McGill University and Harvard for comparison:

McGill foreign students tuition fees: about $31k a year.
Harvard students tuition fees: about $34k a year.

Not including administrative fees, club fees or expenses for room and board.

Quality of life by Concerned+Onlooker · 2009-10-17 17:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

"...most said their salaries brought a 'better quality of life' than what they had in the US."

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount. So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?

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http://www.rootstrikers.org/

Re:Quality of life by coaxial · 2009-10-17 17:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount.

Unless someone is afraid of being randomly assaulted or imprisoned, then no one cares. It's human nature. Bread and circuses you know? I've been to China. It's not Mao's China, not at all.

So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?
Canada?
Re:Quality of life by phantomfive · 2009-10-17 18:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

Somalia. The government is too weak to oppress anyone. Of course, that only works if you don't mind giving up a lot of your personal safety, but hey, you win some you lose some.

You really ought to define what you mean by government oppression. Would you include taxation in that category? Because you aren't going to find many governments that don't tax.....

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Qxe4
Re:Quality of life by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 18:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

I work in a place where the majority of my colleagues are Indian including both developers and management. I can attest to the trends. I'm the exception by not holding a masters and by being born here. I'm responding because of a false assumption you made. You guessed that the better quality of life is a materialistic quality. For the majority of my friends who moved back to India it was not about that. While that played a role, their wives and families were residing there. It was difficult to deal with the paper work. The cricket matches weren't shown live at 3am. It's a plethora of smaller items which all add up. They aren't from the US and do not necessarily share the same values as you. Think more holistically for a second and you'll understand. It's about living where you are comfortable and are content. That's why my Indian friends are moving back to India and I completely understand.
Re:Quality of life by Jeeeb · 2009-10-17 19:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Ever lived in a country where you don't speak the language natively? That alone would can be enough to make people want to move home.

Racism can be another factor. It's can be hard enough to live in a place where you clearly don't fit in in the first place. Let alone if you have people treating you like some sort of criminal for stealing 'their' jobs.

Finally human rights and personal liberty are very very broad and abstract concepts. Making absolute statements about them being championed in one country or not in another masks the reality of a much more complex situation. For example there is quite a lot of economic freedom in China and much greater chances to rise through company ranks would represent freedom to many.

Not only that but the situation changes relative to your personal circumstances. An Indian citizen living in India enjoys the right to vote and influence his government. Living in America until he gets citizenship he can't vote or influence his government. Tell me again where he has more liberty?
Re:Quality of life by martas · 2009-10-17 19:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

The truth is that for the average, say, Bengali, those things don't really matter that much. Sure, your government is horribly corrupt, and so are the police, healthcare system, etc. But if you've got enough money to get a nice apartment/home, and support your family's future, you're going to have a pretty happy life, filled with parties and religious/traditional festivals and holidays spent with your [extended] family. As opposed to here in the US, where being upper middle class means working 60 hours a week, seeing your kids 20 minutes a day, and having about a week of vacation time a year...

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weinersmith
Re:Quality of life by CowboyBob500 · 2009-10-17 20:31 · Score: 5, Informative

Absolutely agree with this. As a European I would never work in the US for all of the reasons listed. I don't care what money I could earn. "At will" employment scares me especially since you can be fired without any good reason. Working hours are ludicrous which seems to stem from the "at will" factor - people are too scared not to work those extra hours for fear of being fired. In the EU it is illegal to work more than 48 hours a week without special dispensation. And the final straw is that you don't even get decent vacation time for all those hours, I get 5 weeks here and I know plenty of people who get more.

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Listen to my latest album here
Re:Quality of life by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2009-10-17 22:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

Working hours are ludicrous which seems to stem from the "at will" factor - people are too scared not to work those extra hours for fear of being fired.
While that certainly does occur, my experience is that it is rare - at least at the professional level, maybe less so at the burger-flipping level. That most people work overtime because they want either the extra money or to get ahead in their career (presumably to get more money). Making it illegal to work more than 48 hours seems crazy from my perspective its like that saying "the nail that stands out gets hammered down."

And the final straw is that you don't even get decent vacation time for all those hours, I get 5 weeks here and I know plenty of people who get more.
Maybe we take our vacation in a different form. Consider the american pre-occupation with big houses, nice cars, giant televisions, etc. These are all little mini-vacations that we experience everyday. Is that better than taking a month off at the end of summer and traveling to the other side of the continent? Maybe, maybe not. But I think that ignoring it is to miss a fundamental difference in the societies.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:Quality of life by Dr.+Evil · 2009-10-17 23:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

My manager, frustrated with his long working hours, said to me "You know, in India, I earned one third the salary. My wife didn't have to work and I had servants. Why am I wasting my life working like a dog here?"
... well, it was funny when *he* said it.
Re:Quality of life by Rob_Bryerton · 2009-10-17 23:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

Before you mod me down, hear me out and try to think, OK? I'm not directing this semi-rant at anyone in particular, even if YOU think I am.

There is so much BS and misinformation that floats around these threads that it is absolutely ridiculous. It's just so fashionable to be anti-US, and so many uninformed viewpoints are formed by people such as the GP and parent that it's laughable, bordering on pathetic, really. If you want to spout off and sound like a fool because you want to be "in" and be a hater, then that's fine, but you just sound like an uninformed person with a chip on your shoulder.

You want to know who works these 60 hour weeks? People who work for crappy managers at bottom of the line companies that are poorly managed. People who have no spine to stand up for themselves. If you're in this position, it's your OWN FAULT for working for a company that uses you like the tool you apparently are. You're too lazy to get a job at a good company. Don't give me this economy BS either; good talent is always in demand, and regardless of what the average liberal /.'er spouts off about, all corporations ARE NOT 'evil'. You know, there are companies that value their people, that treat them with respect, that don't overwork their people, etc etc. If you're too lazy to find a decent job, that's your prerogative, but don't whine that it's the fault of American capitalism, or EVIL USA, or whatever your lame group-think of the day is. You're in your own position because that's what YOU CHOSE. PERIOD. Try being accountable for once, and quit expecting something for nothing. You own your destiny.

Listen, there are crappy companies out there, but it is YOUR CHOICE whether you work for them or not.

1 week vacations? Please, get a clue; just get real already. In our industry (you know, I.T.) I have NEVER seen anything under 2 weeks plus holidays, plus more after 3 to 5 years. Again , if you work for a company that uses you in a disrespectful manner, it's YOUR PROBLEM, and YOUR CHOICE to be there. PERIOD. Do something about your situation; you will not be given everything on a silver platter, life takes effort.

You may not like the USA, for whatever reasons, and that's fine. But you know what? We're just people like YOU, like YOUR families, no different at all. We're just born here, just like you were born somewhere else. Because you don't like our political "leaders'" policies, we all suck? NO, that's not fair at all. WE don't make political policy, WE don't directly elect our officials, no matter what you want to believe. WAKE UP.

You're so civilized, you're so superior in your country compared to us, right? WRONG. We're all the same. We're human beings who are at the mercy of our politicians and their sometimes terrible policies. But in your enlightened knowledge, you condemn all of ~300 million of us because of your dislike of a few of our politicians? Yeah, that's very enlightened of you. (That is sarcasm in cased you missed it.)

Everything is a trade-off. Many European countries have 4, 5, 6 week vacation policies. And you have other things we may not have which I'll not get into here. But you also PAY for those perks in terms of *vastly* higher taxation rates. Not an opinion, this is a *fact*. I'm not judging here, I'm just pointing out there's no free ride, only that there's a cost to everything. Yes, you get perks by paying for them, so quit trying to sound superior by implying that these perks are because of your superior society. They are not. They are paid for by YOU, DIRECTLY. Enough of that topic.

The "at will employment" thing is another red herring. People don't get let go from their jobs randomly. Either there's no work long term and you get let go (or the company goes under), or you screw up royally (or are a royal screw-up) and you lose your job. PERIOD. If you think people work 50% more hours than they get paid for because of fear of a random dismissal from their jobs, you're fooling yourself and you sound foolish
Re:Quality of life by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 04:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

1) Living in the EU is cheaper
2) I get paid more in the EU than in the states
3) 1+2: I save a lot more in the EU than in the states.

4) I work 7-8 hours a day, I tend to go home at 5. That means I have a live outside work every day. I have 40 days of holidays every year, I can distribute them as I want (usually a week every few month and some "big" weekends).

5) Transport works better: 10min from work through high quality highways (no speed limit!), very punctual public buses, trains...

6) If i get sick, i go to the doctor. No waiting lines (usually less than 30min, faster if you go to urgencies). I never go to the pharmacy before seeing a doctor, and my childrens do the same. This means that IM NOT AFRAID OF GETTING ILL, wich compared to Canada, where waiting times range from 2 hours in the CLSC to 9-10hours in hospitals is a huge improvement. And also they threat you with every single mean they have, without thinking about the "costs".

7) Security, my childs (8 and 6 years old) take the public bus to go to school, and they go alone (the first one started as he was 6 to go there alone), and Im not afraid cause i know nothing will happen. And on the other side, you dont see the police, or not a lot, but if something happens, 3mins later they are there! And you don't even know how they knew something was happening, but it's like that.

8) Again: no speed limits!

So yeah, the only downside here is that I pay more taxes (35-40%), but i still save more money than in the US. And i live with less preocupations, wich let me focus on more important things. Those are the thing that i count as quality of life, wich are lightyears away from the US.
Re:Quality of life by metlin · 2009-10-18 06:28 · Score: 2, Informative

You want to know who works these 60 hour weeks? People who work for crappy managers at bottom of the line companies that are poorly managed. People who have no spine to stand up for themselves.
Yeah? I work with people who do 60-80 hours a week on a regular basis. Hell, last week was a 70 hour week for me, not including travel. And I can assure you that it is not owing to poor management or because I'm at the bottom of the line, or because I can't stand up for myself. It is because the work culture in the US has made it necessary to do so in certain industries and at certain levels.
Look, you may have a job where you don't need to do that. Excellent. I'm happy for you (sort of). However, that in no way means that people with different work hours than you are there for the idiotic reasons that you cited.
Contrary to popular belief, the more educated and the higher you go in the food chain, the harder it becomes for you to find a job that meets your criteria. You can flip burgers anywhere; however, you can only do pharmaceutical research in cardiovascular diseases or decision sciences for airline operations in a handful of places (just giving a couple of examples).
Re: your comments on the goodwill of the corporations, what a slew of rubbish. Just look at historic numbers for how the American consumer was manipulated - from about 80% personal savings and 20% corporate savings, s/he is now in the net negative, with the companies making money off of individuals. The average American was investing less than 5% in the stock market in the 80s, but thanks to Greenspan, Reagan and the others, that trend shifted completely, resulting in the mess that we're in. But I digress.
Your argument on taxation is also untrue. In the salary range + bonus that I make, I would be taxed less in Europe and have more perks than I am in the US. Hell, my bonuses get taxed so highly that it makes me cringe. Hell, my company provides full free unlimited healthcare for me - however, the moment I add my fiancé to the plan, the government decides to tax that as a perk (which comes to about a couple of grand in taxes a month). I would much rather have social, free healthcare like in Europe than this bullshit that the US has.
And in case you are wondering, the only reason I'm still in the US is because my fiancé is still in school - the moment she gets out, I will be more than happy to go to a country where I can actually enjoy life, rather than work it all away.

Who says this is a bad thing? by ShooterNeo · 2009-10-17 17:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

The reasons for this exodus are straight out of an economics textbook. This is SUPPOSED to happen in a free world with free trade. Overall, this move is ADVANCING human civilization and making things just a bit better for the rest of humanity. Right now, the high tech industry in California is one of the most amazing industries the world has ever known. Among other things, those highly educated people who are returning to China and India are bringing knowledge and skills that will allow them to replicate some of the wonders of California in India and China. How is that a bad thing?

Sure, those Chinese and Indian companies will compete with the U.S. firms...but competition is a good thing for humanity as a whole.

Re:Who says this is a bad thing? by dreadlord76 · 2009-10-17 17:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think it's sad that many people are still bound by these artificial boundaries.
Re:Who says this is a bad thing? by dreadlord76 · 2009-10-17 18:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

If that was true, then we would still be hunting with long sticks rather than sitting in front of a keyboard.
Re:Who says this is a bad thing? by cetialphav · 2009-10-17 19:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

those highly educated people who are returning to China and India are bringing knowledge and skills that will allow them to replicate some of the wonders of California in India and China. How is that a bad thing?
Whether it is good or bad depends on which side of the ocean you are on. As an American, I think it is terrible that we are losing brilliant people. It is these types of people that advance the state of the art and create new companies and industries. Because I am selfish, I want that to happen in my own country so that I can benefit from this.
For those in China and India, this is obviously a great thing. It means that they are starting to be able to compete with the US for the best and brightest. Instead of watching their brightest stars go to the US and get rich creating jobs for Americans, they get to have this right in their backyard.
I agree with you that this is a natural part of free trade, but that does not mean we have to just accept it. This should be a wake up call to us that we have to compete harder than ever before to keep the smartest people here. In the past, we could win this competition without even trying, but now we will have to start working at it.

Different Cultural Values by Tablizer · 2009-10-17 17:52 · Score: 4, Informative

Two comments. First, "age of prime" is 30-33? Is IT really that anti-fogey? Second, degrees above bachelor are generally held in higher regard outside of the US. US companies value what they see as "actual productivity" and will usually trade a more productive BS for a lack-luster MS[1]. In most countries, especially Asia, advanced degrees are simply given more esteem compared to the US. More money AND more chicks.

[1] Those with advanced degrees claim their extra knowledge helps in areas that are less visible to management but still very important. But, that's another story.

--
Table-ized A.I.

Re:Different Cultural Values by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 20:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

In most countries, especially Asia, advanced degrees are simply given more esteem compared to the US. More money AND more chicks.
Parent speaks the truth.
In Thailand, when the owners of the hotel where I lived found out I was a published author, they immediately discounted my room rate by about 15%. Their explanation for this was, "As a writer of educational books, you bring honour to our hotel by allowing us to serve you. We would be remiss if we did not do something to show our gratitude." The staff practically worshipped me (and thanked me regularly for allowing them to serve such an important person!), and I pretty much had the run of the place.
At first, I thought, "Hey, this Honourable Exotic Foreign Writer In Residence thing is pretty cool, eh. Discounts, freebies, bowing and scraping, pretty Thai ladies asking me if I would care to bring them a little extra honour in the privacy of my suite. Damn, this is the life."
But as time went on, I begin to see that this wasn't just some formality, or for show, or in hopes of big tips -- they bloody well meant it.
I have never been so humbled in all my born days.
And it led to a big shift in my outlook on life.
Re:Different Cultural Values by jtheisen · 2009-10-17 23:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Same in continental Europe. Most people here only look at titles. What you're actually able to do is secondary.

Reverse? by il+dus · 2009-10-17 17:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe my brain has been drained, too, but, if all the educated people are leaving the US, wouldn't that be a good old regular brain drain and not a reverse brain drain?

--
"I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."

Re:Reverse? by DreamsAreOkToo · 2009-10-17 18:40 · Score: 4, Informative

In social studies, the "Brain Drain" was something the US was doing to the rest of the world by "taking away their brains." Now, those people are going back to their countries so it is a reversal of the "Brain Drain."

Not about Visas by lyinhart · 2009-10-17 18:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

From the article: "Some 27% of the Indians and 34% of the Chinese had permanent resident status or were U.S. citizens. That’s right—it’s not just about green cards." It does seem to have everything to do with the economy: "Only 7% of Chinese students, 9% of European students, and 25% of Indian students believe that the best days of the U.S. economy lie ahead. Conversely, 74% of Chinese students and 86% of Indian students believe that the best days for their home country’s economy lie ahead."

Given that the United States has taken the lion's share of blame for the "global economic crisis", this attitude is not surprising. Plus, we're long removed from the heyday of the Silicon Valley, an era in which innovation and idea poaching ruled instead of racing to patent anything remotely obvious. Twenty, even ten years ago, there was little talk of India or China becoming the next economic superpower. So the idea of being both financially secure and being close to your family is really appealing to these folks.

It's not all doom and gloom though - it still speaks volumes that these workers come to the United States to cut their teeth and gain the technical/management experience that they bring back home.

--
Freedom is drinking a beer in the park when you're supposed to be at work.

Re:moore's law is "reversing" too by Paktu · 2009-10-17 18:22 · Score: 3, Informative

i've been monitoring different computer performance benchmarks over the years, and back in the days up to the P4, double times were about thirty months. now they are up to three years, or more. the heartrate of the dream is what is slowing down....

That's a pretty bold claim you're making. Let's have a look at some actual numbers, shall we?

This chart indicates that not only are we keeping up with Moore's law, for the past 2-3 years we've actually moved ahead of where we'd expect to be. And the graph doesn't even include AMD's R800 graphics chips, which have even higher transistor densities than RV770/GT200.

My H1-B was rejected. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 18:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

I am in this position right now. I am an H1-B holder. I have a Masters in Computer Science. While most of my coworkers worked 40-45 hours a week I was doing 80 and quickly gained higher positions and expertise (hard work pays off in the land of opportunity). I love the US. Its a great place to live and I've lived here since I came to do my Bachelors (Computer Science also). I paid out of state tuition for all 7 years, out of my own pocket (which totaled > 60K).

I recently applied for an extension on my H1-B after my 3 years of working at a company and it was rejected by the government. The initial reason given was that we couldn't prove that my job required a degree so they came back and asked us for more info (called an RFI - request for information). (I am involved in long term projects from architecture, design, development and process analysis). The day I found out that my visa was rejected, my company, a small business of about 30 people also found out that a dept of the state had chosen me to work for them on a project for which they interviewed 30 people from around the US. My company lost that deal because the US rejected my visa and lost out on > 500,000 dollars of revenue over the contract. The company also lost 3 other contracts with clients I was currently with which would have probably panned out to 50k-100k each per year.

The revenue from that contract would have keep me and 2 other co-workers employed for at least 3 years and now my former company is going to probably fire 2 US citizens. This was the height of irony! The government royally screwed my company.

The immigration dept has really cracked down on H1-B visa holders and is rejecting them by asking them to prove stupid claims. Here are a few questions from my RFI.

1. Why does a Senior Software Engineer position require a Computer Science degree!
2. Provide all earning statements for the last 3 years and for all states you had income from.
3. Provide all client contracts that you had in the last 3 years for the full company.
4. Provide a detailed job description along with future contracts (for all 3 years) along with locations, contacts of client companies and images of work areas.

My visa was finally rejected because they feared that I would work in California (where my company doesn't have any clients or a branch). The process is really ridiculous right now and I have started looking at canada, singapore and india. I would prefer to stay and finish my 3 years and get a path to citizenship but if I have to leave, so be it.

The icing on the cake is that since they reject my appeal, I have 10 days to leave the country. So pack your bags, sell your car and belongings (or throw them away) and get the fuck out in 10 days.

Thanks for all the fish O Land of Opportunity!

I will say this to all you US citizen and green card holders. DO NOT SQUANDER YOUR OPPORTUNITIES! The US is the greatest place on earth and if you work hard, you can really live a great life. Peace.

Re:My H1-B was rejected. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 23:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Similar situation here, my visa will be up for renewal in 6 months and I'm not taking any chances. I'm going to return and leave the company even we both would like to continue the employment. Having family on 10 day notice to leave is just not feasible and US is not really that exceptional. Vacation times are terrible, children's education average, suburbs horrible, and political environment disgusting. Other than that very nice place, good people and great coworkers.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by DaveV1.0 · 2009-10-18 00:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

With so many out of work software engineers who are American citizens, why should your H1-B visa, which is supposed to be used to fill critical positions, requiring a specialized skill set, for which an American citizen can not be found. Sounds to me like while you worked hard and worked long hours, you did nothing that any one of the thousands of out of work American software engineers could not do.
You should never have been granted the H1-B visa in the first place.

--
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by BadDreamer · 2009-10-18 03:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

He did what none of the thousands of out of work American software engineers *did* do, or they wouldn't have been out of work. An H1B is not granted on potential alone, but on actual ability to accomplish.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by Civil_Disobedient · 2009-10-18 03:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

The immigration dept has really cracked down on H1-B visa holders and is rejecting them by asking them to prove stupid claims.
Well, be reasonable about this.
1. Why does a Senior Software Engineer position require a Computer Science degree!
That's a good question. I know plenty of successful, talented Sr. software engineers that went to school for philosophy, art history, history... many of them never even finished school. The only real reason a Sr. software engineer would require a CS degree is if it were a requirement for the job. Which is circular reasoning: you need a CS degree to be a Sr. SE because a Sr. SE needs a CS degree.
2. Provide all earning statements for the last 3 years and for all states you had income from.
Hate to break it to you, but we citizens have to do this every year.
3. Provide all client contracts that you had in the last 3 years for the full company.
Most likely to prove that you're actually working, and not attempting to bullshit your way to a green card.
4. Provide a detailed job description along with future contracts (for all 3 years) along with locations, contacts of client companies and images of work areas.
Same as above. Although, I find it a little ridiculous that they want to know what your future contracts are for the next three years. I mean, you're not a fortune-teller!
The process is really ridiculous right now and I have started looking at canada, singapore and india.
I mean this with sincere honesty: leave. Not because you're a burden on the system, or because immigrants==suck, or any other racist, xenophobic bullshit excuse a lot of people will give.
No, I'm saying leave because this country is a sinking ship. As an American, I would leave this country in a heartbeat if I knew I could find work in Canada or Europe. You do not want to be here. The people here are some of the most vile, ignorant, hateful people on the planet. Go someplace where you will be appreciated. Go someplace that has health insurance. Go someplace that treats its immigrants with the respect that they deserve.
So pack your bags, sell your car and belongings (or throw them away) and get the fuck out in 10 days.
Yeah, that's some fucking bullshit right there. Like I said... this is an opportunity in disguise. The next twenty years are going to be incredibly rough on the great American "experiment," and I feel the only ones who will be left will be the religious nut-jobs that seem to breed like rabbits.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 03:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

you did nothing that any three of the thousands of out of work American software engineers could not do.
here, fixed that for ya.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by BadDreamer · 2009-10-18 06:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

He pulled in work for his employer. If the thousands of out of work American software engineers did they wouldn't be out of work. Since they can't, his H1B was warranted, as was its extension, and the US government failed in this case. Provided the story is correctly retold, of course.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by six11 · 2009-10-18 06:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm really sorry to hear about your H1-B issue. I'm a citizen, but my girlfriend is not. She was recently hired as a university professor, but almost didn't make it because the H1-B process got screwed up. Her PhD is in operations research with a concentration in project management; the RFI included questions such as "why is her PhD appropriate for teaching project management and operations research". It is obvious to even a casual observer that the question was not asked in earnest, but instead was a delaying tactic for some reason. So we had to get lawyers involved (since her university was basically worthless in helping the situation get sorted). Our lawyer told us the government was issuing significantly more RFIs, most of which were ludicrous such as yours.
The way my government treats "foreigners" is enough to make me seditious. You say the US is the greatest place on Earth. Obviously that's a judgment call and I'm not going to argue. But certainly the volume of bogons the USA is emitting these days is unforgivably pathetic.
I hope you can find a way to make it back to the US, because you sound like the kind of person that we want living and working here.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 07:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

If his company lost out on a contract that would have netted them $500K+ because out of the 30 people they felt were qualified for interview he was the one they wanted, then I'd have to disagree that the out of work SEs were capable of replacing him.
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-18 07:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

You have some excellent points.
1. A Sr. Software Engineer position at my company is more than just coding. There are tertiary skills involved in doing my job too. For instance, I also work with clients (most of them CTO, CIO etc.) so you have to be an excellent communicator (and taking a shower everyday is necessary..lol).
However, it is also about being very analytical and being able to become a subject matter expert in not just development/management but also in whatever space you end up in (I've worked through my company on Investment, Insurance, Medical imaging etc.). When you are with a client, they look to you for the answers. An inability to provide them and follow them through would mean loosing repeat business and future clients (contact based selling).
2. Sorry I should have said, the question was asked of the company and not me. I have paid all my taxes as has the company. Not only that, I paid toward Social Security too (which as a H1-B) I will never see. YOU ARE WELCOME! :-)
3. Yes but also to track whether you have worked outside the current city where your company is based. H1-Bs are not allowed to work outside the city for the company. (Its tied to an LCA #).
4. There is no way to guarantee that a client will keep you on for 3 years. There is also no way to provide future contracts. Also I'm not sure companies want to provide contracts to the government.
I really prefer it here but if I have to leave, I will. But I will miss you! :-)
Re:My H1-B was rejected. by DaveV1.0 · 2009-10-18 08:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

He pulled in work for his employer. If the thousands of out of work American software engineers did they wouldn't be out of work
Unless, of course, he did it for a cheaper wage and the was the primary reason for hiring him. H1-B visas are not supposed to be cost-cutting measures. Also, he did not pull in that work BEFORE he was hired, therefore it is not a reason to provide him with an H1-B.

--
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.

This is hardly a surprise by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-17 19:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

A US citizen who is a senior engineer or manager makes somewhere between $120K-$200K, depending upon the company and value of stock options. In the bay area or elsewhere in coastal california, the quality of life that buys you is very much middle class - nothing special house, 2 cars, struggling to put the kids in private school, etc. This is especially true if single or the spouse isn't working, which is more likely to be true for a foreigner. A western educated engineering manager in India can probably afford a nice home, several servants, nice holidays (with vacation time to match), etc. It is hardly surprising that, without the likely return of dotcom millions in the stock option lottery, the lure of their home country has a lot more appeal. Or maybe it is just that all of the engineers who came over in their early to mid twenties during the dotcom boom have now reached maturity, both professionally and personally, and are looking to start a family back at home or take their family home before the kids get too old. If the average age of returning tech workers is into the 30s, that seems somewhat likely. A 36 year old was 22 at the start of the internet boom years, 24 when things really started to take off.

My case by varanama · 2009-10-17 19:29 · Score: 5, Interesting

I was born in Madrid, Spain. As i was 10 my parents changed me to a german high school and after that i went to Germany to study engineering. While I was studying Mechanical Engineering in Aachen I went one year abroad to Montreal. That's when i started realizin.g than maybe North America wasn't as advanced as i thought, But hey, Canada is not the USA. So when I finished and got the opportunity to made my Phd at Berkeley, I took it. Coming from Germany, I've always looked at Berkeley and MIT as "the future". I thought they were light years from us, another dimension, robots walking through the campus... I thought it was going to be like the jump from Spain to Germany...

When I arrived, it didnt took me long to realize how wrong I was. After two years I remember talking with my parents, and saying that at the moment the only thing I wanted was to finish as fast as possible. I just wanted to be able to put Berkeley in my resumee and leave, because I really thought I was waisting my time. I was trying as hard as possible to be productive. But it was not only that my tutor was not good enough, or that my department didn't had the money I needed, the worst part is that we were overall behind what my department in Germany was doing. I felt so frustrated spending 90% of the time reinventing the wheel and putting the USA stamp, feeling that I was leaving in the past, and trying but not finding the way to do something about it that i really wanted to leave and do something useful with my life. It was even worst when I talked with a good friend of mine who was also doing his Phd at the same department in Munich. He got almost unlimited finantiation, lots of students doing their master thesis for him, and was really learning a lot, not only about the subject, but about managing a big reserarch team and lots of long time experiments, we just didn't had the same means...

When I finished it was really easy to find interesting jobs in the states, I even doubted because of one really interesting offer at Lockheed. But the real fact was, that the offers from Germany where at a whole different level. I had been in Berkeley! For them that was... Godlike. As I came back I started working for a private company for almost three years, and after that I took a part-time management position at that company and been working there partime since. At the same time I started also working part-time in my second Phd at the university. Im not only doing what i really like, at the moment Im getting a lot of support from very good people, students included, and from the university, state, privates companies... I really feel that im working with the best people in the world.

And till now i've just mentioned the academic side! The rest of my life can be summarized in: I'm payed better in Europe than in the States and at the same time living here is cheaper! And if you add a better public transport system, higher security feeling, way better health care... it's not hard to understand way researches are not staying there. I know a lot of indian people here, and they have already moved their families in and have no plans to retourn to India in the distant future...

So yeah, people go to the states to study because of the fame. When they arrive, they realize things back home werent so bad as they thought. And when they finish things even get better at home, because due to their studies in the states, they are seen as gods... If you add that the quality of life in the states isn't even in the top10 of the world, and that the loan/expenses ratio is better in lots of other countries, you have your answer.

--
Keep in mind what you're doing without ever forgetting how you are doing it.

Re:My case by SteveAstro · 2009-10-18 05:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

...born in Spain, moved to Germany as a child and capable of writing pretty damned well in English.
How is YOUR German and Spanish ? And you could do with learning to check your spelling before posting about someone's grammar.
Steve

America isn't the place it used to be by 91degrees · 2009-10-17 20:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Historically, America has been the land of opportunity. It was the place people went to to start a completely new life. None of the squalor, starvation, and domestic wars of Europe. None of the harsh totalitarianism of China. Of course, a journey for the family would cost a fortune, so it was only going to be one way.

It's just not like that any more. It's a nice place to live, but so is everywhere else if you have money. Money can be earned if you have experience. And flights are quick and cheap. Even people from relatively poor countries can afford a flight to another continent.

Returning home was always the plan. People miss their home. Returning home after a few years and getting a good job in their home country has always been part of the plan. If you have a few years' experience working at a major US tech firm, everyone wants you to work for them.

I came, I saw, I left by Alioth · 2009-10-17 21:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

I worked in the US for a few years. So why did I leave?

Of course, everyone says the grass is greener in the US, but compared to home, really it's not - it's just different. But there were enough downsides to being in the USA which made me eventually leave. In order:

1. Family. I would prefer being close to them, 4800 miles isn't close enough. (I now live 10 minutes walk from my Dad).
2. The INS Dehumanization programme - the Kafkaesque manner in which visas and green cards are processed. I just wasn't willing to go through that any more. I hear it's even worse for people from places like India and China, I guess I'm lucky coming from Europe.
3. Healthcare - I like living somewhere where I never need to ever worry about getting healthcare, even if I fall upon bad times.
4. Bigotry and illiberalism - I lived in Texas. Too many religious people, and when I left, also Bush was President.

Don't get me wrong, I think overall the United States is a good country, and one of the best in the world - despite its faults. Any country has faults. But I just wasn't prepared to go through the unpredictable, abitrary and dehumanizing immigration processes to live somewhere that's just as faulty as my home country, but is also 4800 miles from my family.

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Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows

Re:I came, I saw, I left by danpat · 2009-10-18 03:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

I mirror this situation. My wife and I had the opportunity to work in San Francisco for a couple of years. We're Australian.
The experience was great, but in the end, all the little things (health care, racism, homeless, political opinions, the ongoing wars, etc) added up and San Francisco is pretty liberal and open-minded compared to most of the rest of the US. We now live in Canada where the quality of life is great and we have public health care, so we don't worry about going bankrupt if we get sick. Don't underestimate how important that idea is to a lot of people.
For those Americans that are afraid of the whole spectrum of "socialist" political ideas all I can say is "don't knock it till you've tried it." While complete freedom is a wonderful idea, it often appears not to be practical when attempting to maximise the quality of life of a large population. There are certain freedoms that appear to be worth giving up (in countries like Australia and Canada, we haven't felt oppressed and it's nice not having to worry about people exercising their freedom to carry a concealed weapon).
In more socialist countries, it appears that the general concensus is that everyone gives something up to improve the quality of life for the whole. In the US, the general concensus seems to be that no-one should give anything up (even if they never use it), fuck you commie bastards. I always found discussions with that kind of attitude difficult. The "Team America" movie is hilarious because it's all so true to life.
Fair enough, I guess, but it doesn't suit everyone.
Re:I came, I saw, I left by Alioth · 2009-10-18 21:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Touched a nerve, did I?
If you re-read my post, you'll see I didn't say that where I live is "perfect", indeed, I said it had plenty of faults. I am under no illusions of the imperfections of where I live.
However, having lived in both places (not just visited, but lived) I can honestly say bigotry is a much bigger problem in all the places I've lived in the United States than it is here. Not just the usual ignorant us-vs-them racism which exists here too, but the intolerant Christian fundamentalism, such that to put a Darwin fish on my car would be to risk being physically attacked.

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Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows

Now the best overseas students don't come to US... by yet-another-lobbyist · 2009-10-18 00:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

In our University, we notice that the overall strength of the graduate student applicants from overseas significantly decreased over the past few years. While we were under the impression to get the best and the brightest from countries like China a few years back, this does not seem to be the case any more. We think this is because many of them now find great opportunities in their countries and don't come here in the first place!
And no, this is not a good thing. Similarly to what was mentioned further above, we would LOVE to admit more U.S. students to our body, however there are simply not enough domestic student applicants who are strong enough to keep our cutting-edge research program going. So when we're no more getting the top foreign students, we are in trouble!
One more thing: there are significant differences in the qualities that U.S. students bring with them compared to foreign students. In China, the students seem to grow up in a very authoritative system, where discipline is very important. That is actually detrimental to out-of-the-box-thinking and creativity. So in this respect, the U.S. students are actually much better, and this is why we would like to have more of them. However, that's only one of the necessary qualities you need. Obviously, you also need a robust background in the sciences, and you need to be really motivated and hard working if you want to succeed in cutting-edge science and research.

Employment policies - US vs. Europe by qbzzt · 2009-10-18 01:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

"At will" employment scares me especially since you can be fired without any good reason.

How do European companies handle it when people don't bother to do a good job? How do they handle it when there's a downturn and they can't afford to keep all the people they hired? Or when there's a surge in demand and they need people to work longer hours?

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-- Support a free market in the field of government

Re:Employment policies - US vs. Europe by Reziac · 2009-10-18 01:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Per what I've heard, this is why young people can't get jobs in France anymore -- you can't be fired even if you don't bother to show up for work. This rewards the lazy and hurts those who pay wages, but hey, it's liberal mecca, so don't knock it!

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~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Re:Employment policies - US vs. Europe by CowboyBob500 · 2009-10-18 02:39 · Score: 2, Informative

How do European companies handle it when people don't bother to do a good job?

They get fired just like everywhere else. However, there must be a very good reason for being fired and the company needs to prove negligence otherwise the employee has a right to take the company to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal.

How do they handle it when there's a downturn and they can't afford to keep all the people they hired?

In this case your job is made redundant. This means you get a statutory amount of redundancy pay based on how many years you have worked at the company, plus you get at least a months notice. But, the company needs to do careful planning since the job now no longer exists, the company is not allowed to hire anyone in that position for a certain period of time. I think its a year here in the UK, but I'm not sure. The result is you don't get the firing and hiring that you get in the US and companies need to think longer term.

Or when there's a surge in demand and they need people to work longer hours?

If its a temporary surge in demand, then you get contractors in. If its a permanent surge in demand then you hire more people. Like I said, its illegal to ask someone to work more than 48 hours in a week. I remember once working for the UK wing of an American owned company when this situation happened. Our US colleagues had their vacation forcibly cancelled and were forced to work weekends. We were protected by our labour laws and so didn't have to put up with that shit.

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Listen to my latest album here
Re:Employment policies - US vs. Europe by CowboyBob500 · 2009-10-18 02:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Per what I've heard, this is why young people can't get jobs in France anymore -- you can't be fired even if you don't bother to show up for work.

What you've heard is a crock of shit, most likely scare tactics by the US right wing. Probably the same people that said the UK's National Health Service was evil.

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Listen to my latest album here

Actually by WindBourne · 2009-10-18 01:21 · Score: 3, Interesting

That would have been the case had W done his part. Per the clinton agreement, in 2002, CHina was to allow their money to be freely traded AND they were to drop trade barriers. Right now, China still controls their money and has 25% tariffs on all goods. To make matters worse, they are purposely discouraging trade. For example, look at pollution control. This is technology that they DO NOT HAVE, but the west is loaded with. But they have 4 TRILLION dollars surplus. China says that they want the west to GIVE THEM THE TECH FOR FREE and will not buy ANY OF THE WESTERN CONTROLS. Lately, they have been stealing the plans for these. It is obvious that they will be selling pollution controls to other nations soon based on those stolen designs.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

80 hours a week?!? by NoYob · 2009-10-18 01:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

The US is the greatest place on earth and if you work hard, you can really live a great life.

What life?! When I worked that much, I worked, barely got any exercise, gained 50 lbs, slept, got depressed, blood pressure went up, triglycerides too, and burned out. I had NO social life and I was incredibly lonely. While others were getting married and having kids - I was working.

Great life, indeed!

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It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.

Many others going overseas also... by canadian_in_beijing · 2009-10-18 03:01 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's not just Indians and Chinese 'sea turtles' going back overseas.... I have no background in China, born a Canadian of European background and spent the past 5 years in Beijing. Found thousands of Canadians and Yanks just like myself living in China. Who are these people? Most are highly ambitious entrepreneurs from good families that are searching for the new wild west, the land of opportunity. They could easily stay and work in the US but some of (maybe lots of) todays youth are not happy working in mega corporations who don't give a shit about their employees, long hours, little recognition/room for advancement, no loyalty, etc...

By many China is seen as the new wild west with new opportunities, challenges, and a sense of adventure that can't be found back home. One billion people where everyone needs new products and ideas. At least that's what the new expats believe. Easy road to riches... but that's not the case. I never met anyone over in Beijing that made a fortune off of China except the expats on big overseas packages. Most small foreign start ups are loosing or breaking even... and as a foreigner in China your chances of success are severely crippled because of your lack of Guanxi.

Benefits of living in China: Cheap cost of living, nice modern apartments with all the amenities (pools, gyms, squash, etc), extremely safe, maids, cooks, drivers, cheap taxis, new restaurants opening every day with fanatical service, rapidly expanding nightlife, modern architecture that puts most US cities to shame, cheap shopping, ability to grab weekend vacation flights around Asia for cheap, holidays like the Chinese new year with all the fireworks are amazing, etc. It is possible to live very well on $1-1500/month. Most foreigners just out of university get by on significantly less. Overall there is a great sense of adventure in daily life, nothing is routine.

Disadvantages: pollution! ...remember some days not being able to see 5 feet in front of my face, most days not being able to see a building 200 feet away... covered in smog. Hard to find quality western groceries. Chinese people are very friendly overall but it takes lots of time to build up connections and guanxi. You can't just go over there and expect to start up the next Google in a year because the locals will shut you out. In Beijing there is little life on the streets except for Wanfujing... central development has left most streets deserted because there's no shops or culture around lots of areas. Old Beijing and the hutongs are disappearing at an alarming rate to put up shiny new skyscrapers. Office culture is a nightmare in terms of productivity. Trying to get anything done that requires innovation is like building the great wall because nobody will stick their neck out and take a chance. Managing most local Chinese people is difficult and requires detailing every aspect of their job, productivity is slow. Government regulations require you to hire so many locals and it is becoming harder to fire non performing people. Office rents can be as high as in the US. Overall I found the overall cost of doing business in China was on par with costs in the US. Also government policies are highly unpredictable and can severely cripple your companies ability to do business. Long terms there are many risks and uncertainties.

Why did I leave China? Got fed up with the quality of life and lack of opportunities in China. Also there was some Chinese government visa changes. When I left about half of my friends were also planning on leaving. Lots of expats were planning on moving their business out of the country to places such as India or finding work in Dubai or elsewhere in Asia.

US is not the land of opportunity it once was. The bush era has left a bad taste in everyones mouth and it will take a long time to get over. Where are all the opportunities in the US if there's no commons (manufacturing, R&D, etc) in things like solar, electric cars, electronics, etc? The US needs to keep these hubs of innovation in the US or the talent will keep going overseas.

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New View Media - Custom Website Design

the real story: finally, world war II is gone by cinnamon+colbert · 2009-10-18 03:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

In 1945 we were the economic king of the hill not because we are smarter or more creative (the myth of the non creative asian will be viewed by our children the way we view the idea that woman are tempermentally unsuited to excercise the vote) but because the other guys were down.
Finally the restof the world is catching up; this explains the long term (since the 50s) decline of the american job market (except for the top 1%), the silly idea (obama) that more education and hard work will help (like we are really gonna out word/dollar someone in china)

Sure go ahead and watch what happens by WindBourne · 2009-10-18 03:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

Britain put a gun on China and made them do their will. We will disregard the other issues (civility, legality, etc), and just focus on RAMIFICATIONS. China has spent the majority of their economic gains on THEIR MILITARY over the last decade. In addition, they have focused the majority of that effort on OFFENSIVE weapons, not defensive. Basically, China could not stop a western attack that involved America. BUT, once that looks likely to happen, China WILL ATTACK. Why? They now have the ability to attack our communication and GPS network. In addition, they are in the process of building new military only space stations. That holds ZERO advantage over automated systems EXCEPT for ability to control a weapon. In addition, they are now building new nuclear subs at an extremely high rate. They are spitting out 1-2 new ATTACKS subs AND 1-2 new BOOMERS EACH YEAR. America has 14 boomer capable, but only 10 are in use as such. China appears to now have 8-10 boomers TODAY (with more on the way). In addition, they have restarted their neutron bomb productions combined with regular hydrogen bombs.

What it amounts to, if you put a gun on China today (and only nuclear will work), then China WILL ATTACK. And they CAN WIN or at the least stop the west.

That option is no longer viable. Personally, I am thankful for that. OTH, Chinese leaders are thinking that they CAN win in a nuclear war. That twisted idea is going to cause a new WW.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

Location, Location, Location... by coryking · 2009-10-18 03:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you live in bumbleskunk, yeah you might find that. You live in a city on one of the coasts, then not so much. It all depends.

Old News by tbannist · 2009-10-19 02:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Hello Slashdot, Welcome to 2005: The World is Flat.

Thomas L. Friedman book on this very topic was published in 2005. It is a trend that will continue and probably grow larger and America's prosperity will become increasing tarnished. Why do foreigner workers return home after getting educated at top American Universities? Because they can. With the advent of better telecommunications (America is increasingly one of the worst countries for internet access) and better collaboration platforms, and increased offshoring. Well educated people can increasingly return to their home countries where they not only "fit in" better with people who speak their own native tongue and share their cultural backgrounds, but back home they go from being another small fish to being one of the biggest fishes in their respective ponds.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the United States is headed for a severe shock, the science and technology elite of the United States are aging. And not enough young people are following in their foot steps. We all know the reasons, smart people don't get any respect, scientists and engineers don't get paid the same as TV and sports stars, bank presidents or lawyers, the reasons go on. But it doesn't really matter, the United States is about to go into a long and painful collapse and by the time everyone realizes what happening it'll be 20 years too late to do anything about it (that is it'll take 20 years to educate a new crop of students to replace the people who have retired).

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Fanatically anti-fanatical

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