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Sequoia Voting Systems Source Code Released

Mokurai sends a heads-up about Sequoia Voting Systems, which seems to have inadvertently released the SQL code for its voting databases. The existence of such code appears to violate Federal voting law: "Sequoia blew it on a public records response. ... They appear... to have just vandalized the data as valid databases by stripping the MS-SQL header data off, assuming that would stop us cold. They were wrong. The Linux 'strings' command was able to peel it apart. Nedit was able to digest 800-MB text files. What was revealed was thousands of lines of MS-SQL source code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election, in violation of a bunch of clauses in the FEC voting system rulebook banning interpreted code, machine modified code and mandating hash checks of voting system code." The code is all available for study or download, "the first time the innards of a US voting system can be downloaded and discussed publicly with no NDAs or court-ordered secrecy," notes Jim March of the Election Defense Alliance. Dig in and analyze.

406 comments

  1. ha ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now does stripping the illusion of voting away make us more or less free

    1. Re:ha ha by Cryacin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now does stripping the illusion of voting away make us more or less free

      Don't blame me! I voted for Kodos!

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:ha ha by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Vote! Vote my little worms!
      Divert your will and energies into our little show of "change"!

      While another Goldman exec is put in charge of "Enforcement - ensuring that there is none...

      You see, under the post-Kennedy era system of American government, executive and legislative sideshows are intended not to demonstrate and direct power - but to distract from the real power of the land.

      Bang! One magic bullet. You buy that story, and they already had you in the Matrix.

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    3. Re:ha ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think, human!

    4. Re:ha ha by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that?

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    5. Re:ha ha by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1
      From TFA:

      The goals:
      * Determine the security risks associated with editing this code in the field.
      * Determine what this code does, and if it does so honestly, effectively or in a legal fashion.
      * Determine if this code even legally exists or meets the legal definitions for a "voting system" at all under federal or state published guidelines.

      They can't say at the moment whether vote rigging could or did take place, they simply have gotten access to code that Sequoia apparently wanted kept secret, and are studying it and making it available for others to study. It may turn out that regardless of the relative security and trustworthiness of the code, it may be in violation of Federal laws for other reasons. Let's not jump to any fun conspiracy-theory conclusions (although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they turn out to be correct). There will be plenty of time to hang people after we know more about what was found.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
  2. What? by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...a portion of the voting process is corrupt? Who would have thought that!

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:What? by buswolley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To make light of this does not do justice. This is potentially huge news.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:What? by whiplashx · · Score: 4, Informative

      Appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election

      What exactly does that mean?

      Means they suspect that the code for the actually tallying and evaluating ballots is in SQL. It is suggested that this violates the law for being dynamic and interpreted.

    3. Re:What? by RichardJenkins · · Score: 1

      Never ascribe to corruption what you can ascribe to malicious incompetence.

    4. Re:What? by Idefix97 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I for one welcome our Afghan overlords!

    5. Re:What? by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone with half a brain realized converting from dumb paper ballots to "smart" electronic machines that could manipulate the votes was a Bad Idea (tm). Unfortunately that disqualifies most of our state politicians.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:What? by stinerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As my Software Engineering instructor said...

      Someone was thinking that voting was primarily a counting problem and had the idea that computers were excellent at counting, so computers would be excellent at registering votes.

      Of course, voting is minimally about counting, and from what we've seen even these clowns couldn't do that right.

    7. Re:What? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Bad idea? What, making it so that those who paid them money to vote the way they wanted could ensure that they continued to be elected was a bad idea?

      I haven't been able to make myself believe that this choice was made in innocence. Fixing elections has happened on a small scale for a long time. This is merely the modernizing of that "fine old tradition".

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the media will ignore it. Remember last year when voting machines were found to have *actually* lost votes in an Ohio election? No? That was an even bigger story, and the media ignored that as well...

      Never underestimate the ability of the media in this country to ignore important news in favor of the latest distraction.

    9. Re:What? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Not according to Mr. ' or '1'='1

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    10. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming voting makes a difference.

    11. Re:What? by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Anyone with half a brain realized converting from dumb paper ballots to "smart" electronic machines that could manipulate the votes was a Bad Idea (tm). Unfortunately that disqualifies most of our state politicians.

      Wrong, Chucko! I have it on the very best knowledge that our state politicians do have half a brain.

      Each.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    12. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

    13. Re:What? by F34nor · · Score: 1

      Wrong again jackass! American voting is a partisan run system where each side keep the inequalities when in power because they know they will be able to leverage them later for their own benefit. Also wrong because politicians obviously win and control your and my life. Not half a brain, twice the brains of the technological "smart" who are politically clueless and socially retarded.

    14. Re:What? by Nikker · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity what could this mean if there are flaws and the last 3 elections were wrong?

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    15. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      needs to be +5 insightful, at least by AC standards

    16. Re:What? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      In the US, nothing.

      Now please bear in mind I am a Canadian so I am not positive as to what your system has in the way of rectification. My understanding is that you vote for members of the electoral college and they appoint the President. While they technically can (and occasionally have) choose against their state's wishes, they choose the candidate that belongs to their party.

      So, even if the votes were fraudulently cast, one could argue that the electoral college was free to choose whom they wanted and that there would be no requirement to redo the election.

      Also, you don't have time machines.

      In Canada we would likely do nothing, but for a different reason. The winning party is chosen by acquiescence -- the leaders of the other parties call to admit defeat and hand over control of the country. We don't even count all the votes, we just count enough to get a statistical probability that each riding goes to a specific candidate.

      Also, we've had 4 elections in the last 5 years and the next one means we're burning down Parliament.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    17. Re:What? by Organic+Brain+Damage · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Paper ballots. Counted by computer. That's what we do in my state. You mark the paper ballot, insert it into a mark-sense reader and it spits out the ballot of you've inadvertently spoiled it and you can get another one and do it again. And if there's a recount, the original votes are preserved on paper, a much more stable media than computer disks. Touch screens, for at least two or three reasons are a bad choice for voting.

    18. Re:What? by shentino · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason voting irregularities mean diddly squat in a presidential election is due to the fact that Joe Citizen's votes don't matter directly.

      Thanks to the electoral college, any voting irregularities are overruled by the imprimatur elector fiat.

    19. Re:What? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Half a brain? It seriously wouldn't take that much. Anyone more responsive than Karen Ann Quinlan could figure it out if they just made the effort.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    20. Re:What? by Mr+Z · · Score: 0, Troll

      Those electors sure saved us a bunch of trouble in Florida in 2000, didn't they?

    21. Re:What? by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's a bad idea, at least in all the ways it's been implemented so far. However, it's a bad idea even just considering the incompetence of the voting software suppliers. I'm still skeptical that Sequoia or Deibold are purposefully trying to manipulate elections.

      Inadvertently and recklessly manipulating elections, I would agree with. Trying to cover their ass, definitely. Criminal? Yeah, maybe; that level of incompetence shouldn't be allowed to touch our election process.

    22. Re:What? by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Last three presidential elections? There's really no chance that voting machines could have influenced the outcome.

      Now, maybe one of the last two local or congressional races might have been close enough... but those sorts of shenanigans go on with or without voting machines. Look at the way the current governor of Washington won her seat, if you want to be outraged at manipulation of election results.

    23. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn that malicious malice!

    24. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THE ROBINSON VOTING METHOD

      is the only fraud proof, super cheap, verifiable, INSTANT voting method the world needs.

      http://tinyurl.com/c7z4x6

      Everything else is a waste of time, smoke and mirrors for corrupt politicians so they can steal the elections from the people.

      Spread the word about the Robinson Voting Method everywhere - your life depends on it.

    25. Re:What? by Painted · · Score: 1

      Sometimes all you can do is laugh- it's that or cry.

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    26. Re:What? by unitron · · Score: 1

      Last three presidential elections? There's really no chance that voting machines could have influenced the outcome.

      Except in Ohio, Indian Reservations in the Southwest, and probably some other places we don't know about yet.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    27. Re:What? by buzzn · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome our Afghan overlords!

      I for one welcome our CIA overlords!

      There, I fixed it for you.

      --
      Join the window installer's union, where prosperity is a brick throw away!
    28. Re:What? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      mySQL for storing of a Ballot results, good idea. 800 lines of code? Now, it's starting to smell like fish 3 days in the sun. A counting system is treated as ungraded homework for First Year Computer Students. I believe who ever the Grinning Show Off is, is at the least, Insane, at the very most, is Criminally Insane.

    29. Re:What? by mindstrm · · Score: 1

      Correct I believe, but they don't actually vote for the member of the electoral college - they vote for which president or party they want in power - and the electoral college members are supposed to pass this on. It has happened that they don't, and while I believe that can result in problems for the misbehaving college member back home, it wouldn't invalidate the election.

    30. Re:What? by Cormophyte · · Score: 1

      You know. I, for one, really like the ability of these people who actually cast the votes to not follow what the votes as reported by the people in charge of the election. You know, cause sometimes not being legally tied to the results of things like...voting machines could be a good thing? You know?

    31. Re:What? by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      24 states have laws punishing faithless electors, to be fair.

    32. Re:What? by rbrausse · · Score: 1

      hmm, why stop at the point "mark the paper ballot"? heck, it could be a good idea to *count* those paper ballots without the help of machines.

      like everyone else I don't trust human beings - but the at-least-four-eyes principle while creating something essential as election results a sine qua non for democratic societies, it is more transparent to trust in "I know the guys that counted the votes" than to believe in some black-box code.

      sure, it would need some hours more until the actual result can be published - so what? here in Baden-Württemberg (a state of Germany) the end results of local elections (complicated election system with panachage and cumulative voting) are often published 3-4 days after the election day - and everyone (even the event-driven media) can handle this delay.

      long story short: I want to know my assholes. and the most familiar and transparent assholes are human beings counting paper ballots

    33. Re:What? by slashling · · Score: 1

      in soviet russia machine counts you!

    34. Re:What? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      I'm still skeptical that Sequoia or Deibold are purposefully trying to manipulate elections.

      Sequoi and Deibold are corporations; abstract concepts which can't actually do anything. Most likely some specific people in each company are manipulating the votes whilst the rest know nothing.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    35. Re:What? by Thing+1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just saw the free movie Zeitgeist Addendum last night. It explains how the US keeps the whole world under our thumb through the Federal Reserve, the fractional lending reserves, and the World Bank which gives loans to other countries in order for our corporations to go in there and build infrastructure -- in other words, we loan them money, they pay it to us (via our corporations), and then they still owe the entire amount of money.

      And the fact that our money is created out of thin air, via debt, is just stunning. I urge everyone to watch this; it completely explains how international banking systems are corrupting the planet.

      There are some flaws! You may want to fast-forward through the first 7 minutes or so, until they start talking about the banking system, as the beginning drags on (and doesn't follow the excellent speech-writer's take: "tell them what you're going to tell them; tell them; then tell them what you told them", but oh well -- it's full of great stuff). And the last hour is pretty out there; it makes sense, but it sounds more like a sales pitch for The Venus Project (which is not necessarily a bad thing, they're very forward-thinking). Also, you may want to watch it with the captions on, as many portions of the movie are rather dark, with no motion, so the captions helped both with recall, and also gave my eyes something to pay attention to.

      Anyway, your post reminded me of a part from it, which describes how our corporations control the media (the thread on the ad for the medical marijuana reviewer had a post repeating what most of us already heard on-line, that Mexico recently reclassified pot with laws similar to how Amsterdam treats it, and rightly said "bet you didn't hear that on the six o'clock news") -- a few major corporations control almost every newspaper and TV station in the country. Politicians looking to gain media exposure need to "toe the line" or they won't get funding; or, more realistically, the corporations choose a politician that nobody has ever even heard of, but through constant repetition are able to convince us that we've known of that person for some time. Even someone as insipid as Sarah Palin.

      Don't want to make this a huge rant, so I'll just end with: watch the movie. I actually haven't seen the first one, and am going to download it right now (from the first link, above). Enjoy!

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    36. Re:What? by shentino · · Score: 1

      Honestly I don't know if that would survive a constitutional challenge.

      IMO, states trying to interfere with the electoral college system, ESPECIALLY in a presidential election, may be seen as usurping federal authority.

      Anyone with relevant SCOTUS cases, please post references.

    37. Re:What? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      So, I downloaded and watched the first Zeitgeist movie last night. Very similar, and markedly different.

      This one started out with religion, describing how many of the religions leading up to Christianity had similar themes, all of them due to astrology: Winter Solstice is December 21st, when the sun is at its low point in the sky; it remains at that position for 3 days, and then rises 1 degree on the 25th; hence, the religious figure is killed, is dead for 3 days, and is then resurrected on the 25th, in many religions. Also the 3 wise men are seen in many religions, and those are the stars on Orion's belt, which when followed point to Sirius, the brightest start in the sky (and also in the East); and when following all four of them to the horizon, they point at the spot that the sun will rise.

      Hence why many religions use that similar theme. Christianity followers then remarked on this coincidence, stating that "the Devil placed all those old religions on the planet, to tempt us."

      Then it goes into the banking system, and how all four of the major wars this century were created by international bankers, who are then able to sell both the bombs and the rebuilding loans -- to both sides! (Reminds me of a line from Iron Man, the reporter from Vanity Fair answering Stark's "bigger stick" talk: "That's a great line, coming from the man selling the sticks.")

      Then it discussed 9/11, and the overwhelming evidence that it was a false flag attack. Including concrete evidence that the other three wars (WWI, WWII, and Vietnam) were not something the people wanted to get in on -- until we perpetrated a false flag attack against ourselves, to rally the public. Sickening, really.

      It brings it all together with such a powerful message that I'm actually rather depressed, bordering on suicidal, because I see no hope for the world with these people in power. Constant war, embedded RFID chips in everyone, and the dumbing down of America so we will be content with our "bread and circuses" which these days are HFCS and reality TV.

      The second movie is much more uplifting, due to the inclusion of the Venus Project stuff -- which, like I said, seems far-fetched, but then so did nanotechnology last century.

      Watch the second one first, I think is the message I'm trying to convey. Oh, and both movies feature George Carlin and Bill Hicks.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    38. Re:What? by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Erm... to whomever marked me troll: Wry humor isn't trolling. Through tongue-in-cheek wording, I was making the point that voting irregularities in Florida were amplified by the Electoral College system, rather than dampened out as shentino posited.

      In the case of Florida in 2000, the electors did not overrule voting irregularities. Rather, in the end, the Supreme Court decided the election.

    39. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dude the voting system has been corrupt for years. these new machines are controlled by the people who make them and the people who actualy count our votes are a private company not regulated by the US government. they are the ones who keep track on election day. bush also won his last election through unfair means. the UN watchers (the people who watch foreign elections and judge if they are honest) said that if it was in any other country they would have blown the whistle and said that the election was bullshit.

  3. To be honest... by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To be honest shouldn't -any- code used to tally votes be released in the public domain for any US citizen?

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:To be honest... by selven · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, we need to have security! How the heck can a system be secure if everyone can see how it works and therefore how to crack it?! This stuff is simply too important to be left in the hands of the average citizen.

    2. Re:To be honest... by sakdoctor · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Is that a joke, a troll, or insurmountable ignorance? I really can't tell.

      Given the total incompetence to date, of any company implementing a voting system, I think open source is the only way it's going to get done right.
      If properly implemented, the voting system can be as secure as the crypto primitives it's built upon.

    3. Re:To be honest... by DarkOx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you being sarcastic? A voting system takes a very finite set of possible inputs, it needs to only give some very specific outputs. I really think there are few excuses for not being able to develop a secure system, secure enough to be totally open despite the value of being able to crack it. Its not like our society can't afford to make the required investment in such a system given the other things our government is spending money doing.

      If it can't be done then electronic voting should not be used at all because it can't be trust worthy without sunlight; and if the argument is it would be broken if exposed to sunlight than I want to know how you know its not cracked/broken already?

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    4. Re:To be honest... by wampus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because open source software is always perfect.

      Flash forward 4 years and 3 forks later, gVote and kVote are largely complete with a few annoying bugs to work around. The two produce incompatible results due to differences in opinion, and the only guy with admin rights to the gVote svn repository had a shitfit and hasn't been reachable for a month.

    5. Re:To be honest... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Have you looked around? Many state governments are on the verge of bankruptcy and don't have the funds necessary to spend on e-voting upgrades. IMHO they should just go back to paper ballots. The old 1990s-era scantron machines seemed to work quite well - rapid counting ability, plus having a physical record that could be counted by hand for later verification. Oh and cheap.

      Oh and before you say the Federal government should pay - (1) They don't have any money either; they just borrow it from China and I think we need to stop doing that. (2) Read amendment 10 - states control elections because we're a confederation just like the EU.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:To be honest... by pearl298 · · Score: 1

      17th amendment is direct election of senators!

      BAH HUMBUG!

    7. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is sarcasm.
      sarcasm |särkazm|
      noun
      the use of irony to mock or convey contempt : his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment. See note at wit .
      ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh,’ in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’ ).

    8. Re:To be honest... by mftb · · Score: 1

      Develop it however the hell you like, pay people if necessary, just release the source code when you're done to prove you did it right.

    9. Re:To be honest... by mftb · · Score: 1

      It terrifies me that so many people are replying to this as if it's a serious comment.
      Slashdot, I am disappointed.

    10. Re:To be honest... by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which means if the 17th was repealed, Senators would be elected by the State Governments, and the States could use the power of the Senate to kick-around the U.S. government when it tries to abuse its power...... similar to how the UK, France, Germany and other members use their power to kick-around the EU government and keep it restrained.

      Example:

      California, Washington, and a bunch of other states legalize marijuana for use by doctors. President Dickhead ignores the laws and arrests CA, WA, and other citizens. California and the other states direct their Senators to censure the president and block all of his legislation from passing. He backs down. The States need to have the power to keep the central government from overreaching.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    11. Re:To be honest... by Zencyde · · Score: 1

      Read amendment 10 - states control elections because we're a confederation just like the EU.

      You know, I think most Americans seem to miss this subtlety of our government.

      --
      What day is it? Could you please tell me?
    12. Re:To be honest... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Actually you'll find him "swimming with the fishes" at the bottom of New York Harbor. Gotta love that NYC political engine.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    13. Re:To be honest... by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Have companies fix it sure but with a few hundred thousand extra eyes on the code than problems intentional or accidental are much more likely to get picked up.

    14. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A simple WHOOSH should suffice.

    15. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which means if the 17th was repealed, Senators would be elected by the State Governments, and the States could use the power of the Senate to kick-around the U.S. government when it tries to abuse its power...

      Or, the voters could get their shit together and vote for decent people in senatorial elections. Most of the candidates come out of state government anyway, and the senators are directly accountable to the people of their state, not the president.

    16. Re:To be honest... by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      I guess Glen Beck started posting to slashdot now. Although I'm suspicious that the first sentence only uses an ! and not all caps, must have an intern typing for him.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    17. Re:To be honest... by mcsporran · · Score: 1

      It's a joke.
      You can tell by the way they use proper sentences, correct grammar, spell words correctly, and are aware of the function of the caps lock.key.

      --
      This is NOT a signature.
    18. Re:To be honest... by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Which means if the 17th was repealed, Senators would be elected by the State Governments, and the States could use the power of the Senate to kick-around the U.S. government when it tries to abuse its power...... similar to how the UK, France, Germany and other members use their power to kick-around the EU government and keep it restrained.

      Example:

      California, Washington, and a bunch of other states legalize marijuana for use by doctors. President Dickhead ignores the laws and arrests CA, WA, and other citizens. California and the other states direct their Senators to censure the president and block all of his legislation from passing. He backs down. The States need to have the power to keep the central government from overreaching.

      Why am I not surprised that someone who wants the 17th Amendment repealed and who thinks that government obstructionism is good for everyone gives this example. You'd have to be using the aforementioned product to think that putting the senate back in the hands of state politicians is great plan. Have you not witnessed the partisanship, corruption, and/or general idiocy involved in picking replacement for Barack Obama, Hilary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy over the past year? This sort of thing once led to Illinois not having a Senator for two years before the Amendment was passed, for crying out loud. Is that what you want a return to as the normal process for picking Senators?

      And if you think in your crazy pro-hemp world that a state is going to block the President on everything just because of pro-pot voters, you're nuts; otherwise, it would be happening right now under the current system because it's voters of those states who both supported pot legalization AND the current people in office. Not to mention that both of those states are blue states and unlikely to think that pot is more important than the President's positions on health care or the economy.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    19. Re:To be honest... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      This sort of thing once led to Illinois not having a Senator for two years before the Amendment was passed, for crying out loud. Is that what you want a return to as the normal process for picking Senators?

      Why would I want to diminish my state's power because Illinois can't get its shit together? That's their problem, not mine.

      The states were effectively neutered by the 17th amendment. The governors have close to zero influence on their state's senators, they're [nearly] all for sale to large national interests.

      What you want to do, at every opportunity, is to push power away from centralization. That's the only way to fight corruption.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    20. Re:To be honest... by shentino · · Score: 1

      The problem with open-source voting machines is that it would pour sunshine on the corrupt contractors making these blasted boxes in the first place.

      Hence, it will be lobbied against.

    21. Re:To be honest... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because open source software is always perfect.

      It's not the point. The important part here is that the source code is available. It doesn't even have to be under a true FOSS license that would permit modification and/or redistribution - all that's needed is the ability to read the full code, build the exact binaries that will be deployed from it, and verify that binaries match. That's it.

      No code that does not satisfy the above conditions should ever be let anywhere near e-voting. Any company complaining about divulging trade secrets can go screw itself (they don't have a God-given right to be a supplier of e-voting machines, and if they want to, they'll have to play by the rules).

      Furthermore, all e-voting code should go through an approval process, which should include line-by-line verification by several independent experts, with results of the study published and available to everyone together with the code. There should also be a period after making the code and study available during which public review is solicited; any input resulting from such reviews is itself published.

      Furthermore, all code should be archived together with election results, in format that is guaranteed to remain readable and accessible for sufficiently long (print-outs sound fine), with public access, so that election results can be re-verified as needed after the elections.

    22. Re:To be honest... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      He's playing devil's advocate.

      (Quite literally, actually, despite being a joke.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    23. Re:To be honest... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      It doesn't surprise me. I've stopped joking on Slashdot without spelling it out. Almost every time I've been modded down, it's because I was joking.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    24. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I really think there are few excuses for not being able to develop a secure system, secure enough to be totally open despite the value of being able to crack it"

      excuses
      1. Hardware at the doping level isn't checked for logic bombs, kill switches or other exploitable logic. (to check this under an electron microscope means destructive reverse engineering. e.g. the chip get's destroyed)

      2. Electronic signals are invisible, and therefore a "broken chain of custody" out of the gate. Nothing software can do can make signals visible, while maintaining "transparency" and and unbroken chain of custody.

      So electronic vote tabulation devices must be outlawed nationally.

    25. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely! I think there's real money to be made by the company or individual that finally produces a voting system worth its size in bytes. Personally, I don't see what's so damn hard about recording a value with an encrypted key that only election officials have access to. Why do we have to go through all of this complicated data management? Each polling site should have a central, encrypted RAID server hooked into all of the voting machines. When a citizen votes, his or her vote is sent to the central RAID where it is protected until it's time to tally the votes. Once the polling place closes, we run a routine on the RAID to tally the results, create a summary file, and burn said file to CD. Voting rep then takes CD, places it in a non-secure (a.k.a. connected to the interweb) machine, and uploads the results file to a central website. I should mention that this summary file should, of course, be heavily encrypted. Now I've got a server sitting out there holding a bunch of encrypted summary files from the election. I bring the central server off-line, then run a central cron job to tally all of the summary files and declare a winner. I'm sure there are still security holes here - but those holes are at maximum, as egregious as holes that exist even with paper ballots. It all seems pretty simple to me, and with public domain code for the whole thing, the public can decide whether or not the level of encryption provided is up to snuff.

    26. Re:To be honest... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Have you not witnessed the partisanship, corruption, and/or general idiocy involved in picking replacement for Barack Obama, Hilary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy over the past year?
      >>>

      Still preferable to a central government that has unchecked power to control all facets.
      That's what the 17th amendment has created - an unrestrained Washington D.C.
      It's comparable to if the EU started regulating the highway speeds in Britain and France.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    27. Re:To be honest... by wampus · · Score: 1

      I can certainly respect that. Everything about the process should be auditable, including any code used along the way. Calling this open source evokes neckbeards, hissyfits, and out of date documentation. Call it auditable source code and I have a feeling there will be more support.

    28. Re:To be honest... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>in your crazy pro-hemp world

      There's nothing crazy about having the freedom to live your life however you want. That's what liberty means. Besides I can not lay my hand on any part of the U.S. Constitution that granted the Congress power to ban a natural plant from existing. Can you? ----- QED the tenth amendment comes into effect - that power is reserved to the 50 states.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    29. Re:To be honest... by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      I'm not seeing how this is a guaranteed win for the people. If senators have the power to keep the central government from overreaching, that isn't really affected by having them elected by the state government instead of by the people -- if anything, state-government election would just increase the stakes of making sure the state government elections were fair and honest (which has not historically been the case; they've certainly been no more honest and representative than direct senatorial election).

      Moreover, while I appreciate the sentiment and agree that it's reasonable for local governments to create more specific subsets of law, there are solid historical reasons the US government has been evolving towards increased centralization of power, from the problems with the Articles of Confederation through the Nullification Crisis and Secession, through slavery, segregation, modern warfare, the Voting Rights Act...

      What's less important to me than what level of government makes the decisions, is that it makes the right decisions. In theory that should be easier with a smaller electorate, but anyone who's ever dealt with a Home Owner's Association can see how well that theory stands up.

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    30. Re:To be honest... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Calling this open source evokes neckbeards, hissyfits, and out of date documentation.

      Not if you don't capitalize "open source" ~

    31. Re:To be honest... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 1

      Nah, that would just make too much, you know, sense.
      Besides, the notion that the integrity of our elections, the most fundamental Constitutional tools by which the citizenry may decide how to govern themselves, should be sacrosanct and guarded against corruption at all costs..., well that's just crazy talk.
      I jest, but only in part. Even if our elections are clean, those we elect often are not, owing their primary allegiances to those who gave them the money required to get elected. The corruption of our government by those interests who are not the electorate, namely powerful corporations, is a grave problem, but one best suited for another forum. Suffice to say, it matters little if the voting machine is rigged when the rigger could just easily buy the influence he needs from whomever is in office.

    32. Re:To be honest... by Taevin · · Score: 1

      I actually agree with you on this point: it's absolutely absurd that government continues to this day to meddle in an individual's private use of any substance (although, hasn't Obama said he's not going to enforce federal drug laws in states that say it's ok?). However, you ignored his point.

      You suggested that if states didn't like the federal government arresting people for drug use, then the state senators could simply block any legislation the President wants to pass. His point was that this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you just block everything, you also prevent stuff that needs to go through which may also be stuff that the state considers more important than letting some people smoke some pot. It might be the right thing to do, but it's also a bit of a gamble. The President might call your bluff and then your senator looks like an ass for not supporting the people.

    33. Re:To be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't need the code to be in the public domain. We only need to require that all voting software be open and inspectable by anyone who wishes to see it. The code could still be copyrighted to encourage efficiency, innovation, etc.

    34. Re:To be honest... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      IMHO they should just go back to paper ballots.

      That's a violation of federal law. There exists the technology to let blind people vote without assistance. It can be done cheaply and easily (that it isn't is a testament to lobbying, not a problem with the technology). And so it is required to do so. I'm always amazed by the huge number of technophobes here. It *should* be cheaper (yes cheaper) and easier and quicker and more secure (yes more secure) to have electronic voting. That's why it's required. IMHO, they should make electronic voting work. Currently it doesn't. Once there's a good system in place, then come back and we can discuss the pros and cons. Comparing the best of one with the worst of the other is a pointless exercise in bashing the system you like least.

    35. Re:To be honest... by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      For a really frightening look at centralization, watch the Zeitgeist movies. I prefer the second as it has a more uplifting ending, but they're both worth the 2 hours each you'll spend. See my posting history for my reaction and some background (very recent, last night and earlier today). These are free to view and download via BitTorrent, as well.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    36. Re:To be honest... by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      To be black-and-white: your rights are sovereign, or they aren't. Halting all legislation until our rights are restored makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, we will see what we see today: "oh, sure, we'll deal with that 'in the future', but we really really need this [war funding/bank bailout/auto bailout/healthcare reform/tomorrow's issue] bill passed.

      PS "Slow down cowboy, it's been 4 minutes" -- WTF? It really only takes 30 seconds to prove I'm not a bot, and to ensure that I can't rapid-post from this IP...

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    37. Re:To be honest... by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      There's nothing crazy about having the freedom to live your life however you want. That's what liberty means. Besides I can not lay my hand on any part of the U.S. Constitution that granted the Congress power to ban a natural plant from existing. Can you? ----- QED the tenth amendment comes into effect - that power is reserved to the 50 states.

      Welcome to the interstate commerce clause.

      Congress has the power to regulate any commerce that crosses state lines. This includes commerce that is local and serves interstate travelers (Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States (1964)), commerce that uses inputs that cross state lines (Katzenbach v. McClung (1964)), and even entirely intrastate commerce that can have an effect on the interstate market and which makes regulation of interstate commerce difficult (Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942) and Gonzales v. Raich (2005)).

      Of particular notes are the last two cases. The first involved a farmer growing wheat on his own land for his own use in violation of laws intended to prevent wheat surpluses (in a New Deal time period where the government was trying to control wheat prices to avoid bankrupting farmers). The second involved medical marijuana grown for personal use. Drawing on the former case in deciding the latter, the court pointed out:

      "The parallel concern making it appropriate to include marijuana grown for home consumption in the [Controlled Substances Act] is the likelihood that the high demand in the interstate market will draw such marijuana into that market. While the diversion of homegrown wheat tended to frustrate the federal interest in stabilizing prices by regulating the volume of commercial transactions in the interstate market, the diversion of homegrown marijuana tends to frustrate the federal interest in eliminating commercial transactions in the interstate market in their entirety. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity."

      People boggle me all the time when they say, "The Constitution doesn't say the government can do [insert very specific thing here]!" and miss the broad and sweeping powers of the Interstate Commerce Clause and the Spending Clause. People need to quit thinking they've noticed some AMAZING oversight that SCOTUS has missed for 200+ years.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  4. So... by w0mprat · · Score: 4, Funny

    grep and find who should have won the election?

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, you can try that....but I think I can save you the time by telling you.....

      It WASN'T you.

      Have a nice day! :)

  5. Was going to post a pseudo-witty comment but... by RichardJenkins · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand
    Workin' in the dark against your fellow man
    But as sure as God made black and white
    What's down in the dark will be brought to the light"

        -Johnny Cash

    Quote taken from the index of http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/. Wishful thinking, but how apt.

    1. Re:Was going to post a pseudo-witty comment but... by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything."

      — Joseph Stalin

      This should be followed by something from Ecclesiastes...

  6. Deprecate strings by cellurl · · Score: 1

    I warned my previous company about "possible use of strings" for just such purpose. You might as well deprecate that puppy!

    1. Re:Deprecate strings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would we deprecate strings? It's a great program and this article proves it.

    2. Re:Deprecate strings by cellurl · · Score: 1

      I guess what I meant was
      strings file | egrep -replace crypt($1)
      Hell, I don't know. Some way to encrypt the strings... (deceptive innovation needed...)

  7. Open Source by bl4nk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really can't see why we can't have a government-commissioned open-source system developed and mandated for use for public voting functions.

    I absolutely hate the thought of my vote being inputted in to a closed magical-mystery box.

    1. Re:Open Source by uberjack · · Score: 1, Troll

      I really can't see why we can't have a government-commissioned open-source system developed and mandated for use for public voting functions.

      You don't? Even after the last administration?

    2. Re:Open Source by Entropius · · Score: 1

      ... because that would be socialistic.

      (or so sayeth the GOP)

    3. Re:Open Source by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The last administration isn't around any more. This administration could set its self apart from the old one by requiring all voting system code be open-sourced. But I agree; the chances of that happening are not any better than under the old overlord.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    4. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theories:

      1) Some people don't rust anything not provided by an expensive vendor.
      2) There's a belief in general that people will find security holes by examining the source and use it to influence the election.
      3) *conspiracy hat on* Maybe someone benefits from being the only one to know about the "special" features hidden in the closed source.

      What I personally feel should be required in all voting software (closed or open) is a vote receipt. The receipt should include date & time, a unique identifier that can't be tied to an individual (but can be tied to your receipt), and your votes.

      Then the detailed election results should be published on the web. Individuals could verify their vote counted by checking their receipt against the published results.

      There is still, of course, a chance of fraud by inserting extra votes, but too much of that could be detected (5000 votes in a district with 4200 registered voters).

    5. Re:Open Source by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah but MY state is run by the Democrats (and has been for almost 60 years). What excuse do they have for not developing open-source voting for Maryland? Oh that's right... same as the GOP... holding onto the monopoly.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:Open Source by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      Vote receipts are a bad idea that most voting systems stay away from because of the potential for vote buying.

      The simple example is that someone with a lot of money to throw around goes into a poor area and offers to pay individuals for every receipt they bring him proving they voted for Candidate A. People go out, vote for Candidate A, bring the receipt back to prove it, and get paid off. It's not hard at all to imagine something like that happening in a place like Afghanistan. And just because it's hard to imagine in the West, doesn't mean it couldn't happen here too.

      It's not that there aren't other ways to abuse the system without receipts, but receipts are just begging for abuse.

      I have seen receipt based systems in the U.S., but they were "under glass" systems. In other words, you could verify that your vote was tallied correctly by seeing the receipt print out in a little window. Then when you opened the door to the booth, it would cut the tape, and your receipt would fall into the bin below to keep your vote secret from the next voter. This was an older system though that probably isn't in use any more. I'm 30 now, and I was in grade school when I saw this. I saw it explained, but never saw it in action, since I was obviously too young to vote myself at the time.

    7. Re:Open Source by Sparky+McGruff · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Open source is probably what Obama had ACORN use in his secret muslin elections in Kenya! He's going to use open source to ban Christmas!

    8. Re:Open Source by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      The simple example is that someone with a lot of money to throw around goes into a poor area and offers to pay individuals for every receipt they bring him proving they voted for Candidate A. People go out, vote for Candidate A, bring the receipt back to prove it, and get paid off. It's not hard at all to imagine something like that happening in a place like Afghanistan. And just because it's hard to imagine in the West, doesn't mean it couldn't happen here too.

      What do you mean it couldn't happen here?

      The only difference is that the politicians here don't need to collect receipts - they just redraw the district lines.

      And they don't use their own money - they use yours.

    9. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really can't see why we can't have a government-commissioned open-source system developed and mandated ...

      I suspect you can see why, but just don't want to. It won't happen for the same reason why your congress allows tagging unrelated laws to a bill to be passed. It is there to be abused, deliberately, intentionally, put there so those in power can abuse it to their advantage.

      I always wonder how much the American public can take before they revolt, or would they quietly submit to such abuse until they lost all the liberty and freedom their forefathers have fought for?

    10. Re:Open Source by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      You don't? Even after the last administration?

      Wait, which state's administration are you talking about?

      Because I hope you do realize that the voting system is largely run by the states with there being limits to what Congress and the FEC can do affect it and that you aren't laying everything at Bush's feet. I mean, he was a terrible President, but it's not like his fingers were in everything.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    11. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really can't see why we can't have a government-commissioned open-source system developed and mandated for use for public voting functions.

      I absolutely hate the thought of my vote being inputted in to a closed magical-mystery box.

      What?!? But... the free market! Go back to Russia you commie!!!

    12. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last administration isn't around any more.

      That's either always correct ("last" means previous) or always incorrect ("last" means latest, i.e. current). Anyway, my state's current governor took office on Jan 1 2003.

    13. Re:Open Source by twostix · · Score: 1

      This administration made a big song and dance about transparency in government and how they'd publish all legislation online at least five days before your congress votes on it.

      Have they even done it once?

      In fact they've been worse on shoving midnight legislation down US representatives throats than the last lot, they weren't even sly about breaking their election promise. Not that you'd ever hear it mentioned in the US news media who seem to be more than a little infatuated.

      They're not going to open up the voting process, in fact I'll take a wild stab in the dark and say in another 4 - 8 years it'll be even worse and more corrupted than it is now, and 8 years after that even worse still. But it'll seem normal to us then, we'll probably all still be sitting here on Slashdot talking about it like we have been for the last 9 years as though ever increasing corruption is a natural law, completely forgetting the time where it wasn't *quite* so bad as it is now and at some level assuming it can just go on for ever.

      So goes the decline of the "post-democracy" west, a decline that is unstoppable at this stage save for a quarter of a century of war that might kick the survivors in the pants about the importance of true representative democracy as it did early - mid last century.

      Without that the proles will never realise their own power and simply will never make enough of a fuss to truly reverse things.

    14. Re:Open Source by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      I have seen receipt based systems in the U.S., but they were "under glass" systems.

      Receipt is probably a misnomer here. Receipt implies something that the client (voter) takes with them. VVPAT (Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail) is a bit clearer, because the purpose is to permit paper based audits, not to allow the voter to prove anything.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    15. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, Open source software. (check)

      Closed source unchecked hardware at the doping level. (fail)

      What good is open source if the hardware has logic bombs or kill switches or extra logic waiting to be used?

    16. Re:Open Source by fgouget · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really can't see why we can't have a government-commissioned open-source system developed and mandated for use for public voting functions. I absolutely hate the thought of my vote being inputted in to a closed magical-mystery box.

      Open-sourcing the code or hardware is no help for the simple reason that on election day you, the voter, cannot verify that the machine in your voting booth is running the open-source code or hardware you verified the day before.

    17. Re:Open Source by Knara · · Score: 1

      National government is like an aircraft carrier. You can't turn it on a dime, even if you desperately want to do so. The current administration is definitely making strides to separate itself in terms of behavior from the previous administration, but it can't do as quickly as our American attention level seems to require.

    18. Re:Open Source by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "The current administration is definitely making strides to separate itself in terms of behavior from the previous administration, but it can't do as quickly as our American attention level seems to require."

      "Separate itself" is much different than "differ from". The Obama administration has been wildly successful at convincing people that it's not the Bush administration - he even convinced the Nobel committee that the separation was hugely significant.

      But when it came time to ACTUALLY correct some of the previous abuses, what's happened? 5 day review? Nope. No earmarks? Sorry, that was the last administration's business, and he's looking forward.

      Obama's like the guy who promises his new girl that he won't beat on her like her previous man, but gives her a few smacks because "the other guy already made the bruises." But he promises the future will be better. We all know how THAT turns out.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    19. Re:Open Source by Knara · · Score: 1

      But when it came time to ACTUALLY correct some of the previous abuses, what's happened? 5 day review? Nope. No earmarks? Sorry, that was the last administration's business, and he's looking forward.

      No earmarks is always something people rant about, but earmarks (and riders, similarly derided) are how the US government has worked since the dawn of the Republic. I'm unconvinced it needs to change.

      5 day review? Every version of every bill is online for people to check out. What good does 5 day review do, anyway? The majority of people aren't smart enough to understand how Congressional legislation is performed, much less smart enough to understand the various versions of bills. Or are you not-so-subtly trying to point out the fact that GOP members of the House and Senate want to have every version of every bill up for public review before a vote (as I said before, they already are), and require another 5 days every time a change is made? Because that's a really, really stupid idea. It would make Congress inoperative in no time flat.

      Actually spend some time looking at what the current administration is working towards (and some time looking at what they've already done -- PROTIP: not everything that an administration does makes headlines), instead of relying on talking heads to make up your mind for you.

    20. Re:Open Source by R2.0 · · Score: 0

      Glad you like earmarks. But you aren't the president. The actual president says he doesn't, and that he would veto bills with earmarks. When given the chance, he did not. His excuse was "That bill is left over from the previous administration. We're more focused on looking forward". So, did he lie during the campaign, knuckle under to congressional and party pressure, or does he actually BELIEVE saying "It's not my fault" is a valid reason?

      The 5 day review was ANOTHER campaign promise - that once a bill was *finalized*, the *final* text would be published for 5 days for public comment before he signed it. These are things Obama said he would do. But when the "Stimulus" bill hit the floor, the Congress was given 24 hours to vote on it, which is because the White House said it was urgent. Likewise, they would not go with the 5 day review because the nation needed it RIGHT NOW!!! So Congress passed the bill on a Friday. But he didn't sign it until Tuesday. Why? It was a 3 day weekend. So apparently the bill was so urgent that it had to be passed without even basic congressional review, but he couldn't stick around Friday night to sign it? Sure - pull the other one.

      As for "The majority of people aren't smart enough to understand how Congressional legislation is performed, much less smart enough to understand the various versions of bills," if I used the same argument in favor of, say, keeping the source code for voting machines closed, I'd be ridiculed. Your contention seems to be that there are even fewer people who can do a text search than parse code. Tell me, what country do you live in?

      My premise is that Obama has been very successful at creating the feeling of change without the substance. If the best his supporters can do is say "talking heads to make up your mind for you", I feel satisfied. Unless, of course, NPR is comprised of talking heads.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    21. Re:Open Source by Knara · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with people not keeping campaign promises that had no grounding in reality.

      I personally voted for Obama, because he was the closest I was going to get someone who lined up with my political and social preferences.

      I also vote knowing that politicians are and always will be constrained by reality, and that they haven't changed since the beginning of the Republic.

      When we start electing wizards and unicorns to office, perhaps my expectations will be closer to yours.

    22. Re:Open Source by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Vote receipts are a bad idea that most voting systems stay away from because of the potential for vote buying.

      The US had open (as in not private) voting for the first 100 years. It worked great. People bought and traded votes, but no more before or after the change. It prevented problems we've had since, like more people voting in an area than there are registered voters (which has happened with both paper and electronic ballots). It was done away with because the right to vote was given to Blacks. The Whites in power would "lose" ballots right in front of the voter, burn the homes of Whites that voted for Black friendly candidates, indimidate, and even kill voters over their votes. Buying? That had nothing to do with moving from open to closed ballots. It wasn't done when the ballots were open. It wasn't done when they were closed. It simply is a non-issue invented by people with an axe to grind and no sense of history.

      "Buying" (in the sense of giving something positive to someone for a vote in their favor) has almost never been done under any system anywhere. To suggest it is an issue always just makes me think that the speaker is an idiot with no idea of what they are talking about. Intimidation (the opposite of vote buying) is common in open and closed vote systems. It is easier and more exact with an open voting system, and would be much more an issue than buying a vote. To bring up vote buying is to completely miss the important issues. You might as well argue over the color of the ballots.

    23. Re:Open Source by BarefootClown · · Score: 1

      The last administration isn't around any more. This administration could set its self apart from the old one by requiring all voting system code be open-sourced. But I agree; the chances of that happening are not any better than under the old overlord.

      He's from Chicago. You'll see open, transparent voting about the same time Earth gets a third moon.

      --

      "Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
      --Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca

    24. Re:Open Source by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      You misunderstood what I said. Re-read it. You'll find that what you wrote is agreeing with what I wrote.

      I'm saying that although it's less likely (or perhaps just less overt), it could happen he west as well.

    25. Re:Open Source by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      It's happened in the U.S., and was once wide spread. This is one of the strongest reasons most strong democracies have a secret ballot now. If I remember my history right, it was a major issue in West Virginia during reconstruction.

      It's happened in Mexico in modern times, and it's one of the big criticisms of the recent election in Afghanistan.

      I don't have citations at the moment as I'm not home, but I'll be happy to provide them tonight when I'm home if you're interested. Of course intimidation happens as well, but vote buying has, and will continue to happen. The best we can hope for is to make it inconvenient enough to not matter on any kind of large scale. But people are creative. I remember a report in which vote buyers were asking for cellphone pictures as proof of Mexicans' votes, but I can't find the article now. Read up on this however.

      I agree 100% that intimidation is a larger problem. But to dismiss vote buying as a problem that "has almost never been done under any system anywhere" is incredibly short sited, and naive.

  8. People are still using Nedit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF?

    1. Re:People are still using Nedit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The primary investigator on the matter felt that it was a good editor for large files; it says so on the wiki.

    2. Re:People are still using Nedit? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with NEdit? It's true I also use gedit, kedit, and medit, but sometimes nedit is the right tool. (I also use kate, and various other editors. Even vi(m). Not EMACS because I dislike their file handling system, but that's a purely personal taste.

      When you're doing pattern matching in an editor (well, certain kinds of pattern matchin) NEdit is the right choice. The others will allow to to eventually craft grammars to handle the patterns, but NEdit lets you build them en-passant.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  9. What? by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 1

    Appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election

    What exactly does that mean?

    --
    Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
  10. Who uses them? by JumperCable · · Score: 1

    What machines & models does Sequoia sell?

    1. Re:Who uses them? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  11. While redacting... by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

    ... to the point of vandalism is a petty crime for an already evil company, using SQL stored procedures to do the tally in a voting machine certainly reaches the 7th inner circle of hell.

    1. Re:While redacting... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful


      votes[candidate]++;

    2. Re:While redacting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so was it Bush++ or Gore-- ?

  12. Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election"

    Which means the uneducated inspecting strings saw things like:

    BAL_ID null
    -- 1 - show candidate on ballot (default)
    -- 0 - remove candidate from the ballot
    -- 2 - don't show candidate on the ballot, but reserve space for her on the layout

    All of which is perfectly benign when voters are not eligible to vote for certain candidates for any number of reasons.

    The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.

    Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Hyperbole much by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1, Interesting

      All of which is perfectly benign when voters are not eligible to vote for certain candidates for any number of reasons.

      Like what ?... Let me guess : no need to show someone that's not supposed to win, for instance ?

    2. Re:Hyperbole much by Senjutsu · · Score: 1

      I agree, the summary and quoted code don't shed any light on the issue, but the big, and possibly illegal, problem is that the databases are heavily self-modifying. Random example:

      /* Table : CONTEST                                              */
      /* Description: Election specific contest. There could be multiple
                  contests per office differentiated by party, Precinct,
                  and Gender.  There are also contests uhat are not for an
                  office such as System Contest (e.g Straight Party) and
                  Proposals. */
      begin
          Exec("
          create table CONTEST
              -- identifer of contest
              CONTEST_ID           T_GLOBAL_ID          identity
              -- identifer of political subdivision
          ,    PSD_ID               T_GLOBAL_ID          null
              --     0 = all, 1=exclude, 2=include
              --    1 = Some voters can vote ONLY for this office
              --    2 =Some voters in the psd cannot vote for the office
          ,    ELIGIBILITY         !numeric(1)           null default 0
              -- if office is precinct level, identifier of contest's precinct
          ,    PRECINCT_ID          T_GLOBAL_ID          null
              -- identifier of proposal in contest
          ,    PROPOSAL_ID          T_GLOBAL_ID          null
              -- Combined from office/proposal name and modifier such as
              --  precinct name or gender
          ,    NAME                 T_STANDARD_NAME      null
              -- If contest is NOT a proposal: reference to the office at
              -- the source of this contest

      etc. The Program seems to have created and destroyed tables, columns, views, etc, on the fly, an incredibly odd practice for data that is meant to be audited.

    3. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the contents of the code may be the least of the significant things this reveals. You are correct that the code above may be perfectly valid, but the real questions are thus:
          1) Does the use of SQL code to tally votes violate FEC rules, which would mean the entire voting system becomes a giant paperweight.
          2) Did Sequoia violate California law by simply damaging the data file rather than redacting it for legitimate trade secrets, in which case they can be sued to hand over the undamaged file and possible by the State as well. Not to mention that the SQL code may well be the trade secrets that they were trying to protect, which leads to questions about their competence in other ways...
          3) And finally, what does the actual code do, and are there any problems with it.

      Note that the function of the code is the last part of this. It may get a lot of the attention, but in many ways it may well be an afterthought when all is said and done...

    4. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No need to show someone for whom the voter is not eligible to for.

      (I assume English is a second language for you, because the statement was perfectly clear the first time).

      Some states have closed primaries. Democrats only get to vote for democrats, republicans for republicans.

      Some people are not voting in their proper polling place and can't vote for the local candidates (because they don't live there).

      I could go on, but I suspect you will have difficulty reading much more thru your tin foil hat.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:Hyperbole much by GryMor · · Score: 1

      Yah, that looks like a normal domain table along with comments as to the meanings of field values... Since the ballot design is part of the database, I would be surprised not to see those.

      Of course, with 800mb to go through, it's possible something less normal is in there.

      --
      Realities just a bunch of bits.
    6. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does it matter to you at all that the presence of this logic in interpreted code (SQL) is a direct violation of federal law?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    7. Re:Hyperbole much by MrMista_B · · Score: 1

      Did you examine the code, or are you making things up?

    8. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. RTFA.

      To quote the next bit:

      "It violates the federal rulebook on voting systems on several levels: the rules require that code be hash-checked to prove authenticity in the field for obvious reasons. If the real working code is buried in with the data, no such hash-checks are possible. The federal rulebook is also clear that code can't be interpreted, apparently to avoid modification "in the field" (generally county or city election offices)."

    9. Re:Hyperbole much by Minwee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.

      You could have kept reading, you know.

      See also the 2002 edition of the "Voluntary Voting System Guide" published by the Federal Election Commission especially this bit in Volume 1:

      Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited [...]

      The FEC standards say "prohibited". They do not say "Any self-modifying, dynamically loaded or interpreted code is only okay if someone who is a really good programmer says it is" or "Interpreted code is okey dokey as long as it isn't called all that often". If the database itself contains application code which modifies the database, then that's a problem. It doesn't matter what kind of code it is or how benign you think it is, it should not be there at all.

      If you would like to share your educated opinion where it matters, feel free to comment in the wiki. That's what it's there for.

    10. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They obviously don't understand much because this database is not corrupt. I just loaded it in a SQL Server database fine. SQL Server 2005.

      There are 88 tables in the database.

    11. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Otr it could just be an install script. Tables don't come out of thin air you know....

    12. Re:Hyperbole much by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I think that's part of the framework used to set up a given ballot, based on the way it looks. In other words - it's used to generate the tables for a specific election, and is not likely dynamically executing during the election itself.

    13. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      That it creates table views on the fly does not make it un-audit-able.

      Table views on the fly will ALWAYS come out the same as long as the inputs are the same. All that is required is that the data that DRIVES the selection and the content of the tables be locked during the election, and till after audit.

      Note: For the record, I personally believe strongly in the paper ballot. But I also know paper ballot boxes get stuffed all the time. Karzi?

      But reading comments out of code (and what you have pasted is clearly comments or aids to setting up an election, not actual election presentation code) is hardly a smoking gun. (You should see some of the comments in my code!!!)

      You've posted nothing more than a description of data elements. A data dictionary with explanatory text.

      You've mistaken documentation for executable code.

      Nothing you've posted supports your assertions.

      There is no possible way to write a general election package that will be configurable for a wide variety of elections and STILL have it all hard coded. It has to be data driven. As long as you can lock both the general code and the data during the election.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    14. Re:Hyperbole much by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It could well be quite reasonable and still be illegal.

      In many states in a primary election you show the voters only the candidates of their own party + non-partisan offices. That's one valid reason. Doesn't mean that doing it that way is legal.

      An interesting question might be "How easy is it to replace those stored procedures with others on election day?". This is the kind of question that has frequently been raised and which I have never heard satisfactory answer to. Only answers that apply to some particular precinct. And I've heard allegations about other precincts that are very different, but not, of course, from anyone who was directly involved.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      I think Number 2 here is the big ticket item.

      SQL code, if locked during the election, is no different than a hard coded program. Don't mistake the container for the content.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    16. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      Yes I did read that.

      I took issue with the second sentence in your quote. That sentence is simply FLAT WRONG, and invalidates the writers point, and pretty much everything else they have to say.

      Code stored in a table can be hash checked. The table can be locked. The table can be hash checked.

      Interpreted has no precise meaning in computer science, or in a court of law.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    17. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not sufficient. My local voting counters (FL, who'd have thunk it), physically lose voting machines for several months and lose all the votes. Great new if you are extreme right cons, not so good if you vote otherwise.

    18. Re:Hyperbole much by ijakings · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesnt matter if its changeable on the fly or not. The law is No interpreted code. Guess what they found? Interpreted code. Ergo, the law has been broken. How much more simply can this be put, that you would get it?

    19. Re:Hyperbole much by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      They handled it badly but it did need to be handled somewhere.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    20. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A compiler translates a source language to a target language, and stops there. Most often this is done to create an executable file. Execution of the file is a separate step.
      An interpreter translates a source language to a target language, and then executes the result (most often machine code).

      The difference between the two in terms of computer science is very clear, and very simple.

      T-SQL, like in the samples given, is interpreted. If you'd like an arbiter on that, google "t-sql interpreted site:msdn.com".

    21. Re:Hyperbole much by redalien · · Score: 1

      "SQL" isn't that scary. Now, if they'd found FORTRAN...

    22. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A compiler translates source language to target language (usually executable machine code) and stops there. It does not execute the code.

      An interpreter translates source language to target language (usually machine code), and executes it.

      You are correct in that (most) languages are not inherently compiled or interpreted since you can do either with them, but claiming that there is no difference between a compiler and an interpreter is simply wrong. Most programmers know this, though I suppose not most lawyers do.

      If the federal law requires there be no interpretation, all code has to be compiled before the election to comply. That is clearly not the case with T-SQL exec statements running dynamically constructed statements.

    23. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The difference between the two in terms of computer science is very clear, and very simple.

      No, sorry, its not that simple.

      You may have written code to Add two data elements AB and CD.

      The compiler will almost certainly point to AB and CD and invoke a runtime library which will interpret your ADD verb for you. This involves determining the type of variables, fetching both conversion to a common type, putting into machine registers, executing the add instruction, converting the sum back to the type consistent with the storage target, then transferring it to that target. At each step of the way there is error checking to be sure the data types are compatible, that they exist, that overflow did not occur and that the target is actually addressable.

      No, it is not clear. No it is not simple. No there is no clear line between compiled code vs interpreted code, and NO there is no common definition of interpreted code.

      I've been messing with computers longer than you have been alive, and I'm here to tell you everything you learned about how things work is a simplification to avoid overwhelming you with the facts.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    24. Re:Hyperbole much by sten+ben · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All computer code not written in binary is interpreted code.

      Isn't that the job of the compiler? To turn the written code into "binary" or rather machine instructions, ergo assembler. You have a point in that all languages are interpreted into machine code, but that is not what interpreted refers to in this case. This is what it refers to.

      Presumably the law is there to make run-time modifications to the code harder, as well as allowing static analysis of binaries. I'm crap at SQL, but AFAIK stored procedures can be replaced at run-time.

    25. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      but claiming that there is no difference between a compiler and an interpreter is simply wrong.

      I never claimed this. I said there is no clear definition.

      That is clearly not the case with T-SQL exec statements running dynamically constructed statements.

      You don't even know what you are looking at.
      It could just as well be the input to a translator that creates the election executable. But it doesn't matter as long as the table is locked at election time. The result is the same.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    26. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 0, Troll

      Show me the section in federal law that cites wiki!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    27. Re:Hyperbole much by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.

      Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.

      I got that impression as soon as I saw they were wrong about the data being "sabotaged" (they didn't know what they were looking at) and they used the phrase "SQL code", when what they really meant was stored procedures. Whether those stored procedures are part of the voting software or can influence the data is another question. They might be used to generate reports or dataset views, or simply used to setup the initial database structure. They might even be looking at the normal default procedures you'd find in any MS SQL database.

      Like what ?... Let me guess : no need to show someone that's not supposed to win, for instance ?

      How about not running in that particular district? Or it's a closed primary and a Democrat should only see the Demcrat candidates.

    28. Re:Hyperbole much by Dahan · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen any interpreted code yet... the excerpt posted appears to be a database table definition. I hope you're not suggesting that ballot definitions can't be stored in a database table.

    29. Re:Hyperbole much by sten+ben · · Score: 3, Informative

      Show me the section in federal law that cites wiki!

      OK, I'll quote this instead:

      "4.2.2 Software Integrity

      Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited, except under the security provisions outlined in section 6.4.e [sic - see note below]. This prohibition is to ensure that the software tested and approved during the qualification process remains unchanged and retains its integrity. External modification of code during execution shall be prohibited. Where the development environment (programming language and development tools) includes the following features, the software shall provide controls to prevent accidental or deliberate attempts to replace executable code: ...

      IANAL, but that seems pretty clear cut. Maybe not in regards to the SQL, but as far as to what they mean.

    30. Re:Hyperbole much by sten+ben · · Score: 1

      The compiler will almost certainly point to AB and CD and invoke a runtime library which will interpret your ADD verb for you. This involves determining the type of variables, fetching both conversion to a common type, putting into machine registers, executing the add instruction, converting the sum back to the type consistent with the storage target, then transferring it to that target. At each step of the way there is error checking to be sure the data types are compatible, that they exist, that overflow did not occur and that the target is actually addressable.

      Yep, and the output of those compiler operations are stored in a binary file with machine instructions, or rather the OS choice of representation of machine instructions (wow! more interpretation!). While we all see your point I believe you, Sir, is missing ours. The law does not consist of ADD, MOV etc. It is concerned with semantics. A very reasonable meaning of section 4.2.2 in the Voting System Standards Volume I is that they are referring to code being interpreted at runtime by other means than the CPU. Such as a VM, or an interpreter, that is, machine instructions that take non compile-time code (regardless of format) and executes it. Yes, that means you won't be able to bundle gcc or python on your voting box, it also means that you can't write your own little interpreter and include it. If you like you could probably argue that the text states that all code on the system has to be statically linked as well.

      A less reasonable interpretation of the law is that no code can run on the system, 'cause if we're splitting hairs, all code can be described as interpreted

      I've been messing with computers longer than you have been alive, and I'm here to tell you everything you learned about how things work is a simplification to avoid overwhelming you with the facts.

      You seem to be having a bad day Sir, may I suggest a massage or a sauna?

    31. Re:Hyperbole much by mctk · · Score: 1

      Car analogy?

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    32. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That CREATE statement doesn't appear to be embedded in a procedure so I'm going to assume it probably came from a script used to generate the initial database structures when starting from an empty database.

    33. Re:Hyperbole much by theTerribleRobbo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From the site:

      UPDATE 10/20/09 5:45pm Pacific Time: It appears the files were NOT VANDALIZED and will open in MS-SQL Server 2005. It also appears they did redact "code" to some degree. I'm still not clear on why there are thousands of lines of source code still left in there. I'm working on scoring a copy of SQL Server 2005 ASAP so I can look for myself. Check the discussion areas to follow along in realtime.

      Interesting.

    34. Re:Hyperbole much by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 1

      Quoting:
      ---
      The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.

      Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.
      ---

      And you're right. Except first, this appears to be an open and shut violation of FEC rules - I'm not an SQL programmer BUT I know that rulebook. And based on the *volume* of code present, there's a lot of calculation going on.

      Yes, it's an open question as to what the security implications are. But at least we have a chance at evaluating those implications publicly.

      And public study of this stuff is the only sane and responsible thing to do - EVEN if it reveals our own warts.

      Hell, ESPECIALLY if it reveals our own warts.

      Jim March

    35. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been messing with computers longer than you have been alive

      I can tell.

    36. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      And you're right. Except first, this appears to be an open and shut violation of FEC rules - I'm not an SQL programmer BUT I know that rulebook. And based on the *volume* of code present, there's a lot of calculation going on.

      But is it the code that runs actual Voting or is it merely the code that defines races?

      The people posting this had no idea what it was and alleged sabotage when they simply did not know or bother to check what platform this database was designed for: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1411885&cid=29817691

      Yet, you are willing to believe them and immediately assume a conspiracy and a massive violation of FEC rules?

      Why is that?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    37. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nice one jackass, but I'm not a lawyer, I'm a programmer. It should be pretty goddamn clear to any novice that a stored procedure in MS SQL Server, which is what we're dealing with here, is most definitely interpreted code. The law clearly states that interpreted code is not allowed because of the obvious fact that it can easily be changed after the certification. They state that once the software is certified that there are no more compilers or linkers allowed in the onboard software and that the binaries should be able to have their checksum validated in the field to ensure it's the same software that was certified. Especially when the SQL code to create those same stored procedures ships with the product, as if the database itself is set up in the field.

      Now, I'm not a lawyer, but that seems pretty goddamn clear to me that a stored procedure in SQL Server does not meet those criteria.

      But, and I'm being honest here, I really want to hear your opinion on the matter, since mine doesn't matter, and is based on scary capital letters.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    38. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I'm suggesting that it doesn't satisfy the law to include code that gets executed without being able to have its checksum verified to ensure it's the same code that was certified to run. That's what I'm suggesting, and stored procedures inside SQL Server do not satisfy that requirement.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    39. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it matter to you at all that the presence of this logic in interpreted code (SQL) is a direct violation of federal law?

      Since his post was addressing the actual effect of the statements, and not whether or not they should be there in the first place, then no, for the purposes of this sub-thread it does not matter.

      In addition, because those running the analysis obviously don't understand jack or shit, there is a possibility that the "interpreted statements" exist only in areas which are allowable under law. Personally I doubt it, but since the analysis is crap, the conclusion that those statements shouldn't be there is also crap. I will concede that it certainly warrants more investigation, but I've always been of the opinion that nothing about an election should be closed to public scrutiny, all the way from the layout of each polling station to the blueprints and source code of the booths and tabulating machines.

    40. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      You have no knowledge that this code shipped with the voting station. You are simply parroting assumptions.

      WinEDS is used to Set up and define elections but thats NOT what runs on the voting machines.

      Its pretty clear to me from all the code I've read at the site that this is the race definition software these fools are looking at and screaming FEC violation.

      They had no clue what kind of database they were looking at and even went so far as to alleged fraud upon the court for intentionally corrupting the database, when it was all along perfectly fine MS SQL.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    41. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not familiar with the law in question, but isn't all code interporeted by the CPU anyway? At some level, interpreted vs. native (and code vs. data, for that matter) are really arbitrary discretizations imposed on a continuum, and either "no interpreted code" is a serious oversimplification of the law, or the law sucks burro testicles, so I don't give a bat's ass whether anyone follows it.

    42. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't even the SELECT or INSERT statement disqualified then? I guess we'll have to go back to pen and paper...

    43. Re:Hyperbole much by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 5, Informative

      First, I'm the guy that built that wiki page.

      Second, "code that defines races" can be used to alter results. I have a lot of experience playing with Diebold databases because we've had access to those since 2003 when Diebold left an FTP site open. If you swap the candidate ID numbers between two candidates in the Diebold database (run in MS-Access), you'll flip the election. In a heartbeat.

      It *appears* there's code present in this Sequoia database to do the same thing. Note the word "appears". The best way to find out, and the most MORAL way, was to put it up for public review.

      Risking exposure of our technical warts, sure. Still worth it. Check the discussion areas at the wiki - we're learning a hell of a lot, very quickly.

      But yes, it's true: I don't know MS-SQL, and nobody else at EDA does either. So we were faced with a choice: find a few people who did know it, pay 'em a bunch of donated money to write a formal report behind closed doors, or do a public review and exam even if that means exposing any mistakes we make, knowing they'll be caught pretty damn quick.

      Which was better?

    44. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Exactly.

      However, the tinfoil hat army that pummeled me in this thread and nodded me "Politically Incorrect" will never see that and you can rest assured that it will be political dogma for years that Sequoia was caught red handed by a guy who's only skill was writing a wiki page.

      Thanks for the heads up.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    45. Re:Hyperbole much by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Which was better?

      Clearly stating that you're not really qualified enough to judge on the matter beforehand.

    46. Re:Hyperbole much by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Does it matter to you at all that the presence of this logic in interpreted code (SQL) is a direct violation of federal law?

      There's no interpreted code (as in, T-SQL stored procedures) in that database, so debating whether T-SQL is interpreted or not is irrelevant.

      The file is a backup of a MSSQL database. When restored, it doesn't have any stored procedures in it, only tables. Text for the stored procedures remains in the dump because they were there, but were dropped, and database file pages on which they were stored weren't cleared (which is the way DBs usually operate).

      Apparently, the scripts were there to roll out the database in the first place, and they delete themselves as part of the roll-out. Thus, the database that is used when the system actually runs doesn't have any "interpreted logic" remaining in it - just a bunch of tables, which are presumably used by some other code.

    47. Re:Hyperbole much by twostix · · Score: 1

      "Tin foil hat".

      No group has ever tried to steal an election in any country in the history of the world, least of all America.

      Thank god for hyper rational individuals like you who keep the hysterical dimwits who audaciously think that anybody might ever try such a thing under control.

      What would we do without your superior intellect to protect us from our pathetic selves.

    48. Re:Hyperbole much by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Does it matter to you at all that the presence of this logic in interpreted code (SQL) is a direct violation of federal law?

      But your opinion seems based on scary capital letters.

      SQL stands for Structured Query Language. It is an abbreviation of a proper name. It's supposed to be in all caps. You'll only see it in small caps when someone is being informal or lazy.

      They're not "scary capital letters" just because you're frightened by them.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    49. Re:Hyperbole much by Nikker · · Score: 1

      The main reason for submitting binary code is for accountability, if it is binary code it ensures a limited list of attack vectors but having your commands generated at run-time is that if one is created for each user of the system you have that many opportunities for improper access whether intentional or not. When you scale to large numbers of individual inputs you are almost guaranteed to have one exploit a bug inadvertently and possibly make further damage to the system. At least a binary with a logging facility would be able to raise flags to the attention of a/the admin where as most interpreted coded will just return a true/false response which is very particular of SQL servers, so if I happen to change the SQL statement I can unintentionally do anything from cast an improper vote to causing damage to tables which is bad since I am effecting my vote as well as yours and others. This is the reason for the laws, regulations and this thread :)

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    50. Re:Hyperbole much by Leafheart · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why do you need 88 tables for one voting??

      --
      --- "When you gotta do something wrong. You gotta do it right. (Fighter)"
    51. Re:Hyperbole much by groomed · · Score: 1

      But yes, it's true: I don't know MS-SQL, and nobody else at EDA does either. So we were faced with a choice: find a few people who did know it, pay 'em a bunch of donated money to write a formal report behind closed doors, or do a public review and exam even if that means exposing any mistakes we make, knowing they'll be caught pretty damn quick.

      False dichotomy, based on the unproven assumption that there was anything nefarious going on that required urgent exposition.

      You have found Jesus Christ in a potato chip.

    52. Re:Hyperbole much by aGuyNamedJoe · · Score: 1

      A compiler translates source language to target language (usually executable machine code) and stops there. It does not execute the code.

      An interpreter translates source language to target language (usually machine code), and executes it.

      ...

      If the federal law requires there be no interpretation, all code has to be compiled before the election to comply. That is clearly not the case with T-SQL exec statements running dynamically constructed statements.

      Unfortunately, the hardware is an interpreter for "machine code". Thus, any code that actually accomplishes anything is illegal, as it is interpreted code.

      Not to be pedantic, or anything...

    53. Re:Hyperbole much by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      There is no possible way to write a general election package that will be configurable for a wide variety of elections and STILL have it all hard coded. It has to be data driven.

      I agree that it must be data driven. I strongly disagree that an SQL database is a proper mechanism for doing this in a voting machine. Here's how I think it should be done:

      The ballot should get defined once at the election headquarters, signed with an asymmetric key, and then loaded at all the precincts from (effectively) read-only storage. Voting records should go into a time-stamped log, perhaps signed by the voting station in a similar manner. Each signed record can include integrity checks, such as the current running total of votes and the expected number of records before it to detect missing records. Actions such as "Load Ballot," "Begin Dry Run," "End Dry Run," "Begin Live Election," "End Live Election" and so on should also appear in this log so that votes are recoverable if someone tries to throw the election by "restarting" the election day. Logs should be tallied both remotely and locally to provide an additional layer of auditability, just like syslogd does in UNIX, with one difference: The voting machine and its remote loggers both need to verify each others' identity with each log update. One possible architecture is to have each machine log remotely at several other machines in the same precinct as well as at least one machine upstream. The logging topology should be part of the signed (and therefore certifiable) ballot definition, with some provision for failing nodes--ie. multiple lists of the form "Must connect to at least 2 machines from this set," "Must connect to at least 1 machine from this set," "Must connect to at least 3 machines from this set."

      I don't see anything that requires the generality and flexibility (and thus mutability and general tamper-ability) of a generic SQL database. The data that drives the election should be fixed and immutable (and therefore easily certified) well ahead of opening the precincts, and the voting logs are linear and write-once, like a cash register tape. The tally code upstream might also insert the logs into a database for analysis purposes, but the tallies themselves never need to be in a database--they're just totals. The database should never be part of the election process directly. If it's there, it's just there to make it easy to run fun, informative queries that are a complete adjunct to the actual vote tallying process.

      If the voting records are only in something as generic as an SQL database, what stops uncertified software from changing the behavior of the system by directly updating the database? You really want a write-once log at each level whose integrity is ensured at every step by the format. If the integrity is ever compromised (either intentionally or by a hardware failure), it should be possible to recover as many votes as possible, minimizing the number of spoiled ballots.

    54. Re:Hyperbole much by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Whether you realize it or not, you pointed to the real problem: With a generic SQL database backend, what stops uncertified code from modifying it outside the rules of the election? Even if the election-driving code is fixed in ROM, if you can re-run the install script and wipe the database, you can throw away an entire machines' vote totals. That's bad.

      Here's how I'd go about voting machine architecture.

    55. Re:Hyperbole much by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      My questions are: Why aren't ballots immutable on the voting machines, perhaps signed cryptographically to ensure no tampering? Why are votes even logged in a generic database, rather than written as signed records to something flat, both locally and remotely? Everything seems so easily tampered with from what little I've seen. I'd prefer a more airtight approach.

    56. Re:Hyperbole much by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      That's how I'd approach an electronic voting system. All that said, though, I'm not sure "throwing technology at it" is the right thing. Paper ballots with optical scanning and random auditing under multiparty review is likely a better route to fast results and reasonable certainty. The number of paper ballots examined in the audit can go up as the election gets closer to a tie.

      Then again, look at the Franken vs. Coleman debacle. How would this have turned out differently (if at all) if the voting systems in the precincts had electronic voting in a system similar to the above? Would we still have write-ins for Lizard People?

    57. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's something like asking why Amarok needs 20-some tables to store a list of songs... Presumably the purpose of the 88 tables would be apparent if you were more familiar with the problem domain.

      Just off the top of my head: Sure, you want to store Votes. And those need to be associated to individual Voters, as well as the chosen Option for each Item on a Ballot. Each Item will be either an ElectedPosition or an Issue, and each Option will be either a Candidate or an IssueResponse. You're going to want to store the VotingLocation, which needs to be associated with the right Precinct, SchoolDistrict, Senator/RepConstituency, City, and County (and maybe other designations) so that you can present the correct set of positions and issues. You'll also need some sort of interface for Administrators, and you'll need to Log what they do for auditing purposes.

      That's at least 17 tables for starters, and that's not even touching ballot formatting, tabulation, alternate audio/image versions, text translations, etc. 88 tables is not unreasonable, if the schema needs to cover every voting scenario.

    58. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      You have no knowledge that this code shipped with the voting station. You are simply parroting assumptions.

      In other words, I am not giving Sequoia the benefit of the doubt, and you're right, I'm not. They're a shady company and I don't trust them and, yeah, I'm not very inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. A jury can do that.

      What I do know is that it was this code that Sequoia was trying to conceal from the public, and that right there doesn't give me a lot of faith that they've actually got a good, competent system that I just haven't seen yet. Sounds more like they know their system isn't up to par and they don't want to get called on it, but it looks like they're about to. I don't think there's necessarily any malevolence, but there sure as hell is incompetence. A single-user, single-threaded number counting application does not need a dedicated database with stored procedures to do the counting.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    59. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      If that were true that changes a lot. At this point I'm not really inclined to give Sequoia the benefit of the doubt though. If they had a good, competent, working system, they should have no problems showing it off.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    60. Re:Hyperbole much by sjames · · Score: 1

      I can think of no case where I would be eligible to vote for only a subset of candidates for a particular position (which the code appears to support). If you don't live where a particular local position is up for election, then that whole election is unavailable to you, not just a few of the candidates.

      The best approach is to show those as grayed out so voters can see that it exists and protest if they are, in fact, eligible to vote on that item. It should also be all or nothing. Either that election is enabled or grayed out. The program logic should have no path that allows only some candidates to be disabled for the election.

      No tinfoil hat required, simple human error could as easily screw things up unless the software is set up to make the screwups apparent and to not support invalid conditions.

    61. Re:Hyperbole much by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      > stored procedure in SQL Server does not meet those criteria. ... So I am guessing that you also consider Views interpreted code, as they are representations of interpreted code?

      How about stored procedures that implement individual SELECT or UPDATE operations?

      How about direct SQL operations (sending the procedure to the database to be operated there)?

      At what point do you have to forgo SQL entirely? At what point is "execute an SQL command" (at base, a simple select command) NOT an action interpreted by the SQL engine?

      No, really. You're a programmer. You've drawn a line somewhere. I'm providing examples closer and closer to the read/write head. Where is your line? Where was the line FIRST overstepped?

    62. Re:Hyperbole much by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      As I noted in a previous comment, there is a lot of frothing-at-the-mouth about "interpreted code" in the database. You declare you don't know MS-SQL, perhaps some of the other commenters could answer this.

      I would appreciate people pinpointing what portion of SQL usage does not involve interpreted code.

      Code I work with does simple queries directly, and embodies more complex queries as stored procedures. Both go through the same engine, so how can one be "interpreted" where the other is not? At some level, ANY use of the SQL engine would seem to require use of the interpreted SQL language.

      I don't think the question changes if the issue is not "interpreted code", but instead "... is in the database", as an application can write those procedures at run time if needed, and drop them during a clean-up.

      Given this, what would need to have been done differently, in order to still use an SQL engine yet not fall prey to interpreted or compiled code issues?

    63. Re:Hyperbole much by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I was actually thinking about this in the shower today, and decided that even sending a string of SQL to the database is not allowed. That string could theoretically be intercepted en-route and modified.

      The thing is that a voting machine should really be dead simple. There's no reason at all to require that each machine have a dedicated SQL Server to store everything in (and transmitting live results to a remote server is obviously verboten). This is a single-threaded, single-user application we're talking about here. It doesn't need a database, it can very well store all results in a file.

      So yes, virtually everything you can do with a database, or at least Microsoft SQL Server, I don't believe would be allowed, or should be allowed if it is. It's simply not necessary, and over-complicates the simple task that a voting machine needs to perform.

      Databases are great, they make a lot of applications a lot more simple and efficient. This is an application that is already simple, adding a database just complicates it, and efficiency isn't even an issue because you can quite happily update a counter in a text file with a 286 and not have any problems. When we're talking about the integrity of the voting system in this country, I think less is more. Take out unnecessary complexity, make sure all code can have its hash calculated and compared easily in the field, and everyone's happy.

      There's no reason to set up views, stored procedures, triggers, or sending commands to a third-party piece of software. We're counting up votes here. This isn't rocket surgery.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    64. Re:Hyperbole much by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      > by other means than the CPU

      Well, I suppose there's always a GPU somewhere... (rimshot)

      But really. You're talking about an SQL database. For it to be useful, you have to issue queries. Queries composed in the Structured Query Language, and by nature are interpreted.

      Are you saying that SQL should not be used?

    65. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know that they are stored procedures and not simply static SQL strings used in prepared statements?

    66. Re:Hyperbole much by Leafheart · · Score: 1

      That's at least 17 tables for starters, and that's not even touching ballot formatting, tabulation, alternate audio/image versions, text translations, etc.

      All things that shouldn't be on the database. And another thing, it shouldn't be completely generic. There is a problem of course with voting for many different things together on the same day. That way you can't prepare and hash the system to verification.

      --
      --- "When you gotta do something wrong. You gotta do it right. (Fighter)"
    67. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      I can think of no case where I would be eligible to vote for only a subset of candidates for a particular position (which the code appears to support). If you don't live where a particular local position is up for election, then that whole election is unavailable to you, not just a few of the candidates.

      Read the rest of the thread and you will find that your inability to think of such a case in no way impacts the reality of such cases existing.

      Many states have closed primaries. You can neither see nor vote for the candidate from the other party.

      Many states have laws that you can vote in any polling place. So if you happen to be visiting relatives out of town on election day you can walk into any polling place and vote a questioned ballot, and would not be presented with local races, but could still vote for state wide or national offices.

      And many elections include issues of local improvement districts (LIDS) which do not always match precincts perfectly.

      You see, you didn't have to think that hard to come up with a case did you?

      But you miss the point entirely. The database snippits shown were NOT voting machine code, but rather election definition code, used to define races, and customize ballots for each precinct.

      The voting machines themselves don't even need to run sql, or windows, and the vast majority of them have anemic processors incapable customizing ballots on the fly.

      Those that do, and those that might arrive in the future may have the capability to have you swipe your voter card and have a ballot presented that, while still not modifiable in that machine, would be selected for your specific residence address, regardless of where you are voting.

      Regardless, what was posted was election definition database snippits, not election execution code.

      This is why this "code review" is pretty much a witch hunt by unskilled people who make accusations based on stuff they don't even understand.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    68. Re:Hyperbole much by sjames · · Score: 1

      Many states have closed primaries. You can neither see nor vote for the candidate from the other party.

      I am well aware of that. Read MY statement again. I may not be allowed to vote in both the Democratic and Republican race, but there exists no case where I am permitted to vote for only a subset of candidates in a particular race. That is, for example in the democratic primary with 4 candidates (presumably all democrats!), there is no case where I may only vote for a or b while others are permitted to choose c or d as well IN THAT RACE.

      The way to avoid that sort of thing is to show races I may not vote in as grayed out (no, there is no case where the choices are secret, candidacy is public information) rather than simply not there and to have no way to gray out an individual candidate in a race.

    69. Re:Hyperbole much by icebike · · Score: 1

      The way to avoid that sort of thing is to show races I may not vote in as grayed out

      And answer 10 thousand questions from little old ladies as to why they can't vote on some of the races?

      You must be out of your mind.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    70. Re:Hyperbole much by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's better than a Constitutional crises!

    71. Re:Hyperbole much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you swap the candidate ID numbers between two candidates in the Diebold database (run in MS-Access), you'll flip the election. In a heartbeat."

      If that didn't occur it would be a bigger problem, wouldn't it?

      And I presume there are audit logs..

    72. Re:Hyperbole much by countach · · Score: 1

      Even if it did not have interpreted code, mere use of an SQL database ALLOWS you to insert triggers and various stored procedures that could influence the election. It doesn't seem useful to merely ban interpreted code. You need to ban INTERPRETERS.

    73. Re:Hyperbole much by countach · · Score: 1

      That doesn't change anything unless they somehow disabled triggers and stored procedures in the database.

  13. you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    crypto primitives relies on a strong link between 2 ends. voting explicitly implies discarding the identity of the voter, hence the whole link thing breaks. If you maintain the link, you know who voted for whom : that's not a good idea at all to preserve democracy. If you discard the link, you have *no way on earth* to actually prove something hasn't been rigged somewhere.

    1. Re:you're wrong. by jonbryce · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How about this?

      You select your candidate / party / referendum option on screen.
      The computer prints out a ballot paper and records your vote.
      You put the ballot paper in the ballot box.
      The returning officer selects a sample of ballot boxes at random and checks them to the computer.

    2. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I've never seen the necessity to complicate things any further than paper, pencil, double physical count. Cheap, no machines involved, fast. On a national election down here (about 15 million voters), voting booths close at 6pm and results are known nation wide right on time to open the 8pm evening news.

    3. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good start--but that only checks that the computer can remember to lie correctly. How do you check that your vote was added into the final count?

    4. Re:you're wrong. by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      You have a list of results by ballot box adding up to the total result for the election.

      You select some of these ballot boxes and check that the figures on the screen are the same as what's in the box.

      Optionally, you let the candidates chose a selection of boxes they want to have checked - they can pick ones where they think there might be problems or they got less votes than they expected.

    5. Re:you're wrong. by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      That's what we have in Britain, but the polls close at 10pm (or 9pm for local elections) and you generally don't know the result until early the following morning, unless you live in Sunderland South.

    6. Re:you're wrong. by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Our polls are typically open until 8 p.m. California time, which adjusting for time differences == 11 p.m. Washington D.C. time. So the results wouldn't be known until early morning (~1 a.m.) the next day.

      Americans won't stand for it. They want to know NOW damnit, not tomorrow.

      Of course in the old days, elections used to last much longer. In the 1800 election the result was not known until almost four months later (the Congress chose Jefferson(D) over Adams(F)). I think if our ancestors could wait that long, then WE could wait a few days.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:you're wrong. by selven · · Score: 1

      Electronic voting has the (yet unrealized since it interferes with the corporate vision of electronic voting as a profit powerhouse) potential to be much cheaper and gives the results in 0 minutes rather than 120.

    8. Re:you're wrong. by Idiomatick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The US is spread across multiple time zones so it matters even less. Plus even if it was an hour faster God keep your pants on people. This is a big deal, I'd be fine with a day of wait if the results are accurate.

    9. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. And that doesn't really change with electronic voting. At some point you have to trust the system and the people running it.

      If, at the end of the night, the poll workers dump the pen and paper ballots in the trash and replace them with fakes, you're just as bad off as if they rigged electronic machines.

      I think too many people on slashdot are being paranoid just for the sake of being paranoid.

    10. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      Quicker : maybe. But most of the times, out the voting booth polls are accurate enough to feed the media frenzy until the real results are known.

      Cheaper : I really, really doubt it since to properly secure any e-voting process, you need to back it up on a paper trail of sort, which consumes as much ressources as a full paper vote. You still need officials, party representatives, administrative clercks, rooms, etc. etc.

      Finally, what's 120 min compared to 4 years of office time, really ?

    11. Re:you're wrong. by v1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've actually put some thought into this and I think I have an idea that could work. It could provide accountability, although not necessarily in a provable form, but at least to let the individual voter know if their vote was lost or changed.

      When you vote, you can enter TWO votes. The first is your actual real it-counts vote. The second is a made up vote. It's totally optional, but lets you enter a second vote different than your first. One is vote A and one is vote B, and you pick which (A or B) is counted. When you leave the booth you get a receipt with a url and a long hashed ID number for your vote(s). If you chose not to enter a second vote, the second vote is randomly selected based on statistical averages of recent votes.

      You can go home and get online and go to the govt website and enter your hash id. It will ask you if you want to see A or B. You pick one, and it shows your votes. You CANNOT look at your other vote. (it only lets you look at one vote per ID, you can go back later and see A again, but never look at B once you've looked at A or vice-versa) Important: it will NOT tell you if the vote you are looking at is the vote that counts or is the dummy.

      This allows you to go into the system later and see that your vote was not lost or changed. It can't tell if the counter/dummy was toggled but if the dummy is statistical average of recent votes in that booth then the ability to do any heavy fraud by dummy swapping is minimized. If you are more concerned about swapping than being coerced, then you can just make both of your votes the same so a swap won't matter.

      But it also prevents selling of your vote, or coercion. Lets say your boss says you WILL be voting for Kodos this year. OK go into the booth and put in your real vote, and then your alternate vote for Kodos. The only thing that puts any teeth in someone being able to sell their vote or coerce a vote is being able to prove who you voted for. So if you are forced to show your vote later, do the lookup in front of them but for the dummy vote. To prevent the possibility of them simply asking to see BOTH your votes to make sure they were both for who they wanted, you can only look at the A or the B ever. This makes it impossible to prove to an individual that you voted a certain way.

      If there's a major cry of fraud, it's possible for the system to be queried and compared later to look for patterns.

      I'd like to hear everyone's devil's advocate on this idea. Rip it up! (or improve it?)

      The only downside is its a tad convoluted. But I maintain that people that can't deal with even slightly complicated voting processes have no business casting a totally uneducated vote.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    12. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do we have these at all? the failure of the 2000 Floria Vote.
      Technology will save us again. Or not.... again.
      If they pencil out the circle, or erase, or X, or check, what was the voter intent.

      Is badly written software on an insecure OS, operated by people who may or may not be computer illiterate better?

      In New York we have the Old mechanical lever machines. harder to con.

    13. Re:you're wrong. by SydShamino · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are required to give your hash code to your boss. HE looks up your vote and picks A or B. 50-50 chance he picks the fake one and you live. 50-50 chance he picks the real one and you lose your job.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    14. Re:you're wrong. by N3Roaster · · Score: 1

      The big flaw I see here is that someone doing the coercion could insist that they choose A or B before the person who cast the vote has a chance to lock out the real vote. In that case the coercer has a 50% chance of seeing the real vote instead of the vote for Kodos. This is better than the coercer being able to see the true vote 100% of the time, but it is far worse than the coercer not being able to see the vote at all.

      --
      Remember RFC 873!
    15. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Doesn't work like that, at least where I live. In my place, you can come in to check if the see-through box is empty and sealed before the voting begin. Then you have parties representatives that take turn to check the whole process during the day (and keep an eye on each others as well as looking after election judges), and finally, the public is much welcomed to come back (or even stay the whole day, if you prefer so) and help count the ballots at the end of the day. The result is then phoned at the town house, where all results for the town are tallied on a paperboard in front of the public. Through some administrative layers, it climbs up through counties and districts up to the national level. Nothing is ever done behind closed doors ; anybody has a right to attend every step physically, in person. In the end, it's a giant peer-reviewed open-source process that's happening under the very eyes of everybody. In the morning, through local newspapers, you can break down the full result down to every single voting place in the whole country.

    16. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting Alaska and Hawaii.

    17. Re:you're wrong. by qw0ntum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a really interesting idea, and I can tell it is well thought out. However, I think it wouldn't work primarily because of its complexity. It's already bad enough for a lot of people to have to select multiple checkboxes in different categories for different elections ("do I select one for each council seat?" "can I vote for President and mayor?"). I think the act of voting can really be no more complicated than picking a box in order for people (even smart people) to not get confused.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    18. Re:you're wrong. by Wyzard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Americans won't stand for it. They want to know NOW damnit, not tomorrow.

      I don't think the American public would really be all that upset if the election results didn't come in until the next morning. I suspect it's actually the news media that wants the results ASAP, in order to get everyone watching the election day evening news so that they can charge more for ad space.

    19. Re:you're wrong. by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      That's more confusing than BC-STV.

      And it doesn't address the main issue that FPTP voting can get someone into office with under 25% of the popular vote. :P The whole system is flawed and needs to be redone - but finding the right way of doing it is the challenge.

      Voting machines should definitely be open-source, and should not be depending on databases like MySQL... on the server end, they need a DB with hardened source code and a limited feature set. I mean, all it has to do is tie a single number to an account/SIN and locked it in, so just about every DB out there is overkill and just opens up the possibility of exploits.

    20. Re:you're wrong. by v1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good catch, that's the sort of thinking I was hoping to hear from.

      OK then one more tweak. The receipt you print in the booth can either be your real or your dummy vote. You pick just before you leave. So if you are being coerced, you can pick the dummy receipt but if you want to watch over your vote you pick the real receipt to take home.

      So in this case you don't get an A/B choice when you get home and punch in the URL. It immediately shows a vote, either the dummy or the real, whichever you elected to get the receipt for.

      Are we bulletproof yet? That doesn't look like it adds any real complexity to what I'm trying to keep to a bare minimum.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    21. Re:you're wrong. by Lars512 · · Score: 1

      Even if you choose to look at A afterwards, and you originally asked for A to be counted, you still don't know that the machine didn't count your dummy vote B instead as the real one. I don't think that this circumvents the problem. Malicious software could simply flip people's "real vote" from A to B or vice versa, depending on the options involved, and you'd never know.

    22. Re:you're wrong. by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What difference does it make how quick the counting is? No matter how fast you count, the officials will still get sworn in on the same date ~2 months later.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    23. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One reason to have voting machines is to have accessibility features to allow those who do have the seeing or motor faculties to mark a paper ballot with a pencil the ability to still vote in private.

    24. Re:you're wrong. by spyowl · · Score: 1

      Government tracking of who voted how is a bad idea in general. If you get a hash that identifies you and tracks your vote in the database. Later if the database is questioned for any reason, anyone looking into the data can find out how you voted. The data would also be available for sale under the table, and it's just asking for trouble in general.

      The way it works now and the way it should work is when you vote, your vote enters the pool of other votes and can never ever be tied back to you in any way.

    25. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, because fraud has never occurred with paper ballots.

      (captcha: honest)

    26. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a pretty good idea. I don't think it works though except to assure that fringe candidates are granted a few votes (which the powers-that-be would be wise to do anyways). Consider the simple two party case. First, we can ignore the people that cast both ballots one way or the other: they'll pretty much balance and besides how are they going to prove that they did when the system specifically prevents them from proving that. So we know that a sufficiently large fraction will cast a real ballot for one and the fake for the other. Even if your method prevents the election software from changing the ballots there is nothing stopping it from changing which ballot counts. The only way to prevent this is for the voter to cast both ballots the same way at which point there are enough of those people that we have to complicate the algorithm a bit to handle them. The wrinkle is to use Shrodinger's ballot box. Just pick the result you want and don't even try to justify it until someone asks (in other words...back to where we are at right now). In the meantime, every time someone confirms, you get an extra unconfirmed ballot to adjust so, by the time the question is asked, you can "prove" the desired answer.

      When it comes to electronic voting, I am certain that I could create an electronic system that would pass any reasonable testing (code review, physical examination, mock elections...you name it) for any reasonable election and still give me exactly the results I wanted it to on election day and I am far from the best or most devious programmer that I know. In the existing system where the everything is hidden from the public eye and results are transmitted almost instantly but "processed" all night in a private office, any chimp could rig an election.

    27. Re:you're wrong. by NoseSocks · · Score: 1

      Call me old fashioned ... but I think we should worship the sun and moon as powerful gods, and fear them.

    28. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      There's a major difference between an electronic assistance for victims of disabilities and a voting machine that does the actual counting. A single machine per office could be setup for those cases and print a valid ballot ready for the disabled person to review, and if that person has enough motricity to use the machine unaided in the first place, then she certainly can put (or be helped to put) the printed paper ballot in the box.

    29. Re:you're wrong. by Imrik · · Score: 1

      Or it could just use C instead and the only way to find out that it had would be to get a significant number of people to check their votes together and tally them by hand.

    30. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't put a *lot* of thought into it (looking for loopholes), but I've often thought that a quick, cheap knee-jerk fix to the electronic voting problem would be that when you vote, the voting station gives you a receipt with a unique "serial number" and the vote (or votes) you cast.

      After the vote all the serial numbers and votes are posted on the web (a boring read but...). I don't mean that you can query a database (easily fiddled with), I mean the vote is just posted as huge blocks of text. You use the "find" command in your browser to find your serial number and check your vote.

      No names are attached to the serial numbers so it's still a secret ballot. Everyone can check their serial number to see what vote was officially registered. Any problems with your vote, and you have a receipt that you can use to start a complaint. A big plus, everyone in the world can do a re-count buy drudging through all the web pages. Vote happy psychos can save the page as text and do diffs on it everyday to make sure it doesn't change.

      It's not perfect, but it seems cheap, easy, and open but keeps your vote secret. I think the flaws only become apparent when something is fucking with the vote in a big way, and that's exactly what you want to expose.

      Oh yes, if your boss demands to see your vote, you say "Fuck you Commie!" and give him a fist full of Freedom!

      Disclaimer: I'm not American, but I can see why you guys love saying shit like that! :) :) :)

    31. Re:you're wrong. by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      I remember cable news reveling in the month of Florida recounts. Dragging it out is great for them, they can show off their Microsoft Surface devices.

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    32. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with paper and things like pens was fairly obvious in Florida in 2000. If you didn't closely follow it (I believe you are not in US) read here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000#Recount_Irregularities

    33. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you might enjoy reading about Ron Rivest's three ballot voting system (pdf).

    34. Re:you're wrong. by stiggs · · Score: 1

      There is no need to do anything different than this simple counting-by-hand system. Computers, in the form of punch cards, were introduced into US voting systems for reasons of convenience and profit, and not for accuracy. There's nothing more accurate than a double count done by hand, and it doesn't take that long. Ask a veteran pilot how they feel about computers arbitrarily taking over functions in the cockpit.

    35. Re:you're wrong. by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      There have been too many rigged\screwed up elections both in this country and in others to NOT be paranoid. The amount of power bestowed upon the election winner is such that we cannot be too careful. This CAN be done properly.

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    36. Re:you're wrong. by shirai · · Score: 1

      At the voting booth, you are required to relinquish one of your stubs, either the real or fake one (it's up to you). The boss only has one to choose from.

      Not sure if I like the entire idea, but this could be a workaround for your specific problem.

      --
      Sunny

      Be my Friend

    37. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course it happened. A lot. That's why the voting process evolved. In my youth, when I went with my parents, boxes were made of wood, sometimes you would hand the envelope containing the ballot to the election judge for him to put into the box, etc. Nowdays, boxes are transparent, made out of plexyglas, the officials are forbidden to even touch your ballot. You give your id, a person checks you are on the list, if you're okayed the judge push a lever on top of the box. This advance a mechanical counter and open the slit just the needed time for you to cast your vote. At the end of the day, boxes are spilled open on wide tables, the judges still don't have the right to touch them. 4 voluntary citizens of the precinct man each table. They make a rough division in 4 stacks, count each stack, then swap stack with the counter in front of them. When done, counters pairs swap places and go over the process again. One juge continuously records counts for each table. When done, ballots are put back in box and box is sealed again. No official ever touch a ballot. There are still fraud attempts, but either they are very local (and suppose a high level of complicity between everyone there, so it's unlikely to matter to the result), or in some countries, they rely more on brute force than actual fraud (think Iran, for instance).

      The question is not to know if a paper election can be rigged. The question is : does e-voting add more fraud possibilities to the voting process on top of already known frauds occurring with paper. And the answer is yes, it doesn't really avoid known frauding means, and it makes more subtle, new frauding schemes more likely. That's because the machine knows at any given time how many votes have already been cast, and who is leading. It can be made to cheat just enough to give a slight advantage that's not statistically detectable. OTOH, paper frauds must be very blunt to have any chance of being effective, and are therefore much more difficult to conceal. Especially if everybody has been given the right by law to attend every step of the process.

    38. Re:you're wrong. by I_want_information · · Score: 1

      Right, but not on the enormously huge scale that's possible with electronic voting machines.

    39. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...The only downside is its a tad convoluted. But I maintain that people that can't deal with even slightly complicated voting processes have no business casting a totally uneducated vote."

      We have that system in Melbourne for paying Tram fares. It's called Myki!

    40. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make it so you cant do two votes for the same guy. You can always fall back to "my real vote was my other one."

      (Devils advocate - he could check who you claim you didn't vote for)

    41. Re:you're wrong. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Have you seen Civitas?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    42. Re:you're wrong. by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Well thought out, but it is waaaay too complicated considering that there are many voters that can't even put a proper mark in a box with a frickin' pencil.

    43. Re:you're wrong. by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Because with the vote-on-everyone idea, it makes the ballot problematic.

      On US election day, a person could be voting on :

      • President and VP
      • Senator
      • Congressman
      • Governor
      • State senator
      • State representative
      • State AG
      • Judges
      • Prosecutors
      • State ballot initiatives (There were 12 of these in California last election)
      • Mayor
      • City counselor
      • City ballot initiatives
      • Probably more I'm missing. I do not live in the US.

      To do all those with a Canada-style ballot, you'd either need a massively large sheet or a small book of ballots, both of which would be logistical problems.

      I like the ballot-printer idea. It offers the simplicity of electronic and the security and verifiability of paper.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    44. Re:you're wrong. by honkycat · · Score: 1

      There are some problems with his proposal, as outlined elsewhere in the thread, but this is not one of them. The hash is tied to the vote, not to the voter. If the voter does not want to be identifiable in any way, he simply burns his hash stub.

    45. Re:you're wrong. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      But we should pray to Joe Pesci

    46. Re:you're wrong. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      voting explicitly implies discarding the identity of the voter

      Well, no, actually it doesn't; in the early days of the U.S., voting was public. The secret ballot may have advantages, but it's not the case that voting must be secret to be, well, voting.

      If you discard the link, you have *no way on earth* to actually prove something hasn't been rigged somewhere.

      Several cryptographic schemes have been proposed that would allow a voter to verify that their vote has been properly registered, and yet let their vote remain secret. A good starting place is the wik's article on auditable voting systems.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    47. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One way of making it easier on the voter would be to show each candidate in a random sequence and allow them to chose their candidate then take the same list and again randomly shuffle the order and get them to confirm, this will provide your AB pattern.

    48. Re:you're wrong. by TheMuon · · Score: 1

      "(the Congress chose Jefferson(D) over Adams(F))"

      First the 1800 election was a rather unique case, second Congress chose Jefferson(D) over his "running mate" Burr(D-traitor).

    49. Re:you're wrong. by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      It choosing makes no difference. It's still 50/50 you win/lose.

      Bullet-proof would be not giving a receipt, and being able to trust that votes aren't being changed by having sufficient oversight of the counting.

    50. Re:you're wrong. by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      Wait, I misread. You are saying you choose the real or dummy receipt, at the pollbooth. That's not bad, but your vote could be changed because you can never prove whether you took the real or dummy receipt. So much for watching over your vote by taking the real receipt.

    51. Re:you're wrong. by LordAndrewSama · · Score: 1

      10pm in somerset for local too :)

    52. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And of course the boss would have you input 'Kodos' for both A and B, so you can't say he accidentally picked the 'random vote'...

      But I must say, it's an interesting idea :) (although I am in favor of a paper trail, one that you yourself can check, no need for this new-fangled intertubes thingie)

    53. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With that system it's possible for the makers of the voting machine to cheat.

      Let's say your real vote is A, your dummy vote is X, and you ask to be able to verify your real vote.

      The machine pretends to obey you, but switches your real vote to B, your dummy vote to A and your vote verification choice to the dummy vote. You have no way of knowing if this has happened.

    54. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At this point the voter can't ever check that their actual vote hasn't been changed as everyone would have to select their "dummy" vote to ensure they couldn't be checked up on later, unless you're sayion that people understand that the hashed code would be used to ensure the correct vote hadn't been tampered with, if that's the case you just need a secret pad for the hash as someone could then type their hash key into the "post-voting website" and see their name attached to that hash.

      Still doesn't stop people messing with the machine such that it hashes the externally desired vote and not the voters choice.

      If the voter can verify, then a 3rd party can verify and thus enable coersion.
      If the voter can't verify or can only verify through a mechanism that does not reveal their vote then that mechanism is vulnerable to exploitation.

      Hmmm, though if you put the burden of obfuscation on the voter thus:

      Voter submits vote, gets hashed receipt that can verify vote directly.
      Voter has option of submitting n non-counted votes that also produce receipts.

      Only the voter knows which one is "real" they get to provide any of the receipts to potential coercers .

      But then the voter has to trust that the fake votes really are fake as they will appear to be genuine.
       

    55. Re:you're wrong. by samjam · · Score: 1

      Yes... but I've seen David Copperfield fly, and make a train disappear.

      Maybe he could change the ballot papers somehow under my nose.

      Sam

    56. Re:you're wrong. by atisss · · Score: 1

      Well, there's already PunchScan [puncshcan.org] which uses two papers.. One has mixed up candidates, another has mixed up answers, so You scan one of them and take it home, and destroy another. Then, when you got the copy of vote results, you can check that system counted your vote correctly (as in paper), but it doesn't reveal which one.

    57. Re:you're wrong. by laron · · Score: 1


      How about this?

      You select your candidate / party / referendum option on screen.
      The computer prints out a ballot paper and records your vote.
      You put the ballot paper in the ballot box.
      The returning officer selects a sample of ballot boxes at random and checks them to the computer.

      You could even use slightly modified point-of-sales systems from your local McDonalds for that.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
    58. Re:you're wrong. by fgouget · · Score: 1

      The only downside is its a tad convoluted. But I maintain that people that can't deal with even slightly complicated voting processes have no business casting a totally uneducated vote.

      And thus you claim that someone who does not understand your convoluted voting technology also will not understand the political issues he is supposed to vote on. That's like saying someone who is bad at math will also necessarily be bad at literature!

    59. Re:you're wrong. by fgouget · · Score: 1

      Voting machines should definitely be open-source

      Open-source is no help for the simple reason that on election day you, the voter, cannot verify that the machine in your voting booth is running the open-source code you verified the day before.

    60. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Then you have parties representatives that take turn to check the whole process during the day"

      Who represents the independents?

    61. Re:you're wrong. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      The general public. I know of elderly that plan to stay the day in a small group, chatting in the room. They bring coffee and cakes. Elections are something very local here. Each voting room receives at most ~ 2000 voters ; most of the time, a classroom of the local school is used (we vote on sundays). It's a time to meet with neighbours and chat with friends. At the same time, you just look around. You can stay 1 hour or 2, and then others have gathered in a large enough number so you leave. But we are mostly a pacified society.

    62. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sure in your make believe world that will work. Then while we are at it we might as well just provide health care to everyone, let people marry who they want, not prosecute every drug offense like a violent crime, allow 4 ouces of liquids on planes and let our large, overleveraged industries reap what they sow. Good luck with that.

      Maybe in your make-believe world your well thought out and rational ideas will work, but we're not having any of it here buddy.

      Why do people insist on using logic on illogical systems? Just doesn't seem logical.

    63. Re:you're wrong. by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      "when you get home" .... and when you get to work, your boss demands to see the website, can't, knows you've already looked at it, and fires your ass.

    64. Re:you're wrong. by v1 · · Score: 1

      The point here is it's impossible to give someone a provable receipt AND protect them from extortion at the same time. So they have the option to take home a receipt of their real vote, or of their dummy vote.

      If they're worried of being coerced, they take home a dummy receipt and forfeit the ability to verify their real vote later, but can produce a receipt that can be used to get online and verify the vote they were "supposed to make". If they're only worried about ballot fraud, they take home a receipt to their real vote and check on it after the election to make sure your vote counted.

      The result is that only the voter knows in their head whether their receipt is for the dummy or the real vote, making the receipt of no true accountability to anyone but the voter.

      So any employer with two brain cells realizes that even forcing you to turn over your receipt really tells them nothing for certain as to how you voted. If your employer didn't demand you bring back a receipt, and so you printed a true receipt, and then later asks for it, tell them you didn't select to print a receipt, or you lost it.

      And if enough people in say a single district all claim that their vote was changed or lost, then the auditors can move in and use the receipts voters volunteer to them to track the fraud down.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    65. Re:you're wrong. by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      It still seems easier to just not take a receipt at all if you are being coerced. No need for a fake.

      Much simpler.

    66. Re:you're wrong. by celtic_hackr · · Score: 1

      Well, if we must have damn computers counting the votes, I have a better solution than your, impossibly complex system.
      A simple, verifiable, electronic vote machine (patent pending):
      Parts list:
      1) self contained vote machine,
      2) Paper tape roller (think cash register standard size),
      3) Receipt viewing window in machine, that can only be viewed by pressing both hands down on buttons on opposite ends of the machine. This keeps people from taking photos of their vote.
      4) Near end of roll detector, which causes vote machine to lock up until a new roll is added.


      Usage:
      Voter votes verifies vote on paper and presses accept or reject. If neither button is pushed before the voter opens the curtain and leaves the booth, the vote is rejected. If a vote is rejected, the vote is blacked out and a hole is punched through the barcode generated along the side of the vote. The barcode simply holds a number with a timestamp, and indicates a new vote.
      Once, the accept button is pressed, the receipt is scrolled past and the vote registered. The accept button and reject buttons are reachable from the view buttons, so both the view buttons can be held while pressing the accept/reject button. This way you can see the vote erased or accepted, and be confident of your vote. Or at least as confident as any paper vote will ever be.

      Of course none of this will ever be able to replace the human cheating effect. People will always find ways to commit vote fraud. If you think there is no vote fraud in the US, well, then you are in serious need of medication for your delusions. Counting can even be done by machine using the actual visible names (or titles in the case of propositions and such) chosen on the paper tapes.

    67. Re:you're wrong. by Random+BedHead+Ed · · Score: 1

      Americans won't stand for it. They want to know NOW damnit, not tomorrow.

      I don't think the American public would really be all that upset if the election results didn't come in until the next morning. I suspect it's actually the news media that wants the results ASAP, in order to get everyone watching the election day evening news so that they can charge more for ad space.

      This is what I've always thought as well. There's a tendency to mistake what the media wants for what the people want, and really same-day should not be a requirement of our election system. In fact, I think it would be really nice if states and districts could be prohibited from releasing their numbers to the media until, say, 24 hours after polls close. Partially because it would improve the system, but mainly because it would annoy the press, and no one on either side of the political aisle really likes them nowadays.

    68. Re:you're wrong. by harl · · Score: 1

      Academically interesting? Sure. Practical in any way? Not at all.

      An overly complex system that would be a nightmare to implement. The chaos on voting day would be Epic. The education efforts alone would be insane. Which vote counts? Why am I voting twice? Is this my second vote or did the machine fuck up and I'm redoing my first vote?

      Most importantly it's not just complexity it's pointless complexity. You lost track of the original point. If you can only print out one vote and you print out the fake vote then you have no way of verifying your real vote! This isn't a verification system this is purely an anti-coercion system.

      We already have a bullet proof anti-coercion system. Lack of verification. The confidence has to be with the system. That's the problem with the voting machines in the states. If you have an open transparent system that can easily be policed, for example the current paper ballot system, then you don't need to verify each individual vote.

      If you don't have a transparent voting system then you're past the point where ballot boxes will make a different.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    69. Re:you're wrong. by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Why bother with the whole thing, then?

      If the receipt is potentially real or potentially fake, why give it at all?

      1. People can't use their receipt to prove that their vote was counted correctly - the system cannot tell anyone whether their receipt matches the real or dummy value of what's in the database, because that would make it possible to tell a real receipt from a dummy one. So the after-vote verification process is gone.

      2. All you get is the receipt saying "I voted" followed by real or fake names as you walk out the door. You could have just as easily remembered your votes or hand written them on a piece of paper, since that's no worse than a point-of-vote receipt.

      Why not just give each voter a vote serial number, and when you look up that number, the response is "yes, a vote with that number was counted in the final tally"?

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    70. Re:you're wrong. by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      The result is that only the voter knows in their head whether their receipt is for the dummy or the real vote, making the receipt of no true accountability to anyone but the voter.

      And what happens when Sequoia or some crafty hacker switches the flags in the database, so the fake votes become the real votes and the real votes become the fake votes? The receipt tag would still pull up the "fake" votes, except they'd be the ones cast.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    71. Re:you're wrong. by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      3) Receipt viewing window in machine, that can only be viewed by pressing both hands down on buttons on opposite ends of the machine. This keeps people from taking photos of their vote.

      So people with one hand are disenfranchised? As are people who can't hold both hands steady long enough to keep the window open continuously? Meanwhile someone with an iPhone on a lariat with a timer-based camera utility still gets their photo, as does someone with a camera in their sunglasses. Come on, you post on slashdot. You should know that it's impossible to share content with an end user and prevent that end user from copying said content.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    72. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even better, design like manned aircraft control system with two independently designed counting systems. System one inputs, tallies, and prints as you describe, voter confirms printout, system two reads that human understandable printout (eg not a QR or bar code) and also tallies. Incidents of systemic disagreement warrant further investigation.

    73. Re:you're wrong. by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      This is where you need a trustworthy third party.

      You know... I can't verify my vote got sent in unchanged on paper. I guess the idea is, there's enough people involved that the bad apples get weeded out?

    74. Re:you're wrong. by fgouget · · Score: 1

      This is where you need a trustworthy third party.

      And this would be one which is selected by the government, in other words, the ruling party? When the time comes to decide who's going to rule millions of people and negotiate military and trade treaties with various foreign governments; there is no such thing as a third party, not to mention a trustworthy one.

      You know... I can't verify my vote got sent in unchanged on paper.

      You can. That's because in real democracies your vote is put in a transparent ballot box, and then counted by voters, right on the spot, under your watchful eye, as soon as the election closes. The results for the polling place are then announced publicly right there so you can take them home with you and check that the results published later match.

      If your country does anything else, you cannot know for sure if the ballot counting is rigged or not.

    75. Re:you're wrong. by spyowl · · Score: 1

      Unless, of course, he is required by his employer / labor union / etc. to turn over his hash after voting. This IS a major problem.

    76. Re:you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do that when we can just do it the easy, simple, secure, current way of using paper ballots?

    77. Re:you're wrong. by munpfazy · · Score: 1

      An interesting idea, though there are a few complications.

      The version where the voter selects which receipt will be displayed before leaving the site does a nice job of handling external coercion, but it also means that the system knows which voters will never be able to verify their vote *before* the votes are counted. If it isn't possible to decide to check any individual vote after the election, then there's still an opportunity for tampering. There are steps you could take to make tampering less likely - say, recording the "use A/B" choice and the "display A/B" choice on separate hardware and combining them only after the vote count - but none are foolproof against someone with access to all the hardware and software being used.

      Second, and to my mind, most important - as a voter, I don't particularly care whether my individual vote is counted correctly. In elections where outcomes are often decided by a few percent of votes, an absolute minimum requirement is that every single vote *could* be verified. But, to really be effective, a system really ought to insure that a significant fraction of votes will be verified. If only a small fraction of people do check their receipts - and, if someone is sufficiently clever about incorporating demographic information into vote-rigging and is willing to accept a small but non-zero number of accusations of receipt errors - then fraud is still quite viable.

      Not a bad idea to play with, but on the whole it sounds like a very complicated fix, compared to something much simpler and likely cheaper, such as a paper receipt that every voter can look at in real time and which then gets placed into a lock-box which can be independently observed with as much scrutiny as we're willing to pay for.

    78. Re:you're wrong. by v1 · · Score: 1

      a paper receipt that every voter can look at in real time and which then gets placed into a lock-box which can be independently observed with as much scrutiny as we're willing to pay for.

      Reminds me of that cancelled election some months back where the election was cancelled because the president was overthrown, where a few days later they found ballot boxes prestuffed with ooodles of votes for the pres.

      Paper trails are less reliable in the end than individuals being able to personally verify their vote.

      But your point is well taken that the system would know if your receipt was for the dummy or the real vote. To rig such a protected election would require specifically only altering votes that the voter requested a dummy receipt for. (or elected to not print a receipt) I believe the vast majority of people would request a real receipt though, it's not like very many people are being coerced in voting. The simple existence of the dummy vote would suck the wind out of any big players trying to do that since it would reduce the risky venture's return to near zero, so I would expect well under 1% of the voting body to request a dummy receipt. (only those already under threat, which we HOPE is a small number!) The grand majority would get a true receipt, with the remainder not printing a receipt. Considering that, I'd amend my idea to not give the option to not print a receipt, since that would be a large enough body of fraud-vulnerable voters to make tampering worthwhile. If you don't want your receipt, throw it in the garbage can just outside the booth, since it's of absolutely no value to anyone besides someone trying to compile exit-poll estimates. Or better yet, a shredder.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  14. FCC violation = revote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?

    1. Re:FCC violation = revote? by sco08y · · Score: 1

      If the system favored one candidate over another, you'd want a revote, yes. But the voting system is never perfect and just about every close vote is contested. So, given the expense of elections, I'd argue against any revotes if the only problem is flawed code, and not an actual bias for one candidate / party or another.

    2. Re:FCC violation = revote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant FEC, not FCC.

  15. Too early to start the scandalising by SlidingGlassDoor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They may have violated the regulations, but it is still not clear that anything they did would have had any real impact. Best to wait and see what the analysis reveals.

    1. Re:Too early to start the scandalising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one would also like to have it confirmed that this was loaded onto the DB's during election, that's the smoking gun as far as I'm concerned, given that interpreted code is what violates federal law. Also, if this SQL code proves to be non-fraudulent it could be used as a PR-ploy to exhonorate Sequoia from any wrongdoing (i.e. election tampering) even if it might never really have been used.

  16. Why does it have to be secrative? by cosm · · Score: 1

    It just seems so back-asswards that the source-code & logic that sifts through millions of lines of data to determine our president is kept secret. What is the secret? There should not be anything to hide, therefore it should all be available, otherwise the machines are completely hypocritical to democratic transparency.

    If it is the companies intellectual property that concerns the government, well perhaps there should be a clause in the contract that states contractors must provide ALL source code if they win the bid. It would seem a system like that would bolster confidence in the system, and eliminate all the negative machine-fraud issues, while allowing multitudes of individuals to find any vulnerabilities or fallibilities in system, instead of a select few of individuals.

    --
    'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    1. Re:Why does it have to be secrative? by cosm · · Score: 1

      *secretive. whoops.

      --
      'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    2. Re:Why does it have to be secrative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, if the source code for voting machines is made public, then the communists have won.

  17. There's somebody wrong on the internet... by sakdoctor · · Score: 1

    And it's you!
    There are voting protocols that simultaneously allow:

    Verification of the voter by the voting authority
    Prevention of double (multiple) voting
    Anonymity for the voter to the voting authority
    Verification of the voters own vote

    Begin your research with David Chaum's blind signature.

    1. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I shouldn't be able to verify my own vote. If I can verify my vote, I can prove to myself after the fact how I voted, and therefore I can prove it to somebody else. That somebody else might try to coherce me into voting a specific way. I much prefer paper, pen, and hand counted. That way, I can verify the box is empty before everyone puts their vote in. Verify that my vote went into the box, and verify that the box was opened and that all votes in the box were counted correctly. I wouldn't be able to identify my ballot apart from the other ballots in the box, but that would be good, because nobody would be able to coherce me to vote a particular way. Just knowing that my vote was an a box, and that the box was counted correctly is enough for me to know that my vote was counted correctly.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by tftp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I can verify my vote, I can prove to myself after the fact how I voted, and therefore I can prove it to somebody else.

      Not necessarily. If an essential part of the algorithm (a key) is only in your head you can prove the results to yourself, but not to anyone else - especially if a wrong key produces a proof that is just as valid as the one made with the correct key. A simple XOR would be sufficient. You can store and publish such encrypted vote results all you want, only the original voter can tell what those numbers really mean. And if he wants he can disclose a different key, yielding a different "proven vote." The key can be randomly generated in the booth and shown to the voter, but not stored anywhere.

    3. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > If I can verify my vote, I can prove to myself after the fact how I voted, and therefore I can prove it to somebody else.

      Not true. Plenty of cryptographers have solved that problem- see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s

      If you remember that when you vote the order on the card/display was:

      Candidate A = [ ]
      Candidate B = [ ]
      Candidate C = [ ]

      And when you look it up your vote online it says:

      [ ]
      [x]
      [ ]

      Assuming you don't have bad memory you can prove it to yourself that you voted for "B" but can't prove it to others.

      BUT where many fancy systems fail and where pen and paper can win is in one very very important area.

      Voting systems do not just have to be correct and "fair", they have to be seen as correct and "fair" enough.

      They have to convince the losing parties (and their supporters) they lost "fair and square". Otherwise you get riots like in Iran (where the process and results weren't very convincing ;) ).

      A good working voting system that's simple enough for the average voter to understand will satisfy that. And in many countries it's just simple as collecting, storing, counting paper ballots in the view of everyone (some could be representatives from various parties and some from independent observers). The counting and verification is being done in parallel. Sure it's not 100%, but it's good enough (and not that expensive).

      A good cryptographic voting system might be 100% verifiable in theory, but it's still probably not 100% verifiable in practice since the average person would still need some trusted geek to tell them that "yes, it's correct". That's probably good enough too.

      But the current electronic voting systems out there certainly do not satisfy the "seen to be correct" requirement, they're probably not even correct. And a geek who knows his stuff will probably tell anyone who asks that those systems just make it easier to cheat.

      --
    4. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by cgenman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Again, why not just use a printer? Select your votes, all of them get tallied and a printout with machine readable and human readable output. Put that in a box. If there is a question about the final tally, you can A: verify that the initial digital count matches a barcode-scanned recount, B: verify that all or some of the barcode-scanned votes match the written out votes, C: count all of the human readable output manually.

      The idea that we can't do industrial printers these days on the cheap and reliable is laughable, especially with the stupid costs of these voting machines.

    5. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      There are voting protocols that simultaneously allow:

      Verification of the voter by the voting authority Prevention of double (multiple) voting
      Anonymity for the voter to the voting authority
      Verification of the voters own vote

      No, there aren't.

      Some are substantially better than others, but all of them have a blind spot. Either The voter can't really verify his vote, or he can't really trust that his vote remains private.

      As a matter of due diligence, I will look up your "David Chaum's blind signature" (I may have already). I'm certain it will have a fatal flaw, as has every system I've examined thus far. It doesn't matter how many people jump up and down in support of their ideologies or how vigorously. Nobody has shown me a secret ballot, end-to-end verifiable voting system. I do not believe one exists. (I would like to be proven wrong, but I don't think anybody can.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    6. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I can verify my vote, I can prove to myself after the fact how I voted, and therefore I can prove it to somebody else. That somebody else might try to coherce me into voting a specific way.

      "CastrTroy! Get in here! You're going to fill out this absentee ballot just the way I tell you, and sign it. I'll mail it for you. If you don't, it's curtains for your grandmother!"

      Or:

      "CastrTroy! Get in here! You're going to carry this spy camera pen into the voting booth so I can make sure you vote the way I want you to. If you don't, it's curtains for your grandmother!"

      So the whole "verifiable ballots allow coercion!" argument doesn't hold water: you can be coerced today. The defense against coercing votes isn't technical, it's that you're going to be locked in a cage for a very long time if you do it. (And rightly so.)

      But besides that, it's just factually wrong. It is possible to have a ballot that you can verify but that can't be used to show others how you voted, because it relies on a secret that you know but can't prove. See, for example, Chaum's Punchscan.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    7. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      I shouldn't be able to verify my own vote. If I can verify my vote, I can prove to myself after the fact how I voted, and therefore I can prove it to somebody else.

      I am a cryptography researcher, and I have to correct this information.

      What you wrote is absolutely not true, even though naively it seems obviously true. Modern cryptography is much much better than you think it is, to the point where things that seem impossible to an average layperson are actually possible. In particular, there are techniques like deniable authentication which allow you to verify your own vote while being unable to prove to anyone else how you voted. Read up on it, or at least make yourself aware of the state of the art of current research, so that you don't spread false statements.

    8. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      And this is your solution to a problem that was created by people being unable to correctly punch out small pieces of paper or line up arrows correctly? Lowest common denominator please.

    9. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by David+Jao · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a matter of due diligence, I will look up your "David Chaum's blind signature" (I may have already). I'm certain it will have a fatal flaw, as has every system I've examined thus far. It doesn't matter how many people jump up and down in support of their ideologies or how vigorously. Nobody has shown me a secret ballot, end-to-end verifiable voting system. I do not believe one exists. (I would like to be proven wrong, but I don't think anybody can.)

      Disclaimer: I am a cryptographer, and I have done research on topics related to electronic voting in the past.

      As a matter of simply stating a fact, regardless of your due diligence, the fact is that blind signatures and their application to electronic voting is a subject which is about 15 years old by now. If you didn't already know about this concept, then you are clearly not an expert in electronic voting or even in any related field of cryptology. Cryptographic electronic voting is a highly technical subject involving many different areas and subfields of cryptology, some of them heavily number theoretic and mathematical. You are probably not technically knowledgeable enough to pass judgment on such heavily technical subjects in which you are uninformed (or worse, prejudiced against, as evidenced by your choice use of words such as "ideologies").

      Even if I'm wrong about you, and you are technically knowledgeable enough to correctly evaluate cryptographic voting systems, it doesn't matter. For every one of you, there are thousands of other voters who are not technically knowledgeable, but who think that they are.

      The problem with voting systems is not mathematical. It is not cryptographic. From the point of view of cryptography, secret ballot, end-to-end verifiable voting systems do exist, and have been known for decades. Either a mix net or the Benaloh cryptosystem together with threshold secret sharing delegation of trust is all that is required. The problem with cryptographic end-to-end voting systems is that for every one cryptographer in the world, there are thousands of uninformed members of the general public who don't understand the math, and who think that the scheme is either untrustworthy or that they have found a flaw. For this reason, even if there is a secret ballot, end-to-end verifiable voting system (which there is), it will never be accepted by the general public. As a research scientist, I have had far too much experience in dealing with such obstacles. The public does not trust scientists, even when the scientists clearly know more than they do.

    10. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by Anne+Honime · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you didn't already know about this concept, then you are clearly not an expert in electronic voting or even in any related field of cryptology. Cryptographic electronic voting is a highly technical subject involving many different areas and subfields of cryptology, some of them heavily number theoretic and mathematical. You are probably not technically knowledgeable enough to pass judgment on such heavily technical subjects in which you are uninformed (or worse, prejudiced against, as evidenced by your choice use of words such as "ideologies").

      The public does not trust scientists, even when the scientists clearly know more than they do.

      Still wondering why ? A 6th grader with a good pair of eyes can understand and control a paper vote. The more people you gather to keep watch, the better, no training necessary. It would take you, with all your intelligence and experience, weeks of efforts to verify an e-system implementation, and you'd be one of a handful able to do so. And all it would take to rig the system would be to outsmart your small lot of scientists. Just *imagine* for a second the source code is mathematically correct and you verified it. How about the compiler ? Do you know if the system really runs on the bare metal or is it trapped in a VM ? Are you per chance a computer scientist as well as a cryptologist ? How many scientists would it take to screw that light bulb in the end ? How long would it take ?

    11. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by David+Jao · · Score: 2, Informative

      Still wondering why ? A 6th grader with a good pair of eyes can understand and control a paper vote. The more people you gather to keep watch, the better, no training necessary. It would take you, with all your intelligence and experience, weeks of efforts to verify an e-system implementation, and you'd be one of a handful able to do so. And all it would take to rig the system would be to outsmart your small lot of scientists. Just *imagine* for a second the source code is mathematically correct and you verified it. How about the compiler ? Do you know if the system really runs on the bare metal or is it trapped in a VM ? Are you per chance a computer scientist as well as a cryptologist ? How many scientists would it take to screw that light bulb in the end ? How long would it take ?

      Thanks, but I am neither a computer scientist, nor am I still wondering why. I figured out what you said a long time ago. Some computer scientists have also figured it out. That's why a lot of voting research these days is in the area of non-cryptographic voting schemes that still provide secret ballot end-to-end security. No such scheme is known today, but significant progress has been made, for example ThreeBallot by Ron Rivest.

      I, and many researchers, are well aware that no solution to the voting problem can ever involve a system, or a compiler, or source code, or any sort of bare metal hardware. The solution has to be non-cryptographic. Unfortunately, the politicians and legislators have not realized this yet (or they have, and are committing intentional sabotage), and most importantly, the general public has not realized this yet. The general public still thinks that voting machines are the way to go.

    12. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      > Just knowing that my vote was an a box, and that the box was counted correctly is enough for me to know that my vote was counted correctly.

      Ah, was that your box?

      Sorry, but we had to replac your box with McStuffedBallet while carrying it to the election headquarters to be counted. Your box is now being counted by the sturgeon and catfish.

      Apologies,

      Afghan Rural Election Commission.

    13. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by Migraineman · · Score: 1

      You can vote electronically, and receive a bar-coded receipt. Trot that slip of paper to a verification station at the polling center, and validate your vote. Surrender the receipt to the verification officials (i.e. drop the paper copy into a ballot box.) There's now a paper trail that can independently verify the electronic results, and your vote remains anonymous. Thuggish enforcer-types don't have access to your receipt. The bar code identifies your votes, not you. (Choose a scan-tron style receipt if bar codes bother you.)

    14. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to get rid of this worry about "coercion". We have so many people in every country that coercing enough (after that fact even) people is ridiculous. For small towns/city votes, then sure use a different system. But for presidential elections? c'mon...

      Get it together and realise that we need accountability of large scale voting, and one method is for people to verify their votes. End of story. If I can't check my vote, and citizens can't privately verify the public system then we are out of luck and welcome the police state already.

    15. Re:There's somebody wrong on the internet... by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      As a scholar in the humanities, I would like to note that David Jao's dismissal of the concept or use of the term ideologies demonstrates a bias toward ideal states and zero-sum games that don't exist in the real world, which is populated by humans and the ideologies that motivate them.

  18. Treason? by Phantom+of+the+Opera · · Score: 1

    Time to call on Article 3 if this really is an attempt to influence the vote?

    1. Re:Treason? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

      How would you propose to twist this definition to fit your idea?

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    2. Re:Treason? by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I'm comforted by knowing that no matter how bad our politics get yours are so much worse and I'm a Canadian so some Americans might consider me to be an enemy.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    3. Re:Treason? by SUB7IME · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why, thank you, that's the justification we've been looking for. Invoke Article III!

    4. Re:Treason? by symbolset · · Score: 3, Funny

      This might hurt your feelings but: you're a Canadian. Most Americans don't consider you ever.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    5. Re:Treason? by Phantom+of+the+Opera · · Score: 1

      I suppose the spin I could put on it is that Sudan, Iran, Russia, China and any non-democracy can say 'neener, neener, neener - your not better than us'.

      Still, thinking about possible fraud like this makes my blood boil. Not everyone cares so much though.

    6. Re:Treason? by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Be careful... if you insult them too much, they might take back all their talent! (Mike Myers, Martin Short, Eugene Levy, Dan Akroyd, William Shatner, Michael J. Fox, etc. etc...) Of course, they may also take Celine Dion and Bryan Adams too...

      (Tongue planted firmly in cheek, eh?)

    7. Re:Treason? by c_sd_m · · Score: 1

      Doesn't hurt us at all, we've seen what happens to countries with oil that you consider.

  19. Canadian Elections - KISS by Strider- · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'll stick to voting with pencil, paper, and hand counted ballots. Of course, we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional (It's violation of parliamentary supremacy). Thus all we vote for is our representative. Of course this seems to be happening every 18 months, but with four political parties, this tends to happen. :) Oh, and for those who are wondering, each ballot is hand counted, in triplicate, with scrutineers from each of the candidates on said ballot in attendance. It takes about 4 or 5 hours to count 10 000 000 ballots, and recounts rarely change the results by more than 1 or 2 votes per district.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    1. Re:Canadian Elections - KISS by rueger · · Score: 1

      Move to Canada: No DMCA (Yet), no software patents, no bullshit.

      That last one may be pushing things just a bit..

      FWIW, municipal elections seem to favour paper ballots followed by scanners for counting. To my mind that offers a nice balance of speed and accuracy in counting, with nice paper backups in case there are questions.

    2. Re:Canadian Elections - KISS by Interoperable · · Score: 1

      I agree, Elections Canada is far from perfect but it generally does it's job well. I like voting with a pencil and paper, it's satisfying and concrete. I simply like putting an unambiguous X on my choice and leaving the paper slip to remain as hard evidence of my choice. It also provides the option of spoiling the ballot in entertaining ways if all choices are too unpalatable to actually vote for (I'd vote NDP as a protest vote but Jack Layton is a dinosaur of a politician). We may even have a respite from voting now that the Liberals are being trounced in the polls.

      --
      So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
    3. Re:Canadian Elections - KISS by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted. Hand counting ballots is a just a bit harder if there are 10 times as many of them to count. (Yes, you would think this process would parallelize very well, and you could just throw 10 times as many counters at it.)

      The guiding principle in ANY election is that there should ALWAYS be a paper audit trail, regardless of what technology is used to do the initial tally. The surest way to show that the SQL code is tampering with the election is to show a discrepancy between the computer generated results and the results of random hand counts.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Canadian Elections - KISS by shking · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted. Hand counting ballots is a just a bit harder if there are 10 times as many of them to count

      Not if you have 10 times as many people to count them. These massively parallel systems scale rather well you know.

      --
      -- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
    5. Re:Canadian Elections - KISS by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted.

      Uhm, vote counting is an embarrassingly scaleable problem. I.e. the number of voters is mostly irrelevant (on the safeish presumption that you can extract the same proportion of counters from each population at equivalent per-counter costs). It's an O(logn) problem.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
  20. Wikileaks? by s0litaire · · Score: 1
    Wonder why this has not been released to Wikileaks yet?.

    This sort of stuff would go down well there...

    (evidence of possible vote tampering and all that jazz)

    --
    Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
  21. This is cool and all, but... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ... This is cool and all but.. BAL_ID null -- 1 - show candidate on ballot (default) -- 0 - remove candidate from the ballot -- 2 - don't show candidate on the ballot, but reserve space for -- her on the layout , IS_ON_BALLOT T_P_BOOL null -- Code used by State reports , STATE_CODE char(7) null -- Reference to AUDIO; clip used to describe candidate header -- in English , AUDIO_ID T_GLOBAL_ID null -- For grid style: which slate the candidate goes into , SLATE int null , constraint PK_CANDIDATE primary key clustered (CANDIDATE_ID) -- create indexes on table CANDIDATE Exec(" create index FK_CANDIDATE_AUDIO_FK on CANDIDATE (AUDIO_ID) Exec(" create index FK_CANDIDATE_CONTEST_FK on CANDIDATE (CONTEST_ID) If this is the worst of the "business logic" that "controls or influences the flow" of elections, I think they're in for a disappointing read. Using a value in a database isn't considered "business logic" hte last I checked.

    * t violates the federal rulebook on voting systems on several levels: the rules require that code be hash-checked to prove authenticity in the field for obvious reasons. If the real working code is buried in with the data, no such hash-checks are possible.

    Except that so far, I'm seeing table construction and table layouts. I guess that's technically code - as any SQL technically is - but a good case can be made to say that it's just the database structure. Which can, of course, be subjected to a hash check.

    The federal rulebook is also clear that code can't be interpreted, apparently to avoid modification "in the field" (generally county or city election offices).

    Well shit, in that case, they can't use SQL at all. Since a database is a fairly reasonable way to track the candidate data, display strings, etc... I'm pretty sure that this wasn't the intent of the law. (No, IANAL, just applying common sense).

    I do think it's great and long overdue that this information is now available. But I also think they'll want to finish the analysis and get some people who understand what they're looking at, before they start making claims. There may be validity to them - but so far it's tenuous if there at all. (Full disclosure: I'd love to electronic voting either a) shut down or preferably b) administered in a 100% transparent fashion... so I'm not making this post in anybody's defense)

    1. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Senjutsu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that so far, I'm seeing table construction and table layouts. I guess that's technically code - as any SQL technically is - but a good case can be made to say that it's just the database structure. Which can, of course, be subjected to a hash check.

      Except that the DDL isn't in a bunch of scripts that are building the schema, the schema exists in a bunch of strings that are concatenated together in stored procedures with some arguments to the procs munged in, and passed to Exec statements when the stored procedures are run.

      That's not normal table building, that's an unabashedly self-modifying database.

    2. Re:This is cool and all, but... by itwerx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "that's an unabashedly self-modifying database" Not to mention that ID 15 -> 21 re-mapping in one of the excerpts. Why would an ID of any kind ever need to be remapped on the fly like that? Heck, I used to do a little SQL programming back in the day, I might just have to dig into it a bit myself! :)

    3. Re:This is cool and all, but... by sco08y · · Score: 1

      Well shit, in that case, they can't use SQL at all.

      If that were really the case, they couldn't use any code whatsoever. The whole thing would have to be a collection of ASICs or something like that.

    4. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I think you raise a very good point that doesn't seem to be very well taken. Using MS SQL for part of the voting system at all introduces problems, that means the voting system incorporates other pieces built on MS tools to insert, store, and retrieve that data. That's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. That means these eVoting companies are doing very little work when it comes to actual security - which is pointed out over and over again in this document (http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting_systems/ttbr/sequoia-source-public-jul26.pdf)

    5. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      "But I also think they'll want to finish the analysis and get some people who understand what they're looking at, before they start making claims"

      Preferably someone who knows that a .bak file isn't "vandalised", but the standard SQL file level backup extension...

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
    6. Re:This is cool and all, but... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Except that so far, I'm seeing table construction and table layouts. I guess that's technically code - as any SQL technically is - but a good case can be made to say that it's just the database structure. Which can, of course, be subjected to a hash check.

      Except that the DDL isn't in a bunch of scripts that are building the schema, the schema exists in a bunch of strings that are concatenated together in stored procedures with some arguments to the procs munged in, and passed to Exec statements when the stored procedures are run. That's not normal table building, that's an unabashedly self-modifying database.

      It seems more like a matter of the database dump being the /full/ database schema - including the stored procs they run to create new ballots.

      Now... this is unabashedly crappy design, but I don't see that it qualifies as self-modifying. "Self-creating" perhaps, if anything.

    7. Re:This is cool and all, but... by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 1

      Yes, this was damned risky on our part from a PR point of view.

      WITHOUT QUESTION we will make mistakes, we'll screw up, and the whole world will see it and people will gripe on /.

      But a fully public exam and disclosure was also the right thing to do.

      We're learning things it would have taken months to sort out in private, in a matter of hours, and this is all our votes at stake.

      Part of what we're doing here is answering a key question: is a public exam of voting systems even possible?

      Because remember, as partially retarded as this one is, it's the first one ever.

      Jim March

    8. Re:This is cool and all, but... by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 1

      Hey, a couple of people tried to load it, it failed big. Apparently we screwed up.

      That's so far by far the ugliest wart that's popped up, and we did say the vandalism thing was "preliminary".

      Sigh. That's the kind of risk we took with a totally public reveal. We didn't have anybody on our own team who knows SQL.

      But, would you rather have us mess around on our own for God knows how long, or do a public reveal?

      All of these voting system reviews so far have happened behind closed doors. That's morally wrong. We took a different route, the first public exam ever, despite the risks.

      Beat us up all you want, but do we really deserve it?

      Jim March

    9. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It looks likes possibly a setup script probably inserted into an otherwise empty template database. It's possible the script is removed from the database after the database is created to comply with the requirements that no source code be present on the machines after elections begin. Technically, this doesn't occur when simply dropping the procedures from the database since they may remain in the DB files but they aren't accessible anymore by normal means within the DB.

    10. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      would you rather

      Thanks for asking. I would rather you:

      a.) omit any further hyperbole regarding Sequoia

      b.) avoid any further uncorroborated speculation about things you don't understand

      c.) take care not to characterize the eventual conclusions of those who do understand the material

      d.) withhold any accusations until a credible legal authority is willing to publicly support your case in an appropriate legal forum [1]

      In short; I would rather you begin behaving like a credible grownup.

      If you fail in any of the above you will most likely spend the next decade in civil court having your spastic ass sued off, for revealing trade secrets, slander of trademark, etc. You'll deserve it too.

      [1] not Slashdot

    11. Re:This is cool and all, but... by blowdart · · Score: 1

      What? You don't think you can talk to MS-SQL from PHP? Or Java? Or Ruby? Or a myriad of other systems? What utter tosh. And how would that be different to writing the voting software using, say, MySQL and a compiled C++ Gnome app running on Linux? You can't say that the platform means that developers do very little work when it comes to security, that's just a nonsense. You could write software under linux without bothering about security, just as you could write .NET that does implement security.

    12. Re:This is cool and all, but... by blowdart · · Score: 1

      Yes but considering you can download a free (no cost) versions of MS SQL2005 or a time limited version of SQL2008 how hard would it have been to check? If you don't have anyone on your team who knows SQL then why is the site starting to comment on the SQL you discovered using strings? If you don't know it can you really offer an opinion?

      Saying it's vandalised when you didn't even perform the basic checks with someone who knows the MS platform is something you should be beaten up for, it's sensationalist, and now, if you do discover something, how much of your message will get hidden simply because you cried wold at the very beginning?

    13. Re:This is cool and all, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The federal rulebook is also clear that code can't be interpreted, apparently to avoid modification "in the field" (generally county or city election offices).

      Well shit, in that case, they can't use SQL at all. Since a database is a fairly reasonable way to track the candidate data, display strings, etc... I'm pretty sure that this wasn't the intent of the law. (No, IANAL, just applying common sense).

      They could have a database with a fixed schema, rather than one that does DDL on the fly.

      They could have their DML (select, insert, update, delete statements) made directly from within the application (which could then be signed), rather than using stored procedures, and certainly rather than using stored procedures that themselves use EXEC of dynamic SQL. (The application would use prepared statements rather than dynamic SQL requests to help avoid SQL injection attacks, of course.)

      It may not be the "default" way of doing things, but its a pretty common approach and has no major downsides. Since they are targetting a specifically regulated domain, you'd think they'd make sure their design approach was compliant.

  22. Addendum: by cosm · · Score: 1

    "if the source code for voting machines is made public"

    Iranians may have definative proof. /TinFoilHat

    --
    'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
  23. All code is interpreted code by davidwr · · Score: 1

    All code is interpreted by something. That something might be hardware, microcode, firmware, a middle layer, or even a whole VM, but all code is interpreted.

    Saying code is or is not interpreted is simply where you draw the line. Even "native" code on most processors these is really interpreted by the microcode or something similar.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:All code is interpreted code by sten+ben · · Score: 1

      Sure, but does compiled languages generally allow run-time modification of the code? IANAL, but it seems pretty obvious that they are referring to interpreted code as in interpreted languages.

    2. Re:All code is interpreted code by Valdrax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All code is interpreted by something. That something might be hardware, microcode, firmware, a middle layer, or even a whole VM, but all code is interpreted.

      Saying code is or is not interpreted is simply where you draw the line. Even "native" code on most processors these is really interpreted by the microcode or something similar.

      I think you know exactly what they mean. Human-readable code == bad; byte-code == good.

      Your argument boils down to the same sort of definition-shifting, intellectual masturbation as, "But everything humans make is natural because humans are natural," or "There's no such thing as an honest politician because everybody lies sometimes." Everyone knows what "interpreted," "natural," and "honest" actually mean in context, and pettifogging over terms like that adds nothing to any discussion ever.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    3. Re:All code is interpreted code by davidwr · · Score: 1

      Sure, but does compiled languages generally allow run-time modification of the code?
      In pre-modern chips and some modern low-end chips without memory protection or a good run-time to prevent such things, yes.

      One of the problems of 1980s-era PCs was any program could walk all over memory.

      Absent hardware to protect itself or code audited by human beings who knew what to look for in a disassembly of the compiled binary and weed out any self-modifying or other-code-modifying code, compiled election code could easily change itself at run-time. You wouldn't even need crooked source code - just get a carefully compromised compiler and your count is cooked.

      Of course, if your compiler is compromised, you wouldn't need self-modifying code.

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    4. Re:All code is interpreted code by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      The intent of the law appears to be to require clear "code" vs. "data" separation. The mechanism (the "code") should be fixed, and everything that the code manipulates (the "data") cannot turn into mechanism (more "code") once the system is certified. This would seem to preclude generating SQL queries. In my mind, it also requires that data that drives the election (ie. ballot definitions) need to also be immutable at election time. That is, once an election is configured, the configuration needs to be locked down and then certified prior to the election. I propose one way to do this here.

      In the case of protecting against self-modifying machine code, I suggest that the machine run regular integrity checks, perhaps after each vote. The code that runs the election shouldn't be particularly large, so it shouldn't be too expensive to run a quick signature check over it. (Under a second.)

  24. Take a Page from CT by JackSpratts · · Score: 1

    here in connecticut we simply check off our choice(s) on a paper ballot and insert them for machine scans which tally the votes electronically for rapid post election reporting. since the voter actually voted on paper, and since the paper record remains in the machine magazine until opened under multi-party supervision, it's at least as safe as regular ballots while satisfying legal requirements under the voting act. i miss the hulking and heavy curtain lever machines i grew with (and now own for posterity) but this seems like a good and workable compromise from secretary of state susan bysiewicz.

    btw that site is serving the 150 meg zip files rapidly in spite of the /. effect. i got mine in just a few minutes. kudos for the serious hosting.

    - js.

    1. Re:Take a Page from CT by rynthetyn · · Score: 1

      That's the way my county does it in Florida, they had the foresight to replace their punch cards with optical scan machines a few years before the 2000 election fiasco. Sometimes I think I live in the only county in the state that's not entirely corrupt and incompetent.

      --
      Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
    2. Re:Take a Page from CT by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      Would that have been Leon County? Volusia County? Broward? Sarasota?

      Perhaps Palm Beach?

      Hope I haven't burst your bubble, but there sure is a lot of fraud going on in Florida. Much more than I thought when I started this post...

  25. Have you ever voted in the primaries? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Like what ?... Let me guess : no need to show someone that's not supposed to win, for instance ?

    There are closed primaries where one cannot vote in the primary of the other party. E.G. Registered Democrats can't vote in closed Republican primaries and vice versa. Generally, registered independents can vote in one primary or the other, but not both, but state laws vary.

    1. Re:Have you ever voted in the primaries? by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      No, for the good reason in my country, primaries are under the responsibility of the party that want them, they must man whatever voting place they want and provide the logistic out of their own chest, therefore not abusing public funds for what really is a private endeavour.

      This said, my remark was obviously ironic, as I'm not absolutely alien to the US voting process quirkiness. My intention was to show that technology in itself is neutral, but can be a double edged sword. On the one hand, you have a perfectly legit use for such a process, but you can as easily turn it against the people on the other hand.

    2. Re:Have you ever voted in the primaries? by Zxern · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone other than Republicans be on a Republican primary ballot? And how would anyone not registered Republican get to a machine to begin with?

      There is no real need for this option.

  26. Another case of failed redaction! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The file they have is simply a SQL Server backup.
    It takes a few minutes to restore using SQL 2005 Express + SSMSE
    Nothing has been destroyed or sabotaged.

    but...

    When the database is restored you get the tables with the data in.
    All the stored procedures have been deleted. Or so Seqoia thought :)

    As the use of strings on the backup file demonstrates, the text of the sp's are still there.
    There are various database tools (Lumigent was one from memory) that allow looking back through the database log and, I expect, returning the database to a previous state.

    Just when companies had got the hang of cleaning up after track changes they move on to SQL database backups :)

    1. Re:Another case of failed redaction! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, I still remember when the local MS rep used to send out his info newsletters to non-Gold Partner level people. He'd carefully redact the stuff meant for partners eyes only, in Microsoft Word. I'd just as carefully "strings" the received file to find out what the good stuff was. Gotta love the old OLE compound document format.

      In one case, I learned about a caching-related Windows SMB issue that was not fixable that led to corruption of multi-user databases accessed via shares (which I suspected was a bad idea, but had no proof of), that was affecting a product made by the VAR I worked for. KB article number and everything -- but the KB article wasn't accessible to mere mortals. However, it gave us what we needed to go to MS and ask them to ante up the details on how to tweak things to at least reduce the frequency of the problem.

  27. Black Box Voting Is Bad by GearheadX · · Score: 1

    I've had a really bad feeling in my gut ever since that raid in that South American country turned up a computer with genuine, fake validated vote information for an election that had never taken place. We really need a transparent, verifiable means of keeping the system honest. Treating a voting machine like a black box, to the public, is a huge disservice. It also makes it harder to catch signs of tampering when nobody knows how the damn things work.

  28. Download Links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/downloadlocations

    1. Re:Download Links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:Download Links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  29. too much voting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I've never seen the necessity to complicate things any further than paper, pencil, double physical count. Cheap, no machines involved, fast. On a national election down here (about 15 million voters), voting booths close at 6pm and results are known nation wide right on time to open the 8pm evening news.

    Except that Americans like to vote on everything.

    Not just politicians, but sherifs, judges, district attorneys (i.e., head government prosecutors), etc. Add this to the fact that most elections (municipal, county, state, federal) tend to happen on one day, so that when you walk into the booth, you don't just have a piece of paper, but a small booklet to go through. Then add propositions (i.e., referendums) that many states have if enough people sign a petition. If you want to be an educated voter on all the possible choices you have to do some serious studying.

    And then you have to count all of these 20+ separate run offs for the various levels of government.

    1. Re:too much voting? by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except that Americans like to vote on everything.
       
      And?
       
      If it's important enough to vote on, it's important enough to count properly.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    2. Re:too much voting? by rsborg · · Score: 1

      If it's important enough to vote on, it's important enough to count properly.

      I'll add something to your insightful remark, lamb... if it's important enough to vote on, we should be given the time to vote on it. Stop cramming everything into one voting day, have many ballots and do everything by vote-by-mail like Oregon does (you can still drop it off at the ballot box on election day, IIRC). Now you can have many elections and vote on all manner of stuff.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    3. Re:too much voting? by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      No offense to Oregon, but I don't even like trusting the USPS to handle my postcards. There's no way I'll be trusting them with my votes.

    4. Re:too much voting? by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you ever seen voter turn-out numbers? Americans don't like to vote at all.

      --
      +0 Meh
    5. Re:too much voting? by makomk · · Score: 1

      The UK did a test run of postal-only voting a couple of years ago. It ended pretty much how you'd expect - massive electoral fraud. Candidates and important community figures in certain areas went door-to-door collecting people's blank ballot papers to be filled in appropriately.

      Postal voting destroys the protections provided by a secret ballot, which is why it tends to be strictly regulated. Do you have any idea how widely and seriously non-secret ballots were exploited?

    6. Re:too much voting? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      Have you ever seen voter turn-out numbers? Americans don't like to vote at all.

      ... except when the incumbent is quite obviously going to continue being an idiot....

    7. Re:too much voting? by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      But not all in the same god forsaken time! There is such a thing as information overload!

  30. MS SQL 2005 Backup by Khakii · · Score: 1

    Seems like the files don't really amount to much. They are SQL Server 2005 backups where the would-be interesting data (any code in the form of stored procedures and triggers) were removed.

    http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/message/view/home/15697868
    http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/message/view/Discussion+Related+To+The+Original+Data+File+And+What+Sequoia+Did+To+It./15697404

  31. Voting is Hard by deblau · · Score: 1

    I know everyone here likes to armchair quarterback, but designing a proper voting system is Really Hard (tm). I attended a workshop put on by Ron Rivest about a year ago (details here), and had dinner with him afterward. I wish I had been taking notes because I don't remember all the details, but at least one salient point stuck with me.

    One the one hand, you want a system that prevents voting coercion: "Vote for who I tell you or I'll break your legs." That's a strong reason why we give people privacy when they vote (the secret ballot). On the other hand, you want a system that prevents fraud by allowing a voter to make sure her vote was counted in the final tally. But here's the catch: you can't give the voter a receipt, or in fact anything that can be used (even theoretically) to recover a list of the candidates they voted for, because coercion now becomes "Give me the receipt/token/URL/whatever or I'll break your legs." Reconciling these two requirements is a Really Hard Problem, and there are smart people (like Dr. Rivest) who are working on it. In fact, he presented a few really innovative but embryonic solutions at the workshop, including a kind of hashing scheme that can even defeat on-site source code tampering.

    Until these problems are solved, we won't be able to trust ANY voting system code, regardless whether it's open source or not. So while it's important that the Sequoia source code was released, please try to have some perspective.

    --
    This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    1. Re:Voting is Hard by CityZen · · Score: 1

      The problems you mention appear to have been solved already. There was a /. article a while back about Punchscan, a two-part ballot system, where the order of the choices for each selection is randomized, and a special keyed algorithm is necessary to know the choice order for any given ballot. The 2-part ballot has two layers, separating the choice description from the choice label; one part alone would not indicate how a choice was made. When the voter marked through a choice, it marked both layers. The voter could choose which layer to shred, while the other is counted and retained as a receipt. It has a system where the voter can go online to verify his ballot.

      The real problem with voting is that you cannot see what happens once your ballot has been cast. Remember the quote attributed to Stalin: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."

      The only solution to this problem that I can think of is to provide a system that allows any interested party to count the votes. If only one party can count the votes, they are automatically suspect. If a limited number of parties can count the votes, then they can create problems that are not easily resolved. If anyone can count the votes, then most of those problems go away. How to achieve this, while still retaining anonymity, might not be easy (I can't say for certain, not having studied the problem deeply).

    2. Re:Voting is Hard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buzz!! Wrong Answer. It's damn easy to design a voting system. "Let all the Ayes/Nays Stand and be counted" as is done in a floor vote show/lack of support for any ballot measure. The real difficulty is in designing a system that is tamperproof and transparent but the Founders of the United States came up with a system that worked for over 200 years, which raises my question: "Why in hell do we need anything faster?" Our electorial transfer of power is still geared to a time when it took months to transfer from one part of the country to another. So as I asked, why in hell do we need a fast count? Is it the damn Media? They want to know and report who won the election within minutes of the polls closing. Well Fuck Em. We need to ensure that our voting system is free of physical tampering (ballot stuffing) and that the count is correct. If you want it faster, then you damn well need to pay for the bodies needed to count the ballots don't you?

      So the real question in my mind, is why in hell does it take 100 Million dollars to run an election in the United States and we can't even ensure the integrity of our vote yet Mexico can run a national Election for half the cost and the people pretty much trust the results? Tell me that.

    3. Re:Voting is Hard by daveime · · Score: 1

      you want a system that prevents voting coercion

      Agreed ... which is why any paper / electronic system should be able to tell you "yes, you have already voted". What it should NOT tell you after the fact is WHO you voted for.

      The whole point about voting is that it is anonymous. No one, not even yourself, should be able to later verify WHO you voted for. Ergo, no coercion possible, because despite any threats, there is no way for anyone to verify later the actual choices you made.

      So why not a simple receipt with a unique ID / hash on it ? You can go online later and verify that you *did* in fact vote, and that that vote has been counted. What you cannot do is retrieve the data on *who* you voted for.

      Why must everything be so complicated with you Yanks ?

  32. Not stripped out... by eWarz · · Score: 1

    Hi Guys, it's a SQL Server 2008 backup. Nothing stripped out about it. It restores fine, i have it in my local instance of SS2008.

    1. Re:Not stripped out... by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      Hi Guys, it's a SQL Server 2008 backup. Nothing stripped out about it. It restores fine, i have it in my local instance of SS2008.

      According to the TFA, they admitted to being incorrect about the sabotage. Did it restore all of the procedures that appear to be in the dump file when parsed with `strings`?

  33. absolutely. by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

    MOD ++

  34. stop it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The stop voting and start governing.

    1. Re:stop it by sych · · Score: 1

      Is that like Meta-Moderating?

  35. How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQL.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQL Server Express 2008:

    Step 1. Go download SQL Server Express 2008 (This is trivial, left up to the reader. You might have to go to a microsoft webpage) and install.

    Step 2. Go download SQL Tools for SQL Server (Trivial) and install.

    Step 3. Go download the .bak.zip file from the above wiki. Save it to 'C:\foofoo\'. Unzip the .bak file within it to 'C:\foofoo\'. You should now have: 'C:\foofoo\RIV_20081104_Canvass_Final_dbset_E.bak'

    Step 4. Start up SQL Server Express

    Step 5. Open SQL Management Studio and connect to your local SQLEXPRESS instance.

    Step 6. Click on the top most node in (Should be your machine's name\SQLEXPRESS). Click "New Query".

    Step 7. Run the following query:

    RESTORE DATABASE RIV_20081104_E FROM disk='C:\foofoo\RIV_20081104_Canvass_Final_dbset_E.bak'
    WITH MOVE 'RIV_20081104_Esys' TO 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\MSSQL.1\MSSQL\Data\RIV_20081104_Esys.mdf',
              MOVE 'RIV_20081104_Edat' TO 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\MSSQL.1\MSSQL\Data\RIV_20081104_Edat.mdf',
              MOVE 'RIV_20081104_Elog' TO 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\MSSQL.1\MSSQL\Data\RIV_20081104_Elog.ldf',
              REPLACE
    go

    Step 8. Wait.

    Step 9. This should create a database called RIV_20081104_E.

    Have fun.

  36. What's different about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How's this different to any hand-counted vote where I'm sure handfuls of votes that the counter didn't agree with "go missing" regularly, except in that we actually have documented evidence of what's done?

  37. Paper ballots are not immune to software problems by ComputerInsultant · · Score: 1
    Optical scan machines have software bugs too!

    Humboldt County, California has an innovative program to put on the Internet scanned images of all the optical-scan ballots cast in the county. In the online archive, citizens found 197 ballots that were not included in the official results of the November election. Investigation revealed that the ballots disappeared from the official count due to a programming error in central tabulation software

    http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/election-transparency-project-finds-ballot-counting-bug

    --
    engineers are all basically high-functioning autistics who have no idea how normal people do stuff
  38. Florida scrapped touchscreen voting by voss · · Score: 1

    Oddly enough the governor who decided to scrap touchscreen, Charlie Crist, was a republican,
    who apparently wasnt fond of his Republican predecessor Jeb Bush.

    Now Florida votes using optical scan ballots which we should have done in the first place.

  39. Building an evoting machine difficult? by imcdona · · Score: 1

    I am by no means a programmer. I know just enough PERL to write a few scripts here and there. I don't understand why building a program that stores result of whether someone pressed option 1 or option 2 is so difficult. Couldn't this be done with less than 100 lines of code? It doesn't make sense to me.

    1. Re:Building an evoting machine difficult? by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Your noobish innocence gives you a unfuddled untainted honesty.

      You see, it is necessarily complex for two reasons.

      One, we're paid by the hour, paid for support, and paid for the next upgrade, so things tend not to be as reducably simple and bulletproof as the could be.

      Bugs & Bloatware = job security.

      Two, if it was too clear and simple it would be very difficult to hid malicious code to rig the election.

      It is also possible that a piece of innocent looking code, that is assessed as doing one thing can actually do something dastardly and nefarious. This is best hidden in bloatware.

      Your too honest in your observation that such a straightforward single use system could be reduced to a very simple very easily verifiable piece of voting software....

      But there are profits at stake here.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    2. Re:Building an evoting machine difficult? by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      The problem is much more complex than that.

      You need to present voters with options of which candidates to vote for. This should be reconfigurable from election to election, and from voting place to voting place -- after all, I need to be able to vote for this year's governor's race, my local state senate / legislature district, all the other county seats, and all of the ballot initiatives. I need not to see anything outside of my district. If this is a primary, I only need to see the candidates for my party and not the others. The interface needs to be user-friendly and adaptable to people who don't speak English or who have disabilities. You need to store the results in a way that preserves the integrity of the data and the anonymity of the voter.

      You need to store the vote tallies in a secure way that cannot be tampered with from the outside. The storage of that data needs to be secure against both malicious attempts to mess with it and machine failure. You also need to be able to transmit it to a central elections office without being tampered with in route, without being dropped or lost, and without allowing fake results to be submitted by third parties.

      None of these are trivial problems. I'm not saying that Sequoia Systems has solved all of the them nor that they haven't created anything with bloat or inefficient solutions -- especially if they're relying on MS SQL -- but it's not a job for under 100 lines of perl either. A good voting system is HARD.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  40. Re:How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CARTRIDGE_IMAGE is interesting. FILE_IMAGE? Are these microsoft .cab files?

    EVENT_LOG is an application log. Enough info to retrace steps and regenerate the TALLY tables? If so, this is a first step validation (internal consistency).

    What the heck does TALLY_OVER_VOTE represent?

    TALLY_STATUS eludes to Cartridges again. Getting curious about CARTRIDGE_IMAGE.

  41. Development code / Dropped tables? by fatp · · Score: 1

    I did not download the huge files... But from the website, it seems to be a SQL Server database (backup?)

    I don't know how "strip the MS-SQL header data off", and I think any manual operation will corrupt a database. Personally, I would think they are dropped tables (as they said chunk 40 repeated something from 1-39). Then I can't see any evidence of wrong doing. It is likely that they directory copy the database from development, or had set it up several times.

    Disclaimer: I don't live in USA.

  42. Re:FCC violation = revote? Ans: No. by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?

    Courts are extremely reluctant to order new elections. Elections are very costly and time-consuming and forcing the elected candidate to stand for election again may bias voters against the candidate. Generally, a court is only going to order such a remedy if you (a) have proof of outright fraud that (b) resulted in a change to the results of the election. The mere possibility of affecting the election is not going to be good enough.

    In light of that, minor violations of regulations by creating code that actually works but doesn't follow the regs is not going to overturn an election. As a remedy, that's like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer. It may, however, result in the company getting fined, certain employees getting jail time (if the statute provides), and/or in the machines being decertified for future elections.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  43. cook county need somewhere to hide the dead votein by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cook county need somewhere to hide the dead people voting code.

  44. Re:How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been able to strip out some of the Triggers, Stored Procedures, and Functions. Not sure why these didn't get restored.

    There's a bunch of them in the .bak file. Long night incoming. X_x

    See:

    http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/message/view/The+Main+Study+And+Reporting+Page/15702844

  45. Re:How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    /* Description: Store text image of cartridge data. Among the different
                files that are stored are Tally Summary, Turnout Summary, and
                Operator Log Report. The files can be used to re-canvass cartridge
                data without re-reading the cartridge, and to generate text based
                reports of individual cartridge images.
    */

    Oh, snap?

  46. Re:How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQ by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 1

    They were probably removed with DROP statement which will generally leave them in the database file until the space is reclaimed for storing something useful. This is probably why there's useless junk in the parses they took.

  47. Re:How to restore the .bak file using Microsoft SQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, that makes sense. They dropped them but the database itself didn't reclaim those sections. That completely explains some of the corruption I'm seeing.

    Tricksy hobbitses.

  48. Re:Paper ballots are not immune to software proble by JackSpratts · · Score: 1

    not immune certainly, but verifiable. we audit regularly, and randomly.

    - js.

  49. Ignore the Hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right, Focus on the Software. Forget the doping process.

  50. Could someone please by The+Wild+Norseman · · Score: 1

    could someone please tell me how I will vote in the next election? I'm getting excited to know if I'll vote my conscience this time or if I will cross over to the other side.

    --
    "A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
  51. Which election? And this is server code. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Searching the Internet for a couple of names in the database ("SUSAN MARIE WEBER" "CAROLE B. SCHAUDT" ) suggests that this is the database for an election in Riverside County, California. No, wait.. there also is mention of San Bernardino County. One database serves multiple counties, apparently.

    And this looks like it's for the database in an election server. This doesn't look like code for a voting machine which a voter touches. This server reads the cartridges from the precincts, tallies the votes, and emits reports.

    The closest thing I've found to interpreted code are some "exec (@sql)" invocations, util_GetNum which returns a value from arbitrary SQL, and some complex SQL which seems to generate the layout of the ballots.

    Most of the stuff is database initialization. But why are database initialization commands stored in a database? Does MS SQL store the text of the commands which are used to create an entity, or might this stuff be a transaction log dating to the creation of the database? I don't think they create a database in a votes cartridge, as they use BCP to copy a text file from a cartridge.

  52. I'll bite. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    I was into the subject BEFORE most Americans even knew there were computers being used (long story, but my state official just gave me blank looks when I raised concerns after the vendors showed the demo units.)

    We don't have a security system that exists which allows for anonymous secure computer voting. NOBODY should be able to find out how YOU voted (including your ISP, browser, OS, government... totally anonymous.)

    THE PROBLEM IS SECURITY NOT TECHNOLOGY.
    I don't mean computer security. I mean public security in their vote, in the process, and the people in charge of running the process.
    Its NOT a problem of counting, its a problem of TRUST.
    Multiple attack vectors exist outside of technology which threaten the system-- it is not wise to add more points of attack without removing any (or arguably just a few) of the existing ones. Technology removes transparency to an elite group of experts; of which, only a subset is even allowed to look over the stuff (obviously an expert might tamper with it or steal IP so we can't let just anybody inspect it...) You add more problems than you solve even with a fantasy open source technology without bugs.

    For a while, I still thought hashing/signing paper ballot sheets was a good idea but in reality, it means fake cards or bad computers or flawed OCR can take away legit votes. "Solves" ballot stuffing by adding more red-tape ripe for abuse! The best solution is simple CHEAP ballots that are accounted for at all steps. We know general population numbers by census already; low or high all the ballots are accounted for. Its not fool proof but it indicates large abuse and helps track it. Canada has an overall good setup for a primitive non-runoff system from what I've read.

    Exit polls work so well that they get it right almost all the time unless it is really close. When exit polls fail you know something happened. Its more important to "look good" than to get it right (well that was the excuse in some places to kill exit polls.) Elections could be called by exit polls and the paper hand count would validate it. Re-votes should be much much easier to do; saves a ton of trouble when things look bad.

    Stupid people shouldn't vote; but who decides? We could ban everybody who voted for Bush 04, which would work really well... but someday the winds could still change and you end up filtered out. (Yes, I gave away my bias against recent idiocy; it couldn't have been easier.) What happens when you are the enemy and get somehow market as too stupid? You have to let them all vote. There is a concept known as "the wisdom of the crowd" on which democracy depends upon and would work better if it were not for all the tampering that goes on with the crowd (and situations where mob behavior infects the crowd's sanity - a social virus.)

    Election fraud is a treasonous crime and all the related half steps should reflect the severity of this. May not deter many; however, it should prevent them from doing it again if not encourage them to rat out their boss in a plea bargain.

    Receipts only make people feel good. No way people are bringing back all those receipts for a recount... which is the only way to have a receipt mean anything. I can give you a receipt for anything you wish....pay me now, I'll send it later...

    Eligible voters. big problem:
    -Criminals can't vote, this is ridiculous. its abused like a poll tax (which we still have in some places - don't believe the legal word games!) You hate all criminals? Then you better vote!
    -There is a ton done to stop fake votes that complicates that process. Registration is supposed to help but it causes more trouble than it does good. If everybody was required to vote BY LAW or get fined it does make the problem of multiple voting easier to deal with (the extra voters tend to cancel out and many only "show up".) Lazy non-voters help pay for the system. At least they contribute to the society somehow...
    -Citizenship
    -Migration between districts - this could be solved with intrusive la

  53. Not all stored procedures are "dynamic code" by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    The rules say, "no dynamic code". I'm not a MS-SQL guy, but this article makes it pretty clear that one has to use the MS SQL "EXEC" statement to dynamically evaluate a stored procedure. In my brief look at the databases, I did find some EXEC statements, but not many.

    Just finding an EXEC statement is probably not enough to establish a "smoking gun". If the only variable parts of the stored procedure are parameter value placeholders, then the EXEC may just be serving as a way to encapsulate parameters, which sounds like an attempt to prevent an injection attack. I guess you'd have to inspect the source code that defined the actual values passed into the procedure to be sure.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
  54. The story is not based on fact. by davidmwilliams · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are many good reasons for open source voting system but this story by the Daily Kos is a beat up, and is based solely on the lack of technical ability by the person making the claims. I've actually downloaded the database, restored it successfully in SQL Server 2008 and examined it and there really is no basis to this story. That doesn't mean I support Sequoia, that doesn't mean I support closed voting systems, just merely in this particular instance the story is not based on fact. Here's how to restore it and what you'll find: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28715/1141/

  55. I've done SQL since 1983... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Databases don't need to have a single word of SQL code embedded in the database, if you're talking a real database. [As opposed to MS SQLServer, which I don't know anything about because it isn't considered a heavy-duty DB. If it needs embedded code it wasn't a suitable choice, was it?] Any serious database can host procedural code at any level of difficulty, but need not do so.

    We wrote a system with 800 tables with no procedural code embedded into the DB at all, even though it makes a number of issues easier to deal with, just because we had better controls on the code base outside the DB.

    If Sequoia embedded procedural code into their DB for any reason whatsoever, they violated professional standards and FEC rules. Their machines should be rounded up and treated like illegal slot machines after a raid - pounded into random junk with sledgehammers while the video cameras run. I hesitate to spell out the next step, involving the managers who mandated or allowed such coding style.

    The company should be dissolved, along with all the others, and we should go back to using paper and #2 pencils, which are much harder to shimmy with.
     

    1. Re:I've done SQL since 1983... by mtutty · · Score: 1

      Joe Celko, is that you?

  56. You could have kept reading too by gr8_phk · · Score: 1
    You quote a sentence and cut it off right before the loophole. The text is:

    Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited, except under the security provisions outlined in section 6.4.e

    You can't just cut it off before the word "except" and disregard a whole section just to make your point seem as clear cut as you'd like. There is also text afterword that give a justification. I don't really care for the exception - it just adds confusion. However I don't think any of our law makers are capable of writing anything without throwing in exceptions. Anyway, you were being deliberately misleading when you cut off the prohibition just short of the exception.

    1. Re:You could have kept reading too by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Anyway, you were being deliberately misleading

      If I was trying to be misleading I wouldn't have provided such an obvious link to the full text that I was quoting from, would I?

  57. Just one thing by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    When they start to talk about the cost of all that hand counting some day.... Please ask them to estimate the cost to count your individual vote and compare this to the amount of money you personally pay in taxes. The argument that hand counting is expensive doesn't hold up.

  58. Is BCP shell execution by DB server OK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it good programming practice to have the database server execute a BCP shell command to read data into the database?

  59. Re: Until someone hacks the system... by Phrogman · · Score: 1

    to look for voters who picked their dummy vote (and thus can't confirm their real vote), and switches their real vote to favour a particular candidate of their choosing. Now we have a specific candidate getting all the votes from those who want to confirm to their bosses (or whoever) that they voted for Candidate X (or Proposition X) actually appearing to vote for that candidate according to the system. The system has to track which you picked doesn't it? It has to know which to display when you enter your hash code.

    I like the system we have up here in Canada: vote on a paper slip, stick it in a box. It gets counted and the results are reported in. Its all invigilated by members from various parties to ensure its accuracy - and most important of all, attempting to game the system is extremely difficult because it requires a lot of willing participants scattered over multiple polling stations etc. And of course, you have paper ballots that are physical evidence and much harder to fake. Its not impossible to cheat of course, but it takes more effort. Relying on software to tally votes just means the cheater can focus solely on vulnerabilities in the software - and we are all well aware of just how vulnerable software can be here on /., whether its unintentionally or intentionally on the part of the vendor.

    Might it be possible to assign each voter a randomized hash on a strip of sticky tape that gets stuck to each ballot before the user votes? Its not necessary to relate the assigned code to the name in any way, just to give the ability to confirm that the hash code is valid and was assigned to this election. Then when you go to scan the results you can feed the hash codes through a very simple scanner to confirm that the vote is a legal one? Of course, then we are back to software again. Forget it :P

    --
    "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
  60. eVoting misses the point by sjames · · Score: 1

    All the eVoting misses the point in a big way. It really doesn't matter one little bit if the election system carries out a perfectly fair and perfectly secure election if the typical voter can't look at the process and understand personally that it IS secure and fair and WHY. People understand marks on paper and counting. They understand double checking and they understand both neutral observers and having observers from all parties invited. They understand locked boxes full of paper ballots with marks on them. They understand pull a lever and a punch makes a hole in cardstock, especially if they can watch it happen.

    They do not understand SQL, secure hashes, code audits, or signed firmware. From what we've seen, it's not entirely clear how well Diebold (now Sequoia) understand those things! They don't even have all of the source code to the OS, so how can they certify anything? Try to explain it all and they can hardly be blamed if they think you're just blinding them with science. That's especially true when the vendors jealously guard the whole thing as top secret, even from election officials.

    All that secrecy may well not mean they intend to rig the elections, but it surely does suggest that they wish to hide their non-compliance and shoddy work, which is bad enough. It also leads even the voters who CAN understand the eVoting system to question it's security and fairness. Democracy requires checks and balances, not just against nefarious intent, but also from simple error.

  61. Seems very fitting by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    that this story in my RSS feed is followed by a Newsmax AdSense blurb asking: "Like Palin? Vote Here Now!".

    On a much more sober note, do websites have no say into what is allowed to show in AdSense? Especially if it makes them appear as nothing more than money-grubbing hypocrites? Yes, yes, 'Adblock', etc. - that's missing the point - how about those on work computers with no permission to block such dreck?

  62. And to further the paranoid flames by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming the same folks who would provide a jury-rigged voting database would also provide the jury-rigged program to 'verify' the hash sums, right? Or just a shiny, happy button on a form for a clueless county poll worker to click and be rewarded with MsgBox("Everything's Okey-Dokey!").

  63. two holes in your proposal by epine · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of the best way to make a theory in linguistics bullet proof: making it Turing complete. That creates obstacles in proving with pencil and paper that it can't work. Your proposal is deficient in vitamin T.

    First, the swayzun can take the form of this: if it comes up A we pay you $200, if it comes up !A, you pay us $100. It's going to cost you $100 for sure if neither of your balls is tattooed with the letter A. I'm sure no one accosted at a casino would possibly take up this wager.

    Second, the swayzun can take a more insidious form: better not vote for them darkies. As long as there are at least two melatonin deficient candidates on the ballet, you can cover your ass without ruffling the swayder's white bed sheet.