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Smart Grid Could Pose Threat To Privacy
Presto Vivace writes "Brian Krebs of the Washington Post reports on a study jointly released Tuesday by the Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and the Future of Privacy Forum. It seems that in the process of collecting all that feedback about energy use, utility companies will inevitably collect a great deal of information about us. From the article: 'Instead of measuring energy use at the end of each billing period, smart meters will provide this information at much shorter intervals, the report notes. Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep. For many, this will resonate as a "sanctity of the home" issue, where such intimate details of daily life should not be accessible.'"
It'll mask my activities!
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The power company will be able to determine that I sleep at night and I'm not home during the day.
Or maybe I'm not home at night and I sleep during the day.
And that there is 6 people living in the house, or that when I use power I use inefficient appliances.
Or I have 12 ppl living in the house with efficient appliances.
Personally - I really don't care what kind of dodgy information they could gleen from a smart meter. I only really care about the fact that power could (or will here in Oz) cost more.
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
If I had a crooked friend at the power company, he could tell me when someone in a house I want to rob usually goes to work and also when they do so on a given day.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
The only difference in my at home power usage vs my away power usage is basically a cfl and a TV. I presume that would be drowned out by the AC cycling, the fridge cycling, various fluctuating draws from computers doing updates and interfacing with the internet (ingoing and outgoing, 24/7), etc.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
n/t
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I don't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usage (I'd like to hope). You'd never be able to tell if someone was using a kilo watt of power to run grow lights, or to power and run a heat element on an electric oven range. I guess that is a bad example since the oven would only be on for a little bit whereas the lights would be always on, but the same principle applies. You'd have so much noise with various things plugged in using in some cases fluctuating amounts of power, it would be hard to get much of a signal that would conclusively point to some illegal activity. I really don't think Kyllo vs US is a good reference in this case, although they do have some overlap.
I turn off all the lights and hide in the basement. Then I use the light from my Nintendo GameBoy DS to play with my cat
Seriously...this is just a minor blip in privacy. Pretty soon everyone's going to have (at least) some solar cells and batteries so the electricity generation AND usage will be completely on site and nobody will know.
600W Solar Cells are available for a couple of hundred dollars... an inverter for another $100... a couple of deep cycle marine batteries... hell for $1000, you can get half your house off the grid in a sunny location. DO IT. NOW.
If I had a crooked friend at the power company, he could tell me when someone in a house I want to rob usually goes to work and also when they do so on a given day.
...or a crooked friend at targets place of work tells you when they get in or the low tech method of who's home by simply driving by and see if a car is parked in driveway... wait... that's possible now w/out a smart grid..... oooh nooo's! I NEED TO GET HOooome NOW!
I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!
I knows!
Granting warrants for excessive electricity use is routine in the USA.
Here's one from 2004: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html
Here's one from 2009: http://hamptonroads.com/node/510056
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Well of course not, that is why they have rules that allow them to listen in on your phone and email just because you have a funny name.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they use this to determine which houses to watch at night because crime usually happens at night, so houses that are active at night are more likely to be engaged in illegal drug sales/use/etc or whatever other idiot shit reason they come up with.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
We must decide... Will we remain Luddites or join the hive mind? Attempting to both leverage technology and leverage privacy is an exercise in futility. Those choosing to straddle the fence rather than embracing one or the other will eventually find that someone else has already decided for them.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
If crooked friend at nobel prize committee, I would have them give you an award for how much of a true genius you are. Why not try a better industry to have crooked friends in. Your Child's School, Home Security, GPS, Court System, Police
That's why now they use some other BS but acceptable reason to get a warrant (ie: informant, "smelled something", etc.) when they notice something with a thermal imager. I'm sure they'll do the same for electricity usage if it proved judge unfriendly on it's own.
What they need to do is broadcast the present price of electricity and have the meter bill accordingly. Then get the total bill every month. This enables the "consumer" to regulate their usage to reduce cost (smoothing usage as the utilities want). It also avoids the need for large amounts of data sent back. There are usually simple solutions, and the fact that companies don't use the simple solutions generally points to an agenda other than what is claimed.
I run my house off of batteries and charge them using off-peak, cheap power.
Oh wait, my usage pattern indicates I've got some large, expensive batteries!
Back to the drawing board.
Driving by the house one time is a lot different than being given access to logs over an extended period of time and being able to notice behavioral patterns. How many times a day are you going to be able to drive by without looking suspicious? Pretty scary when you're thinking in terms of a house being robbed, but fucking nightmare level spooky when you think about the possibility of a large company being attacked.
Anything that is internet-connected and useful poses a threat to your privacy. Period.
I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.
Oh no, the power company can determine my peak power usage. They can determine that I leave in the morning and get home at night.
In exchange, the smart grid promises some big benefits. As usual, a trade-off.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
PG&E is using (for electricity) a GE I-120 smartmeter with a Silver Spring Networks interface. (Installer said they plan to install the associated network on the poles shortly, after which no more meter readers wandering the neighborhood.)
According to the meter's description on GE's site it uses IP and "industry standard crypto" over a two way radio link to a network running their software. It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded. (I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already.)
It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use. It can be used to shut the power off in case of "billing trouble". It doesn't do net metering. Instead it treats backfeeding the net as a sign of cheating - an old mechanical-meter hack consisting of unplugging and inverting the meter to "run it backward" a few days per month. (It records the events around the reversal - unplug, replug-inverted, unplug, replug-normal - with high time resolution, to be used as evidence if it goes to court.)
If you want to do net metering once this is installed you have to get the power company to come out again and install another meter, set up for "two-way metering".
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights. I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows! /quote>Hey Glenn Beck!
Is dat u?
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
Maybe a person with illegal growing in mind could canvas the neighborhood, find out the upper bound from the normal "wasteful" electric use, and then "fly under the radar" and only grow subject to that cap on electric use.
On the other hand, maybe all of the folks with big electric bills are growing?
Wow. Reading that first one from 2004 seems to indicate that the officer involved must have been shown Reefer Madness as a training film at the police academy. Further he appears to have been told "When writing your affidavit for a search warrant you should strive to make it sound as lurid as the stories in the True Crime Detective magazines you incessantly masturbate to."
He wants to search for 'controlled substances, including but not limited to marijuana, also known as "Weed", "grass", "the Devil's weed" and "Smoke"'.
What a buffoon.
Or leave a note on the door for the milkman.
Or maybe the mail piling up is a sign.
Why is it that guys like you claim the whole counter-terrorism thing is a way for the goverment to scare people, when you scare yourself far better? Watch out, I can track your /. account and tell when you are on holiday.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional (where was Congress given authority to completely ban a naturally-growing plant?) before this Smart Grid is implemented, and then it won't matter if you are using grow lights or not.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
Just get a Crown Victoria painted in your local police colors, or rent a boom truck and install your own web cam on a convenient utility pole.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ccs/news/?id=332
"The Drug Unit asked Enmax, the local electricity provider, to install a digital recording ammeter (DRA) to record power consumption in Gomboc’s house. Enmax complied without insisting on a warrant. After five days, Enmax gave the police a graph that showed Gomboc’s use of electricity was consistent with running a grow operation. [...] At trial, the Crown conceded that police could not have obtained a search warrant without the data from Enmax."
So, at least in Canada, not only has someone already been subject to a search warrant over electrical usage but the appeals court has ruled it is legal to base a search warrant on someone's electrical usage.
Smart grid is really needed to provide the ability to support electric cars without taking out the power system, and to provide peak-demand load management for people who use power at peak times (ie. businesses, during the day). People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.
The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants there is minimal value to shifting residential power demand for most people -- their demand is at night, since there aren't many housewives hanging out at home anymore. From what I've read, energy usage isn't the problem -- the problem is providing sufficient power during periods of peak demand. Additionally, many, many places don't have the necessary last-mile power infrastructure to handle the electric cars that are supposedly going to drive increased consumer demand.
Plus, nobody has plugin electric cars, and the excessive costs will keep it that way. Why would you buy a $40,000 car that is similar to a compact car and requires upgrading your home electrical system to own? Just buy a diesel Jetta, which has a far lower TCO. Hell, hybrid diesel-electric cars are probably more practical.
Upgrading the infrastructure of every side street in every city is going to cost billions and take years. And it will meet resistance -- residential neighborhoods with trees and overhead lines will find the new supply lines also mean that the utility company will eviscerate every tree.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
bunch of arm-waving idiocy.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
"Eight armed narcs raided the Dagy home on March 19 and found absolutely nothing. No evidence of pot anywhere, not even stashed in the children's toys. Seems that the coppers mistook the family's constant use of the dishwasher, washer/dryer, three computers, four ceiling fans, and other electronic devices as evidence of a felony drug operation. Oops. The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department. Sadly, we'd recommend that the Dagys not hold their collective breath."
I hate drug cops and homeland security. They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
I think we're going to have to accept that a number of entities are going to have all kinds of information about us. One potential solution is to create meaningful regulations that balance individual interests/rights against those of corporate entities (corporate in the broadest sense, inc. state entities). Perhaps something along the lines of the confidentiality that exists between an individual and various professionals/clergymen.
Assuming your local police use Crown Vics.
My brother has a white ex-cop Crown Vic, and it's extremely interesting how much attention such a car draws and how it affects the behavior of other drivers. People spend quite a bit of time sizing you up even as you leave the car, trying to assess whether you might be an undercover cop or something.
If you seek attention, an ex-cop car gets way more of it while costing way less than something like a Corvette.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
That's the right way to deal with this, technical measures are pointless because the police will always be able to get that info (with current tech 3 40w bulbs give a noticeably different pastern), making it useless without a warrant is what's key, some sort of guaranteed anonymization of the data would be nice too (because while the electricity company need long term statistics so they can shame their supply to demand, they don't need YOUR long term stats).
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
The really personal stuff runs on batteries.
Last time i checked most people carry a cellphone which authorities can use to locate your person at all times.
BUT electricity usage can be used to get a warrant to search your home:
"An unusually high electricity bill alerted police to a possible marijuana-growing operation, the warrant said."
1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765
Not just a large company being attacked, but being able to put together pieces of data not just on the large company, but on their employees. Then, if the corporate HQ isn't hardened against attack, it wouldn't be hard to compromise one of the people there (extortion, or just a simple home invasion to grab corporate IDs and credentials).
The only way I can see this can be allievated is to have something that stores power like a large UPS or battery array. This would be timed to charge up at random intervals, and be large enough to handle the power spikes of a residence or business.
That's quite a lot of hope you have there.
for PEBKAC.
In the days of mechanical telephone switches, the telco swore up and down that my mother hadn't paid the bill. When they sent out the guy to carry out the disconnect order, he said she could make one last phone call. She showed him the canceled check and told him he could make it to his boss, or he could disconnect the phone and never show his face on the property again. He said sorry, lady, I got my orders.
The Nuremberg trials invalidated that excuse. (Aaaaand Godwin's Law is validated for this thread)
They tried to make nice later. Mom told them to leave, or face criminal trespass charges. And for the next 16 years, we made do with no telephone. Mom and Dad finally relented, post-Bell breakup, when we had two elderly grandparents who were taking turns being ill.
Now, four carrier buy-outs later, my parents are having "billing trouble" again while the new system owners figure out what the hell they're doing.
It should be a 4th amendment issue, but it is not.
If your power use suddenly spikes, expect the cops at your door to ask about what you're doing. Had this happen in college when a roommate setup a bunch of tropical fish tanks.
Even if they legalize it, it will still be taxed and if it's taxed people will still be growing it illegally. However, I'd like to think the government has better things to do.
Ok, sure, so the smart grid may leak private information...
But my bigger concern now is this whole social security number "thing" where it's used as a primary database key for all sorts of companies, both within and outside of the government, is one of the primary keys to identity theft, and the government requires it's use for government things (where it's well protected), but doesn't prevent it's use by third parties (where it's *NOT* well protected). The most the government says is that you don't have to give your SSN to a non-government entity, but they can refuse to do business with you because of it. So as long as you don't need insurance or healthcare, you can do a pretty good job of protecting against identity theft.
Oh, wait, this report is from Canada, where they *DO* have requirements about the protection of their equivalent to the SSN...
Sean
Do you think?
What you do is get a real Luxury boat - like a Merc Grand Marqis, with all the limo fittings. Then remove badges and attach the bog-ugly matte grille and bumper bars. It doesn't even need to say "Interceptor" on it.
BTW.
Do you think the Buttles, and other inhabitants of Brazil even imagined that they lived in a police state? Of course, not! Nor do those with whom we work and dine.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.) that have a similar or greater amount of data. How does this pose any new problems?
I'd certainly like to see more clearly defined legal standards for how this kind of data may be used, but I'd assume that the tangled mess we have now would apply to the data that the power companies gather as well.
Except the fourth amendment doesn't apply in Ontario.
The idea here is to NOT be conspicuous. I'm rather sure that attempting to impersonate a police officer would attract about as much attention as a van labeled Flowers By Irene parked outside 24-7.
The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
Already . I know when my water bill went crazy 2years ago, I called up the water company and they emailed me an hour by hour breakdown of my usage for the past 6months and I am not on any smart grid yet, thats just the information they keep on their net-connected-computers after they read my water meter.
Also we also know that electricity usage has been used to look for marijuana growers for some time (example: http://www.kooky.com.my/node/1360).
We either have to get rid of the systems we already have, or not worry about the incoming systems, because they aren't providing that much more info.
(different AC here) I bet that is a typo, try a 60 watter for that sort of money. You also need a charge controller for a good rig.
Why can't the power company provide the information the consumer needs, and the consumer has a controller in their house that manages appliances and electricity use (without data feedback)? I don't recall the gas companies asking for control of our thermostats, so why should this be different*? You could opt-in to have your controller send data to the power company (or have the meter reader get the data when he comes around), but there would be no NEED for the power company to get information back. The power company could closely monitor each block if they want more data on what areas are helping with the smart grid effort without concerns over privacy.
I've heard about the smart grid for years and I know I can't be the first to ask this- maybe I'm missing something?
*Brownouts would be the main reason, but if everyone is getting real-time cost information (and set their controllers accordingly), the power companies would see a much better response when they jack up the rates during peak hours. I expect the system will work a lot better once they have a proper feedback loop.
My webcomic
I "knew" a person that "grew" marijuana.
I once asked him, generally speaking, where he grew.
What he told me was that he grew in a barn up in the mountains. Why in a barn, I asked him. Because this far out from the city, the electric meters were not able to reach cell towers, and thus could not report daily usage rates. The meter reader came out once a month so all they had was monthly usage figures (one of them old "spinny" type meters). He did this because the daily usage data was used to look for electric usage that followed a specific pattern, primarily a 11-12 hour peak usage period that would indicate growing lights. That, and the fact that nobody had a reason to be parked across the street with a FLIRgun or flying helicopters overhead. That is what he claimed, anyways.
I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring, all spliced together into a coil, all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines. Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well. At least that is what he claimed...
You've already been stabbed 9 times. How much more is one little scratch going to hurt?
Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional...
The constitution is only a piece of paper. I hear a lot of rhetoric about rule of law and not of men, but it always boils down to a group of powerful people allowing just enough freedom to others to do as they tell you. That currently means beating and imprisoning you to protect you from that naturally growing plant. So, for the sake of your well being, light up a government sanctioned cigarette and down a bottle of tax revenue providing bourbon.
I'm in the midst of the smart grid, as a designer and a homeowner. I hate every part of it.
Automatic meter reading has been around for a while. It started with the Drive-by reads, where your meter was equipped with a small RF transmitter and a van was equipped with the receiver. Later, they used power-line communications that transmitted the data from the home to the substation, where the power company had its receiver hardware, and a telephone quality line to the utility. The down side to both methods is that it took almost a month to get every meter read, just in time to start again.
We have come a long ways since then, yet those initial technologies are still leading providers of Automatic Meter Reading (AMR). Some other providers came in with faster data rates, allowing for smart cap banks, integrated disconnects, demand billing, and outage detection. This created the AMI market (i = infrastrucure)
The whole "smart grid" thing is way too complicated. All you really need are a few bits per minute broadcast from the power company, telling you how their current load status. A few more bits from your local electric meter about your own current load would be helpful. Loads that draw more than about 300 watts and can run unattended needs to be receiving those bits, which in a home mostly means major appliances and HVAC.
During periods of power scarcity, the power company can send out, in increasing order of need, requests to drop excess load, warnings that excess load will push your electric bill into extra high rate territory, and finally an order to drop below a given load or the electric meter will cut your power. Or, at the other end of the scale, "power is really cheap right now, good time to charge electric cars, self-clean ovens, etc."
Businesses would probably sign up for demand pricing, where power during peak periods above some threshold is very expensive, and would have their own local controller devoted to keeping the cost down by making freezer cabinet compressors take turns, cutting off some lighting, and such. You can get that now; data transmission from the power company just means it has more info about the power supply situation.
Very little info needs to flow back from the meter to the utility. A reading once an hour is sufficient, if not overkill.
We do not need something that gives every appliance an IPv6 address.
Unfortunately, there's a pork-laden subsidy program for "smart metering" that encourages meters to talk too much. This is becoming a boondoggle like ethanol.
Well, the problem is that the 4th Amendment doesn't apply at all in this situation. There is no state action. The 4th Amendment protects against encroachment by the federal government, and by incorporation via the 14th Amendment, also provides protection against state and local government actions.
However, the conduct here is being done by a private entity. In addition, they will almost certainly have consent to collect the information as part of the long form contracts you're required to sign to use their service. While the contracts can be attacked on grounds of adhesiveness and unfair surprise, the 4th Amendment simply does not apply.
The information is not being collected by the police for the purposes of an adversarial proceeding. If the police were collecting this information without your consent, there might be an issue. That's not to say federal or state privacy laws may not be applicable. However, the 4th Amendment certainly is not.
IANAEE but it seems strange there is no home battery that would blur usage, rather energy spikes are passed to the grid.
Put another way, what happens when lightning strikes? Is there a spike passed back?
A home ought to be able to hide usage of a kettle by drawing from a secondary battery which fills up gradually from the grid, my understanding is that in fact this should be happening and the battery works at night when power is cheaper.
Must the smart grid operate at high resolution to be efficient? Most high energy usages by homes would be happening at the same time of day I'd imagine. More danger would come I expect from being able to detect when a home is unoccupied.
Unfortunately, it's already happening in many cities in the US. I'm too lazy to look up others, but here is an article about Austin's little known data mining program.
need long term statistics so they can shame their supply to demand
How'd they figure out how to shame supply to demand? That must be a very valuable, patentable business process. I hope they've already applied for the patent.
It sounds like he's just covering all his bases, and it's just boilerplate cop-legalese. His list keeps going on and on.
The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department.
The rest of the world would like an apology from the Dagys for their unrestrained use energy. I guess we won't hold our breath either.
What would stop the DEA from snooping nearly at will via secret subpoena of the data at utility companies, to further the "War on Drugs" to attempt to better detect grow ops? If you use standardized domestically available lighting and water pump apparatus, in short order they would come with smart grid compatible chips in the power supply supplying data to the house smart meter via PLC over the power cables themselves. Then without your knowledge (since most people won't realize their home equipment has embedded PLC modems), their appliances will snitch to the smart meter.
Yeah, I look real forward to DEA no-knock SWAT teams busting in because I like to use halogen lighting while I read in my bed every night. Oh, and thanks to the PATRIOT act and other anti-terror legislation, once the DEA gets its claws on the data, DHS and other government agencies will be all over you too. Imagine state tax agencies busting you for false property values and reporting lower taxes because you didn't disclose the various improvements you made to your house, which contained various electronic gear which snitched on you to the power company.
It's almost as bad as someone operating a high powered RFID reader outside your home. Sure, you would get hardly any useful data now, but RFID tags in consumer goods will only continue to increase (and for cost reasons will not include self-termination fusing), and the cost of embedding a PLC modem chip for smart meter/smart grid compatibility will drop as dedicated IC's come to market. Hell, it could easily sneak in under EnergyStar or UL certification rules and you would be none the wiser.
Though once the paranoia over stuff like this sets in, you'll start to see people live in faraday cage boxes with power provided through the cage via a non-conductive motor shaft and a generator on the inside, along with fiber optic network access.
I only have one statement: WTF are we doing? Anyone knows prima facie (or on the face of it) that this is a 4th amendment issue. I don't care that they actually caught a few real marijuana growers this way, looking at someone's power use is an illegal search (when used for law enforcement reasons). This is spelled out by the cases involving the previously mentioned Dagy family, and your fish tanks.
The reason this is so obvious is because of where it leads to:
Do we now have to start clearing our energy use through government officials? For instance, if I want to setup a server farm in my apartment, each blazing at 750W each, should I just EXPECT a visit AND SEARCH of my apartment?? No, this is a privacy issue. Simply put: illegal search.
Net necessarily. I can brew beer for my own consumption without paying tax on it. I do pay tax on ingredients though. I guess if I sold it I would have to pay the tax. I suspect if they actually go through with legalization/decriminalization they will allow some amount of home grow for personal use without flipping out about it.
All points of time and space are connected.
Open freezer door, insert hair drier.
Figure THAT one out, you communist Progress Energy bastards!
Many states already have legalized marijuana for use by doctors (for prescriptions). But the U.S. is arbitrarily over-ruling the states, and arresting those States' citizens/doctors, in direct violation of this law: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
how about a in home dc bus to cut down on power block use that put out a lot of heat / eat up a lot space.
I hate to break it to you, but this thing can know everything you type on your computer, assuming it is plugged in. Surely you haven't forgotten about the keylogger over power lines thing from a while back?
So if you want to see some interesting graphs of power measurement, check out the data I'm recording for the supercomputing 2009 conference .. http://measurement.sc09.org/sustainability/
-- Troy Benjegerdes, hozer@hozed.org http://grid.coop
I use to keep saltwater reef aquariums. I even used "grow lights" over them. In the hobby we hear about people getting their doors kicked in at 6am on a Sunday from time to time... Seems a reef tank needs light 12 hours a day just like...
The story that you reference, I wonder if the cops kicked out all the drywall while they inspected. I've heard of that and there's no compensation.
They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens
20 of 25 raids that day resulted in illegal drugs being found.
These cops are enforcing the law. Don't like it? Get the law changed. We do elect our lawmakers, you know.
Yes, it is time for sane drug laws (or no drug laws?)
www.NoJailForPot.com
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department.
The rest of the world would like an apology from the Dagys for their unrestrained use energy. I guess we won't hold our breath either.
How do I mod this guy troll? This poor family was raided by 8 armed men, probably scaring the ____ out of them, and all he can think about it the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 degree increase they might possibly be causing. (Assuming global warming is caused by California's use of hydroelectric power - which seems unlikely.)
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
Clearly with more-and-more of our information being held by outside entities (megacorps and government), the United States needs to copy this protection from the EU Charter of Rights:
Article 8. Protection of personal data
1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.
2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.
3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I was briefly involved with a project proposal in Dallas back in late 2001 that involved installing meters that recorded electricity use at 6 second intervals to implement finer grained billing. Various "features" of the electricity monitoring discussed were data mining for exactly the patterns discussed in the article, in addition to detection of illegal activity. The proposal never got off the ground, so I never had to decide whether I wanted to be involved in such a project.
... about internet connections, everytime you visist a website you hit a bunch of ad and tracking servers, and most people do not have proper anti-information leaking programs on their systems.
You can gain the same information in a multitude of ways, privacy simply cannot survive onslaught of advancing technology where we want to use that technology to scientifically monitor everything possible to increase our understanding of complex systems.
Well I'm just glad I live in a town small enough that it only has one stoplight and no one would care to put cameras in. Still, this kind of observance never ends well.
What if the information is kept strictly in the system and encrypted so that no one can access it except the system. Then the system generates the proper aggregate reports. This would protect individuals rights to privacy while allowing a mindless system access to the sensitive information and manage the grid properly. Surely aggregate information is all the power company people would need to operate a smart grid. (Both aggregate across a household over a period and aggregate of all customers in real time)
Now of course there could be questions about back doors, hackers, etc but at least no one would be able to legally use the information against you in court or to obtain a search warrant (I am assuming that would be part of the 'deal').
Maybe I am missing something huge, so please let me know if I am, but this sort of solution seems like a reasonable way to get both of best worlds.
PJM does this already,
http://oasis.pjm.com/drate.html
This is my sig.
It could well come down to it that Scott McNealy was actually right when he said that we had no right to privacy. In other words, the social interest in aggregating all the data about us, and its utility to society, might well outweigh our right to privacy. Think about it.
This is my sig.
Electricity usage information wants to be free.
Exception Duck - may or may not contain chicken.
Here are some possible positives:
The energy company doesn't have to come out and read the meter. Great, saves them a few jobs, gets some people unemployed. But you don't need a continuous monitoring of the meter for that. Just a once-a-month dial-in at the end of the month (every other month in my area) from the device to the company. There is no need to require traffic the other way around.
The energy company can tell your house when it is a good time to use a lot of power (eg. dishwashers etc.). Again, a single command from the utility company to the meters to switch and enable specific meters. European countries have done it for years without the need of a full two-way communication grid. It works similar to an X10 signal, in the 0-cross some digital data is inserted that switched between 2 electricity meters. The end user will want to decide anyway whether or not they want to use a heavy device in the middle of a peak period so it's not really a good idea to turn on/off specific outlets because people are stupid and will find a way to abuse it and if they're smart enough, sue for money (hang an old person that needs an oxygen tank to that outlet that gets switched off in the morning).
The energy company wants to turn off your electricity remotely. That might require some more authentication to prevent abuse but as soon as something goes systematically wrong with it (wrong house id gets sent through or any random issue that spring up with these types of companies and their software) things are going to get ugly and the government as well as the end-user will require somebody to physically disconnect the system.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
To a degree, up here in Canada (lower mainland of Vancouver) the police already monitor power consumption of homes and apartments for marijuana grow ops. One thing that people don't notice/realize is that a grow op actually has a rather specific power signature. Homes with grow-ops are typically yearly rental/lease agreement homes. The growers themselves do not live at the property. The end result is a static high power draw that keeps the lights and hydropondics gear running 24/7. This is VERY different from even the most excessive of home power uses. Unless you're running a commericaial dishwashing/laundry/whatever out of your home that operates 24/7 you're going to have a VERY different bit of power consumption. Add on to the fact that it's not the only actual investigation technique. Grow Ops are typcailly seldom attended all the time, so some basic surveillance would reveal the difference between you being a power hog and you growing a crop in your basement.
more on topic however is the fact that the power company is the one watching, not the police.
they're not exactly like a phone company though, since in most areas in the US there is only a single, quasi-chartered, heavily regulated utility entity.
The problem is no longer about privacy. It is about how to protect us so that we can safely live publicly and putting in place the right triggers for when violations occur.
The electric companies too are subjected to the new orders of the world. Their activities are just as trackable as ours are to them. In exchange for them tracking us, we should be able to track them with regards to our information, and they should have to pay for their mistakes.
It may take a long time, but by the time the courts are through with "information breach" lawsuits, the companies will come to the conclusion that holding on to all this information is not worth the risk. As long as the laws pass that prevent them from selling it, trust me, they will destroy it.
There is such a thing as too much information.
PS. Dear Privacy Advocates: They just want to make money, not harm your kids.
The US public demanded that the Federal government do something about drugs. Originally the Feds said they were powerless, but due to popular demand, laws were passed to deal with the dealers ;)
The banning of certain types of firearms during the 1920's was also due to public outcry and pressure on the Feds to do 'something about it'.
Well, I guess that answers my question of whether Superman could legally gather evidence for the police using his X-Ray vision.
Good to know. Now I can stop lining my walls with lead and kryptonite.
Now, need to find a case relating to super-hearing.
If you believe you live in a police state, then why don't you move to a place that you feel isn't a police state? Or is there such a place?
Ah, but parent was referring to warrantless monitoring of hourly electricity usage.
No he wasn't. The circumstances are exactly the same.
In Kyllo the cops used the results from the IR monitor to obtain a search warrant.
In the two referenced cases (out of hundreds if not thousands all very similar) the electricity consumption was used to obtain a search warrant.
Either way - end result was a search warrant.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
So let's see if I've got this straight: pot stays illegal, which means it's very profitable to grow it and sell it. So that would justify the cost of installing expensive off-the-grid tech such as solar panels, heat pumps, etc. And the cost of some kind of storage for all that power.
Can anybody doubt that, even as we speak, some clever little bugger is writing software that will provide the "smart meter" with a generic family profile while the illegal stuff bleeds a bit of power off the grid and a lot from the Grey Cup".
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
That instead of drawing power from the grid synchronously with its use, instead charges a bank of batteries (and, if they use the smart grid to charge different rates at peak vs off-peak, pick the time when its cheapest) and then uses the battery bank to supply power in real time.
Cops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy's house (from their patrol car across the street).
Just as divorce lawyers queue up to extract records of electronic toll collection records, cops will be slavering at the doors of power companies looking for evidence of "unauthorized indoor agriculture" power usage patterns, most likely without warrants. They'll go on fishing trips that will make the bluefin tuna fishery look like a bunch of kids with droplines and bent pins.
family's constant use of ... three computers
That will teach them! Those Folding @ Home running bastards! ;)
A lot of /.ers are pointing out that this is the logical tradeoff for the gains that smart-metering promises us. Some are suggesting that we do without. I say it makes far more sense to strengthen our privacy laws, so that this kind of thing is so clearly off limits from data sharing that no non-criminal consider it.
For example, I'm a member of a local (ballroom) dancing club. I'm organizing a Thanksgiving Dinner, but the privacy laws here are so strong that it was made to me very clear that I *must* delete the club's (snail-)mailing list from my computer after I send out the invitations.
There are indeed tradeoffs between any level of internet-connected progress and our privacy, but it's shortsighted to think that the only response can be "get your gov't hands off my...!"
www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
Be very very careful. Environmental nut jobs on soapboxes can be very dangerous (or at the least stupid).
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
Amen, Is there a single reason why it's still illegal that's not pulled out some 80's propaganda. I'm pretty more people die from tylenol every year then pot. (100 people per year die from acetaminophen)
If your argument is that there is no reason to call state X a 'police state' then you should maybe provide definition of what you think constitutes a police state. I am not saying here that GP was right or wrong in his assessment but if you disagree then provide arguments that could be used to verify who is right.
Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep.
- Two
- When the cars are on the drive
- Awake during the day, asleep at night.
There, now everybody knows. Oh no, I'm going to be identity thefted / terrorismised / the thought police are going to put me in Room 101 because I go to sleep when the sun sets.
This story is more inflammatory than elephantitis.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Either move out, or stay and try to change things, but don't just stay and sit at the side in piss-and-moan mode.
... battery-powered vibrators?
Stated like a true parrot.
1) Quit listening to the propaganda from the Big Brother, police state.
2) If you think that potent cannabis is something new, where have you been for the last few millennia? I remember Sativa strains from the 70's and 80's that were far superior to the (often) hydroponically grown strains of today. I hear crap like "It's not like the marijuana you smoked in your college days. It's worse than HEROIN now!" from police spokespeople and the like. Ignorance or malice... it's still false.
3) Cannabis does not have dangerous synergistic effects with alcohol. Maybe you'd peter out on drinking earlier in the evening but it isn't dangerously toxic. (unlike the synergistic effects of, say, barbiturates or tranquilizers with alcohol)
4) Cannabis does not cause psychosis. There are all kinds of studies with false correlations. Just because samples of schizophrenics and psychotics also tend to use cannabis and other drugs doesn't mean it caused, or even exacerbated the imbalance.
You really ought to get out more. Go to a place where a sizable portion of the population uses cannabis every day of their lives (like Canada, for example). They have jobs, businesses, families and homes. They aren't psychotic, they aren't driving dangerously and they aren't dead. Hell, I know people who have been smoking cannabis for over 50 years and it hasn't done them the harm that has been promised.
It's not completely harmless, but harmless enough that it doesn't warrant the prejudice that it gets.
Cannabis itself won't make a loser out of you... it's just that in America, they will see to it that it does.
long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.
This has been disproved again and again - most recently in England. It would be more accurate to say "*if* a person has a pre-disposition to psychosis long term abuse of THC *may* statistically increase their chances of psychosis by a non-negligible amount"
Rational thought is the only true freedom
The legal basis for the right to privacy was first/best explained in a Harvard Law Review paper by a pair of gentlemen who both later became US Supreme Court justices http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/privacy/Privacy_brand_warr2.html
I think they know a bit more about the law and what rights it protects than this "McNealy" guy.
(Assuming global warming is caused by California's use of hydroelectric power - which seems unlikely.)
You're 100% right about the GP being a troll, but only 14.5% right about CA using hydroelectric power.
Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
By your interpretation, that was itself an ad-hominem attack and YOU are sounding like a politician.
Raising reptiles is much the same way.... heated rooms, UV lights, lots of water use, etc.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case in Canada: http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc67/2004scc67.html
Assuming global warming is caused by California's use of hydroelectric power - which seems unlikely.
Actually there's an argument to be made that hydro contributes significantly to global warming. Rotting vegetation from the land that was flooded creates methane. Methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Privacy is already gone for the vast majority of people on the planet. The best anyone can hope for now is anonymity.
5, 10, 15 years from now, you'll be able to snap a picture of someone, upload it to Google Faces, and get back every single picture of that person on the internet. Some enterprising person will write a bit of software that reads the tags and connects them to public information sources about the person. There will probably be software that snatches up tons of publicly available writing samples of the person and compares it to a "signature" that has a reasonable degree of accuracy in figuring out who that person is. There will be other tools that let anyone do some basic snooping through archives to find other references to that person from other sources (like a Google stalk, but a bit more in-depth and the tool will tell clueless people how to be more efficient in tracking someone). If the footage from surveillance systems ever becomes public, you can bet that someone will figure out how to track an individual's movements. It will, in short, be trivial to get a work-up on people that's about as complete as you can imagine any private investigator, but you'll be able to do it on the fly, from home.
Our privacy is already gone, most of us just don't know it yet. The best that we can do is to make as sure as possible that all this surveillance data that is being collected becomes part of the public domain which will ironically help limit abuse.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
If I had a crooked friend at the power company, he could tell me when someone in a house I want to rob usually goes to work and also when they do so on a given day.
...or a crooked friend at targets place of work tells you when they get in or the low tech method of who's home by simply driving by and see if a car is parked in driveway... wait... that's possible now w/out a smart grid..... oooh nooo's! I NEED TO GET HOooome NOW!
Except in your example, the crook needs to know who lives at a particular address and where they work. In the original example all they need to know is the address.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
The authorities have used power use to identify pot growers in the past. Generally, someone growing pot indoors on a scale large enough to make a living at it uses a lot more power than an ordinary person in a similar residence.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
...for grid independence, household by household. Almost any normal residence can be fully supplied with electricity by a relatively small number of wind turbines and solar panels. And the efficiency of these devices is increasing every day. Screw the grid.
Doesn't matter.
Unconstitutional laws are null-and-void. It's as if they never existed. The proper way to ban marijuana would have been to add an amendment such as "Congress shall have power to ban or limit access to plants or drugs considered dangerous to the people." THEN these laws would be constitutional. Otherwise not.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional
Yeah, and Lessig won the Eldred case. Oh wait...
Free Martian Whores!
Nothing new. They used to bust mob money laundring operations by showing that profits from the company grossly exceeded the possible profit based on the electricity used by the business. In other words, they didn't run their machines enough to manufacture enough products to have enough revenue, so the revenue had to be from an illegal source.
>>>I've heard of that and there's no compensation.
If that happened to me I'd sue for recovery of the thousands-of-dollars lost repairing the damaged drywall
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Except that since it's smoked it causes all the problems of smoke inhalation. Over time this can be a big problem (asthma, repeat-bronchitis, emphysema (trying not to use the modifier 'chronic' here)). It is just as bad as alcohol (throat and stomach cancer, cirrhosis of the liver, brain damage). Please don't say that any drug is 'safe', just 'safer'.
I would love to get access to that data. It could easily tell me which companies are working overtime and at what capacity. I could then correlate this to all public companies and trade based on that.
So... I hope that secure that info.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
5 families had their personal privacy shattered by a bunch of men with big fucking guns for absolutely no good reason.
I think it is not as simple as you suggest - there is a lot of people that want war on drugs to continue and like the bans. To get trough to their brains with the message that e.g. education is cheaper and more effective than prisons is not possible. I had this discussions number of times and lack of education on the subject of drugs even among physicians is staggering. There is just enough people out in the open silly enough to believe that a plant like this can make you die if it is not banned. The hysteria in media just reflects this.
No because the cops will simply ask for the data from the electric companies and the companies will voluntarily give them the data.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
You are buying electricity, it's not private. DOn't lie it? Make your own electricity.
It's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
the smokinggun-linked warrant is obviously invalid. on the 2nd page, where the ossifer states his qualifications, there is a missing comma:
"...i am familiar with the manner in which controlled substances, including marijuana are produced, ..."
this should never have passed due to this defect...that's why we need legal compilers;-)
I wasn't suggesting he should move. I was just asking why he didn't. Lots of people leave their home countries if they find them unpleasant. They are often known as "refugees"; you may have heard the term once or twice.
I've heard this ridiculous claim that marijuana is "more potent" for years now- if it were getting that much more potent for 50 years, it'd be over 150% THC by now!
I think what has happened is that possibly it has been bred to have on average 1-5% more THC overall, or they have realized that strain A generally produces more potent smoke than strain B, so it gets grown more often. But the major effect is that unlike the 1940's and 1950's, they don't take the entire plant, grind it up, and sell it all- now they harvest only the flowering buds, where the THC is concentrated, and you aren't getting the "filler" of branches, stems, fan leaves, etc.
So the marijuana isn't really all that more potent, it's just that it's not "cut" with as much garbage as it used to be. This is a good thing, since it means that you'll actually smoke less for the same effect, thus minimizing side effects of the act of smoking.
http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
And the 80's propaganda was pulled out of the 70's propaganda, which was pulled from the 60's propaganda, which was pulled... you see where I'm going with this.
As far as anyone can tell, there has never* been any scientific or rational reason marijuana should be illegal. Oh, apart from keeping the lawyers, cops, judges and the privately run prisons busy...
http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
Sorry, the point was that renters have either no, or next to no, bargaining power. They take what is offered, or they live on the street.
I may not consider most leases I've signed contracts of adhesion, but I *HAVE* considered most of the unconscionable. A court might not so consider them, but *I* do. And I consider that a fair description of most rental agreements I've seen. (To be fair, renting requires an extreme amount of faith in those to whom one rents. This doesn't make the terms fair, but it gives some explanation as to why the owner feels free to demand them.)
If you want to understand the relationship between the landlord and the renter, look at the term "land lord" and study it's history, back at least to the Norman Conquest. The lord of the land was a friend or supporter of the kind, and granted the land as a kind of "facility manager" in return for paying the king for the use of it, and was expected to extract these payments and more from those who lived on that land. The US basically copied the English system. There were amendations necessary because of the availability of unseated land, but they were generally restricted as much as possible. But all the best land was owned by the friends of the rulers (whoever they happened to be...it varied between the colonies).
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It's not completely harmless, but harmless enough that it doesn't warrant the prejudice that it gets. While I agree with your statements and believe they are true, on balance I'd like to say that 1) Cannabis does cause psychological, but not physical addiction (I had a friend who used to start smashing things if he went too long without a joint), 2) unlike alcohol which is quickly removed from the system, THC can be stored in your fatty tissues for weeks, and 3) Any device used as a crutch to avoid confronting your problems prevents you from maturing and achieving your true purpose as a human (but this applies equally as well to alcohol, TV, etc.) I choose not to imbibe because my profession requires logical thought, but for people like writers or musicians it actually seems to be beneficial in that it stimulates creativity.
On balance, I think it would be best if we tried to honestly educate people to all the pros and cons of cannabis use and let them make their own decision. The "reefer madness" approach currently used to "educate" children only teaches them to distrust authority when they later discover that 90% of what they have been told is pure bullshit intentionally designed to scare them into specific behavior.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
For: Solar? Wind? Renewable Energy? Caller ID?
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If you want to rob someone in particular, it's usually pretty trivial to figure out if they're home or not. For instance, if you know who you're robbing, you probably know or can find out where they work - simply placing a call to the office will let you know if they're home.
If you just want to rob someone. Drive down a street at 10:00am looking for empty driveways.
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We're kidding right?
You're missing the point. Irrespective of the laws repsecting pot, it's still illegal to steal electricity... and in many cases from state-run companies.
If growing pot becomes legal, you'll have to pay for the hydro. It'll increase prices ;)
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
They don't run 24/7. You won't get any buds and your plants will be physically weak. You run the lights twelve hours a day until the plants are a foot or two high, then you change it to an eight hour lighting period, which starts the plants budding.
There is no static power draw, not even if you have the starters in one room and the buds in another.
Free Martian Whores!
How are technology and privacy competing factors? Just because some people use technology to throw their privacy out the window doesn't mean it has no other uses. Technology can be used to enhance privacy rather than destroy it, you know.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Are you at work? If so, you can give me your address I'll drive by to make sure nobody's broken in.
Ride the skies
And it will still require electricity for the lights, lots of them, and people will still want to get that electricity cheap. If marijuana is legalized overnight, the big growers won't suddenly become more moral and law abiding people overnight.
Suppressed Medical Records (File 5100-13465/001)
St. Catharines, Ontario
- Privacy Commissioner of Canada (Sect. 25,26,28)
- C.M.H.A / C.A.M.H. - Brock University
Further details Google:
Medicine_Gone_Bad
or
http://medicine-gone-bad.blogspot.com/
I've seen some pictures of the inside of a garage that was being used for growing pot. Tons of it. There are high voltage lamps all over, fans, and the back wall is covered in electric sockets. I counted about 40 power cables plugged in, and 25 transformers, just in one partial picture. It looks like a really badly run network back room, except with power cables instead of ethernet.
:-)
This is not at all the same as someone raising fish or reptiles
The real story about Smart Grid is who is pushing it, who they paid to have elected. It is all about looting money into the pockets of the few and nothing about 'efficiency'. Arduous accounting practices are rarely, if ever, efficient.
It is yet more accountants trying to take over all aspects of everything.
The same thing with health care. In stead of just treating the sick everyone must be counted and tagged and forced to pay. If I am sick how dare I not have insurance! I must be a criminal! why? Because they want me to be a profit center and be a willing slave of the unknown rulers.
Accountants, their ilk, and the people who they work for . . . the people who they work for . . . are the real story. Smart Grid is just them trying to take over more of our lives and charge us for it too. Look for them to tax at different rates different kinds of energy use.
Global Warming is a scam, folks. Smart Grid is to put a meter on all flows of energy.
Remember, folks, Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So all that the money pigs can do it tax it's flow. They want all the details so they can have arduous accounting of your use of energy. If you are doing something with energy that they don't like, they will tax you more.
And the whole time you don't get to know who it is that is really in charge and getting the benifits of all of this.
I wasn't suggesting he should move. I was just asking why he didn't.
Hiding behind semantics is a sure sign of a juvenile mind caught with his pants down and his ego exposed.
Don't the power companies have a duty to protect their consumers privacy???
Does Wal-mart or Target have a duty to protect their consumers privacy?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
The raid at the Ivy Street home of Beryl and Dina Dagy was one of 25 conducted Friday in North County and San Diego after a six-month investigation by the San Diego Integrated Narcotic Task Force into marijuana being grown in rented homes. Agents found marijuana in 20 of the raids and arrested 24 people.
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_ea2047e8-59e1-551e-b173-ce89ffad4d90.html
Can you READ? What does that say?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Many states already have legalized marijuana for use by doctors (for prescriptions). But the U.S. is arbitrarily over-ruling the states
Wasn't this recently the subject of a White House directive, saying that the federal executive branch had better things to do than to overrule the states on this subject? I think you're looking into yesterday, here.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
And it will still require electricity for the lights, lots of them, and
No it won't. People will revert to windowsills and gardens, if there is no reason to hide cultivation.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
But the big growers won't use window sills. I'm not talking about college kids growing their own, but the big growers filling up sheds and garages and greenhouses. They could move all this out into the open again in normal cultivated fields, but I don't think people who are used to running big illegal businesses are going to turn into legitimate ma and pa farmers overnight.
If there's a reason to keep the growing hidden from prying eyes, they'll continue to do it (avoiding regulations, taxes, annoyed neighbors, competitors). If they've figured out a way to get the electricity for free for their indoor farms in the past, they're not going to feel guilty about getting it for free in the future.
It's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy.
That's not a good analogy. It's more like a Food Industry Association collaborating to track everything you eat, which they use for billing purposes, but can also be accessed by law enforcement/government, stolen by black hats, or sold to advertisers. You either lose privacy or only eat what you can grow or hunt in your back yard.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Pissing and moaning is doing something.
I think you're wrong because the information is in the hands of a third party. The cops can just go ask for it and they might get it. While I think the 4th amendment should extend to personal effects that are held by third parties I don't think the courts have agreed with me.
--
JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.