Slashdot Mirror
Somali Pirates Open Up a "Stock Exchange"
reginaldo writes to clue us that pirates in Somalia have opened up a cooperative in Haradheere, where investors can pay money or guns to help their favorite pirate crew for a share of the piracy profits. "'Four months ago, during the monsoon rains, we decided to set up this stock exchange. We started with 15 "maritime companies" and now we are hosting 72. Ten of them have so far been successful at hijacking,' Mohammed [a wealthy former pirate who took a Reuters reporter to the facility] said. ... Piracy investor Sahra Ibrahim, a 22-year-old divorcee, was lined up with others waiting for her cut of a ransom pay-out after one of the gangs freed a Spanish tuna fishing vessel. 'I am waiting for my share after I contributed a rocket-propelled grenade for the operation,' she said, adding that she got the weapon from her ex-husband in alimony. 'I am really happy and lucky. I have made $75,000 in only 38 days since I joined the "company."'"
Have we got a great deal for you!!
Behold the mighty reach of Capitalism! The waves crash and the seas may boil, but the market reaches into the hearts of even the most desperate!
-|BlackErtai|-
Do you need an interactive website? Is telecommuting OK?
Now half of my dream equation is complete; however, my plans will truly come to fruition the day there is a Ninja stock exchange. Then the eternal hypothetical fight of the ages past can be settled, "Who would win in a stock trade battle, Ninja's or Pirates?" (btw, by settled I mean the Ninjas will trade the shit out of the Pirates...)
Perhaps we can send some folks from the BSA and RIAA over there to educate them about actual, real piracy. Might help them to stop confusing the term with copyright infringement.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
what happens when you have a totally free economy. On the other hand with a completely regulated economy you end stifling entrepreneurship. And with a poorly regulated economy people screw up because they think if what they were doing was wrong there would be rules against it. Lesson is that we need a properly regulated economy, but that is where my insight ends and I revert to criticizing what other people doing I can't be wrong.
every anarchist is a baffled dictator. Benito_Mussolini
Just a brief read of the article about the Dutch East India Company makes me wonder just how different the two really are.
Legitimacy as a company seems to be determined by how well you succeed and how long you've been around, more than your morals or ethics.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
This is unregulated laissez faire capitalism at its finest. I'm so proud, little Somolia is growing up.
I think you miss the point. They're not rogues; it's a lucrative business that is the most profitable job out there.
They've been doing this for a while, and by now there has to be an infrastructure supporting this. The pirates have to have ports, ships, backers.
It's just come out into the open.
Understand Africa; a couple of US$ will buy a Kalashnikov. A $75,000 payday is a fortune that is more than most Somalis will see in a lifetime.
You can bet this will succeed, until something better (more profitable) comes along.
Remember that archelogists pay the going exchange in gold to their workers if they find any artifacts. Same thing; shipping companies will pay this as long as it's cheaper than the alternatives. As long as the Somalis charge 95% of the other routes, it will prosper.
By supporting the pirate industry, they give jobs and new opportunities to the local people. But this is not the only reason why we should support them. They do an amazing job reverting the global warming. Every ecologically responsible person should invest in this stock exchange.
In unrelated news, it is rumored that the Rainbow Warrior will join their fleet.
the reason their country is so fucked is because of pirates and other militant activity that prevents any kind of stablity which is required to be prosperous. you left out option d. be productive in some way.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I'd say they may well get their money back, plus much more. The pirates aren't the same guys as the scam artists. These guys are getting some serious money, but they do need investment upfront to fund the operations... Just because they are criminals in one respect, doesn't necessarily mean they are in all respects.
I think you're missing the point. This is not something Wall Street bankers are going to be investing in. The kind of people chipping in to this operation are probably the sort of people who are just as likely as the pirates themselves to not take being cheated so well, and express that dissatisfaction with automatic weapons.
Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
They're freaking pirates! This woman is an idiot if she expects any money from this. It's not like she's seeding a movie!
Historically, pirates (in the 1600s US/Caribbean/Europe trade route sense) observed a fairly strict code of conduct which included reimbursing investors their fair share; widows/orphans got their ex-father's share, and generally they did a lot less killing than their reputation suggested.
It sounds like modern pirates appear to follow fairly similar rules, which makes for some interesting cognitive dissonance in those who romanticize the old-school version but demonize the Somali version.
Its honestly the other way round. Somalia is a failed state, a pure anarchy, and has been that way for a long time. Many of these pirates are teens that have never known what its like to have a government and are desperately poor and close to starving. Its cheaper for them to buy an AK-47 than to buy a meal. The area is in a terrible famine and drought, farming is not sustainable. The fishing grounds have been bleed dry as they were the only productive food source for a time. They have a choice of joining the islamists as suicide bombers, the genocidal warlords as child soldiers or becoming a pirate.
That's what brokers are for. People in Europe will give their brokers some money to be "invested in Somalia"
The broker's job will be to get contacts and have them select the most lucrative investments available.
Plausible deniability across the board.
The investor doesn't know exactly who the broker's contacting.
The broker doesn't know what assets the investments are going to. Only that they are going to a "fund" managed by contacts in Somalia.
The fund managers in Somalia operate privately and have strict secrecy and describe investments in only vague terms.
This is unregulated laissez faire capitalism at its finest. I'm so proud, little Somolia is growing up.
Wrong. There is partial regulation.
In a truly unregulated market the vessels losing millions of dollars would instead pay millions of dollars to have all of the pirates killed.
But they cannot do that because they are regulated.
This is nothing more than an example of uneven regulation (which is usually a sign of corruption, I'm looking at you united nations).
Actually "pirate" is probably a misnomer - these guys are the Somalian navy. Did it ever cross your mind that it's a little odd for Spanish fishing boats to be off the coast of Somalia, in Somalian waters? The collapse of the Somalian government triggered a "free-for-all" attitude among more disreputable seagoing firms, and the Somali fishermen were suddenly being crowded out of Somali waters by huge foreign firms, many of whom used dangerous and (in other places) illegal tactics to push out the locals. ("Hey, what are you gonna do, call the Somali police on us? Ha!") There have also been a number of vessels dumping wastes in Somali waters, resulting in pollution of beaches in spots along the coastline.
Piracy in this case might better be called privateering - a sort of privately run military aimed at safeguard local fishing rights against theft and prevent encroachment on Somali territory. And if some innocent foreign vessels passing nearby get looted, well, that's just hard luck.
Piracy has never been rare, and usually when there is a government, it winks and nods rather than acting against it. (Queen Elizabeth I was rumored to have made a great fortune through her country's pirates) The Somali "pirates" are primarily condemned so strongly because no government has their backs.
Pirate: I'd like to borrow some money.
Banker: For what?
Pirate: I'm planning a bank robbery. The return on your investment will be considerable.
Banker: That sounds reasonable...
I read it as an implied attack on anarcho-capitalism, which is not the United States' economic model.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Actually, by virtue of a large number of competing governments, and very low barriers to entry, the free market now provides Somalis with some of the finest governance available!
That's how it works, right?
And they don't have to worry about implementing a cap-and-trade program because if sea level rises they'll just float.
3: Open up a branch office of your multinational corporation and employ lots of locals for nearly nothing by the standards of the developed world?
Yes I am sure the mafia can make the pirates listen to Reason.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
That woman needs a Wikipedia for posterity's sake. All peoples' talk about globalization, and philosophy, and humanism seems pretty laughable - Sahra Ibrahim got a -R.P.G.- as divorce alimony. And then bet it on a pirate expedition. Is anybody else still working on this mental image? Pretty hard to comprehend from where we're sitting.
Consider it an investment with the intent to sell short.
In a truly unregulated market the vessels losing millions of dollars would instead pay millions of dollars to have all of the pirates killed.
It could be that it is cheaper just to wear the occasional losses.
So, how long do you think it will be until they rewrite the history books and become the freedom fighters who put down the unlawful regime?
To crack down on insider trading and other white collar crime.
There's laissez-faire capitalism on the government level, too, I guess, as nobody stands above governments to regulate them. And since there exists bad governments, and since every government oppresses its citizenry on some level, clearly the entire endeavor is a failure and we need god to regulate government, and then something to regulate god.
The difference in attitude comes from four things: First, the pirates who are primarily romanticized are pirates from European countries. Since the people doing the romanticization are Westerners this makes them more appealing since they potentially share more (geographicaly, culturally, ethnically etc.) Notice how Americans don't romanticize the Barbary pirates. Second, Somalia in particular has a history of problems interacting with the United States (remember the battle of Mogadishu?) and so the attitude their carries over directly to anything Americans hear anything connected to Somalia. Third, the current piracy more directly impacts our society's well-being. It is much harder to romanticize people when they are taking your goods and capturing people who are alive and have family to tell their stories and hardships to the media. This is directly related to the fourth point, romanticization is much easier when it is something that happened a long time ago. In that regard it is similar to humor (joking about the Inquisition, ok but potentially tasteless. Joking about the Holocaust. You need to be careful. Joking about 9/11? Yeah, that's going to be hard to pull off).
All of that said, I don't think people really romanticize historical pirates that much. Most of it is deliberately silly. Look at all the Ninja v. Pirate junk. The closest one has to genuine romaniticization are the Pirates of the Caribbean movies but those were a) Disney movies and b) utterly ridiculous (heck, the so called pirates did very little actual pirating unless they were clearly the bad guys).
As another person pointed out, its not free market capitalism at work, since the people the pirates are preying upon are not free to spend a few million on some guns themselves.
Its a breakdown in the UN sure enough.
...
They're freaking pirates! This woman is an idiot if she expects any money from this. It's not like she's seeding a movie!
One man's pirate is another's Robin Hood of the High Seas.
It's not necessarily true that you should expect a person who commits some crimes against some people (even violent crimes) to commit any crime against any person. Cultures across human history have survived off of raiding fat, rich neighbors and have not collapsed due to infighting and lack of ability to trust your neighbor. These "stock exchanges" were people contribute weapons for money are not necessarily any less reliable than a Scythian making a family member a good saddle before they rode off to sack the Romans, hoping for a cut of the pillage. People can be utterly trustworthy to their neighbors while being utter bastards to outsiders. It's really the historical norm.
Now, if these people were criminals that attacked their own people, then it would be pretty strange to expect fair dealing, but as long as "investors" and "entrepreneurs" see themselves as part of the same group, then there's no reason for an "investor" to expect to be treated as poorly as the pirates' victims. After all, they aren't "criminals" within their community.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
They are taking control of their own destiny's. They aren't choosing the option you would like them to take but so what? Why would they want to try and revolt against powerful warlords when they have the much safer and more lucrative option of raiding ships?
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
This has always puzzled me about lie-bertarians. To a dispassionate eye, the line appears to be so random and convenient only for the small-medium capitalists who incidentally provide the basis for this ideology to begin with. Why is it government function to protect only property, and human rights (which conveniently exclude the rights to basic food, shelter, job, and health care) ? And why the property is so sacred, of all the things a human being needs, such as "true" freedom (not just freedom to die from hunger), good health, or a family?
Interestingly, this is a slightly distorted echo of how the notion of corporate structures and shared equity originated.
In the 1600's there was a bunch of money to be made in buying ships, equipping them and sending them to the East Indies to buy spices to bring back and sell.
But ships and equipment were so expensive that it was hard for anyone to rake together the capital to put forth an expedition, even though there would be a huge payoff at the end. So the idea of a 'joint stock company' was borne so people could club together to buy the ship and the necessaries. The Dutch East India Trading company effectively became the first public company in the world and paid an 18% dividend for over two centuries. Dutch law was made to allow pieces of the company to be bought and sold on a 'bourse' (house). Other people realised you could use the same idea for purposes other than buying ships. And here we are today, turned full circle albeit with more nefarious intent.
But interesting that modern equity-based capitalism was invented by the Dutch.
So pirates are more honest than bankers/stock investers/politicians?
That i can believe in!
"Don't Forget to Salt the Fries"
Ya, those cargo and tanker ships are a real threat to the fishing...
If their gripe is with foreign ships fishing in their waters they should be going after the frakking fishing ships, not the merchant ships well outside their territorial waters.
Actually, I think it does.
This privateering is a prime example of Merchant capitalism. Only, in this case, it is a ship and its cargo being exchanged for money, rather than, say, a barrel of corn. Since there is no bartering involved in the exhange, this makes it a capitalism.
Now, on the other hand, what most people think of today as capitalism, is actually industrial capitalism, which is the exchange of services for currency, which is then exchanged for goods.
0100010001101001011001 0100100000011010010110 1110001000000110000100 1000000110011001101001 0111001001100101
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why these ships aren't arming themselves?
There are precedents in maritime law with regards to what differentiates a merchant ship and a military vessel. Also, having weapons on board presents many difficulties with respect to ships that port in many different countries with different customs and laws that apply to people that come into the country with arms.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
That’s an interesting thought. So the woman gets paid and then the next day is robbed and killed by a roving gang or a warlord’s hunt and terminate party. The other investors complain to the Somalian Stock Exchange that they don’t feel safe investing because their money can’t be guaranteed. Business suffers as a result until the Stock Exchange or some other business springs up and offers protection for that money. For only a few percentage points off the top they can keep you safe. And hey, now that you have all that money and you are safe you might want to spend it and get the good things in life. Right? So you start to make purchases and start to acquire things. New businesses have to come into being to supply you with the food and housing and coca cola that you lust for. Given a long enough time a middle class emerges that begins to demand not only protection but running water, electricity, communications, etc. It wouldn’t be the first time that a group of criminals have created a society.
The shipping companies(not to mention the boys at Lloyd's) would kick up a hell of a fuss if that plan were adopted.
The shippers aren't there to achieve foreign policy objectives, satisfy Law and Order enthusiasts, or even coddle bleeding hearts. They are there to make money by shipping stuff. The reason that they aren't bothering to do all that much about piracy is that, at least at present, it is cheaper to just suck it up, pay the occasional ransom, and carry on with business than it would be to do anything terribly aggressive.
A plan that involves blowing up entire ships(not cheap to replace) and their cargoes(also not cheap, and you'd better believe that whoever paid the shipper to have that stuff shipped would be pissed if it got lost) would be, from the shippers' perspective, vastly more expensive than just ignoring the problem.
Bad guys are the ones that *initiate* the use of force in getting what they want.
Cowardly scumbags on the other hand, is a label I save for moral relativists.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Those are for unemployment benefits. Most of these so-called pirates are just fisherman out of a job, you know.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
Certain cargoes could be worse than others. Imagine pirates sinking a super-tanker carrying two million barrels of crude. Not only would it be an ecological disaster that might be impossible to clean, but it would also spike the world oil markets because they'd get jittery. Remember that two million barrels is a tenth of the US daily consumption, and about 2.5% of the world daily consumption. It's not a lot over a year, but the threat that it could happen to other super-tankers would send some panic through the markets.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Nope - the only reason international vessels can shoot at pirates in international waters is because the various treaties governing the high seas explicitly authorize it. They say nothing about accomplices (you'd need a UNSC resolution to authorize that).
A Saudi super-tanker was released a little while back for about $2 million. It carried 2 million barrels of oil. The market value at the time was around $100 million. Replacing the cargo and the vessel would have cost a quarter-billion dollars.
Which is more cost effective?
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
"Why isn't this done?"
Maybe Panama doesn't have an aircraft carrier? If you want to go with a flag of convenience, looks like you have to put up with a navy of convenience.
I'm not sure that's the main thing stopping them. The cost of arming merchant ships would be far higher than just losing/ransoming a few of them--- piracy rates are extremely low as a percentage of total shipping, so small as to be more or less in the noise on companies' balance sheets. Arming ships has other risks, also; for example, one reason ships are typically kept unarmed is that there's a risk that armed crew would hijack their own ship for random/profit.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It could be that it is cheaper just to wear the occasional losses.
Of course it is cheaper. The shipping companies take out insurance for this situation, and the pirates are careful to keep their demands high enough to make a profit, but low enough that they don't scare the ships away, or force the ships to take a different route or escalate the situation into an armed conflict with the west. It is a straight business decision.
NPR's Planet Money blog did a good podcast a while ago about how the pirating business operates.
--
Simon
What makes them cowards is that they attack the weak and defenseless.
...those were a) Disney movies and b) utterly ridiculous
don't be reduntant.
Ho ho, all together.
Hoist the colors high!
Heave ho, thieves and beggers
Never shall we die!
The pirates of the Mediterranean probably sang a similar tune in 67BC, even as the Lex Gabinia was being passed in Rome. After all, their power had grown unopposed for centuries and they looted trading ships at will and plundered coastal cities with impunity. Piracy was a large, profitable, and enduring enterprise which was endemic over the entire Mediterranean, with ships attacked and ports raided even close to Rome itself.
The Lex Gabinia gave Pompey adequate forces and authority for 2 years to tackle the pirates. He needed only six months to eliminate them completely. According to Cicero: "Pompey made his preparations for the war at the end of the winter, entered upon it at the commencement of spring, and finished it in the middle of the summer." Piracy in the Mediterranean essentially vanished for several centuries, and only started to return during the break-up of Rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Gabinia
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
lie-bertarians
Tell us how you really feel.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The country gets richer, so I'd say it is good for the country
No it doesn't. A select few get richer while the rest starve. Get the warlords out of power and you might actually see some investment and the building of an economy that would benefit everyone.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
That is the propaganda and lies that the pirates have been using to rationalize their lawlessness and I'm surprised anybody literate enough to post to slashdot is foolish enough to fall for it. They have been seizing ships far outside the 12 mile territorial limit and even far outside the 200 mile exclusive economic zone. They are now seizing ships off the Seychelles, which is many hundreds of miles south of Somalia. Seas outside of the exclusive economic zone are free to fish for any nation's fleet. So if this is their reason, why are they seizing yachts which are clearly not outfitted with commercial fishing gear and are hundreds of miles outside of the Somali EEZ? Because they are murderous thieves and thugs; that's why.
The real problem is that they are showing that piracy pays, even in the face of significant Western naval support. It's not generally recognized that the sea lanes are lawless places. and there's nothing stopping anyone from doing what the Somalis are doing. Even words like "defending sea lanes" cause giggles in otherwise educated people.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The only reason L-libertarians support the government in fighting physical tyranny is because it is the only weapon that the "peasants" have to fight their desired L-libertarian economic tyranny.
Out of curiosity, where do the attempts to correct "economic tyranny" end? I'm paying close to 50% of my income in taxes if you account for federal income taxes, FICA taxes, property taxes, state income taxes, sales taxes, fees from DMV, fees from DEC, excise taxes, tariffs on the imported goods I buy, etc, etc, etc. Would you not consider losing half of your labor to be a form of "economic tyranny"?
I don't object to a basic safety net. I object to people who abuse that safety net. I object to losing half of my labor. I object to the fact that nearly half of this country pays no income tax while 5% of it pays half. I object to the seemingly unending growth of government, particularly on the Federal level where it's the least representative and most vulnerable to corruption. I object to losing my civil liberties, whether it's under the guise of "public safety" (gun control), "family values" (censorship) or "national security" (1st, 4th and 5th amendments).
I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Coming from a merchant seaman: Fuck You. There's no way in hell you'd be so glib if you had to deal with the threat of armed attackers at YOUR job. The fact that you've been wronged by someone is no justification at all to wrong someone else. Attacking cargo ships 600 miles off your coast can in no way be construed as a defensive action. In short these people, however desperate, have become nothing more than criminals. Hell outside of MSC contracted ships most US flagged vessels aren't even permitted to be armed. Your only defense against explosives and machine guns is to use fire hoses to prevent boarding. Good luck with that. As far as I'm concerned the sooner they take these bastards out the better.
The large number of nationalities involved, the difficulty in responding in adequate time, the problems with communication, and worst of all, the craven owners that pay the protection money to get their ship moving again. This last group are the ones who should be getting jailed. The pirates are just rational economic actors, but the owners are poisoning the commons for everyone.
[FUCK BETA]
Well, once you've repurposed a bunch of fishing vessels and out-of-work fishermen into combat vessels and heavily armed privateers, what do you do with them when the fishing waters are finally cleared? OF COURSE they're going to start ranging farther and farther out, and grabbing more and more vessels. This is a historically commonplace progression, with both navies and armies.
Anyway, if there was a Somali government, there'd be less fuss made about them. We'd complain to the Somali government, they'd make the right noises about how they were doing everything in their power to address the problem, and then things would just go on as before.
From the article: "The district gets a percentage of every ransom from ships that have been released, and that goes on public infrastructure, including our hospital and our public schools."
So let me get this straight: a group of armed somalis are using force to obtain property from passing ships, and then use the loot to fund public infrastructure and reward investors.
And that's supposed to be shocking? It's just the birth of a state. Replace "ransom" with "tax", "pirates" with "tax collectors", "somali gangs" with "somali government", "investors" with "lobbies" or "activists" or "unions", and you'll see reality a bit more clearly. The same is going on in every country in the world, except that in this case the lies are gone and you get to see a glimpse of reality. Embrace it.
Wait, so...
The shipping companies don't lose money because they're insured, and the insurers don't lose money because they up the premiums, yet the premium increases don't come out of the shipping companies' pockets?
Sir, I think you have described a perpetuum monetare, a perpetual money machine. While Madoff would be proud, the second law of thermoeconomics says it can't exist.
Think of it this way: if a set of goods is on one set of hands instead of another, the other set of hands is (duh) not having those goods. It lost the equivalent to the amount of money those hands value the goods at. It can spread the loss around (some to itself, some to the insurance company, some to their customers, for instance), but there is a loss.
Otherwise, contemplate the world where I steal everything from everybody, own all the land, and won't trade with anyone; you can all shuffle dollar bills back and forth between insurance companies and the insured, but that won't get you your cars, computers or factories back.
So somalis are imposing a 2% tax on marchandise passing through. How much are US taxes in such scenarios?
It seems that you're the idiot. For all we know, she did get her share.
And I'd be surprised if not. Criminal societies generally adhere more strongly to their codes of ethic than civil society. Because there are fewer other forces that bind them, and trust is more important.
And, of course, for the simple practical reason that if the guys want to get future investors for their next trips, they'd better build a reputation of actually paying them.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Yeah, these guys aren't so much as pirates as privateers.
Not true ... privateers are essentially government sponsored pirates, but not all pirates are privateers. In this case, there is no government to sanction them, so they're pirates.
That’s an interesting thought. So the woman gets paid and then the next day is robbed and killed by a roving gang or a warlord’s hunt and terminate party. The other investors complain to the Somalian Stock Exchange that they don’t feel safe investing because their money can’t be guaranteed. Business suffers as a result until the Stock Exchange or some other business springs up and offers protection for that money.
Thats exactly how every modern government in Europe came into existence. The British, the Dutch, and the Portuguese started out as pirates - Drake, the Ostindian Company, Spanish ... it was organized crime supported by the local powers in being (i.e. kings & queens), and it got formalized after a while. The alternative way for people to make a living is go and conquer the neighbourhood, which is what Russia, Germany, and some other countries did in lieu of some decent sea routes to plunder.
I wouldn't ridicule this too much, it is a good development - a stock exchanges *does* need the protection of property and lives, and will lead to people you can negotiate with and that know the value of trust. Those people currently have the choice between starvation and becoming criminal. You can talk to them - try bargaining with some well-fed, middle-class, well-educated jihadist who is convinced the universe owes him more and thats why he's going to blow up himself together with some civilians if they don't stop listening to Popsongs.
Invita Invidia
Because the group of individuals known as a government can't protect your "right" to health-care, basic food, shelter or a job without taking those things from other individuals under threat of imprisonment if they don't cough up. So a "right" to food means someone else has to grow it on their land and hand it over, either being paid with money that been taken from *other* productive members of the village or point blank stolen and handed over to the person asserting their "right". Some right ey?
The right to "basic food" means the right to take something that someone else has put a lot of effort in, what or who gives *you* that right just by virtue of being born? And what if ther people growing their food stop growing it and demand their rights too? Property rights are the core of all rights, without being "allowed" to own any singular item or piece of land how can one be at all free? Given the track record of societies that don't recognise property rights but *do* recognise the "right" to strike, housing, healthcare and food *cough*Eastern Bloc*cough* there's an extremely strong historical argument for the basis of what the libertarians are saying.
I'm not even nearly a "lie-bertarian" and even I understand that....
Sorry but the available data does not support your post.
The data I found about the position of the Alakrana shows that it was far away from Somali coast (way more than 200 mi). If it was Economic Zone of any country, it had to be of the Seychelles.
Of course I don't know if they were going to unload fish from Somalia coast, but you'd need some additonal data to back that statement.
Why can't
Libertarians do not deny the right to shelter or food. They never have. Your welcome to obtain those as you see fit as long as you don't deprive another of their life, property, or rights.
The key is that you have no right to demand the property and rights of others to satisfy your desires. This includes not having others act as proxy in taking from others. This is not the same as denying you your "right" to shelter or food. Though it amazes me as to what constitutes a right. We have people claiming rights to cell phones, internet, and other such garbage too. Who is correct?
I think the best summary of the Libertarian outlook is, don't expect others to do it for you unless you first try to do it yourself.
when you just hand people other people's stuff without requirement of effort you simply encourage more of the behavior that led to creating people of the first group. We have examples of this in every society. People who have figured out that if they lower their standards enough they can exist on the welfare of others. Yes there are cases anyone can cite showing someone who is trying but not getting ahead, but those are not the focus of the problem.
I have far more respect for someone working at Wal-Mart/McDonalds/Etc than the person collecting unemployment and not working there because "its beneath them" or not cool. The real adults of this world will work any legal job to provide food and shelter for their families, even if it means more than one. Been there, done that. The rest are just selfish jerks too wrapped up in themselves.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Madman curie sounds like the name of a stunt motorcyclist
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
Oh, considering that unlike anywhere else along trade routes there is no fine for cleaning the cargo bays and tanks from all the (often poisonous) stuff, yes, they are. So you've been transporting 5000 tons of mazut. Now you've got a contract for half a million ton of high-quality gasoline. Except mazut is sticky and there's about 80 tons of mazut residue on walls of your tanks, that will pollute the fuel. You have a choice to stop for a few days at a port, pay several thousands dollars for cleaning and disposal, or just get your crew to flush the junk to the sea with hi-pressure hoses, while traveling full ahead to where the fuel awaits. No delay, no extra cost (included in salary), no waste disposal fees - and several square miles of sea life getting killed is none of your business.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
For vessels that do not dock at US ports? Nothing at all of course, that would be piracy...
This sig all sigs devours
I seem to remember the Somalians in Mogadishu being able to take down our choppers and engage our forces using tactics that were taught to them by Mujaheddin which they picked up fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. That's not to say there's not a lot of cannon fodder or that they're all trained and skilled fighters but the single largest mistake anyone can make in entering combat is to dismiss or underestimate your opponent. The country does not have a complete lack experienced fighters and with paydays we're talking about here it's going to draw the talent.
And as an employer, if these shipping companies put weapons in the hands of their sailors and tell them to resist rather than evade, hide, and lay low, then they are legally taking responsibility for their ability to fight. You don't hand someone a gun and say good luck. You give them that weapon and tell them to defend themselves you have to TEACH them how to defend themselves, give them tactics and training. That's a large investment in both time and money. A lot of people want the sailors armed because they want the pirates dead, but the shipping company's first priority is to not have ANY of their sailors killed, 2nd is to have the ships not hijacked, third is to have the ships not delayed on route, and the pirates being dead a distant fourth. They don't want to have to go into combat as a company, that's not their business. That's what the Navy's of the world should be taking care of.
Lastly, if you don't agree with what I've said about needing training, what makes in untrained maritime sailor with small arms a better combatant then a supposedly untrained pirate? Is the untrained sailor supposedly better at close quarter combat because he's white or has some level of education, high school or further? I don't remember any CQB training at my High School. I'm interested in what makes the untrained merchant sailor a better fighter then your theory of untrained pirates that have just experienced "random violence" which, by the way, does a lot of good during a firefight if it's not your first time seeing a buddies head get a hole blown through it.
But that's necessary even if you defend only property rights. Even a libertarian government would still have police to defend the property rights and courts to settle disputes which mean they would have to tax which means they would have to take money by threat of violence and imprisonment. You're not avoiding the dilemma, you're just prioritizing the "rights" that are important to you over the rights that are important to people less fortunate than you.
By that libertarian logic, there can be no property at all, as in involves the government forcibly stopping anyone else from using it. In fact, in a true libertarian society, no-one owns anything except what they create out of thin air.
Who gave them that land in the first place? Government. Government gave you the land, and if that land bears fruit, they can tell you how it's going to be distributed. Don't like it? Make your own land.
Actually they have another choice. They could turn those AK-47s that are so easy to come by on the assholes that are fucking up their country. Neutralize the warlords and islamist extremists and the rest of the world might be more willing to invest the resources and capital required to help lift that country out of poverty.
It sounds good in theory, but there are two important factors here.
First of all, as in any other "why don't they just revolt?!" case, this requires significant cooperation. If one guy just picks an AK and tries to shoot a local warlord, even if he succeeds, there will be someone else next in line to replace the warlord, and the assassin would be brutally executed in retribution - quite possibly together with his family. To pull this off, every guy who has the urge to pull the trigger needs to know that there are enough people elsewhere in the country willing to do the same; otherwise it's a bet with very high stakes and low chance to win. And people generally value their lives, as crappy as they may be (especially those people who haven't seen better lives, which certainly includes a lot of youths in Somalia).
The second factor is that humans are often enticed by systems which offer a very small chance to get a very high payout. So you have a thousand guys living in abject poverty, or died trying, for each one who managed to pull it (in this case, it = "captured a ship with worthy cargo") off and become rich. The problem is that each of those thousand guys know that, in theory, they also have the same chance, and furthermore, most of them think that they have a significantly-higher-than-average chance if they "train hard" or just because they're awesome. And so they will fight tooth and nail to preserve the system, even as it screws them, because of that illusory chance.
In fact, you should be familiar with this - unrestricted, unregulated free market capitalism is one such system, and there are plenty of confused people who would be much worse off under it (I've noticed that a quite lot of Libertarians tend to be poorer than average), but still advance it because they have high hopes of getting rich, and they don't want "government stealing the hard-earned money" when they do.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As another person pointed out. It is free market capitalism at work, since the people the pirates are preying upon ARE BY INTERNATIONAL TREATY free to spend a few million on some guns themselves.
It is just not profitable. It's much cheaper to pay the ransoms.