Saying No To Promotions Away From Tech?

lunchlady55 writes "I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role, oriented toward 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is: have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"

Comments

You can't say NO

[DigiShaman]

Or you will be replaced by someone whome is currently a member of the 10+% unemployment group. So ya, your fucked with pager duty.

Re:You can't say NO

[twilightzero]

Unfortunately parent is correct, your chances of turning this down and keeping your current job are very slim. Did your boss give a reason you "have to" move into an administrative role? That sounds a bit fishy to me, and if I were you I might take it up with my 2nd line manager to verify the reasoning behind it.

Re:You can't say NO

[mrrudge]

Check that it's not an optional move, if it is, then smile, accept and start using those can't-really-sleep-can't-really-go-anywhere-can't-drink hours to look for another job where they hopefully won't do this to you. They should have explained already if they have any respect for you and what you do.

The step to management is barbed, it's very hard to go back once you've stepped out of the firing line for very long.

Re:You can't say NO

[SpaceLifeForm]

It's due to management believing that if you make X amount of
money, you are supposed to be in management.

Which tells you that the management is bad, and you should
not be working for the losers anyway.

Re:You can't say NO

[sohp]

That's been my experience. They offer promotions up to line management (the lowest level) of people they want to keep, then move to a contract/outsource/offshore model and let the rest go. The 24/7 including holidays on call requirement sounds like something a company would do when they are expecting to have a lot of folk in India doing the technical work.

If that's the company's direction, then I would expect the OP to be let go at some point if he doesn't take the promotion. The company is expecting to be able to replace his technical role with someone cheaper.

Re:You can't say NO

[JJBird]

I second this - it is exactly what happened to me. I was moved so that they could retain me post outsourcing. The wanted to keep senior technical knowledge, but the only slots they were allowed to keep on the org chart were managerial ones. It took 6 months for me to realize that I hated every second of my day in management and leave. I am back to a technical role in another company and loving it. You may be safest to accept the new role and start looking... After going up the ranks like that in one company you are probably comparitively underpaid anyway. Movement between companies, even in this market, is too often needed for equitable compensation increases.

Re:You can't say NO

[sxpert]

I'll add...
Good luck with all the shit the indians will be throwing your way...
then, in 5 to 10 years, they'll count again, and figure out that they've been had, and that they spent more repairing all the crap than would have cost them doing the work in house

Re:You can't say NO

[SnapShot]

. . . accept the new role and start looking . . . you are probably comparatively underpaid anyway.

Exactly. Short and too the point. You don't owe them anything for this so-called promotion. Negotiate the highest salary you can get and then spend your time getting that resume polished.

Re:You can't say NO

[tool462]

That's very short-sighted. Maybe his current manager is a complete jerk and deserves it. Even so, the manager isn't the one who will take the pain while they scramble to find somebody to fill his spot. It will be one of the guys he worked with taking on two people's jobs for at least a couple of weeks. And lord help him if he does well at it. He may get stuck at the workload for a long time, since management will have no incentive to hire--they're getting the same work for less money. Then in a few years, when he's looking into a new job, that same guy he screwed over may be in a position to affect whether or not he's hired. A simple "I don't know if we should hire him, he bailed on his last job by quitting with no notice because he was offered a promotion" would be enough to sabotage any chance he had. Quitting without notice would require VERY extenuating circumstances to be acceptable. Like if your manager was killing hookers and storing them in the break room freezer. I'd probably quit without notice then.

Re:You can't say NO

[eln]

You'd be amazed at how many people I used to work with that I've since run into in other jobs, even across the country. I had a boss that I absolutely hated at one job. Even so, I worked hard for him, and gave him 2 weeks notice when it was time for me to move on. 7 years later, I was unemployed and he was able to find me another job.

Alienating anyone in the field is a very bad idea, because it WILL come back to bite you eventually, and you never know who might prove useful down the line.

Re:You can't say NO

[Jaysyn]

Bingo. Cleaning up after shoddy Indian sub-contractors has been my bread & butter since May or so.

Re:You can't say NO

[orzetto]

You don't need to get drunk to be unable to drive. A couple of beers will already put you "under the influence", as far as laws are concerned.

Re:You can't say NO

[Maxo-Texas]

Indian work was of higher quality 2000-2003. Since then it's dropped. The biggest issue is not the quality of the work, or the intelligence of the indian contractors but in their inability to say "no" to an unrealistic estimate. But the quality has dropped as a result of meeting unrealistic estimates. (If you put it into production with bugs... then you made your deadline.. and get *another* contract to fix the bugs).

My suspicion is that in 2000-2003, we had a lot of masters degree candidates but now they have been bid up and we are getting bachelor's degree types. Still smart, but before they were clearly more intelligent than I was. We had some back then who could walk in the door and learn everything in a very short time and begin working much faster than american candidates. But they are all gone now. The few who remain are now project managers or higher. I suppose the rest are elsewhere.

The biggest hole I've seen is that three different american groups ( and by that I mean russians, americans, philipinos, etc. who had all been here for a decade ) indicated a huge project was risky and huge. The indians just said, "yes we'll do it". The executives haven't been able to drop this huge black hole off of the status reports yet but it is clear that we spewed a ton of cash on this waste of a project (which will never see production).

Re:You can't say NO

[david_thornley]

This is based on my limited experience, take it for what it's worth.

There are a lot of very good technical people in India. There's a horde of very cheap technical people in India. I, personally, have noticed no overlap.

It's really hard to judge the quality of subcontractors, particularly at intercontinental distances, until you've worked with them a while. Since the drive to outsource is usually to cut costs, there's a tendency to go low on prices, which pretty much guarantees getting low-end people. I don't know that good US people are any better than good Indian people, but there is a difference between low-end US and low-end Indian.

Of course, once the bad news comes in, managerial reputations are on the line, competent locals have been laid off, perhaps office space has been reallocated, and even if the absolute best thing to do would be to hire back the locals and dump the Indians it's not going to happen fast. Even moving to a better quality of Indian techie will be difficult.

Idiot

[moogied]

Look, this is IT. If you are great at the technical stuff you will become irreplaceable as you develop unique one off solutions to problems. If you are just good at the technical stuff but having an amazing work ethic you will become a project lead and that is the 1st step into management. Its just how the tree branches out. The money is in management, you just need to understand thats how it works. If you want more money, you work in management.

Eventually all things become a "job", so take the most cash you can get and rest peacefully at night knowing you will only be woken up 20 times a year at 3am instead of 100.

Stay away from the dark side!!

[c0mpliant]

If management is something that interests you then go for it. But if you're like me you wont want to.

The technical aspect of my job is what I enjoy, not ensuring we have adequate cover, or that Joe actually came in at 0900 and not 0905 again!!! Your technical role will slowly be reduced until you are more concerned about rota's, quota's and time management...*shudder*

Re:Stay away from the dark side!!

[afidel]

If you care that Joe came in at 9:05 then you are a wanker manager! Seriously these are IT people, knowledge workers. They can work from basically anywhere, are not necessarily fully productive every hour of every day, and are basically never off work because their mind continues to work on problems (REM sleep is when a ton of creative ideas come up because that's basically when your brain does housecleaning on everything you were doing during the day) when they are not "at work". I came into work late a total of almost 3 hours last week but I also did about 40 hours of reading on a new technology we are implementing from home and my boss knows it. I'm a technical lead/manager and I don't give a toss if my reports ask to work from home a couple days one week because their kid is off from school as long as they get their work done.

Please clarify...

[EmagGeek]

So, are you saying that, as a non-technical manager or administrator, you'll have to work more and be on call, compared to the technical people who work their 4/40 and are off the rest of the time?

Why would the managers be on call all the time and the tech people not? That seems backwards to me, or maybe I just misunderstood...

Either way, take a hike and find a better job. Companies are still hiring - but they're only hiring people who can earn their keep (i.e. you bring in more money than you cost). If you are a good leader, you will be able to sell yourself on that.

Only you can answer this

[onyxruby]

Your the only person who can answer one simple question about this "Will this advance a career path that I wish to go down?". If this won't help advance a career path you want, than you should look for an alternative. Perhaps they want to groom you for management, and feel this is a good lead into it? Ask your manager how they see this with regards to your career path and go from there.

Where I need to be.

[headkase]

Say no thanks, explain to them that you can best serve the company with your interests in the position you are already in for the moment. If they let you go this will demonstrate lack of wisdom on their part and you would be better served by someone new. Although, of course, the transition is never pleasant.

bad omen

[Sprouticus]

take the promotion and start looking elsewhere. Any manager who does not ASK you if you want to do a job is bad, and things will only get worse.

Your manager should have asked

[wren337]

An annual review, besides being a great opportunity to get a raise or some additional PTO, is when you should be discussing your plans and goals with your manager. Get this straight, you are not being "forced" to move into management. You can always leave. Your manager values your contribution, and possibly they are in a bind for some management help. If that's the case, offer to take on some management tasks while they interview for a new supervisor. Particularly if this is your first five years of employment, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stay technical, and they should be open to that.

The Peter Principle

[ecotax]

Sounds like a nice example of the Peter Principle in action.
Can't you persuade management that (which i assume is part of your problem, apart from the working hours thing) you simply won't be the right person for this job, and that you'd rather keep doing something that you are good at?

Re:Try it! You could be the first! (Post?)

[BlackSnake112]

Most managers are not on call. This sounds like his manager is delegating roles out to people so he can 'manage' better. Or why work hard your self when you can get someone else to do it for you. I would go over that managers head ad see what really is going on. Losing your 3 day week ends is going to suck. But working 5 days and being on call the other 2 for every week sounds wrong. Rotating on call weekends fine. Every weekend, sound like they are trying to get you to quit.

Does this new manager see you as a threat? This could be his (her?) way of getting you to quit. You quitting is better then them firing you. I would talk to your manager's boss to see what is going on. Your manager might be trying to get rid of you.

Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount

[unformed]

Honestly, I'd rather get paid less than be on call.

it's only money

[fred fleenblat]

say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50% increase in pay + 30% bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.

if they blink, you know they aren't serious about having you in management.

Ask your boss.....

[StikyPad]

It depends why you're getting "promoted."

If they feel you're incompetent, but a hard worker, then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you're better suited. Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.

Otherwise, you should be asking your boss, not Slashdot. He's the only one who knows where he stands. Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick. Tell him you appreciate the offer, but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position. Tell him you'd prefer to remain in that role, and ASK HIM "hypothetically, how would you feel if I declined the offer?"

Just like people who are actually trying to get promotions, the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask.

Re:Stay tech at all costs

[tomhudson]

Problem is, you stop doing tech, you start to become obsolete, so as soon as you move to management, you start the "best-before due date" clock.

With the accelerating pace of change, a few years out and you'll never be able to get back in - and you'll be obsolete at managing the next big thing ...

there's a reason why so many old farts ^W^W people write "you can have my keyboard when you pry it from my cold dead hands".

Don't do that...

[Overzeetop]

Don't play the family card. Very, very few employers take kindly to that. If your work is valued and you trust your boss (you've worked with him or her for several years now, right?), tell them the truth. You really enjoy the technical parts of the job, feel it's your forte, and that - quite honestly - 4 tens is a big benefit for you personally. This may get them to tip their hand as to why they want you in management. Do they need a good tencnical lead, or are they just short handed. Do they feel you'd be better in a manag. position - i.e. your technical work isn't in line with their expectations but you're a good employee?

Making the move is more about why they're moving you than anything else. If you really like the tech support say so. Know that your financial advancement may slow or stop in the company, and that in a year or two you'll be looking for an advanced position somewhere else. Consulting isn't really a viable option if your allergic to management and 5x8 with a pager the other times - it's a combination of both of those. Then again, if they really need a tech guy in management, it might be your opportunity to keep climbing and make sure things run smoothly in the board room instead of the server closet.

-OR- avoid being unemployed by

[assertation]

Or, avoid being unemployed by telling them that you _strongly_ prefer your current job, but that you care about the company and want to do what is best for the company, even if it means doing another job.

If they decide to make you a manager anyway, at least you will be drawing a paycheck, instead of unemployment, while you look for a new job.

That's bad advice.

[NoYob]

Yep, experienced people with technical skills are still not that easy to find,...

Everyone I know who's looking for technical help is getting swamped with resumes from qualified people. It's just a matter of weeding them out.

Starting looking for a new job right away, and when you leave, do NOT give any notice. Just leave that same day, to spite them. However, tell your new employer you need to give them 2 weeks' notice (because it looks bad to the new employer if you don't), so instead of working at the old place for 2 weeks, just screw them and take a 2-week vacation.

I see. So, you're saying he should lie. It will probably catch up with him one day and if he's like me, he may be a terrible liar.

That wasn't very good advice to give.

Don't burn bridges (or coworkers still on them)

[Fencepost]

There's no reason to be immature when you leave a company, whether it's your choice or not. Behave with class even if you're truly pissed, and don't bitch about how pissed off you are/were when you're interviewing either - nobody wants a whiner.

If you leave on good terms, you may be able to use those folks as a reference beyond "Yes, Joe was employed here from 2005 to 2009." If you leave people dealing with a festering pile of crap because you were being pissy, that time range is the *best* you should expect to get, and you may get worse. Remember, just because you're jumping to a new job doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to last. Odds are fair that once you're established in an industry you're going to stay in that industry or a related one because that's where many of your networking contacts are and they'll help you find future jobs. That means you're going to run into people you've worked with in the past.

A friend has closed product development consulting contracts because he did a favor for someone 10 years ago and that now-senior-executive remembered him. Be that remembered person.

If you're being laid off, this is even more important. When a site I was at was closed years back (and I declined the opportunity to relocate), I got thanks for being professional and helpful with closing things down, documenting, etc. I had no problems at all with listing those folks as references, because *they were happy with me.*

Basically if the payoff for being pissy is to make you feel good for 15 minutes, just go have a beer with friends instead. You'll feel just as good, and it may cost you less in the long run.

Re:Negotiate

[drakaan]

...If something came across that doubled my salary, I'd be off like a shot and do it. I mean, really...if anyone here was independently wealthy, who would ever work again? Certainly not I...I mean, even if you still like to do geek stuff..if you are wealthy enough live off the money you have, then anything you do is a hobby at that point, not work.

My viewpoint is different, I suppose. I'm not independently wealthy, but if I were, you'd still be hard-pressed to get me not to touch a computer for longer than about a week. I *do* like my job, and if something came around that doubled my salary, I probably wouldn't take it unless it was substantially similar to what I'm doing now (IT Consulting...mainly software these days).

I don't work for myself, but my job is more to me than just a means to an end. I like doing it. It not only provides me with money, but it is (mostly) enjoyable and challenging. What does it matter? A lot.

Re:Negotiate

[mattack2]

The geniuses do not change their lifestyle and stick the extra away so they can retire really early.

You have basically summarized the book "The millionaire next door".

Re:Negotiate

[TheCarp]

> One of the things that constantly bothers me when interviewing older workers is the fact that, in many ways, tech is no longer a joy....it's
> all job. I've found myself in that position more and more as I get older; building a Linux kernel is now tedious instead of exciting. I
> haven't had a GNU/Hurd install in years.

Well, anything you do day in and day out is going to be tedious. Expecting that anything is going to stay fresh, new, and exciting forever is nearly always going to be a disappointment (and I think is what ends as many marriages as careers).

The real question here is.... is the choice boredom or management? Or is that a false choice?

Linux kernel builds are no longer exciting. In fact, I use stock kernels almost exclusively now and fight hard any time someone wants to do anything that involves custom modules (not that there is never a need, just that its enough management overhead on an ongoing basis to be worth making damned sure its the right solution).

However, I just a side project to learn Java and write some servlets to run under tomcat. Thats still pretty exciting. Tech guys can still keep things fresh through lateral moves. Or moves to other companies.

I say take the pay increase, and start sending out resumes. Then be sure to use your new current salary in negotiations. Even if the net result is a loss, I would rather be in the negotiating position of making more than they are offering and "considering a pay cut if the job seems right" than to be making what I make now and trying to ask for more. Just a thought.

-Steve

Lacking parameters

[mseeger]

Hi,

for a detailed advice, there are too many parameters missing. So i have to stay on the general track:

1. Your wording seems to indicate you don't have a choice. The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.
2. My personal opinion: Every technical guy should try management at least once. Even if you hate the job, you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.
3. Management is an ungrateful job: You can do everything for you subordinates, they will not thank it. If you stay in management, your job satisfaction must have a different source.
4. If you find not be suited to the job: Pull the plug yourself. Don't wait for anyone else to do it. The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.

Have fun, Martin

P.S. My path was: Programmer -> Consultant -> Director -> CEO -> Sales. While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs, nothing beats sales. Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield.

Just say "no" to dumbasses

[pushf popf]

If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.

Tell them "no", and turn the job down. If they fire you, start your own consulting business.

"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong" and "On call" is code for "We own you and every molecule of your time." If this is a high profile job, you won't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage, which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate.

In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has. Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess. They may also fire you, but the job sucks anyway, so you haven't lost anything.

"We need you to work this weekend."
"No. I don't work weekends"

"We need you to take over this doomed project"
"Sorry, I don't accept projects with little chance of success."

Your life can only suck as much as you're willing to allow it to.