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Adobe Takes On Microsoft Role In E-book Market

ericatcw writes "Barnes & Noble, Sony and other e-book vendors may have the manufacturing muscle, but the brains directing the challenge against Amazon.com's Kindle eBook Reader is Adobe Systems. Like Microsoft, Adobe has built a formidable ecosystem of partners to whom it supplies software such as its encryption/DRM-creating Adobe Content Server. Adobe paints Amazon as being like Apple: secretive and playing badly with others. Amazon argues it just ain't so, and takes a jab, along with other critics, at Adobe's alleged open-ness."

161 comments

  1. Wait... by Kenja · · Score: 4, Funny

    There's an e-book market?

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:Wait... by rocket97 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, actually the Kindle by Amazon is doing really well from what I have heard.

      --
      "The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
    2. Re:Wait... by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      As a long-time Palm PDA + Sunrise + Plucker user, I'm really getting a chuckle out of all this attention e-books are getting lately :-P

      But I guess it's all about content distribution and control from the publishers... not a game I've really even been fond of playing, especially when it comes to entertainment. If I have enough of that kind of free time on my hands, I can spend it looking for legitimate free entertainment (or producing my own), thank you.

    3. Re:Wait... by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Yeah but that has more to do with The Oprah's endorsement

    4. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't Adobe just go bankrupt already? No more Flash, no more Reader, those two insecure plugins would finally bite the fucking dust.

    5. Re:Wait... by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      No more Photoshop, no more Illustrator, no more After Effects...

      You know, Adobe's apps make the graphic design/post production/digital art world go round, even if we regret that it is a single company doing it. Their high end professional applications are generally pretty good (yes , overpriced, and 'upgraded' too often with pointless features, but still). I'm not sure I'd like to see them go abandonware.

    6. Re:Wait... by runyonave · · Score: 1

      They will lose market share after HTML 5 becomes standard in all browsers. We'll be seeing instead of the buggy, closed, linux un-friendly and sometimes unreliable Flash player.

    7. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol bankrupt - not much chance of that. do you get out much?

      flash is here to stay, like it or not. the fact it pisses off some of the bellends on this site just makes it all the sweeter! =)

    8. Re:Wait... by LOLLinux · · Score: 1

      (yes , overpriced, and 'upgraded' too often with pointless features, but still).

      It's only "overpriced" if you're buying the full professional version for home use. Photoshop is a drop in the bucket in the total software costs for doing professional work. The amount you pay for just one license (assuming you don't do bulk, discounted licenses) barely amounts to 2 days pay for a professional.

    9. Re:Wait... by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      all browsers... you know it'll probably take 10 years for IE6 to vanish completely... HTML 5 will be a decent wait.

    10. Re:Wait... by dave562 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't count on it. Like the poster above you said, Adobe has the design tools. Flash is just the presentation layer. Even with HTML5 video tags, the developer still needs to create that video some how. The odds are pretty good that Adobe will be involved some where in the creative process.

    11. Re:Wait... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There's an e-book market?

      There is, though perhaps not where you live (U.S.?). I buy non-DRM'd books for $1-2 each, usually 1-2 each week (now going through the back catalog), and read them on my PRS-505.

    12. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ahhhhhh, don't confront them with the facts; it spoils the fun!

      let them invest loads of time learning yet another version of html - (eg dhtml, ajax, vrml), only to find out that people don't need or want any more of this crap and they're out of luck.

    13. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No more Photoshop, no more Illustrator, no more After Effects...

      You know, Adobe's apps make the graphic design/post production/digital art world go round, even if we regret that it is a single company doing it. Their high end professional applications are generally pretty good (yes , overpriced, and 'upgraded' too often with pointless features, but still). I'm not sure I'd like to see them go abandonware.

      So what, you think that if Adobe went away the world would do without professional graphics design software? You really think other companies wouldn't rush in to fill the marketshare vacuum? You think this cannot possibly result in some real competition in this area? Really?? Maybe you can explain that because it makes no sense to me.

    14. Re:Wait... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm missing something but you really don't need Adobe to output Ogg Theora and H.264 video files.

    15. Re:Wait... by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      Well, there are an awful lot of struggling/semi-professional graphic designers/artists/freelancers out there. A long tail of people who I suspect make up a significant proportion of adobe's market, or potential market.

      Obviously, I don't know this for sure. But when I worked in post-production I saw an endless stream of people who needed adobe products to ply their trade, who were lucky to make the cost of their software in a month. They were stuck in Adobe's (pointless) upgrade cycle because the studios they worked for upgraded, and they need to be interoperable.

    16. Re:Wait... by dave562 · · Score: 1

      That's true. There are other video content creation tools out there. I was just making the point that Adobe owns a large portion of the market, along with Apple and their Final Cut software. There are a lot of "content creation professionals" out there who don't know anything more than Adobe products, and those people will continue to use those products no matter what HTML5 brings to the table.

    17. Re:Wait... by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      No, I think we desperately need competition in the area. I have thousand of man-hours sunk into Adobe's formats, because there aren't realistic choices. It would be a massive headache to have to move to different formats in new applications that might not do a particularly good job of importing old abandonware files.

      What we need is for competition to force Adobe into a position where they have to a agree to open standards for their file formats. That's what I want, not the bankruptcy of a company that I believe still makes some really good software.

    18. Re:Wait... by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      You're right that HTML5 won't be in all browsers for a damn long time, but there's a good chance lot of the trendier websites (youtube, facebook, etc.) will start ignoring IE6 pretty soon. I think it's fairly clear that what's it propping it up are corporate intranets, and a lot of sites may just give up in the browsing from work on IE6 market.

      Small sites may take the leap as well. I'm thinking of stopping IE6 testing on my personal site... I'm sure a lot of other one-man shows are thinking a similar thing.

    19. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you've heard is what amazon has told you. Nobody else is talking about how successful their ebook reader is. And the first gen kindle was ugly as malda's ass after a gang-bang.

    20. Re:Wait... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      They had competition in Macromedia and bought them. Paintshop Pro (if it exists) was pretty good but not quite ready to compete, imo. I think everyone is afraid to take on the likes of PS because it would be quite a struggle.

    21. Re:Wait... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Real Player still exists sadly. The BBC in fact still use it in some instances afaik.

    22. Re:Wait... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Yep, let's all use old HTML and never move on. That will surely make people want the new technology.

    23. Re:Wait... by Z8 · · Score: 1

      There's an e-book market?

      Yes. It's difficult to get estimates, but at least several hundred thousand at least have been sold. This estimate puts 2009 sales figures at 3 million units in the U.S. alone. Anecdotally I would have to agree—I don't have one but a number of my friends do. Several hundred thousand readers minimum isn't world shattering, but yes it is a market.

    24. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no mate, if you need multimedia you use flash, if you don't, you use static html. geddit...?

    25. Re:Wait... by trickyD1ck · · Score: 0

      I think in this case, high pricing is actually benefitial, because if a tool seems too expensive, this most likely means your skills are not worth it. If anything, this prevents people from wasting their time.

    26. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why do i get the feeling you're rather cack at what you do...?

      sorry, i might be wrong but it's just that the kind of attitude you exude is normally associated with a lack of talent.

    27. Re:Wait... by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      No, I don't think that's the case. In the media world a whole lot depends on how well you schmooze. Talent is not a ticket to money.

    28. Re:Wait... by trickyD1ck · · Score: 0

      I don't think it matters whether it is talent, schmooze or something else that you lack. Money is a proxy for all these things and if you don't earn enough to buy a tool means you are doing something wrong and the tool probably won't help.

  2. To be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Adobe just provides a platform; it's up to the producers to decide what protection (if any) to place on the documents.

    1. Re:To be fair... by megamerican · · Score: 1

      Adobe just provides a platform; it's up to the producers to decide what protection (if any) to place on the documents.

      If you're the TSA, then you decide that using an Adobe pdf editor to redact your documents is a good, secure idea. No one could ever figure out how to take off those redactions (from wikileaks). Oops.

      The only thing that TSA manual is missing is a good procedure for properly redacting a document.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    2. Re:To be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like a good megamerican, you seem to have your facts completely wrong. Those redactions weren't done with the redaction tool in Acrobat (which is one way that they SHOULD have been done). Instead, they were most likely done by drawing a black box over the original text within Word (nearly as bad as trying to change the background color to match the text color in Word). But let's not little things like facts keep the "megamerican" from understanding what he's talking about or who he's pointing his finger at.

    3. Re:To be fair... by PCM2 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Adobe just provides a platform; it's up to the producers to decide what protection (if any) to place on the documents.

      Sort of true. But if you get in bed with Adobe because it has the best software for rendering professionally produced documents, then decide that you want some form of DRM for those documents, you're sort of stuck. Adobe might say "we have this method of doing DRM," and maybe it isn't exactly what you had in mind, but the reality is it's their way or the highway; you don't really get a vote. So you go along with it.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    4. Re:To be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the "Anonymous Coward" ....

  3. Re: Wait by someyob · · Score: 4, Informative

    There certainly won't be a market until the prices of the readers come down. $300? You gotta be crazy. Even at $50 they would in any case likely never entice me completely away from the real thing.

  4. Re: Wait by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or till there's a cross platform standard format. If I have the option of using an e-book on my cell phone, laptop, desktop, pda etc without having to purchase a half dozen different versions I'm all for it. But buying a file that only works on one device seems like a bad idea.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  5. Amazon sucks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to work there in Kindle tech support, fired without cause as part of a witch hunt on a security breach.
    I dont care how well the Kindle is doing, I wouldn't use one again if they gave it for free.

    1. Re:Amazon sucks... by iamacat · · Score: 1

      And what are you saying to convince us to do the same? That Amazon is overzealous about security? I think a lot of people will take this as a plus.

    2. Re:Amazon sucks... by CorporateSuit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      fired without cause as part of a witch hunt on a security breach.

      Unfortunately, this sentence nullifies your credibility. This is what sociopaths say when they're fired for everything. This is what all my ex-con buddies say when they can't hold down a job for more than 6 months. It's what 16 year olds say when they get fired for doing 10 minutes of work in an hour, because they were too busy texting their friends about the movie on Friday. This is what unclever people say when they tried to pull something clever, got caught, and refused to believe that someone could see through the cleverness of their crappy plans.

      I'm not saying that you fit into these categories, or that you did something wrong. Rather, I'm saying, you are simply using the same wording that they ALL use, which immediately triggers off "BULLSHIT" alarms in anyone over the age of 18 who doesn't use this line -- so don't bother with ever using it. Remove that line and your post carries much greater impact.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    3. Re:Amazon sucks... by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and your post is an example of a statistical fallacy where from "an incompetent person is likely to use this defense" you conclude that "a person who uses this defense is likely to be incompetent". Classic.

    4. Re:Amazon sucks... by Z8 · · Score: 1

      It's valid inference (for suitable values of "likely") if you add the probably safe assumptions that there are at least as many incompetent people in the sample space as competent onces, and that competent people are not more likely to use that defense than incompetent ones.

    5. Re:Amazon sucks... by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and your post is an example of a statistical fallacy where from "an incompetent person is likely to use this defense" you conclude that "a person who uses this defense is likely to be incompetent". Classic.

      You should ask for your money back from those speed reading classes. My conclusion is that "a person who uses this defense is likely to be treated as incompetent." Spot the difference.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    6. Re:Amazon sucks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually he explicitly did not reach a conclusion, he only suggested that the wording would cause other people to reach a conclusion and recommended a change in wording. He's right, and hopefully the OP will listen to him.

    7. Re:Amazon sucks... by melikamp · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that you committed the fallacy. But you basically stated that most readers here will commit the fallacy. So your chain of reasoning went from "incompetent people are likely to use this defense" directly to "Slashdot readers are likely to conclude that a person using this defense is incompetent".

      I just wish I had that crystal ball of yours, so that I can dumb down my future posts for people who cannot reason rationally.

    8. Re:Amazon sucks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually took it up with my lawyer and had him review what happened. Unfortunately, they have a standard at-will clause in their employment contracts which says they can fire you if your socks dont match so even though I didnt do anything wrong and I can prove it, they still fired me because they could.

      If you really want a summary of what happened...
      1)someone posted an annoucement on twitter and facebook. No announcement on the main site.
      2)I told a few customers that it was a rumor. Come on, its facebook. We had not received any internal announcement about it.
      3)The next day we get an internal announcment saying its official. I retracted my statement.
      4)By the end of that day I was on suspension and fired 3 days later.

      Two possibilities. Either the Facebook announcement was legit (in which case I'm clean because there was already an official public statement, at most its a bad customer being lied to, of course without telling us it was coming there isnt much else we could do) or it was a leak (in which case I'm clean both because I had no restricted information about it to begin with, and denied it secondly). Its hard to break a confidentiality agreement by denying a rumor about which you have no information and which has already been announced in other channels.I suspect the facebook/twitter was a leak but I was more expendable than the developer who made it.

  6. Re: Wait by nomadic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    $300 for a device that's easier on the eyes than an LCD screen, and can store 1500 books? I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for what you get.

  7. Adobe makes MS look lean mean and nimble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Adobe generally has the biggest, bloated software of all of them. And they have a phoney upgrade cycle that adds the least value added in the new feature dept compared to everyone. And the stuff they acquire either is aborted or turned to shit. Like dreamweaver and their purchase of that great company that made the kollection toolkits. Only to kill it off.

    I feel like Amazon has been pretty cool, but even if they were Hitler incarnate, Adobe would be Stalin. I wouldn't feel any better with the new boss.

    1. Re:Adobe makes MS look lean mean and nimble by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Adobe generally has the biggest, bloated software of all of them. And they have a phoney upgrade cycle that adds the least value added in the new feature dept compared to everyone.

      You've clearly never used AutoCAD or dealt with AutoDesk. Adobe can't hold a candle to that racket.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Adobe makes MS look lean mean and nimble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This guy couldn't be more right. There is no software company in the world that could be compared to the nightmare that is Autodesk.

      AutoDesk are the only company I know that consistently ignores the pleas of its paying customers and actively taunts them.

      Back when I used 3DS Max at work, there was a list of bugs and niggles longer than my arm. The next version came out, and as usual everyone was forced to upgrade for fear of being incompatible. Not a single bug that annoyed us had been fixed, the only fix we knew they made was something we'd never come across. The new version was worse than the previous for many reasons.

      They ignore your feature requests and add features you'll never need. If you say you're switching to another product, they'll buy it and ruin it.

      When they bought Maya, it was like the end of the world for 3D animators. The forums flamed like I've never seen them flame before. People who'd jumped the 3DS Max ship to Maya were inconsolable. A good percentage of Maya & Max users are now waiting for blender to build up enough missing features so they can at least switch at home.

  8. War of the useless DRM, eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    DRM for text is silly.

    1. The analog hole is really large for text.
    2. There will always be a way to download the files from the net, assuming that the laws don't become insanely draconian.
    3. The small size of the files makes hiding them with steganography easy, and therefore makes prosecution harder.

    I might believe it if we were talking about text with a lot of extra goodies like hyperlinks.

  9. Adobe by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

    If Adobe manages to do as well of a job with this latest enterprise as they've done with Flash CS4, then Amazon should be handed the entire market on a platter. Flash CS4 is the single most painful, unresponsive program I've ever had the displeasure of using, and I'm shocked how the same engineers that can produce a program as high-quality as Photoshop can't manage to catch repetitive 10-20 second UI freezes in Flash during testing.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    1. Re:Adobe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect Adobe is not changing the codebase for their applications much at all. It would not surprise me to find that nearly all the code is some tangled mess from the distant past which they keep hacking at until it works. Photoshop started out good, so it remains so. Flash started out... not so good, and remains so.

      Some of their application clearly need to be re-written from the ground up. Flash should be first on the list.

    2. Re:Adobe by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree. The first change they need to make is to allow Flash to work reliably over a LAN. For software whose purpose is to create internet content, it seems a little ridiculous that their official policy is to not support any type of LAN use in any context.

      If anyone has Flash installed and wants to see what I'm talking about, open up Flash and use it to create or open a FLA file on a network share. With the file open, remove access to the network share. Now marvel as it's not possible to save the file anywhere, even on local storage. Even if the connection to the share gets re-established. This is how Flash has always worked, at least since I started using Flash 4, and that behavior remains in CS4 (Flash 10).

      You're probably right about the codebase, but I would be equally surprised if they've owned the Flash property for this long without rewriting it, considering the glaring problems.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    3. Re:Adobe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flash CS4 is the single most painful, unresponsive program I've ever had the displeasure of using

      Flash movies are the single most painful, unresponsive programs I've ever had the displeasure of using and whoever creates them deserves to be punished.

    4. Re:Adobe by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      There are so many little bugs in Adobe's products that have remained since I first used them, I think it's pretty obvious the codebase is stagnant.

      If they rewrote a significant part of Flash, I can't believe they'd leave it in its Macromedia-ish state. Its animating tools should feel like a blend of Illustrator and After Effects, not the very strange mix of vector and bitmap behaviour it has now.

    5. Re:Adobe by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      "With the file open, remove access to the network share."

      I know of very few programs that don't misbehave when you yank out a whole filesystem from underneath them.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    6. Re:Adobe by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Sure, but do you know of any other program that will not let you save an open file to local storage if that file was opened from a network share that no longer exists? We used to have DHCP leases expiring at some point in the middle of the day, so all the Flash developers would start screaming when their IP got renewed. No one else really had much of a problem when that happened, only the Flash guys. Even the most basic text editor I've got will let me save an open file anywhere I want, regardless of how I opened it or whether or not the original file or filesystem exists anymore.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    7. Re:Adobe by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, Adobe is making damn sure of that. Hopefully you also enjoy attending training seminars and classes, that way you won't have to use our online courseware from the comfort of your home or office.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    8. Re:Adobe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, Adobe is making damn sure of that. Hopefully you also enjoy attending training seminars and classes, that way you won't have to use our online courseware from the comfort of your home or office.

      I have nothing against attending seminars.

      But I'd rather have good courseware (online or not) which doesn't make me suffer and was created by people who didn't have to suffer in the creation process.

    9. Re:Adobe by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Consider that until CS3, Photoshop for Mac was a Carbon app (read: written using the OS 8/OS 9/OS X transition toolkit). Even with OS 9 being dead since 2002, Adobe still sreamed bloody murder over Apple stopping to fully support Carbon with Leopard, even though Apple has said since OS X was first released that Carbon was a legacy framework.

      Adobe really doesn't like rewriting things they don't absolutely have to rewrite.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  10. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There certainly won't be a market until the prices of automobiles come down. $20000? You gotta be crazy. Even at $3000 they would in any case likely never entice me completely away from horses.

    Fixed that for you.

  11. I am sure Amazon is happy being compared to Apple by iamacat · · Score: 0

    Umm. Classy, reliable hardware, great user interface and security in exchange for somewhat higher prices. Or cheap devices, crafty software and "interoperability" like Microsoft's PlayForSure? I am sure Amazon would love to be compared to Apple and have Sony/B&N be compared to Dell and Microsoft. I don't think Kindle is up to the sniff yet though. Decent device, still not enough screen contrast and no backlight for occasional night reading, too easy to do unintended things with the buttons.

  12. Re: Wait by rocket97 · · Score: 1

    There certainly won't be a market until the prices of the readers come down. $300? You gotta be crazy. Even at $50 they would in any case likely never entice me completely away from the real thing.

    Think of it as the MP3 player of the book world. I am sure the same thing was said when the first MP3 players came out.

    --
    "The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
  13. Re: Wait by rwa2 · · Score: 1

    Meh, $300 isn't bad considering you get free wireless web browsing with the unit. If someone made one in color with a GPS and offered that kind of data plan, I might actually consider ditching my mobile phone company's wap browsing service.

  14. Re: Wait by Reason58 · · Score: 1

    $300 for a device that's easier on the eyes than an LCD screen, and can store 1500 books? I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for what you get.

    I would agree with you, except you still have to purchase all 1,500 books. And they are not discounted to reflect the savings of no physical production, shipping, storefront, etc.

  15. Re: Wait by natehoy · · Score: 1

    While I agree with you, I think you're confusing the terms "market" and "desire on your own personal part".

    Amazon has, several times, run out of stock on the Kindle in its various incarnations. Barnes and Noble's Nook is currently on backorder until mid-January. Both of these facts point to a good market for e-book readers.

    However, like you, I don't see enough benefit from them. Yes, the form factor would be nice, but spending $250-$300 for the right to repurchase my library in a new format and cut me off from my primary book supply (library sales and used book sales)? Uhhhhh... no. Just no.

    That doesn't mean there isn't a market for them, just that you and I are not part of it until:

    1. Prices come down.
    2. They come up with some way to resell books and/or transfer licenses legally for "loaning" and resale.
    3. I can buy books from multiple sources and have them all work on one reader.

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  16. Re: Wait by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

    ePub. It works on all of the above, and all ebook readers except the Kindle. (And is the one they are talking about in the article.) It's an open format, with DRM extensions. (Adobe, here, is the main seller of DRM-encoding software for it.)

    --
    'Sensible' is a curse word.
  17. Got to Side with Amazon on this one by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So Amazon thinks through a problem and designs an elegant solution, takes care of the software, hardware, and marketing.

    Adobe just wants to inject their proprietary technology into a process and sit back and enjoy the royalties.

    Screw Adobe. They don't even do any coding here in the US anymore.

    1. Re:Got to Side with Amazon on this one by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So Amazon thinks through a problem and designs an elegant solution, takes care of the software, hardware, and marketing ...

      ... and vendor lock-in. Not really any different from Adobe's proprietary DRM.

      That said, I would still pick Adobe in this fight, since their win means that I can buy a (DRM'd) ebook from any of a large list of online stores, use it on a large list of readers from different manufacturers, and switch from reader to reader and from store to store as I see fit. With Amazon, I'm locked into their store and their product line.

    2. Re:Got to Side with Amazon on this one by openfrog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There seems to be an alternative definition of 'openness' in the corporate environment, in view of Amazon trying to defend from Adobe's accusation of 'not playing with others':

      Openness: acting in concert with other vendors to screw consumers

      According to this definition, Adobe is comparing itself with Microsoft who, indeed, plays quite well with others...

      Fascinating...

    3. Re:Got to Side with Amazon on this one by Mex · · Score: 1

      Aren't Kindle books shareable between any device that has the Kindle app installed?

      I have a couple of Kindles and they share any books I buy (registered to the same person), although I havent tried to buy a book for the iPhone app, isn't it shared there too?

    4. Re:Got to Side with Amazon on this one by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Aren't Kindle books shareable between any device that has the Kindle app installed?

      I'm not interested in non-eInk devices, and eInk ones are usually not extensible application-wise (and even if they were, I doubt Amazon would consider porting to them).

      My point is that two devices that I have are already from different manufacturers, and the next ebook reader that I'll buy (likely next year) will probably be something else still - at this point I'm leaning towards Nook, but I'll have to hold it and see it with my own eyes to be sure. And my collection of books (which are all TXT or PDF) moves from reader to reader with ease. But if I buy Kindle today, and buy books from Amazon store, then my next reader will have to be Kindle++ (or whatever it is) - or I lose the books.

  18. Re: Wait by cptdondo · · Score: 0

    When I can stick a reader in my back pocket, toss it on the table, leave it out on the deck overnight and have it get soaked in dew, I'll buy one.

    Until then it's an expensive toy.

    It stores more than a book, but it's expensive and fragile and big.

  19. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yeah... "purchase"... rrriiiiiiiiggghhht

  20. Being like Apple? Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple being "secretive and playing badly with others" is the main reason we have a mostly DRM-free music market these days.
    We can only hope that Amazon will be so helpfully and successfully obstinate.

  21. Re: Wait by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Unless you read any public domain or creative commons books. I've read well over 100 public domain books on my iLiad so far. If I'd bought them all as penguin classics then it would have cost me more. I've also read a few textbooks and a huge number of papers on it. The clutter reduction from not having printed copies of them all lying around the place.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  22. Poor Adobe... by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

    No-one will ever let them play in the same playground. Maybe it has something to do with their j2ee'esq server apps (anyone who has ever configured them knows what I'm talking about) or the fact that their server software is REALLY expensive compared to what Amazon already rolled.

    1. Re:Poor Adobe... by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

      I've used several of their video server apps, and besides trying to figure out which ones you need to accomplish a task (good luck), they are a mess to install and configure.

      Other than Coldfusion, which works great, installs easy, runs in j2ee, but is treated as a "not developed here" solution.

    2. Re:Poor Adobe... by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      Ahh - I've never used cold fusion really - I was thinking about their livecycle apps (which is what this ebook thing is all about) not quite 100% j2ee compatible.

      Getting them running on jboss was a lesson in torture.

  23. How so ? by Antiocheian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The story title reads: "Adobe Takes On Microsoft Role In E-book Market" yet the only reference I found on Microsoft, on both linked articles, is this:

    Though Adobe may balk at the comparison, its role in the e-book market is similar to Microsoft's in the PC market: a builder of a semi-open ecosystem of partners to whom it sells publishing tools.

    So, what does Microsoft have to do with both articles really ?

    1. Re:How so ? by babblefrog · · Score: 1

      Badly worded. It means that Adobe's role in the e-book space is similar to Microsoft's role in the PC space.

    2. Re:How so ? by gardel999 · · Score: 1

      It's Slashdot, silly.

    3. Re:How so ? by spatley · · Score: 1

      no kidding, that headline is retarded and misleading, even for /.

    4. Re:How so ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Openness.

      so Microsoft has an open ecosystem unlike apple and Adobe wants to have an open ecosystem for eReaders unlike Amazon. That's what I got out of it

  24. Adobe vs Apple by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Adobe paints Amazon as being like Apple: secretive and playing badly with others.

    Oh yeah, because Adobe Flash sure plays nice on Mac OS X. /sarcasm

    1. Re:Adobe vs Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adobe paints Amazon as being like Apple: secretive and playing badly with others.

      Oh yeah, because Adobe Flash sure plays nice on Mac OS X. /sarcasm

      Well, that's obviously Apple's fault :P

    2. Re:Adobe vs Apple by initialE · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? There's a problem with flash on osx? How is it I've never run across it?

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    3. Re:Adobe vs Apple by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Probably the same problem as on every other OS: It's damn slow. One reason why I'm eagerly awaiting HTML5 is that it might mean we could get online video without runtime-induced stuttering.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  25. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude. Shelves.

  26. Drm feh by jack2000 · · Score: 1

    What's wrong with postscript? It was made to deal with text...

    1. Re:Drm feh by krmt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Postscript (and by extension, PDF) doesn't reflow at all, which makes it a pain to use for different sized small screens like ebook readers.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    2. Re:Drm feh by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with postscript? It was made to deal with text...

      It was made to deal with preformatted and layed out text. It's not reflowable.

    3. Re:Drm feh by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      I could adjust the page size in a latex file and then run pdflatex. Aside from the difficulty of editing pdfs, is it easy to change the page size?

  27. Re: Wait by JonStewartMill · · Score: 1

    Except I don't think we're going to see people transferring their existing library of paper books to ebook format. If the only way I could get MP3s was to buy them, even if I already own the same music on CD -- especially if I already own it -- I might still be dubbing cassettes to play on my Walkman.

  28. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

    Apple being "secretive and playing badly with others" is the main reason we have a mostly DRM-free music market these days. We can only hope that Amazon will be so helpfully and successfully obstinate.

    Amazon's mp3 store really did the trick in moving the whole market (read: Apple) to DRM-free music.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  29. a cross platform standard format by wiredog · · Score: 1

    There is. Epub is open and is supported by everyone except Amazon.

    1. Re:a cross platform standard format by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      PDF is pretty well supported by nearly everyone too. Even Amazon supports it (albeit with a PC-based converter in their case)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    2. Re:a cross platform standard format by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 2, Informative

      PDF isn't an ebook format. It's an e-paper format. It gets used for ebooks fairly often, but it's not very good at it.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    3. Re:a cross platform standard format by gander666 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. PDF just doesn't cut it as a format for eReaders. My Sony can display them, but native Word docs are handled better...

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    4. Re:a cross platform standard format by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The main problem with PDFs is simple: People seem to think 'pages' are a good idea for book. They aren't. The are an artifact of using a printing press, and are the best way available for paper books to be assembled.

      Books are stretches of text, possibly divided into chapters. Pages are interruptions in the reading experience. Pages that aren't the same size as your reading area just interrupt your reading experience multiple times.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    5. Re:a cross platform standard format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The main problem with PDFs is simple: People seem to think 'pages' are a good idea for book. They aren't.....Pages are interruptions in the reading experience."

      This is why the latest versions of PDF allow for 'reflow'...meaning you can reformat it how you want for whatever device you want.

      Personally, I like seeing layout in the way that things were designed...most of the books I read are highly technical and need to be formatted in a way that presents the information in way to connect several things together on the page so I don't care for the reflow capabilities (i.e., I bought a Kindle a few months ago knowing I could convert PDFs...I didn't know they were going to convert it into something that looked nothing like the pages I needed to read...I sent it back and hoping that the Nook will do things as presented).

      But yeah, most PDFs these days are not just epaper devices...they aren't just for layout...you can easily get away from the PAGES idea (and it worked well for the few novels I read on my Kindle before sending it back, but that wasn't the goal of buying it...it was to save carrying a dozen texts and a few hundred PDFs that I need for my thesis).

    6. Re:a cross platform standard format by Jearil · · Score: 1

      Actually the Kindle 2 (non DX version) now supports PDF files natively without conversion as of a recent software update.

      Unfortunately as others have mentioned, PDF is a really shitty format for ebooks. You can't reflow the contents to do things like change the font. Plain text, ePub, or mobipocket are better formats to have ebooks in.

    7. Re:a cross platform standard format by Painted · · Score: 1

      I agree with the parent post- ePub is a dog's breakfast when it comes to anything other than a novel; it has all of the "advantages" of HTML- no real formatting, no real way to keep tables, charts, pictures etc. in position with their text.

      I work for a publisher who does a lot of nature guides, bird books, and the like, and the current state of ePub is almost completely useless for us. If we want to take a Bird Guide and convert it to ePub, we end up almost completely hand tweaking it to fit each individual device, application, and screen size. The parallels to coding web pages for IE5, IE6 IE5 on Mac, etc. are staggering- it's like the industry didn't learn a single lesson from the development of the web.

      Currently, we feel that device specific apps are just about the only* possible way for us to publish our content electronically, and that obviously raises the cost of development considerably. If the reflowable PDF format the parent mentioned helps, but we almost need a "fat" PDF that has tweaks for different screen resolutions embedded directly in it...

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    8. Re:a cross platform standard format by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      Then why isn't there a "page" tag?

      For ePub and for HTML, for that matter... It would be cool, you could make your site fit in one page for readers that support it. (I guess just ebook readers). It would also mean that publishers could just use HTML with a container for any images/audio/DRM they might want to curse us with.

      Or you could publish your own books just by incorporating some HTML tags.

      Do any ebook readers support HTML + CSS?

  30. Re: Wait by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    OT, but how does your iLiad and your Mac get along?

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  31. Re: Wait by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    If it were a device that didn't hugely suck for web browsing, the data plan would be a lot more expensive...

  32. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple being "secretive and playing badly with others" is the main reason we have a mostly DRM-free music market these days.

    So, Napster, bittorrent, and that ancient protocol that shall not be named, had nothing to do with it? Quite frankly, you are being ridiculous.

  33. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A $300 for a device that's easier on the eyes than an LCD screen, and can store 1500 books?

    You could build some pretty nice shelves with $300 worth of lumber...
    But the portability might suffer.

  34. Re: Wait by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    And it's more like $250 now, really. The prices are going down, slowly but surely (it used to be $350 for then-new eInk readers ~2 years ago).

  35. Re: Wait by Fizzol · · Score: 1

    Also, there are a lot of books that publishers give away to build readership. Amazon's Kindle store shows about 60-65 non-classic books being offered for free.

  36. Re: Wait by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
    I would agree with you, except you still have to purchase all 1,500 books.

    There is a LOT of free stuff available, especially older material. Get thee to mobiread.com. Much of what's there is Gutenberg reformatted, but there's still a lot of stuff. When you tire of that, get thee to archive.org, which lists 1.8 MILLION texts online. A lot of them are PDF. The Sony 505 handles the b/w pdf ok. Chokes on color PDF.

    For newer stuff, get thee to fictionwise.com. I just bought one book at what I would call a ridiculous price, but the full purchase price was rebated into a micropay account which I can use to pay for other stuff. The $20 I paid for "I Am America" is going to wind up paying for monthly copies of Analog magazine.

    Some of what fictionwise sells is in "multi-format". Wazzat? You can download your purchase in any or all of a large number of formats, including PDF or LRF or even Palm. Analog, for example. I have copies of one month on my Sony 505 in PDF and LRF format, and the same issue on my Palm. The palm doesn't have the pretty pictures, but it has the text.

    That doesn't even begin to cover the large number of sites that have free pdf versions of stuff.

    I think I've bought about ten things for my 505, half of which are the latest issues of Analog. Two books. Sony gave away 100 free books with the 505. And I'm up to almost 900 "books" (a few books are broken into upto 20 chapters, each of which counts as a "book" in the main page display, so I'm not at a real 900, but probably 600 is a good estimate). A lot of those are manuals for radios and electronic stuff, but I can never say "I have nothing to read" if my 505 is close by (and it always is).

  37. Re: Wait by masmullin · · Score: 1

    No "they|we" didn't. We already had to purchase expensive equipment to play music with, since CDs and tapes didn't play themselves. With books all you have to pay for is well, the book.

  38. Its about the content, and the price by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Have you seen the prices for Sony Reader books? My wife wants a reader for Christmas, so she looked up some of the books she bought over the last year, and the ones she plans to buy in the next months or so. Amazon came in at about 2/3 the cost of Sony, and B&N doesn't have an ereader store (or an ereader that will ship before the biggest consumer day in the western world - nice job, guys). Since the readers are comparable in price and features, the Kindle - for all its flaws - wins out for someone who just wants to buy and read books.

    Adobe better figure out a way to make the books on their platform, and the platform itself, cheaper. A lot cheaper. Otherwise they're going to be paired with also-rans to the market/mindshare leader, which is Kindle. Yeah, I'd say Apple is the right comparison. What's worse (for adobe) is that there really are no mainstream competitors for the iPod in the end-to-end usability pile. That's hard for me to say, since I'm not a fan of iPods, but it is still the truth.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Its about the content, and the price by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Amazon came in at about 2/3 the cost of Sony, and B&N doesn't have an ereader store

      They have an ereader app available for several platforms (including iPhone) and a ereader store, even though their dedicated ereader device is not yet shipping.

    2. Re:Its about the content, and the price by gabereiser · · Score: 0

      or at least until the rumored Apple Tablet debuts (if ever, I'm still not holding my breath). Some say they are trying to turn it into an e-reader style tablet for publishers. My take is if I want a versatile ebook reader, I'll just buy a netbook for the same price as a kindle. Up yours Adobe and Amazon!

    3. Re:Its about the content, and the price by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      B&N doesn't have an ereader store (or an ereader that will ship before the biggest consumer day in the western world - nice job, guys).

      Barnes & Noble has been selling ebooks on their site for quite some time now. Further, most of their normal books have an indicator right on the page when they are available in ebook format.

      Their ereader is available for download on the iPhone/iPod Touch, Blackberry, PC, and Mac - and has been for a while.

      The nook's first shipments have already gone out. Several of those shipments will be on doorsteps well before Christmas. There was plenty of opportunity, if you had already made up your mind, to purchase one in time for Christmas. Granted, they're now back-ordered... If you buy one today it won't ship until January 15th... But what do you expect with a brand new electronic device launching just in time for Christmas? It isn't like this is the first time a hot new Christmas gift has been hard to get. Either plan ahead, or deal with the delay.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    4. Re:Its about the content, and the price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were you, I'd give your wife a good fisting. She enjoyed it when I fisted her!

  39. Re: Wait by farble1670 · · Score: 1

    first, it's not easier on the eyes, or lighter than a $5 paperback. second, how many people need 1500 books on hand? the vast majority of people actually read (cover-cover) one single book at a time. if it's reference material you want, it's easier and more current to google for the info, and you can do that from your smartphone that you are carrying anyway and the information will be more up to date.

  40. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No "they|we" didn't. We already had to purchase expensive equipment to play music with, since CDs and tapes didn't play themselves. With books all you have to pay for is well, the book.

    Where did s/he say "they|we"? S/He was just making a statement that is very true. And with your logic, I guess you still get the newspaper delivered to you rather than reading it on your computer. I mean after all you only have to buy the newspaper and not get that "expensive equipment" to read it.

  41. Re: Wait by nomadic · · Score: 1

    Actually, one of the Sony reader models is $199, though with a slightly smaller screen than the kindle or nook.

  42. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    It's only been a few years and people are already quoting incorrect information about this...

    You think Amazon just decided unilaterally to sell non-DRM'ed music? You think Apple wanted DRM'ed music?

    1. Apple asked the record companies to remove DRM. The companies refused.

    2. The record companies were getting more and more afraid of Apple's hold on the market. That's why they gave Amazon the authorization to sell non-DRM'ed MP3 files (not to mention compatibility problems with the huge installed base of portable players if they had insisted on such a thing for MP3). The record companies wanted to break Apple's hold on the music download market by allowing Amazon to sell "better files".

    3. After seeing that, Apple demanded to remove DRM from the music files too, but also asked to sell higher bitrates in the process, that's why it's now 256kbits AAC instead of 128kbps AAC.

    4. All the iPods suddenly had half the storage space, tune-count wise. The iTunes files went back to being the superior files (MP3@128kbps vs AAC@256kbps). More profits for Apple for still having the best music files to sell and selling bigger iPods to customers.

  43. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

    True, but people do forget that Apple wedged the door open: Theirs was the first non-uber-draconian DRM. (And could be broken, with Apple's own default install, right at launch.) At the time, it was a major step forward, and something only Apple could have pulled off.

    Once they showed that the piracy boogyman wasn't as bad as was feared, and started showing exactly how much power even that little bit of DRM got Apple, then the music companies were willing to talk to others like Amazon about going without.

    --
    'Sensible' is a curse word.
  44. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    first, it's not easier on the eyes, or lighter than a $5 paperback. second, how many people need 1500 books on hand? the vast majority of people actually read (cover-cover) one single book at a time. if it's reference material you want, it's easier and more current to google for the info, and you can do that from your smartphone that you are carrying anyway and the information will be more up to date.

    Yeah, becaussmartphone service prices are such a GREAT deal.

  45. at 400 by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Amazon has sold bunches, so while it may not be YOUR market at these prices, there is one.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  46. Re: Wait by gander666 · · Score: 1

    Cool. Another Analog reader. I toyed with the e-subscription on my reader, but I just prefer the pulp rag when I read it... Maybe next year...

    --
    Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
  47. Re: Wait by gander666 · · Score: 1

    I travel. A lot. I am gone, out of the country, in places where I can't get english language books. I used to hit the used book store before a 3 week trip, and buy 10-12 books to read and discard. Now I use my Sony e-Reader, and my luggage is MUCH lighter and more portable. And if I find that I am not enjoying a book, I don't feel that I wasted space and time lugging it on a trip. I can just move onto something more enjoyable. e-Readers have greatly improved my life, and I can't imaging living without mine...

    --
    Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
  48. Re: Wait by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

    Imagine how much money libraries of the future could save, by sending you your book electronically. They would save a fortune in shipping books around between libraries, storing them, etc. I know, they would always have books for historical reasons, but if I could log onto my libraries web site, and request a book, and then instantly get it online, that would make me use it much more. (my current library does the first 2, and emails me when my book is in, but I still have to drive 7 miles down to the library, during their business hours, which are getting scarcer and scarcer..

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  49. Re: Wait by Narpak · · Score: 1

    $300 for a device that's easier on the eyes than an LCD screen, and can store 1500 books? I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for what you get.

    Personally I wouldn't pay $300 for the current available models, they are (in my opinion) not good enough; but I have no doubt that a few years down the line the quality of the readers will be such that I would have no doubt paying $300 or more; maybe even a lot more. For now I am content waiting for the technology and services to improve to what I would consider an acceptable level. I still remember my first mp3 player, and my first mobile phone; large, chunky, heavy, low battery time, poor UI, and generally stone age tools compared to their current equivalent. But while my player and phone provided functions I felt a genuine need for, an e-reader would have to be fairly good to get me away from books on paper. But as I said, only a matter of time; and I whole heartily support companies creating new readers to compete with what is available to date.

    My greatest concern so far is the restrictions and regulations hindering the development of a proper online service for buying, accessing, and sorting through the e-books you have purchased. Personally I would love to see something as user friendly as Steam for buying and downloading your books, or subscribing to regular releases like magazines or comics. But as far as I know the various distribution deals, not to mention various nations regulation, makes the creation of this type of service, particularly for the European market, a pain in the nutsack.

  50. Have you heard of the internet? by Rix · · Score: 1

    I hear there's rampant copyright violation there.

  51. How about $90 by argent · · Score: 1

    How about $90?

    Yeh, it doesn't have the fancy screen, it's a bit like a late '90s PDA with a bigger screen, but I read ebooks on a late '90s PDA with a 160x160 display for several years.

  52. Who cares about DRMed eBooks? by argent · · Score: 1

    Been there, done that, applied the Preparation H, won't go there again.

    I've still got (and read) books I bought 30-40 years ago. DRMed content is lucky to survive five years before the company decides keeping the magic servers up isn't profitable and you're unable to migrate the content to the next version of the platform... if there is one.

    1. Re:Who cares about DRMed eBooks? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Within the letter of the law anyway, most drm schemes are cracked straightaway (but that doesn't change the fact that purchases are an implicit endorsement of the schemes in general).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Who cares about DRMed eBooks? by argent · · Score: 1

      Plus the DRMed versions cost about 3-4 times as much as the exact same books non-DRMed. What's up with that?

  53. Re: Wait by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

    There certainly won't be a market until the prices of the readers come down. $300? You gotta be crazy.

    For a heavy reader, buying a couple new books a month in e-book format instead of hardback can save $300 in a year or two.

  54. Re: Wait by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

    When I can stick a reader in my back pocket, toss it on the table, leave it out on the deck overnight and have it get soaked in dew, I'll buy one.

    You can do all of that now.

  55. pssst... the drm is easily breakable by Dster76 · · Score: 1

    Folks, the Adobe DRM for eBooks is laughably easy to break. Please, guys, keep all this quiet. Adobe DRMed books can be easily turned into non-DRMed ePubs that are reflowable, portable, and in OPEN STANDARDS format.

    Please, don't make too much noise that might change my favorite ebook store's (shortcovers) mind about using a DRM format that's easy to break into something nice.

  56. Re: Wait by cptdondo · · Score: 1

    Really? Which reader fits in a back pocket? And, can I sit on the bus or the train with it in my pocket?

    How tough are the readers? The ones I've seen all look fairly fragile - like a simple elbow on the screen would render it useless.

  57. Adobe winning will kill off DRM free e-books by Mr_Silver · · Score: 1

    If you want a future where e-books are DRM free then you need to hope that the same thing happens with e-books as it did with music.

    That is, one company having the majority of the market, not licencing their DRM solution and publishers having to resort to DRM free products if they want to sell outside of the walled garden.

    Since Adobe will licence their technology to anyone who wants it, there is no incentive for the publishers to give up on DRM. Which, for e-books at least, means it'll be here to stay for a while...

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
  58. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon's MP3 files are encoded at 256kbps variable-bitrate (according to wikipedia).

  59. Re: Wait by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

    $300 for a device that's easier on the eyes than an LCD screen, and can store 1500 books? I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for what you get.

    I would agree with you, except you still have to purchase all 1,500 books. And they are not discounted to reflect the savings of no physical production, shipping, storefront, etc.

    As many have already pointed out, there are plenty of public domain ebooks available from Project Gutenberg and Google Books.

    Some publishers also give away free ebooks to build readership - like the Baen Free Library.

    Some libraries also lend ebooks. My local library does, and we're a pretty small town. I'd imagine that if my library is doing it, it must be fairly widespread.

    Also, while most ebooks are not discounted, there are some available. I've been watching the Barnes & Noble website for a couple months now and they'll periodically have a decent ebook on sale for just a dollar or two. I've picked up several that way.

    Plus, both the Kindle and the nook can read PDFs. I don't know about you, but most of the manuals I get these days are PDFs. It is much easier to read a PDF on something small and portable with a paper-like screen than to print out everything you need, or keep running back to a computer to read it.

    And then there's the possibility of subscribing to a newspaper or magazine on the thing.

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  60. Re: Wait by NitroWolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There certainly won't be a market until the prices of the readers come down. $300? You gotta be crazy. Even at $50 they would in any case likely never entice me completely away from the real thing.

    You clearly don't travel a lot, especially internationally.

    EBook readers are frigging great. I have one... while I'm totally unhappy with the quality over all of *EVERY* e-book reader out there, the benefit outweighs the problems, if only marginally. The fact is, I have a very limited amount of space to carry my things. On 8 - 14 hour flights, I can easily go through a 700 page book if not two. There is no way I can carry around 4 700 page books, at a minimum, on each flight along with all my other gear. MY EBook reader has 120 books on it and it fits in my photo gear bag, which is a mandatory carry on for me. My photobag might... MIGHT fight 1 700 page book when it's fully loaded. If I'm halfway through that book and board a 14 hour flight, I'd be screwed. With the ebook reader, I know I have a bucket load of additional reading material to keep me from getting arrested by the air marshals for beating up idiotic passengers.

  61. Re:Being like Apple? Good. by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    AAC is better than MP3, but thanks for the correction about the bitrate. And at least iTunes isn't limited to four countries.

  62. PDF is like Flash... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PDF is only "not very good at" ebooks in the same way, and for the same reasons, that Flash is "not very good" at webpages.

    Both were designed to enforce the content creator's desired formatting, layout and other presentation characteristics regardless of the viewer's preferences. If you want to view the content on a screen of different size or resolution or with eyes that require larger-size content then too bad.

    What I find weird is that Adobe had one of the early implementations of a functional way to bridge between rigid adherence to the content creator's presentation wishes and diverse viewers' preferences with the 'hinting' feature of their Type 1 PostScript font format but, to my limited knowledge, they haven't seen fit to provide something similar for the PDF or Flash content formats.

    1. Re:PDF is like Flash... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PDF(The core features) is great, there is a need for perfect formatting, and a demand for it even when it is undesirable(see CSS). It's your fault for thinking that PDF is a format for eBooks at all. The content organization doesn't matter, you have other formats for that. PDF is all about an unified readable/printable look.

      Wanting to extract content from PDFs is stupid. Usually if whomever is distributing the PDF wanted you to have easy access to the data at all, they would give you their raw database. No need to extract it from XML or TeX rich text.

      PDF is great for documentation. Editable content is for other formats(Which shouldn't do formatting at all), and accessible content is not a job for document formats at all.

  63. Re: Wait by BobMcD · · Score: 1

    It still doesn't wash:

    1) Your iLiad cost $700 or so, not $300

    2) $7 per public domain book is rather obtainable, on average

    3) A library card costs (nearly) nothing, and would help with your space issues

    4) Many of these same materials are accessible online with a device you already own for other purposes

    "I wanted one" is an excellent justification for your purchase. "I saved money" is probably not.

  64. Re: Wait by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
    Cool. Another Analog reader. I toyed with the e-subscription on my reader, but I just prefer the pulp rag when I read it...

    I prefer paper, too, but I'm a year and a half behind reading the paper version. I put each new one on the shelf until I get time to read it, and when I get time to read it it's never where I am. Sometimes I pick a few off the shelf when I go on a trip, but then I either run out while on the trip or don't finish and forget to put the ones I didn't read back on the shelf.

    The e-version goes where I go. It doesn't bleed ink from the covers or pages onto my fingers. I can read the pdf version on my desktop instead of working.

    What did you think about the ending to the "climb a square mountain" story -- can't recall the official title? I was seriously dissappointed. Just when the hero of the story was about to get things straightened out, a reincarnated dead woman with apparently supernatural powers shows up and takes over. All that great setup, designing the planet and working out the side-effects, and then Goddess comes in and makes it all better. And the issue with the colonists killing something intelligent. As I recall, that intelligent thing they killed was carrying a spear and attacking them at the time. Anyway. A big letdown.

  65. Re: Wait by Zerth · · Score: 1

    It'd be nice if somebody came up with a cheapish, nondestructive paperback digitizer.

    If you don't mind slicing off the binding you can just get a drop scanner for ~250, but I'm a bit squeamish about that.

    Hardbacks are easy, there's at least one DIY system thats pretty fast.

  66. Re: Wait by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

    E-book needs are not all the great for everyone for sure, but their practicality is also unmatched by any other one device.
    Do you know of a device that lasts days on a charge gives you access to that web content on the move, and will cost me a total of less than $400 (figure a dozen paid books, a hundred free ones) for a couple years, to acquire and use consistently.
    Also these readers do let you put notes into the works also. I know I had a link to a site that gave me the design I wanted for my concrete block wall, rafters, etc... Now gone from the web.
    For programming books, sure web is good. But I sure wish I had all of my old college books, and notes with me many times. So many specialized little references to business law, chemistry, and a few other little gems that would be very handy to have without trying to find the right search terms.
    Even just Professional-Reference codebooks, anyone fact can be looked up on the web but I don't always have web, and they just aren't bundled together enough to make a convenient local copy.

  67. Re: Wait by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    The file syncing doesn't work; the iLiad refuses to talk to the Samba server on OS X (apparently it works for others, not for me). I just pop out the memory card and copy files across that way. I download most of them from FeedBooks, which has a nice iLiad preset and uses LaTeX to typeset books for the correct size (it generates PDFs).

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  68. Re: Wait by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My iLiad cost around £200 (I didn't pay full price). £2 per public domain book is what I pay for books (including ones in the public domain) from a local charity shop. The space issues are for papers, not for books: I have lots of book shelves, but my desk was piled high with research papers that I'd printed. Most of the materials I've read on it could have been read on other devices, but I've read vastly more on it than on my Nokia 770 and I can't read things in the park during the summer on any other device I own (which is when I got the most use from my iLiad so far). 'I wanted one' was the reason that I got it, but over its lifetime I've got reasonable value from it. One thing that I didn't mention was travelling. I can take a few dozen books to read on the train or plane or in hotels when I'm travelling. They would take up most of my hand luggage if I took paper copies (not to mention weighing vastly more).

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  69. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much would you pay for book shelves? Can you put the shelves in your pocket? How much do you pay per square foot for the space for your shelves and the space around them?

  70. Re: Wait by natehoy · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't even mind if I could buy digital forms of older books for the same price I pay for my paperbacks, which is usually between 50 cents and a dollar. I'm not talking about new releases, but stuff that's been out for a few years in mass market paperback.

    But, alas, I don't see a market in used e-books starting up anytime soon.

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  71. Re: Wait by daisybelle · · Score: 1

    the vast majority of people actually read (cover-cover) one single book at a time

    I call BS on this one! 1. Breakfast/lunchtime book. 2. night-time book. 3. lounge-room book. 4. book (normally 1-3) i started reading but got vaguely bored of but haven't given up on completely. 4. academic papers/books that are on the go (normally around 3-10).

    I might read a single book cover-to-cover with an especially good book sometimes, but since I listen to audiobooks too, and since I'd probably be in the middle of several others anyway, this is pretty rare.

    --
    "You only get ONE LIFE." Richard Rahl, Faith of the Fallen - Terry Goodkind
  72. In other words, one vendor is marginally better... by weston · · Score: 1

    ... than one retailer, when it comes to choice.

  73. I want some of BOTH worlds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope it means Amazon will adopt a format usable by other ebook stores (or provide the format by opening their own).
    But I also hope to keep buying through Amazon, because their cloud-based service platform is awesome. My books reside in the cloud, I can lose my Kindle and not worry about backups etc. Whispernet delivery beats anything currently available (though the Nook will have an equivalent).

    Yes, I'm also hoping that the platform wars will lead to other needed improvements in Amazon's offering. Not being able to lend or sell a book is bogus. Not being able to borrow a library e-book is bogus. Not being able to migrate to a future non-Amazon device is bogus.

    Competition should be a good thing. Fingers crossed....

  74. Re: Wait by Mex · · Score: 1

    Kindle is 259 right now. If you read a lot of books, the thing pays for itself just in shipping (specially if you're international).

  75. Re: Wait by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    For you. For me the reasonable price for this (where I would buy one) lies at $20-25. That’s right. That’s how much a dollar from me is worth to me.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  76. Re: Wait by nomadic · · Score: 1

    Well I guess it does come down to at some level what money is worth to you. $300 isn't pocket change but it's not going to put me out in the streets.

  77. Re: Wait by Jorophose · · Score: 1

    Can ebook readers display images in PDFs?

    It would be nice if when you bought a paperback or hardcover, the store automagically gave you an ebook version. Would be very nice, actually... But then you could just turn around and sell the deadtree copy and keep the ebook.

    Might as well just download the book and buy the printed copy if you want it too.

  78. Re: Wait by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

    Sorry--it looks like you had an unstated requirement in your original request. You want to stick it in a back pocket, toss it on a table, and soak it with dew and have it still work. With that additional last requirement, I don't think they are there yet.