Slashdot Mirror
Judges Can't "Friend" Lawyers in Florida
Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times reports that Florida's Judicial Ethics Advisory Committee has found in a recent opinion that judges and lawyers can no longer be Facebook friends. The committee says that when judges 'friend' lawyers who may appear before them, it creates the appearance of a conflict of interest, since it 'reasonably conveys to others the impression that these lawyer "friends" are in a special position to influence the judge.' Stephen Gillers, a legal ethics expert at New York University, says the Florida rule goes too far. 'In my view, they are being hypersensitive because in the case of a truly close friendship between a judge and a lawyer involved in a case, the other side can simply seek to disqualify the judge. Judges do not "drop out of society when they become judges," Gillers says. "The people who were their friends before they went on the bench remained their friends, and many of them were lawyers." Still, legal sycophants can take heart: lawyers can declare themselves Facebook "fans" of judges, the committee says, "as long as the judge or committee controlling the site cannot accept or reject the lawyer's listing of himself or herself on the site."'"
Gives new meaning to the term "throwing the book" at you...
A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the Judge.
This ruling changes nothing. It will only serve to keep Florida judges off Facebook.
Seriously? most judges start as lawyers no?
People tend to befriend people with common interests no?
I'm glad to be part of a country where people are still people.
Jack Thompson and Judge Judy are going to have to keep it on the down low from now on...
When are we going to realize that the further we push issues like this, the more damage we're doing to our society. Pretty soon it's going to be illegal to look at someone if they're having a bad hair day assuming it's Thursday of the 5th month with a full moon happening within 3 days.
Is lonely because no one wants to friend him in Facebook.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
of how social networks are only going to bite you in the ass eventually.
Of course, there's no problem if they all play golf together at their country club. It's the "appearance" of conflict of interest thats the problem here, not the "actual" conflict of interest that goes on all the time.
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
At first blush it may seem silly, but the perception of equality before the law is as important as the reality. When the people lose confidence in the legal system it's effectiveness is degraded automatically.
Of course at this point it may be "bailing the ocean with a fork" to try to restore that confidence. That is another story though.
If Hollywood has taught me anything about the Judiciary system, its that the prosecution and the judge are always the best of friends, know each other by first name, and might even have a heart to heart during recess.
Seriously though, I'm sure it'd be more beneficial if they tried to stop the ACTUAL conflict of interest instead of trying to stop THE APPEARANCE of conflict of interest.
This is just dumb; you're still going to have conflict of interest anyway because these people are most like friends outside of facebook.
Frankly, if I had to go before a court, I definitely would be very perturbed if the opposing lawyer was a friend of the judge-- yes, even a "facebook friend."
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
This sounds like a legit rule to me.
If friends lists are public (and they now are, because FB no longer allows you to hide that), then by friending someone you make a public statement.
I think public statements should be taken seriously if made by people in official positions.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
I'm sorry, I might be a bit behind the times but... does anybody above the age of 16 actually use Facebook?! I'm 27, and Facebook has been around for quite some time now, and I still cannot find what the appeal is.
If you want to know what someone is doing, why not ask them?! You *DO* have their phone number don't you? They ARE your friend aren't they?..
At any rate, what could possibly be *fun* for a grown educated adult like a judge on Facebook? Can anyone enlighten me?
The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Cue Florida judges friending every lawyer in the state...
Judges are human beings and by nature are biased by their own thinking.
Unless it happens during a leap year.
Best Slashdot Co
Do we stop judges from hooking up with their lawyer friends in public or at the bar, do we spend tax payer money to determine how this can affect us, and how we should proceed....then the same is said for this. Why waste tax payers money on this...
if the judge hooks up with a lawyer thereby compromising his integrity, the opposition would have to prove of this, by having them followed and later give proof of the meetings. This is a way of them to try and deter this from happening virtually, but for them to think facebook is the only one and it's kind is retarded. Think msn hotmail, gmail, yahoo, even an online game like WoW has chatting integrated into it. Stop thenm from playing WoW too with others...come on...you got to be kidding me.
If they want to talk, they will, PGP is good for that...encrypt your messages from anynomous to anonymous, then you have really nothing...just a waste of tax payer dollars to conduct a study on why we should not allow judges with lawyer friends on facebook!!!!
if a lawyer and judge are facebook friends then they are automatically unable to work together.
Right now you ban the record of the friendship so the best of buds can work the same case.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
It seems fairly sensible to me that a judge shouldn't hear a case where one side is represented by a close friend, and should disqualify himself immediately. I'm sure there are plenty of judges. If they're friends on facebook this policy should still apply.
What if we made all legal professionals require that they befriend each other? does that seem more reasonable. It doesn't seem less reasonable though does it?
Whether or not they declare it in Facebook, judges and lawyers do "friend" in real life. You have to wonder how often a judge gives a lawyer a break because of this. What the Facebooking of friends does is lift the veil off this and make bias easier to spot. I would say it's a good thing, and what I'd really like to see is computers used for a deeper statistical analysis of courtroom decisions by judges with certain lawyers.
I'm sure the legal profession would hate the very idea of this, but these days judges seemed vastly disconnected from society. Every time I hear a judge screech "*My* court" or make a dumb ass decision it's apparent they've forgotten they're nothing more than pubic servants, albeit overpaid and wearing silly black capes and/or pompous wigs. This is theater only the very rich can afford to participate in. The whole legal system needs to be tossed out on it's ass and reinvented from scratch.
I fail to see a conflict of interest if the defense lawyer and the prosecutor are both "friends" of the judge.
Unless of course you start weighing how much each friend means to the judge, relatively speaking.
But that path leads to madness.
<Complete your profile by adding a signature!>
I recently had the privilege of serving as a juror in a DUI trial. I was quite pleased to discover that the Judge appeared unbiased, if not slightly more lenient towards the defense.
Also, the defense attorney poked so many holes in the prosecutor's argument: that the jury only had to deliberate for about ten minutes. I was absolutely shocked to learn that he was a public defender.
On top of that, the defendant was a black male from the city while the jury was entirely white suburbanites.
Going into the trail, I expected that the system was going to screw the defendant, but the Judge showed no bias, the Public Defender was competent, and the Jury presumed the defendant to be innocent. Now I feel like the media is full of shit.
This is a case of people interpreting the term "Friend" as used on Facebook too literally. I have hundreds of "friends" on Facebook. I don't have hundreds of real friends. What I have is hundreds of people whom I have met, perhaps quite briefly, through work, socialization, hobbies and happenstance.
They really are disconnected from society. Same with the police. If you've ever ready about or spoken to someone in a police academy, you will know that they encourage recruits to only hang out with other law enforcement officers, to only play in their sports leagues, et cetera; it indoctrinates a "us" vs "the public" mentality that follows the officer for the rest of their life. I don't know if that translates to the situation of the judges, but one can presume that an individual given such immense power, a sizeable paycheque, and so little accountability as a judge soon enough develops little connection to "everyone else."
How are the judges going to succeed in establishing their illegal money laundering operations in Russia if you start whittling away at their Mafia?
This reminds me of the record industry's attempts to past legislation to kick pirates off the internet without explaining how it will increase sales.
If there is some relationship between a lawyer and a judge, how does it help anyone to hide it? Hiding it doesn't make the relationship go away.
Congratulations. You have seen the system work the way it is supposed to ... once.
I asked a cop for directions once, and while he was rude to me, he didn't physically assault me, so I believe all these reports of tasers are false.
Tonight as I look out my window I see neither stars nor moon, so obviously all this talk of "space" is nonsense. After all, I've never been there, so it can't possibly be real.
Just because you haven't personally seen the train wrecks doesn't mean there haven't been any.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Use MySpace!
Yeah, and if Hitler were alive and on Facebook today
If Hitler was alive and on the internet we'd know how WW2 would have gone....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
If a judge and a lawyer that could appear before that judge are indeed friends, instead of being prohibited from disclosing that fact on Facebook, they should, instead, be mandated to disclose it. Why keep the friendship hidden? Hiding it works against proper ethics. I suspect the Florida Judicial Ethics Advisory Committee just doesn't understand what the internet really means ... which is about information and exposing the truth. So now someone is going to need to create a new web site to detail all those friendships between judges and lawyers, complete with Youtube links for the bedroom activities (OK, in the chambers).
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I've never before seen someone able to be that preachy while still not practicing what they breach. You post is also presumptive and pompous. Butthurt lawyer spotted.
I'm sure the legal profession would hate the very idea of this, but these days judges seemed vastly disconnected from society.
I'm not so sure I agree with that. There are plenty of pompous judges, but there are plenty of more realistic ones. I have to admit I've been in front of traffic court judges for speeding tickets and not a one has acted like a jerk to me. They all spoke with that "dude you broke the law, can you slow down please?" tone which was entirely deserved. I also hear of judges who are working very hard with lawyers and homeowners to modify or even vacate bad mortgages so people can keep their homes. That sounds very down to earth to me. I only once had to deal with a pompous lawyer, and that was in tenant landlord court, but the decision he came down to was reasonable and fair, he was just very busy in a large city court and he doesn't have time to waste with all on his docket. And finally I was called into jury duty once and while I wasn't selected for the final jury the judge was calm, polite, and measured in every one of his instructions and didn't act like he ruled over all of us. Of course, my experience is only anecdotal, but then again your experience seems even more anecdotal, or is based on decisions on extreme cases you hear at the national level. Whether or not those individual judges are pompous and disconnected could be debated, but I'm not sure they are representative of all judges.
Every time I hear a judge screech "*My* court" or make a dumb ass decision
Are you a lawyer, court reporter, or bailiff? How many times have you heard a judge truly yell this? How many decisions have you sat in on that you considered dumbass? I'm trying to gauge your experience here because as a common person myself, the only time I've heard a judge yell those words is in a movie or TV show. As for dumbass decisions, I can only say I've heard of a number of decisions at the national level, even at the supreme court, I strongly disagree with, but only because either the law wasn't clear and the case was incredibly difficult, or the case was politically motivated.
it's apparent they've forgotten they're nothing more than pubic servants :P. Please spell and grammar check while you rant.
Pardon me while I chuckle
albeit overpaid and wearing silly black capes and/or pompous wigs.
From your previous posts list, I can only guess you are from Australia, because you seem to know something about events there. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but if you are, it would help to qualify your comments. You would seem to be suffering from a disease my fellow american slashdotters commonly have which is "my-country-is-the-only-one-that-matter-itis". You couldn't possible be American since American judges don't wear wigs.
This is theater only the very rich can afford to participate in.
I agree but that's not the judge's fault, at least not in the US anyway, and I'm not sure how that would be the Judge's fault in any system that was borrowed from the British either. This is a topic for a completely different conversation.
The whole legal system needs to be tossed out on it's ass and reinvented from scratch.
In the US, aside from the money issue, I think the legal system is absolutely fantastic. It's built on law, order, procedure, and logic. It tries to guarentee everyone their day in court and tries it's best to come to the most reasonable conclusion in every trial, with as many checks and balances as possible. It's not perfect, and if you think any system never imprisons innocents or lets the guilty go free you are naive. It's also silly to blame judges for the laws they have to protect. The Law itself is made by politicians, it's for the judge to enforce that law, so if you are convicted for an unjust law, the lawmakers screwed you, not the judges. The US system not perfect, however, and could think of a few ways to improve it, but it does work. Sorry I can't speak for the Australian system but I hear it's relatively stable down under these days.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Is it just me or is Facebook the corniest thing on the net? If I had some friends, perhaps I'd feel differently.
This was my first thought too. Unfriending them on FB won't eliminate the conflict of interest, it will simply make it harder for an opposing lawyer to discover it.
I recon this is to prevent the disclosure of the good ol' boys network of this corrupt profession. It would be great, if I am charged with a crime, I can go to facebook and hire the best bud of the Judge I am facing, get a head start in my favor.
.
It's interesting commentary to me on social networking - this whole dust up appears to be from the use of the name "friend" to signify a virtual relationship. I wonder if this issue would have come up if the name were changed to something neutral like "node" or "connection". Using a name like that would at least avoid the superficial appearance of impropriety.
Corruption and arrests of judges in Florida as well as mayors, school boards and other public positions are unusually frequent.
In order to restore some sort of order Florida has every reason to be overly strict in requirements for judges.
I have lived in Florida for 54 years and this state needs federal intervention. Having a Bush for governor didn't help and now we have another idiot as governor seeking a senate position.
Thanks for a reasoned response. Now, back at ya:
> As for dumbass decisions, I can only say I've heard of a number of decisions at the national level, even at the supreme court, I strongly disagree with, but only because either the law wasn't clear and the case was incredibly difficult, or the case was politically motivated.
Like the Bush Florida thing? Hardly the court's proudest moment, but I was speaking from the Australian perspective.
If you would like an example of how far above everyone else these pompous asses consider themselves, check this out. Barristers got immunity from negligence, and this was gifted by the High Court itself. Their reasoning for granting their own profession (but no one else's, like say, Doctors) was that the public deserved "finality of decision." No nasty, unsightly having a barristers conduct challenged. The public just has to suck on it. No other profession gets away with that. One justice dissented, but the others were all for it. Politicians didn't make that law up. That was a finding of the High Court. If you want an example of pompous superiority, look no further:
http://www.hg.org/articles/article_670.html
As for bad decisions, yeah, I would hope most decisions are reasonable, but they make some incredibly reckless decisions and here once you're appointed a judge it's extremely rare to be removed. Read the papers here and pretty much every day you'll hear some howler decision. No in theory a bad judge can be removed, but in all my life I've only ever heard of 2 cases where that happened. Anyone else doing a bad job would be fired. Judges are 'above the law'. In theory this protects them from political interference, and they're trusted to look after themselves. Fox Henhouse.
> Every time I hear a judge screech "*My* court" or make a dumb ass decision Are you a lawyer, court reporter, or bailiff?
Here at least, when challenged, yes, they really say that and it speaks volumes about their attitude. It's not their court. It's the taxpayers' court. They're nothing more than any other public servant. And really I get tired of this guff that they "work hard and are underpaid." You can say that of nearly any profession: even the poor bastard stacking groceries at 2am. Truth is you could probably cut judges salary by 1/10th and the civil courts which are useless would still be clogged up, but since the general public seldom gets to use them so what?
> You couldn't possible be American since American judges don't wear wigs.
No, but they do have the black power capes. This, like the wigs, is supposed inspire respect and awe in you.
> I agree but that's not the judge's fault, at least not in the US anyway, and I'm not sure how that would be the Judge's fault in any system that was borrowed from the British either. This is a topic for a completely different conversation.
But highly relevant because judges and lawyers block changes that would interrupt in their gravy train. I've heard justice delayed is justice denied, but so is justice you can't afford. Here the civil courts spend a lot of time entertaining big companies in pissing contents, while Q.C.'s charge rates that are beyond ludicrous. Richard Ackland who writes for Fairfax is a lawyer and has had a lot of really bad stuff to say about the profession, amongst them the gentlemans club which hands out Q.C.'s for mates. It's just a license to print money, and it's hard to even get a lawyer to sit down with you to discuss a case. If they can see you can't pay their $300 an hour, they'll show you the door. The judicial system has become a money making enterprise which is has precious little to do with "justice".
I've been through the courts, and occasionally I have to engage lawyers for commercial disputes. This is where my contempt comes. The legal system is all about serving judges and lawyers. It's not about justice. Do you really think the legal system lives up to that idea? It really needs a major o
This is why the "Florida" tag is used on fark.com. Also, maybe Jeb and George Bush.
Plus there is a site called "news of the weird" (or something) published from Tampa, FL.
maybe the price of having the power of life and death over people (literally) [i]should[/i] be that you "drop out of society"... It'd solve a lot of corruption..
Do you really think lawyers and judges do not socialize at parties and other events often hosted by bar associations? Please grow up and develop the massive muscle in your skull called a brain.